I, like most Latinos, like most Americans, am interested in: . Ending the war in Iraq
. The Economy, Jobs, Education, Family
. Comprehensive Immigration Reform
. Universal Healthcare
. Human Rights
. Global Warming
Beyond these very important issues, I think it is very important we elect a President who will be respected throughout the world. Not as a war-monger, but a President who is respected for their diplomacy.
We want a President who will respect us as citizens and respect the Bill of Rights.
When we talk about Comprehensive Immigration Reform, we need to change the us vs them mentality. We need to understand the History of Immigration over the past 100+ years and how we arrived where we are today.
We need to stop the scape-goating of Latinos and the Racial Profiling.
We need a President who will unite us and not continue to divide us.
We Latinos must vote. When I say this, I say this because we have a history of low voting ratios. If we want our voices to be heard, we must vote, stay informed of the issues and participate in this great, national discussion. We can do so on the internet, through our schools, through local government and by staying involved. That is
"YES WE CAN... make a Difference!"
Dee,
ReplyDeleteyou are correct,
but please understand that if the 20 million undocumented are made in to citizens they will vote in large numbers for candidates that invite another 100 million to move from the third world to the usa
So you are correct, voting is on the upswing, but all american citizens need to understand that what you are calling for, citizenship for the 20 million, will translate in to the 20 million voting and a change in the government.
The choice is simple. Deport the 20 million, or make them citizens and see another 100 million come in legally right behind them.
Just don't insult our intelligence by claiming that the 20 million new citizens won't vote for dramatically higher immigration in the future.
dee, just for once I wish you would stop repeating the same old nonsense such as "scapegoating", the "history of immigration","racial profiling", "restrictionist laws". None of it applies to today's illegal immigration problem. Latinos need to start being honest and stop with the rhetoric.
ReplyDeletePat, You continue to remain in denial. The bottom line is, when we talk about CIR we need to understand the History of Immigration over the past 100+ years and how we arrived where we are today. If you want to identify Root Cause, know and understand it lies in our transition to a Global Economy and actions taken by various Administrations and Businesses. Stop Scapegoating Latinos for all the issues impacting our country. Study the History of Immigration. Until you are willing to admit your biases and your expectation of Mass Deportation of 12M people not being feasible, you will never arrive at Solutions to our Immigration issues.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteThere are 2 issues.
1. I advocate Latino Citizens should study the issues and vote for the candidate that is truest to their issues. Latino ratio of voting was lower in the past, but if we want changes, we need to increase our rate of voters.
2. IF CIR is passed, the 12M here who are applicable will get in line to attain citizenship. This may take YEARS. Once they are eligible to vote, all should study the issues and vote for the candidate of their choice.
If CIR is not passed, you are talking about the MASS Deportation of 12M - 20M people (with their children) and this is a totally separate issue. However, I doubt Mass Deportation will happen. It would be far too devastating to our economy.
No, dee we don't need to look at the history of immigration to enforce our immigration laws today. It doesn't matter how we arrived at where we are today. It is irrelevant! We still need to enforce our laws that are on the books today!
ReplyDeleteAgain, it isn't about mass deportation. It is about holding our employers accountable for who they have on their payroll and firing anyone on it that isn't here legally. This will take a full 4 years. No devastation to our economy. End of story.
Dee
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are being truthful.
If the undocumented people in the USA become citizens, how will they vote?
you are asking us to take in to our home people who will have a say in how the home is operated
it is quite legit to discuss the policies they will vote for
I have stated clearly that once the undocumented are citizens, they will vote for the candidate that promises to let them LEGALLY bring their families in to the usa
i think you owe me an answer - are these new citizens going to vote for the candidate that says very few relatives can come in or the one that says a lot of relatives can come in
anon, that is what is going on today with citizen Hispanics. They are voting for the candidates that will allow legalization to their whole extended family of illegal Latinos that are here and those still in the homeland. The Hispanic culture is very tribal and that is dangerous in a country that promotes equality for all and special favors for none.
