GM, Ford and Chrysler announce plans to "buyout" their ENTIRE U.S. hourly workforce so they may hire employees at half the current hourly rate. This is for Economic reasons and has nothing to do with Illegal Immigration.As PRO reporters continue to highlight the Nation´s Economic News, the ANTIs are finally understanding our nation´s lower wages are due to Economic/Business issues and the root cause is NOT Illegal Immigration.
CNN Reports:
GM offers buyouts to 74,000
Auto giant aims to replace much of U.S. workforce with lower-paid new hires - dangles $140,000 buyouts to UAW members to stem North American losses.
Auto giant aims to replace much of U.S. workforce with lower-paid new hires - dangles $140,000 buyouts to UAW members to stem North American losses.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
February 12 2008: 10:04 AM EST
February 12 2008: 10:04 AM EST
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- In an effort to shave ongoing losses despite strong global auto sales, General Motors offered lucrative buyouts to 74,000 employees - its entire U.S. hourly workforce.
The nation's largest automaker reported the latest round of buyouts as it reported another loss on its core auto operations in the quarter, as improved performance in some overseas markets was balanced out by a rising loss at its North American plants. The company was helped by a tax benefit in the fourth quarter and a gain on sales of some assets. But problems with the GMAC finance unit and large charges taken in the third quarter related to other tax issues left GM with a company record $38.7 billion net loss for 2007.
The nation's largest automaker reported the latest round of buyouts as it reported another loss on its core auto operations in the quarter, as improved performance in some overseas markets was balanced out by a rising loss at its North American plants. The company was helped by a tax benefit in the fourth quarter and a gain on sales of some assets. But problems with the GMAC finance unit and large charges taken in the third quarter related to other tax issues left GM with a company record $38.7 billion net loss for 2007.
...the latest range of offers to the remaining 74,000 GM workers represented by the United Auto Workers union is designed to allow the company to save money by paying new workers significantly less in pay and benefits than its current workforce, rather than lead to the large reduction in staffing sought in previous buyout packages. GM spokesman Dan Flores said the company had no announced target for headcount reduction this time. "We certainly expect to be doing hiring as a result of this package," he said.
Those who leave and agree to sever all ties with the company - including giving up lucrative pension and health care coverage - will receive a lump sum of $140,000 if they have 10 years of service, or $70,000 for those with less than 10 years.
"We've worked with our UAW partners to ensure our employees have a variety of attractive options to consider," GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement. "The special attrition program is an important initiative that will help us transform the workforce." Ford and Chrysler also have the provision in their new contracts to pay new hires less in salary and benefits, but their workforces are not nearly as old as the UAW membership at GM, so they may end up seeing less turnover in their hourly staff. Ford has its own buyout offer out to all its remaining 54,000 hourly U.S. workers. The proposal was announced last month when the company reported a fourth-quarter loss. Privately-owned Chrysler has offered buyout packages to hourly employees at targeted plants, but has not make a companywide offer.
"We've worked with our UAW partners to ensure our employees have a variety of attractive options to consider," GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement. "The special attrition program is an important initiative that will help us transform the workforce." Ford and Chrysler also have the provision in their new contracts to pay new hires less in salary and benefits, but their workforces are not nearly as old as the UAW membership at GM, so they may end up seeing less turnover in their hourly staff. Ford has its own buyout offer out to all its remaining 54,000 hourly U.S. workers. The proposal was announced last month when the company reported a fourth-quarter loss. Privately-owned Chrysler has offered buyout packages to hourly employees at targeted plants, but has not make a companywide offer.
What utter BS, dee! Now you are going to put words into the anti's mouths? What anti's said they no longer believe that illegal aliens lower wages?
ReplyDeleteYou keep using GM as the sole example of some other reasons for a company to lower wages and you use it as a blanket statement that illegals are not another reason for wages being lowered in other companies? GM probably doesn't even hire illegals. Not all companies are dishonest you know.
You keep getting more desperate by the day to take any blame off the illegals for lowering wages with the truth staring you right in the face. For every GM story you can come up with, we anti's can come up with dozens of stories showing where illegals have lowered wages for Americans.
