tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post4635238648727924013..comments2024-01-04T07:05:27.381-06:00Comments on Immigration Talk with a Mexican American: Why the ANTIs are Losing the Argument!Deehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-41019860060654630192008-09-23T20:56:00.000-05:002008-09-23T20:56:00.000-05:00The MM organization is still alive and well. They...The MM organization is still alive and well. They have split up as different groups since its founding, but so what? The MM are only a small part of the anti movement across this country anyway.<BR/><BR/>The MM and the immigration issue have less media attention now only because this is an election year and our economy is going down the tubes. Also there is nothing go on in congress now dealing with illegal immigration.<BR/><BR/>We will see what happens with illegal immigraton when our new president takes office. They wouldn't be the first two politians to make empty promises to gain votes and they won't be the last. Right now they are merely pandering for votes. They don't have the power to make those kinds of decisons anyway only congress does. Right there, anyone with half a brain can see that they are both lying. Bush made the same promise but did he get it? NO! <BR/><BR/>Even if the MM organization goes totally defunct, it won't mean a thing. As I said, they are only a small activist movement. There are only a few hundred of them and millions more of us who want the same thing that they do but we go about it in a different way. No need to win anyone over. People with brains think and the stats are all out there and their lives are being impacted negatively. That is all they need to know to pick what side they will be on for the few fence sitters that are out there. We already have enough on our side to stop this insanity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-54071616428152832008-09-23T14:19:00.000-05:002008-09-23T14:19:00.000-05:00Dintn,My post primarily deals with two items: 1. T...Dintn,<BR/>My post primarily deals with two items: <BR/>1. The demise of the National MM movement (which no one disputes)<BR/>2. Responding to my ANTI friend´s survey and how he is not winning any new members.<BR/><BR/>I don´t disagree with you that the hard and true ANTIs are still out there and they maintain their arguments. You and Ultima and Pat are living proof. Liquid is more on your side than mine. AZ likes to debate and again is more on your side than mine, but fun to talk to as are all the ANTIs on here. <BR/><BR/>You also have lost the attention of the national media AND both candidates do not support your position. They both support Comprehensive Immigration Reform.<BR/><BR/>My point here however is the National MM movement is over and you are not winning over anyone knew with your current arguments. Thats all.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-48310421193419464832008-09-22T08:43:00.000-05:002008-09-22T08:43:00.000-05:00Dee, I also research immigration and use google an...Dee, I also research immigration and use google and I see absolutely no evidence to support your "losing" assumptions. In fact, quite the contrary.<BR/>"Pessimism spreads among Hispanics, survey finds"<BR/>http://www.latimes.com:80/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-immig19-2008sep19,0,1001572.story<BR/><BR/>Although this deals more with how their mood effects the elections, more and more emphasis in the press and internet blogs and articles are emphasising and reporting the horrible increases in crimes committed by illegals and less in blowing our horns.<BR/>Just read the comments. (anywhere) We are alive and well.<BR/><BR/>Gilcrest again? Please.DinTNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08108939973658632972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-33281820548840706842008-09-21T07:43:00.000-05:002008-09-21T07:43:00.000-05:00One wonders why one would be concerned about illeg...One wonders why one would be concerned about illegal aliens of any ethnicity being caught up in the raids. They have violated our immigration laws and the penalty for that is to be sought out and deported. Why would any loyal American have a problem with that? The employers are also caught up in those raids and when found to have knowlingly hired these illegal aliens are also subject to the penalties for that and should be. <BR/><BR/>It is mainly Hispanic citizens who are complaining about the raids. We aren't so stupid as to think that it has nothing to do with the fact that most illegal aliens are also Hispanics. They are lying through their teeth if they are trying to claim otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-60230872609271159792008-09-21T03:01:00.000-05:002008-09-21T03:01:00.000-05:00Actually, I struggle to come here now. I find that...Actually, I struggle to come here now. <BR/><BR/>I find that someone so immersed in party politics to be beyond saving.<BR/><BR/>This is why I am an independent..