Author Orson Scott Card wrote a brilliant article about what would happen if the ANTIs get their wish re: Mass Deportation
Ethnic Cleansing or "Amnesty"
by Orson Scott Card
August 30, 2007So the election grows closer, and it's time to satisfy all those people who have been demanding that we put a stop to illegal immigration. The failure of the so-called "amnesty bill" leaves the government no choice other than expulsion of anyone without papers.The National Guard is activated and the city and state police forces are nationalized. Sweeps of Hispanic neighborhoods round up all the Spanish-speaking people with brown skin and sort them out according to who has the right documentation.Six million of them are found to be illegal immigrants.They are loaded into buses, trucks, cattle cars and transported to the Mexican border.
...
Our culture has always tolerated thousands and millions of people who spoke other languages and clung together in memory of the old country. And then, a few generations later, we were all Americans together. Your fear of these immigrants merely shows your complete ignorance of American history."Hyphenate us all you want," the arrogant liberal continues, "go to whatever ethnic pride parades you want, but we're all Americans. We changed each other – the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Black slaves, the Russian Jews, the Chinese, the Japanese, they all came here and changed the way we talk and think and dress and sing and dance and read and write and it was always still America. Until now.""What do you mean, until now?""Because it's time to take down the Statue of Liberty, sir. We no longer accept the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. We no longer lift a lamp beside the golden door. The door is steel, and we've shut it tight. This isn't America anymore."
"That's treasonous!"
"No, sir, you are the traitor. You're the one who declared that America was no longer a nation built around an idea, which accepted all who embraced that idea. Now it's just like any other nation on Earth. It stands for nothing except for holding on to what we've got and making sure there's no room for the people most desperate to come and join us."
"They didn't want to live under our laws!"
"Yes they did. All we had to do was change a law that made far less sense than the traffic laws Americans break or bend all the time! If you make breathing a crime, then yes, all the breathers are criminals, but the people who made the laws are the stupid ones."
"How dare you! We're the ones who wanted to keep America American!"
"America is a nation that thrived because of a constant infusion of eager new citizens. You have closed the door against the best and bravest of them. You have cut off the lifeblood."
"At least we're still speaking English!"
"That's right," says the fuzzy-headed liberal. "It takes a lot of brains and determination to learn to speak two languages fluently. We kicked out six million people who were willing to try to do that. And what we have left is ... you."
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115 comments:
You call this a brilliant article?
First why did he say that ICE would just go into Hispanic neighborhoods to catch illegals and why did he mention skin color? I will tell you why, he is pulling the race card. Doesn't suprise me that you would think he is brilliant.
Nothing brilliant or honest about him when he calls illegal aliens, immigrants. How convenient for him to mention other languages that were spoken with the first immigrants but leaves out the part that in a short time they forgot their native languages altogether and just spoke Engish in public. Not true of Hispanics.
No immigrant group of long ago came and changed America's traditional culture and language. The changed and adapted to us, not the other way around. I see your briliant writer is also a liar.
The writer also suggests we commit national suicide by taking the poem on the Statue of Liberty literally till the end of time and regardless of how much our population grows. What an idiot! The lies don't stop their either. He demonizes the U.S. as if we don't take in any more immigrants at all.
What is the purpose of being a bi-lingual nation? There is no purpose to it. Learning another language as an individual is fine if one wants to but their is no need to be a bi-lingaul nation. Why doesn't he jump all over Mexico for being a mono-lingual Spanish speaking country?
Yes, this writer is brilliant alright. A brilliant liar!
This is one of those articles that just stir up trouble in this debate... It doesn't even matter if it's right or wrong...
Anyway...
Patriot, the first immigrants who spoke foreign languages didn't learn English at a mass level either, because very few people are capable of learning a second language as adults.
However, their children did learn English, eventually, just like the children of current immigrants today.
There were also enclaves back then of Germans, Irish, Jewish, Italians, Croatians, Polish, etc. Which is why there were Little Italy's and Little China's from.
In fact, Rudy Tomjanovich--famous NBA coach--grew up in a Croatian neighborhood in Michigan, in the 50s, obviously not at the birth of this country.
In short, assimilation does happen, it just takes time--usually a generation or two. The reason you don't think it happens is because new immigrants show up and they have to start from the beginning. You focus on them and ignore that those that came before them are assimilating.
Also, I find it funny that there is a sort of revisionist opinion of those first immigrants in that today we look at them in a positive light, but back then Americans felt threatened by them and, basically, hated them.
Irish Cartoon 1
Irish Cartoon 2
Irish Political Cartoons
Not going to say anything more in this comment section, but this... If there was no immigration, foreign languages would not be spoken in the US... Which is proof of assimilation.
Adiós.
The difference as I pointed out in another topic is that today these "immigrants" are illegal aliens and they are here by the millions from just one ethnic group. You seem to skirt right over that one. The first immigrants may have colonized somewhat at first but only in a particular area. These illegal aliens of today are all over our entire country and colonizing entire Americans cities. They are retaining their native language that way rather than adopting English as their primary langauge of usage.
Maybe some Americans when this country was relatively new disliked newcomers but they proved that they would and did assimialte to us and they came legally, that is the real clincher.
I think due to Reagan´s so called Amnesty, a large group of legal and illegal immigrants migrated to the US from 1986 forward.
As history has taught us, it takes a generation for a new immigrant group to assimilate.
For the neweste immigrants, it will just take a little more time.
The article is actually a fable. IF we do this, THEN this is what happens. We have to be very, very careful not to trample on the rights or demonize LEGAL Citizens who are Hispanic. I think that is the morale.
In his Cost to Americans section he states: Prices for migrant-picked foods skyrocket, even as surplus crops rot in the fields, unharvested.
I think the key word here is the surplus of food, and the government then subsidizing the farmer. Again the farmer had the option to apply for the H-2A visa, the Farmer CHOSE not to, probably because it costs him to pay for housing, medical, transportation of the worker, why would he do that we he can have cheap exploitable labor through the use of 'Illegal Immigrants'.
This whole op-ed piece is crap, nothing but the extremist view from the bleeding-heart crowd.
Well Liquid,
Here is why the farm owners don´t like the H2A:
Feinstein introduce a bill creating a 'blue card'
The bill would also revamp the H-2A guest worker program to make it easier and less expensive for growers to use and to protect them from lawsuits. The current program is a bureaucratic thicket. With more than 300 pages of regulations, it requires farmers to go through 60 different steps to get workers from abroad.
"Only 2% of American agriculture uses the program because it is so difficult to use," said Sharon Hughes, executive vice president of the National Council of Agricultural Employers, which has been lobbying for changes in the program for the last decade. "That's why we've gotten in the untenable situation of being dependent on people without documents."
Liquid, you and yours should support Feinstein´s bill!
