Monday, September 3, 2007

Do You Think the Crackdowns will Lead to Severe Labor Shortages?

Do you think the Crackdowns will Lead to Severe Labor Shortages?

Immigration crackdown will be disastrous, experts predict
Hundreds of thousands of workers will lose their jobs as a result of the federal government's crackdown on companies that employ illegal immigrants, business lobbyists predict.

This will lead to severe labor shortages in some industries and eventually weaken the overall economy, they contend.

"It's a disaster for us," says Craig Silvertooth, a lobbyist for the National Roofing Contractors Association.

...

The new regulation, combined with the stiffer penalties, will lead to widespread layoffs and discrimination against Hispanic workers, business lobbyists predict.

"People are going to get scared," says Laura Reiff, an immigration attorney at Greenberg Traurig's McLean, Va., office and co-chair of the Essential Worker Immigration Coalition.
Many workers will just walk off the job when they are told there is a problem with their Social Security number, she adds.

"It's going to have a dramatic impact on the workforce," Reiff says.
That's just what many anti-immigration groups are looking for.

69 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

In short, NO!!!! Companies are already laying off workers, especially in the new Home Market, Construction, Roofing, etc., mainly due to the housing market downturn. Auto manufacturers have been laying people off as well. Company takeovers cause people to be laid off, too.

What does any of it have to do with 'Illegal Immigrants'? All of this and the growing economy ='s those American Citizens that are working are producing more.

Liquidmicro said...

"Hundreds of thousands of workers will lose their jobs as a result of the federal government's crackdown on companies that employ illegal immigrants, business lobbyists predict." If they are working with forged documents, then they deserve to be released and the business owner deserves to lose his company!

"This will lead to severe labor shortages in some industries and eventually weaken the overall economy, they contend." Nothing like using 'Illegal Immigrants" for all the reasons they can! There are no Severe labor shortages anywhere except in Agriculture, but farmers don't want to use the H-1B Visa because they have to provide things for the worker such as housing, transportation to medical appointments and Hospitals, etc., to much of a burden I guess for cheap labor, farmers own fault.

""It's a disaster for us," says Craig Silvertooth, a lobbyist for the National Roofing Contractors Association." Cheap labor, greater profit, blame the bursting of the bubble.

...

"The new regulation, combined with the stiffer penalties, will lead to widespread layoffs and discrimination against Hispanic workers, business lobbyists predict." Why is it just discrimination against the Hispanic workers? What about the Russians, Irish, Asians, being laid off as well? What about the American Citizens that are and have been laid off? How does it feel to be laid off? Welcome to America!!!

""People are going to get scared," says Laura Reiff, an immigration attorney at Greenberg Traurig's McLean, Va., office and co-chair of the Essential Worker Immigration Coalition.
Many workers will just walk off the job when they are told there is a problem with their Social Security number, she adds." Why would they walk off the job if they are 'LEGAL WORKERS', I understand why the 'Illegal Immigrants' would walk off the job, because they were found out for using forged documentation, they deserve to be unemployed. They deserve nothing less than a free ride back to their country of origin and loss of all properties accumulated while being here 'ILLEGALLY'!

""It's going to have a dramatic impact on the workforce," Reiff says.
That's just what many anti-immigration groups are looking for." It's going to have an impact only on the 'Illegal Immigration' work force and population, not the American Citizen.

patriot said...

This is the USA, we are noted for being a Christian country. Christians do not operate under immorality. Doing anything illegally does not fit in with those Christian principles. There will be no huge labor shortage but if even if there is, those businesses deserve what they get and so do those who have broken our immigration and labor laws.

There will be no discrimination against Hispanic citizens or legal immigrants. How could there be when they have proof that they have the right to work in this country? Those who would walk off the job would only be the illegals. Good riddance!

Who in this country is anti-immigrant? These are just arguments based on lies.

Liquidmicro said...

"but farmers don't want to use the H-1B Visa" Should state H-2A Visa not H-1B.

An H-2A visa allows a foreign national entry into the U.S. for temporary or seasonal agricultural work. There are several requirements of the employer in regards to this visa. First, they must pay the AEWR, or an adverse effect wage rate that is determined by surveys of agricultural employers. This serve to prevent the depression of wages for US workers in the same field. Each state has its own AEWR. Housing must also be provided and approved by a state workforce agency as well as the local health department. Also, workers are guaranteed 3/4 of the work in the contract period of employment. Also, the employer must pay for housing.

The H-2A temporary agricultural program establishes a means for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring nonimmigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature. Before the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) can approve an employer's petition for such workers, the employer must file an application with the U.S. Department of Labor stating that there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available, and that the employment of aliens will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers. The statute and Departmental regulations provide for numerous worker protections and employer requirements with respect to wages and working conditions that do not apply to nonagricultural programs. The Department's Employment and Training Administration (ETA) administers the labor certification program, while the Wage and Hour Division, Employment Standards Administration (ESA) has responsibility for enforcing provisions of worker contracts.

Dee said...

One thing we cannot deny are the labor shortages in America. I still believe in CIS and bringing the 12M out of the shadows. Ultima and I discussed their filling the needs in staffing jobs where the shortages are. I´ll be listing some articles detailing the shortages.

Dee said...

GRAYING POPULATION IN MAINE: New challenges seen as Maine's population ages
AUGUSTA, Maine - With the nation's oldest population, Maine faces some of the most daunting economic challenges that are shared throughout New England.