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04308481390438662506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-78133490953342980392008-09-20T21:14:00.000-05:002008-09-20T21:14:00.000-05:00Az,People tend to apply their own interpretations ...Az,<BR/>People tend to apply their own interpretations when they read a blog. You are free to do so. <BR/><BR/>Read my last reply to Ultima. That is my perspective. I am concerned for ALL caught up in the Raids and the crony owned Detention Centers and I believe they are wrong regardless which ethnicities are caught up in them.<BR/><BR/>Obviously you must like the discussion here, that´s why you keep coming back. I do like your participation here because you do remain civil and maybe someday I may change your mind on a few things.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Az said....<BR/>I can not speak for others here, but when you make every bust or immigration law out to be a race issue, I do feel as though you are being an extremist.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-85740993373840541462008-09-19T22:36:00.000-05:002008-09-19T22:36:00.000-05:00Dee said:You are right. I am very moderate in my v...Dee said:<BR/><I><BR/>You are right. I am very moderate in my views yet the ANTIs see me as an extremist.</I><BR/><BR/>I can not speak for others here, but when you make every bust or immigration law out to be a race issue, I do feel as though you are being an extremist..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04308481390438662506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-22685215835120035082008-09-19T19:56:00.000-05:002008-09-19T19:56:00.000-05:00FYI dee, Mexico isn't a war torn country and yet ...FYI dee, Mexico isn't a war torn country and yet 80% of those who came here and never had papers to do so, are Mexicans! Nice try, but no cigar. And another FYI, loyal Americans are not those sympathizing with these illegal aliens and complaining about the enforcement of our immigration laws.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-87981611232320718762008-09-19T19:21:00.000-05:002008-09-19T19:21:00.000-05:00Ulty,You forgot to add the words "to your liking" ...Ulty,<BR/>You forgot to add the words "to your liking" to the end of your last sentence.<BR/><BR/>As I have shared on countless occassions, I speak from my heart. My heart goes out to all those that come here from their war torn, ravaged countries seeking a better life for their children. They are often solicited, hired and exploited by egregious employers. 40% came here legally. Many have been here +5 years, hard working and non felonious. Many served our country admirably. Ethnicities are not only Latino but Asian, European, African and Middle Eastern. <BR/>I agree with secure borders, but our lack of enforcement and exploitation of workers for so much of our history weighs in on the equation.<BR/><BR/>I shared with you that your arguments will be endorsed by many Antis like yourself, but they will not fly for the rest of us loyal Americans. Until you change your argument and attempt to understand our point of view, you will not be gaining new members. In fact, they are dwindling. <BR/>IF you want to persuade anyone new, perhaps you should listen to my recommendations, but first, tell me the audiences you are attempting to reach then loosen up your mind set to hear the ideas I am sharing.<BR/><BR/><BR/>ultima said... <BR/>"especially when we honestly want to discuss it and you give us this type of feedback.)"<BR/><BR/>Of course, the availability of the paper post-dates the feedback. I admit the myopia of some folks and their odd concept of loyalty to America stirs strong feelings in me, especially when they have been unable to defend their point of view.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-30877963492190502752008-09-19T19:01:00.000-05:002008-09-19T19:01:00.000-05:00Ulty,My gosh!Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11!! ul...Ulty,<BR/>My gosh!<BR/>Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11!!<BR/><BR/> ultima said... <BR/>I suspect there were a few people who didn't like having the WTC and the USS Cole blown up either.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-7994295882550792342008-09-19T18:31:00.000-05:002008-09-19T18:31:00.000-05:00Yave,You are right. I am very moderate in my views...Yave,<BR/>You are right. I am very moderate in my views yet the ANTIs see me as an extremist. <BR/>When my consulting company supported another group, I used to rate the people in this discussion, 1 - 10. with "1" being the most Open Borders, Reconquista PROs and "10" being the most extreme KKK ANTIs. I always scored myself and those American Latinos like me as "3"s. <BR/>Here is how I rate others:<BR/>Ultima: 7 (a scholar)<BR/>Liquid: 7 (business owner)<BR/>Pat: 8<BR/><BR/>I think you are more open borders than my view so perhaps a 2 - 3 for you. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Yave said..<BR/>I don't see much persuasion going on on either side--if anything, we're solidifying previously-held views. The starting places are too far apart--the assumptions we are working from are drastically different. I'd say my starting assumptions are probably pretty different even from Dee's.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-27379658443824203352008-09-19T18:07:00.000-05:002008-09-19T18:07:00.000-05:00Yave,Thank you! And I hope you stay with us. I lik...Yave,<BR/>Thank you! And I hope you stay with us. I like brilliant people!!