This is one amazing op-ed! All in a nutshell! This New York Times article tells the story of WHY we should not be forcing BAD IMMIGRATION BILLS and instead opt for Comprehensive Immigration Reform!The search for a silver bullet to slay illegal immigration continues. Hard-liners are turning the country upside down looking for it. They are looking in Washington, where Senate Republicans last week offered more than a dozen bills to further enshrine mass deportation as the national immigration strategy. It is a grab bag of enforcement measures that will be useful for tough-talking campaign commercials, but will not actually solve anything. Republicans and some Democrats in the House are trying to force a vote on a bad bill called the SAVE Act, which among other things would force all workers, including citizens, to prove they have a right to earn a living — a bad idea compounded by the notoriously bad state of federal government records. The error rate in just one database, the Social Security Administration’s, is believed to be more than 4 percent, making it likely that many thousands of Americans would face unjust firings and discrimination, and waste a lot of time and effort trying to clear their names.
The harsh-enforcement virus has spread far beyond the Capitol. In states like Oklahoma, laws have been enacted to force illegal immigrants further underground, off official registries and into anonymity, by denying them identification like driver’s licenses. In a growing number of states and counties, politicians are offering up police officers to the federal government for immigration posses. From Prince William County, Va., to Maricopa County, Ariz., officers who pull people over for minor traffic infractions are checking immigration papers, too. Many law-enforcement professionals say this is reckless and self-defeating, because it sends a deep, silencing chill into immigrant communities. Citizens and legal residents will inevitably be hassled for looking Latino. And it is expensive; Prince William’s new law is expected to cost $26 million over five years, plus a few million more to outfit police cars with cameras, as a hedge against lawsuits.
Maybe some people do not mind that immigration zealotry is sending the country down a path of far greater intrusion into citizens’ lives, into a world of ingrained suspicion, routine discrimination and economic disruption. Is that what we want — to make the immigration system tougher without fixing it? To make illegal immigrants suffer without any hope of ever becoming legal, because that is amnesty? Could it be that tightening the screws relentlessly on illegal immigrants, even if some citizens suffer in the process, is all for the greater good? Which is — what exactly? To drive a large cohort of workers out of a sputtering economy? To take more people off the books? To prop up the under-the-table businesses that inevitably evade such crackdowns? To worsen wages and working conditions for all Americans, since nobody works more cheaply and takes more abuse than a terrified, desperate immigrant? (the author of this op-ed is a genius!!! He spelled out the core issues in a nutshell!!)
This is a country that runs on routine amnesties. Where would the courts be without plea bargains, or state budgets without periodic tax forgiveness? Are illegal immigrants the one class of undesirables for whom common sense, proportionality, discernment, good judgment and compassion are unthinkable?
It is frightening to think that this country’s answer could be an emphatic yes.
The harsh-enforcement virus has spread far beyond the Capitol. In states like Oklahoma, laws have been enacted to force illegal immigrants further underground, off official registries and into anonymity, by denying them identification like driver’s licenses. In a growing number of states and counties, politicians are offering up police officers to the federal government for immigration posses. From Prince William County, Va., to Maricopa County, Ariz., officers who pull people over for minor traffic infractions are checking immigration papers, too. Many law-enforcement professionals say this is reckless and self-defeating, because it sends a deep, silencing chill into immigrant communities. Citizens and legal residents will inevitably be hassled for looking Latino. And it is expensive; Prince William’s new law is expected to cost $26 million over five years, plus a few million more to outfit police cars with cameras, as a hedge against lawsuits.
Maybe some people do not mind that immigration zealotry is sending the country down a path of far greater intrusion into citizens’ lives, into a world of ingrained suspicion, routine discrimination and economic disruption. Is that what we want — to make the immigration system tougher without fixing it? To make illegal immigrants suffer without any hope of ever becoming legal, because that is amnesty? Could it be that tightening the screws relentlessly on illegal immigrants, even if some citizens suffer in the process, is all for the greater good? Which is — what exactly? To drive a large cohort of workers out of a sputtering economy? To take more people off the books? To prop up the under-the-table businesses that inevitably evade such crackdowns? To worsen wages and working conditions for all Americans, since nobody works more cheaply and takes more abuse than a terrified, desperate immigrant? (the author of this op-ed is a genius!!! He spelled out the core issues in a nutshell!!)