ReplyDeleteSome might be interested in the German view of the U.S. election as published in Der Spiegel (The Mirror).
ReplyDeletehttp://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,530129,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,534797,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,536232,00.html
"If CIR is not passed, you are talking about the MASS Deportation of 12M - 20M people (with their children) and this is a totally separate issue. However, I doubt Mass Deportation will happen. It would be far too devastating to our economy."
ReplyDeleteMass deportation is the opposite pole to mass amnesty. Neither need be the only answer if we look for reasonable solutions. Mass deportation will not happen but something short of that is essential to create the appropriate disincentives and to send the message that foreigner cannot breach our borders with impunity and suffer no consequences. That would be recipe for disaster unless one believes that open borders is the real answer. We understand that some Hispanics want their relatives to come to the land of milk and honey but they don't know how quickly that land can be destroyed by a flood of humanity. But even this doesn't explain those who do not have relatives waiting in the wings who favor a liberal policy toward illegal aliens.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteAll citizens who vote should vote their choice, whether now or in the future.
I recommend all study the issues and make an informed choice, whether they be people like you or me or anyone else.
The 2nd issue is, if CIR is passed and if the 12M are allowed to proceed to some legalization status, then the process does take time. At that point, like anyone else, they will make their choices, as every other voter does.
Pat,
ReplyDeleteYour problem is, you do not want Latino citizens to vote. Shame on you!
Ulty,
ReplyDeleteThe urls pull up dead links plus they are in German. Yikes!
dee, well that is true of the Hispanics that are going to vote by ethnocentric interests rather than the interests of this whole country. Too many of them are going to do that.
ReplyDeleteNo, shame on those Hispanics that are going to vote by ethnocentric interests rather than the interests of this whole country.
ReplyDeleteIssues Influencing White European Voters in the Next Presidential Election!
ReplyDeleteHow does that sound, Dee?
Dee,
ReplyDeleteYou are not being honest here
you know that if 20 million undocumented people become citizens and vote they will vote to allow their extended families to come to the USA. As a voting block they will be powerful enough to get this through (in combination with the recently naturalized citizens already here in the USA)
Bottom line, even if a person likes and respects the 20 million undocumented and would be happy to have them as fellow citizens, that person still needs to vote for deportation of the 20 million - since CIR means the 20 million vote for another 100 million to come in after them.
The issue on the table is not the 20 million it is the 100 million or more that are right behind them.
Dee, I agree with you about what fine people most of the 20 million are.
But i think you are dishonest when you refuse to talk about the 100 million coming up behind them. In fact you are deliberately misleading when you hide the issue of the 100 million.
I would ask everyone on this board, pro and anti, to go interview a few undocumented folks - talk to them - get to know them - they are generally pretty open and honest people (unlike Dee) And they will tell you quite honestly that as soon as they become citizens they plan to apply for their extended family to move to the USA legally and to vote for candidates that will allow their entire home village to move to the usa legally
Again, it doesn't matter what country the undocumented immigrant is from, whether Mexico, Syria, Brazil, Indonesia, Guatemala. The one thing that unites all the undocumented immigrants is their intention to vote for the candidates that will allow them to bring in their whole village.
Do the work talking to these fine people and you realize that the number 100 million is very low - add up all the people they want to bring in to USA and it adds to literally hundreds of millions
"I advocate Latino Citizens should study the issues and vote for the candidate that is truest to their issues."
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this approach is that it ignores the national interest which may be different from one's personal interests. An example is pork barrel spending. Most voters seem to be willing to re-elect the congressmen who deliver the pork for their state. Robert Byrd, the king of pork, is one example but there are others like Hillary and Obama.
Of course, people would like to think that their interests are congruent with the national interest but in most cases they give little thought to how their interest impinge on the national interest. If a person wants to bring all his or her relatives into the U.S., they never ask themselves what will it do to this country if everyone has his or her way in this regard.