<BR/><BR/>I also give kudos to the very intelligent and thoughtful ANTIs who do want to debate and continue to be respectful and honor my rules of civility. Because they do I am able to keep an unmoderated forum and people can post real time. That is why we have so many lively debates. I am in hopes that some day we will develop some solutions to all of our country´s Immigration issues.<BR/><BR/>I think most of us would be friends except for this issue. (Even me and Pat)<BR/><BR/>Yave said....<BR/>Kudos to Dee for providing a forum where people are trading barbs, true, but are at least on speaking terms with one another.Deehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09583438645860375661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-29474301730126082152008-09-19T11:42:00.000-05:002008-09-19T11:42:00.000-05:00ariz indicated his viewpoint on migrant workers, a...ariz indicated his viewpoint on migrant workers, amnesty, the wall, and policy toward Mexico. <BR/><BR/>Most would have no difficulty with true migrants and work permits for them. The difficulty arises if they are not really migrants that leave when the job is done or when their permits expire and instead produce anchor babies and through them create a chain of immigrations.<BR/><BR/>Although as a general policy I believe many of the illegals must be deported to reinforce the measures taken at the border. The borders cannot be secured without a defense in depth based on vigorous internal enforcement. Having said that, I agree those who have been here for ten years deserve some special consideration, especially if they can show evidence of their assimilation and knowledge of English. I do have some concerns about whether these 10 year illegals should be rewarded and whether their jobs could be done by citizens if a living wage and a hiring preference was offered to them. Perhaps there is a role for local labor unions to play in deciding whether an illegal should be allowed to stay. The answer might be, "yes, if he joins the union -- otherwise no."<BR/><BR/>As I indicated above the wall and other improvements in infrastructure and staffing at the border will be ineffectual unless they are backed up a strong internal apprehension program with penalties for both employers and illegal employees. The absence of a policy that required the return of East Germans crossing the Berlin Wall is one of the main incentives that caused some to brave mine field and guard towers to escape to the West. The return or deportation of illegals therefore is essential to an effective secure borders effort.<BR/><BR/>I once thought that populist Obrador would have been a better choice for president of Mexico. This is an area where one has to be careful what he wishes for. We may want to get rid of the Oligarchs like Carlos Slim but we don't want a Hugo Chavez-like character running Mexico. We thought Castro was the real deal in Cuba when he defeated the despot Batista but that turned out differently than we expected. Still it would have been interesting if Bush had met with Obrador to discuss expectations for relations between the countries if Obrador was elected.ultimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13624967903736347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-47121315808889625062008-09-19T11:08:00.000-05:002008-09-19T11:08:00.000-05:00"especially when we honestly want to discuss it an..."especially when we honestly want to discuss it and you give us this type of feedback.)"<BR/><BR/>Of course, the availability of the paper post-dates the feedback. I admit the myopia of some folks and their odd concept of loyalty to America stirs strong feelings in me, especially when they have been unable to defend their point of view. More often they simply ignore the questions raised by others because, as Al Gore,they represent "an inconvenient truth".<BR/><BR/>I have frequently posted the pre-calculus idea of a limit (-- the limit of finite natural resources per capita as population grows without bounds is zero.) No one has refuted that truth nor suggested how far we should go down that road. I have advanced other arguments as well: the environment, the failures of assimilation, the changes in America that undermine assimilation, the trends in places like bankrupt California that support the notion of Mexico Norte, Official English, the rule of law, etc.<BR/><BR/>None of these have been adequately addressed by the pro-illegals nor have they even justified their name. Perhaps they like members of La Raza are finding that name a little uncomfortable because it implies an ethnocentric loyalty that is totally different than that of most Americans. Again, an inconvenient truth. <BR/><BR/>I said the following and I believe it. I am not omniscient but the signs are there for any analyst of current events and trends to see. To me their import is undeniable. If you don't accept this judgment, tell me why.<BR/> <BR/>"..And the worst thing about it, this otherwise intelligent woman doesn't even understand the damage she and her ILK are doing to this country. They have no interest in what is in the national interest."<BR/><BR/>I said... <BR/>"yave, you are SPOUTING NONSENSE if you think we americans don't know the extent of the overpopulation in the rest of the world. Global citizens are a figment of your immagination."