Saturday, August 25, 2007

Why the ANTIs are winning the Argument right now

As I´ve written so often, I believe in Comprehensive Immigration Reform (CIS). Most PRO American citizens are strong believers in CIS. Secure Borders, Employer Sanctions and an earned path to citizenship for the 12M here is a logical approach to the Immigration issues we face today. For some reason, not enough of us post on blogs or get involved in the political arena although we do have an inclination for marches.

The ANTIs have a brilliant strategy for engaging the American public to their side and it is obvious they have friends in the media and especially on the AM Radio dial. Of course they started creating this strategy in the 1970´s when John Tanton first became involved with the Sierra Club and "raised concerns about the educatability of Hispanics."

The media enjoys the "Breaking News" opportunities. They enjoy railing the masses and getting them agitated. Reporting on Arellano is a Breaking News story. The "Mexico Senate takes up Migrant´s cause" is another Breaking News story. They also know that their ratings go up every time they show every crime committed by someone who may have lapsed papers over the last 20 years. They are not presenting the entire issue, just the one-sided snippets that help increase their ratings.

The American Citizen PROs need a champion to promote our "right and just" cause. We need someone who is just as visible and engaging to our side as Dobbs and Limbaugh are to the ANTI side.

236 comments:

1 – 200 of 236   Newer›   Newest»
patriot said...

You are forgetting the most important thing about the illegal immigration issue, it is against the law. That is enough for most Americans to be opposed to it. There is no need for any hyperbole, news stories by the media, blog postings or anything else, to sway us one way or the other. The reason for being opposed to illegal immigration is the rule of law and that is enough for most Americans.

ultima said...

The media usually exhibit a decidedly liberal point of view. The last time there was an altercation between demonstrator and the police in LA, the emphasis was on police brutality not on those who started the whole thing by pelting the police with rocks, cans and bottles to provoke them.

Limbaugh and Dobbs aren't particularly articulate or helpful defenders of what is "right and just" from the Anti point of view. They may do more damage than good. Be careful what you wish for. You could have "Somos..." as your spokesperson.

Regarding the 12 million, would you be willing to submit them all to the test I have suggested many times: if it can be shown that they have jobs citizens would do if offered a fair wage, they get a quick deportation appeal and expeditious involuntary deportation if the appeal fails. I won't repeat the bases for appeal I have suggested but they were fair and reasonable. That's the solution to the 12 million and other problems like creating the proper disincentives to come here in the first place.

Dee said...

Somos does not speak for the American PROs. I think Geraldo does a good job at representing the issues. I saw him battling Hannity, O´Reilly and TT and he always holds his own, representing the facts and the PRO CIR agenda (as I have laid it out on my blog). So far, he and Navarette are the only true PRO CIR advocates that have done a good job representing us.

Regarding your recommendations for the 12M and the "test" and pathway to citizenship, I have said before I think it is a reasonable plan.

patriot said...

Personally, I think that Geraldo makes an utter fool of himself every time he tries to debate illegal immigration on television. It is obvious to most viewers that he has no respect for American law and that his only concern is for the illegal aliens among us who are Latino.

ultima said...

Being allowed to stay and work and come out of the shadows is one thing, citizenship is another. The pathway to citizenship should be long and difficult with heavy emphasis on civics and English language skills. I don't see this as a major issue since their children will be able to clear this hurdle without difficulty or achieve automatic citizenship if they were born here.

ultima said...

I'm still hung up on Official English and believe we have little time left in which to take action on this. Agreement on this would be an indication of good faith on the part of the Pros, sort of a quid pro quo for treating the 12 million carefully and humanely.

patriot said...

I doubt that most of the advocates for illegal immigrants will give up any consessions on the new birthright citizenship bill or the official English bill. The reason being that most illegal immigrant advocates are Latino and they want the children of like kind to gain citizenship in this country thereby increasing their numbers and their voting power in the future. They don't want English as our nation's language because they want Spanish to be or in the very least for us to become a bi-lingual nation. It is not hard to figure out where these people are coming from in their viewpoints.

Dee said...

Pat, If you listen to the words Geraldo is saying you will hear he is spot on. If I didn´t know better, I would swear he is reading my blog and quoting verbatim. He supports: Secure Borders, Employer Sanctions, a pathway to citizenship for the 12M and he quotes the history of Immigration and where the bulk of responsibility for our immigration issues actually falls. He is spot on target!

Dee said...

Ultima said: "Being allowed to stay and work and come out of the shadows is one thing, citizenship is another. The pathway to citizenship should be long and difficult"

Ultima, the pathway, even in the last bill, was long and difficult. It did include heavy emphasis on civics, learning English, and took from 10 - 15 years to achieve citizenship status. There was no easy trek here.

I also agree, the children are assimilating and going to school and already citizens.

We need to get our CIR underway so we can get the 12M out of the shadows, secure borders, reform our immigration policies especially with employer sanctions and deport all felonious criminals immediately.

Dee said...

Ulty, re: Official English, I think the majority of American PROs support the concept if it is as you defined. You know both Mirror and I have said so. However, even you said there is ambiguity in the verbiage of the bill. I know for a fact that several ANTI websites are looking far beyond what you represent the bill to be. They want the complete and total elimination of the use of Spanish in this country. They don´t want to press "2" for Spanish or go to Wal mart and hear any ads in Spanish. I read one yesterday complaining about Spanish words on a candybar.

patriot said...

My opinion of Geraldo Rivera remains the same. He is only interested in what promotes Latinos in this country and it doesn't matter to him if many are here illegally.

It doesn't matter what some people think the official English bill should say or mean, the only thing that matters is what is in the actual bill and none of those things you mentioned are in the bill. So why go on about it? Why bring that up anyway while ignoring the motivations behind those who oppose the bill of which I clarified for you?

Dee said...

Pat,
Even Ultima agrees we need clarity on the Official English bill: S1335.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:1:./temp/~c110mPLJbF::

There are also related bills associated with this bill that require clarification. This is nothing we can jump into.

Clearly this is a separate issue vs Comprehensive Immigration reform. We need to prioritize: Secure Borders, Employer Sanctions, Bring the 12M out of the shadows and deport any felonious criminals. These are clearly the top priorities. The Official English and any proposals to change the 14th Ammendment impact current citizens. We need to resolve our immigration issues and they should be top priority.

patriot said...

The official English bill is quite clear as is the birthright citizenship bill being considered in congress. There are no hidden agendas or any injustices in them.

The official English bill will impact our taxes significantly so it should be one of the priorities in congress. The birthright citizenship bill does not impact those who are already citizens of this country but it will impact the future right of the unborn to be citizens of this country. It is directly linked to illegal immigration so it should also be an important priority in congress. Besides congress has always addressed many bills at once during their sessions. I don't get your point here. Those bills will not stop any further discussion about immigration into our country.

The first two priorties on the illegal immigration mess we are in should be to secure our borders, deal with the employers and take action to avoid any further fraud on their part. Once those two things are accomplished much of the illegal immigrant problem will disappear on it's own.

We also need to impower city and state officials to help identity and detain illegal immigrants.

Dee said...

Well Pat, we are not too far apart on our views. We do agree on the top priorities.

With Ultima, I do agree on bringing the 12M out of the shadows and establishing some type of registration process and qualification process for next steps. Once this is done, then we can move on to next steps that we all agree upon.

Tanstaafl said...

"PRO American Citizen" is the term you use to describe yourself and Geraldo and La Raza? When you invert reality like that you deserve to lose any argument you engage in.

The American citizens never consented to this invasion of immigrants, and they don't want the invaders to stay.

As long as they do stay, with or without the rubber stamp of our plutocracy's pro-invasion manequins, all Latinos are delegitimized, even the legal ones. But especially fifth columnist Ladeeenyos like Geraldo (and yourself) who clearly demonstrate that their ethnocentrism trumps respect for the law and any loyalty to America.

Do you understand what I am saying? This isn't a "brilliant strategy". It's a natural, predictable human reaction to invasion. Until the invaders leave, or you "PRO"s win and the subhumans you call "ANTI"s are successfully silenced and eventually genocided, there will be nothing but trouble.

kyledeb said...

I came across your blog through a technorati search and I was wondering if you'd be interested in a link exchange with Immigration Orange. I'm always looking for different perspectives to interact with and value all viewpoints. Email me at kyledeb at gmail dot com if you're interested.

Dee said...

Tan, I am glad you posted your perspective. The PROs have a rational approach. Extremist ANTIs such as yourself clearly prove what is wrong with your view when you post: "all Latinos are delegitimized, even the legal ones" or your other comment "or you "PRO"s win and the subhumans you call "ANTI"s are successfully silenced and eventually genocided"

Shame on you.

As Ultima said, there are extremists on both sides of this issue and you are one of them.

Tanstaafl said...

Compromise with invaders isn't rational. If Pilgrims were invading Mexico and replacing it's people maybe you'd understand.

You see me as an extremist because you aren't PRO America. You're PRO Ladeeenyo. You call yourself a Mexican-American. Note the order.

You deny the real extremists and the genocidal aims of your La Raza carnales. Their dreams are not fringe. They are your intellectuals, your leaders. The mayor of LA and the LT gov of CA are MEChA. "For La Raza everything, for others nothing." They believe these extremist things. They promulgate brown supremacist beliefs to "their people" who are invading my country.

I'm not calling for reconquista and ethnic cleansing. Your Ladeeenyo leaders are. You call me an extremist but give them a pass.

Your neutral airs don't fool me. You are a fifth columnist. I'm not hiding what I'm for or against. You are.

Dee said...

Tan, I read your website and it is very clear you are angry at all Hispanics-Latinos (legal citizens and illegals). I am not your enemy. I only ask that all study the history of Immigration in our country and try to understand why we are where we are and who is ultimately responsible. It has taken hundreds of years for us to get to this point, yet you lay all on the blame on Hispanics, legal and illegal.

Tell us about yourself and how you reached such an extremist view (go back to your own words "delegitimized" and "genocided" .

Dee said...

I also believe their are opportunities for compromise and both PRO and ANTI citizens need to come back together and we all should be unified in our great USA.

ultima said...

Dee, I see that Olberman rated Limbaugh as "worst" last night, just above O'Reilly rated as "worse". Not the kind of spokesmen I would want for our movement.

ultima said...

Amendment ot S.1335

In General- The Government of the United States shall preserve and enhance the role of English as the official language of the United States. However,nothing in this Act shall be construed to inhibit or make illegal the private or non-governmental use of foreign languages by individuals or businesses. Businesses may require its employeees, as a condition of employment, to speak exclusively English on the business premises, without incurring any sanctions from federal, state and local authorities for doing so.

Tanstaafl said...

I'm not angry at all Latinos. I'm angry at Ladeeenyos. You continue to obstinately ignore the difference, just as you deny the extremism of Ladeeenyos.

I'm against the invaders and those who aid and abet them from within. It is mostly Ladeeenyos. That's a fact, and because of your ethnocentric bias it's all you can see. It so blinds you that you impart your own bias to me.

Imagine a million Eskimos a year were invading. Would you even be blogging about immigration? I would.

For me the problem goes beyond Ladeeenyos. I blame Bush, Chertoff, Kennedy, McCain and many others. The invaders are not just innocent impoverished Mexicans, and the people destroying my country include native born Americans.

You know what though? Suppose the problem was purely Ladeeenyos. How would that make my position any less valid? Because you can more easily call me a racist? I don't care what you call me.

Bring some facts. Bring some reason. Then maybe you won't lose arguments.

Dee said...

Sweet Tan, I don´t have to call you a racist or a xenophobe. You would like it to much. That would support your argument. You must admit you are an extremist. All anyone has to do is go to your website. I invite participants here to click on your name and go there. I want them to see I do not make up the bogeymen out there. All of the ANTI information I post is factual. You are out there. Way out there.

Dee said...

Ulty, Talking to Tan helps me understand how slightly right leaning, middle of the road you are. You are willing to compromise.

I think many PROs would agree to the Official English bill if we all understand the specifics and the limits and any associated bills tied to it.

Go to Thomas. See the related bills. Part of me is also thinking that the reason the ANTIs are pushing so hard to get it passed now is due to the 2008 election and the push to stop Spanish speakers from voting.

Dee said...

Tan, I was reading your latest blog. Gee Tan. You have to listen to your neighbors.

From Tan´s blog:
I've had recent conversations with a few other local Anglo/Guero/Pilgrims and mentioned that I'm leaving.

"Why?", they ask.

"Because we don't want to live in Aztlan", I say.

"Aztlan? What's that?" When I explain they screw up their face. "What? That's not true. You believe in conspiracy theories? What are you, an ignorant racist?"

------------
Gosh Tan. Listen to your neighbors. Please. What you are actually opposed to is American citizens who are Hispanics rising in numbers.

Listen to your neighbors Tan. Slow down. Be calm.

I suggest you read more about the Immigration laws of 1924:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

Tanstaafl said...

You and I are extremely far apart dee, but I have no fear that most of my countrymen feel as I do. I am not the extremist. I think you are.

The are several reasons more of them don't speak as I do: Fear of violence from the La Raza reconquistas you won't mention. Fear of being called names, like those you call me. And finally, most just don't know what's really going on because our media doesn't report honestly about the true depth of the disastrous effects of immigration.

The truth helps me. It hurts you.

Tanstaafl said...

Why do you keep assuming I don't know my country's history?

Dee said...

Tan, There are far more KKK,rabid Minutemen (like Jeff Schwilk and his MMs), Militia, Aryan Nation, Skin Heads, etc. bogeymen than the so called Azatlanists.

Tan, you forget we live in America. Everyone can see for themselves.

We need to study History to see why we are where we are.

I am not your enemy. I am an American. I am a grandmother. I support work ethic, patriotism, supporting the military.

Tan, I will bet you a quarter if you met me you would like me.

Stop with your Ladeeenyo rhetoric.

We as a nation need to come together and ward off the true enemy.

If you want to complain about the Immigration issues we have today, go back to 1924. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

Go to the Bracero Programs. Go to the Corporate lobbyists (like the Sugar Beet Corps). Go to the partnerships our administration has had with MX and other Southern governments for the past 200 years.

Stop the hate Tan. Let´s work together on resolving these issues. They can be resolved. Come on Tan. Come on!!

Tanstaafl said...

The Ladeeenyo identity isn't my creation, and it isn't up to me to stop it.

I've met Jeff Schwilk. I've met other Minutemen. They are fine upstanding Americans, deeply concerned about America. There isn't a racist among them. They are your bogeymen.