Maine's future is gray.

Already the state with the nation's oldest median age, Maine will see its elderly population nearly double between 2000 and 2030, the state planning office says.
....
And as Maine's older population increases, its younger population is decreasing.

Dee said...

Report from Pepperdine University: Future Labor Shortage

According to the Employment Policy Foundation (EPF), a systemic labor shortage is expected to transform the workplace over the next 25 to 30 years as the gap between baby boomers and entrants of college-educated workers widens due to the boomers’ mass retirements. If the U.S. economy continues to grow at three percent per year—the economy’s consistent average since 1948—the workforce will have to increase by 58 million employees over the next three decades if the same rate of productivity is maintained. Yet, if the current population trend continues, the number of workers will only increase by 23 million. This trend would create an overall U.S. labor shortage of 35 million workers.[1] Most of these projected shortages are expected to involve workers having specific skills.

The consequences of such a skilled worker shortage at the national level would be substantial. Results would include: reduction of the growth in the standard of living, compared to historical trends; higher wage-push inflation; potential decreases in international competitiveness, and even the erosion of future domestic production capacity.

Liquidmicro said...

Notice how your argument states, "Most of these projected shortages are expected to involve workers having specific skills."

Specific Skills is key, the US already has the Skilled Visa's offered, this will limit the amount of 'Border Jumpers' as they do not have the required skills that you argue, bye-bye. Sure there are some that may have these skills, but they already used their visa to enter the US and may have possibly not renewed it/overstayed it.

ultima said...

"People are going to get scared," says Laura Reiff, an immigration attorney at Greenberg Traurig's McLean, Va."

Best news I have read all day. Too bad a few of the immigration attorney bottom feeders don't also get scared and find a new profession.

ultima said...

My gosh, construction and roofing companies might actually have to raise wages to a fair level so citizens can make a living and support their families.

ultima said...

Time to wean ourselves from go go a population-driven, unsustainable economy. If we did this, there would be no need for millions of illegals.

ultima said...

"This will lead to severe labor shortages in some industries and eventually weaken the overall economy, they contend."

Perfect timing for a paradigm shift in our economic policies and goals to adjust to a stable population objective.

ultima said...

"It's a disaster for us," says Craig Silvertooth, a lobbyist for the National Roofing Contractors Association.

If you expected a cheap labor lobbyist to say anything different from this, this is no surprise.

Dee said...

The Denver Outlook

Farmers in Colorado Struggle with Labor Shortage
TOM BEARDEN, NewsHour Correspondent: On the Pisciotta family farm just outside Pueblo, Colorado, workers are weeding and pruning the onion crop, preparing for the fall harvest. But they aren't typical farm laborers; they're inmates of the nearby state prison.

They're in the fields because the migrant workers that usually do this kind of work are not. The women volunteers are part of a pilot program that five local farmers are trying out. Joe Pisciotta pays the state over nine dollars an hour per worker, which is more than the typical hourly wage for this kind of work. He says, without this program, his onion, watermelon and pumpkin crops would have suffered.

JOE PISCIOTTA, Vegetable Farmer: We need them. We've got a lot of money invested in that crop up to harvest time, and if we don't have the people here to harvest them -- we've tried local people. We've tried unemployment agencies, and they just -- people just don't do that kind of work.

Dee said...

Shortages in Montana -- Fox News
Help Wanted: Employers in West Can't Find Enough Workers

HELENA, Mont. — The owner of a fast food joint in Montana's booming oil patch found himself outsourcing the drive-thru window to a Texas telemarketing firm, not because it's cheaper but because he can't find workers.

Record low unemployment across parts of the West has created tough working conditions for business owners, who in places are being forced to boost wages or be creative to fill their jobs.

John Francis, who owns the McDonald's in Sidney, Mont., said he tried advertising in the local newspaper and even offered up to $10 an hour to compete with higher-paying oil field jobs. Yet the only calls were from other business owners upset they would have to raise wages, too. Of course, Francis' current employees also wanted a pay hike.

"I don't know what the answer is," Francis said. "There's just nobody around that wants to work."

Unemployment rates have been as low as 2 percent this year in places like Montana, and nearly as low in neighboring states. Economists cite such factors as an aging work force and booming tourism economies for the tight labor market.

For places like Montana, it has been a steady climb in the nearly two decades since the timber and mining industry recession. The state approached double-digit unemployment levels in the 1980s and began the slow crawl back in the early 1990s.

"This is actually the biggest economic story of our time, and we don't quite grasp it because it is 15 years in the making," said economist Larry Swanson, director of the O'Connor Center for the Rocky Mountain West at the University of Montana.

The U.S. Department of Labor reports the mountain West region — covering eight states along the Rocky Mountains — has the lowest overall unemployment rate in the nation. The region hit an all-time low of 3.4 percent in May.

The effects are everywhere. Logging equipment in Idaho sits idle as companies have a tough time finding workers. A shortage of lifeguards has forced Helena to shorten hours at children-only pools. A local paper in Jackson, Wyo., has page after page of help wanted ads.

Liquidmicro said...

The female inmates are doing a fine upstanding job. Should be happening more. Now, the farmers have the ability to apply for the H-2A visa's yet "THEY' choose not to, who is really to blame? I say let the farmers lose, eventually they will do things the right way according to the rules and everybody will be happy again. Mechanization is also another avenue they choose not to go down, modern times call for modern equipment.