<BR/><BR/>While yave is also clearly very bright and has made some very interesting posts, he should know that implying that Americans do not know about the size and character of the others on this planet, he is patronizing us. Although there may be some global citizens, perhaps like himself, that group must very small and have ulterior motives regarding U.S. immigration and economic policies.<BR/><BR/>We all have harsh words for each other from time to time. Hopefully these were more indicative of heartfelt beliefs rather than gratuitous slurs. I respect you and other pro-illegals but do not understand your position which to me is clearly not in the national interest. I have indicated many times the reasons why I think that. They may be tired old arguments but until they are laid to rest by reasoned discourse they will remain just as valid as the day they were first written.<BR/><BR/>I welcome comments on the idea of a limit and the impact on the environment of another doubling of our population. I welcome comments on why a nondiverse immigrant flow is a good idea rather than an idea that is counter to all the preachings about diversity.ultimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13624967903736347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-23185912717067133062008-09-19T10:32:00.000-05:002008-09-19T10:32:00.000-05:00"Looking at the best test tube of increased integr..."Looking at the best test tube of increased integration and a gradual softening of borders--the EU--the standard of living in the rich countries hasn't plummeted when poorer Eastern and Southern European countries entered the Union, as I expect your theory would predict. When Spain and Portugal entered decades ago after long subjugation and economic mismanagement by dictators, people didn't really know what would happen. Now they are much richer--Spain especially--and the economies of the wealthy countries didn't do so bad either. "<BR/><BR/>Who is to say that the progress in Spain and Portugal has anyhting to do with its entry into the EU? Perhaps, as you suggest, it was simply the elimination of the excessive control by dictators and a move more toward a Republican form of government. And certainly the resurgence of the world economy in the last 60 years as it recovered from a devastating war has to be considered a major factor as well.<BR/><BR/>I also take note of the fact that France and perhaps other countries have deported a number of people from the Eastern European countries who easily entered the country under the auspices of the EU rules.<BR/><BR/>Although one can readily admit the need for cheap labor in all countries, this cheap labor must ultimately adulterate the economies of these countries as more and more of these immigrants from poor countries arrive to dilute the culture and technological achievements of the receiving country.<BR/><BR/>How many Nobel prizes for chemistry, physics or medicine have been won by Latin Americans, Bangladeshis, or Turks. Culturally they are attuned to the investments and learning necessary to do so hence the dilutive effect and the huge importance of assimilation as opposed to the retention of the old ways and the old cultures of nonachievement. .ultimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13624967903736347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-27962719665137398042008-09-19T10:20:00.000-05:002008-09-19T10:20:00.000-05:00"Contrary to your assertion, the global economy is..."Contrary to your assertion, the global economy is not a zero sum game, as any competent economist will tell you."<BR/><BR/>Are you one of them. Who cares what the purveyors of the dismal quasi-science have to offer. They are wrong more often than they are right.<BR/><BR/>If you watched the Olympics opening ceremony, you would have taken note of the huge expenditure China was able to make because of all the money it has drained from the U.S. Treasury and the vast amount of our debt China owns. That's strong evidence of the zero sum game. Perhaps the game is imperfect but certainly the idea of making something out of nothing is not very credible.<BR/><BR/>In some cases I can see a flaw in the zero sum game concept. For example, the government cannot give to the people what it does not first take from them. And there is serious leakage in the process as high paid bureaucrats take a slice of the pie before they give it back to the people.ultimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13624967903736347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-29064227040714969672008-09-19T10:07:00.001-05:002008-09-19T10:07:00.001-05:00"I just don't think people like having their count..."I just don't think people like having their countries invaded very much."<BR/><BR/>I suspect there were a few people who didn't like having the WTC and the USS Cole blown up either.ultimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13624967903736347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-81223035827693983082008-09-19T10:07:00.000-05:002008-09-19T10:07:00.000-05:00"I just don't think people like having their count..."I just don't think people like having their countries invaded very much."