La Raza is real. They are your leaders. Answer that.

Tanstaafl said...

Holding up a mirror to your Ladeeenyo misinformation is "hate".

Translation: You've got no argument.

Dee said...

You call Jeff Schwilk a loyal American?? Well good luck to you. Go ask his ex Christie. Ask her what she thinks. The fact that people from this group were charged terrorizing innocent migrant labor camps. They are charged with violence, threats, terrorizing various groups. Even the overall MMs disassociate themselves from their group and they were all ostracized. This means nothing to you.

This is very telling about you Tan.

Dee said...

More about Jeff:

San Diego Minutemen take year-round pleasure in scaring immigrants. On Saturday mornings, when they travel to the sleepy suburban gas stations where immigrant day laborers go to find work, they create scenes that would play well in a show called "Nativists Gone Wild." They call immigrants "wetbacks" and "Julios." They pull out Mace and threaten passing motorists who disagree with them. Calling those who hire day laborers "slavemasters," they've been known to slap flashing amber police lights on their SUVs and chase the would-be employers down. When they're not busy physically intimidating migrants, they take to the airwaves and the Internet to accuse them, without a shred of evidence, of running child prostitution rings and practicing "voodoo Santeria rituals."

Dee said...

One more thing Tan. If you didn´t make up the term Ladeeenyo, please tell me who did. I want to go play on his website for a while.

Tanstaafl said...

I'll stand with the San Diego Minutemen any day of the week. That you don't like them is fine with me.

Still nothing about MEChA from you. La Raza's slogan is just my "hate" right? Villaraigosa, Bustamante, ring any bells? Like them you refuse to acknowledge the brown supremacists in your "PRO" leadership, much less distance yourself from them.

AFAIK I'm the first one to use the spelling Ladeeenyo. "Your people" have been identifying themselves by saying it for a lot longer than that.

Dee said...

Tan, You are wrong. The majority of PROs do not support or have any affiliation with the people you term as Aztlanists. They are a fringe group, much smaller than the KKK,MMs, Militias, Aryan Nations and others that support your side.

Shame on you for supporting Schilke and his ilk. That is more telling than anything.

Dee said...

Also, do a google search on ladeeenyo. The only name that comes up is yours. Hmmmm. What does that mean??

Tanstaafl said...

Please explain (though I realize you will likely not) how a large number of Latino college students, including those who have risen to high public office, are "fringe". They joined an "Aztlanist" organization called MEChA. The A stands for Aztlan.

Many more proudly declare their support for La Raza. Will you acknowledge it's brown supremacist slogan? How many believe the southwest US is "stolen land"? From my personal, first hand experience I know all these anti-American beliefs are mainstream. You assert they aren't. I believe me.

I invite the many Americans who are curious about these things to google them. You will have to dig. Make sure you read through the apologia and get down to some objective information. Read it all. Then decide which explanations make more sense.

I'm not a member of the KKK, the MM, Aryan Nation, or any militia. I'm simply an American citizen who is fed up with the invasion. I'm doing what I can to fight it, mostly by calling attention to it. Our pro-invasion media isn't doing their job. And neither is our government.

The reason you lose arguments dee, is that you do not argue. You're a siren singing "compromise" who accuses anyone who rejects your crypto-treasonous positions as a "hater". Shame on you. You have no right to act like you are morally superior to me. You aren't.

If you cared about America you wouldn't be trying to figure out how to trick Americans into accepting responsibility for millions of poor, uneducated, uninvited aliens, many of whom have hostile or selfish intentions.

I've answered your Ladeeenyo questions several times now. Stop being obtuse. Reread what I wrote. I provided you a link to an example on my blog days ago.

Tanstaafl said...

FWIW Here's a link for anyone too lazy to google. It basically recapitulates what I've said.

Careful, it's full of "hate speech", ie. things Ladeeenyos don't want you to know.

patriot said...

I am opposed to all racist groups but where do you get your facts that there are more members of the KKK, etc. than there are of Mecha, etc.? And more importantly what is the revelancy of it? Since there are more Non- Hispanics in this country than Hispanics, percentage wise it would seem that Non-Hispanics would have a higher ratio of belonging to ANY group. How about some proof where population ratio's to ethnic group are applied, that this proves there are more KKKers than Azlantizas, etal?

A racist group is a racist group and it doesn't matter if you have a dozen who belong to one group and only six in another. It is silly to use that as an argument for whatever you are trying to claim.

Dee said...

Tan, You are totally off base. I feel so sad for you.

I did google Mecha. Here is what it said: Mecha Philosophy M.E.Ch.A is a student organization that promotes higher education, culture, and history.

The link is wikipedia, so you know it is not a bias link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEChA

Then you post a Ron Paul link with the definition. Oh come on. What do you expect from an ANTI like him. Of course he shows his bias.

Shame on you. Post something neutral.

I´ll give you some hateful ANTI links that are REAL and very popular with your crowd:
. VDare
http://www.vdare.com/taylor/051108_citizenism2.htm

. San Diego Minutemen:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2007/08/07/san-diego-minutemen-linked-to-white-supremacists/

. alipac.us rantingsÑ
http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=79649

These groups are bad enough and they are only the middle of the road ANTIs. You still have the KKK, Stormwatch and the extremists.

Yikes!! Much worse than anything you have provided!!

Dee said...

Tan, Back to point. I am a loyal American. The point of my blog is to ask everyone to study history to understand what occurred to bring us to our current state. Our Immigration policies are broken. They need to be repaird. We need Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

All rational Americans know it would be devastating to our country if all 12M were mass deported. We do need to bring them out of the shadows and establish a plan to document and register them.

Make sense man. Come up with solutions.

We need to advance and come together as a nation. Stop trying to divide us. We need to be united.

Dee said...

Tan, Please study the Immigration Act of 1924.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

Ask yourself what Gompers motivation was. Ask yourself why severe limits were put on Chinese, Southern and Eastern Immigration were imposed. Ask yourself why they advocated "no limits to Latin American Immigration."

We are where we are due to the lobbyists, Big Business, the Administration and the gullibility and wants of the American public.

Study history and you have the answers.

Dee said...

My father was a troquero to bring in migrant workers to MI from TX and MX. He was hired by the state of Michigan and the Farm Bureaus who were led by the Sugar Beet corporations. I have a Proclamation my Dad received from the Gov of MI for the work he did.

patriot said...

History isn't going to SOLVE our illegal immigration problem but what we become proactive at doing today can. Like our government finally enforcing our immigration laws on all levels, securing our borders and making sure that employers have a foolproof way of checking an employees right to work in the country. Cutting off all citizen benefits to illegals and passing HR1940 which is another magnet attracting them to our country should also be part of the plan.

Dee said...

Pat, I agree with secure borders and employer sanctions.
Then we need to find a way to bring the 12M out of the shadows, identify them, document them, establish some path to earned citizenship.

We all know our country cannot endure the mass deportation of 12M people. Realistically, this is not going to happen. Instead a registration process is the most logical approach. I am comfortable with Ultima´s registration process. It would be a start.

Tanstaafl said...

There are far more than 12M illegals. Their numbers do not give them the right to stay. If we can afford the time and effort to give them security checks and issue IDs and pay for their school and healthcare and prison (as you advocate) then we can equally afford to escort each and every one back where they were born. You and others who assert we cannot do this always neglect to explain why.

Here's my comprehensive immigration solution:

+ End birthright citizenship. No more invader babies.

+ Complete a solid wall along our southern border. If invaders start coming from Canada build one there too. The cost will quickly be recouped in savings from social programs currently swamped by illegal immigrants.

+ Seek out and deport (after brief incarceration) anyone here illegally. ID them. If they are caught again the incarceration will be longer. Anyone who wants to avoid this "oppression" and apply for legal entry should leave on their own.



+ All govt operations in English only.

+ Severely reduce all legal immigration. Bar all Muslims.

This should all seem reasonable to anyone whose loyalties and interests are pro-America. If you disagree explain why, otherwise Americans are justified to assume you have some other priority.

I've told you this before dee. The US constitution and all of US immigration history, including the 1924 stuff you are so obsessed with, sets a very clear precedent: We the People can set whatever immigration policy We deem fit. And We can change it to suit Our will any time We wish. Do you have any respect for American constitution, laws, or precedents?

You openly sympathize with illegal invaders and seek to legitimatize them. That is your right. But you have no grounds to lecture me about "dividing" anybody, or to act like you know the law or history (or even your own ethnic organizations apparently) better than I do. What you want will destroy my country. I will oppose it until either the invaders are gone or they have silenced me.

Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob said...

[second try with revised URL]

We AMERICANS don't need to "solve" the illegal immigration problem, we need to round them up and send them back home. Bob has drafted provisions for a proposed new "Immigration Reform Act" that would actualy reform immigration and recapture OUR cuntry. Draft Immigraton Reform Act

Anti-American traitors and foreigners views are irrelevant to American policy. Many Spanish origin peopel who's ancestors were here before the Treaty of Hildalgo are welcome to stay. ALL of the illegal "wetback" and desert rats need to go home.
Bob

Tanstaafl said...

Of course many of the illegal aliens would not need to be apprehended and deported. They would deport themselves the minute our government took serious steps toward enforcing our immigration laws internally.

This is a rather inconvenient fact invasion supporters/defeatists never address.

Bob said...

Agreed, Tanstaafl. The "Immigration Reform Act" that Bob proposed, see above comment, would cause a stampeed for the border of unprecidented proportions. Once the government takes immigrtion seriously, the illegals will go home.

Dee said...

Tan, Secure Borders and Employer sanctions are part of my plan. I doubt you will ever get agreement, even from your side, on Mass Deportation. Jus Soli is not likely to change any time soon. We probably will see more of a virtual wall vs solid 700 mile or 2000 mile wall on either border.

Bob said...

Dee said, "My father was a troquero to bring in migrant workers to MI from TX and MX. He was hired by the state of Michigan and the Farm Bureaus who were led by the Sugar Beet corporations."

Indeed. State goverments have been operating against the interests of Americans for decades. The state of California and probably many others have flagrantly enabled illegal workers for years -- local politicians are easily bought.

Criminal activity by state and local officials does not make treason and illegal immigration into law abiding work.

Dee said...

Bob, Interesting proposals. Many of yours are similar to Tan´s, as I would suspect after checking out your blog.

You are not going to deport any citizens, so you may as well take that one off your list.

Bob - I notice some very profane language on your blog. I ask you not to use that language here.
I do want you to discuss but no profane language please.

patriot said...

If my immigration plan is implemented the illegals would come out of the shadows and go home. Under no circumstances am I in favor of giving them a path to citizenship unless they go home first and come legally like they should have done in the first place.

We may see some economic downfall when they leave but our economy has gotten too big for it's britches anyway. There will be a lot more positives then negatives with their self-removal. Americans will get paid a fair wage for jobs they once held, our taxes will go down from not having to subsidize their healthcare and education. We will live in less crowded conditions and there will be more natural resources for Americans to go around.

Tanstaafl said...

I'm a little tired of the "we can't do this, we can't do that", especially from anyone who is proposing radical, unprecedented, ginormous plans of their own.

I like the way bob and patriot think. We're not "extremists" dee. We're not going to accept the immigration invasion. The more people who find out what kind of shenanigans have been going down, the more loyal (and pissed) Americans are going to stand up and say that.

Dee said...

Even the ANTI group "Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform" says "mass deportation-an impossible concept"

Dee said...

Tan, I agree that illegal immigration has significantly decreased this year and a high rate are repatriating. We are seeing the impacts, particularly in farm labor. Weinstein says the crops are rotting on the vine.

What will the impact be if this continues. I guess we will just wait and see. A few months back I wrote about the ebbs and flows of Immigration. It is happening again.

http://immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com/2007/08/illegal-immigration-significantly-down.html

Tanstaafl said...

You're not listening dee. Where there's a will there's a way. We don't need "mass deportations". We need moderate deportations (say 1-2M), serious enforcement internally (status check for jobs, accounts, licenses, housing, criminals), a secure border that helps keep them out, and stiffer penalties all around for breaking immigration laws.

You're stuck on "we can't deport them all", perhaps because you don't want to deport any. I don't know. Why don't you tell us who you would deport.

Tanstaafl said...

You provide all the speculation you want about losses due to food rotting and we'll see if it equals the savings in schools, hospitals, crime/jail, etc.

By all means we deserve a FULL accounting of the costs of illegal immigration, not just the benefits for some businesses willing to sell out their country for a profit.

Tanstaafl said...

Here's a wonderful video about the "fringe" Aztlanists. In the words of Ladeeenyos themselves, to large cheering crowds.

Listen to how they identify themselves then tell me again how "Ladeeenyo" is some silly word I invented.

Liquidmicro said...

"Crops rotting on the vines!!"

Mechanization is the way forward. Seems some farmers are already finding that out.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-25-blueberry-maine_N.htm#uslPageReturn

"A decade ago, about 20% of Maine's 60,000 acres of blueberry fields were harvested by mechanical means. Today, it's about 80% as growers discover that it's cheaper to replace hand pickers with more efficient machinery."

"Harvesting blueberries costs roughly 16 to 17 cents a pound by hand and about 10 cents a pound with a mechanical harvester, he said. When prices fall, the savings can mean the difference between a profit and a loss."

Liquidmicro said...

Blueberry farms turn to mechanical harvesters

Google article from USA today.

URL above doesn't link.

phactoid said...

I urge every citizen who cares about saving our country to write their senator in opposition to the "Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits and Security Act of 2007" (AgJOBS) This bill will allow illegal alien agricultural workers to legalize their immigration status.

I received news of this bill via a letter from Senator Dianne Feinstein. Her logic is that since the "immigration reform" bill has failed, that she and her colleagues will try to pass a series of smaller bills to achieve the same results, i.e., legal status for invaders.

It's amazing that the overwhelming majority of Americans are against any kind of legalization, yet our politicians continue to try to jam it down our throats. What part of no don't they understand? The Ladeenyos can immigrate legally to this country like everyone else in the world does, or not at all.

I also urge everyone to visit the website of "Mothers Against Illegal Aliens."
http://www.mothersagainstillegalaliens.org/
This organization defends the rights of American children. They defend their birthright and seek to make certain that illegal alien children do not take the educational resources of American children.