Pat,
ReplyDeleteNot just GM. Look at the article. It is GM, Ford and Chrysler. All of the Auto Plants throughout the U.S.
As stated. They are cutting U.S. wages in half throughout the auto industry in the U.S. and this has NOTHING to do with illegal immigration.
At least MOST other ANTIs understand this.
They are all auto industries. They probably don't hire illegals. What part of that don't you understand? Can you say the same for other types of companies? There are many other types of businesses who do hire illegals and in those the wages have fallen due to illegal aliens. Are you just being dense today or desperate again as usual?
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, a few years ago, the Meat Packing industry, in order to survive, consolidated, closed plants, and outsourced cutting wages in half. Now, many ANTIs attempt to blame these cut in wages on illegal immigrants.
ReplyDeleteIn reality, this is about these businesses going Global, Free Trade, etc. That is why wages were cut.
You need to understand the ROOT CAUSE.
Go ahead and stay in continued deeeeeeeeeeeeeenial, dee. While I admit that businesses have down sized and outsourced jobs in some cases, illegal aliens have lowered wages in many blue collar jobs. Too bad you aren't big enough to admit that part of the plight of the American worker too.
ReplyDeletePat,
ReplyDeleteThe Global Economy is the ROOT CAUSE. Outsourcing, Contractors who hire non union and illegal immigrants are but a result of the ROOT CAUSE.
Here. Have some more of this. It might help you feel better.
We always did understand that it is about the economy and business. You overlooked the fact that GM lost money in the last quarter. It doesn't make much sense to indulge in useless altruism while you are going bankrupt. It's not just the economy and business, it's competition from Japanese and other auto manufacturers who apparently enjoy a cheaper labor contract.
ReplyDeleteI believe in a strong middle class with middle class wages and benefits but I also believe in a level playing field and since in a free society there is little the government can and should do about this, it is up to GM and other companies to do whatever is necessary to competitive. It serves no one's interests for GM to go belly up.
Who cares what the root cause is? Hiring illegals is against the law. Being in this country illegally is against the law. I'm not interested in "root cause", I am only interested in holding all guilty parties accountable. I don't operate under excuses or blame only the hard cold facts of the law.
ReplyDeleteBank robbers steal because they want or need the money aka "root cause" but so what? Put their behinds in jail as our laws demand! Sounds like you are making excuses again for illegal aliens and those who enable and exploit them.
Dee
ReplyDeleteyou are ignorant of economics.
If you Dee personally wanted to hire a person to clean your house, you could go to the part of your neighborhood filled with illegal immigrants and get an illegal immigrant to clean your house for $8 an hour.
Try this experiment Dee - it works!
Ok - now let's imagine your city immitates Arizona and boots out all the illegals.
Now you need your house cleaned -
you Dee will walk around your city talking to people who are legally in the US. Think you will find someone willing to do it for $8 - hell no . you will offer it for $10 and they will laugh at you - you will keep looking around and eventually find someone willing to do it for $13 an hour and not a penny less.
You Dee will be raising wages not due to goodness of your heart but due to the labor market.
Now let's go back - let's pretend you Dee are paying an illegal $8 an hour today to clean your house.
Next week, a thousand more illegals sneak in to the USA and all settle in your neighborhood. They are hanging around the streetcorners looking for work.
You Dee realize that due to this influx you can hire someone for $3 an hour to clean your house so you switch from paying $8 to paying $3
Dee, no big bad companies involved here , just you , an individual paying what you have to pay to get the job done.
new unskilled immmigrant workers in and of themselves push down the wages. Certainly you Dee would be able to pay much lower wages if you could attract a thousand more illegals to your neighborhood.
Supply and Demand.
U.S. farmers short on migrant workers move to Mexico
ReplyDeleteAs well as tapping into an abundant source of cheap labor in Mexico, U.S. growers can avoid expensive environmental regulations demanded by states like California.
“We are basically being regulated out of business,” said farmer Steve Scaroni, who moved 20 percent of his operations to Mexico's central state of Guanajuato in 2006.
Cox said he needed costly air quality permits to burn his asparagus fields in Brawley but in Mexico few eyebrows are raised when he sets fire to his fields to clean them.