Liquidmicro said...

"and so for the first time the resort also sent recruiters to a high school job fair"

This use to be the norm, they should have been doing it all along.

"Established baby boomers, including retirees, have been moving into Montana for the mountain views and recreation, bringing with them money for new homes that fuel construction job growth, said Swanson.
Along the way, younger people have moved away searching for bigger paychecks as the state's wages still lag behind other areas and are slowly increasing overall. Now, the aging work force is unable to expand to meet the demands of the job market, Swanson said.
He said the problem is compounded by the fact that employers, accustomed to paying relatively low wages, have been slow to increase salaries. Montana wages have historically been among the lowest in the country, and still rank near the bottom. The silver lining for workers is that wages are now growing at the third-fastest rate among U.S. states.
Now, workers with more options in some places are unwilling to take $12-an-hour jobs.
The problem could get worse as more baby boomers retire, Swanson said. By 2030, Montana and Wyoming are predicted to have among the oldest populations in the U.S, with about 26 percent of residents 65 and older, Swanson said. That compares to 19.7 percent predicted nationally.
"We thought the labor force crunch wouldn't come until 2012, but it's already arrived in a lot of these fast-growth areas," Swanson said. As a result, "you'll find older workers working longer, people will sort of linger in the work force. The employers will make it worth their time to."
Swanson added the phenomenon of quasi-retirement with older workers cutting back on hours but still heading to the office will grow, while international workers will be drawn to the region. Younger workers who used to leave will find it worth their while to stay."

I think the answer to the situation has already been explained above in paragraphs 1 & 2. Number 3, Good for the Workers!!!

"In Utah — where unemployment rates have been hovering around 2.5 percent — amusement parks, trucking companies, telemarketing firms and others have been paying bonuses of hundreds of dollars or more to find workers."

Bonuses!!! WOW, that’s how it use to be before the flood of cheap labor, seems the WORKER now has more power than the employer, the way it should be.

patriot said...

Well the sins of illegal immigration are finally coming to roost. This overinflated economy was immigration driven. Time to cut our losses and scale down our economy to one that can be sustained by a citizen labor pool.

Quality not quantity is what our goal for the future should be.

Liquidmicro said...

Maine - what you don't mention....
"Bolstering Fortman's view, the planning office survey says population aging can "undoubtedly create new opportunities for Maine businesses, nonprofit organizations, and communities at large." For instance, an increase in older residents could stimulate demand for certain services and healthy retirees could boost volunteer ism that benefits communities."

Utah use to be what Maine is becoming, now Utah is the state with the youngest population. This is all attributed to migration of our elderly to places that are within their retirement savings to sustain themselves. The younger people also migrate, mostly to where the good paying jobs are for their line of work. Its all one big circle, what goes around, comes around.

Dee said...

Statistics

The Future Labor Shortage

The most comprehensive source on labor supply is the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), which uses a combination of census and labor force data.

The BLS projections estimate that workers age 55 and older will continue to increase as a percentage of the population well into 2050. Over the next seven years, the annual growth rate of the 55-years-and-older group is projected to be nearly four times that of the overall labor force. In 2011, the first boomers hit the accepted retirement age of 65. By 2030, the Baby Boomers will all be between the ages of 66-84.

Dee said...

part 2

Other statistics paint a frightening picture as well:

In 2002, 12.4% of the U.S. population was 65 and older. Over the next 30 years, this proportion will rise to 20%.(Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics)

There are 39.4 million people in the 26-35 age group versus 44.2 million in the 36-45 age group. (Source: Employment Policy Foundation)

The aging population is a global phenomenon. Other countries with similar predicaments include Russia, Germany, the UK, Japan, France and Spain. (Source: Employment Policy Foundation)

Over 50% of boomers lived in the following nine states (in 2000): California, Texas, New York, Florida, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan and New Jersey. (Source: MetLife Mature Market Institute)

Liquidmicro said...

And the population amount of school age students is 14% greater then the boomers during their school years.

Kind of nullifies not enough future workers, doesn't it!

Tanstaafl said...

Labor shortages? No. Higher wages? Yes. Lots of sob stories from black market businesses, collaborators, and ethnocentric fifth columnists? Absolutely.

The more important reason to deport the invaders is that it will reduce crime up to 40%.

Dee said...

Your numbers are based on anecdotal comments Tan.

We do need Comprehensive Immigration Reform, bring the workers out of the shadows and deport any felonious criminals. This will work best for all.

Dee said...

US Immigration Enforcement Initiative Impacts Businesses, Workers:

Business groups complain that they are being forced to act as immigration agents, and that the federal requirements will cause a worker shortage in key economic sectors, bringing production to a standstill. In agriculture, already there are reports of fruit and vegetables going unpicked, rotting on the vine.

As a result, some American farmers foresee huge financial losses, and a few are contemplating selling their land and moving overseas...

"You are going to see more agriculture outsourced," he said. "You are going to see more food grown in foreign countries. You are going to see [food] prices go up in some places. I do not think that is what Americans want."

Liquidmicro said...

OHHHHH the HORROR!!!! Farmers have their crops paid for by the government (subsidized), its called price protection. Vegetable growers get paid to plow the crops into the field.

Fruit rotting on the vines, damned wineries. No more Night Train. Barf.

Ag outsourced, one could argue its already happening as food is imported now more than ever.

Liquidmicro said...