Are you tired of federal immigration laws not being enforced? Has it ever occurred to you that the fact that they are not is unconstitutional? Please write to your senator and congressman and ask them to create and chair a committee to investigate whether the President has violated his constitutional oath to faithfully execute the office of the President (as set forth in Article II section 1) and his constitutional duty to faithfully execute the law (as set forth in Article II section 3); specifically, failure to execute federal laws regarding US border security and criminal law enforcement against illegal aliens and their employers.

We don't have to roll over and accept this invasion. Dee is a siren song, "remain calm, don't worry." Wake up! This is your country. There are many Americans not speaking the double speak of political correctness. Efforts to stop the invaders are working! The laws recently enacted in Oklahoma, Georgia, and Arizona are resulting in illegals leaving those states in droves. See
http://www.steinreport.com/archives/010700.html

Imagine how many would leave if immigration laws were actually enforced by the federal government?

Dee said...

Tan, I´ve seen this bogus You Tube video before. It was made up by AZPatriot, an extremist ANTI. He took out of context audio clips and overlayed them on various march footage.

Some of your side likes to incite riots.

Dee said...

Hey Liquid, Long time... Yes, we have been talking about mechanization and it is a good idea.

I contacted the Farm Owner from the Cherry fields where I picked crops as a child (as a migrant laborer).

She said they used mechanized Cherry Pickers as much as possible, but there is still a need for workers and they do have severe shortages. I guess that is why they started the "Venga a Michigan" program this year.

patriot said...

I see no reason to grant citizenship to Ag workers whether they be here legally or illegally. They should be given temporary work visas to do that kind of work only and then go back home when there are no crops to pick with the option of coming back seasonally for a limited amount of time to pick again.

Dee said...

Phac, thank you for referring this bill. I am checking the Thomas website now. Looks like it is S340.

I will read it over and study a few websites before I respond in detail about this bill.

At first glance, it looks like your statements are way off base. This is a Guest Worker program for Agriculture. Blue Card = Guest Worker.

Also Phac, all of us who comment on this blog are well educated and are discussing these issues civilly. We welcome you here, but there is no need to come here and attempt to shut off conversation. We are here to discuss.

phactoid said...

My information about this bill comes directly from a letter I received from Dianne Feinstein. She herself says that the purpose is to grant legal status to "migrant agricultural workers." And she also says she is doing it because of the failure of the Immigration Reform Act that she supported. Excuse me Dee if I believe a Senator's explanation of what is in the bill over yours.

About not being civil. I've noticed that you say that to anyone who disagrees with you. It's some kind of pathetic attempt to make yourself look reasonable. Self righteous nonsense.

Dee said...

phac, This bill will allow Guest Worker status for Ag workers.

It is in the Thomas archive and Feinstein also said this in recent news reports.

She also said in district, crops are rotting on the vine. She acknowledges our severe labor shortages.

phactoid said...

I posted the following comment on Tran's site "Age of Treason" http://age-of-treason.blogspot.com/

I noticed that Dee has copied many of her comments and posted them on Tran's site.

As a mother of three American children under the age of 12, I have personally experienced what it's like to be a minority in a US school district that is 65% Latino. Yes, minorities can be white. Start getting used to it. Here is the post:

As a mother with young children who are experiencing a second rate education because of the Latino invasion, I can tell you that it is costing our future -- our children -- dearly. My children are being discriminated against because they are American citizens. Money, resources, and time are taken from their education in order to educate the illegal children and anchor babies.

And it's far more costly to our future and the lives of American children than one might think. Our school district is 65% Latino the majority of which are classified as ESL ("English Second Language"). Many of these kids come to this country having little and often no education or school experience at all. It has reeked havoc on our school system.

The school district is afraid of being sued by the ACLU, La Raza, etc. So they do not put these kids in their own classrooms to be taught at a level that they need. That would be segregation! That would be racist! Rather, they classify them strictly by age without regard for their educational level. For example, a group of 9-year-old illegals will be put into a fourth grade class of American kids, even though they have had very little if any education in Mexico. The result is that the teacher not only has to spend his/her time trying to teach these children English, but also has to teach them 1rst, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade material as well.

Add to this time also the extra paper work and government required evaluations. The federal and state government require that these children be tested and evaluated every 30 days. It's killing the teachers, they are exhausted.

It's easy to see that our future, American children, are at the back of the bus. The teachers must focus on illegals before American kids. More scrutiny is given of their education than the education of our own children -- that is the requirement of our government! And, moreover, the school does it because they and the school district fear that if they put American children first that they will be decried as "racist" and sued by the ACLU, La Raza, and other hate groups. These are the true racists.

Our children have a right to be treated like the gold they are. This is their birthright. It's time to stand up to the racists and do what is best for our children. The more our children are deprived of education time and resources, the more our country will suffer in innovation, leadership, and wisdom.

Dee said...

Feinstein Letter:
Passing AgJOBS

The American farmer is today on a precipice. And whether he or she survives to plant another season is determined largely by one simple question: Will there be enough workers to bring in the harvest?

Increasingly, there are not. In 2006, growers in California reported their harvesting crews were down by as much as 20 percent.

The costs are in the stratosphere. If the labor shortage continues, it means $3 billion a year in the short-term and as much as $4.1 billion a year in the long-term. Just in California.

That’s why I introduced the AgJOBS bill. This bi-partisan legislation would help to ease the severe worker shortage. We know that there are plenty of people willing and able to do the work. And these workers deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

The AgJOBS bill is a two-part bill. Part one would create a pilot program to identify undocumented agricultural workers and legalize the immigration status (Blue Card = Guest Worker status) for those who have been working in the United States for the past two years or more. The second part would create a more usable H-2A program to implement a realistic and effective guest worker program.

The AgJOBS bill is supported by growers, farmers, and farm workers.

Dee said...

Phac, We do have a severe labor shortage. Have you heard of the Venga a Michigan program?

http://www.michaglabor.org/news/2007_03_04_LSJ.jsp

Tanstaafl said...

Shoot all the messengers you want dee. Ignore whatever you don't want to hear. You never heard about AgJobs? I'm sure you'll love it. It's full of double-speak.

It's the people you're advocating for who riot. They are ethnically cleansing my country. They know it. They preen openly about it. They've been told they're reconquering stolen land.

The fact that you deny these realities, that you try to flip it around and blame loyal Americans upset at this totally unjust situation is outrageous. You have sided with aliens and are betraying your country.

It's clear to me that's what you're all about. And hopefully anybody else who reads this thread, if they had any illusions about immigration, will hopefully see how bankrupt your "compromise" is, how futile it is to negotiate with you or anyone else who starts from the position "we have to accomodate the invaders". No. We don't.

phactoid said...

Okay Dee. I see that you don't trust me that's fine. I don't trust you either.

The following is the entire contents of the personal letter I received from Dianne Feinstein.

Thank you for writing to me about the immigration reform debate that has been taking place during the 110th Congress.

The current immigration system is not working -- our borders are broken, our national security is compromised, and there is no feasible way to identify and deal with the 10 to 12 million undocumented people now living in the United States. I understand there were mixed reactions to the bipartisan bill that the Senate considered and that there are very strong feelings about this issue. I believe that while that bill was not perfect, it was a reasonable compromise.

Unfortunately, the comprehensive immigration reform bill has stalled in the Senate. Therefore, I believe the next step must be to pass the individual priorities contained within the larger bill, starting with the "Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits and Security Act of 2007" (AgJOBS). AgJOBS is an important bill to address the current labor shortage facing agriculture today. It will allow certain undocumented agricultural workers to legalize their immigration status in the United States if they can show that they have been working in agriculture and commit to continue working in agriculture for three to five years. It will also reform the current H-2A agricultural guest worker program to streamline the process for applying for a legal workforce.

Again, thank you for writing. I have enclosed a copy of a floor statement I gave when immigration reform was first brought up for debate for your review, so that you may better understand my position on this issue. I hope that you will continue to write on matters of importance to you. Best Regards.

END OF LETTER.

Yes Dee, the bill will "also reform the current H-2A agricultural guest worker program." But first and foremost (that's why the Guest Worker program is an ALSO item in the letter, it's not the main purpose of the legislation) it "will allow certain undocumented agricultural workers to legalize their immigration status in the US if they can show that they have been working in agriculture and commit to continue working in agriculture for three to five years."

Legalization. Amnesty. Plain and simple. Is this option being offered to the thousands all over the world who patiently wait in line and follow the rules to become citizens of this country? No it is not. Illegals can apply for citizenship anytime they want and follow the rules like everyone else. They choose not to take that option.

Tanstaafl said...

This is how you argue. You ignore what ever facts you find inconvenient.

Let anybody who built a business on black market labor go out of business. The cost of that will be canceled out or exceeded by the savings to the taxpayer from not having to support those workers. Wages for legal residents will go up.

Dee said...

Phac, Blue Card is Guest Worker is Legal Status so we are all saying the same thing. However, Guest Worker aspect is totally different than what you are calling Amnesty or legal Citizen status.

phactoid said...

The following is the contents of a letter I sent in response to Dianne Feinstein's letter. If you care about saving our country, then please feel free to copy the contents of my letter and paste it into your word processor of choice. Then send it to your senators and congressmen.

START OF LETTER

Dianne Feinstein
United State Senator
331 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510

Re: Your letter dated July 26, 2007.

Dear Ms. Feinstein,

If you vote in favor of the "Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits and Security Act of 2007" (AgJOBS), I will never vote for you or anyone in your political party at any level of government.

If you propose or vote in favor of any legislation that gives illegal aliens or their children or extended family members any kind of legal status in the US and/or health care, education, jobs, subsidies, or benefits of any kind, I will never vote for you or anyone in your political party at any level of government.

If you propose or vote in favor of any legislation that expands LEGAL immigration in anyway, I will never vote for you or anyone in your political party at any level of government.

Author and introduce legislation that closes our national borders to all illegal entry and then vote in favor of it. If such legislation is authored and introduced by another senator, congressman, or the President then vote for it provided it does not give illegal aliens or their children or extended family members any kind of legal status in the US and/or health care, education, jobs, subsidies, or benefits of any kind.

Do not support any legislation in favor of NAFTA or the NAFTA super highway. Author and introduce legislation that protects the sovereign borders of the US by stopping the NAFTA super highway and the Kansas City Smart Port.

Create and chair a senate committee to investigate whether the President of the United States has violated his constitutional oath to faithfully execute the office of the President (as set forth in Article II section 1) and his constitutional duty to faithfully execute the law (as set forth in Article II section 3); specifically, failure to execute federal laws regarding US border security and criminal law enforcement against illegal aliens and their employers.

END OF LETTER

Dee said...

Tan, As a process engineer-program/project manager, I conduct analysis, id root cause and always use facts.

Dee said...

Phac, Recommendation for your letter: After the words "I will never vote for you or anyone in your political party at any level of government." show a pix of a child stamping her foot.

phactoid said...

If you do not know what the NAFTA Super Highway is, I encourage you to find out. Every American should know that a Spanish company is building a toll road (they will collect the tolls exclusively) that is football fields wide to expedite commercial trucking from Mexico. The highway is under construction in Texas and will extend from the Texas/Mexican border through Texas, through Oklahoma, to Kansas City. The "Kansas City Smart Port" which is being constructed is the final destination. This smart port will be the sovereign territory of Mexico (much like an embassy in that way) and it will be at that port that Mexico will conduct border inspection of the trucks that have come via the NAFTA super highway.

Some highlights of this project include:

1. The NAFTA Super Highway will have no on or off ramps. It is a straight shot to the KC Smart Port.

2. No American business will be allowed to set up any gas station, restaurant, or any other money making enterprise along the highway. Such businesses will be constructed, owned, and operated by the Spanish company who controls the highway.

3. All revenues from the tolls will go to the Spanish company. None to the US.

4. There will be no inspection at the Texas/Mexican border. The only inspection will be at the KC Smart Port and it will be conducted by the Mexican government as the Smart Port will be their sovereign territory.

5. The Texas governor (by the way the legislature has been fighting the governor, but the governor has vetoed all legislation resisting the NAFTA highway) authorized and instituted a separate court system in Texas, designed to speed and facilitate the numerous eminent domain takings of ranchers' property that are necessary so that the NAFTA super highway can be built.

The Supreme Court's recent Kelo decision (within the last year or two) allows the government to take private property via eminent domain if the taking is for the "public good." The constitution says that the extraordinary eminent domain power must be for "public use." Before 2 years ago, throughout the history of our country, the eminent domain power has been used to eminent domain private property for the purpose of building schools or inter state highway (Federal government highway, a US highway, not a foreign company's highway). But the Supremes decided in Kelo that a home owner had to give up their home to eminent domain so that a shopping mall could be built. The Supremes decided that the tax revenues and jobs created by this privately owned shopping mall constituted the "public good" and thereby expanded the constitutions explicit language of "public use." This has paved the way for the eminent domain takings that make the NAFTA Super Highway construction possible.

This is shocking stuff. It has taken me months to accept it. Many sleepless nights. One of the most troubling aspects of it is why doesn't the media cover this? Why is there this absolute silence? It appears to be some kind of effort to prevent the American public from knowing until it is too late. Much like the way the Immigration Reform Bill was discussed amongst a very few in power behind closed doors followed by a quick attempt to pass it before the public had a chance to debate or discuss it. At least in that case, once the bill was first voted on there was media coverage (which eventually snowballed).

Here are some links about the NAFTA Super Highway. Judge for yourself.

Oklahomans and Texans fighting the NAFTA Super Highway:

http://www.oklahomacorridorwatch.com/
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xj4eqQsMg-AJ:www.jbs.org/node/4134+n...
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15682

Dee said...

Phac, I think you read too many ANTI blogs. Here is neutral info on the SPP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_and_Prosperity_Partnership_of_North_America

phactoid said...

Sorry about that second link. Here is the corrected link regarding the NAFTA super highway.

http://stopspp.com/stopspp/?p=218

Dee said...

Living in TX, my assumptions the so called superhighway is Highway 35. It is the main thoroughfare from Laredo to Dallas, up to OKC, KC and northward. I have heard it is being extended to Canada.

This highway has been around a long time, since early 1900s I believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_35

Who is the so called Mexican company? I would guess there are American contractors involved. I suggest all study the facts before jumping to conclusions.

phactoid said...

Dee is interested in reading government controlled website information.

Americans are smarter than that.

It's information posted by persons who actually live and work in Oklahoma and Texas, people who know first hand what is happening that Americans listen too. Those the links that I have posted. There is also a link to an interview with Lou Dobbs about it, I think the interview is on YouTube. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm not afraid. Go see what he has to say.