“In Mexico they said, 'Permits? What? You just throw a match,'” he said.
Most workers on Cox's Mexicali farm earn around $10 a day instead of the $10 an hour they could earn doing the same job north of the border. But most say they prefer being near home.
This is just another perspective, though this is more in line with "illegal labor" and its issues than what Dee uses as a reference.
Dee said...
ReplyDeleteThe Global Economy is the ROOT CAUSE. Outsourcing, Contractors who hire non union and illegal immigrants are but a result of the ROOT CAUSE.
So, I'll ask you again, Dee, are you a globalist or a nationalist?
Another root cause, at least to some extent, is Global Warming, look to my previous post.
Ulty and Liquid,
ReplyDeleteThank you for acknowledging the Root Cause for wage decreases is the economy. So many blogs indicate otherwise (as does Anon).
Even Pat acknowledges this now although he said who cares.
Liquid, you ask if I am a Nationalist or a Globalist. Do we have a choice? Preferencing anything other than the inevitable Global Economy would be like trying to stop a runaway train.
I just don´t know what is going to happen next.
If businesses have no other choice to stay in business than to cut wages in half then what do we do? Someone has to build cars and do the AgJobs. People either have to learn to live with half their wages or go to college and move to where the Global Economy jobs are. Does that mean college grads deserts Michigan and those that stay move to Trailer Parks? Does this mean we move all our farms to Mexico? I don´t have a clue.
My husband and I just talked about this. He says when we were young we lived on a much lower income. Then, we didn´t have cell phones, PCs, Cable, TVs, big house, etc.
ReplyDeleteHe said people will just have to get used to not having all the toys.
I wonder what people, especially we Boomers, will do.
Liquid,
ReplyDeleteGood article.
California farm owners moving their farms to Mexico so they have sufficient AgWorkers will probably increase in the years ahead.
The comment in the article "U.S. workers do not want strenuous farm jobs" is very true. We´ve seen this especially in Michigan and in other states too.
Dee said...
ReplyDeleteUlty and Liquid,
Thank you for acknowledging the Root Cause for wage decreases is the economy.
Economics of manufacturing
Again, this is only in some sectors, not all of the sectors. The services sectors, construction, food, hospitality, etc., are much different then most of the manufacturing sector, auto, textile, etc. The service sectors are national sectors, while the manufacturing sector is a global sector.
example:
The government has allowed other auto manufacturers from outside the USA build plants in the USA which have become direct competition to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. The imports are no longer having to pay import fees, they are more efficient at the build process, etc. Look at China right now, products from China to here have low import fees, but going the other way, American made products to China have export fees from the USA + import fees in China. On a global economy, how on earth can we compete? Our American companies are going out of business, and the USA is being bought up (sold out from underneath by our politicians) by foreign owned countries and companies. Globalization is killing the USA.
Dee said...
ReplyDeleteLiquid,
Good article.
California farm owners moving their farms to Mexico so they have sufficient AgWorkers will probably increase in the years ahead.
Its been increasing yearly for some time already, it will become even more so with the 'Global Warming' measures that may soon be put in place. The Terminator is pushing it here in CA. This will be the death of our conglomerate farmers.
The comment in the article "U.S. workers do not want strenuous farm jobs" is very true. We´ve seen this especially in Michigan and in other states too.
There are numerous legal residents and citizens still doing this work. Each year the numbers of them may be declining, but your agreeing with that broad statement is simple ignorance.
"Ulty and Liquid,
ReplyDeleteThank you for acknowledging the Root Cause for wage decreases is the economy."
I understand from the news that GM lost $38-$39 billion last quarter or last year, the largest loss for any U.S. auto maker in history. What would you do if you were the GM CEO?
Dee
ReplyDeleteyou haven't responded yet to the post that says that you Dee as an employer would pay less to get your house cleaned if there were plenty of illegals around.
In fact, if you could persuade ten thousand illegals to move to your town and live on your street, you could presumably hire one of them to clean your house for a dollar an hour
the wages you would pay to get your house cleaned are dependent on the number of illegals in your neighborhood.
more illegals means that us citizen house claners make lower wages
Arizona sees signs of flight by immigrants
ReplyDelete" Jobs in the construction industry, a major employer of immigrants, are growing scarce, declining 8.6 percent in December compared with the previous year.