This is a country that runs on routine amnesties. Where would the courts be without plea bargains, or state budgets without periodic tax forgiveness? Are illegal immigrants the one class of undesirables for whom common sense, proportionality, discernment, good judgment and compassion are unthinkable?
It is frightening to think that this country’s answer could be an emphatic yes.
Note: Dystopia - a dystopian (ANTI) society’s dreams of improvement are overshadowed by STIMULATING FALSE FEARS of the supposedly “ugly consequences of present-day reality”.
You are so full of it, dee. If the Save Act passes, ALL employees will be checked not just Hispanics.
ReplyDeleteSo the database has a 4% error ratio. Gee, that means it is a whopping 96% accurate!!!
As has been stated in here time and time again and you keep ignoring the fact that employees will have ample time to clear up any discrepancies in their records. Get on the loyal American bandwagon and get off the disloyal seditionist one, dee.
Question: What kind of "patriot" advocates for laws that makes people - everyone in this case - have to show their papers just to go to work?
ReplyDeleteThe problem with restricting immigration is that it turns our free society into a "show-me-your-papers" authoritarian paradise.
This country was founded by people who had the guts to break a few laws in order to live in freedom here in America. The truly loyal Americans I see today are the unauthorized immigrants who want to be Americans so badly that they are also willing to break a few laws to do it. Those are the people we used to call Patriots, not "illegals." I salute and welcome them.
Jim,
ReplyDeleteWelcome to my blog. I hope you come back often.
I agree with you. The restrictionist laws, particularly the SAVE Act, will impact all of us. To give up are civil liberties is unacceptable!
Jim,
ReplyDeleteYou really think the illegals give a sh__ about becoming Americans?
Think again. They are here for the almighty dollar that they can send back to old Mexico. Loyal American-the illegal alien-give me a break!
Jim said...
ReplyDeleteQuestion: What kind of "patriot" advocates for laws that makes people - everyone in this case - have to show their papers just to go to work?
Not everyone will have to show there papers to work. Nothing like a little exaggeration on your part to trigger fallacies. E-Verify goes through a database, only those whose information is either incorrect or falsified would be the ones to show proper authorization for which they will have ample time to do.
Jim said...
The problem with restricting immigration is that it turns our free society into a "show-me-your-papers" authoritarian paradise.
Whats the problem with showing ID. You do it all the time, think about it. There never has been a "Free Society" and there never will be. There have been rules and boundaries since Adam & Eve.
Jim said...
This country was founded by people who had the guts to break a few laws in order to live in freedom here in America.
The country was founded by colonists from various countries and origins.
One event that reminded colonists of their shared identity as British subjects was the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748) in Europe. This conflict spilled over into the colonies, where it was known as "King George's War"; most of the fighting took place in Europe, British colonial troops attacked French Canada.
At the Albany Congress of 1754, Benjamin Franklin proposed that the colonies be united by a Grand Council overseeing a common policy for defense, expansion, and Indian affairs. While the plan was thwarted by colonial legislatures and King George II, it was an early indication that the British colonies of North America were headed towards unification.
Royal Proclamation
The general sentiment of inequity that arose soon after the Treaty of Paris was solidified by the Royal Proclamation of 1763, which temporarily prohibited settlement west of the Appalachian Mountains. Colonists resented the measure, and it was never enforced.
Acts of Parliament
Parliament had generally been preoccupied with affairs in Europe and let the colonies govern themselves. It was no longer willing to do so. A series of measures resulting from this policy change, while affecting the New England colonies most directly would continue to arouse opposition in the 'thirteen colonies' over the next thirteen years:
* Currency Act (1764)
* Sugar Act (1764)
* Stamp Act 1765
* First Quartering Act (1765)
* Declaratory Act (1766)
* Townshend Revenue Act (1767)
* Tea Act (1773)
* The Intolerable Acts, also called the Coercive or Punitive Acts
o Second Quartering Act (1774)
o Quebec Act (1774)
o Massachusetts Government Act (1774)
o Administration of Justice Act (1774)
o Boston Port Act (1774)
* Prohibitory Act (1776)
They opposed the laws and fought against them.
