Friday, September 7, 2007

Let´s Develop a Viable Comprehensive Immigration Reform Recommendation


I want to be the first one to say this. I want to be the first blog. I want credit for this. Mark down the date and time.

Today, the stocks were slammed!
They dropped 250 points.

The reason? Most economists agree.
The jobs report.
Why? Payrolls dropped by 4,000 in August. Yet, the unemployment rate held steady at 4.6%.

My, my what could the difference be?

I reported on August 20 that Illegal Immigration is significantly down.

Bernanke has told us time and time again that the 12M have allowed us in the USA to avoid a Recession.

Now, according to Wall Street, we are embarking on a Recession.

I am saying it here and now.

The immigrants (legal and illegal) from Latin America, the workers, have allowed us in our country, our USA, to avoid a Recession and a Depression.

Now, due to the anger, the rhetoric, the Xenophia, we, in the USA, are on the brink of a Recession and future Depression.

We need to Re-Think the Immigration Dilemma we are in.
We need to STOP all the ANGER.
We need to talk, discuss, establish Comprehensive Immigration Reform recommmedations and develop a Solution... A Bill we can ALL agree upon.

Let´s bring the 12M Out of the Shadows.
Let´s either put them in a Guest Worker Program or Path to Citizenship.
Let´s Compromise!!!!
Stop the Rhetoric. Stop the Red Faced Anger!!!

Unite America!! Unite!!
Let´s develop a Comprensive Immigration Reform recommendation we can ALL Live with!!

144 comments:

patriot said...

Illegal ENTRY is down but most of the 12 million illegals are still here. So how is this causing a downturn in our economy?

You are exposing yourself by only mentioning legal or illegal immigrants from Latino countries as being a help to this country. How racist of you!

There is anger over the violation of our soveriegnty and immigration laws. My, my surprise, surprise. No rhetoric nor any xenophobia. Is race card pulling your specialty?

Nothing is comprehensive that you want in immigration reform. You want the whole enchilada. Patriotic Americans will never live with your give-a-away of our country. One of these days it is all going to come to roost for you phoney Americans.

Dee said...

Pat, Please read the article and the references. Read the link to Investors Business Daily.

The documentation is all there!!!

Read. Study. Try to understand!!

Liquidmicro said...

The housing bubble bursting wouldn't have anything to do with any of this, would it? Far less construction going on, far less electricians, roofers, framers, concrete, asphalt, water pipe, sewer pipe, landscape, etc.... yes I think its all because of the foreign invaders that the economy has been good, RIGHT!!!! People now are getting tight with their money, buying fewer products, such as houses, cars, trips, etc... In your own words...ebb and tide. We've been on the downside of this hill for the past year, we're just now picking up steam, 3-5 years yet to go before we hit bottom.

Liquidmicro said...

I see references to 1987 and 1998, however no references to that of 'Illegal Immigrants'.

Countrywide just laid off another 900 workers (loan Officers) again because of a popped bubble, nothing to do with 'Illegal Immigrants'.

Since you claim the documentation is all there!!! Please show where there is a reference that all of this is due to 'Illegal Immigrants'.

I know they have a part in it with the defaults of home and auto loans (foreclosures and repossessions), I know they have cashed out and some have returned to Mexico with their new money and car, leaving the Citizens of the USA to pay their bills as usual.

Liquidmicro said...

I haven't figured out if you are truly NAIVE yet or not with your accusations!? You seem to believe what ever Bernanke says, yet don't have the ability to see for yourself. Truly disappointing.

Your so called topic research - pathetic.

James said...

Dee, Have you researched the affects of illegal immigration on legal immigration? Or the requirements for entry into the U.S. for legal immigrants? I will tell you that I am upset because it will take from 7-12 years for my mother-in-law to be allowed entry into the U.S.

The recent fiasco of "Immigration Reform" would have given benefits to people that have broken U.S. law that are not available to U.S. citizens, military veterans, nor legal immigrants.

Perhaps before trying to give so many benefits to people that are illegal (their choice), we should start the reform with immediate deportation (after completion of sentence) of immigrants convicted of felonies. We should also be checking the status of anyone arrested by police. Then perhaps we can discuss applying the same standards to "guest worker" programs that all legal immigrants are required to pass.

Apologize for the upset tone but I am tired of the cost to our education, medical, social services, prisons, etc. that is created by illegal immigrants while at the same time veterans and legal immigrants are denied most of the same services.

Dee said...

Liquid, It is obvious to me you cannot see the forest for the trees.

You´ve seen Bernanke and Grenspan articles I have posted in the past yet you discount them.

You have said this before and I beleive you: You are going to believe whatever you believe and no one, logic, truth, no one, will change your mind.

Lots of people are like you.

Dee said...

James, No need for apologies. You have every right to your opinion.

I agree with you. The felonious criminals should be identified and deported immediately. I have said this many times.

My concern has been with the 12M here. It has taken over 20 years for the numbers to accumulate this high. This is largely due to the open border policy, waivers, job offers, non-enforced laws both the Admin and Big Business have offered our Latin neighbors since the 1924 Immigration Act, especially the Reagan 1986 Amnesty. We have to take accountabilty and Reform has to be put in place and enforced going forward, otherwise we will continue status quo.

Regarding your mother in law, the current Immigration laws and processes are extremely cumbersome. It took my brother in law over 10 years to gain his legal status. We need to reform the process. I believe they are the way they are because that is how our Admin and Big Business want them. Cumbersome, Long and tedious.

patriot said...

You're right, liquid. I read the entire article and nothing was said that this downfall is due to it getting tougher for illegals to cross our borders. As I already said, most of the 12 million are still here, so how could it?

Some people have some strange logic to go along with their agendas.

ultima said...

Reality has not featured heavily in the thinking of the Pros. Stepwise, systematic reform is what is needed. With the fruition of each step a demonstration of the good faith of government and citizens. Comprehensive reform in a massive bill that solves all problems without solving any is not my cup of tea. Let's think in terms of a series of simpler bills that we can agree on with demonstrated results at each step before any other step can be taken.

Tanstaafl said...

Two lies.

1) We can see now that we didn't need all that cheap-only-if-you-don't-count-the-expenses immigrant labor those brilliant economists said we did.

2) It isn't the fault nor the responsibility of the American people to pay in perpetuity for the greed and treason of our leaders.

Go home now. We don't want you here. We don't need you here. Take your sympathizers with you.