Again, don't believe me, don't believe Dee. Judge for yourself. Why do we need this? Can't we inspect our own trucks? Don't we have our own interstate? Why does Mexico need a sovereign port in the heartland of the US? Does that sound like a good idea?

phactoid said...

I never said any Mexican company was involved. I said it's a Spanish company. As in SPAIN. Do you think that all persons who speak the Spanish language are Mexicans? Shame on you.

phactoid said...

Dee if you think that a Mexican company is building the NAFTA super highway you obviously need to educate yourself on the fact. :)

Dee said...

Phac, The owner of the website reference you posted is Adam Rott, founder of Oklahoma Corridor Watch. Not a very reputable source. I found nothing to legitimize his perspective.

You didn´t answer my question. What company is going to profit from the superhighway you reference? I want to look up the reference.

Dee said...

Phac, Which "Spanish company" is building the Toll Road?

There is no new cross country Toll Road being built.

We do have highway I35 which some conspiracy theorists speculate as the nafta superhighway. Is that what you mean? If so, any updates to this highway are not by a foreign company. It is an interstate.

patriot said...

I notice that dee flip flops between stressing the need for Ag workers while getting in little pot shots about a severe labor shortage in all employment areas and legalizing all 12 million illegals. Sort of a sneaky hit and run tactic.

I am only willing to agree that there may be a shortage of Ag workers but we don't need 12 million of them to pick crops. Automation could also reduce significately the need for this kind manual labor.

I like many others in this blog question her motives.

phactoid said...

The name of the Spanish (Spain) is:

Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte, S.A.,

I don't blame you for being confused. This is a lot of unsettling stuff to take in at one time. What follows is an article by Phyllis Schlafly that clearly and briefly explains the NAFTA super highway that is under construction in Texas.

BEGIN ARTICLE:

It's not just American ports that are fast slipping into foreign ownership; it's highways, too. A Spanish company, Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte, S.A., has bought the right to operate a tollroad through Texas and collect tolls for the next 50 years.

Called the Trans-Texas Corridor (TTC), on which construction is planned to begin next year, this highway would bisect Texas from its border with Mexico to Oklahoma. Hearings held by the Texas Department of Transportation this summer attracted hundreds of angry Texans.

Plans call for a ten-lane limited-access highway to parallel I-35. It would have three lanes each way for passenger cars, two express lanes each way for trucks, rail lines both ways for people and freight, plus a utility corridor for oil and natural gas pipelines, electric towers, cables for communication, and telephone lines.

Central to this plan is a massive taking of 584,000 acres of farm and ranch land at an estimated cost of $11 to $30 billion, property then lost from the tax rolls of counties and school districts. After the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Kelo v. City of New London, no one need worry about the power of eminent domain to take private property.

The Trans-Texas Corridor will be the first leg of what has been dubbed the NAFTA Super Highway to go through heartland America all the way to Canada. This would be a major lifeline of the plan to merge the United States into a North American Community.

Plans are already locked in for Kansas City Southern de Mexico Railroad to bring Chinese goods in sealed cargo containers from the southern Mexican port of Lazaro Cardinas direct to Kansas City, Missouri. Mexican trucks will be able to drive more sealed containers up the fast lanes of the NAFTA Super Highway, inspected only electronically if at all, and making their first customs stop in Kansas City.

In response to recent articles in conservative publications about the sovereignty, freedom and economic dangers that will result from President Bush creating the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) in Waco in March 2005, the SPP has issued an unconvincing rebuttal.

This SPP document starts by declaring that "our three great nations share a belief in freedom, economic opportunity, and strong democratic institutions." That's false; Mexico is a corrupt country where a few families control all the wealth while the rest of the people are kept in abject poverty with no hope of economic opportunity.

The document states that SPP's mission is to make "our businesses more competitive in the global marketplace." That's globalist doubletalk which means producing U.S. goods with cheap foreign labor, thereby destroying the U.S. middle class.

The document states that SPP wasn't "signed" by Bush at Waco. But when Bush went to Cancun in March 2006, he proclaimed the first anniversary of whatever he had agreed to in Waco in 2005, and he sent Michael Chertoff to Ottawa to take "an important first step" toward whatever Bush did or didn't sign in Waco.

The document denies that SPP's working groups are secret, but SPP won't release the names of who is serving on them. The document denies that SPP will "cost U.S. taxpayer money" because SPP is using "existing budget resources" (no doubt coming from the fairy godmother).

Thanks to the internet, we can often find out more about the doings of the Bush Administration from the foreign press than from the U.S. media. An article written in Spanish from a Mexican perspective one year ago fully described the plan for the "deep integration" of the three North American countries.

Economist and researcher Miguel Pickard explained that although the plan is sometimes called NAFTA Plus, there will be no single treaty text and nothing will be submitted to the legislatures of the three countries. The elites plan to implement their shared vision of "a merged future" through "the signing of 'regulations' not subject to citizens' review."

Pickard revealed a series of three meetings of a new entity called the Independent Task Force on the Future of North America (ITF). After secretly conniving in Toronto, New York and Monterrey, the ITF called for a unified North American Border Action Plan (i.e, open borders among the three countries), and the three countries then signed "close to 300 regulations."

The United States was represented at the ITF by Robert Pastor, who has been working for years to promote North American integration. Pickard revealed that Pastor is in "constant dialogue" with Jorge G. Castaneda, Vicente Fox's foreign relations adviser.

Pickard is convinced that George W. Bush is "vigorously pushing" the idea of a "North American community." Pickard concluded that the schedule calls for beginning with a customs union, then a common market, then a monetary and economic union, and finally the adoption of a single currency (already baptized as the "amero" by Robert Pastor).

END OF ARTICLE.

For those of you who want to read the article where it resides go to

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/aug06/06-08-23.html

For a long time the actions of President Bush regarding immigration made absolutely no sense to me. But now that I know that he wants there to be an AMERO, an Union of the Americas with no borders whatsoever in an attempt to emulate the European Union and their EURO, Bush's unconstitutional behavior, i.e., failing to faithfully execute border security and immigration law, makes complete sense.

I don't agree with it of course. I think he's a traitor and is doing it for self-interested reasons, he does own property in Texas and he was governor there for many years. So I'm sure there is a money making angle for himself and his many rich friends. What a patriot! Viva El Presidente!

phactoid said...

I have trouble with blogspot truncating my links. The full link is as follows

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/
aug06/06-08-23.html

Anonymous said...

Dee
Do you acknowledge that the illegal hispanic(majority Mexican) and all those anchor babies are truly affecting our school system? Do you care that bilingual and ESL programs have to be placed in every school? Do you see how this is affecting our children? Do you even care?

Dee said...

Phac, That is highway I 35 in Phyllis´link.

Dee said...

It is not a tollway.

Dee said...

I finally found a legitimate source for what you are referencing
http://www.keeptexasmoving.com/index.php/trans-texas_corridor

Dee said...

Here is what TX DOT says:
Acknowledging that Texans and ultimately the Federal Highway Administration will have the final say, the Texas Department of Transportation released on September 28th a plan proposing the first phase of Trans-Texas Corridor 35 (TTC-35) including a connection to Interstate 35 south of San Antonio and a long-sought loop for the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

And it is I 35


http://www.keeptexasmoving.com/index.php/news/New_Master_Development_Plan_for_TTC-35_Unveiled

Dee said...

Anonymous, we welcome you to our discussion but will you please make up a name for yourself? John or Sue will do. Whatever you prefer. If we get too many anonymous here, we cannot differentiate who we respond to.

Dee said...

Anon, Regarding language in school. There are so many generalities and assumptions. I prefer facts. In my suburb, all classes are in English. There is a preschool program offered by our city which provides for English immersion. It is very helpful in helping students who may be having difficulty learning English in assimilating quickly. My grandsons are both in school and they have a great time, are very smart and pretty good athletes at 6 and 8, just like my husband.

Anonymous said...

Dee
I see only 1 anonymous posting on this particular subject. Is this your way of avoiding answering the question? You really do that quite well I must admit.

phactoid said...

Hey Dee,

You make yourself look desperate and purposefully obtuse. The article itself says that the super highway will PARALLEL I-35. That means it will be constructed parallel to it. "Plans call for a ten-lane limited-access highway to parallel I-35." That's what Schlafly says precisely.

Facts are facts. I'm sorry Dee.

I think you are posting such miss statement of the facts state plainly in the article because you think the average American is too lazy or too stupid to read it carefully. We are the greatest nation in the world with the most intelligent people on the planet. Stop insulting us.

Many of us who read your blog and have posted here have questioned your motives. You validate our suspicions.

The subject of this thread on your blog is "Why ANTIs are winning the Argument right now." This is exactly why. Because we have facts and we present facts. And more and more of us are learning the facts and we are holding them up to the light of day. We are coming out of the shadows. Get used to it.

Dee said...

Phac, Here is what you are missing. All the articles you are posting are opinion pieces from primarily extreme ANTI websites.

The url I provided was from the TX Dept of Transportation.

Dee said...

Actually, anyone reading this blog will see I post legitimate sources. They see you are posting from ANTI extremist sites like:
. WorldNet Daily (yikes)
. OklahomaCorridorWatch

various discussion boards,
or Opinion pieces from:
. Phyllis Schlafly (yikes)

Dee said...

Phac, What people like Phyllis or WorldNet daily do is they take a smidgeon of fact and distort it into some wild conspiracy theory. They take the fact that TXDot is proposing the building of a toll road in parallel to I 35 to improve the current hopelessly congested I35. TXDOT says:
Acknowledging that Texans and ultimately the Federal Highway Administration will have the final say, the Texas Department of Transportation released on September 28th a plan proposing the first phase of Trans-Texas Corridor 35 (TTC-35) including a connection to Interstate 35 south of San Antonio and a long-sought loop for the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

phactoid said...

In response to what anonymous posted about the schools and the effect of the illegals on our own American children's education,

No Dee does not acknowledge that. Did you notice that she did not respond at all to my post on the subject because I have personal experience being the mother of three children under the age of 12 in a school district that is 65% Latino, majority of which are ESL. She has no such experience. She doesn't care about your kids, she doesn't care about my kids.

As for the illegals and their kids, it's the job of the Mexican government to care about them. But it's hopelessly corrupt. Instead of fighting for change the cowards running across our borders and filling our schools, prisons, hospitals. The cream of the crop. Those that believe in Mexico stay behind and fight.

Be proud to be American despite what Dee says. We have shown tremendous compassion to these people, much more than the Mexican government has. The Mexican government has a "zero tolerance" policy toward immigrants that come to their country illegally from central america. They are immediately deported, because after all, it's not the Mexican government's responsibility.

Trans is right about Dee. She's some sort of 5th columnist. I'm aware of this. I'm a stay at home mom with three young American kids. I understand how upsetting it is to watch your children be deprived of the public education that you and I benefited from and that is so central to our functioning as an informed, active, vibrant democracy.

Dee said...

Then, you take the fact that some private investors (some from Spain) and Texas firms and "identified a plan to relieve congestion on I-35 by investing $6 billion to build a state-owned toll road from east of San Antonio to the Dallas-Fort Worth area and to pay the state $1.2 billion for the investment opportunity." and you and Phyllis turn this into your Spanish company conspiracy theory to build a corridor from MX to Canada just shows you why your tales are so hard to believe.

Dee said...

Ok Phac, I do research and I provide facts. You speak in generalities and assumptions. Please provide me the name of your school district and I will do the research and identify whether your "phactoid" is legitimate:
"a school district that is 65% Latino, majority of which are ESL."

I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS STATEMENT. I WANT TO CHECK IT OUT.

Dee said...

Phac,
PS - Do you ever drive down I35? I drive from Dallas to San Antonio at least once a month. The congestion is horrible. I am glad they are doing something to improve that interstate.

Dee said...

Phac, Actually I had to look up 5th column. Phac, are you really such a conspiracy theorist?

I know what your issue is. You spend too much time on ANTI discussion boards where you all commiserate in your own scary conspiracy theories. I´ve seen a number of them on the web. No one ever questions the authenticity of a conspiracy claim. Then, its like the kid´s game of telephone. You feed into each other until you all believe in the bogeyman or 5th columnists.

The facts are, I am a loyal American who was born in Michigan. My father, his and his were born in TX.

The facts are, I respond to you with facts and legitimate website sources and it is difficult for you to understand that anyone can disagree with you.

phactoid said...

Many of you who feel as I do have left Dee's blog and now post on Age of Treason. If you want a real open discussion about what is going on in this country, go there.

http://age-of-treason.blogspot.com/

There is a compelling and illuminating article there about Dee and her motivations.

Dee you asked me for links. I gave them too you.

You asked me for the name of the Spanish company. I gave it to you.

You blatantly and intentionally mischaracterized the facts in Schlafly's article, which insulted everyone's intelligence.

When I present you with the facts you scramble. I'm sorry this is the reality of our government. I'm sorry the Mexican government is corrupt and compassionless. I'm sorry President Bush is in league with the corrupt Mexican government and it's ruling families.

President Bush's open borders policy make total sense in light of his push for an Amero and an American Union. I could never understand why some senators and congressmen would so blatantly ignore the wishes of the American people (80% of the American people opposed the Z Visa Immigration Reform Legislation, so many that for the first time in the history of the Senate the capitol hill phone system crashed) and continually try to jam this legislation down our throats. Now they are trying to pass it in pieces under the radar of average working hard Americans, noses to the grind stone, too busy supporting their families and, by no choice of their own, the families of the illegals who suck the public coffers dry.

Now we all know why our President feels the say he does. That there is a grand scheme to sell out our country and emulate europe's european union. What a success that's been. Those poor countries have given up their sovereignty. God help them.

It may be too late for us. I hope not. We are the most successful and prosperous nation in history. Why would we want to combine our economy with the third world? We don't. As Schafly points out, we're being sold out by El Presidente Bush and the other congressmen and senators that will profit.

Anonymous said...

phactoid--I am the parent of a son who has a masters degree in education. Upon graduating in 2005,
he found he could not get a teaching job because he was not bilingual(Spanish). He went back to school for another year to get an ESL endorsement. He then got a job being a ESL teacher. All the children in his room are Mexican and 99% of the parents of his students do not speak English. He has to send home report cards in Spanish-He has to ask for assistance in translating when the parents pick up the report cards. He is so frustrated that these children have no parental support as the parents are mostly illerate in Spanish in additon to English. Homework is not done and the parents do nothing about it. I would like to know the name of the suburb where Dee lives since her area is not experiencing what is happening in my city. Her own grandchildren are not being subjected to this nonsense. Perhaps my son should move next door to her and get a job at the school where her grandchildren go.