Juan Leon, a construction subcontractor and the husband of Elizabeth Leon, the day care worker, said illegal immigrants had made it harder for legal residents like him to find work. Companies that employ them can bid much lower on projects than he can because they pay workers much less, Leon said.
"I hate to see families torn apart," he said of the current flight, "but there is no money to be made sometimes, because some contractors who employ illegal workers can do the job dirt cheap." Dawn McLaren, an economist at Arizona State University in Tempe who studies the state's economic and migration trends, said it was likely that lack of work is forcing people to move, probably to nearby states. But McLaren also theorized that the slowing economy had caused a reduction in the flow of new immigrants over the border.
....
"It's a highly networked community," she said of border crossers. "It costs a lot to get here, and they generally have a job lined up here. People say, 'We need people on the crew.' And they tell friends and relatives to come over." A persistent decline in the immigrant population could damage the overall Arizona economy, McLaren said. A study by the Pew Hispanic Center released in January said illegal workers made up close to 11 percent of the state's work force of 2.9 million people in 2006, double the national estimate."
Liquid
ReplyDeletethanks for pointing out that latino construction workers are just as hurt by the illegals as anglo construction workers are.
I predict more latino us citizens will join the minutemen
plenty of loyal patriotic latinos that care about america -
thank god that almost all legal immigrants to america eventually become loyal to the usa and patriotic towards the usa. There is almost no group that has come legally to the usa in the past 200 years that hasn't assimilated in to loyalty to the usa.
Dee
ReplyDeleteyou haven't responded to the post about supply and demand for labor
Dee, if you hire people to clean your house, the wages you need to pay to those cleaners are caused by the number of those workers hanging around your street hungry for work
if you Dee could arrange it to have thousands of illegals on your block, you could get your house cleaned super cheap.
if however there is one us citizen who likes to clean houses and that us citizen gets your state to pass a law like arizona's law, then there is a desperate shortage of housecleaners and that one housecleaner can negotiate a very high price to clean your house.
Dee, you as a homeowner have a selfish incentive to bring as many illegals to your hood as possible - it helps you the employer
Dee
ReplyDeleteWhat's going on - are you still doing the math in your head
I have put on the table the fact that you Dee, as an employer, have a self interest in getting thousands of illegals to move to your area so that you can lower the wages that you pay to the person that cleans your house.
no big corporations here . no globalization. nothing complicated
just a good hardworking american citizen in your hood who is earning s living wage cleaning houses, and then you Dee bring in thousands of illegals and you Dee lower the wages that you pay for people to clean your house.
do the math dee. More illegals hanging out on your block looking for work means *YOU* lower the wages
look in the mirror. poor immigrants push down wages. You know it, and hell you even benefit from it when you hire someone to clean your house -
Wow Dee maybee the same thing applies to the guy who mows your lawn.
ReplyDeletehe is earnings a living wage, saving money to educate his kids and move up in the world.
Then you import thousands of illegals to hour hood - illegals offer to mow your lawn cheaper - you fire the american citizen and hire the illegal for low wages
again, no big bad corporation involved - just you Dee -
this is how life works. the corporations don't force you Dee or any other homeowner in your hood to pay these folks any high or low ammt. it is determined by the number of illegals
the corporations don't have anything to do with the above example. look in the mirror - you Dee are determining the wage levels for the maids and people who clean lawns. No corporations involved. You Dee - it's all you
anon, I think dee has lost interest in her blog. She doesn't even post much in here anymore. Her arguments have been shredded to pieces so many times that she is probably embarrassed. Notice that she doesn't have hardly and pro's in here to defend her either. I think she is more interested in posting in other forums where there is more of a mix of anti's and pro's or more pro's so she doesn't feel so all alone.
ReplyDeleteFair enough
ReplyDeleteI have lost interest as well.
I think this debate is pretty much over. I just read that 47% of the hispanic voters in Arizona voted in favor of the laws limiting illegal immigration.
