In 2008, Arizona´s tough, new anti-immigration law signed in June by Gov. Janet Napolitano goes into effect. This law puts at risk Arizona businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants. These laws are so severe for business that knowingly or intentionally failing to VERIFY citizenship will cause the employer’s business licenses to be suspended. A second offense can result in the business being put out of business, or as some call it, the "business Death Penalty."
Arizona business owners will be REQUIRED to use the U.S. government’s automated system to verify employee citizenship. The automated system that Arizona businesses will have to use starting next year is known as the Basic Pilot Project or BPP. BPP was made available as a voluntary program in all 50 states beginning in July 2004, according to the Department of Homeland Security.
Come January, so many businesses will be put out of business, their heads will be spinning. You see, many AZ business are very fuzzy about these new laws.
I am personally asking all illegal immigrants to LEAVE ARIZONA as soon as possible. Start packing today and leave now.If possible, you may want to return to your country of origin. If it is not possible, then move to New Mexico. Gov Richardson has decried the border fence. "The Congress should abandon the fence, lock, stock and barrel," Richardson said Thursday in a speech at Georgetown University laying out a four-part plan for immigration overhaul. "It flies in the face of America as a symbol of freedom."
I also suggest all PRO Immigration Reform supporters leave Arizona as soon as possible. If for nothing else, do this on principle. Move to New Mexico or Las Vegas. There are plenty of jobs in both places, housing costs are down, the climate is similar to AZ.
Let´s try this grand experiment. Call it a boycott if you will. Let Arizona build their wall from border to border, first a wall between AZ and MX. Then a wall between AZ and CA. Next a wall between AZ and NM.
Bring in the Minutemen to help you build the fence. They are already patrolling for free. The PROs can sell their homes at cost to the MMs. Bring in Simcox and Schwilke from San Diego. Bring in Tancredo and Gilchrist. Bring in William (from the alleycats) and while you are at it, bring in David Duke and others from the extremist ANTI crowds.
If Napolitano is successful, she will achieve her thriving Mayberrian culture and economy the ANTIs frequently talk about. AZ will serve as a role model to other states. Water and clean air will fill the lungs of the pale Northern European cultural ANTIs. No Spanish will touch the corners of their ears. No "Anchor Babies." McDonalds and Wal-Mart will pay $20 an hour to the elderly and students. The crops will be harvested and picked by teams of former auto workers being paid $30 an hour. It will be a Mayberrian Wonderland to serve as a role model for all the world to see!!
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Are these your words, dee? You said you wanted to sanction the employers but now that Arizona will be the pilot plan to do this you are now complaining about it?
What is this anti-immigration law? There is no such thing.
Your hatred of white culture is pretty obvious in your post. We have just as much right to retain our culture in this country, especially since it was the one that it was founded on and is the dominant one, as do Mexicans in their country.
If Mexicans are allowed to retain their culture and language in Mexico, why aren't anglo- Americans allowed to retain theirs here on which this country was founded on? Why do you have a double standard?
Your hysteria and off the wall comments show your anger coming through quite clearly in your post. No white that I know of is anti-immigration but we do not want so many of them that we lose our identity as nation. Your true colors are coming out, dee.
"Come January, so many businesses will be put out of business, their heads will be spinning. You see, many AZ business are very fuzzy about these new laws."
Yet, it is the responsibility of the business to know what the laws are in order to operate, so, if they choose to close their business, they can blame themselves. I only see Businesses that pander to the 'Illegal' crowd as going out of business, since most of the 'Illegals' are already leaving the state.
Richardson's article is almost 1 yr. old, I would rather hear what he has to say about the failing of the virtual fence, and how he would secure the border now.
I find it amusing how you blame Napolitano for the policy, you obviously didn't understand what brought it about and how the States Legislatures had a back up policy that was even more against 'Illegal Immigrants' that was passed, she signed the lesser of the 2 evils, your blame of her is unfounded, do some research.
Why have you failed to mention the Oklahoma laws and the 'Illegal' that are fleeing there?