Dee said...

Well Phac, I am not a believer in conspiracy theories. I need to study the issues and go to sources to understand the facts.

I showed you the links from TX DOT. I shared my personal experiences on I35 and my personal experiences with the local school system here in the DFW area.

I agree there are corrupt people out there. I did not vote for our President, but he is our President, right or wrong. I am not going to demonize him. Our country has plenty of enemies. For now, Mexico is not one of them, neither is Canada. They are both our allies.

I am glad you joined my blog. Even though you and I do not agree, I respect your right to your opinion and to post whatever you like here. I hope we both learned something today.

Dee said...

Anon, I live in a DFW suburb. DFW and SA are very prosperous areas. We don´t have the issues you say your city has. We are a majority minority state however. We are very multi cultural here.

I still think you are talking Poverty areas vs anything else.

phactoid said...

Does it make sense to anyone why Dee insisted on the name of the Spanish (Spain) company building the NAFTA Super Highway, and then once she got it, she now claims that this Spanish (Spain) company is building I-35 interstate?

The US government builds interstate. Not foreign private companies.

And if Dee's position is so strong, why does she have to mischaracterize Schlafly's words? When I pointed out that she had, she shut up right quick.

And why are there websites started by private american citizens to try to stop the Nafta super highway? There are Oklahomans against it websites and Texans against it websites. All of the information about eminent domain and creating a sovereign port for Mexico in Kansas City is there.

Look, don't believe me, don't believe dee. Go and google this stuff yourselves. It's very disturbing. I frankly would rather watch Sponge Bob with my kids and see all the pretty colors. But I'm a mom, as a parent I have an obligation to protect my children.

Speaking of which. I need to go make my daughter lunch. I will be posting again soon, probably on Age of Treason. I also post on YOUTUBE. I don't have a blog of my own or a web site. I don't have time, I'm a mom.

I've enjoyed meeting you all. I'm looking forward to seeing what ultima, patriot, anonymous, trans, etc (sorry if I left any of you out) have to say. It gives me hope to read the thoughts of other Americans who are thinking critically and talking openly about the invasion. Thanks :)

Anonymous said...

What Dee-no illegals in your area?
Everyone knows English? Maybe that is why you are blinded. It is not poverty that is causing the problem, its an invasion!!

Dee said...

Phac, like I say, I am glad you visited me. You should start your own blog too. If you do, I will join when I can. I think it is good to hear everyones opinion.

phactoid said...

Anonymous I completely understand. One of my best friends got credentialed two years ago. He was teaching on a one year contract in the district and told that he would likely be renewed into a permanent teaching position. Instead what happened was he was let go because they needed to hire teachers that speak spanish. Isn't it Michael Chertoff that testified before congress and said something like "No American has lost a job to an illegal alien." That's not true. This is a case in point. Illegals are costing good hard working Americans jobs.

Please tell your son that there are still places in this country (although they are less every day) where you can still teach primarily American citizen children. Many of these states in which these communities are in have total reciprocity for teachers; meaning, they will honor his teaching credential no matter the state in which he got it. I know something about this because I've been thinking about changing professions (I'm an at home mom now but before I had kids I worked full time) and I have considered teaching (when my kids are a little older). So I looked into what was required in different states. I was worried that if I got credentialed here in a state that is so heavily illegal and ESL that I may not be able to move to another state and teach. But it's not the case.

Now I really have to make my poor daughter lunch.

Thanks everyone! :)

Dee said...

DFW is very multi cultural. We have people of almost every ethnicity here, especially in the suburbs. I don´t go around and ask people´s immigration status. We have so many ethnic churches here too, including Vietnamese. I think one of the reasons we are so multi cultural is because of the number of IT companies we have here. We have many new immigrants, major construction, jobs, etc. My husband bowls three times a week and those that bowl are very multi cultural as well. The schools are very good. All the businesses pay taxes. They have all kinds of special programs for the kids, like the language programs and many sports and activity programs. When I was in MI, they didn´t have the school activities, etc that they have here. I love TX. I will never move from here.

Tanstaafl said...

So much for the canard that immigration doesn't cost Americans their jobs. And if you get to keep your job it's only because you learned Spanish and can help the invaders take over.

Isn't multiculturalism wonderful!

dee, you sound like a decent person. But I'm sorry to say, for someone who's been discussing immigration so long you seem pretty un/misinformed about an awful lot of what is actually going on. AgJobs, MEChA, 12M, ESL. If you haven't heard about any of this before, or you think it's not such a big problem because you don't see it, then by all means do some traveling.

You might also want to pay more heed to what loyal Americans are telling you instead of getting on your ethnocentric high horse and calling people who try to inform you "extremists" who "hate all Latinos" simply because they see what you don't.

Dee said...

Tan, Now that we´ve had an opportunity to talk, I see you are not so bad yourself.

The reason I am still employed is because I am very good at my job. Ask my boss. He will tell you the same. I have worked for a large corp in middle management for over 20 years.

As far as jobs lost, most middle class Americans are not running after AgJobs (remember, jobs Americans won´t do). I don´t see the middle class losing jobs to any illegal immigrants domestically. Outsourcing IT jobs offshore would have more of an impact. At the same time however, we do not have a job shortage in our country for IT jobs.

Here´s what I don´t understand Tan. The people we´ve been blogging with are all intelligent people. Their jobs are not in jeopardy. I´m sure most are degreed and capable of getting any job they want. I am sure you are well off. You also know, particularly in Ag, we are facing severe shortages. So why do people say we are losing jobs to the illegal immigrants?

I do travel. I´ve travelled all across TX over the past couple of years. Prior to that, I moved 10 times with my company. (Midwest, Heartland, Northeast)

The only place there may be a true problem is CA. Over-crowding and unrealistic home prices are the real culprits.

Dee said...

Also, all the DFW folks, even the multi-cultural, are citizens.

mirrorism said...

At least tan and phac understand that the immigration issue is a product of our free trade and open labor policies. However, it's a shame that you two do not know the consequences of doing away with those policies; worse still, you believe the consequences will be favorable.

Your hubris in that prediction is amazing; it's also amazing how you two can claim victory in this debate.

One question; do you two believe in the 9-11 conspiracies too? You believe in this Bush backed--and Census driven--"takeover" and the people pushing that are the same 9-11 conspiracy wackos.

Your irrationality almost exceeds their's in your belief that a few wacko--for profit--"hispanic" organizations speak for 26 million people in the United States or that they speak for the 7 or so million Mexican illegal immigrants.

Misery loves company... I suppose.

Tanstaafl said...

You're right dee. I'm not worried about my job. I'm worried about my health, wealth, and safety. I'm worried about my life and the lives of my progeny.

mirrorism, all the arguments I've heard about how wonderful immigration has been for our economy have been extremely debatable. Duplicitous even. For instance, when they provide numbers they are for legal immigrants, the ones they can count, who tend to pay taxes and obey the law. Then they say "see, immigration is wonderful!" They do not address the illegal aliens, who tend to be poor, uneducated, unskilled, and do not pay taxes.

Read the news. You'll see stories every day about the costs of immigration. Just because they don't point out the link to immigrants, and just because economists don't count these externalities, doesn't mean those costs don't exist.

See the real estate bubble? Explain to me how great it was for our economy to have all that cheap illegal labor build a zillion houses we don't need.

Then you can also explain perhaps how economists calculate the social costs of immigration. The gangs and their violence. The failing schools. The overflowing hospitals. The crumbling infrastructure. I'll save you some time. They don't count it.

patriot said...

I can't believe that anyone would ask the question of "how are Americans losing jobs to illegal aliens" after all the statistics and personal testimony there is out there from so many Americans who have lost their jobs this way.

The construction industry is a good example. Employers are hiring illegals for half the price of an American laborer. Many Americans can't get a job because they don't speak Spanish. Is this due to Hispanic citizens who do speak English or is it due to illegal aliens from Mexico who don't? This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Please explain why that is now.

Dee said...

Tan, Surely you cannot blaming the bursting of the Housing bubble on the Immigration issues. Here are the top 10 reasons. Most of them are due to greed, fraud, interest only loans by Americans.
http://patrick.net/housing/crash.html

Tanstaafl said...

dee, surely you are not saying the housing bubble has nothing to do with immigration.

The media makes up all sorts of excuses not to mention immigration in anything but the best light, if they mention it at all. Avoiding the kind of name calling you greeted me with is the main reason nobody likes to even question immigration, much less can have a reasonable debate about it.

And you know it. That "hater" nonsense is nothing but BS. But it has worked very well so far.

Dee said...

Tan, you yourself admit your "charming ways" on your own blog. I have treated you very civilly. Besides, we are friends now.

The housing bubble bursting causes cannot be blamed on illegal immigration. I provided you the top 10.

mirrorism said...

For instance, when they provide numbers they are for legal immigrants, the ones they can count, who tend to pay taxes and obey the law. Then they say "see, immigration is wonderful!" They do not address the illegal aliens, who tend to be poor, uneducated, unskilled, and do not pay taxes.

And when others calculate the negative effects of illegal immigrants--at the level we are discussing here which is not the level that truly affects the US economy--they include the cost of educating and keeping their American kids healthy.

Everyone pays taxes...

But these, I believe, are unimportant issues... The positive benefits or negative detriments of illegal immigrants themselves are a non-issue, after all they are only 4% of the population; the real issue is that the US economy as a whole is dependent on them.

In blaming illegal immigrants--in your case, 40 million Americans as well--for all of our problems we find some sort of sick comfort and feed for our hubris, but we do not fix anything, we only allow the status-quo to go on undeterred.

See the real estate bubble? Explain to me how great it was for our economy to have all that cheap illegal labor build a zillion houses we don't need.

How, exactly, did illegal immigrants burst the real estate bubble?

And since when do we decide to buy things in this country with "need" in mind? No one does that!

The US economy depends on us buying crap that we don't need; that is why the Fed lowered those interest rates to regain consumer confidence and keep this machine running.

Have you bought your HDtv yet? How are you going to watch the NFL and the World Series without your big screen HDtv? And your Lazy Boy recliner? I hear they massage your tired body--from working hard to pay off the tv and chair, LOL--and keep your beverage ice cold nowadays.

Then you can also explain perhaps how economists calculate the social costs of immigration.

The gangs are American--they were already here before illegal immigration--even if some of them are comprised of illegal immigrants they are still an American problem.

There are failing schools all over the country regardless of who the students attending them are.

Or do you think Miss South Carolina went to a school full of illegal immigrants?

For that matter, do you think 1 out of every 5 Americans who can't find the United States on a map go to schools full of illegal immigrants?

At best, or at worst, because such a minuscule percentage of the 12 million are actually of school age, I would say that less than .5% of students in the US are truly negatively affected by illegal immigrants.

The rest are suffering through a broken education system that produces the 20% of Americans who don't even know where they are.

The only hospitals that are over flowing are the public hospitals; which is one of the reasons why universal health care is necessary.




But to comment on the subject of the original blog posting... There is no champion for immigration and in reality no champion against immigration; there can only be champions for or against the US economic model which depends on foreign imports including foreigners themselves--some illegal--for labor force and population growth, which leads to more production, more consumption, which then leads to economic growth.

Or something like that...

Liquidmicro said...

The housing bubble shouldn't be blamed solely on illegals, however they are part of the bursting. They have received home loans, interest only, and various other types, purchased the house, refinanced it, gotten money for it, then left to do it again under some other alias name. Some have left back to where they came from with a now opened bank account here, transferring the money home as needed.

So yes they are part of the blame and fault.

Tanstaafl said...

Claiming that I blame all the country's ills on illegal aliens is a good example of a strawman. It's bogus.

mirrorism, you seem more ready to cut aliens slack than you will for Americans.

Illegals working off the books don't pay taxes.

Illegals getting treated in our emergency rooms don't pay their bills.

Invader babies who don't speak English suck up our teacher's time and get food for free.

If you want to pretend that these things, or failing schools, or overflowing jails, are somehow equally attributable to legal residents as they are to invaders then it's clear you are driven by some liberal "everybody is equal because I say so" ideology.

Even if every single one of these problems were not skewed towards illegals we would reduce all of these problems by X% if we deported the X% who are illegal. Would that reduce our economy by X%? I think not, but so what if it did?

Dee said...

Well Liquid, I will concur they have a part of the blame, but are not among the top 10 reasons for it.

Tanstaafl said...

Let me try to make sense to you another way.

If immigration is so wonderful and is such a boon to our economy, then why don't we just let everyone in? In fact, let's pay to bring them in. We'll make a big profit on them in the long run! (Hmm, that sounds a bit like exploitation...I wonder if the liberals will mind.)

We'll bring in Chinese and Africans and Indians by the boatload! They'll work for even less than the Mexicans - and the Indians already speak English! I know you'll love this dee. You can tell them your stories about your family. Think of all the diversity!

They can live in your houses, ok? And go to school with your kids, who will get to learn Chinese and half a dozen African languages, ok? And you can pay for their healthcare, alright?

Sounds like such a great plan, what's stopping us?

Tanstaafl said...

dee, you found some link (with a Ron Paul picture on it!) and now you consider that the gospel on the reasons for the housing bubble? It isn't even a list of causes, it's a list of effects.

Cheap invader labor certainly was an essential factor in the housing bubble. If they had to build those houses with Americans they would have built less, slower.

Hannitized said...

Hello Dee,

I want to congratulate you on your educated, even tempered and well mannered responses to your readership. It can be quite daunting to respond to those who confuse feelings with facts and facts with fiction.

I have had similar experiences with the ANTIS. I understand, they are afraid and they feel threatened, and rightly so. However, I think our country deserves to know the facts and the truth. This is terribly difficult for the ANTIS to comprehend. It is why they name-call and attack the President and current Republican leadership.

You, I and others will start surfacing once the hyperbole and misinformation campaigns become too great in number. The only fear I have, is that some Americans don't want to see facts that counter their current position. They want to accept the information they receive from the propaganda sites from the extremes.

I would like to participate in your blog and help provide facts as well as maintain a cordial debate. I can only imagine the paranoid conspiracy theories and name calling that will emerge as a result.

patriot said...

I am sorry but I was trying not to laugh at hannitized's santimonious post, really I was.