I guess they realize that immigration of unskilled people hurts hispanic citizens more than any other group, since they compete for jobs with the new immigrants.
Patriot, I suspect that you and i have very different views on most subjects.
I want to see a severe labor shortage that will drive up the wages of the people in the US with the lowest skills, the lowest educations. I believe in a USA in which people who lack the inherent ability to graduate from high school can work hard and play by the rules and live a middle class life.
I admire Cesar Chavez, and he spent his life saying the same thing that i say - every single unskilled immigrant pushes down the wages of the unskilled citizens. Anyone who looks up Cesar on Wikipedia will know that he spent his life fighting unskilled immigration and would be doing so today if he were alive.
Patriot, I don't think most antis admire Cesar the way i do, and I don't think he would be comfortable socializing with most antis. But i do feel strongly that if Cesar were alive he would vote for a kind compassionate deportation of every single undocumented person in the USA. He was not a phd in economics like George Borjas but Cesar knew supply and demand.
I think as the wages for unskilled hispanic citizens in Phoenix continue to rise as a result of the new law tht word will go out and unskilled hispanic citizens will join with unskilled citizens of all colors to push for the Arizona laws to be rolled out all over the usa
anon, I don't see where our views are much different. I also believe that illegal aliens drive down wages for poor and less educated Americans in this country.
ReplyDeleteYou never quite explained what "compassionate deportation" means to you. My idea of compassion is the SAVE ACT. It will take 4 years to complete the removal of illegal aliens off of employer's payrolls and they will voluntarily go back to their homelands without a job.
Liquid,
ReplyDeleteIgnorance on my part? As Chris Matthews would say, "Hah!"
Not only do I conduct research, I talk to real people. I called the farm owners daughter and they still have majority migrant workers work their AgJobs. They try and try to entice American locals, but they don´t want to do the job.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI answered your question a while ago.
I do my own housework. I don´t care if there are legal or illegal people to do it for free. I prefer to clean my own house and cook for my family. period.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteDo you know why I cook for my family?
My son and I have this routine we do almost every day. He will say, "Mom, why is the food you cook so good?" I always answer, "Because all of the food I make for you is made with pure Love!"
It is so true!!
Of course, I also sing for my babies and g-babies. Remember the song that starts ... "My Love..." I always sing that when my baby boy comes in the room.
aaahhh....my sons, my best accomplishments in life!
Liquid,
ReplyDeleteI still say AZ and OK are good test cases. With these restrictionist laws in place this year, over time, we will have an opportunity to study the impact, positive or negative. Prof B. has recommended a study be completed. I agree. I hope we will get real factual statistics from all of this.
Pat,
ReplyDeletefyi
On Monday or Tuesday this week, I got a virus and that pesky thing has screwed up my mail. I used my mail alerts to notify when one of you posted to my blog, but with no mail alerts I didn´t realize there were so many posts on this particular blog.
So now I am here, catching up.
I told you before Pat. You cannot get rid of me so easily. I know you and Anon (who wants to take over my site) would love for me to go, but alas, I am here to stay. You must miss me. My mail has only been screwed up a coupla days.
BTW, you were right in one regard. When I thought I wasn´t getting any mail, I was posting in other forums. I have been playing in HB, Borjas, gaining new PRO blog partners and talking to some friends of the candidates. My new favorite commenting site is Huffington Post, but only political stuff, not Immigration news.
I still am having trouble with my mail. But hopefully it is better. Who knows. We will see. I will just check directly in case I get lonely for your emails.
dee, you disinterest in your own blog starting showing awhile back, not just this week. I can understand it though as there is only one person (your twin...yikes!) that agrees with you in here.
ReplyDeleteYour arguments have been shredded over and over. It has got to be embarrassing after awhile. Sad that you haven't seen the light after all the strong arguments of us anti's in here. I doubt you ever will because blood is thicker than water to you.
Poor Pat.
ReplyDeleteI do feel sad for you.
If you are unhappy here, feel free to visit other blogs, dear.
dee, don't flatter yourself. Your blog doesn't make me unhappy, it makes me laugh at such utter stupidity.