Actually the farmers use middle men to obtain the H-2A visa for them, they pay the middle man and the middle man pays the worker, I already showed this all to you on MATT. Thus eliminating any requirements for the farmer, and the middle man is going to offer housing, in fact the middle man takes part of the workers salary.
Yes indeed poor, poor, farmers, skirt the system.
"About a million undocumented laborers work California's 76,500 farms, making up about 90% of the state's agricultural payroll. Tougher enforcement along the Mexican border and in the U.S. has left farmers scrambling for enough hands at harvest time, especially because undocumented workers tend to leave agricultural work for higher-paying jobs in the construction, restaurant and hospitality industries."
As I stated the workers have moved onto better paying jobs, what are we now going to do? (Feinstein)Lets create another visa, great, how long before those workers move on and we bring in more, and on, and on....... How about lets end subsidizing (surplus crops - market control) and reduce the amount of workers needed by having less crop, and/or mechanize, which is cheaper and pays for itself within a very short time, usually within 2 - 3 years.
What about the $50 Million dollar farmer in your other article, nothing like exploiting for a profit! He can take that fortune of his and afford to mechanize probably 5 fold +.
Feinstein only cares about the money from the Farmers Association, good for her War Chest.
Why would we support Feinstein? Do You? nothing like going against Cesar Chavez and all he worked for to help the farm worker, so much for your civil rights you use to speak of.
Exactly, dee! Reagans amnesty in 1986 only encourged more illegal aliens to enter our country anticipating another amnesty for themselves. Now you are getting it. That is why we shouldn't do it again.
I already explained why assimilation won't happen in the ordinary way with these illegal aliens because of their numbers and because they are here by the millions from mostly one ethnic group. Spanish speakers are among the most adamant in retaining their native language and culture rather than assimilating. They lack the desire to do so and that is the big difference between them and the first immigrants.
Why would you print an article that is a fable? We should be dealing in reality here, not fables and lies.
How would the rights of Hispanic citizens be trampled on? They aren't here illegally and they have proof of their legality. As far as demonizing them, as long as they are on the side of our laws, they won't be demonized. Otherwise what do you expect?
Feinstein's bill was dated back in January. I think it already got voted down unless I am mistaken. Anyway if it did, one of the reasons is that it also was granting a path to citizenship for some of these illegals and that was the Republican's objection. If she wants to submit a bill with less beaurocrisy attached to it and no path to citizenship (temporary workers), it could quite possibly pass. But regardless if the current H-2A is compicated or not, that doesn't give that farmer or any farmers the right to hire illegal aliens.
Liquid, Feinstein and all the Farming spokesmen said this. Are you saying they are all lying?
Yes I am!! The farmers like cheap labor, means more profit for them, Feinstein is nothing more than their puppet, money goes into her war chest.
The farmers also get subsidization for their crops that you and Feinstein are claiming are rotting on the vines!
There are two issues:
1. AgJobs: Severe Shortages, Crops are rotting on the Vine. We need a solution.
2. We can either create a viable Guest Worker Program or Outsource to Other Countries (as in farmlands in MX)
Does the American Public understand this? I don´t think so.
A lot of our food is already being imported, fruits, vegetables, etc. Most Americans are already aware of this.
The only SEVERE LABOR SHORTAGES are the ones that are made up. Its the farmers own FAULT for not following the law, even still his crops are subsidized by our government through the taxes you and I pay, to allow his crops to fail and be plowed under, its called price setting.
Don't you ever have your own opinion, you state that you research everything yet you always agree with op-ed pieces and then claim them as fact, do some research into subsidization of crops, do some research on the H-2A visas, and then come back with your opinion of it.
What do you propose to do to keep workers in the fields and not moving up to better paying jobs further requiring more farm workers? How do you plan to stop the continuing cycle?
An application for an H-2A worker begins with the Department of Labor. Two copies of form ETA-750 are filed, one of which is sent to the appropriate DOL region, the other to the state employment service agency for the state in which work is sought. The application must be submitted at least 60 days before the temporary workers are needed. The DOL must approve it 20 days before the starting work date. If approved, the employer pays a base fee of $100 plus $10 for each position certified, up to a maximum of $1000.
The DOL directs recruitment efforts for H-2A positions. There are three types of possible recruitment: the state employment service agency can refer candidates to the employer, the employer can conduct independent recruitment, and recruitment can be conducted after the DOL certifies the applications. Most referrals come from the state agencies. While the statute requires growers to recruit US workers, DOL regulations do not strictly enforce this requirement. For this reason, employers heavily recruit for more H-2A workers while virtually ignoring available US workers.
Look at that very last sentence, makes one wonder doesn't it!!
Liquid, Any article I provide and post is researched. I base my opinion on the research and reports. You don´t have to agree with my opinions, but they are mine.
I have stated my proposals. My recommendation is to bring the 12M out of the shadows and ensure they have proper legal documentation initially via H2 Visas and to deport all felonious criminals. My recommendation is to secure borders and ensure employer sanctions.
You may be surprised but I do agree with you in some regard. I believe in automation and using technology to the maximum, this includes AgJobs. I also agree that AgJobs will be difficult to completely staff. We need to put our best minds on this issue and develop viable solutions for the future. With restricted borders in the future, we are going to have to come up with alternate solutions for supporting this work.
Card is a brilliant fiction writer (one of my favorites), and this is another masterpiece of fiction.
In addition to the other comments here, I would point out that the main problem with the assimilation argument is the complete lack of it. During this summer's amnesty debate, we never heard a peep about how we would assimilate 12-20M illegals (except from opponents asking the question of supporters, who never had an answer). That's because there is no true intent to assimilate these people - not by the illegal immigrant supporters, and not by the illegals themselves. Again, I submit to you that marching through the streets of American cities waving Mexican flags and demanding their 'rights' while speaking Spanish was a very telling indicator of exactly what level of assimilation they wished to accomplish.
Patriot is right - the difference between the original immigrants and today's immigrants is the desire (or lack of) to assimilate.
I agree totally with your point about needing to preserve the rights of legal Hispanics, but no one has ever suggested otherwise.