And another lie:

3) The "economy" is heavily larded with factors driven by immigration and the churn created by it. Housing starts, construction of all sorts, the stock price of Home Depot, etc. To say that a crackdown on immigration will hurt the economy is like saying skipping McDonald's has made you lose weight. I say good for us!

Tanstaafl said...

dee, your brother-in-law is a legal immigrant? Gee, I thought your husband was American.

Dee said...

Well Tan, No one can ever accuse you of being short of Opinions.

We have seen these ebbs and flows of immigration before. We are in the midst of an ebb.

Of all the ANTIs, I do tend to agree with Ultima the most. He does allow for some compromise. His suggestion of taking some stepwise move towards resolving our issues may help some of the current issues. We certainly do need to do something immediately regarding the AgJobs, unless you are willing to go out and pick crops for 10 hours a day. Every day.

Liquidmicro said...

AG jobs... please... research subsidizing of crops, surplus o crops, farmers and paper farms. The farmers have been scamming the American Citizen for years. A little research will do you good.

Dee, its OBVIOUS to ME and many others you must be blind as a BAT.

Tanstaafl said...

More like an ostrich. A bat can't help its handicap.

Methinks dee must have one or more compadres in Ag to be so obsessed with AgJobs. And I'm still wondering how her American husband has a brother who's an alien.

There won't be shortages of produce due to any "crackdown" on illegals. First, because there is no crackdown. Second, because labor costs are only a fraction of the price, and even as the price goes up demand will go down. Economics 101.

If there's a disruption in the law of supply and demand it will come from strikes or vandalism or some other form of "peaceful" demonstration from our oh so friendly invaders.

Liquidmicro said...

You know Dee, I have searched for Bernanke stating that 'Illegal Immigrants' have kept us from a recession, but haven't found anything at all. Please link a URL to Bernanke stating this fact that you enjoy quoting so that we may all see for our selves.

Dee said...

Liquid, What I find interesting is how testy you get when you are losing an argument.

Dee said...

And, as I said, I am speculating this is the cause based on the reports of Payrolls dropping by 4,000 in August. Yet, the unemployment rate held steady at 4.6%.

I´m going to send an email over to Prof Borjas and one other person. I want them to investigate and see if I am on target. Will that be proof enough for you?

Liquidmicro said...

Speculating....

"I am saying it here and now.

The immigrants (legal and illegal) from Latin America, the workers, have allowed us in our country, our USA, to avoid a Recession and a Depression."

Looks to me you are proclaiming it!

ultima said...

I think Dee is writing about her sister's husband rather than her husband's brother. They would both be her brothers-in-law, wouldn't they?

See Hall of Shame: No admission charge.

http://ultima-2.blogspot.com/

ultima said...

Senator Kyl(R.,Ariz) recently introduced the Immigration Enforcement and Border Security Act (S. 1984), which is a reflection of the concerns of a number of senators. These senators believe that the United States could do much more to combat the crimes committed by illegal aliens. Among other things, the bill would require DHS to help identify aliens incarcerated in U.S. jails before they are released, and to take custody of those aliens within 72 hours of apprehension or at the conclusion of any prosecution.

Can we agree on this as a first bill?

ultima said...

Bill #2: Simplification of the H-2A visa application procedures to assure that any demonstrated need for ag jobs can be met without resorting to illegal aliens labor. Should specify how an employer can demonstrate his need, recruiting practices, and the type of ID to be issued (tamperproof , biometric photo ID with thumbprint that specifies agriculture and horticulture as the only authorized employment)

ultima said...

Bill #3: All of the border security and enforcement provisions of S.1639 plus benchmarks for demonstrated results in terms of increased deportations, workplace apprehensions, and reduction in both the number of border apprehensions and the illegal population.

ultima said...

Bill #4: Employer and Illegal Sanctions: Employers to be fined on an escalating scale for every illegal in his employ, mandatory employer health care coverage for all foreign workers, jail time after the third incident of illegal hiring.

For illegals: immediate removal to a detention center where a quick deportation decision is made with a one week deadline for any appeal of that decision. Jail time for repeat offenders. Deportation at the expense of the employers, the illegals or their homeland govenment.

ultima said...

Bill #5: Citizenship and Permanent Residency.

Anyone who enters the US illegally or who overstays a visa is automatically barred from permanent residency.

Children born in the US who has at least one parent who has been granted permanent residency or who is a citizen will be granted citizenship on their 18th birthday. Up until a child reaches his or her 18th birthday, it will be illegal to leave them behind if the parents are deported. Minor children must accompany deported parents.

Aliens who are granted permanent residency are generally not eligible for citizenship unless they are completely fluent in English and can pass a difficult civics test.

ultima said...

Bill#6: Chain immigrations are not allowed under any circumstances. Establishes a national objective of a stable population to be achieved in not less than 20 years. Legal immigration to be reduced to not more than 200,000 per year with priority given to those who speak English and/or who possess skills in short supply in the US.

ultima said...

Bill# 7: Official English: Government proceedings and documents at all levels of government will be in English. Public interpreters will be provided for those who cannot afford one.

ultima said...

Bill #8: Social integration and linguistic and cultural assimilation

ultima said...

Bill #9: Involuntary deportation of foreign workers in excess of actual demonstrated needs. All aliens must register with 6 months. Employers must demonstrate in good faith the need for foreign workers with irrefutable evidence or their employees among the registrants will be deported involuntarily and expeditiously at their own expense.

ultima said...

#10 Economic Dislocation: Plans will be established to assure a soft landing for our economy as we achieve a stable population.

Newly apprehended illegal will be deported without recourse after fingerprinting, photos and DNA samples are taken. Repeat offenders face jail time.

Illegals in detention or jails may be used in border security construction jobs at the minimum wage.

Bob said...

Dee said, "The immigrants (legal and illegal) from Latin America, the workers, have allowed us in our country, our USA, to avoid a Recession and a Depression."

Lies and nonsense does not point us in a direction that solves our problems. What we need is a real immigration "reform" like "Wanted--Dead or Alive." We need a real immigration policy that will send the illegal aliens packing for home and not coming back, and teaking their "anchor" brats with them.

It's time to stop the lies and nonsense. Illegals hurt every American worker by driving up the prices for everything he buys and undercutting his wages. Illegal aliens have NOTHING AT ALL to do with preventing a recession.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said... "Senator Kyl(R.,Ariz) recently introduced the Immigration Enforcement... Among other things, the bill would require DHS to help identify aliens incarcerated in U.S. jails before they are released, and to take custody of those aliens within 72 hours of apprehension or at the conclusion of any prosecution."