ReplyDeletePat
ReplyDeleteDee doesn't even take her own arguments seriously anymore.
She knows her grandchildren and children will get crowded schools and hospitals due to unskilled immigration
she is just pushing your buttons for entertainment.
Give her a little time, she will latch on to some other crazy cause - like she will become a vegan or something
she is just taking outlandish positions to tweak you
The facts are, anywhere restrictionist laws are imposed, the economy is impacted negatively. Sales revenues are lost. Immigrants, legal and illegal, leave. Then those locations move to rescind the restrictionist laws. It is happening in Oklahoma. It is happening in AZ. All for America to see.
ReplyDeleteI am watching the Rosa Parks story now. People told here to obey the rule of law, but she said the law was wrong and she challenged it.
ReplyDeleteThe same thing is happening now with these restrictionist laws.
Dee said...
ReplyDeleteThe facts are, anywhere restrictionist laws are imposed, the economy is impacted negatively. Sales revenues are lost. Immigrants, legal and illegal, leave. Then those locations move to rescind the restrictionist laws. It is happening in Oklahoma. It is happening in AZ. All for America to see.
Please Dee, explain California's economy and why its $14B in the hole, and there are no restrictionist laws. Why is the economy tanking here in California?
Liquid:
ReplyDeleteTwo Words.
Global Economy.
Lupita would say our spending habits, the war, borrowing from China, etc. etc.
Housing Bubble Burst.
ReplyDeleteGreedy Contractors.
Greedy Mortgage Companies.
Greedy Consumers living beyond their means in McMansions- Interest Only Loans.
IT Bubble bursting. Silicon Valley.
The seditionist Hispanic citizens and their illegal countrerparts trying to ride on the coatails of the Civil Rights Era which dealt with Black citizens not illegal aliens is a joke!
ReplyDeleteOur country's economical success should never be measured or advocated by it's attainment through violation of our laws. Why are we even having such a discussion?
Riding the coat tails?
ReplyDeleteBlacks and Hispanics were there, together, partnering in the Civil Rights Movement.
Me and mine were there.
What is so difficult for YOU to understand Pat?
Oh, I remember.
YOU were on THE OTHER SIDE!!!
dee, don't you even try to insuate that I was in agreement with Black citizens being treated as second class citizens during the Civil Rights Era!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think that ALL citizens should be treated equally and I always have! So stick your nasty insults up where the sun doesn't shine! Do you always go around accusing people of things and you don't even know them?
ReplyDeleteJust because some Hispanics (and so did some Whites) may have marched with the Blacks during the Civil Rights Era, does not give them the right to advocate an illegal invasion of our country by their own ethnic kind. ILLEGALS ARE NOT CITIZENS!
Don't you EVER insult me that way again. I happen to have the highest regard for Blacks in this country and you had no right to accuse me of "being on the other side". I never was! Of course you won't be woman enough to apologize though will you?
Well if you say you are on the side of Equal Rights, Equal Freedoms for all, that is a good sign for you. Maybe there is hope for you yet.
ReplyDeleteIve always said you need to put away your hate and anger and look to the true partnerships and alliances with our great multi cultural society.
I think Obama will join us all, move towards Comprehensive Immigration Reform, so we as a nation can join together for a better tomorrow.
I liked when Obama said, we have to stop scape goating and look towards Comprehensive Immigration Reform.
ReplyDeleteHope for me yet? WTH does that mean? You are the one who is lost in a hopeless abyss of ethnocentricism favoring illegal aliens over citizens.
ReplyDeleteEvery American has the right to be angry about the illegal alien situation in our country. How can you even question the validity of that emotion under those circumstances? We aren't multi-cultural, we are many into one with some holding unto their minority culture in this country rather than assimilating. Knock off your BS. We aren't anymore multi-culteral per se than Mexico is. We have our own identity. You just can't stand the dominant culture of this country because it isn't yours. Why don't you just admit it?
I'll go into alliance with anyone no matter what race they are just as long as they support the rule of law. I will not join up with seditionists.
Unless Obama or whoever gains the presidency secures our borders first and signs the SAVE ACT, they will be toast with the American people.
The time for Comprehensive Immigration Reform is now!