<BR/><BR/>I suspect there were a few people who didn't like having the WTC and the USS Cole blown up either.ultimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13624967903736347171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-21879654666178264212008-09-19T01:22:00.000-05:002008-09-19T01:22:00.000-05:00Oh, so now we bring up Iraq.....Yave, most here mi...Oh, so now we bring up Iraq.....<BR/><BR/>Yave, most here might have remembered who I am, and what I have done. <BR/><BR/>I was in the Corps, served 2 tours in Afghanistan, and 3 in Iraq as a EOD specialist. <BR/><BR/>On a personal level, I felt that going into Iraq was not justified to me. But allow me to use a metaphor that I previously published here before :<A HREF="http://immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com/2008/09/changes-only-time-can-change-me-but-you.html" REL="nofollow">http://immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com/2008/09/changes-only-time-can-change-me-but-you.html</A><BR/><BR/>We screwed up. I understand that.<BR/>But, if you take your neighbor's car for a joy ride, smash into a fence, you do not just walk away and act like it did not happen. You have to fix the car,fix the fence and amend your relationship with all parties involved. It is easy to "cut and run" when things go bad.<BR/>Nothing meaningful in this world ever came from taking the path of least resistance. <BR/><BR/>BTW, "cut and run" was a saying long before Bush took office..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04308481390438662506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-77383873394943514532008-09-19T01:15:00.000-05:002008-09-19T01:15:00.000-05:00I use the term "migrant worker permits" loosely. H...I use the term "migrant worker permits" loosely. Honestly, I do not know the difference between H2a or H2b visas. I know it has something to do with time and skill, and that's all. <BR/><BR/>As far as "cumbersome" to employers, an employment-finding-system similar to what the Government enacted in the great depression, although on a continental scale, should suffice. If we could do it in the 30's, why do have a problem with it now? If it is cumbersome to employers it is only because no one wants to take the time. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and I'll probably surprise you from time to time. I am one of those horrible independent moderates everyone hates..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04308481390438662506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-47387337823064357092008-09-18T23:35:00.000-05:002008-09-18T23:35:00.000-05:00It shouldn't say to "any degree", It should have s...It shouldn't say to "any degree", It should have said "to the degree you are wanting, One World, One Nation." There will always be countries that don't agree with the collective and will do as the US has done, its own thing with little to no penalties. There's always that other side of the coin, heads vs. tails.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-83419070284431308952008-09-18T23:26:00.000-05:002008-09-18T23:26:00.000-05:00"I opposed the war from the start and it took awhi..."I opposed the war from the start and it took awhile, but most Americans have come to agree with my position. Lord knows how long we'll be there, or how long we'll be in Afghanistan, which the public has not yet turned against but will after a few more years of casualties and stalled progress. Call me a defeatist, but I just don't think people like having their countries invaded very much."<BR/><BR/>You see, we agree, I, too, opposed the war in the beginning, however I have accepted the fact that we are there and need to finish Iraq before leaving, meaning working with the Iraqi Government and being assured they are able to accept the responsibility of their people. I believe we will always be there, meaning we will have troops stationed there such as we have had throughout Europe and Asia. Afghanistan has been a diplomatic attempt and has yet to return much in results.<BR/><BR/>I am a former soldier, was in GW1 and understand what this is about. Your right about my article, but the part I printed made my point, "The lack of a sense of moral clarity diminished the UN's moral authority." The tangent to the Iraq War was my way of showing that even though you believe 'International Diplomacy' will work to any degree, is farcical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-2278902349664947302008-09-18T22:59:00.000-05:002008-09-18T22:59:00.000-05:00It would be tough for the UN to penalize the U.S. ...It would be tough for the UN to penalize the U.S. when the U.S. is one of the five countries with veto power of any sanctions with teeth. By tough, I mean impossible. <BR/><BR/>As far as the Iraq War goes, I do believe my version of reality is the only true one--that is kind of what "reality" means. I opposed the war from the start and it took awhile, but most Americans have come to agree with my position. Lord knows how long we'll be there, or how long we'll be in Afghanistan, which the public has not yet turned against but will after a few more years of casualties and stalled progress. Call me a defeatist, but I just don't think people like having their countries