I see another option, LEAVE ARIZONA AND GOTO DEE'S HOUSE WHERE SHE WILL GIVE YOU A JOB MOWING HER LAWN, CLEANING HER HOUSE, FEEDING YOU, SUPPORTING YOU, GIVING YOU MEDICAL CARE, ETC, ETC, ETC....
Pat, I posted much of this information from the url I posted. (see Links in my blog). This is not me, rather this is what AZ is doing. They have this pilot. AZ is performing these BPP checks.
My blog was does have a grain of cynicism, but I am advocating and supporting AZ´s move to deploy these extremely restrictive and punishing employer sanctions.
I am 100% in support of these employer punishments being enforced. Make no mistake about it.
I have advocated for months that we have 1 state deploy severe methods and we put in place the ANTI idealic environment all the ANTIs are advocating. I want to see if it will be as successful as you think it will be.
There is no hysteria here my friend. I am merely advocating that ANTIs get there wish in one state. If all of your recommendations are valid, then once they come to fruition, your anticipated positive outcome will occur.
AZ will serve as our control study. IF successful, these plans can roll out to the rest of the country.
Liquid, I am not blaming anyone.
I am advocating AZ be our test bed. If it works in AZ, then so goes the rest of the country.
It looks like the AZ Gov is advocating her state be a control study. I am in full support.
Let´s let it happen and the country will see the results.
Liquid, As I said, "I am personally asking all illegal immigrants to LEAVE ARIZONA as soon as possible. Start packing today and leave now.If possible, you may want to return to your country of origin. If it is not possible, then move to New Mexico."
Don´t spin it into anything else.
I am advocating this control study in AZ.
Will the MM´s be willing to devote their time and energy building the AZ-MX wall? I think this is a good idea. Rather than patrol the border in their pickup trucks, let them build the wall. Stretch it across the entire border. Since they are spending much of their time there, they should be willing to devote and donate their time to building the wall. Schwilke, Simcox, Gilchrest, Tancredo, Dobbs, William, Duke, and all of their followers, should get bricks and mortar in hand and start building.
Sounds like a very good first step.
I detected a lot of venom in your original post, dee and I don't think I am off target on that.
As far as the MM building the fence, I am not sure they have the know how to do it. If we are going to construct a fence to help us ensure a secure border, I don't think we want amateurs to do it. Besides, who is going to spot illegals and report them to the BP if they are busy building a fence? That is what they are there for. I doubt that our government is foolish enough to put out billions of dollars for a fence built by those not skilled in that area. We as taxpayers should expect a professional job for our tax dollars.
Pat, As I said, I want to see the firm measures put in place in AZ.
This will be a first step. Then we can see if these measures work.
We can study the impact on the economy, on the workforce, etc.
Keep in mind there are other factors playing into this as well, construction is dying out due to the housing bubble bursting, how are you going to single out the impact of just the 'Illegals'? I would suggest that you also look to Oklahoma and the outcome of the 'Illegals' leaving there, and possibly include s. Florida.
Please show me where I am spinning anything at all? I am just questioning some of your statements and pointing out some of your in accurate facts.
Liquid, I agree we should look at all states that roll out these new laws with severe employer sanctions. We already see what is happening with illegal immigrants being exploited and sent to Canada.
Maybe we should track and report on what is happening in all three states.
Why not also keep track of what is happening in Sanctuary Cities? Is crime going up?, Health care rising? Long waits in emergency rooms? unemployment? etc...
This way we could also see the impacts of 'Illegals' on a city.
Well Liquid, the spin came when you advocated they come to my house vs returning home or move to a state that would welcome them so they could find work and a place to live.
Just having fun, was thinking you could start a new country on your 10,000 square foot lot in Dallas, all the 'Illegals' could go there you could name it what ever you wish, you could have your own policies, monies, be your own country. Just tossing around some ideas was all.
Ah, I see now. You have an ulterior motive, dee. You aren't really interested in employer sanctions because that means they would have to fire the illegals on their payrolls. What you really want and hope to see happen is that our economy would fail without the illegals. It is all becoming so clear to me now. No wonder you were complaining about the raids and such and I was puzzled as to why. Well now I know. You only want the employers punished just as long as the illegals get a pass. How devious.