ReplyDeleteChange is in the air!
Right, let's secure our borders and pass the SAVE ACT. Make the employers and the illegal aliens accountable for their actions. Now that would be real and positive change!
ReplyDeleteThen what makes AZ's or OK's economies any different then CA's economy? Their debt is a lot less than CA's. What about all the new laws states, counties, cities are implementing throughout the USA against Illegals (restrictionist laws)?
ReplyDeleteOklahomas HB 1804 includes making it illegal to knowingly transport illegal immigrants.
ReplyDeleteThis aspect promotes racial profiling. Police stopping cars with Latinos to question their status. This racial profiling is wrong.
Your response still doesn't answer my question of the differences in CA, OK, and AZ.
ReplyDeletePolice can not pull anybody over with out probable cause, unless they are randomly checking cars. However, I have yet to hear of one such case either from OK or AZ.
I posted articles a month or so ago about the racial profiling in OK. There were even court cases and several commenters indicating so in on line articles.
ReplyDeleteCalifornia, as I said, has another set of issues related to the economy. I listed many of them.
You make a mountain out of a molehill, dee. The key word here in transporting illegals is "knowlingly" and as liquid said police don't just stop every car with a Latino in it. You sure like to spin the truth, dont' you?
ReplyDeleteI keep asking you this question but you keep dodging it. If the police were looking for a white male who had committed a crime, should they be questioning black females? It isn't racial profiling if one fits the description of the perpetrator of a crime. Besides all one needs to do in the case of being questioned about immigration status is to present valid I.D. Stop playing victim here, dee. Legal Hispanics should be mad at their illegal amigos for creating this situation for them, not law enforcement and not other American citizens. But what do they do instead? Stick up for them! As the saying goes, "if you lie down with dogs, you are apt to catch fleas" (this is just an analogy).
Dee said...
ReplyDeleteI posted articles a month or so ago about the racial profiling in OK. There were even court cases and several commenters indicating so in on line articles.
You posted the following about "Racial Profiling", yet have shown no such cases in Oklahoma.
1.) The following are two news articles. The 1st is a news article from Oklahoma. The 2nd is a news article from Arizona.
In November, Oklahoma passed a restrictionist Immigration law which included verbiage indicating transporting illegal immigrants is a crime. "This resulted in Racial Profiling."
2.) Mexican Nationals Deluge Mexican Consular Services Requesting Passports due to Increased State Enacted Illegall Immigration Enforcement Laws and the increase in "Racial Profiling!"
How can the passing of a Bill result in racial profiling?
Like I said, there are NO KNOWN racial profiling cases that have come up since the enactment of HB1804.
Now, why is Oklahoma or Arizona any different than California in their economies? How can California have a different set of issues than either of the other 2? What you posted about California, the following:
Housing Bubble Burst.
Greedy Contractors.
Greedy Mortgage Companies.
Greedy Consumers living beyond their means in McMansions- Interest Only Loans.
These all are the same things happening in each and every state in the union. California has the highest number of Illegal Aliens in the nation, so what makes CA any different then OK or AZ about their economies?
Liquid,
ReplyDeleteAs you know, I posted several articles about racial profiling in Tulsa. Read the latest article in my latest blog. This was in November, December. Also, it was important to read the user comments for additional acknowledements from citizens.
From latest blog:
"As immigrant workers flee the state, immigrant-heavy sectors such as construction have seen varying declines of skilled workers. In Tulsa, where enforcement has been MORE PRONOUNCED, so have labor shortages"
While there is plenty of PRO and ANTI commenter feedback on a number of articles, like this one, here are some PRO Tulsa comments for those who believe there are none.
ReplyDeleteComment 1:
You all enjoy yourselves while you can. You've lost this battle. The next President (McCain, Hillary or Obama) will support immigration reform and a new federal law will pass this time giving these families a path to citizenship. The OKlahoma law will be moot. As the article above says, "you all lost on this issue". Your candidates, the Tancredoes of the world were widely rejected receiving no support. Obviously the American people want a different way. A new day is coming! And another thing, "the liberal media" as you call it does matter. Companies that might relocate to Oklahoma read the "liberal media" and might decide not to come to a state that doesn't welcome hard working families.