invaded very much. <BR/><BR/>My read of the article you cited is that it supports my view more than the Bush administration's. Also, it was written in 2004, and I wonder what the author thinks now in 2008. The UN, in my view, has come out looking a lot better on the Iraq War than the U.S. since 2004.yavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01434935209549959812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-17309465816154606392008-09-18T22:43:00.000-05:002008-09-18T22:43:00.000-05:00"As far as the events leading to the Iraq War, I h..."As far as the events leading to the Iraq War, I had thought that the Bush administration's version of things had been pretty thoroughly discredited by now, but I guess that's not the case if you only get your news from Fox, talk radio, and Michelle Malkin. If you take my advice, you'll stick to immigration--defending the Iraq War is not going to be a winner. At least not in the reality based world."<BR/><BR/><BR/>There's that purported assumption thing again. Why do you become so defensive and make these ignorant statements? Your version of reality is the only true one?? You don't really believe that due you?<BR/><BR/>I have read the Bush Doctrine, I have read the UN laws, you, being a graduate from law school, should know that laws are about interpretation of what is written. The UN has done nothing to the US in way of sanctions or any penalties. That would show compliance in my book, would it not?<BR/><BR/>http://update.unu.edu/archive/issue30_2.htm<BR/><BR/>The United Nations is not congenitally anti-American. In 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, it strongly supported the war to eject the Iraqis.<BR/><BR/>Last year the crisis was seen to be the result of US belligerence, not Iraqi aggression. If the Security Council had authorised war, it would have been seen to have caved in to American threats and bribes. People look to the UN to stop war, not wage one.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes war will be necessary. The will to wage war will weaken if force is used recklessly, unwisely and prematurely. <BR/><BR/>The Iraq war ruptured US relations with traditional allies and friends of long standing and proven reliability; damaged the three great institutions of the last half-century - the European Union, NATO and the UN - to have overseen peace and prosperity; squandered the spontaneous and universal goodwill for the US after September 11, incited fanatical hatred of US policy in parts of the world instead; and reintroduced deep domestic divisions.<BR/><BR/>Legitimacy is the conceptual rod that connects power to authority. On Iraq, the US and the UN provoked a legitimacy crisis about each other: of American power and UN authority.<BR/><BR/>The certainty of moral clarity put the Administration on a course that seriously eroded its moral authority for the exercise of US power in the world. The lack of a sense of moral clarity diminished the UN's moral authority.<BR/><BR/>The UN is the arena for collective action, not a forum where nations that are unable to do anything individually get together to decide that nothing can be done collectively. <BR/><BR/>The UN and the US share an interest in isolating and defeating terrorism, not each other; in containing the threat of weapons of mass destruction; and in promoting democracy, human rights and the rule of law in Iraq, the Middle East and the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5548695401579410439.post-13353844074963886802008-09-18T22:28:00.000-05:002008-09-18T22:28:00.000-05:00Ultima, in response to your comments on U.S. stand...Ultima, in response to your comments on U.S. standards of living being dragged down by globalization, again, I say history has not supported that view. The increased integration of NAFTA didn't work out so great for poor Mexican farmers, but it certainly didn't cause the kind of economic disaster in the U.S. that Ross Perot was predicting. That great sucking sound never quite materialized--as I recall, the years after 1994 under Clinton were pretty good for the U.S. economy. <BR/><BR/>Looking at the best test tube of increased integration and a gradual softening of borders--the EU--the standard of living in the rich countries hasn't plummeted when poorer Eastern and Southern European countries entered the Union, as I expect your theory would predict. When Spain and Portugal entered decades ago after long subjugation and economic mismanagement by dictators, people didn't really know what would happen. Now they are much richer--Spain especially--and the economies of the wealthy countries didn't do so bad either. Contrary to your assertion, the global economy is not a zero sum game, as any competent economist will tell you. <BR/><BR/>As far as the events leading to the Iraq War, I had thought that the Bush administration's version of things had been pretty thoroughly discredited by now, but I guess that's not the case if you only get your news from Fox, talk radio, and Michelle Malkin. If you take my advice, you'll stick to immigration--defending the Iraq War is not going to be a winner. At least not in the reality based world.yavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01434935209549959812noreply@blogger.com