Business groups will still do the very same paperwork that they have always done, new hire send in proper forms. SS and ICE will now be sending letters of no match, something they used to do, Company only has to verify information, something they are already suppose to be doing, verify with no match letter and employee, American Citizen or legal immigrant with proper documentation = no problem; Illegal immigrant with forged documentation = runs away to the next opening, thus lowering wages at the next company he/she works for. Employer, lost cheap laborer, now has to pay fair wage to legal worker.

How is this a problem for business groups and how are they being forced to act as immigration agents?

Tanstaafl said...

Anecdotal numbers. lol. That's right, only your numbers (like 12M) are correct.

Bring them out of the shadows, give them documents, and send them home.

The black marketeers will have to get a legitimate business, no more invaders killing or raping citizens, and our schools, hospitals, and jails will all suddenly have 10%+ less crowding.

How's that for comprehensive?

patriot said...

liquidmicro, you bring up some very good points. dee cries about the fruits rotting on the vines and yet as you pointed out the farmers have not taken advantage of the H-2A visas that have been available to them all along so that they have the needed workers. They would rather hire illgal workers because it is cheaper. So I don't want to hear anymore crying by dee about that.

The older worker is staying in the workforce longer too. I know of many retirees who have a part time job and have continued to work into their 80's even. They aren't all desk jockies either. They are more dependable too than many younger workers. Just think of that baby boomer generation working well past 6o years old, many will do just that.

Dee said...

The 12M accumulated to this number over 20 years. This is primarily due to the fact our own Admin and Corporate policies encouraged this to happen.

Bernanke and others have said the 12M contributed to our economy and helped us avoid a recession.

We are facing a severe labor shortage. Our economy would be devastated if there were a mass deportation of the 12M.

Given history and all that has happened to date, the only viable solution is to 1. secure borders,
2. sanction employers 3. bring the 12M out of the shadows and establish some path to guest worker or other legal status, perhaps to earned citizenship.

To think mass deportation will not devastate this country is naive.

Dee said...

Actually I agree with Employer Sanctions. Our immigration laws should be administered justly and fairly.

My one issue, due to our very own American policies over the last 100 years: the numbers has accumulated to 12M. We have to face and admit our own American accountability. Bring the 12M out of the shadows and establish some type of Guest Worker or legal status for the 12M. This, of course, will allow us to also identify the felonious criminals so they may be immediately deported.

Anyone who thinks our country will not be devasted if we mass deport the 12M is deluding themselves. We also cannot remain status quo.

What is sad is the reason many extremist ANTIs continue to bluster about the 12M is due to the eugenicistic philosophies so many of the extremist antis continue to foster and promote. We are a multi cultural society. We will continue to be a multi cultural society. We are a salad bowl of cultures, thriving and will continue to thrive as long as we remain united.

patriot said...

dee, why do you continue to repeat the same old things over and over when we have addressed every issue that you have brought up? You sound like a broken record.

Why do you think that those who have broken our laws should be allowed to continue to work here by being given papers to do so or worse yet be given citizenship? There are many people all over the world that could take their place, so your cry of a labor shortage doesn't cut it. Their replacements are waiting in the wings.

They were here helping themselves and those who would profit from them, not Americans and their country. I don't see any noble cause about that.

As I said you are an amateur blogger and debater because you just keep repeating the same old lies and rhetoric. Come up with something new to support your position, will you? We have shot huge holes in all of your old excuses.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, you have yet to argue for/against anything, you just keep repeating the same things and posting articles to try to justify your position.

As also stated by the media - most of the 'Illegal Immigrants' have entered this country in just the last 6 years.

Why should the average American have to pay for the damages done to this country by Corporations/Business/Government? They are accountable for the 'Illegal Immigrants' their numbers have gotten to the point that the American Citizen now demands action to be taken. The very same action that our laws require, yet Government/Corporations/Business have not enforced, now the people want enforcement and they are whining. Boo Hoo!!!

How is the economy going to be devastated if the 12-20 million are deported through attrition? They will self deport if there is no work for them. American Citizens are being laid off from large corporations all the time, companies are relocating across the border (Hershey just sent an entire plant south from CA, people lost their jobs yet you say nothing?), why doesn't any of this have an impact on the economy to you?

patriot said...

American citizens should not be held accountable for the sins of our government for the past hour or the past 100 years. If this truly would have been a democracy all along and the American people would have been able to vote on every move that our government has made, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. I am not giving my country away just because our government has been corrupt.

We already have several guest worker programs. Business has chosen to ignore them for higher profits. Recessions happened before illegal aliens even entered the picture and we will continue to have them with or without them. Recessions have little to do with how large or how small of a labor force we have. Maybe you should take a course in economics to see why recessions occur.

I fail to see what having, desiring or not desiring a multiculteral society has to do with the illegal immigration problem that we face today. Illegal immigration is about the violation of our laws, nothing else and it doesn't matter what some fringe groups think about it either. We will never have a united country as long as there are fifth columnists among us who do not stand up for the rule of law and place the interests of foreigners above the citizens of this country.

Liquidmicro said...

now the people want enforcement and they are whining. Boo Hoo!!!

they above references "Government/Corporations/Business/'Illegal Immigrants'

mirrorism said...

There are many people all over the world that could take their place, so your cry of a labor shortage doesn't cut it. Their replacements are waiting in the wings.