Population growth due to immigration in the long run has the following effects on the environment: deforestation and habitat destruction, soil problems (erosion, salinization and soil fertility losses), water management, overhunting, overfishing,effects of introduced species on native species, human population growth, and increased per-capita impact of people. It is in the national interest to avoid or mitigate these effects by whatever means may be necessary but few citizens think about this when they vote. Some just vote the straight party ticket. It's simpler that way; you don't have to think. Others are swayed by the charisma of a candidate or perceptions of what they will do or have done while in office without necessarily subjecting these perceptions to critical examination in relation to the national interest.
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeletePlease re read my answer.
diane, I am with you! How about all us Whites saying we are going to vote for someone who will take care of the special interests of Whites? How about we spit on our immigration laws and invite and advocate all White Europeans to come here illegally so we can annilate the "browns". Let's whine everytime a White person is questioned in a crime and scream racial profiling. See how racist that sounds?
ReplyDeleteUlty,
ReplyDeleteWe cannot pretend to know what is in other people´s minds when they vote. For you or Anon to "know" that Latino Citizens will "vote to allow their extended families to come to USA" is like my saying all ANTIs will vote to start up Operation Wxxback again.
We ask ALL Citizens to study the issues and vote their choice. That is what America is all about! Freedom to choose.
NOT Vote as I tell you to Vote!
Dianne,
ReplyDeleteI utilized this title because, historically, the ratio of Latino Voters is not consistent to our Numbers. By this discussion, we raise the level of awareness.
dee, are you claiming that most Hispanic citizens in this country today are not swayed to vote for candidates that are promising amnesty for illegals? You know it is true and that was the point. Hispanic citizens in the future will do the same. They will vote to increase their numbers here in this country. Lets not be coy here.
ReplyDeleteDee,
ReplyDeletei am disappointed in your dishonesty.
You know for a fact that the fine folks from mexico that became citizens as a result of the 1986 amnesty consistently vote for the candidates that promise to let them bring their whole village to the usa through chain migration
i don't blame these fine folks, but i do say to you, dee, fook me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me
we won't be fooled again.
You are in my opinion dishonest for not stating the truth of how the 20 million will vote if they get another amnesty
"We cannot pretend to know what is in other people´s minds when they vote. For you or Anon to "know" that Latino Citizens will "vote to allow their extended families to come to USA"
ReplyDeleteTrue enough but the street demonstrations of a year or so ago speak for themselves. If these were citizens as you claim, what were they demonstrating for if not for a liberal CIR bill that would enable all their relatives to leave their homelands and come here and all those illegals already here to stay with impunity. Seems to me there must be some connection. When I read some of the stuff coming out of California, it sounds an awful lot like open borders so my kin can come to the land of mild and honey.
This is a good time for a what if question. What if we are right? What if the 12-20 million quickly turns into 100 million as a result of CIR? How will you feel then? Also what about the 200-300 million that will be produced by those already here by the end of this century? Do you think that will be a good thing for anyone? Take another drive in the Dallas rush hour before your answer that? Maybe a visit to Parkland Hospital would be good and a review of the Medicaid budget would also be a good thing.
YES
ReplyDeleteDee i know you care about your family. Think about what kind of america they will be living in if we are right - 100 million new citizens, producing large numbers of children so that the us population doubles from here
Just step back and think about it for a minute Dee.
YES
ReplyDeleteDee i know you care about your family. Think about what kind of america they will be living in if we are right - 100 million new citizens, producing large numbers of children so that the us population doubles from here
Just step back and think about it for a minute Dee.
Every citizen should be encouraged to vote regardless of race.
ReplyDeleteBut, let's be frank here. I have never seen an election so racially divided. It's all about race and who will offer the most to one's own race. The statistics are crystal clear.
If there was a Hispanic running for President, neither Hillary nor Barack would get more than a pittance of the vote..
In the end, your ANTI BIASes do not matter.