Here is a good link about a Sanctuary City and the costs incurred by the state for 'Illegal Immigrants'
U.S. Rule Limits Emergency Care for Immigrants
Pat, Be honest. Do you really think the 12M will be mass deported? The census bureau says there are only about 6M people in AZ.
If we impose employer sanctions, what will happen in those states? We´ve never had them imposed.
We have to see what would happen. Starting with one state makes so much sense. Then we can see what will happen.
I want our country to succeed. We cannot take steps that would destroy our economy. The way to test this is to see what happens one state at a time. It only makes sense.
There are far too many other factors in any inner city. For one, we have a METH crisis in our country. This severely impacts crime, health care, etc.
Using AZ as a test site makes so much sense. All things being equal, with this bill passed, we can gauge the impacts on the economy of that state vs neighboring states.
I honestly don't care if illegals leaving voluntarily effects our economy or not. We won't go under as a country. We have been through depressions, recessions and market crashes and survived.
I don't think illegals will be mass deported but I think they will leave on their own if there aren't any jobs for them anymore.
Liquid, I have been thinking about your suggestion to track other states and cities and do some type of inverse tracking.
I think we need to stick to AZ results. This will be an ideal Control Study. AZ is similar to other southwestern states.
1. Borders Mexico
2. Minority Majority state
3. Economy similar to nearby states
Now take one factor change:
. Napolitano´s Employer Law
We can take this one issue and do comparitive studies vs other states.
The clock starts ticking when the law goes into effect and begins to be enforced.
We can study everything.
1. Employment Rates (rise in labor shortages?)
2. Effect on Economy, inluding
a. How many businesses go out of business based on enforcement of the law.
b. How many businesses leave the state because of the law.
c. Rise in Prices(due to labor shortages.
d. Decrease in State, National Tax revenues from AZ. (included Sales Tax and Income Tax, SS Tax, etc.)
3. ANTIs predicted improvements:
a. Reduction of educational costs
b. Reduction of medical-hospital costs.
c. Decrease in crime rates
I personally will track this information for AZ vs TX, CA and NM and report it for the 1st quarter of 2008, once the law goes into effect.
Oh, I almost forgot. The most important measure of all:
1. How many illegal immigrants leave the state due to Napolitano´s law.
I couldn't care less about any studies done after the illegals leave. The most important thing will be that we will return to a nation of laws and reclaim our soviergnty as a country. Not to mention less crowded conditons and less demands on our natural resources and social infrastructures. I might not even have to press 1 for English anymore.
Pat, I called my energy company the other day. We had a power outage and I wanted to know if other neighborhoods in my area were impacted. He said he didn´t know. He was not in TX. So I asked him where he was located. He paused, hesitated and finally said Guatemala.
A few months ago, when I was complaining to the bank about a surcharge they were imposing, I asked the representative what state she was in. She was in Canada.
A few years ago, with my previous cell phone carrier, when I was complaining about a charge on my bill, I asked the rep where he was. He was in India.
Many of the tech Help line reps you call for computer help are based in India or Canada.
Much of the development and IT work being performed by our Corporations is outsourced to the Middle East and Europe. Most of the consultants for the major IT Consulting firms are from Europe, Asia and the Middle East.
Outsourcing has more of an impact on middle class income than the 12M here.
We are fortunate that business is thriving and we are not experiencing any labor shortages here. If the middle class were impacted, it would be by all of this outsourcing, not by the 12M here.
I guess you really don´t mind all of this outsourcing since I don´t see you write about it. Out of sight out of mind I guess.
The issue is however, if the 12M leave, who will do the work? Will you go out and pick the crops? Will you go out and do the construction and the building? Most of the rest of us want our children to go to college and have secure careers in business. I don´t know of anyone who inspires to be a crop picker or construction laborer. Who will do this needed work? Not us.
As I have said all along, my view is, most of the 12M have been here from 5 - 20 years and have contributed to our country´s economy. They have been welcomed and hired by business. They may be guilty of a civil violation, but those civil violations have not been enforced. My take is we need to bring them out of the shadows and put them in some type of legal Guest Worker status so that we can easily identify felonious criminals and deport them. We need to secure our borders. I believe in Employer Sanctions. Once we bring them out of the shadows, the Employer Sanctions should be strictly enforced. Without them out of the shadows, we will experience the massive negative impacts to our economy and to our country. That is my prediction. Sad but true.