There are replacement produce pickers? Replacement construction workers? Replacement dish washers? Busboys? Meat packers? Where? Seriously, where? Mexico?

Why do people think that foreigners are lining up to immigrate here and take our worst, most low-paying jobs?

Why do people think that having legal workers doing the same low-paying jobs would change all of the social problems the illegal workers bring?

Fact of the matter is,--in this case--illegal workers are better for America than legal workers.




Why should the average American have to pay for the damages done to this country by Corporations/Business/Government?

Well, first of all, whether there are true damages is up for debate, but lets just say there are. You would then have to pay for those damages because average Americans vote them in.

Of course, that would mean taking responsibility for your actions, which is something we don't do as much as we used to. Maybe we can sue them? Class-action style.

rickmonday said...

No, there will not be a labor shortage. We already have some unemployed legal Americans here. They can pick up the void.

We should give significant fines and/or jail time to the leaders of the companies hiring illegals. And we should deport ALL illegals immediately.

This is not their country. They have already ruined their country and I dont want them ruining mine!

Dee said...

Pat, You ask why I repeat my Immigration position so often? Because I believe they will resolve our current immigration issues. They are logical and practical.

This reminds me:
Back in the 80´s, I was co-managing a center. After one of our staff meetings with our boss, one of my peers said to him "Why do you always listen to Dee?" He responded, "Because with all of the research and analysis she completes prior to making a recommendation, she is usually right."

Dee said...

Rick Monday,
Are you the real Rick Monday? If so, my husband says you were a very good ballplayer for the Cubs. Are you the same?

Dee said...

The facts I provided do prove we are in the midst of a labor shortage particularly for AgJobs (jobs Americans won´t do).

Economists are predicting these shortages will become severe within the next few years due to the aging baby boomers.

All economists indicate mass deportation as Rick just recommended is not feasible and would be devastating to our economy.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, I have shown disputes to all your facts through LAW, you repeat news articles that you claim as fact.

AG shortages are the farmers own faults, they refuse to use and apply for the H-2A visa, besides they get subsidized for their crops by the Government.

Mirror, It is true that American Citizens vote the politicians in, done so for the fact that they are suppose to represent us, however, the politician is easily swayed by the Corporations/Business waving money in their face (greed and power). Remember, they can be voted out just as quickly and or as easily as they were voted in. Now who really has the responsibility? the politician who becomes corrupt, or the average American Citizen?

Tanstaafl said...

The economists that predict devastation to our economy if we eject the invaders are the same ones that encourage us to erase our border. They don't know what devastation is. They don't live amongst the invaders and their kids don't go to school with them.

The housing bubble is bursting. Turns out we didn't need all that housing or all that illegal labor to build it. Those economists are sooooo brilliant.

Tanstaafl said...

mirrorism, like Geraldo and so many other ethnocentrists, thinks the invaders are not just our equals, they're better than us. And they all work!

Dee said...

Tan, I think we all should strive to get along.

You make such negative statements on your site against multi culturalism and quote extremist groups.

Can´t we all just get along?

mirrorism said...

Liquid, we don't vote for the politicians who can't afford to run multi-million dollar campaigns. Unfortunately, those politicians receive campaign contributions from big business and the ruling elite.

This will remain the status-quo until a viable third party--in reality, second party--emerges. Unlikely of course; we love choosing between douches and turds.

Tanstaafl said...

No dee, I can't "get along" with invaders or their advocates. I can however get along just fine with anyone, of any ethnicity, who is an American and puts America first.

Tanstaafl said...

Multiculturalism is a lie. You only have to look at the "diversity" it's delivering whereever the Ladeeenyos decide to settle. And for expressing that opinion, that description of reality I'm a hater, right dee?

That and a thousand permutations on that hater smear are all you invasion supporters have. Well you know what? I hate the invasion, I hate the invaders, I hate the traitors who enable and welcome them, and I hate the injustice of it all. Big surprise. I'm a human being.

You got anything else?

Liquidmicro said...

Actually Mirror, we do have the option to vote someone other than the running politician, through a write in vote, I always vote myself, funny though I never win the election.

Dee said...

Tan Dear, I have posted my position my position many times before. It is strong! It is accurate! It will help the country.

Gosh Tan, I do not call you a hater. I don´t have to. You do a very good job of it all by yourself.

patriot said...

Tan and liquid, you continue to shoot holes in everything that Dee claims, yet she continues to repeat, repeat.

Mirror, you are just like Dee you repeat yourself constantly. We already discussed the fact that there are poor people all over the world that would give their eye teeth to be able to come here and do low paying jobs. I am not opposed to some of them being Mexicans who didn't violate our immigration laws too. How about an even quota from those countries that are interested?

Of course having legal workers would fix many of our social problems. When immigrants come legally rather than sneaking in that shows they have integrity. When we have quotas from different countries, there is less chance of them colonizing rather than assimilating. Income taxes are paid and under a SS number that matches the employee. Medical insurance is usually offered to a legal employee and therefore the American taxpayer doesn't have to subsidize them in that way. There are other social ills that we would avoid but those are the ones that come to mind right now. "Illegal workers are better for America, than legal ones"? That will take some tall explaining.