Also, we already have a viable guest worker program. The problem is that it is way too loose with who it lets in, how it keeps track of the guest workers, and so on. Why do we need another program to do what the current broken program already does? Shouldn't we instead try to fix the existing program? To do that, we need to know who is coming and going, and track their whereabouts while they're here. And that brings us squarely back to securing the border, which must happen first. Until that happens, everything else is just hypothetical.
this issue is one of the oldest known problems to mankind. who to let in and do the crappy jobs. Rome let the Germans in the border areas later Rome was attacked by them. In this case we stole our western states from Mexico and to tell ya the truth. If we hadn't they would be wastelands instead of our glorious states. Face it even our own American natives were about 2 shades brighter than a dog compared to other civilizations of south American Indians.I don't buy into the argument that illegal do jobs others wouldn't. Read grapes of wrath by Steinbeck. look at photos of the oakies that came to California to pick lettuce,oranges etc for pennies a day. Folks whose elders had fought in the civil war if not also the war of freedom of 1976 and were WHITE.When your kids are hungry as a man you'll do whatever it takes to feed them. We suffer from mass historical guilt. were probably the ugliest most terrifying race that God as ever allowed to exist. We steal lands and then punish the people we stole from. we fight civil wars over can a man of color be a man or an animal. We nuked a country twice and didn't even think twice bout it. yea i seasaw but that is what happens to such an issue. Be overrun by a neighboring country or make Americans get off their high perch and work like old days.We hunt down harmless Mexicans casue we are cowards. why not hunt down immgrinat Muslims? why arnt we raiding their mosques? The muslim enemy now controls Detroit and michgian. little wonder our cars now rank below other countries.See how mankind is? here your hating on some lil harmless dude looking for work and I am hating on the race that threatens mankind. btw look at some stats mexico city has 30 million people living in it. California has 30 million total. meaning you could open the gates of usa leave open for 10 years and never ever see the people that came in.Our Nation is massive and empty large sections of it. We tried to steal Canada lands once,but they kicked our ass and we back down like a scalded dog. Welcome to the life of a super power folks the world hates us, but beware of the country that claims to love us. its a lie. No one ever loved Rome only Romans did. ok glad I was able to ramble endlessly :)
wally, "we" did not steal any lands from Mexico. We fought a war, a treaty was signed and those lands were bought and paid for by the USA.
I disagree that most Americans want to do farm work. It doesn't pay a liveable wage and most Americans get an education to be able to pursue a career. So where there is a so-called shortage of ag workers, we should either mechanize or we should import temporary, legal, foreign workers.
Yes, the USA has had it's black marks in history but so has every other country in the world. It is just that we are a super power and we are the envy of many and therefore hated. I am not going to defend our politics of yesterday or today but most Americans were powerless in making those decisions. We think we live in a democracy but in reality it is just the upper echelon who make the decisions.
You are comparing apples to oranges with illegals vs Muslims in this country. Illegals are those who have broken our immigration laws. If a Muslim is here legally and hasn't broken any of our laws, why would we hunt them down? They haven't reached critical mass either like the illegals have.
You should do some research and use some common sense about our available natural resources, ariable land, social demands, air pollution, etc. vs massive population growth. It isn't just about open spaces, there are many other factors that one must be concerned about with population growth.
You say beware of country's that claim to love us. Mexicans say they do.....
CC, We only see what the media shows us. There are thousands of "Learn to Speak English" classes, billboards, volunteer groups,schools, etc. that teach people to speak English, teach them civics, economics, history. I have a participant on this blog, his name is Senor Guapo. He is a teacher who provides these courses to new immigrants (legal or illegal) who register for his course. There are schools like his in every major city.
It generally takes a generation to assimilate fully. Remember, the largest flow of immigrants (legal or illegal) came in since the 86 Reagan Amnesty, so it has not been a generation yet. I believe these folks are studying as fast as they can.
Does the media cover this? Nope. Not breaking news.
Did the media cover the peaceful demonstrations with American flags or the fact that police departments in many cities commended the marchers for their peaceful parades? Nope.
Feinstein has a bill before Congress which ensures identification and registration for guest workers. This bill should resolve your concerns.
Wally, California, the gold rush, the beautiful farmlands, wineries, they would still be there. I am glad that CA is part of the US though.
The grapes of wrath was during the depression. My Dad´s family lost all of their money too and they became migrants. Working in the migrant labor camps as a child, I know from first hand experience that there are no more oakies in the picking crews.
You may be right in one regard. If, as a result of the mass deportation Card is predicting, we experience a severe Recession-Depression, then we may have to resort to another Grapes of Wrath and force our spoiled children and ourselves to walk the 10 - 20 miles to the crop fields and harvest the crops in order to survive.
Wally, You bring up some interesting points. I like your ramblings. They make me think.
Your post reminds me of "The Matrix" quote my husband frequently references, "Humans are a virus."
I think we should remember history and vow not to make the mistakes of the past.
I do agree with Patriot (don´t get used to it Pat) re: the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. This was the start of the so-called relationship between USA and MX. MX agreed to it. The problem with the Treaty was the US didn´t honor the sections associated with the Texican (and other new citizens) land holders. This has more to do with individual ranch ownership and NOT Aztlanish principles.
I am still thinking about our accountability (yours, mine, all Americans) regarding the atrocities of our past and now.
Are we accountable for the atrocities which occurred due to Manifest Destiny? Hiroshima? Op Wetback? Japanese Internment? Trail of Tears? Slavery? Abu Ghraib?
Or do we wash our hands of any accountability by saying, it wasn´t me, I don´t control our government.
I do not have the answer to this but posts like yours keep me thinking about it. Thank you for post!!
Crystal Ball: If Pro-Illegals Get Their Wish
1. Hispanics will be an increasing part of our population. Therefore, we should be officially a bi-lingual nation, right now. All children will be taught in Spanish immersion classes. When Anglos become proficient in Spanish, we can go back to a single official language -- Spanish.
2. A pathway to citizenship should be available to all undocumented immigrants. This is not amnesty. It is just a humane and compassionate way of treating those who want to improve the lives of their families. We should invite them all to come here to participate in America’s welfare programs and increase the number living in poverty. If they re-create the very conditions they left their homelands to escape, that’s the breaks of the game.
3. There is no point in repatriating any undocumented workers. Any repatriation would be disruptive to our economy as well as unrealistic and expensive to implement. Undocumented workers should be able to travel freely at government expense.
4. The 14th amendment is now in the constitution and it is unrealistic to expect it to be changed. Anyone born in the U.S. is entitled to automatic citizenship whether the parents were here legally or not and whether they have been in the U.S. for one hour or five years. Children born in the U.S. of terrorists will be given special consideration and four year college scholarships regardless of merit.
5. The Border Patrol should be focusing on drug smugglers and potential terrorists rather than those who are merely seeking work to improve the lot of their families. . All border crossings will have facilities for the immediate issuance of Social Security cards, drivers’ licenses, green cards and other forms of documentation and identity. These credentials will be issued without charge and without any proof of identity, background check or medical exam. All border patrol agents not involved in the issuance of these documents or drug interdiction will be laid off.
6. If the world’s population swells from 6.5 billion to 11 billion by the end of this century, that will represent an opportunity for the sale of more American goods. Poverty, misery and disease is being brought under control in China, India, Bangladesh and Sub-Saharan Africa. Bono and Bill Gates have been working to improve the health and welfare of poverty-stricken nations so soon these nations should be able to produce even more children quicker, further increasing the market for American goods. New discoveries of petroleum deposits expected to be found in wild life refuges, national parks and monuments will assure that all of the additional people will have gasoline for their automobiles and heating oil or natural gas for their homes.