Jim said...
The truly loyal Americans I see today are the unauthorized immigrants who want to be Americans so badly that they are also willing to break a few laws to do it.
If you read what most "Illegals" say, they come here for the money, not to become citizens, they come her to work and support their families and to eventually go back to their homelands.
These people are not patriots, and your delusion of them being as such is laughable. They come here to better their status of living back home.
Liquid, The way the restrictionist laws are working now, it is only the Brown people being racially profiled.
ReplyDeleteIF the SAVE Act ever passes, we will all be impacted with the increased restrictionist measures including contractors, unmanned aircraft, more 1984!
More Racial Profiling... Is that your only argument? Heaven forbid it catches synthetic ID theft. Unmanned aircraft are already patrolling the border. Your "contractors" only house the people, they are not the ones to arrest them, thats business. You fail to see that you already give most of your info in order to obtain anything in the USA. You already show your papers, ID and SS card to get a job, benefits from locales must show proof of residency, purchase items with CC or check must show ID, and so on and so on. So how do yo propose we weed out those that do not belong? You want to legalize all of them, thus the side effects are no employers getting into trouble for hiring and exploiting the "Illegals", no fence or further acts of restriction so more keep coming, looking for the same handouts, and so on and so on.
ReplyDeleteYou still make this a racial issue by defining this as a Brown Issue, yet we are the ones called racists, nativist, xenophobe and separatists.
"force all workers, including citizens, to prove they have a right to earn a living"
ReplyDeleteDee, have you even HAD a job?
I've filled out the I-9 form countless times, even though I'm a white, English speaking American who is obviously a citizen.
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-9.pdf
Haven't you?
Hran,
ReplyDeleteI have worked all of my life.
The issue with the so called SAVE Act is it puts in place restrictionist laws which will severely impact all of our civil liberties. It calls for a significant increase in the number of private contractors, like Blackwater, to patrol the cities and towns, starting with the Southwest but across the nation. It will be all that is depicted in Orwell´s 1984 and worse. Blackwater has already tested unmanned aircraft flying over Houston streets, peering into neighborhoods, especially Brown neighborhoods!
If it passes, we will be living in a Military State!
jim, your remarks are so idiotic and so irrational they don't even rate a reply.
ReplyDeleteJim brings up a very good point, thank you very much Jim, if this horrid act passes it'll be another freedom taken from us, just like the patriot act, it seems like just name an act the complete opposite the better chance it has to pass, BS, oh and Jim, that authoritarian paradise is called MAYBERRY
ReplyDeleteAlso Jim, pay no mind to pat (no one else does), he has a tendency to fly off the handle at times (WAY off the handle)
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is completely false, dee. We already have unmanned aircraft patroling our borders. They wouldn't be patrolling the whole U.S. if the Save Act passes. As liquid has already stated Blackwater would only be housing illegal aliens not arresting them.
ReplyDeleteAside from that, what is your objection to the E-verify system that would be implemented? I thought you wanted the employers to be held accountable. Even with a small percentage of flaws in it, employees would have ample time to correct any errors that would effect them. Are you saying that with that high of a margin of efficiency that would make sure employers only hire legal workers, you would still oppose the e-verify system? If so dee, then you are showing your true colors. Nothing is perfect but e-verify is in keeping with the American way of the rule of law and it is our best bet to do that.
Dee,
ReplyDeleteOK, I didn't mean to imply you don't work.
But look, you're against a border fence. I assume you want to give amnesty to the 20 million illegals already here. You're against any enforcement of immigration law because it's "racial profiling" or "big brother".
So, essentially, you want an open border where unlimited numbers of immigrant can enter the country and find work (or not, and live off of welfare payments available to all).
