Wednesday, September 19, 2007

Finding a Middle Ground on Immigration Issues

One of the newer commentors on my blog uses the screen name "Rick Monday." He is not the real RM, the famous Chitown athlete. Our Rick is a thoughtful commenter although he is on the ANTI side.

This brings to mind something I´ve noticed about people who participate in these discussions. Most PROs and ANTIs are thoughtful people who have heard or read about the Immigration issues our country is experiencing, have strong opinions and post their views on the internet.

I´ve been participating in these discussions since May of 2006. Over the months, I have formed a rating scale of PROs and ANTIs. I rate them from 1 - 10.
1: PRO Extremists and Aztlanists
2: Greedy Big Business or Political PROs
3 - 4: Middle Ground PROs who believe in Comprehensive Immigration Reform (me)
5 -6: PRO or ANTI leaning middle grounders and go back and forth regarding various Immigration Reform recommendations
7 - 8: Middle Ground ANTIs who are against Comprehensive Immigration Reform
9: Mean, Angry or Righteous ANTIs (lots of bloggers)
10: Nut Case Extemists (KKK, Aryan Nation or anyone that promotes violence)

I view Rick as a 6. He cares about the issue. He leans toward the ANTI side but is willing to listen and discuss the issues. Sometimes he changes his mind. That´s a good thing.
I think the majority of Americans fall in the 5 - 6 range.

As more people study the issues, more and more will fall into this Middle Ground.

Maybe Comprehensive Immigration Reform is possible as more and more people educate themselves, study Immigration History, Current Events, participate on blogs and make up their own minds vs listening to various pundits with an agenda on TV or AM Radio.


patriot said...

The majority of anti's as you call them, do not form their opinions based on what the media reports or what any talk show host's views are. Give Americans credit for being able to research and think for themselves. We have much higher educations than most of the ones pouring over our border each day.

Knowing that illegal immigration is against the law, sets off bells in most American's heads and they are immediately opposed to it based on that. It is a no-brainer.

ultima said...

Patriot is right. Since illegal aliens have violated our borders, any comprehensive immigration reform that rewards these illegals with the right to stay and work must be opposed. There are other approaches to comprehensive reform that do not include mass legalization of those who violate our borders, trash or vandalize border properties and displace American workers by accepting substandard wages. Try writing a comprehensive bill that deals with those problems. Try writing a bill that curbs 14th amendment abuses. Try writing a bill that makes English the Official language of the United States to be used for all official government business at all levels of government. That would be a start on a comprehensive bill that anti-illegals could subscribe to.

Dee said...

First of all, Patriot and Ulty, I would rate both of you far differently than many other ANTIs that post on other internet sites. I am very fortunate that both of you and Liquid and others post on my site. Most posters here are very smart, they study the issues and are willing to discuss issues with me. (plus they try to beat me in arguments, but that is beside the point.)

Based on the scale I provided, I would rate Ulty a 6 (he is willing to compromise and is very knowledgable and level headed) and I would rate Patriot a 7 (also willing to discuss and does study).

As we all know, there are extremists on both sides, although the extremists do not usually post here.

Your side does have many 8 - 10s. (some very scary). And I also agree there are some pretty scary guys on the PRO side(1- 2s on my scale).

Dee said...

Ulty, I´ve said before I agree with your recommendations on job posting. I did not say mass legalization. We need a path to bring them out of the shadows and registration. Some type of work program would be feasible with a return to country of origin 2 months a year, as is standard with many guest worker programs. There are many options that we should discuss.

patriot said...

dee, this is where you go wrong. Let's say that after these jobs are advertised for Americans and there still are some unfilled positions. Why do you think that those illegals who were on those jobs and broke our immigration laws should be entitled to have those jobs back? I say they go back home to their countries of origin and the immigrants who have been waiting in line to come here legally should get them. The others should go to the back of the line. What say you?

Dee said...