I have seen more insults flung around by the pro illegals than I have ever seen from patriotic Americans by a longshot.

The only consideration should be the immigration laws of our country no matter what either side's potential hidden agenda is. The debate should go no further than that because everything else is irrelevant.

Anonymous said...

hannitized-could you be Dee in disguise? hmmmmmmm

Hannitized said...

Tan said: The media makes up all sorts of excuses not to mention immigration in anything but the best light, if they mention it at all.

It has become all to convenient to blame the media for every bit of information that doesn't align with ANTI hyperbole. While I admit the media sometimes misses things, it certainly doesn't provide justification to believe every anti-immigrant story the extreme anti-sites drum up in their imaginations.

What I would like to see Tan, is some facts and supporting evidence.

Hannitized said...

Pat said:I have seen more insults flung around by the pro illegals than I have ever seen from patriotic Americans by a longshot.

I am glad you found laughter Pat. It's always a good remedy for anger and frustration, something that you clearly feel. So laugh away if you must.

In regard to your point, let's focus on what WE say to each other. Let's not take out on each other, what others do to themselves. Let's rise above and engage as educated adults. What do you say?

The only consideration should be the immigration laws of our country no matter what either side's potential hidden agenda is.

I agree. However, let's not forget that laws have agendas both hidden and in plain site. What particular aspect of law would you like to focus on?

Dee said...

Hannitized, Welcome!! I am honored that you have joined my blog and will participate in our civil discussions. Please join us as often as you would like.

I hope you write a little about yourself in your "About Me" section. Hawaii and Surfing do sound exciting.

patriot said...

Anon, I think you are on to something including ANTI typed in caps.

Our country's laws don't have evil agendas, they have good agendas, including our immigration laws.

I have seen more pro illegals not debating respectfully and seeming very uneducated than I have from the other side. But all of this is still irrelevant anyway as it is all about our nation's immmigration laws and we as citizens are obligated to respect them and expect foreigners to also do so.

Tanstaafl said...

I have blog full of supporing evidence hannitized.

You might start here.

You've already judged what I'm saying as "hyperbole" so I'm guessing you're fully under the influence of our watchdog media's politically correct brainwashing.

Shake it off. You don't have to have "hubris" (see mirrorism's comments) to read between the lines of the many many stories in the media that document the ill effects of the immigration invasion. You just have to have a functioning brain.

Tanstaafl said...

dee, thanks for this forum.

I'm finding it extremely satisfying to encounter these lost souls who come at me assuming I'm misinformed or an idiot or a hater and to answer them rationally and they .... go away.

I know I'm not any of those things. On immigration I know what I'm talking about. It's not "hubris", it's information.

To expect these lost souls to say "gee, you're right" would be too much. I can only hope I've given them, and you, something to think about. That is my intent.

phactoid said...

Mirrorism said:

"At least tan and phac understand that the immigration issue is a product of our free trade and open labor policies. However, it's a shame that you two do not know the consequences of doing away with those policies; worse still, you believe the consequences will be favorable."

I've not posted my point of view regarding the consequences of "doing away" with illegal immigrant labor. Perhaps you were responding to a post by Tan? But since you attempt to spin my point of view which I never gave, I thought I would give my pov so that you can spin it or call me a hater or whatever.

We don't have to suppose what will happen if illegal alien labor disappeared, we know. Look at our own nation's history, we've been down this road before.

The chief argument by southern slave owners in favor of slavery prior to the civil war was that the US economy could not survive with out slavery. They argued that without the free labor that slavery provided, crops would rot and farms would fail bringing down the nation's economy.

The civil war was fought. The slaves were freed. The south lost its free labor and the country's economy did not fail. It did just fine.

History shows us that this is what would happen today too. We have a low wage illegal agricultural work force. If they disappeared, the farmers and ranchers would pay a legal wage to hire Americans. That's what happened after the civil war and that was a far worse situation. In that case the country depended on FREE slave labor. Even the fact that plantation owners had to pay ANYTHING at all to harvest their crops did not cause shortages, crops rotting. None of that occurred then in a far worse situation and, therefore, it would not occur now.

phactoid said...

Patriot said

"Our country's laws don't have evil agendas, they have good agendas, including our immigration laws...it is all about our nation's immmigration laws and we as citizens are obligated to respect them and expect foreigners to also do so."

The truth is, as you undoubtedly realize, that our expectation that foreigners respect our laws is not a reasonable one. Our executive branch at both the federal and state level are not enforcing immigration laws. How can we possibly have any expectation that foreigners will respect our laws when we do not enforce them?

For a long time I was dumbfounded at the failure of the executive branch. But now in light of the Amero, American Union scheme to merge the Americas, and the NAFTA super highway, the noneforcement makes sense.

It's frustrating and infuriating to say the least. You and I have the constitutional right to have our laws enforced. President Bush has violated his oath of office and violated his constitutional duty to faithfully execute the law. The only hope we have is to elect a President in 2008 that doesn't lick his chops over the prospect of emulating the European Union.

patriot said...

I still expect people to behave in a moral way even though our government officials don't. That is where personal responsbility comes into play.

Just because my neighbor leaves their door unlocked, that doesn't tempt me or give me the right to enter their house uninvited.

Bob said...

When my son was in high school he worked at McDonalds, a great way for youth to learn about work ethics. But by the time he graduated high school the jobs at McDonalds had been taken over by spanish speaking mexicans. Local American youth were pushed out of the after school work that had been available to American kids for generations.

Illegeal immigration hurts every wage earning American by allowing employers to hire cheap illegals instead of paying decent wages.

To those who say that it is "impossible" to send the brown skinned beggars packing for home, I say all we need is a reward offered "dead or alive" and there would be a stampeed for the border.

It's time to reclaim America for Americans.

Tanstaafl said...

One very real reason it is "impossible" is that any measures we take that truly do begin to force illegal aliens out will very likely trigger them to mass violence. Riots and looting sure, but there will also be widespread individual instances of assault and murder. If you can recall the LA riots you'll get some idea what it will be like anywhere there is a concentration of invaders.

They are the largest source of hate in our nation. They have come here against our laws and will fight to stay. This is the truth no invasion supporter wants to acknowledge. It completely undermines their goal to "bring them out of the shadows" and put them on a "path to citizenship". We didn't decide to share our country with them. They're demanding it. It's called extortion. Actually it's worse. It's invasion. Like home invasion but on a national scale.

This is why I call them invaders, and nobody challenges the word itself. They can only try to silence us by inverting reality and calling us haters.

Tanstaafl said...

Can you imagine calling the victims of home invasion haters?

That's how sick and distorted the pro-invasion argument is.

Dee said...

Bob, If you were absolutely positive the McDonalds employers were hiring illegal immigrants, did you report them? From what I understand, McDonalds, Walmart, and all major chains are required to hire US Citizens. They do drug tests and citizenship checks since last year.

Dee said...

Tan, I am glad you like it here!!

mirrorism said...

Claiming that I blame all the country's ills on illegal aliens is a good example of a strawman. It's bogus.

You believe this country will be so much better off without illegals:

"...we won't have to pay for their life support and Americans will get paid more."

You've said that much... Everything will be hunky dory without them, so in effect, you are blaming many of America's problem on illegals--4% of the population.

mirrorism, you seem more ready to cut aliens slack than you will for Americans.

When it comes to immigration I prefer not to talk about the immigrants themselves.

Illegals working off the books don't pay taxes.

So you believe that they are exempt from sales taxes and property taxes? When they buy gas, alcohol, tobacco they get it at a discount--minus the excise tax?

If that's the case maybe you should pretend that you're an illegal; you can say that you're an illegal from Canada.

Death and taxes applies to illegals working under the table as well. But it doesn't matter, most illegals work with fake social security numbers; they pay all the taxes everyone else pays without receiving tax returns or social security at retirement--which is why the social security administration created a separate account for these types of contributions.

Illegals getting treated in our emergency rooms don't pay their bills.

The #1 cause for bankruptcies in America is health care bills--another reason why we need universal health care--so, apparently nobody pays their health care bills.

In addition, when applying for loans, banks rarely take into account outstanding health care debts when making the to loan or not loan decision. Again, nobody pays their health care bills, nobody can afford their health care bills.

Invader babies who don't speak English suck up our teacher's time and get food for free.

American babies who don't learn and don't want to learn geography, algebra, history, science, etc. they also take up our teacher's time and get free food.

Is it also strawman to say that you are willing to blame all of America's education problems on illegals?

Again, because most illegals are past school age they don't go to school, so you're looking at around 1%, maybe even less, of the population causing all of America's education problems.

If you want to pretend that these things, or failing schools, or overflowing jails, are somehow equally attributable to legal residents as they are to invaders then it's clear you are driven by some liberal "everybody is equal because I say so" ideology.

It's simple logic; 4% of America's population cannot cause 100%--or whatever illogical percentage you want to attribute to them--of America's problems.

Would that reduce our economy by X%? I think not, but so what if it did?

So what if it did? Well, how many Americans are willing to lose the title of THE world's super power? How many Americans are willing to lose most of their spending power? LOL, how many Americans are willing to give up their cocaine habits?

Sounds like such a great plan, what's stopping us?

Wow.. That is THE strawman right there.




The civil war was fought. The slaves were freed. The south lost its free labor and the country's economy did not fail. It did just fine.

Actually, I think this example works against you; the south was supported by the north's economy--that is why you should separate their economies; the south lost it's free labor force, but not it's labor force; the southern states' economies were basically in ruins before the Civil War; they were near ruin during and after the Civil War as well; the south's economy remained in basic ruin until it began to pay it's workers--still low-wages, but much better than no-wages; sharecropping, some industrialization, textile plants, etc. began to sprout; the south needed to produce more to make up the labor costs, which caused some economic growth; their greatest economic growth came in the 1930s when the New Deal forced the south to pay their workers fair wages.

So, in this way, the south's economy shows us that not paying workers and even paying workers low-wages is not as conducive to a growing economy as one may think--e.g. broke people can't spend money therefore nobody wants to invest in broke peoples.

Uh... I guess none of that had to be written... It has nothing to do with current immigration... Because their labor force was not eliminated, they just started paying them... And your belief that you could replace all the immigrant workers with American workers is basically wrong... Forget willing, there just isn't enough unemployed Americans to replace them.

We have a low wage illegal agricultural work force. If they disappeared, the farmers and ranchers would pay a legal wage to hire Americans.

Which Americans? There are 12 million illegal immigrants and only 4.5% of working age Americans are unemployed... You expect Americans to go pick fruit, wash dishes, build houses, roads, etc. in the morning and then work at the office at night?

In that case the country depended on FREE slave labor. Even the fact that plantation owners had to pay ANYTHING at all to harvest their crops did not cause shortages, crops rotting. None of that occurred then in a far worse situation and, therefore, it would not occur now.

The country did NOT depend on free slave labor, the south did in a way, but it was working against their own interest of economic growth. The south was basically keeping a significant portion of their population from contributing anything save their labor; which in turn kept them from increasing their production and growing their economy.

The situation today is completely different; you deport all of the illegal immigrant working population--without a replacement population--and you will see a decrease in production, a stagnant, shrinking economy.

As usual, the show of good will--immigration reform--by the people truly ruling this country is not a show of good will at all, but an attempt to get into the pockets of another significant portion of our population--the more money they make the more they can take.

Dee said...

Tan, I think we need discussion, not name calling. Calling people invaders and saying they are going to start riots only instills fear. Remember history and our own accountability. I don´t think you are as extreme as Bob who calls for deportation of citizens like AG Gonzales. If we all support Comprehensive Immigration Reform, we can resolve these immigration issues.

patriot said...

Why not set a limit on population growth from immigration in tune with our availability of natural resources, etc. rather than increasing it to meet a huge economy driven by immigration? Some things are not worth sacrificing for a buck.

If the illegals leave, wouldn't there be plenty of immigrants waiting to come here legally to fill their shoes if needed?

I don't know what else you would call millions of illegal aliens in this country other than invaders. Sometime the truth hurts but let's be honest here. The term is quite correct.

Armed with the fact that we do have millions of illegal aliens in this country and the continued likelihood that our government will not secure our borders and enforce our immigration laws at the border and in the employment arena, I believe every American has every right to be angry and fearful of what our future will hold. They don't need anyone to scare them or tell them that, the facts speak for themselves.

phactoid said...

Patriot said

"I still expect people to behave in a moral way even though our government officials don't. That is where personal responsbility comes into play.

Just because my neighbor leaves their door unlocked, that doesn't tempt me or give me the right to enter their house uninvited."

I agree with you. But there are over 12 million illegal aliens that don't. They're here and they are here illegally.

You expect people to believe in a moral way as you understand morality in American culture. But we are not talking about Americans and American culture. The Mexican government is corrupt with no compassion for its poorest citizens. It's a culture of corruption. We may have doubts about out leaders in the US, they may even be corrupt, but so far it appears that the Mexican government is far worse. The 12+ million bring that culture here with them to the U.S. It would be unreasonable to think that they can somehow suddenly behave according to our cultural moral standards.

And in fact they freely choose not to. Before they came illegally, they had the same opportunity everyone else does in the world to apply to become a US citizen. They chose not to. While they're here illegally, they still have the same opportunity everyone else does the world over to apply to become a US citizen. They choose not to. Their decision to break the law is their choice, but it is not surprising given their cultural morality.

And don't count on their morality changing via the magic of Z visa. The large numbers of them makes assimilation into our culture highly unlikely. It's far more likely that we will be assimilating to their corrupt third world culture. It's all ready happening.

Press "1" to hear this message in English.

phactoid said...

Patriot said

"If the illegals leave, wouldn't there be plenty of immigrants waiting to come here legally to fill their shoes if needed?"

Yes there would. Thousands are waiting who have legally applied all over the world. They wait patiently for years while they respect our laws. They deserve an equal opportunity to legally immigrate.

Hannitized said...

PAT said: I have seen more pro illegals not debating respectfully and seeming very uneducated than I have from the other side.

We all have our own experiences that differ, I suppose. But what is important is how WE interact. Agreed?

...it is all about our nation's immmigration laws and we as citizens are obligated to respect them and expect foreigners to also do so.

Indeed. And, we must expect our citizens and business to respect them as well. And unless we are going to go after all law violators we should recognize that we are making an extra effort to punish many of those who only wish to contribute as hard working citizens.

Hannitized said...