Many times we vote in a politician that we feel we can trust and then they stab us in the back after they get elected. Many of us didn't vote for Bush and yet look what he has done. Are those of us that didn't vote for him respsonsible for his sins? Americans don't have a say so on a lot of issues directly by voting.

dee, you choose to believe research that agrees with your agenda and not the others that don't. There is such a thing as logic and common sense too. That is left completely out of the equasion with you. You don't look at the long term effects of a huge population growth either. It doesn't seem to bother you in the least that the demographics of this country are changing due to illegal immigration. Why should Americans want to become culturally or lingquistically like Mexico? We have our identity. Mexicans wouldn't want to become an Anglo country by the same method. Subtle changes through legal immigration is one thing but a complete transition of this nation becoming like Mexico through illegal immigration is quite another.

I agree with you, Tan. I will never get along with invaders and their ethocentric enablers. Our country's future is at stake here.

mirrorism said...

Actually Mirror, we do have the option to vote someone other than the running politician, through a write in vote, I always vote myself, funny though I never win the election.

Yeah, so? Doesn't change the fact that America, as a country, votes for the douche or the turd.




Mirror, you are just like Dee you repeat yourself constantly.

And you never answer my questions... I asked where; you agreed with Mexico, but suggested no other country.

We already discussed the fact that there are poor people all over the world that would give their eye teeth to be able to come here and do low paying jobs.

Discussing it doesn't make it so...

I want the names of the countries you want these people to come from. Again, they must be willing to take the same jobs the current batch of illegal workers take.

How about an even quota from those countries that are interested?

I don't care where they're from; I just want you to prove that there are millions out there willing and different than those already here.

When we have quotas from different countries, there is less chance of them colonizing rather than assimilating.

What countries?

Income taxes are paid and under a SS number that matches the employee.

So they would be eligible for income tax returns--guaranteed because of their low-paying jobs--and Social Security when they retire? How does that help us more than the current system in which they pay into the system but receive nothing back?

Medical insurance is usually offered to a legal employee and therefore the American taxpayer doesn't have to subsidize them in that way.

This is a point I would agree with if so many Americans were not without adequate health insurance.

Why would you think foreign workers working low-skilled jobs would be more likely to be offered health insurance than Americans?

That will take some tall explaining.

Not too much. You haven't been able to provide any adequate argument against that statement.

You have basically turned it into an issue of semantics of legal vs illegal; you simply prefer legal foreign workers even though they would cause the same problems--in reality, more--than illegal foreign workers.

Many times we vote in a politician that we feel we can trust and then they stab us in the back after they get elected.

Why do you feel they owe you more than they owe their big-money campaign contributors?

Are those of us that didn't vote for him respsonsible for his sins?

I find it funny that more and more people are claiming that they didn't vote for Bush, but somehow he received the majority of America's votes. Did you vote for Kerry? Or Nater? Was it Nater? Or did you, like most Americans, not vote at all?

Yes, every American that voted for him or for anyone else or didn't vote at all is responsible for what he has done. We are Americans, and like it or not, he being our president represents us.

Be embarrassed, but don't disown your own president.

Americans don't have a say so on a lot of issues directly by voting.

So, now we don't live in a representative democracy?

patriot said...

mirror, are you completely unaware that we have taken in immigrants from all over the world yesterday and that we still do today and not all are white collar workers? That should answer your question. Actually I can't believe that you would even ask where those workers would come from unless you have been living in a cave for the last 50 years. Pick a country, most any country and they will come as they always have.

I don't understand your argument that if legals pay income taxes and receive SS when they are eligible, that this would be a negative to our country. It would be no different than a citizen. You pay in, you file your income tax, get a return if so due and gain SS when you retire. Where is the negative in that?

Politicians owe us honesty and not to cater to busineses or special interest groups. They are elected to do what is best for this country and it's citizens as a whole and above all not dishonor our laws.

I think legal immigrants should come with the guarantee that they will have a job and that their employer will provide health insurance for them. It should be mandatory.

I wrote in the candidate that I wanted for president. Unfortunately he didn't win. I don't feel responsible for what Bush has done at all. I didn't vote for him. I think he should be impeached. I will disown any traitor to my country and so should you.

I think that all issues should be put to a vote by the American people. Get rid of congress. They are useless, except for a very few.

mirrorism said...

Pick a country? Your hubris is amazing.

Most of Europe--and a growing population of Asia--would not come over here and work in menial thankless low-paying jobs because they have it better where they're at.

Most do not have the mass problems with poverty and inequality that many Latin American countries have. They are not born into hopeless situations... In short, in comparison to the US, their situations are not as dire--in fact, some are better off--as those in Latin America; there's no desperate need for them to immigrate that fuels immigration today.

Therefore, they do not have the desperate populations that the US needs to draw its cheap labor force from.

You didn't even try to prove that they would be any different from the current crop of illegal foreign workers. Because they wouldn't; language barrier would still exist, their cultures would still be different, they would still take a generation--or more--to fully assimilate, they would not be able to relate to US politics, etc. etc.

What's so hard to understand? Right now illegal workers with fake SS#s are paying taxes while not being entitled to receive anything in return. You replace them with--or make them--legal workers and they would be entitled to receive income tax returns and Social Security.

It doesn't seem that you really love America as it stands with all the changes you want to make to it.

Tanstaafl said...