Its a start. Local authorities, cities, towns, states, school boards, social and health (welfare) services, and anyone else receiving government money should be required to report ALL illegal aliens to INS for a period of chain labor followed by deportation.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com


Can we agree on this as a first bill?

Bob said...

ultima said...
Bill #2: Should specify how an employer can demonstrate his need, recruiting practices,...

"Need" for alien workers IS NOT JUSTIFIED by offering wages too low for American workers to support our families.

Any justifictation for imported workers should demonstrate that the employer offered decent COMPETITIVE wages, not starvation wages.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said... "Bill #3:plus benchmarks for demonstrated results in terms of increased deportations, workplace apprehensions, and reduction in both the number of border apprehensions and the illegal population."

We don't want no stinkin' benchmarks. The use of the term "benchmarks" by the government is a way of LYING to the public when they have no intention of doing what they promised. We need DEPORTATION of illegal aliens, not excuses for failing to deport them.

Bob said...

ultima said..."Bill #4:For illegals: immediate removal to a detention center where a quick deportation decision is made with a one week deadline for any appeal of that decision. Jail time for repeat offenders."

Nope. Illegal aliens who aren't shot on sight should be used for a year of chain gang hard labor before being deported. Emphasis during the year should be on the suffering of the prisoners. Let them fear coming back. Let them fear staying.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said..."Bill #5:Anyone who enters the US illegally or who overstays a visa is automatically barred from permanent residency."

good

ultima.. "Children born in the US who has at least one parent who has been granted permanent residency or who is a citizen will be granted citizenship on their 18th birthday."

nope Children who have at least one illegal alien parent in the US should be permanently deniedresidency and citizenship. We don't encourage illegal immigration by promising citizenship for their future famileis and promoting "anchor babies."

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said..."Bill#6: Chain immigrations are not allowed under any circumstances."

Yep. See my comments under #5. Any child who has an illegal alien parent in the US should be permanently denied citizenship and residency. No "anchor babies." No "chain immigration."

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said... "Bill# 7: Official English: Government proceedings and documents at all levels of government will be in English."

Good so far. Add the following:

a} All legal immigrants and guest workers must demonstrate fluency in English before being accepted.

b} Public commercial services should be required to be provided ONLY in English.

ultima said, "Public interpreters will be provided for those who cannot afford one."

Nope. Anyone who wants to live in America should learn English. If they fail to do so it's THEIR expense, not ours.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

ultima said..."#10 Plans will be established to assure a soft landing for our economy as we achieve a stable population."

Some government assistance may be needed while business adjusts to having to pay decent wages and prices readjust to real costs.


ultima said..."Newly apprehended illegal will be deported without recourse after fingerprinting, photos and DNA samples are taken. Repeat offenders face jail time."

nope Illegal aliens should be put on a prison chain gang breaking rock for a year to discourage their immediate return. Harsh punishment will discourage immigration and encourage those already here to leave by themselves.


ultima said, "Illegals in detention or jails may be used in border security construction jobs at the minimum wage."

nope First time illegals should be put on prison chain gangs at NO WAGES for a year, breaking rocks if no other jobs are available. A year at hard chain labor and poor food would discourage repeat offenses and encourage illegals to leave voluntarily.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

Liquidmicro said... "Countrywide just laid off another 900 workers (loan Officers) again because of a popped bubble, nothing to do with 'Illegal Immigrants'."


nope Housing prices are greatly over inflated because of massive demand for housing caused by massive illegal immigration. Twenty million additoinal people occupy ten million housing units, mostly in the low priced range. They drive Americans out of the low priced housing and force American to pay more for housing. The massive immigration has caused a huge demand that resulted in a "boom" in housing construction (the fictional need for illegal labor) and greatly overpriced housing in America.

Sending the 20 million illegals packing for home would free up 10 million housing units and restore housing prices to a reasonable level. During the readjustment those who were forced to buy at the over inflated prices would lose again. Illegal immigration costs Americans every time in every way.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Dee said...

Tan, Tan, Tan, I´ve said this before but perhaps you missed it. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

My sister married a man from Mexico who came her legally and it took him over 10 years to earn his Legal status. He is my brother in law.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Bill 1: I agree all felonious criminals in prisons who are illegal aliens should be deported to their country of origin upon their release.
Bill 2: I agree H-2A Visa process should be streamlined and simplified with the employer requirements you listed.
Bill 3: I will study this one. Will look at the details of the bill.
Bill 4: Employer sanctions and escalation of penalties including jail time - I agree. Healthcare yes.
12M here and sweeps: My preference would be self identification and path to citizenship for those who have been here 5 - 20 years with proven work record, no felonious crimes. Some type of guest worker status for 1 -5 with proven work record, no felonious crimes. Set a date. If not self identified by xx date, then move forward with your recommendation.
I agree to Secure IDs. etc.
Bill 5: With above 4 completed, set a date for number 5a. 5b. Should be kept separate from Immigration bills.
5c. Define fluent.
Bill 6, 7, 8, 10: Separate from Illegal Immigration bills
Bill 9: goes with 4.
Bill 10:

Dee said...

Bob, I bought you this. Based on your last few posts, it appears you fell off of yours.

Dee said...

Liquid, I´ve asked the question of both George Borjas and Robert Reich (one of my favorite economists).

I will post their responses.

ultima said...

Bill #4: If your primary objective is register and bring out of the shadows those foreign workers who it can be shown are in fact needed, then I should think the pathway to citizenship would be largely irrelevant, especially if their children can achieve a citizenship right suspended until they are 18 years old.

ultima said...

Fluency: capability of speaking, reading and writing with effortless ease in English.

This does not have to be at the level of Lupita's fluency but it does have to be sufficient to be able to read and understand ballot materials, laws, regulations, campaign promises and signage. If someone is admitted to permanent residency this should not be an important road block.

ultima said...

I believe 6,7,8,& 10 should be part of the proposal and should be associated with any form of legalization of needed foreign workers. These provisions are of paramount importance to many Americans, I believe, and therefore their approval would grease the skids for the other reform measures. Without that impetus, these would just be left behind and forgotten, not something I am willing to agree to.

James said...

Problem with path to citizenship. The illegals that are currently here have committed numerous violations of U.S. law that would make them ineligible for citizenship. If they meet the other requirements for residency that any person requesting a residency visa would be required to meet then they can stay as a legal resident.