Tan said: You've already judged what I'm saying as "hyperbole" so I'm guessing you're fully under the influence of our watchdog media's politically correct brainwashing.

Hello Tan, nice to meet you. I would encourage you to re-read what I have written, as I have not once identified anything YOU, in particular, have said as hyperbole. But I would very quick to do so if I were to see it.

I am not under any influence of the media, unless of course you are referring to FOX News? You see, I watch FOX because I am fascinated by what they do. Occasionally, I will switch to CNN, but somtimes they are just as "fascinating". But to be sure, I am under no influence other than my own.

As a side note, I think some peoples view of the mainstream media is a bit paranoid and I am actually preparing to do a documentary on the old vs. new media and compare and contrast to two. I agree with you to some degree, except I think the media is actually helping your cause, more than they are hurting it.

...to read between the lines of the many many stories in the media that document the ill effects of the immigration invasion.

I am aware of them and I am aware of the ill effects of our culture that effect first and second generation children of immigrants who enter this country. Of course I am speaking of the immigrants who actually commit less crime than native born citizens, according to statistics.

The question is, are you willing to look at statistics that counter the general media myths, or are have you already made up your mind, never to be changed again?

mirrorism said...

If the illegals leave, wouldn't there be plenty of immigrants waiting to come here legally to fill their shoes if needed?

I hear this all the time... And the answer is yes and no; yes, there are millions of people all over the world who want to emigrate to the US; no, because the belief that the people waiting in line--"the right way"--are waiting patiently just to pick our fruit or scrub our toilet bowls is wrong--the people who are that desperate come over here illegally.

They don't need anyone to scare them or tell them that, the facts speak for themselves.

Lately, the facts say that illegal immigrants are leaving, improved border security is cutting down the number of illegal crossing, and remittances are decreasing.




You expect people to believe in a moral way as you understand morality in American culture.

The hubris is strong in this one. LOL...

Morality in American culture? Hmm... Well, what's so moral about Britney Spears? Pat Tillman's coverup? Michael Vick? Obsession with guns? The Iraq war? LOL, homosexual congressmen who speak up against homosexuals for votes? 95% of the world's porn being made in America?

The Mexican government is corrupt with no compassion for its poorest citizens. It's a culture of corruption. We may have doubts about out leaders in the US, they may even be corrupt, but so far it appears that the Mexican government is far worse.

Like I said, the hubris is strong within you...

The only reason why the corruption isn't as blatant in the US is because there is more than enough money in the US to keep its people content and out of the corrupt affairs of its rulers.

The 12+ million bring that culture here with them to the U.S.

Not all of the 12 million illegal immigrants are from Mexico... Think about it... Mexico's population is 109 million; 11% of the population of Mexico is not in the US.
Their decision to break the law is their choice, but it is not surprising given their cultural morality.

Who is the more immoral person; the one who does the work or the one who pays and profits from the work?

Press "1" to hear this message in English.

Oh my... Your hubris even extends into language... At least you're not pressing "2".

Yes there would. Thousands are waiting who have legally applied all over the world. They wait patiently for years while they respect our laws. They deserve an equal opportunity to legally immigrate.

Uh huh... There are millions patiently waiting to pick our fruit and scrub our toilet bowls. Millions just waiting to move into those great neighborhoods and send their kids to all of those great schools... Uh huh...

Hannitized said...

I can only hope I've given them, and you, something to think about. That is my intent.

Tan, I hope you arent talking about me. You see, I live in Hawaii and there is a large time difference between the mainland and us. Please allow me some time to respond.

And in regards to your fact and information. I am glad to review them and learn from them if I can. And in return, hopefully you can also learn from our facts and information.

Here is something I would like to share.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=403

Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men

The past few decades have seen the confluence of two eras in the United States: an era of mass immigration and an era of mass imprisonment. A great deal has been said and written about each, reinforcing age-old popular stereotypes about immigration and crime (a Google search for "immigration +crime" immediately returns 57.2 million hits). But rarely are carefully researched connections made between the two, based on rigorous evidence.

snip..

In the absence of rigorous empirical research, myths and stereotypes about immigrants and crime often provide the underpinnings for public policies and practices, are amplified and diffused by the media, and shape public opinion and political behavior. Periods of increased immigration have historically been accompanied by nativist alarms and pervasive pejorative stereotypes of newcomers, particularly during economic downturns or national crises (such as the "war on terror" of the post-9/11 period), and when the immigrants have arrived en masse and differed substantially from the natives in such cultural markers as religion, language, phenotype, and region of origin.

snip..

These notions, in turn, were fanned by media accounts. A content analysis of newspapers in southern Italy found that 78 percent of the articles regarding immigration were crime related, while another study found that 57 percent of television reports on immigrants dealt with crime.

snip..

Inasmuch as conventional theories of crime and incarceration predict higher rates for young adult males from ethnic minority groups with lower educational attainment — characteristics which describe a much greater proportion of the foreign-born population than of the native born — it follows that immigrants would be expected to have higher incarceration rates than natives. And immigrant Mexican men — who comprise fully a third of all immigrant men between 18 and 39, and who have the lowest levels of education — would be expected to have the highest rates.

snip...

Surprisingly, at least from the vantage of conventional wisdom, the data show the above hypotheses to be unfounded. In fact, the incarceration rate of the US born (3.51 percent) was four times the rate of the foreign born (0.86 percent). The foreign-born rate was half the 1.71 percent rate for non-Hispanic white natives, and 13 times less than the 11.6 percent incarceration rate for native black men (see Table 1).

Anonymous said...

I see mirror--you want to keep the illegals from Mexico to keep scrubbing our toilets, etc. If they become citizens, they won't want to do those kind of jobs--right? They will become one of us if they become citizens. So really why do we need them if they are just like us? I say, let's learn to clean our own toilets and send the illegals back to where they came from. Agree?

Hannitized said...

does anyone know the HTML command for presenting long URLs?

Sorry about that.

Anonymous said...

hannitized---you could be dee's twin.---No lie! Or is that you dee?
You need someone to agree with you,
don't you? Nice ploy-not original but nice.

Hannitized said...

any said:you want to keep the illegals from Mexico to keep scrubbing our toilets, etc. If they become citizens, they won't want to do those kind of jobs--right? They will become one of us if they become citizens.

Um, my ex-girlfriends mom immigrated from Mexico. She works at a retirement home for the elderly, cleaning toilets. She cleaned them in 1995 and shes cleaning them now. Her husband is a Caucasian Christian man who works in sales for a chemical company (laundry detergent). Her beautiful daughter, born in the US, also worked as a maid. I encouraged her to better herself and she eventually became an executive admin and after a bit of coaching she landed a gig as a operation manager for a start up. Now shes a singer in Las Vegas, as she always was and pursued her dream, the American way. Her mom still cleans toilets.

All of this is not to say that any generalization can be accurate. What we have to look at are immigrants who work fields. Those people are desperate and extremely unlikely to advance themselves past that line of work. The people you are speaking of, that do construction and such, already have an ability to speak English before entering the country. Its those who are lesser advantaged that our country really can benefit from, by working our fields in turn for providing work visas or guest worker visas.

mirrorism said...

Anonymous, I wish we were willing to scrub our own toilet bowls, I wish we lived within the means of necessity, I wish the Census didn't exist, I wish the words mine and yours weren't so important, etc. etc., but I digress; what we are is a high maintenance society--like it or not.




Hannitized, I haven't been able to figure it out either, what I do is enclose them with this tag:

< a > < /a >

It doesn't show the complete address, and you can't click on it, but you can highlight it and then copy and paste the complete address.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=403

Hannitized said...

Any,

I take that as a compliment, because I admire Dee's style and I am burrowing it. Does it bother you that we are both polite, cordial and willing to support our positions with facts?

Let me try speaking another way if it makes you feel better.

Dude,

I live in Hawaii but was born and raised in California. 8th Generation Californian and that only implies since it became part of the United States. My family came down with the Spanish Conquistadors into California and Mexico. I am Italian, Spanish, Native American, Mexican, French, German.

I'll bet that Dee never in her life surfed Ocean Beach, Pismo, Guadalupe, Rincon, El Captian, Jalama, Tarantulas, Santa Cruz (The Lane, Pleasure Point) or any of the crazy spots here in Oahu. I will bet Dee is not a person who is a waterman. I dive and collect aquarium fish for a hobby, wanna talk fish? I've never been married and am quite a ladies man, if you know what I mean?

What else can I say brother?

Hannitized said...

test

Hannitized said...

Here is the HTML code Mirror. Thanks for your help.

your text here

phactoid said...

First off, I want to say that I realize that there are illegal aliens that are not Mexican. But since the vast majority of them are, I often refer to them as Mexican.

Mirrorism said

"And when others calculate the negative effects of illegal immigrants--at the level we are discussing here which is not the level that truly affects the US economy--they include the cost of educating and keeping their American kids healthy.

Everyone pays taxes..."

Illegals don't pay taxes.

I'll spell it out for you. They don't pay income tax, they don't pay property tax. They don't pay into social security, they don't pay into WIC, they don't pay into welfare, they don't pay into government health care for the poor. Perhaps you would understand the word "Nada."

Regarding "they include the cost of educating and keeping their American kids healthy," we should be counting that cost. America is our country. American children are our children. They are American citizens.

Mexican children are the responsibility of their parents and the Mexican government. The Mexican government has absolutely no compassion for its families. Their poor live in card board boxes with dirt floors. They flee here with virtually no schooling at all.

That's not the American government's responsibility, that's the Mexican government's responsibility.

Regarding "their American kids," this seems to me like you are saying that American children are "theirs" not "ours." At first blush this appears anti-American, but I have no problem adopting your terse and clear categorization.

American children are OURS. Mexican children are "THEIRS." We American citizens pay taxes so that OUR children can receive an American education and benefits they're entitled to.

Illegals choose not to apply to be US citizens. They are not US citizens, they are Mexican citizens. They pay Mexican taxes. Therefore THEIR children are entitled to the education and benefits provided by the Mexican government.

American citizens are waking up to the self-loathing of Liberal Americans who stereotype Americans as inferior, spouting nonsense about how Mexicans do jobs that Americans won't or can't. While at the same time stereotyping Mexicans as superior "hard working" and "deserving". Isn't the self-loathing liberal progressive world bright and sunny? We're inferior, to not accept that makes you a racist too, and to not accept that makes you an inferior racist hater.

There's no reason to be self loathing, you do not have to put yourself down and degrade your country to prove anything to anyone. This country is the greatest country in the world. Our society is something to be proud of and it's worth protecting from third world invaders.

Hannitized said...

Oh...hahaha. I can't really put it in without it creating a command.

Here, visit this site.

your text here

Tanstaafl said...

I reject the specious arguments that because some Americans want the invaders here and profit from them in whatever way, that this makes ALL Americans somehow responsible for them and forces us to accept the them.

Many of us didn't ask for them to come, don't hire them, don't want them here, and will write/pay/work/struggle to get them to go home.

If you're feeling guilty about your actions and petty profits, then take responsibility. Stop trying to blame the invasion on the rest of us.

Tanstaafl said...

I very much appreciate mirrorism's admission. It demonstrates at least one kind of delusional, idealistic motivation for those who argue in favor of the invasion.

Do away with the Census so "we" can all avoid scrubbing our own toilets.

Wonderful.

phactoid said...

Mirrorism said

"Actually, I think this example works against you; the south was supported by the north's economy--that is why you should separate their economies..."

Uhhh...I think you rewrote history. The south succeeded from the union. That's what triggered the civil war.

The economies of the north and south were intertwined. However, it was the SOUTH that succeeded from the union. Their economy was strong enough to stand very much on its own without help from the north.

The north needed the south. The south being the food and raw material source for the country, realized they could stand alone with their own economy. So they succeeded. The army of the industrial north with patriot President Abraham Lincoln fought to force the south back into the union.

And by the way, when the country was united after the civil war, there was no longer slavery, but there weren't illegal aliens in the fields "doing the jobs Americans won't do." Americans did those jobs. They'll do them again today too once the illegal invaders are gone. As Patriot mentioned, there are plenty of people who want to legally immigrate that would do those jobs as American citizens. Maybe even, gasp, Mexicans would fairly and like anyone from any other country become US citizens and choose to do those jobs. There are lots of possibilities.

Hannitized said...

PHAC said:Illegals don't pay taxes.... Perhaps you would understand the word "Nada."

Actually, you are incorrect PHAC. Illegals pay sales tax and property tax at the very least. Those who have illegal SOC SEC numbers also pay income tax both Federal and State.

illegalspaytaxes

phactoid said...

Hanitized said

"I take that as a compliment, because I admire Dee's style and I am burrowing it"

I think you mean borrowing. "Burrowing" is digging a hole. Which you are doing. Perhaps you'll ride your way out bare-back burro style?

patriot said...

phac, I think you misunderstood me. What I meant by expecting morality from others, I was including Americans and illegal aliens both. Just because our government has been inept with our immigration laws, doesn't mean that we Americans should be ignoring or advocating this illegal invasion into our country nor does it give the illegals a right to ignore our immigraton laws. Obviously the illegals are not operating under an acceptable moral code from their first act of entering our country illegally. Like you I have no reason to think that will change just because they are given legalization. Call it cultural or whatever.

han, I already said that the employers and our government are just as guilty as the illegals themselves by allowing this to happen and should all be punished. So what is this extra effort to punish those who wish to contribute as citizens that you speak of? They are illegal aliens! There is no extra effort to punish just them and if they want to contribute and become citizens there is a legal way to do that. Although there is crime among the illegal alien community just as there is among other communities, the bottom line is that there would be less crime without them here. I don't wish to get into a battle about who is committing the most crimes, legal or illegal as it is irrelevant to the main fact they are here by virtue of violating our immigration laws. I don't care if they go to church everyday and never commit any other crimes, they need to go just for the simple reason they are here illegally.

mirror, if you don't think there are other poor and uneducated people from other countries that wouldn't jump at the chance to get a job cleaning toilets in America, then you are in serious denial. Both the employers and the illegas are immoral since you asked. That's like asking who is guiltier the thief or his accomplice?

The reason we have to press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish is because of the huge illegal alien population from Mexico and other Spanish speaking countries. Legal Spanish speakers in this country are usually bi-lingual. So there is no need in their case. We didn't have to do this before the illegal invasion.

Yes, we have plenty of immorality to go around in this country but it is not representative of the main population of America. We don't need to import more from other countries, especially through illegality. By the way, most Americans do clean their own toilets, etc. It is only the upper middle class or rich who may or do not.