Here's another "anecdote" about invader crime.

patriot said...

mirror, from Wikipedia:

The top twelve sending countries in 2006, by country of birth: Mexico - 173,753, China, People’s Republic - 87,345, Philippines - 74,607, India - 61,369, Cuba - 45,614, Colombia - 43,151, Dominican Republic - 38,069, El Salvador - 31,783, Vietnam - 30,695, Jamaica - 24,976, South Korea - 24,386, Guatemala - 24,146, Other countries - 606,370.[8] In fiscal year 2006, just 202 refugees from Iraq were allowed to resettle in the United States.[9][10]

Are you trying to tell me that there are no poor blue collar workers coming in from any of these countries besides, Mexico?

On to your next remark. The difference between the illegals and the legals is that the legals would have the right to be here and not in violation of our immigration laws. As far as language and cultural barriers, if these legals don't all come from mostly one country and colonize as they are today, assimilation would occur much more easily.

Your argument about SS benefits doesn't cut it with me. I think those here in this country legally should be entitled to whatever part of the government coffers that they
they contributed to. Illegals working illegally did so by violating our laws. I really don't care what they contributed and can't get back. It can go for covering all their social costs for all I care.

What changes did I recommend beside allowing American citizens to have more of a voice and vote on our domestic issues. Only one, and yet you claim I want to make many changes. I want to make the change above because I DO love my country.

Dee said...

Tan, the problem with the websites you provide is they provide inaccurate, misleading or inaccurate information.

Your link re: % of undocumted criminals is extremely misleading. The article alludes the number is for illegal aliens in prison. However, when you go to the actual govt report it says:

1. noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally

So, first off, the premise of the article is inaccurate. This report is not about ILLEGAL aliens.

Second, this report also includes those "illegals" which were caught up in sweeps -- not guilty of a crime, but pending court proceedings.

Your article is so misleading, it is hardly worth publishing.

Until you and yours stop publishing information and misleading the audience with its contents, you will not be viewed as credible.

Tanstaafl said...

Yes of course dee, everything that contradicts your position is disinformation.

Tanstaafl said...

I think you and the other invasion cheerleaders are the ones who have to worry about a credibility problem.

rickmonday said...

Hi Dee,

No, I am not the real RickMonday. I grew up a cubs fan and decided to use his name as my screen name.

Thanks for this blog by the way. I can see that you try to keep it civil so that we can hopefully have an honest discussion.

Although aliens are doing a large % of the labor in Agriculture today, I really think that American citizens could pick up the slack. I know your position is different so lets just agree to disagree on this one.

The bigger question I have is: are these jobs that can provide a sustainable living? I mean I detassled corn here in the midwest when I was a kid. There were busses full of us and I think we got paid something like $5/hour back then. It was a great job for a high school teenager and it provided me some money to take dates to movies but I cannot imagine trying to provide for a family on that kind of income.

One other issue that really bugs me is the fact that very few illegal immigrants try to adopt the "american way".ie the language, the american flag etc..

Furthermore, what % of entitlements are going to illegals and what is it costing me in tax dollars. ie: healthcare, education, welfare, etc...

Overall we as a country are just trying to get by and to have a significant percentage of illegals come here and siphon our tax dollars off of the top, to me, is a big problem.

I look forward to your response.

mirrorism said...

Are you trying to tell me that there are no poor blue collar workers coming in from any of these countries besides, Mexico?

Your numbers are for foreigners who were granted legal residence in the US in 2006. They have nothing to do with the 12 million illegal workers who are in the US today.

The fact that they were able to gain legal residence in this country shows that they were better off to begin with than the desperate 12 million.

You still haven't convinced anyone that it's better for them to be legal--other than semantically.

You still haven't pointed out the differences between them and the current group of illegals.

The fact that half of the legal residents that were granted citizenship last year are from Spanish speaking countries nullifies your concern about them "colonizing," because they would be united by language regardless of the countries they come from. The fact that none of them come from English speaking countries shows that the language barrier would still exist.

As far as their assimilation; adult immigrants hardly ever assimilate fully. Their children, however, almost always assimilate--in this case, usually to the poor subculture of American society.

Who said they should be entitled? I simply pointed out the fact that those working with false SS#s do not receive any of the benefits that come with paying taxes; e.g. income tax returns and Social Security--that works out in favor of the US. You're the one who wants to replace them with legal workers who would be entitled to all the benefits of paying taxes--that would work against the US.

What changes did I recommend beside allowing American citizens to have more of a voice and vote on our domestic issues.

1. You want the president impeached.

2. You want to get rid of congress.

3. You want to directly vote on federal issues.

Technically, you can't impeach the president without congress, and we already vote on federal issues by voting for those who can vote on federal issues.

mirrorism said...

My point in all of this--which we've deviated from completely--is this: If you believe that there is a need for foreign workers and you prefer them to be legal--for whatever reason--then it makes the most sense to legalize those that are already here instead of deporting all of them and replacing them with legal foreign workers. Keep in mind that both the deporting of the illegal workers here and importing of replacement legal workers will come at a cost to us.

Dee said...

Rick, I lived in Chicago for a while and my youngest son was born there. He too is a Cubs fan. My husband still loves the Tigers/Lions since we grew up in MI.

If you notice, I posted the 1st 6 chapters of my book. Check out the link up in the left hand corner of my blog. In it I detail the life of a migrant worker. They make money when the whole family works, not just 1 or 2 people. That is how they save money as well.

I think Hispanics assimilate just like any other ethnic group (I am living proof). The issue is, we have seen a very high rate of immigration (and illegal immigration) from south of the border since Reagan´s 1986 so-called Amnesty. Generally, it takes a whole generation to assimilate. Therefore, I think, with time, there will be assimilation.