We should not reward criminal behavior (even with good intentions) by allowing citizenship. Any children under the age of 18 could be allowed residency with a path to citizenship.

English only. If people can not function in English then they can not function in American society. Especially the children, they need to become fluent (as in pass high school English) instead of getting by with "bi-lingual" classes. Let's not forget that bi-lingual does not mean English/Spanish because there are many other languages spoken by immigrants and we should not discriminate by providing Spanish services while ignoring the other immigrants. To ensure there is no discrimination, we make English mandatory!!!

ultima said...

I agree 9. should be combined with 4. without losing anything in the process.

Here's my original list of 12 bills:
: (1) strong border control and enforcement, (2) a guest worker program based on demonstrated need, not just an arbitrary number or the number of illegals already present, (3) an end to chain immigrations, anchor babies and the abuse of the 14th amendment, (4) escalating penalties for illegals, those who employ them and those who aid them or provide sanctuary, (5) involuntary repatriation as a disincentive to deter would-be repeat offenders, (6) a reduction in immigration quotas or visas of all kinds, except tourist visas, to a maximum of 200,000 per year, with emphasis on skills not available in the domestic work force, (7) IDs and a mandatory verification system for all workers, (8) criteria for social integration and linguistic and cultural assimilation, (9) registration of illegal aliens, (10) involuntary deportation of foreign workers in excess of actual demonstrated needs, (11) English as the official language of America, and (12) population stabilization with a soft landing for a sustainable economy.

Other topics worth considering:

Criteria and time limit for deportation appeals.

Renunciation of allegiance to any foreign government or to any set of laws (Sharia) other than those of US local,state and federal governments.

No flying of foreign flags except by permit on special days and only in parades or at foreign consulates and embassies.

Prohibition of membership in any organization with the stated objective of overthrowing the US government or any form of separatism or secession.

National anthem always to be sung in English or observed silently.

Support for the rule of law, especially the immigration laws. Permanent residency to be revocable for those who favor foreign governments, open borders or ethnic interests above those of the national interest.

I am sure this is not an exhaustive list. Think about what should be added rather than what should be omitted.

James said...

Dee,

Careful with Robert B Reich. His economics models are lacking in reality.

Liquidmicro said...

"The only reason any job remains unfilled is because the wage is too low. Require it to be filled with an American and employers have to raise the wage."

Robert Reich

Reich seems to be more for education of our underclass citizens than for 'Illegals'.

1. America’s booming IT sector is [facing] a severe shortage of skilled people. What can they do?Give stock options.
2. Help IT professionals keep their skills sharp.
3. Grow your own [such as a] technology and engineering institute
4. Recruit more aggressively [in] smaller rural communities and to women and minorities.

But there’s something I wouldn’t recommend, because it’s not a long-term solution. Don’t go to Washington to fight for allowing more foreign engineers and designers to enter the US on temporary H-1B visas. That may help in the short term, but it doesn’t deal with the underlying problem. It won’t create a permanently bigger stream of IT professionals for the future.

America’s buoyant economy is a testament to the dynamism of its IT sector. But for IT to stay dynamic, more Americans will have to become a part of it.
Source: Computer World, “Coping With the Shortage” Sep 6, 1999

Liquidmicro said...

• By increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent.

• Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent.

• The 10 million native-born workers without a high school degree face the most competition from immigrants, as do the eight million younger natives with only a high school education and 12 million younger college graduates.

• The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

George Borjas, CIS

Liquidmicro said...

Costs

The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.

George Borjas, CIS

Liquidmicro said...

You picked a couple good ones Dee, keep them coming.

liquidmicro said...

But some things we do know -- or can infer. For today's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal), the closest competitors are tomorrow's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal). The more who arrive, the harder it will be for low-skilled workers already here to advance.

More from Borjas

Dee said...

Ultima,
Bill 4: Yes. Register. Bring out of the shadows. Pathway to citizenship can be optional.
Bill 5: Need to determine level of acceptable proficiency. We have to recognize it takes 1 generation to fully assimilate. That should not be a barrier. Instead, standard testing should do.
Bill 6, 7, 8, 10: I think we need a separate thread just to discuss each of these issues. Should they be part of the proposal? I thought you said we should keep the initial bills separate and not go for the whole Comprehensive Immigration Reform bailiwick.

Dee said...

James, You are a reasonable guy. Go back in history. Why are they here. Why has the government and business established they policies they have since 1924? So I think we can all agree. You cannot blame the 12M without also blaming the Administration, Business and ourselves. We all bear equal responsibility. Should we ALL go to prison or just one group? We are ALL equally accountable. So instead, let´s establish some identification process. I agree with Ulty. It doesn´t have to be a pathway to citizenship. But it also doesn´t have to be a call for Mass Deportation. Let´s look for solutions.

Dee said...

English Proficieny. What is English Proficiency. Are we setting a higher standard for immigrants (legal or illegal) from Latin countries?

My mother has been a citizen all of her life, yet she has an accent and is bi-lingual.

Liquidmicro said...

"You cannot blame the 12M without also blaming the Administration, Business and ourselves. We all bear equal responsibility. Should we ALL go to prison or just one group? We are ALL equally accountable."

How do you figure the average American Citizen is responsible for the 'Illegal Immigration Invasion'??? Government and Business I agree with, the 'Illegals' themselves by their choice coming here also are to blame.

I sure am not guilty for them being here, if you feel guilty about it than thats your problem, not the average Citizens.

Dee said...

Ulty, this one (see below) seems odd to me. Why? I lived in Chicago. I know they have "Taste of.." festivals. I know all types of flage are flown everyday.

If you have such a law, then it will have to be administered and enforced across the board. It has to be enforced at every St Patricks Day parade, including arrests. At every Italian American Day including arrests. At every Taste of ... Festival, including arrests. At every Chinatown Festivity, and on and on. Is that what you want? Or is it merely the Mexican flag you are demonizing??


No flying of foreign flags except by permit on special days and only in parades or at foreign consulates and embassies.

Dee said...

James,
I love Robert Reich.
He is one of the smartest economists around.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Do you know why I like Robert Reich? He is logical. He speaks the truth, no matter how unpopular. He is a realist and statician. He reports facts, regardless of the issue.

He is neither pro or anti illegal immigration.

He is pro Logic.

That is why I like him. He and I don´t always agree, but I do believe he is honest.

Dee said...

Liquid, The way WE share the guilt is every time we appreciate a lower price, every time we take advantage of a sale, we are accomplices to the way our ecomony has lowered prices for each of our purchases.