That means my ethnic group is in danger of being swamped. No?
anon1, still playing the race card I see. So typicial of you pro-illegal ethnocentric racists. Sorry you hate Mayberry so much but it is similar to the barrio's in Mexico. It is a called traditional America and tradional Mexico. I find nothing racist about either country retaining their tradiontal cultures. Hispanics have 22 traditional countries in the Western Hemisphere but Whites aren't entitled to any?
ReplyDeleteI am totally agree with Jim about we are a free society where we becoming a police State.
ReplyDeleteLiquid you said: Not everyone will have to show there papers to work.
Who's need to show their documents? Hispanics? There is a racial profile on this bill that many people do not want to see.
Patriot, Regarding your coment: I find nothing racist about either country retaining their tradiontal cultures. Hispanics have 22 traditional countries in the Western Hemisphere but Whites aren't entitled to any?
Isn't we called ourselves Americans? We are a sovereign Country of Immigrants. Why you hadn't assimilated to the culture and language of the Native Americans? We rather segretated them from our Society and History rather than accepted them.
The only ones that need to show their "documents" are those that come up as unverified to work or those that have changed their names without notifying the correct offices, i.e. women who change last names when getting married, whether they be white, black, hispanic, asain, etc.
ReplyDeleteQuit making this a race based issue when it clearly is not, there is no racial profiling in the bill, it applies to everybody. So, now kindly point out the racial profiling that you think is in it.
You think we live in a "Free Society", think again, it has never been "Free". There are rules and boundaries at every turn. You clammer about free society yet you probably want universal health care. You want the govt to take care of you. We have never been a "Free Society", we have always had someone over our shoulder, even in the beginning as colonists.
Look to smoking bans, a free society would allow smoking anywhere, however, there are now limitations to where one can smoke as to not offend another. Freedom of Speech, if I say something Libel to or about you, you can sue me, where is my freedom of speech, its now gone because you were offended. No, we are not nor have we ever been a "Free Society", rules and boundaries have always been in place to keep order.
That's right Pro Inmigrant, the ANTI's would like to keep that hush hush, they would like everyone to forget when the white immigrants first crossed the Atlantic and landed, they TOTALLY wiped the native American off the map and brought millions of slaves against their will, and they have the nerve to use that same racial profiling today to judge millions of legal and ILLEEEEEGAL citizens, DISGUSTING
ReplyDeleteLiquid,
ReplyDeleteApparently you as a non Hispanic descendency do not know how we have been segregated, racial profiling in many ways.
Example: DMV=Diver license.
As a Hispanics we have our last name and mothers last name.
The DMV used your mother last name on purpose of identification rather your Father last name.
Social Security= traceability.
The Social security use your father last name and a number for traceability purpose and not mothers last name even it shows on our ID's, Driver license. Why is that? There is a non structural path and aligment on different goverment agencies.
Know when you passed a bill related to Immigration who are you supposed to verify the proof of authenticity of Documents? Non Hispanics or Hispanics?
Just go to Arizona, Oklahoma and see for yourself if they are going to ask you for proof of documents as a non Hispanics....
I will gladly show any identification needed and will not complain if I am stopped, if it means we will be able to deport the millions and millions of illegal aliens who have flooded our country.
ReplyDeleteI will gladly say that last poster is total BS
ReplyDeletepro, no we are no longer a nation of immigrant but a nation of Americans who have been here for generations now. When I was born, native indian culture was not traditional America anymore and I had nothing to assimilate to as my parents were also traditional Americans.
ReplyDeleteWho is this "we" you speak about? Those people are long dead and gone and a new country was formed called the USA. None of us alive today are responsbile for the past.
anon1, no one is forgetting about the past but it has no relevance to today. All those people are dead and gone now.
ReplyDeleteAre you also forgetting that the White Spaniards did the same thing as the Ango-Whites to the natives? You know those ancestors of today's Hispanics? They have no room to talk.
If you don't like law enforcement doing what they are supposed to be doing by questioning certain people, why don't you bitch to the government rather than to us?
Pat,
ReplyDeleteAs I have reported Blackwater is after the security contract if SAVE passes.