Regarding who will do the AgJobs: I do not see out of work Auto workers taking these jobs. I also don´t believe our children will do these jobs (yours or mine). I don´t want to say they are lazy, I think the reason is perhaps a feeling of entitlement or maybe even spoiled by their parents (us).

patriot said...

mirror, let's face it I have given you all the answers to your questions, you just don't them.
So what that the data I provided you are about legal immigrants and what countries they come from? The point is that many of these immgigrants would do manual labor jobs.

You just don't get it, do you? Were there 12 million people that entered our country either legally or illegally from any other country than Mexico? When you have that many people in this country from one ethnic group, assimilation is difficult if not impossible. These 12 million are not going to become citizens either.

Again, anyone working legally in this country should be entitled to tax benefits. Your argument about any possible tax savings by having illegal workers vs legal ones is irrelevant to me. That is where our laws come first and foremost with me.

Impeaching a president isn't making a change in our political system. It has happened before.

Getting rid of congress and allowing citizens to vote on the issues rather than them is still only one change.

It doesn't make sense to me to legalize law breakers. It was a failure in 1986 because all it did was encourage more illegal immigration. No matter what the cost, we should deport them and replace them with legal workers.

patriot said...

dee, there are hundreds of thousand of illegal aliens from mostly Mexico crossing our border each year. That is not condusive to assimilation when you have that many coming every year from one ethnic group and they have been doing it for decades now. They are colonizing cities all over America. You were never an illegal alien and you were born over 50 years ago when the number of Hispanics were low in this country. That is my point, "the numbers". So using yourself as an example of Hispanics assimilating today is not a good example.

Out of work auto workers? Are you kidding? Auto workers made over $20.00 a hour. You think they can pay the mortgage and support a family on an ag workers wage? American children are not spoiled and lazy for the most part. Many live in urban areas and would have a transportation problem getting to the fields. It makes more sense for them to take part time jobs at McDonalds, etc. But unfortanately Hispanics both legal and illegal have taken those jobs and they don't want to communicate with their co-workers in English. Why would American children feel welcome?

mirrorism said...

Patriot, you still haven't shown any differences between illegal foreign workers already here and potentially legal foreign workers waiting patiently abroad.

What you showed is that the majority of the ones here legally are from Spanish speaking countries or non-English speaking countries.

You believe that those same legal immigrants already here typically work low-wage manual labor jobs even though you have absolutely no evidence that shows that.

It is more likely that those immigrants possess desirable skills and contribute to the US, that is why they were granted legal residence; people like that are not working in the fields.

If you want to believe that there are millions of foreigners out there willing to work the jobs that illegal workers are and that they are any different than the current batch already here, go ahead, but don't act triumphant and condescending. You look ridiculous.

Wait, you believe all the 12 million are Mexicans? Really?

AGAIN: Very few of the 12 million illegal--or legal--immigrants will fully assimilate; their kids, however, will all assimilate.

Technically, no president has been impeached, at least not removed by impeachment. I'm pretty sure about that... If not tell me who has been removed by impeachment.

BTW, who would take over for the impeached Bush? Chaney? Na, he goes too, right? Well, guess who's next in line? Nancy Pelosi. LOL... I'm sure you'd love her.

LOL.. Getting rid of congress is a HUGE change; it practically changes our way of government from the federal to the local level.

Liquidmicro said...

Most of the 'Illegal Immigrants' that used to do the field work are no longer there, they moved up to the construction jobs, etc., now with the market collapsing they are not returning to the fields. So what are we suppose to do? Allow in more 'Illegal Immigrants', newly arrived ones, come to pick the crops? OR do we make the farmers obtain the H-2A visas like they should have been doing all along, keeping tabs on who enters and exits our country with that visa. We need to get rid of the employment agency middle man that the very few farmers use, and make the farmers responsible for the workers instead of the agency that provides nothing to the worker that is mandated of the H-2A visa.

We also need to get rid of the farmers subsidization allocations for surplus crops, thus cutting the amount of labor required and a big savings to the American tax payer.

patriot said...

I have encountered many a dense person before but you mirror, take the cake.

Repeating again for you. The difference between illegal and legal is one came here against our laws the other didn't. I think it is detrimenatal to what this country stands for to give illlegals amnesty or whatever term you and yours want to call it. We did this before and look where we are today. We should reward those who have been waiting patiently to come legally by making them their replacements but only where there is a need proven.

Just where is your proof that none of those legal immigrants are doing manual labor jobs? Are the ag jobs the only ones you come up with to use as an argument?

Three presidents went through impeachment hearings, Andrew Johnson, Nixon and Clinton. None were removed from office but Nixon resigned, so what?

I don't like any of Bush's potential replacements if he were impeached but anyone has to be better than him.

If Congress in not willing to honor the will of the people, then what do we have them for? We have long been overdue for change in this country at the top levels.

Bob said...

"It's a disaster for us," says Craig Silvertooth, a lobbyist for the National Roofing Contractors Association.

IOW: Roofers will have to stop hiring illegal aliens instead of paying decent wages to employ law abiding Americans. I call that a great improvement.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said..."My gosh, construction and roofing companies might actually have to raise wages to a fair level so citizens can make a living and support their families."

You got it bro. Without millions of illegals who work without fair wages and not paying employer taxes the employers will have to pay fair wages and taxes. Criminal employers who have been cheating American workers for years are supposed to be scared.

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