Liquidmicro said...

Should they ('Illegals') than be made to feel guilty by lowering wages of American Citizens?

Or do you consider that a wash?

Liquidmicro said...

How can we be accomplices if the business that hires the 'Illegal' is he one making the profit? If most 'Illegals' work in the services sector, how would that have an effect on what I purchase?

Dee said...

Liquid, Regarding Professor Borjas, I trust his data. He is an honest man. He would not jeopardize his reputation by deviating from the truth. (read my book to understand why I say this).

That is why I asked him.

He may omit, but he will never, ever provide false information regardless of any agenda.

Liquidmicro said...

What about cheap imports from overseas labor? How do 'Illegals' fit into that picture?

You can be an accomplice if you choose along with your guilt, I have none, nor have I benefited by them in any way.

Liquidmicro said...

Mr. Reich, Yesterday, the stock market dropped 250 points. The reason? Most economists agree.
The jobs report. Why? Payrolls dropped by 4,000 in August. Yet, the unemployment rate held steady at 4.6%.

I believe this is partially due to the fact that, as ICE has reported, the rate of illegal immigration is down. (in 2007 apprehensions down by 38%, remittances down by to .6% vs 23%.)

I recognize the "Moral Hazard" here, but my question is, doesn´t this prove the 12M here are helping us avoid a recession and the net benefit far outweighs any costs? Therefore, as the Boomers are aging and as we are experiencing this housing bubble burst, more than ever, we should move towards comprehensive immigration reform before it is too late?

My blog readers are in total denial and a word from you would be very helpful.

Your fan,
Dee

PS: I also promise to buy your new book so you can stay home more often :0)

I will be waiting for the response.

Dee said...

Liquid, do you follow me everywhere? I said I sent a message to RR and GB.

Liquidmicro said...

Nope, just do my research.

Dee said...

Well Thank you!
I was going to post both messages but didn´t want to overkill. Probably better you posted. I am hoping for a response from both RR and GB. They have been very good about it in the past.

Anonymous said...

Dee, now your mother is bilingual, you said she only spoke Spanish, that's another lie you have been caught in.She suddenly is bilingual.

Call me anon1.

Bob said...

Dee: Your "off your rocker" comment is neither discussion nor polite. You turn your back on real immigration reform and advocate amnisty for illegal aliens, and all the while toss insults and personal attacks on those of us who demand that the invasion of our country be turned back.

Sorry Dee, your crapola and insults doesn't convince anyone.

Bob said...

The Democratic Congress and our Mexican loving President tried to cram the lie of "immigration reform" down our throats and ran into a massive response from average Americans. Their "welcome a Mexican" program was rejected by huge public pressure.

Now we see a Dee and her little cadre of Mexican lovers discussion the "best" way to grant amnesty to Mexicans and continue the invasion of our country. The opinions and needs of American who rose up and turned back our Congress are ignored, as if we don't exist.

Too bad, Dee. Your smug little group of amnisty promoters isn't reflective of Americans. We don't want our land taken over by Mexicans. We want them sent home and the sooner the better.

Deal with it.

Bob

Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Dee said...

Anon1, I am always so flatterred by your continuous obsession with my life experiences.
My mom favored Spanish but she did her best with her attempts to speak English. I called it Spanglish.

Dee said...

Bob Dear, I suggest you go back, read your own posts and reflect upon them. I recognize you are a passionate person, passionate about this issue. I recognize you have firm opinions and will not be swayed by my documentation or reference materials. My attempt at humor didn´t reach you either. That is fine. You and I are both entitled to our opinions. Discussion is better than not talking at all.

Dee said...

Gee Bob, I hope your last comment isn´t calling Ultima names too. He is open to logical discussion and some compromise. So are many others.

We need to resolve these issues and stop all the anger. We are one country and all of us discussing these issues are proud Americans.

Also, I am ok with your promoting your website on my blog. I want people to see I don´t make up people like you.

patriot said...

No amount of documentation or reference materials changes the fact that we have millions of illegal aliens in our country and that they violated our laws. The penalty for this according to our laws is DEPORTATION. Our country loses all credibility when we reward this kind of behavior and don't enforce our laws.

Brian said...

Our country also loses credibility when it doesn't uphold it's own Constitution. Habeas corpus comes to mind rather quickly...

Dee said...

Welcome Brian. I hope you join us often.

I did visit your website and respond to your commentary on HC.

Anonymous said...

Hurray!!
We need comprehensive immigration reform! Today, tomorrow is late.

Dee said...

Thank you Anonymous. May we call you Anon 2?

Anon 1 is on the other side.

Dee said...

Well Everyone.
I did hear back from George Borjas on his blog.
Here is his response to me.

Dee, I doubt very much that the changing environment for illegal immigrants has much to do with the increasing likelihood of a recession. Economically speaking, illegal immigration is not that big a deal in a nearly $14 trillion economy.

Posted by: gborjas | September 09, 2007 at 04:12 PM

I am going to have to think about his response.

I know we here on my Blog think this issue is very large and has major impacts (positive or negative) on the economy and potential recession. Maybe we are all wrong.

I´ll let you know what Robert Reich says. I am hoping to hear back from him tomorrow.

Liquidmicro said...

"I know we here on my Blog think this issue is very large and has major impacts (positive or negative) on the economy and potential recession. Maybe we are all wrong."

I think you are the only one that thinks the 'Illegals' will have some sort of effect on keeping us out of a recession. I think most will agree that the 'Illegals' are part of the reason we may be going into a recession. As I have stated earlier in this topic. They were allowed loans for homes, now can not afford them, they were allowed loans for vehicles, now are fleeing back to Mexico with the vehicle not making the payments, thus causing the more defaults. They are part of the PROBLEM, not part of the solution.

Dee said...

Liquid,
While I believe they have helped us avoid a recession to date,
GB DISAGREES with you. As he said, "I doubt very much that the changing environment for illegal immigrants has much to do with the increasing likelihood of a recession".

patriot said...

Just how does Borjas' response disagree with liquid's views? They seem paralled to me.

Since the 12 million are still here and yet we seem to be heading into a recession with them here, how are they helping us avoid one? You are not making any sense here.

Dee said...

Pat, Please re read Liquids comments. Liquid said, "I think most will AGREE that the 'Illegals' ARE PART OF THE REASON we may be going into a recession".

Borjas DISAGREES. He says:
"I DOUBT very much that the changing environment for illegal immigrants has much to do with the increasing likelihood of a recession".