Pat, The issue is many of them have been here for 5 - 20 years at our country´s invitation. The majority were hired by Americans. In many cases, particularly the rebuilding of the Southeast after the hurricanes, the government waived their illegal status and invited them. Think of the Venga a Michigan programs. The government recruits and brings them to pick their crops. This happens every day. For those that have been here contributing, let them be sponsored by their employers and provided worker status. I truly believe you will not see a vast number of Americans go for the AgJobs or even many of the construction jobs. e.g. the rebuilding of New Orleans. These jobs are going unfilled today.

patriot said...

So the longer you hide from the law the more reward there should be involved? Our country as a whole didn't invite these illegals. You forget that there are 300 million in this country and compared to that the employers who hired them and our politicians who looked the other way don't come anywheres near the majority of the population in this country. Are Americans to pay for the sins of a few?

You're right, most Americans won't do ag jobs but there are a huge number of Americans who work construction or at least use to before the illegals undercutted them at low wages.

Sorry, but I still think that these illegals should go home and wait their turn in line and I don't care how long they have been here. In fact, the longer they scoffed our laws and used fake documents to work here, the more adamant I am about my position on this matter.

Dee said...

Pat, My husband worked construction when we were first married. He went to school at night, finished his degree. Now he works in business.

We are ALL seeking the American Dream. The American Dream revolves around education and earning a living doing what you want to do.

I doubt any of our young kids want to seek their fortune in working Construction or AgJobs.

You know this as well as I do. You grew up like I did. Our parents worked manual labor. We went to school. We went on to higher education. We work in business.

No one is going back to the earlier jobs. We are advancing. Each generation and each new immigrant group goes through this progression.

This is what America is all about... the next Dream!! The future dream!! We are there seeking it. We continue to evolve.

The immigrants, legal or illegal, are in our previous path, reaching for the future stars.

I think this is all logical.

We need progression.

We need those seeking this same path.

patriot said...

Many Americans like working with their hands such as in construction, auto mechanics,etc. Not everyone is college material and not everyone wants to go to college. This is the way it has always been in America and will continue to be. There are white collar workers and blue collar workers, nothing has changed. Not everyone wants to be a doctor, lawyer or sit behind a desk everyday. Contruction use to pay a liveable wage, not anymore because of the competition from illegal workers.

ultima said...

Why We Disagree.

Disagreement about immigration is not peculiarly American. It exists in many countries of the world. Americans are split in half into nature and content. Not the nation but the people. The nation, at least for the moment, is totally and mystically unified, but each American is split into two halves. On the one side are his origins, European, Latin America, Asia; on the other side the enormous opportunities that confront him. We are a people who fled civilizations. Think of that. We are offspring who could not succeed under the established, civilized circumstances, whatever they were---and all of our backgrounds varied. We struggled through hardships to get to the new land, then we found a fantastically rich world. Having left the old countries penniless and hungry, our fathers had to convince themselves that they would build a better place. They taught that to their children. It created tremendous idealism. It created tremendous gullibility. The modern immigration movement is after all lip service to idealism. We want to continue the idealism of our immigrant past but pushing aside our gullibility we know that the instant we allow our past to color our thinking about the present and the future we are doomed.

The U.S., as a fantastically rich nation, exists only in the imagination of those who still live in the past. The U.S. is graying at the temples. Finite resources are in steep decline. Petroleum must be purchased in large quantities abroad. From the perspective of our highways and streets, our country is full.

Poverty may bring forth faith; affluence brings things -- wide screen tv, multiple cars, obesity. We must have faith so Americans have achieved faith in things. Therefore what the American people are faced with is a craving for reassurance that they have kept the faith, the universal faith of our immigrant fathers, the faith of loss and deprivation. Simultaneously the other half is a quivering maw of national sensuality - sensation, tactilities, gluttony, satiety - the essence of total self indulgence, making us dependent on our riches, faith's opposite.

We approach the problem of immigration with the knowledge that finite resources divided over an increasing number of people will ultimately mean a reduction in our quality of life and standard of living. We approach the problem of immigration knowing that more immigrants means more poverty. We know deep in our souls that millions of immigrants, illegal aliens and their progeny will inevitably mean that our standard of living must come into equilibrium with that of the poorer nations who send us their impoverished masses. The solution to this conundrum is apparent for all those who wish to see it. (paraphrased in part from Richard Condon's novel "Mile High")

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