ReplyDeleteEach American, each citizen, will VOTE based on their own, personal agenda, their own personal study.
I am glad Americans, ALL Americans, are studying the issues and voting for themselves!
This is what our forefathers wanted when the wrote-trancribed the Constitution and the Bill of Rights!
I say, "Hurray America! Hurray for Voting! Hurray for Involvement!"
And I sincerely hope that this year, in 2008, we have the greatest number of Voters in American History!!
AN ANALOGY
ReplyDeleteBird food for thought!
I bought a bird feeder. I hung
it on my back porch and filled
it with seed. What a beauty of
a bird feeder it is, as I filled it lovingly with seed. Within a
week we had hundreds of birds
taking advantage of the
continuous flow of free and
easily accessible food.
But then the birds started
building nests in the boards
of the patio, above the table,
and next to the barbecue.
Then came the poop. It was
everywhere: on the patio tile,
the chairs, the table ..
everywhere!
Then some of the birds
turned mean. They would
dive bomb me and try to
peck me even though I had
fed them out of my own
pocket.
And others birds were
boisterous and loud. They
sat on the feeder and
squawked and screamed at
all hours of the day and night
and demanded that I fill it
when it got low on food.
After a while, I couldn't even
sit on my own back porch
anymore. So I took down the
bird feeder and in three days
the birds were gone. I cleaned
up their mess and took down
the many nests they had built
all over the patio.
Soon, the back yard was like
it used to be ... quiet, serene
and no one demanding their
rights to a free meal.
Now let's see .
Our government gives out
free food, subsidized housing,
free medical care, and free
education and allows anyone
born here to be an automatic
citizen.
Then the illegals came by the
tens of thousands. Suddenly
our taxes went up to pay for
free services; small apartments
are housing 5 families; you
have to wait 6 hours to be seen
by an emergency room doctor;
your child's 2nd grade class is
behind other schools because
over half the class doesn't speak
English.
Corn Flakes now come in a
bilingual box; I have to
'press one' to hear my bank
talk to me in English, and
people waving flags other
than ' Old Glory ' are
squawking and screaming
in the streets, demanding
more rights and free liberties.
Just my opinion, but maybe
it's time for the government
to take down the bird feeder.
Do you agree,; if not,
continue cleaning up the poop!
I don't want any deportations. Are you concerned about an over-population, generally, or just afraid of too many Hispanics and/or Mexicans being here? Is it about His Panic? Take away the welfare state, and the attractions and the illegal border crossings should come down. If there was less welfarism, there would be less resentment. As a white Catholic, I love Hispanic people and it is time to extend an olive branch to Mexico.
ReplyDeleteI don't want any deportations. Are you concerned about an over-population, generally, or just afraid of too many Hispanics and/or Mexicans being here? Is it about His Panic? Take away the welfare state, and the attractions and the illegal border crossings should come down. If there was less welfarism, there would be less resentment. As a white Catholic, I love Hispanic people and it is time to extend an olive branch to Mexico.
ReplyDeletedee, anti biases? What does that mean? If anyone is biased it is Hispanics who are ethnocentric.
ReplyDeleteVoting on issues that will only benefit one's own race rather than the nation as a whole is unethical and un-American.
jeff, deportations are the punishment for violating our immigration laws. That isn't racist and it is necessary.
ReplyDeleteYes, we do have a majority white population and our country is based on a long standing culture, heritage and language. When you have too many immigrants coming here from mostly one ethnic group especially illegally the demographics of this country will change. We are no different than Mexico and all other countries that have an identifying society in that we would like to retain it. There isn't anything racist about it at all. People are territorial just like animals are.
Most societies don't mind a minority of other ethnic groups living among them but when they start to outnumber the dominant society and insist on us adapting to them rather than the other way around, there is cause for concern.
Mexico should first extend an olive branch to us as they are perfectly happy with millions of their poor citizens invading our borders illegally. They do nothing to take care of their own. When they take care of their own and show respect for the soveirgnty of our borders then we can talk about the "olive branch".