Liquidmicro said...

"Borjas DISAGREES. He says:
"I DOUBT very much that the changing environment for illegal immigrants has much to do with the increasing likelihood of a recession"."

Borjas is stating: that the increasing likeliness of a recession is not due to the changing environment of the 'Illegals'. Basically the 'Illegals' losing jobs and being returned to countries of origin is having little to no effect on the likeliness of our recession. There purchasing power isn't enough to keep us out of a recession based on $14 Trillion dollar economy.

I simply stated that I believe they are part of the recession due to they were allowed loans for homes, now can not afford them, they were allowed loans for vehicles, now are fleeing back to Mexico with the vehicle not making the payments, thus causing the more defaults.

patriot said...

dee doesn't get it, liquid. She isn't comprehending what Borjas stated. What he stated actually shoots down her theories just as you explained but she still won't get it.

Liquidmicro said...

I'm waiting for the response from Reich to see how Dee spins that.

Dee said...

Well Liquid, He did NOT agree with you. That is clear. You are the one spinning his words around. So be it.

The facts will be out soon enough. I will publish them once others publish.

Don´t worry. I won´t say "I told you so" too often.

Liquidmicro said...

Oh, please, Dee, give us your rendition of what it is that Borjas is stating..... Patiently waiting

Dee said...

. I say they helped us avoid a recession.
. You say they are the reason we are going into a recession.
. He says they have no impact either way. Other factors are causing the recession.

Facts reported Friday: Payrolls dropped by 4,000 in August. Yet, the unemployment rate held steady at 4.6%.

Liquid, Try to follow the logic here:
Four thousand jobs are lost, yet unemployment remained flat. How do we drop jobs without impacting unemployment? There was no news about increase of employees anywhere. You take 4000 out of the equation and the unemployment rate should increase. Why not unless the employees were not registered (undocumented). Remember, ICE says the rates of illegal immigrants are reduced per their latest reports. It is only logical the 4000, at least some percentage, is due to the loss of illegal immigrants in the workforce. Therefore, the loss report which impacted the stocks which may lead us to a recession.

Liquidmicro said...

Losing 4000 jobs in a market with over 152.8 million workers doesn't equate to .1% let alone .01% so here Dee follow along... not enough job losses to make a difference!

Liquidmicro said...

Answer this question that Borjas asks, his topic: Calderon On Mexican Immigration - I often hear the claim that illegal immigrants contribute mightily to the U.S. economy. Let me pose a technical question: Is there any credible evidence that the economic contribution of illegal Mexican immigrants to the U.S. economy has been "enormous"?

If one were to believe the numbers in this Council of Economic Advisers report, the total gains accruing to the pre-existing population of the United States from all immigration (both legal and illegal) is around $40 billion.

Illegal immigrants make up about a third of all immigrants, and Mexican illegals make up about 60 percent of all illegals. Therefore, Mexican illegal immigrants would contribute at most 20 percent of the gains reported by the CEA--and probably much less because of their skill composition.

So my question: Is an $8 billion contribution to a nearly $14 trillion economy enormous?

Dee said...

If the stats were that insignificant, then why did the stocks tank?

I want to see the raw data.

Liquidmicro said...

I said they are PART of the reason, not the reason. Please re-read PART of the reason, not THE reason. Again I state this simply because they have also purchased homes and other large ticket items, now with the foreclosures and job losses they are PART of the problem, not THE problem. Follow ME?

Liquidmicro said...

Stocks had big drops the weeks prior due to many things. Do some research for the past few weeks, what is it you once said to me.... do your own homework.

Dee said...

Liquid, you miss all the contributions. Even you must recognize the sales taxes, purchases, etc. Remember Stayhorne´s report? $17B annually in TX alone?

You speculate regarding losses or walking away from mortgagtes, but I´ve seen articles.

Dee said...

But I have not seen articles or urls saying so.

Dee said...

My whole point is, they have made contributions and helped us avoid labor shortages. Now that they are leaving and as controls become tighter, we are going to see some negative impacts.

You may choose to deny it. However, as these policies continue and we see more impacts on the economy, I will do my best not to say I told you so.

As I have always said, I am for secure borders, employer sanctions.

If the 12M would all leave tomorrow, at least they won´t be exploited here or live in fear anymore. But, I do believe we will see severe labor shortages and be in the midst of a recession before you see the facts for what they are.

Liquidmicro said...

We've already gone over Granny Strayhorn and her boxes. She also failed to reduce that $17B by any credible means at all, which leads one to believe that she has more than made up numbers. Not a credible person on your behalf.

What about: Illegal immigrants a financial burden on Michigan; search it as a headline, contradicts Texas and Granny altogether.

Liquidmicro said...

I agree a recession is around the corner, however there is no labor shortage and will not be in the future. Unemployment numbers will be going up, I predict to 5.0% by next years end. Any negative impacts that we see will not be brought on by 'Illegals' leaving as individuals or by large mass deportation.

Dee said...

Oh joy. An OpEd from a Republican ANTI up for re-election soon.
He must have forgotten about the "Venga a Michigan" program.

Dee said...

Stayhorne was a brave person. She was brave to print the truth and the facts.

Dee said...

Recession will occur as I predicted it would and it definitely is due to the labor shortage and it will become severe as the boomers age, become ill and we have no medical support.

Dee said...

TTFN for now Liquid. C U 2moro.

Liquidmicro said...

Stayhorne was a brave person. She was brave to print the truth and the facts.

She was up for re-election, pandering to what she thought was the masses.....and LOST.

Liquidmicro said...

Recession will occur as I predicted it would and it definitely is due to the labor shortage and it will become severe as the boomers age, become ill and we have no medical support.

How can there be a labor shortage if you were just pointing out the loss of 4000 jobs?

Dee said...

Liquid, In a nutshell:
1. Job Losses: The market was expecting a 110,000 increase instead a loss of 4,000 jobs.
2. Where are job losses: Housing, Mortgage, Lending, Construction: eg. Country Wide Financial announced 12,000 job cuts (20% of total employees).
3. Market: Very nervous. Fears Recession. Public is moving money to Bonds for safety due to fear of Recession.
4. Who is to blame: Greedy Lending-Mortgage companies, Greedy consumers mortgaging homes they could not afford and now defaulting.
5. Illegal Immigration impact to economy: Due to ANTI sentiment and increased enforcement-sweeps and now, fewer jobs in Construction, many are self repatriating. This will cause loss of sales taxes, sales revenues, increase in food prices and continued, increased shortages for AgJobs.
6. Labor Shortages: AgJobs, Medical (nursing) continue. (Do we expect loan officers to harvest crops?)
7. Interest Rate: What will Bernanke do in a few days?

patriot said...