7. The U.S. has vast wide-open spaces that can accommodate the millions of additional people. First, we propose to open all public lands, forests, parks and monuments to immediate development. Second, we propose to use the money saved by disbanding the Bureau of Land Management, and the U.S and State Forest and Park Services to construct pipelines to bring fresh water from Canada and the Great Lakes to Mexico and to the arid Southwest. In the meantime, undocumented workers on the Great Plains and the Southwest will learn how to adapt to the environment of the coyote and the javelina just as Native Americans did in earlier times.
8. Our health care system is in such good shape we can easily accommodate hundreds of millions of more people.
9. We have such large reserves of petroleum, we soon won't have to give the Arabs in the Middle East the time of day and therefore we don't need to stabilize our population.
10. Employer sanctions are unnecessary because everyone wants the lower prices that result from the employment of undocumented workers at substandard wages. Employers can safely ignore any laws to the contrary because no one is going to enforce them, no matter what bill the congress passes.
11. We don't need no stinkin' National IDs. Just give drivers licenses to anyone who can pass the test or cheat. That’s a good enough ID.
12. All types of visas are good because they bring people to this country who can make a contribution to a higher unemployment rate for lazy citizens.
13. Immigrants are human beings and deserve to have access to all the benefits and services accorded to American citizens. Some immigrants even pay social security, Medicare, property, income and sales taxes. So lighten up out there and send the undocumented their welfare checks and open more emergency rooms to make sure they can get medical care on demand.
14. We don’t need fences. We need rapid transit systems to move the undocumented workers and their families quickly and safely to their destinations.
15. Those aiding the passage of undocumented workers will be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
16. Minutemen will be arrested and charged with vigilantism.
17. Employers are free to hire anyone they wish and pay them at the lowest possible wage level. No benefits are necessary because free medical care is available in the expanded set of emergency rooms.
18. Undocumented workers are encouraged to have as many children as possible to quickly fill up all the open space in the U.S. The number of tax exemptions is unlimited and the amount of each exemption will be doubled. Family planning, birth control, abortions, vasectomies and tubal ligations will all be illegal and subject to severe penalties.
19. There are no limits on immigration. The poor, down-trodden masses from all over the world, including the deepest jungles of Africa and South America, the frozen tundra of Siberia, and from the Yurts of Mongolia, are encouraged to come to the U.S. at the expense of our government. There is no language or other citizenship requirements for entry but Spanish will be the official language for government business and publications.
If immigrants cannot read and write Spanish, they cannot vote regardless of their citizenship status.
20. All history prior to the implementation of this proposed immigration reform bill will be expunged from all media held by libraries and from all text books used in schools. There will be a national Book Burning Day.
http://ultima-2.blogspot.com/
"The failure of the so-called "amnesty bill" leaves the government no choice other than expulsion of anyone without papers.The National Guard is activated and the city and state police forces are nationalized. Sweeps of Hispanic neighborhoods round up all the Spanish-speaking people with brown skin and sort them out according to who has the right documentation.Six million of them are found to be illegal immigrants.They are loaded into buses, trucks, cattle cars and transported to the Mexican border."
This sounds alot like my fantasy, except I wouldn't limit it to "Spanish-speaking" "Mexicans". I don't care what color they are or what language they speak, if they don't have "documentation" they don't belong here. If they won't leave then we have every right to show them out by force.
The reality is that crimes are being perpetrated by these illegal invaders we're supposed to feel sorry for, and the victims are millions of English-speaking Americans who have "documents". We are being ethnically cleansed - forced to either live with crime and violence brought by the invaders, or pull up their roots and flee them.
This is the fantasy of the brown supremacists. And it's a fantasy that's actually coming true.
So please excuse me for not being sympathetic to the invaders (or their sympathizers) in the unlikely event our government ever does act to defend us.
Tan, I knew this was your fantasy!
I said it was close. But it certainly does sound like your factually incorrect (6M) and Mexi-centric distortion of my fantasy.
Tan, Tan, Tan, Tan, Tan,
Read his article.
The 1st premise is to sweep the Hispanic neighborhoods. Then after racial profiling millions of people, they catch 6M in these sweeps.
It doesn´t mean they catch them all in these horrible sweeps. It just means this is who they caught.
Like fishing with nets. You don´t get every fish in the ocean.
BTW, don´t get your hopes up. This AINT GONNA HAPPEN!!
No, like I said, it isn't. And no comment from you on the brown supremacist fantasy that IS happening. Very telling.
Here's another story that made me think of you. Specifically how you demonize the Minutemen but won't say boo about MS-13 and the many other invaders who are killing people.
Tan, The problem you have is you continue to post OpEds from WorldNet Daily or similar disreputable sites.
Jack did not have a leg to stand on in his article. Apparently he´s never heard of Simcox or Schwilk.
Regarding brown supremicist fantasy.. don´t have a clue what you are talking about.
I have cited my position many times. Secure Borders. Employer Sanctions. Bring the 12M out of the shadows.
Yes, we know your position, dee. You have repeated it over and over in here till our heads are all going to burst. I don't know what you think you are gaining by boring us all to death with your constant repetitions.
You don't really want secure borders, you want more Mexicans in here. You don't want employer sanctions, I am sure you objected to the ICE raids. You want the illegals out of the shadows to make citizens out of them, therefore more Mexicans in our country permanently. Ain't gonna happen!
I don't know about you pat, but my words and links aren't for dee's benefit. I'm convinced she's actually a Mexican citizen, logging in from her job working for the Mexican government. This probably is her job. It certainly explains "her" better than her cover story. I know plenty of old ladies and even the senile ones aren't as thick as dee pretends to be.
Actually Tan, I have hunch that she is an American citizen which is even scarier than if she were a Mexican living in Mexico.
Her kind can do a lot more damage here. She is an ethnocentric Hispanic (most are) who relishes the thought of a Mexican takeover of our country. I wonder why the FBI doesn't investiage these kind of so-called citizens?
Tan and Pat, Your paranoia is overwhelming you this evening. Relax. Have a glass of wine. You will feel better.
You both know I am an American. My cultural background is Hispanic. You all know this. Read my profile.
The problem is you are so afraid of facts, truth, justice and the American way. We are multi-cultural and a beautiful country.