To the person who mentioned that their kid can't get a job at McDonalds anymore because of the number of Spanish speakers being hired legal/illegal?, my nephew had a similar experience. But when he did land a job at a fast food joint, most of the workers would only speak Spanish among themselves, some could barely speak any English at all and therefore alienating any English speaking workers there.

Hannitized said...

Perhaps you'll ride your way out bare-back burro style?

Phac, are you upset because I can hold my own and therefore you choose to pic on my spelling errors to ridicule me?

Why would you do that?

mirrorism said...

Illegals don't pay taxes.

Everyone who lives with a roof over their heads pays property taxes; it doesn't matter if you don't own the property yourself because the owners do pay property taxes.

The rest of the taxes you mention; if you only take into account those who work under the table, then no, they don't pay those taxes, however, like I said, most work with forged documents, meaning they do pay all of those taxes.

America is our country. American children are our children. They are American citizens.

Exactly. And those born within America's borders are American.

Mexican children are the responsibility of their parents and the Mexican government.

Of course, but we're talking about American born children.

American children are OURS. Mexican children are "THEIRS."

Again, I agree, but so long as they are born in the US they are Americans.

Therefore THEIR children are entitled to the education and benefits provided by the Mexican government.

Not according to the US or Mexican governments.

As far as your rant against self-loathing liberals, where have I done that? I have simply stated facts regarding the jobs that Mexicans take, which are the jobs that Americans cannot take because they are busy working other jobs, not because they couldn't take them if they had to.

Uhhh...I think you rewrote history. The south succeeded from the union. That's what triggered the civil war.

I meant you had to separate the two economies before and after the Civil War--ie. succession--they were two different countries until the New Deal.

Their economy was strong enough to stand very much on its own without help from the north.

Relative to who? Certainly not the the US at the time.

And by the way, when the country was united after the civil war, there was no longer slavery, but there weren't illegal aliens in the fields "doing the jobs Americans won't do."

Actually, IIRC, there was immigration back then too. Relative to America's population at the time, it was probably greater than it is today.

As far as the south is concerned, again, IIRC, the railroads help raise the south out of its economic doldrums, and again, IIRC, Chinese immigrants were used to build those railroads.

Even if they weren't, who was doing most of the work before slavery was abolished? Imported slaves! Who were not as American as their descendants are today--e.g. 3/5s of a person.

As Patriot mentioned, there are plenty of people who want to legally immigrate that would do those jobs as American citizens. Maybe even, gasp, Mexicans would fairly and like anyone from any other country become US citizens and choose to do those jobs. There are lots of possibilities.

So we agree on the need of immigration, we agree that America is not a self-sustaining nation, we even agree that even some of the Mexican illegal immigrants here are necessary; I had a feeling you weren't as irrational as you come across at first glance.




Now tran... Your whole rant is just your sorry attempt to avoid debate by ranting and raving about substanceless hyperboles.

For example:

If you're feeling guilty about your actions and petty profits, then take responsibility. Stop trying to blame the invasion on the rest of us.

First, I feel no guilt because, at the end of the day, they are improving their lives--and especially those of their children--by coming over here. Second, even if you don't condone nor understand illegal immigration beyond skin deep ideas you do indirectly profit from it, because of the immigrants worth to the US economy.

Another example:

Do away with the Census so "we" can all avoid scrubbing our own toilets.

The former had nothing to do with the latter... Sheesh.

If you're having insecurity issues talk to a therapist, I doubt your rantings and ravings on your blog and in this comment section is helping you in anyway. Or better yet, if you do not believe that you need any help, start your own militia, and then start another blog:

From Guantanamo Bay




And why does everyone think that all illegal immigrants do is clean toilets? That was just an example--hyperbole, I admit, but so what? It is just a result of discussing the illegal immigrants instead of illegal immigration.

Tanstaafl said...

hannitized,

The illegals pay less taxes per capita both because they take primarily the least skilled lowest paying jobs and because of their tendency to be paid off the books.

The fact that they commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime is here and here. Go click some of those hits and make sure your eyes are open when you do.

You seem like a bright boy. If you continue to play stupid people might begin to think you are.

Tanstaafl said...

mirrorism, I don't think anything I can say to you will help. Sorry.

phactoid said...

Hanatized said

"Phac, are you upset because I can hold my own and therefore you choose to pic on my spelling errors to ridicule me?"

You don't have to "guess" why I did it. Why don't you just ask me?

I was fooling around. I apologize if my ridicule hurt your feelings. See, the liberal progressives are right, I'm a hater.

mirrorism said...

You're absolutely right tan, but don't feel sorry about that for I don't think I can help you either.

phactoid said...

Mirrorism says

"I meant you had to separate the two economies before and after the Civil War--ie. succession--they were two different countries until the New Deal."

No. The united states was one country at the conclusion of the civil war which was way before the New Deal.

Did I miss something? Everyone help me out here. Did our country divide into two different countries after the civil war and then turn back into one country prior to the New Deal?

Hannitized said...

Phac said:I was fooling around. I apologize if my ridicule hurt your feelings.

Ok, cool. No problems, i can take a good ribbing as long as I know it comes from a good place. Feel free to throw in a ;^) next time. It tends to help people put things in proper context. :^)

phactoid said...

Mirrorism says

"As far as the south is concerned, again, IIRC, the railroads help raise the south out of its economic doldrums, and again, IIRC, Chinese immigrants were used to build those railroads."

You make my point. These persons entered the country legally. They became American citizens. The vast majority of illegals have not applied for US citizenship.

Tanstaafl said...

han,

I do not consider migrationinformation.org to be an objective source for immigration information. Besides the euphemism "migration" the statistics you cited are for immigrants, not illegal immigrants.

Since the immigration status of most criminals isn't even investigated anyone who claims to be providing statistics on illegal alien crime is either a liar or a fool.

You can estimate it, or you can look for yourself. No not every Hispanic name or face on those top ten pages is illegal. But I think we can be sure a large number are. Would you agree that deporting them, perhaps even before they commit crimes here, would be good for America?

phactoid said...

Hannitized said

"Ok, cool. No problems, i can take a good ribbing as long as I know it comes from a good place. Feel free to throw in a ;^) next time. It tends to help people put things in proper context. :^)"

Wait what are you doing? I'm a hater.

mirrorism said...

You know what I meant... Before the New Deal the southern states were poor, uneducated, largely unindustrialized, outdated, etc. etc. and they would have remained that way for a while if not for intervention from without.

mirrorism said...

You make my point. These persons entered the country legally. They became American citizens. The vast majority of illegals have not applied for US citizenship.

Yeah sure, and they were treated just like all other legal citizens as well, huh? Talk about revisionist history.

Tanstaafl said...

I suppose I should also point out that there are no invader baby crime statistics. They, and the crimes they commit, are undeniably a consequence of the invasion.

Only 1/10th of the invasion iceberg is visible.

Hannitized said...

TAN said: The fact that they commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime is here and here.

You did not make an adequate counter argument. Your links do not show proportionate/disproportionate figures, nor do they even indicate who is legal vs. illegal vs. native born.

I don't want to be rude, but your links don't begin to make an educated argument. I couldn't even tell what links from the Google search you specifically wanted me to focus on. I could also point you to links such as NBCs "To Catch a Predator" series. But that would only indicate what that particular show revealed, not a nations statistical figures.

I don't even know where to start due to the fact that there were so many holes in your logic. If you compare and contrast to the link I provided, you can see who has their facts and statistical data in order. And that would be me. Sorry Charlie.

You seem like a bright boy. If you continue to play stupid people might begin to think you are.

Oh I know I am smart. I wouldnt be tasked with helping the American Military, Federal Government or DOD like I do if I wasnt. What I would like to do is compare my statistical, and rigorous empirical research and data to yours. The information you provided is far from statistical, shows no evidence of research and lacks anything that can make a counter argument.

MYSTATISTICALDATA

Tanstaafl said...

That's it for me. Hopefully the comments I've made above have already or will some day help others better understand why this invasion is wrong and why ANTIs win any rational argument about it.

You're all invited to join and continue the conversation at my blog.

Except for you mirrorism. If you show up and start posting your mindless drivel I 'll most likely just delete it. Nothing personal. You just seem completely irrational. Well, I suppose that is personal. Sorry.

Tanstaafl said...

Sorry for the snide bright boy comment han.

mirrorism said...

LOL... With your blog insulted you strike back and protect it in saying that I'm not good enough to take part in any of its discussions.

LOL... How about this? Just because the word reason is found in treason doesn't mean that there is any reason to be found in your blog.

Oh that stunk... Sorry. Your turn.

patriot said...

mirror, you really are a piece of work you know. Are you really a U.S. citizen?

As far as illegals paying income taxes with fraudulent SS numbers, you are aware some of these are stolen from Americans, don't you? You do realize how this would impact that citizen when he/she files their income tax return, don't you? How about their credit history? Is that alright with you just as long as the illegal is making a better life for themself while destroying an American citizen's life?

By misinterpretation of the 14th amendment, yes these illegals give birth to U.S. citizens. That needs to change. No child of an illegal alien should be granted birth citizenship in this country. Do you agree that the 14th should be changed to reflect that and if no, why not? Do you think we should be educating the non-citizen children of illegal aliens rather than their own country doing it?

You say there are jobs that Americans won't do. I can somewhat agree with that but if we need foreign labor for that, why does it have to be illegal rather legal labor? As I said, there are poor citizens of countries all over the world that would be glad to come here and do manual labor jobs and I only used the toilet bowl cleaning jobs just as an example as you did too.

I noticed that you mentioned that we had immigration back in the slavery days too Sorry but we are talking about illegal immigration today, not immigration. We have never needed Mexican "illegal" aliens or any other kind of illegal alien labor. We have work visas for legal foreign labor "if" so needed but we need to start being a self-sustaining nation to control our population growth. We had immigration in numbers perhaps higher back in the slavery days than we do today when comparing the percentage of citizen population back then but we were a much less populated country back then and still building this great country of ours. We have 300 million people in our country today. We are well beyond our carrying capacity and this country is already built.

Hannitized said...

Ah, ok cool. I know how it can be, I made those types of comments A LOT in the past. They sort of pop out when you get heated up.

No worries and apology accepted Tan. Thanks.

mirrorism said...

LOL.. Born and raised a Texan.

Just because I point out some of America's ills and poke fun at our hubris does not mean that I hate America.

I am guilty of it too, I'm sure that some people would believe think I'm an arrogant American as well.

For example... Maybe I believe that they need America... Maybe I believe that they are plugged into America. That's rather arrogant of me isn't it?

I just think that we are also plugged into them as well... I guess that's un-American of me...

Identity theft is a real problem, but what the IRS and SSA do with people whose SS numbers don't match their names is set them aside; that's not exactly identity theft.

Does the 14th amendment need to be changed? It needs to be at least clarified; there shouldn't be so much debate in how any amendment is interpreted.

I would rather have young illegal immigrants in schools than truant--so long as we're not deporting anyone.

I never said that there are jobs Americans WON'T do, I said there are jobs Americans CAN'T do because they have their own jobs.

Why use illegal rather than legal? Well; for one, it's cheaper; two, they pay their own way into the US; three, it's less paper work.

I've been in American Embassies abroad--Mexico and Uruguay--, if you look like you're willing to scrub toilets for a living they're going to throw away your application.

Legally, America wants skilled, educated workers; illegally, we take everyone.

If we didn't need Mexican illegal immigrants, why are they finding work here?

I'm still debating our potential population problems within the US... Do we just need our S P A C E ? Or is it a real problem?

Dee said...

Hannitized, I am very impressed by you and all of your factual data!!

Dee said...

Hannitized,

I am very impressed and you are right I never: surfed Ocean Beach, Pismo, Guadalupe, Rincon, El Captian, Jalama, Tarantulas, Santa Cruz (The Lane, Pleasure Point) or any of the crazy spots here in Oahu.

Wow!! You are magnificent, and a single,Lady´s Man too?! Wow! I bet Anon, Patriot, and phac will now be your friend!!

Hannitized said...

I do not consider migrationinformation.org to be an objective source for immigration information.

Why not? Do you believe they are being dishonest?

Besides the euphemism "migration"

Whats wrong with that? Legal immigrants migrate, illegal immigrants migrate. Migration is migration any way you look at it.

...the statistics you cited are for immigrants, not illegal immigrants.

You know what, perhaps you are right. I have emailed MigrationInformation to see if this is true or not. Let's wait and see.

Since the immigration status of most criminals isn't even investigated anyone who claims to be providing statistics on illegal alien crime is either a liar or a fool.

Then you might wan to tell that to the people who created the "INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants 2006 (First Quarter). They seemed to believe they have good information.

Do you think the FBI and INS are fools?

You can estimate it, or you can look for yourself. No not every Hispanic name or face on those top ten pages is illegal.

How would I estimate that?

.. But I think we can be sure a large number are.

How can you be SURE? I would say maybe, and I think your suggestion along with the information I provided shows that the immigration reform bill would have been a good idea because it would have isolated the violent criminals, helped us put them away and enable us to deport them.

Would you agree that deporting them, perhaps even before they commit crimes here, would be good for America?

I think deporting illegal immigrants from Mexico who are violent criminals is good for America, and it's something I would like to see done. That's why I supported the Immigration Reform Bill. Did you support the bill?

If your question is do I think a mass deportation is good for America, I would say no.

patriot said...

mirror, many times these illegals steal both the American's name and SS number. It's called identity theft and can be devastating. But who cares right, just as long as the illgal is making a better life for THEMSELF.

Nice dodge of the 14th amendment question. I asked for your personal views about clarifying it so that children of illegal aliens don't gain birth citizenship. If we didn't provide education for illegal alien children, many illegal alien parents would leave or wouldn't come here in the first place. Their truancy is not my concern. If these kids are roaming the streets and not attending school we can check the immigration status of their parents and deport the whole family.

Glad to see a pro-illegal like yourself admit that cheating employers are hiring illegals because they are cheaper rather than the hyperbole of they can't find Americans to do the job or that they are better workers than Americans. I will put that one in my diary. Thanks!

You answered your own question in your own post about why illegals are finding jobs here and it isn't because we need them but as you said because they work cheap. Thanks again!

dee, so you are impressed with yourself, oops I mean han? I am not interested in any phoney, sock puppet un-American male that you invented. I am not gay anyway. I have a wife and she is as patriotic as they come.

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