Maybe dee can explain why the huge drop in the stock market a few years ago? There were no raids conducted to deport illegal aliens at that time. The illegals were not leaving as they are today as they were not living in fear of deportation back then.

So you admit that loan officers won't do farm work but yet you suggested that laid off auto workers should?

Dee said...

Liquid, I did find the raw data from the government reports.

Here are where the job losses are:
Manufacturing-Goods Producing:
Manufacturing employment declined by 46,000 in August. This industry has
lost 215,000 jobs over the past year. In August, declines were widespread
among component industries. Within durable goods, there were job losses in
motor vehicles and parts (-11,000), machinery (-7,000), wood products (-7,000),
furniture and related products (-4,000), and semiconductors and electronic
components (-4,000). In nondurable goods manufacturing, job losses continued
in apparel (-4,000) and in textile mills (-2,000).

Dee said...

Construction:
Construction employment declined in August (-22,000), with most of the loss
occurring among residential specialty trade contractors. Since its most recent
peak in September 2006, construction employment has fallen by 96,000.

Dee said...

The 3rd highest area is hardly worth mentioning. See why:

Employment in local government education fell by 32,000 in August, as
seasonal hiring was less than usual.

Dee said...

So it looks like the Manufacturing Jobs are being exported out of the country.
and
Construction Jobs due to the Housing Bubble burst.

Next month-quarter, we should expect to see the losses in the Service industry as the financial jobs losses will significantly increase.

Dee said...

And, like I said, what we won´t see is the loss of jobs due to the rate of workers repatriating.

They are not even figured into these equations.

Dee said...

Here are my two data sources so you can check yourself:

US Dept of Labor Employment Situation Summary

Calculating the Unemployment Rate

Liquidmicro said...

Nothing like trying to throw #5 into the mix - Disagree.

#6 - there are labor shortages in many fields, but like Reich suggests, we should be enticing our students to fill these jobs instead of off shoring them, go back to the way things used to be.

Now you are beginning to understand when I say the 'Illegals' are part of the problem - see #4; "foreclosures", thats a big word, say it with me 'FORECLOSURES', the 'Illeglas' also got home loans, mostly ARM loans, are now defaulting and are part of the problem.

Liquidmicro said...

See post #3 at the beginning of this topic, the housing bubble effects many fields, job losses in all of them are to be expected.

As for AG - even the 'Illegals' themselves are not going back to the fields, what are we to do, import more? Why is it that the farmers aren't using H-2A visas like they should, nobody to blame but the farmer, as he doesn't want the additional burden of providing for the migrant, such as housing as required, transportation as required, medical as required, because in the long run it would cost more and he wouldn't have his $50M bank roll.

Liquidmicro said...

"Next month-quarter, we should expect to see the losses in the Service industry as the financial jobs losses will significantly increase."

Service Industry - mostly done by 'Illegals', the question is how do they show up on the unemployment rate for our country and what effects will they have on the numbers? If they are working with forged documents, how do you determine if they are 'Illegal'? Those paid "under the table" never show up on the numbers.

Dee said...

Check out this url Liquid.
They may be counted.

http://www.streetauthority.com/terms/u/unemployment-rate.asp

The formula for unemployment rate is:
Unemployment Rate = Number of Unemployed / Total Labor Force

In the U.S., the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports the unemployment rate in its Employment Situation report, which is released on the first Friday of each month at 8:30 AM EST. The report discloses the current unemployment rate, the change in the unemployment rate, and a variety of other labor statistics. The data in the report is generated by surveys taken from almost every major industry in over 250 metropolitan areas. The Bureau conducts two surveys: the household survey, which interviews 60,000 households, and the establishment survey, which reviews data from 160,000 businesses and agencies.


It looks like the JOBS are counted via the 2nd survey.

Liquidmicro said...

"Liquid, you miss all the contributions. Even you must recognize the sales taxes, purchases, etc."

Does 2 - 3% of the population (8M (working adult 'Illegals') to 12M('Illegals')out of 301M) have that much of a significant contribution in a $14T economy? Go back to Borjas' Blog and do some reading.

Dee said...

So it looks like the 60,000 household surveys determines the number of unemployed

and

establishment survey, which reviews data from 160,000 businesses and agencies, determines the total labor force.

The illegal immigrants would be in the total labor force (or total number of jobs), not in the survey.

So if they leave, then the ratios will be impacted in the unemployment rate positively since there will be no decrease in the numerator with a decrease in the denominator.

Dee said...

So back to my original premise.

We saw 4000 jobs LOST yet No Impact on the rate of unemployment.

Just like I said.

Liquidmicro said...

I re-state: Losing 4000 jobs in a market with over 152.8 million workers doesn't equate to .1% let alone .01% so here Dee follow along... not enough job losses to make a difference!

Dee said...

From the .gov report

Table A. Major indicators of labor market activity, seasonally adjusted
(Numbers in thousands)


Jobs -4000 K

Dee said...

Liquid, I did hear back from Robert Reich. He emailed me the response since I also sent him an email. I like him!! He is a regular person. I hope everyone buys his book. I know I am. Here is his answer:

"Robert B. Reich" rreich@berkeley.edu wrote:
Dee,

There's no question in my mind that the national economy benefits from immigration. I'm also convinced that undocumented immigrants add more to the economy than they take out of it -- although many Americans need more assurance that our borders become more secure so we 're not opening the American workplace to everyone in the world. The current slide toward recession is mainly because consumers -- the vast majority of whom are here legally -- are beginning to reach the end of their ability to borrow more money to finance their purchases.

Hope this answers your question. And hope you like my book.

Robert Reich

Dee said...

So Liquid, While he says the 12M are a positive net gain, he is saying the reason we are heading towards a Recession is we, the American public, have borrowed more than we can pay back and we are now at the end of our rope.

(reminds me of the stuff our old friend Ms Lupita used to say)

Anonymous said...

"the 12 million have allowed the U.S. to avoid a recession"

Gee, now it really has nothing to do with those illegal aliens at all.

Dee said...

Welcome Anon.
We have an Anon 1 and an Anonymous. Maybe you want to add another number or use John or Jane.

What is your view on illegal immigration?

We agree on secure borders and employer sanctions. We disagree on what to do with the 12M here.