Tan, Pat,
The only one you have to fear is this guy:
click here
Dee - True, we do see primarily what the media wants us to see. However, I would venture to say that if there truly were "thousands" of people working hard to assimilate, then why don't we EVER hear of condemnation from these so-called assimilators of those who AREN'T assimilating? The non-assimilators are giving the assimilators a bad name, so it's only logical that if there truly is this groundswell of assimilation going on, it should stand up and make its presence known. Since there has been absolutely no mention of such a movement in recent memory, the only logical assumption is that it simply doesn't exist.
21 years is a full generation. What's the holdup? Personally, I don't think it should take even that long. I spent a week in Mexico when I was in high school, and I learned more Spanish in that week than I did in two years of classes. I'm not sure what that says about my classes, but what it does prove is that to be voluntarily saturated in a culture is to absorb it very quickly. It should not take a generation, it should take just a few years.
I don't recall hearing about any peaceful demonstrations with American flags - point me to some links, and I'll grant you the point that they're out there somewhere. Until then, I'm skeptical.
Feinstein's bill only serves to ratchet up my concerns to a new level - it's another amnesty program. True, it's a smaller amnesty, and one that focuses on agriculture workers, but it's still amnesty. Unless the Dems in Congress can pull a fast one, this bill should get smacked down by the American people, too. When will they figure out that Americans simply don't want it??
We are a beautiful and multi-cultural country because people have come here from all over the world to add their culture to America, not the other way around. The illegal enablers are seeking to dilute American culture to allow the emergence of other cultures. Why else would they insist on bilingual government forms, prevention of English as the official language, blatant violation of American laws, and so on? These things are inherently American, and to deny them is to deny American heritage.
People like Arellano reveal a perfect double standard: the laws of America didn't matter when she committed a felony to come here (more than once), committed another felony by stealing an American's identity, and by skipping out on her legally-determined deportation. But, once she was finally kicked out, THEN her son's rights as an American citizen are paramount and she should have been allowed to stay.
What a joke.
CC, Assimilation, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.
Example: You went to MX and you say you learned more Spanish in a
week than you did in 2 years in class. I doubt anyone would say you were assimilated in MX.
Peaceful Demonstrations quietly mentioned but not breaking news for the media: (I´ll take your apology now - thank you):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12250356/
http://origin.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_5792927
http://www.nbc5.com/politics/13227598/detail.html
Another Assimilation Example:
I am as assimilated as you are. Yet, coming out of Walmart a few months back, a parking lot vendor came up to me trying to sell some goofy product. I tried my best to ignore him, then he starts rattling off in Spanish. He took one look at me, brown hair, olive skin, brown eyes. He assumes I am not assimilated.
This is the same thing you and many ANTIs do. You see people with brown hair, brown eyes and olive skin and you assume they are all not assimilated and illegal immigrants. It is just not true.
Example: You think most of the marchers were illegal immigrants just because they had brown hair, brown eyes and olive skin.
Studies done by a University in Chicago indicated the vast majority of the marchers were citizens.
You hold Arellano up as an example. She is not my example. She does more for your side than mine.
I believe in Truth and Justice. I am American. Most of the marchers were American and in May 2006, most were protesting the Sensennbrenner bill.
What you fail to realize though dee, is that we still have an identity and it isn't a Hispanic identity. Hispanics and other multi-cultural groups are only the minority in this country. Just like Mexico may have a certain amount of diversity but their identity is still Mexican. Why do you object to Americans keeping their identity while you seem to have no problem with Mexico retaining it's natural identity? That is being a hypocrite. This is where you go wrong and this is where I find you to be a fifth columnist in our country seeking to get as many Mexicans into our country as possible so that we are no longer a country based on Anglo culture and the English language.
The truth and the facts are that it is not unfounded paranoia, it is happening right before our eyes by this illegal invasion primarily from Mexico.
Why do you make up such nonsense stories, dee? No one assumes anything about whether someone is assimilated or not until they open their mouths or behave in a way that is un-American. No one assumes whether or not someone is assimilated by the color of one's skin, hair or eye color or whether or not they are here legally. When I see a Latino, I assume no such thing by your criteria. You are just playing victim here. Grow up!
Assimilation is not in the eyes of the beholder and not a gray area. It is a totatally describable and undeniable occurance.
Pat, You are exposing yourself when you make statements like this:
"Hispanics and other multi-cultural groups are only the minority in this country."
What you fail to understand is:
1. Americans with multi-cultural ethnicities ARE AMERICANS
2. America is Multi Cultural
This beautiful country of ours is not Northern European centric. We are multi ethnic centric.
Pat, Give us your definition of Assimilation. Number your definition. e.g. 1.xxx 2.xxx etc.
Pat, I also find it amusing that you learned the term 5th Column from Tan and you continue to repeat it ad nauseum.
I find it ironic you use this term yet do not know its origins. If you did, you probably wouldn´t use it. It is a term originally used by Emilio Mola during the Spanish Civil War, and you, an ANTI, is using. So ironic!!
Are you going to deny dee, that white anglos are the majority in this country? That their language and culture is not mainstream America? At least if you are going to debate, debate with reality and truth. The point that there are minorities in this country does not negate that fact. Although I am sure you would love to. You are trying to put minorities and their cultures and languages on the same identity plain as mainstream but they are not. They are just here. Nothing more and nothing less.
WHT? You rhink that I need others to teach me certain terms to use? Fifth columnist is a common term to describe commies among us and I often use it outside of this dumb blog.
Assimilation: adopting the language, culture, political beliefs and customs of the country one has migrated to. That also means blending in out in public with the rest of the populace rather than standing out in behavior.
Pat, You continue to expose yourself.
You Say:
. White Anglo (northern european)are the majority culture in the US
. We should all "assimilate" to the majority culture (White Anglo)
Most people do not agree with you.
We are a multi cultural society comprised of many cultures into one. E Pluribus Unum
e Pluribus Unum: Out of many one. One state made of many states, One culture made of many cultures, One tribe made of many tribes, One Clan made of many clans, One family made of many families, made of individuals as unique and precious as life itself!!
"I find it ironic you use this term yet do not know its origins. If you did, you probably wouldn´t use it. It is a term originally used by Emilio Mola during the Spanish Civil War."
That is an interesting bit of trivia but I suspect many words we use have obscure origins in the distant past. The point is "In wartime [immigration's unarmed invasion], the civilians [Hispanic and other Americans] within defense lines [borders] who secretly [and not so secretly] assist the enemy by acting as spies, saboteurs and propagandists [MALDEF, MEChA, La Raza, LULAC, Brown Berets]."
What a stupid aritcle. The US still has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. All we are asking is that Mexicans and others comply with our laws and policies if they want to come here. Starting out life in America as a criminal is the wrong way to begin.
I am exposing myself? What does that mean? I am giving you the facts and that is exposing oneself? The facts speak for themselves! Why didn't you answer my question? Is it not true that white anglos are the majority in this country and that their culture and language is what this country is based on?