David, Norman - Feb 18, 2008 10:22 AM
Comment 2:
I'm liberal and I give a damn! Bad bill! Bad leadership and plenty of morons to whine about taking our country back! What hogwash and now Okies are seen nationally as more ignorant and backward than previously reported! Morons! Nobody is being "hurt" by illegals being here. Except, at the grocery store, fast food restaurants, one can experience the absence of workers. I don't need such a law. It's against everything I believe in like pursuit of happiness! And treating others as you would like to be treated!
Desiderius, Tuttle - Feb 18, 2008 8:57 AM
Believe me, there are plenty more, on both sides.
More Racial Profiling in Tulsa to Hispanic Citizen employees of the Power Company.
ReplyDeleteTulsa commenter:
REMEMBER THE ICE STORMS WE HAD THE END OF LAST YEAR? I'M SURE YOU DO. OK 3 WEEK BEFORE THAT HAPPEN A CREW WAS SENT TO NICHOLS HILLS(YOU KNOW WERE ALL THE RICH WHITE PEOPLE LIVE) TO CUT DOWN SOME TREES THAT WERE OVER THE OG&E POWERLINES SINCE IN OUR CREW WE ONLY HAVE HISPANIC WORKERS, ONE OF THE HOME OWNERS CALL THE POLICE AND IMMIGRATION, BECAUSE WE LOOK "SUSPICIOUS" WEEKS LATER AS YOU ALL KNOW THE ICE STORM HIT OKLAHOMA AND POWER WAS OUT IN A LOT OF PLACES FOR WEEKS BUT OG&E'S PRIORITY WAS NICHOLS HILLS SO WE WERE SENT OUT THERE AND GUESS WHO CAME OUT WITH COFFEE AND LEMONADE THE SAME EXACT LADY THAT CALL THE POLICE AND IMMIGRATION, AND THIS TIME SHE DID NOT CARE IF WE WERE HISPANIC AND SPOKE ONLY SPANISH AS LONG AS WE WERE TRIMMING THOSE LIMBS AND GET HER POWER BACK ON "PROBLEMA" SHE SAID IN ESPAÑOL ALSO QUIERE MAS CAFE? MEANS WOULD YOU LIKE SOME MORE COFFEE? SO THAT TELLS YOU SOMETHING HA. BY THE WAY WE WERE SENT TO THE CREATOR OF HB1804 HOUSE YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS.HE DID NOT HAD A PROBLEMA EITHER WITH A BUNCH OF MEXICANS WORKING IN HIS BACK YARD. NOW LET ME TELL YOU WHAT F.E.M.A STANDS FOR :FIND.EVERY.MEXICAN.AVAILABLE........
jose, OKLAHOMA - Feb 10, 2008 1:24 AM
"In Tulsa, where enforcement has been MORE PRONOUNCED, so have labor shortages"
ReplyDeleteCouldn't this also be MORE PRONOUNCED meaning through the employers and not racial profiling through the police? Since there is no definite meaning to the way it is used in the story. And since there are no documented 'Racial Profiling' cases in either state, this would lean more towards the business side and not the racial profiling of police.
As for Jose, the old lady should not have called ICE or the police, if they were working, she should have called to verify their employment through the company. As for "the creator of HB1804", it is the employers responsibility to be certain that its employees are legal to work here, its not his position to judge or make the call.
ReplyDeleteJose does show resentment with his post, too. The door does swing both ways, maybe he should have just smiled and gone about his work instead of degrading himself with his own comment "FIND.EVERY.MEXICAN.AVAILABLE".
user comments about supposed racial profiling are nothing more then there mere opinions. There are no known court cases of racial profiling, in either state.
ReplyDeleteFunny how you pick the only 2 PRO posters in that opinion post. There are 5 others that are ANTI talking how good the bill is.
Exactly, liquidmicro. There are no documented cases of racial profiling that have been proven to be true. Only citizens reacting under certain circumstances and opinion by the pro side. Let dee show one case that is proven, especially where law enforcement was involved in this so-called racial profiling. How can a grown woman be so dishonest?
ReplyDelete