Your view?

Liquidmicro said...

Lets break it down - $8B Contribution to economy according to CEA report. 8M working 'Illegal Immigrants'. Equates to each working 'Illegal' contributing $1K dollars to our economy each or $670 by each of the 12M 'Illegals'. The question is what has the CEA report failed to calculate in the determination of its numbers? Is $670 per each individual 'Illegal Immigrant' significant enough to keep us out of a recession? I think not, and I also don't agree with the findings of the CEA report, to many variables that they did not take into consideration.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Here is the CEA Report

According to this report:
Key Findings
1. On average, US natives benefit from immigration. Immigrants tend to complement (not
substitute for) natives, raising natives’ productivity and income.
Note: Foreign born workers includes illegal immigrants
2. Careful studies of the long-run fiscal effects of immigration conclude that it is likely to
have a modest, positive influence.
3. Skilled immigrants are likely to be especially beneficial to natives. In addition to
contributions to innovation, they have a significant positive fiscal impact.

Dee said...

Liquid, I promised not to say I told you so too often, but I can say it once!!

Liquidmicro said...

CIS Study

The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.

Liquidmicro said...

The first mistake with the report is that it lumps 'Illegals' in with legal immigrants. This is two totally different animals, as most legal immigrants have much higher incomes and 'Illegals' have much lower incomes. This is a very poor report in all sense of the manner of talking about 'Illegal Immigrants', they are masked and hidden by the legal immigrants incomes. If you choose to believe it, which you have demonstrated already that you do, then nothing I can show you or say to you will change your mind. There is no I told you so, you fail to open your eyes and differentiate the differences between legal and 'Illegal'.

Dee said...

Well, the CIS report is guestimates. You pointed me to the CEA reports. We know it is valid data even if it is all inclusive.

It compares to Strayhornes report re net positive effect.

Liquidmicro said...

Reich is basing his comment "There's no question in my mind that the national economy benefits from immigration. I'm also convinced that undocumented immigrants add more to the economy than they take out of it" on the outcome of the CEA report. Borjas also mentioned the report and derived the question of "Is an $8 billion contribution to a nearly $14 trillion economy enormous?"

Borjas also states on his blog, headline "Calderon On Mexican Immigration - I often hear the claim that illegal immigrants contribute mightily to the U.S. economy. Let me pose a technical question: Is there any credible evidence that the economic contribution of illegal Mexican immigrants to the U.S. economy has been "enormous"?

If one were to believe the numbers in this Council of Economic Advisers report, the total gains accruing to the pre-existing population of the United States from all immigration (both legal and illegal) is around $40 billion.

Illegal immigrants make up about a third of all immigrants, and Mexican illegals make up about 60 percent of all illegals. Therefore, Mexican illegal immigrants would contribute at most 20 percent of the gains reported by the CEA--and probably much less because of their skill composition.

So my question: Is an $8 billion contribution to a nearly $14 trillion economy enormous?"

You claim the report to be valid data, I do not based on the pre-text of my previous post and the statement of Borjas above.

Dee said...

Liquid, As I said, it is valid. I also acknowledged, it was combined. At least it is better than guesstimates we so often hear about the "cost of."

Liquidmicro said...

Everything is guesstimates, the CEA report also guesstimates, there is no exact way to determine the answers to the questions posed unless SS allows their numbers to be scrutinized and looked into by the IRS. At least that will give us a better understanding of any effects.

James said...

Dee writes: "English Proficieny. What is English Proficiency. Are we setting a higher standard for immigrants (legal or illegal) from Latin countries?

My mother has been a citizen all of her life, yet she has an accent and is bi-lingual."

My wife is bi-lingual and has an accent. Please get off the soap box about a higher standard for immigrants from Latin countries. The victim mentality is poor taste at best in an discussion.

Citizenship currently requires the ability to answer questions at the interview in English, write some sentences in English, etc. It is to ensure enough fluency that normal activities can be achieved. It is a standard for everyone not just the Latinos. When any immigrant cannot be bothered to learn the culture and language of the country in which they wish to have citizenship then they should not get citizenship, PERIOD.

What I fail to understand is why supporters of illegal immigrants try to shift the discussion to Latin Americans instead of all illegal immigrants? Why they want special benefits like language? Why they refuse to discuss the immigration laws, border procedures, etc. of those countries which are trying to send their people to take from the U.S.? Why they insist that U.S. law doesn't apply to illegals? Why benefits are to be provided to illegals yet refuse to provide the same to veterans, legal immigrants, and citizens?

Dee said...

James, Welcome to our discussion. We civilly discuss immigration issues here.

Ultima and I were discussing new immigration bills. One of his being English Proficiency. I was questioning his definition. Would it mean accent or none? This would be any new immigrant although I mentioned Latin. So the question would apply to your wife. Ultima´s new bill would ask for English Proficiency. So I asked what the standard was, especially since it takes a generation to assimilate.

No whining or soapbox here James. We are discussing his recommendations for new bills.

As an fyi, I have no accent at all. I also do not support illegal immigration. If you read my blog you will know I support secure borders, employer sanctions and a path to citizenship for the 12M here. I study history and I understand it has taken over 20 years for the number to accumulate this high and they have been welcomed by the admin and business, with no enforcement of the civil immigration violations.

Bob said...

Dee said...
"Construction: Construction employment declined in August (-22,000), with most of the loss
occurring among residential specialty trade contractors. Since its most recent peak in September 2006, construction employment has fallen by 96,000."

Right you are Dee. The DEMAND for new housing over the past 20 years has been driven by 20 million illegal immigrants wanting housing. In the past year many parts of the US have toughened our response and slowed the rate of illegal immigration. Without the illegal immigration we don't need so many new houses, and construction of new housing slows down.

If we arrest, prosecute, and punish all the illegal construcion workers and then send them packing for home no Americans will lose their jobs in construciton. Most Americans have been driven out of that industry by unchecked illegal immigration that works at starvation wages. Sending illegal labor home would tend to raise construction wages and allow Americans to return to working in that industry.

Bob
Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Bob said...

"Key Findings 1. On average, US natives benefit from immigration."

Rubbish. Limited immigration may be postive, but millions of illegal immigrants rob every American by cutting wages and raising prices.

Time to round them up, punish them severely, and send them home.

Bob
Catch more of The World According to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com

Dee said...

Bob, Bob, Bob,
You believe what you want and disagree with the facts.

Good thing you post your url, otherwise people would think I made you up.

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