You want them out of the shadows, but how will you get the criminal element out of the shadows? Just because you grant all 'Illegal Immigrants' worker status, how will you allow the sanctions to be enforced? Whats wrong with enforcing them first? Whats wrong with how they are enforced now? Business welcomes them because they work for a fraction of the cost of a citizen, don't require any benefits, seems to be a very good deal for the business owner, doesn't it!! There is absolutely NO economics report specifically showing that 'Illegal Immigrants' are beneficial to our economy, every report out there lumps them in with "legal Immigrants'. 3% of the workforce is what the 'Illegals' are, thats at 8M 'Illegal' workers, I think its closer to 7M since there are quite a few that are day laborers and those that are to old to work, how is <3% of the workforce contributing enough significantly to make a difference?
Liquid, I started my tracking spreadsheet. I will be tracking AZ stats when the law goes into effect starting in Jan.
Tracking Dates: Monthly, 2008
Tracking States: AZ, TX, NM, CA
1. Employment Rates
(rise in labor shortages?)
2. Effect on Economy, including
a. How many businesses go out of business based on enforcement of the law.
b. How many businesses leave the state because of the law.
c. Rise in Prices (due to labor shortages)
d. Decrease in State, National Tax revenues from AZ. (included Sales Tax and Income Tax, SS Tax, etc.)
3. ANTIs predicted improvements:
a. Reduction of educational costs
b. Reduction of medical-hospital costs.
c. Decrease in crime rates
4. AZ Reduction of Illegal Immigrants
a.Number of Illegal Immigrants
I will also be tracking news stories. I will post them on one of my other blogs. Maybe Book 2.
Out of the Shadows = Registration Process in a given time period. That will allow all that are working and contributing to register for some type of Guest Worker program. Once that is accomplished (let´s say 3 months) continue with strict enforcement (as in AZ). AZ should do this in coordination with their enforcement policies and ensure all that register recieve the secure BPP IDs. This will alleviate their worker shortages and be a boon to business.
Then, all who do not register or who do not have these ids should be removed and deported from the workplace.
Anyone without a valid ID or BPP will be sent to country of origin.
This would work. I am sure of it.
Of course the criminal element would not register.
Also, when they non criminals register, they do provide employer documentation and work history.
AZ could start the registration process now, Oct - Dec and still proceed with their plan for workplace enforcement in Jan. 2008.
Without this first step, AZ will find themselves with severe labor shortages.
Out of the shadows? How many 'Illegals' are already in the system, i.e. have already begun to try to process through ICE? Why couldn't that already be used instead of a 3 month reg. process. All those that have already processed and were denied should be removed immediately. Those that are in the process and have not yet been turned down, should have a response within 30 days, if turned down, should, be removed ASAP.
Employer documentation issued by the 'immigrant' can be too easily forged, and taking their word for it, doesn't quite mean anything. What documents are going to be required for 'Proof' and how are they going to be guaranteed to not be forged?
The Arizona Republic
The business community and others supporters of a liberal immigration policy say that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans won't do. Without the illegal immigrants, they contend, the United States would be facing chronic labor shortages.
A stagnant or declining price of something is not an indication of a shortage of it.
Contrary to the contention of immigration liberals, in almost all cases illegal immigrants do compete with native-born workers.
Agriculture is the only industry that might truly be able to make the claim of chronic labor shortages if illegal immigration were brought to a halt. Yet even there, wage trends suggest a degree of skepticism.
In construction, it's clear that illegal immigration is displacing legal workers and depressing wages. Construction used to be one of the bridges to the middle class for native workers who didn't go on to college. Illegal immigration has washed away the bridge.
The key is the policy regarding future immigration levels. The business community and others argue that the United States needs a continuous large volume of imported production workers.
Wage trends, illustrated most persuasively by what's happening in the construction industry, argue otherwise.