Who are thes "most" people that dont' agree with me? Some minorities? They aren't the majority so how can "most" people not agree with me? Assimilation has always been a desired factor in this country.
You don't even understand your own statement, "we are many cultures blended into one. The key word here is ONE.
I asked you another question that you didn't answer. Why is ok for Mexico to have a dominant culture and language but not the U.S.? You are nothing but an ethnocentric commie, dee.
Pat, I answered all of your questions. Please re read my last response to you.
No, you didn't answer my two questions, dee. Not at all. Take each one individually without interjecting spin on them and answer them exactly as they are questioned. Otherwise you will continue to look like the dodging fool that you are.
Pat, Just for you, I will give you the simple response.
1. You expose yourself (as what you are) when you say the majority in this country are White Anglos (Anglo = Northern European)
White Anglos are NOT the majority. When your hero Teddy Roosevelt made the quotes he made, he was referencing German, Russian, Italian, and Irish. The 1924 Immigration laws were EXCLUSION laws intended to limit the rate of Eastern, Southern European and Asian. The highest rate of "white" americans are german. Add the rest of Eastern, Southern European, Asian, African American and Latino, the White Anglo you describe are by far, the minority.
Americans, true Americans, believe in e Pluribus Unum, out of many cultures, we become One!!
Simpler English:
Americans, true Americans are a hybrid. We are all evolved, combined, assimilated culture, far advanced from the Pilgrims of old.
Ok, when I used the term "anglo" I meant whites, all whites combined. Those of German, British, Irish, Polish, etc. ancestry. Happy now? They are the majority in this country. From the CIA Worldfact Book: The U.S.A. is comprised of 81.7% whites. Hispanics are included in that number, however since there is only about 40 million Hispanics in this country out of 300 million citizens that means that those from the white European root group above are well the majority in this country. Blacks are at 12.9%. All others fall below that.
Out of many ONE! You just don't get it do you? One means single. A single culture, a single language that is the main identity of the U.S.
Why didn't you answer my second question? I asked you why it is ok for Mexico to have a distinct culture and an official language but according to you the U.S. doesn't or shouldn't? Don't give me that land of the immigrants argument either because we are a land of Americans now no matter where our ancestors came from.
Pat, ok.
Now you are saying in your White Anglo Majority equation you are including:
. German, British, Irish, Polish.
What about Italian. Are you including Italian? Are you saying Italians are excluded from White Anglos?
How about Jewish. Are you including Jewish? Are you saying Jewish are excluded from White Anglos?
Asian? What about Asian. It apears you are excluding them. Are you saying Asian are excluded from White Anglos?
Mexicans and ALL Latins, including Cubans. It appears you excluding them too. Are you saying all Latinos are excluded from White Anglos?
What about African Americans? Are you saying African Americans are excluded from White Anglos?
You are differentiating from the exclusions Teddy Roosevelt was excluding?
Just want to be clear here.
Did you not read my ETC.? You do know what that means, don't you? Did you want me to mention every country in the world who has white inhabitants?
Asians aren't white nor are some of the others you mentioned. The subject was the white majority in this country. You have to exclude Black, ETC. if one is talkinga about the white majority in this country. Are you sure you are a grown woman? Did you fail reading in school?
Pat, Just so I am clear. From the WHITE Majority you speak of, you are Excluding:
1. Latinos-Hispanics
2. Asians
3. African Americans
These folks have a little brownish tan to their skin. Are you exluding them too?
a. Jewish
b. Italians
c. Middle Eastern
d. Islanders??
tell us who else you are excluding from YOUR Majority.
Are you also Excluding Native Americans, Eskimos, Hawaiians?
Typical. dee, both a product and proponent of multiculturalism, uses the confusion created by the inherent illogic of multiculturalism as an argument in its favor. Pure jibber jabber.
Multiculturalism and diversity are lies. Where Ladeeenyos invade they eventually push out all others. There is no diversity. No Anglo people or culture remains. Look at south Texas. Look at LA.
ultima, thanks for your comment on "fifth column". dee is like Humpty Dumpty, to her words mean whatever she thinks they mean.
And is your version of America that all these off white people ASSIMILATE to you? To you Northern European very White Anglo Saxons?
Tan, I see you agree with Pat.
All off-white people who come to America MUST Assimilate to the very Whitish, Northern European standard superior people (as you believe) have set. You, Tanton, Beck, and the rest of you. Is that what you are expecting?
What part of assimilation don't you understand dee? You come to any nation and its inhabitants expect you to adopt to their norms, not impose yours on them.
What's with your white/non-white rhetoric? Is that some sort of lame attempt at race-baiting? Are you a racist? Ladeeenyos are ethnically cleansing south central LA. They'll do the same to the Asians and Eskimos and everybody else who isn't a Ladeeenyo.
I am excluding them from being white because they are not white! We were talking about the white majority in this country that is all. That doesn't mean I am excluding other races as existing in this country. Is it happy hour at your house now or what? What is it that you don't understand? Are you really this dense or do you just play act at it? You have got to be one of the stupidest person I have ever encountered.
Tan, Please go back and read Patriots comments. He is the one who initiated the White Anglo Assimilation norm recommendation.
I merely asked questions to clarify his intended meaning.
It appears you agree with him.
Pat, Are you saying that as long as minorities adapt to what you term the White Anglo assimilation model you propose then they are assimilated?
Skin color has nothing to do with the process of assimilation. If I migrated to Africa, should I protest assimilation to their society just because my skin color is white? WTH has that to do with it?
If one doesn't want to adapt/adopt the ways of the country they are migrating to, then why bother migrating there? Stay where your native culture and language is mainstream then in your own damn country.
If you go to someone's house as a guest and they don't want you to smoke in it, do you light up anyway because you feel discrimianted against? Or maybe you could argue that your skin is brown and that is the reason they don't want you to smoke but it would be ok for a white to do it? Just how far fetched are we getting here? See how foolish these arguments against assimilation are?
I haven't got any problem saying I'm an ethnocentric person who favors my own culture and race. It is perfectly natural human nature, and every ethnicity and race except whites are permitted this indulgence without criticism. Whites are beginning to realize this ridiculous double-standard and reject it.
What I find curious dee, is your denial of your own bigotry, even while you try to shame others about theirs.
Tan, As I´ve said many times, I believe in a multi cultural society. My family is American. The ethnicities of my family include: Hispanic, Irish-Scottish, African American, Asian, German, and more. You can call it multicentric.
Tan, while I agree there is nothing wrong with humans identifying with their own race and culture, where I draw the line is when they put their race above their other fellow citizens and their country and even act in treasonous ways to elevate their race above others and the laws of their own country. That is true bigotry and racism.