Their unmanned aircraft has already been tested. We will live in a military state if this heinous bill passes.
Additionallly, each town that has passed a restrictionist law has experienced Racial Profiling and severe impacts to the local economy. The Additional Sweeps in the bill will surely instill fear in all Brown people being racially profiled. eVerify is not the issue. it is the other negative aspects of the bill that will create a military state!
Hran,
ReplyDeleteI am for comprehensive immigration reform and I have repeated my view many times.
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions for exploitive employers
3. bringing the 12M out of the shadows and into some type of legal status.
Improving the backlogged immigration policies.
anon 1:
ReplyDeleteHistory lesson:
1. If you are a descendant of the SPANISH then your ancestors were way worse to the Native Americans.
2. As for ethnic war, ethnic cleansing, human sacrifice, brutality, oppression of other ethnic groups: the Aztecs and Mayans were far worse than the whites in North America. The Aztecs had an empire. They enslaved the tribes around them. That's why it was easy for the Spanish to make alliances with the oppressed tribes against the Aztecs.
The DMV used your mother last name on purpose of identification rather your Father last name.
ReplyDeleteActually the applicant fills out the forms, it is the applicant that writes his/her name. It is not the DMV that fills out the forms. Ignorance on behalf of the applicant is not DMV's fault. Most "Immigrants" who apply for a Drivers License use the two different last names to obtain two different license, they use one for tickets that they never pay, the other for ID purposes. Its called cheating the system.
As for SS, they use what ever last name you wrote down, so if you write both parents hyphenated last name, they actually put both on there in the order you write it down. I just went through all of this with my wife, who is an Immigrant from Portugal. I have been there during the entire process, forms being filled out, etc.
"There is a non structural path and aligment on different goverment agencies."
Blame the government for the ignorance of the applicant? You have got to be kidding me.
As for AZ and OK, I have family in OK, they are doing just fine, they are happy with the laws. I have friends I went to school with living in AZ, they are extremely happy with the laws and Arpaio. As for showing ID, I already explained, everybody shows ID all the time, go back and re-read my posts.
The only one DISGUSTING here is you ANON1, you contribute nothing at all.You need to wipe that brown stuff off the tip of your nose, you are starting to smell funny.
ReplyDeleteYou need to look further back than just the White man "TOTALLY WIPING" out the Native North American Indians. They are still here. You better look to the Brown Invaders that occupied the West Coast and Central America. They did just as much, if not more. But that wouldn't go with your racism, now would it?
More Racial Profiling, oh my. Its either that or the Race Card on your behalf I guess, pathetic.
Dee said.
ReplyDelete1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions for exploitive employers
3. bringing the 12M out of the shadows and into some type of legal status.
I see you finally put them in a correct order. Yet you still argue against Securing our borders, and you still argue against anything that will make the employer responsible. Words must just be words to you, the only action you want is the action of bringing the 12M+ out of the shadows.
But Hran, they (Anon1 and ProInmigrant and Jim) can only go back as far as WHITE America. They are so racially biased they see in WHITE only as all the problems relate to WHITE INVADERS having caused the problems of today. Until they can see the full spectrum they will always be biased with hatred towards WHITE.
ReplyDeleteMore of your idiotic exaggerations, dee. I want law enforcement to go after those who fit the description of a law breaker. We are a nation of laws. Why would any "brown" person have anything to fear if they are questioned and they are guilty of nothing and can provide proper I.D., why the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth? You can scream "racial profiling" all you want but if one has nothing to hide what is the big deal?
ReplyDeleteLiquid, You and your ANTI side are so blinded by your own hatred that you do not see reality.
ReplyDeleteI will give you one thing. You are not as blatant as Pat or the new Anon. It is clear they are anti Latino, in every breath they speak about a return to Anglo Northern European White America.
What the rest of us are advocating is a welcoming, multi cultural society where All Americans, of any color, of any ethnicity are welcome and are equal! We are not the haters. Your side is!