America has millions of citizens of mexican ancestry today.
ReplyDeleteThey are good people. They serve in the military. They serve on the border patrol. They care about america.
i appreciate our citizens of mexican ancestry.
However, it is perfectly appropriate to love and respect the citizens of mexican ancestry and at the same time say, no more immigrants from mexico. Deport every single one of the undocumented, end chain migration.
You can express genuine appreciation for the americans of mexican ancestry and at the same time allow zero additional immigrants from mexico
by the way, the policy of having zero immigration from mexico will result in wages going up for citizens of mexican ancestry - since less competition for jobs
there are many many citizens of mexican ancestry in the anti camp. More are joining all the time.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteWelcome! Please come back frequently and comment often!
According to a nationwide Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll taken last December (PDF), 60% of all registered voters (including 64% of Republicans and 63% of Democrats) favor a proposal to "allow illegal immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have a criminal record, to start on a path to citizenship by registering … paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements."
ReplyDeleteThe point has been made many times that the answers you get depend on the answers you make available. If this was a yes or no question, there wasn't much choice. If a comprehensive set of other alternatives were offered, the results would have been quite different and much more meaningful. These simplistic surveys have no essential value.
A little off topic, but the democratic debate tomorrow night might just be the most interesting debate of the whole year and last year. According to news reports I've seen on MSNBC and Fox, Hillary is finally standing up and fighting back against Barack's lack of experience as well as his use of some untruthful campaign literature.
ReplyDeleteIt might be too late for Hillary, but she probably figures she has nothing to lose by being her own person and taking on her competitor in a spirited and truthful way.
Barack (the messiah) Obama has been given a pass by the media on everything from his lack of experience to some of his past and it's high time he faced reality.
For those of you out there considering voting for Barack, take a look at the issue of abortion. Not only does he support partial birth abortion, when he was a Senator in Illinios, he worked to ban medical treatment for babies born alive after failed abortions. This is a documented fact. Illinois passed the law despite his attempts to deep six it. It is now a federal law as well and testimony was given during congressional hearings (available on line) which proved that such practices did occur...some to babies who were only being aborted because of Down's syndrome.
When you go tot he polls, ask yourself what kind of President would a person be who worked to deprive an infant of life who had already survived an attempt to kill it. In my opinion, that person is not fit to be President or hold any public office at all.
I'm sure abortion won't even come up in the debate tomorrow night, but perhaps it will during the presidential debates once the nominees are picked. I sure hope so.
Jeff says,"Are you concerned about an over-population, generally, or just afraid of too many Hispanics and/or Mexicans being here? Is it about His Panic?"
ReplyDeleteI am concerned about overpopulation generally. Hispanics are just the largest group of those who are in the process of doubling our population before the end of this century. Have you thought about what that will mean in terms of congestion, crime, corruption, welfarism, and depletion of natural resources? As I have point out from time to time, the limit of finite natural resources per capita as population increases without bounds is zero. How far down that road do you want to go? Is filling the collection plates in the catholic churches sufficient cause for diminishing the standard of living and quality of life for all?
"And I sincerely hope that this year, in 2008, we have the greatest number of Voters in American History!!"
ReplyDeleteTo what end -- Mexico Norte?
I am concerned about both, a growing population which incidently is mostly occuring through illegal immigration by a high fertility ethnic group and too many immigrants from just one ethnic group. Ultima has already mirrored my views on excessive popualtion grouth and it's downfalls and of course what country wants to lose it's historical identity, culture and language through illegal immigration? I would say none!
ReplyDelete"His Panic'? Isn't that the title of Geraldo's new book? The enthnocetric traitor? lol.
Dianne,
ReplyDeleteI agree it will be an interesting debate. Lots going on. I see the swiftboaters are getting up thier ire on the internet. We will see if the rhetoric impacts the debate.
Ulty,
ReplyDeleteI hope you are not advocating Hispanic citizens NOT vote.