I am white but I sure don't think my race is superior just because I state the FACT that whites are the majority race in this country and that this country is based on white culture and the English language. All they are is FACTS, nothing else. I wouldn't move to Mexico and not learn and speak Spanish and I would adapt to their society. It is respect for the host country that you chose to migrate too.
pat, I don't think you and disagree about anything substantial. The purpose of this blog is to distract, disinform, and distort. Keep that in mind when dee twists your words.
Tan, you and I don't disagree. My post was mainly for dee's benefit. But as you can see, no matter how clear we make things for her she will put her own twist and spin on it. For example, my remark that whites are the majority in this country was just a FACT. She twisted it around to say that I was excluding other races or groups. She does this on purpose to demonize those who are opposed to illegal immigration. I don't know if she is a liar, commie, ethnocentric or all of the above. My guess is all of the above.
From the CIA World Fact Book on United States statistics:
Ethnic groups:
white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)
Here is another intesting fact about how our population is growing. Note that the birthrate is nearly double that of the death rate in the U.S.
Birth rate:
14.16 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)
Death rate:
8.26 deaths/1,000 population (2007 est.)
The issue is preservation of our ethnic identity as a people.Population Data has been taken from the United States Census of 2001, and by the United Nations Population Database. All Data can be verified.
2002 Current Populations -
World Population 6.4 Billion
Total US Population = 284, 796,887
US Racial Percentage Population = 69% White to 31% non-white
Total White US Population = 196, 509,852
Total European Population = 720, 304,000
Total Canada Population = 32, 007,000
Total Australian Population = 20, 110,000
Total World White Population = 968, 930,852
Total White World Population percentage is 12%
I would say that being white in the world population is a minority, however since the USA was founded by white settlers, we have the right to be the majority in this country and set the rules and laws for others to obey and adhere to, if the minority groups don't like it, to damned bad.
Technically, a high rate of Hispanics, both legal and illegal, are White.
The Hispanics that occupy Mexico, much of Latin America and the U.S. are only partially white. Most are mixed white and native indian. They are not Causasian or Anglo white. They are usually referred to as Mestizo, not White.
E Pluribus Unum = assimilation
"In this case we stole our western states from Mexico and to tell ya the truth. If we hadn't they would be wastelands instead of our glorious states."
The Atzlanista who believe we stole our western states from Mexico are thinking along the same lines as the Germans whose ultimate goal of winning back property in Poland after clear international treaties which ended WW II and the Cold War. Their goal is hopeless. There is no legal basis for individual damage claims by those expelled from the German eastern provinces when the Poles moved in as a result of the expulsion from Poland's eastern provinces when the Russians moved in. Neither is there any legal basis for Poles who have fond memories about lost property in Ukraine. Get the message Atzlan? Get the message fellow travelers?
Things that promote Mexican hegemony in North America are an affront to American dignity, sovereignty and culture.
Whoever suggested that the Southwest would be a great wasteland of ranchos and peons if the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo had not been signed, was right. That's the main worry here. That it can still happen if we allow Amexico to come to fruition. The Mexican oligarchs will move in with their peons and America will be no more much to the dismay of those who find present day America congenial to their families, their ways of life, and their standard of living. It's a shame any Hispanic American finds it necessary to support this transformation. It can only be stopped with the stiffest of measures and penalities.
Dee said "I believe in Truth and Justice. I am American. Most of the marchers were American and in May 2006, most were protesting the Sensennbrenner bill."
If so, the next logical question is why? If these were all citizens in the protests, why were they not acting like American citizens rather than foreigners with foreign flags? Why the ethnocentric demonstration in the first place? Their loyalty is in serious question even if their citizenship is not. We would be a few miles down the road if Sensenbrenner had passed. That would have been a good first step.
Attempts to make a mockery of history are becoming the a form of propaganda of certain elements in American society.
Ultima, Many people in the marches carried American flags. Many cities congratulated them for their Peaceful demonstratoins.
This just didn´t make the "Breaking News" stories because the various news channels just want ratings.
Ultima, I do agree it is important to remember History.
I´ve just started my new book and I just posted my first chapter.
It is still under construction, but as I am doing my research, I thought I would post each section as I am writing them so my helpers can help me edit more quickly.
BTW, I posted my family pictures for my 1st Book, Resilience. You can see me at 5 years old!!
Remembering history and making a mockery of it or re-writing it as Ultima has stated are two different things.
If one is going to use history to demonize certain groups of people who weren't even alive back then it serves no purpose except mis-placed vengeance.
T, I mean Pat, I have no clue what you are talking about. My new book, Chapter 1 is merely documenting various events in History which relate to Immigration.
No re writing at all. Just the facts. References included.
Those reconquistas who believe that part of the U.S. still belongs to Mexico are re-writing history.
Your constant yapping about the victims of history and tranferring blame onto our current society is another example of what I am trying to convey here.
Pat,
My new book is very factual and will be a very good reference for those interested in studying the history of immigration.
The history of immigration has nothing to do with todays 'Illegals' who have come here thinking that they will be given a free ride with another amnesty provided by our Government. The citizens of this country spoke, there will be no more amnesties, not now, not in the future.
Liquid, Sorry. History has brought us to exactly where we are today. All the documentation proves it.
So what? That doesn't mean that we shouldn't deal with the problem now that it has become critical.
Here is an analogy for you, dee. If you discovered you had cancer years ago and yet you didn't seek treatment for it and allowed it spread to other parts of your body, does that mean you should just roll over and die now or would it be wise to finally seek treatment and hopefully still spare your life? It would have been dumb to ignore the cancer in the first place. Better late than never!
In response to your question, the doctor finds out what caused your cancer (e.g: smoking) and has you stop it.
For your analogy, the cancer is the very environment that has brought us to this state. (Employers exploiting, Lobbyists lobbying, the Admin partnering with other govts)
The illegal immigrants may be the drug addicts fix. The ANTIs may be the pain in the side.
Comprehensive Immigration Reform could be the healing chemo. (The PROs might be the car that takes you to treatment)
What I said in my analogy is that my hypothetical person didn't seek treatment for their cancer. They let it grow until it had spread. My hypothetical person could be compared to our government or many foolish Americans.
You proposed immigration reform would kill the patient, not cure it. It would put the final nail in the casket.
Dee - thanks for the three links. It's interesting that when you look at those stories you see people waving American flags in the background at peaceful marches. When I look at them, however, I see Mexican flags in the foreground and quotes from admitted illegal aliens. I think you illustrated my point for me!
Sure, many of the people in those marches were legal, but there were also many who were not, and you just proved it yourself. The third story, although not containing any direct quotes from illegals, still talks about people carrying the flags of their native countries, which flies directly in the face of your pretext of assimilation. When are you going to acknowledge that there is no real desire for true assimilation on the part of most illegal immigrants? Yes, you can retain your native heritage (and you should), but when you become an American, you are an American FIRST. Not the other way around. Sneaking into America illegally and flying the flag of your home country isn't assimilation, and it's one of the main reasons Americans (real ones, who are legally here, and actually DO have rights) are angry about this.