Stop with your lies about me, dee! I am not anti-latino. I am anti-illegal immigration. STOP WITH THE LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI have never advocated an all white country, only that our culture remains the traditional one since it's founding. Just like Mexico wants to remain Hispanic culturally. Why can't you grasp that?
We have plenty of diversity. So what is your gripe? Since when isn't every citizen of this country regardless of ethnicity not treated equally by our government?
You are being particularly insulting and nasty tonight. Hitting the bottle again?
The PROs advocate a welcoming, multi cultural society where All Americans, of any color, of any ethnicity are welcome and are equal!
ReplyDeleteLiquid said: The DMV used your mother last name on purpose of identification rather your Father last name.
ReplyDeleteActually the applicant fills out the forms, it is the applicant that writes his/her name. It is not the DMV that fills out the forms. Ignorance on behalf of the applicant is not DMV's fault.
You are right: That's part of ignorance by your part and some of those called Patriots.
You should contact DMV and found out. Simple and correctness.
That's not the applicant fault. It is the flaws on the system of the DMV as well as other goverment agencies.
http://www.klas-tv.com/global/story.asp?s=6090641&ClientType=Printable
http://governing.com/archive/2003/jul/dmv.txt
Do you remember the watchlist terrorist: The system mistakenly flags over 3000 people that they do not have anything or any ties to being a terrorist or linked to any groups at all. Just because their names were mistakenly matched with those appearing on federal watch lists.
And i can go on and on but it's your responsability as a Citizen to know that our system does not work. I am hoping that this information will help you not being a narrow minded and being open to a constructive solutions.
Dee said,
ReplyDelete"What the rest of us are advocating is a welcoming, multi cultural society where All Americans, of any color, of any ethnicity are welcome and are equal! "
This brings up an interesting point: should non-white immigrants, who came to reside in the US strictly by personal choice, be entitled to preferential treatment (minority set-asides in government contracts, race-related slots in university admissions, etc) over similarly qualified white native-born US citizens?
If so, what is your justification?
Brent,
ReplyDeleteGood question, and in my opinion, the answer is emphatically, "No." Immigrants should not be entitled to programs intended to right the historical wrongs perpetrated on black Americans or native American Indians.
It's pretty easy to make such exclusions in practice, too.
Pro said:
ReplyDelete"You should contact DMV and found out. Simple and correctness.
That's not the applicant fault. It is the flaws on the system of the DMV as well as other goverment agencies."
You are aware that each state has its individual Drivers License' and it is not a Federal Issued document.
Now the link you provided shows a security flaw in Nevada's kiosks which allow a user to use a credit card to pay for reg. and similar activities. From the article:"But the 29-page legislative audit may give Doyle pause. It states the Department of Motor Vehicles uses encryption standards for your credit card data that are not up to industry standards." Its a security issue with using credit cards, bad encryption. It has nothing at all to do with applying for and/or receiving a drivers license. It does not cover your argument earlier, it is a security issue with their encryption. "What the audit says is that we have the proper controls in place, and we did at the time, they just needed to be tightened some." "And it pointed out vulnerabilities. There hasn't actually been any data breaches or real problems that this has turned into for anyone. "
This is an isolated incident to the state of Nevada, not throughout the rest of the states.
Nice try though.
Constructive solutions, such as....
All systems in the beginning have flaws, the computer you are on has many flaws in its programming, yet you are here on line, right. Your argument is what exactly? That systems make mistakes? Everybody knows that, thats when you the person who has the mistake gets to go down and rectify the problem. So now, what exactly is the problem?
No, the pro's want to Hispanicize this country. They only hide behind the skirts of wanting a multi-cultural society. It is all smoke and mirrors on their part. We know their true agenda. They want to be the new majority in this country and are hoping to acheive it thru illegal immigration. Well sorry, dee but we white anglos have just as much right to retain our majority in this country as do Hispanics in the 22 countries that they are already the majority in.
ReplyDeleteJim said,
ReplyDelete"Immigrants should not be entitled to programs intended to right the historical wrongs perpetrated on black Americans or native American Indians."