CC, I always acknowledge there are some Americans who are angry when they see a Mexican flag being waved by someone Hispanic.
You must admit, you do not know the citizenship status of that person merely by looking at them.
And if you say there is disloyalty to this, then you would say the same to any flag waver at St Patricks day parade, Puerto Rican Day, Italian Festivals, Taste of Festivals in many cities, etc.
The problem with you side is many of you make blanket statements.
Most of the marchers were American citizens. Most of the 2006 marchers were protesting the Sensenbrenner bill.
I think you agree, the vast majority of marchers were peacefully protesting.
If we study history and the history of Immigration in our country and the various Bracero type programs brought by business and the government, then we understand there is a vital need for comprehensive immigration reform.
In the meantime, I believe it is important to keep the discussion open and civil as congress discusses this issue.
Correction: should say "problem with your side" NOT "you side"
"And if you say there is disloyalty to this, then you would say the same to any flag waver at St Patricks day parade, Puerto Rican Day, Italian Festivals, Taste of Festivals in many cities, etc."
There is a big difference of waiving a foreign flag during a festival or parade (permitted) v. marching with one in a protest demanding rights for peoples that do not belong here.
Agreed, liquid. Nothing wrong with designated festivals and parades celebrating one's heritage but when foreign flags are flown protesting American law by foreigners who shouldn't even be in this country that's a whole different ball of wax. American citizens marching along with them is totally disgusting to me.
Again, the majority of marchers were American citizens. During the May marches, the majority were protesting the Sensennbrenner bill. The majority of marchers were peaceful, had a permit and many were commended by their local law enforcement for their civility. They had every right to march. they had every right to fly the flag of their choice. We are in our Great USA and we do still have Civil Liberties.
We do not live in a Dictatorship where we are ruled by Gestapo treatment.
We are in the land of the free and the home of the brave, with Civil Liberties.
Dee, you are assuming the majority were Citizens, best evidence is some were some were not. There right to march was questionable based on some of the signs and slogans that were being carried. Their right to carry the flag of their choice is ultimately what nailed their coffins closed. Again it was all their choices that made them march, carry the wrong flags, carry signs with the wrong slogans. Now its the American Citizens choice to have them all deported. So you see everybody has choices, their choices put them in hot water.
Sorry Liquid. The facts are, there studies completed on the participants of the marches. I recall a study completed by a university in Chicago which indicated the vast majority were citizens. I have previously posted these urls on another site.
The problem with your side is you have no solid data to prove what percent were or were not citizens. All studies I have seen is they were citizens with valid permits. Otherwise, they would have been cited. You know this as well as I do. Therefore, there is more credibility to the PRO side vs your ANTI side. Additionally, a number of news reports indicated the marches were peaceful.
Sorry Liquid. As much as you would like to demonize the situation, the facts are, the vast majority of marchers were citizens. They demonstrated peacefully. They had permits to march. Those that carried flags, US or otherwise, were within their rights to do so.
"The problem with your side is you have no solid data to prove what percent were or were not citizens."
The ones who pulled the permits were legal citizens, however that does not mean that a majority of the marchers were citizens, still at best one can only come to the conclusion that some marchers were and some marchers were not citizens. Those interviewed during the marches in LA, all claimed to be 'Illegal', therefor like I stated, still at best one can only come to the conclusion that some marchers were and some marchers were not citizens.
I am not demonizing anything or anybody, I simply stated the facts as to why the reform failed due to the marchers and their choices in '06 and '07.
Here's a question for you, where were all the Irish, Chinese, Russian, etc. marchers? They weren't marching with the Hispanic crowd, where are there marchers? Why weren't they flying their flags so proudly?
Liquid said: "Those interviewed during the marches in LA, all claimed to be 'Illegal'"
Sorry Liquid. I will need some urls that show these folks said this. I have read nothing about this and as you know I do my research.
Regarding other ethnicities: As Bob Schmidt has said, the marchers were organized via the Mexican American radio stations. I believe many were recruited for the 1st march via that method.
I have seen a few websites with other ethnicities supporting pro immigration reform, particularly from the Asian and Chinese. I had them a few months ago when I was doing some research for something else.
Interviewed 'Illegals' - More Immigrants Take to Streets to Protest Proposed Laws Middle of the article, 2 admitted 'Illegals' giving their reasons for marching, and more 'Illegals' throughout the article.
So I state again, still at best one can only come to the conclusion that some marchers were and some marchers were not "Citizens".
Heres one about LA - Thousands of immigrants march in LA to protest plan by Bush
"For my wife and I it would cost about $30,000," said Francisco Gomez, 41, who along with his wife is in the country illegally. "Multiply that by all the illegal immigrants here ... It's obvious Bush just wants to fund his Iraq war with our money."
Maria Lopez, 50, an illegal immigrant who works as a seamstress and sends $200 a month home to family members in Mexico, said she could never apply for residency under Bush's plan.
"We have no way to come up with that much money, and Bush knows that," she said. "He is doing this on purpose so we don't ever become legal residents."
Alfredo Gonzalez, 33, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, marched with his wife and daughters, ages 6 and 8. He said he fears the stepped-up immigration raids happening across the country.
"If they kick me out, who is going to take care of my daughters? The government? I don't think so," said Gonzalez, who works in construction. "We need full legalization and we need it now."
For you doing your research.... these took me about 10 minutes to find. Why has it been so hard for you to find this info?
Liquid, Did you read my response. I said "most were citizens." I did not say ALL.
This is YOUR statement which I refuted:
Liquid said: "Those interviewed during the marches in LA, ALL
claimed to be 'Illegal'"
Granted, there were "some" not "ALL" that is a ludicrous statement and untrue.
And I did not see a picture of an illegal person carrying anything in your articles. None, nada, zip.
All = those interviewed. There are some articles that claim ALL marchers were "Illegal", however like I said Some were some were not. Sorry that you misread what I intended. You can do your own research for pictures, they are all over the net.
MOST = majority, does it not? I stated Some were, some were not. So to be technical your statement then is also ludicrous and untrue.
I am glad you said the word "also."
Salman Rushdie, "...runs through a list of the theatres and galleries that have censored themselves in the face of religious fundamentalist protests. He mentions that the entire British media - from the BBC down - placed itself in purdah during the Mohammed cartoons episode. 'What I fear most is that, when we look back in 25 years' time at this moment, what we will have seen is the surrender of the West, without a shot being fired. They'll say that in the name of tolerance and acceptance, we tied our own hands and slit our own throats. One of the things that have made me live my entire life in these countries is because I love the way people live here.'"
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