This is one of the few areas (based on my reading of your other posts) where we agree 100%. I believe that the native Americans whose ancestors' presence in what is now the US are entitled to preferential treatment, as well as those descendents of slaves brought against their will from the African continent. Both groups were subject to government-approved (or even government-sponsored) oppression and deserve affirmative action programs as a form of reparations. Anyone else who has voluntarily taken up residency in the US from a foreign nation - or their offspring - do not deserve such preferential treatment, regardless of their ethnicity. Unfortunately, Federal policy says otherwise.
"It's pretty easy to make such exclusions in practice, too."
Pretty easy from a practical, technical standpoint (althought fraud would undoubtedly be a problem). But it would be politically impossible.
I notice that Dee hasn't weighed in on this issue.
I find it humorous when the PRO's keep telling the truth about the ANTI's and the ANTI's get upset and whine, for example, "Stop with your lies about me, dee! I am not anti-Latino. I am anti-illegal immigration. STOP WITH THE LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" The truth is the truth, and if your hatred wouldn't blind you so much you'd realize how idiotic you ANTI's sound
ReplyDeleteanon 1,
ReplyDeleteTry to contribute something substantive to the debate, please. The pointless name-calling is not conducive to intelligent discussion.
Thanks.
No anon1, for the most part the pro's do not tell the truth about the anti's, they just pull the race card with nothing to back up their claims.
ReplyDeleteBrent,
ReplyDeleteSorry for being late to respond. I missed your comment earlier.
I will answer your question: "should non-white immigrants, who came to reside in the US strictly by personal choice, be entitled to preferential treatment (minority set-asides in government contracts, race-related slots in university admissions, etc) over similarly qualified white native-born US citizens?"
I take your usage of "preferential treatment" to mean Affirmative Action.
In concept, as defined, I think it is a good idea. The concept is different than your suggestion which excludes Non Black, Non Native American. (from your 2nd comment) Notice the concept includes past AND CURRENT.
AA Concept: "The term affirmative action describes policies aimed at a historically socio-politically non-dominant group (typically, minority men or women of all races) intended to promote access to education or employment. Motivation for affirmative action is a desire to redress the effects of PAST AND CURRENT discrimination that is regarded as unfair."
When I think of the concept, being in Business for over 30 years, I understand the need for these types of programs. Back in the 70s, the good ole boy (GOB) network was running rampant through Corporate America. The proverbial GOB and all of his college buddies were securely embedded in the upper echelons of most Corporations.
The Civil Rights and Womens Rights Movements were needed to first, address the fact this was happening, then 2nd, to put in place measures to improve the fairness in staffing processes.
I have participated in management study groups of corporations and their hierarchy. If you study the demographics of an employment location vs the employees themselves, the ethnicity mix should match. There should also be a corrolation in the rate of management vs ethnicity of employees.
Back in the 70s and 80s most companies hired and fired based purely on management decision. In other words, supervisors promoted their friends. Now, many leading corporations utilize a bidding process with set standards for promotability. In order words, anyone can bid for a supervisory or management job as long as they meet the criteria. The criteria is determined via annual appraisals. Appraisals are determined based on measured work performance. As more and more corporations utilized these processes, they found their company performance improved as well as the management skill sets of their managers. When you utilize these performance measures, staffing becomes color blind. Affirmative Action is rarely used and only used when all other measures are equal and used as a tie breaker. That is, all things being equal, the ethnicity mix would be a one stroke factor.
What was interesting through studying the results of these corporations is, once they progressed to a performance driven staffing model, their ethnicity mix improved and did, in fact, begin to match the demographics of the local areas.
Now from my perspective, Race Related slots in universities is a different subject. I only have opinions on this and no statistical data.
ReplyDeleteGiven the fact most students who are interested can attend a University and are eligible, based on grade point to attend the University of their choice, I don´t know that this is a huge issue. Anyone interested in applying for a grant can reach out to many groups or websites and apply for many grants or scholarships. So many are availble for interested students with high to semi high grade point averages.
I am a bit skeptical to any claims of reverse discrimination. I would have to study the issue and receive the names and circumstances of any claimants so I can study the issues myself.