Robert Robb
Mar. 14, 2007
Your claim of 'Severe Labor Shortages' are going to be mostly from farmers, what are we to do since most 'Illegals' don't want to do the job anymore? What is your proposal to solve the issue? The housing market in AZ has declined by over 30% and is continuing to decrease, there are already more homes on the market then buyers, how much of the forthcoming recession is being factored into your claim of severe labor shortages? What jobs are going to suffer the severe shortages?
Liquid,
The way to get them out of the shadows is with the help of the employers. Once the worker comes forward to his employer, the employer may register them via a Guest Worker program. Once sponsored and registered,they are out in the open. This starts with the employers voluntarily participating in the BPP program. Give employers 3 months to set up the program and the ability to sponsor workers then monitor employees and staffing going forward. This is also part of the process.
This would be a win win for everyone.
Here is how ICE says the BPP program works:
"The Basic Pilot Employment Verification Program is an Internet-based system run by the USCIS in partnership with the Social Security Administration. Currently free to employers and available in all 50 states, the Basic Pilot Employment Verification Program provides an automated link to federal databases to help employers determine the work eligibility of new hires and the validity of their Social Security numbers."
Guest Worker status and employer sponsorship are for specific jobs Liquid.
I know how the BPP program works, I have been using it for the past 3 years. They only need 3 hours to set it up, if that for a small company, maybe a month for large corporations with over 500 employees.
The only employers that will be in need of workers is going to be the farmers. How do you address this as the 'Illegals' aren't even working it anymore?
What if the employees SS# comes back invalid? Shouldn't the employer do as Ultima has suggested, advertise for Citizen workers and show that he has done so before being allowed to sponsor and hire an H visa worker? And with the H visa worker, shouldn't the employer be held accountable for shelter, medical, and transportation to health care as required by the H visa program?
SS and IRS know who are 'Illegal', they just need to share the info with ICE and inform the employer about the invalid SS# to either resolve it by informing the employee, which any citizen could do, or in the case of the 'Illegal' quiting and searching for the next job as they do.
What is the list of specific 'Illegal' jobs?
Liquid, Ultimas suggestion re Job Advertising could be part of the process.
I would like the employers to come forward with the list of jobs. They know them more than I. They know the jobs that go unfilled. We should open up this dialogue and open up the dialogue to employer sponsorship, registration and Guest status. Let´s bring it all out in the open and out of the shadows. Enforcement will go hand in hand with this and we can start it in AZ.
Employment Eligibility Verification
Bottom of page gets you started by answering questions. It moves you through very well, and in the end, after having used it now for 3 years, my company has had no false or invalid SS#'s.
dee, of course I don't like outsourcing but this blog is about illegal immigration. Both things are impacting U.S. jobs.
Who will do the work if the illegals leave? Who do you think did it before they arrived? The only jobs that might go unfilled are ag jobs and for that we can import more temporary legal labor or mechanize more.
I already told you that not everyone wants to be a white collar worker. We have always had blue collar workers in this country. Some people like manual labor and construction jobs used to pay a liveable wage. Why do you repeat yourself so much when your questions have already been answered before?
Pat, In response to your question, "Who do you think did it before they arrived?"
They did. Migrant labor from Latin America has been going on since the 1800s. This was particularly evident in the Immigration Act of 1924 and has gone on to this day.
All one has to do is study history to know the truth.
So what if there was some migrant labor that did some of these jobs in the old days. Most of it was done by Americans though and will again once the illegals leave.
Most of this migrant labor you speak about years ago, were mostly crop pickers. Very few ventured beyond that especially if they were here illegally.
But in the past 20 years or so, they found they could make more money doing construction jobs and other manual labor jobs and many employers were greedy as they knew they could hire them at half the price rather than hiring Americans. And so the saga continues. No labor shortage, just greed and unlawfullness.
A little off the topic but I wanted to get this into the picture before it is too late.
Everyone, especially the naysayers regarding a stable population like Bob Schmidt, should be watching the NBC Nightly News which is beginning a series on water. The one tonight was about the grossly polluted Ganges River in India which people bath in and drink from in spite of the fact that it is highly toxic. The reason for this behavior is religious but the pollution is a direct function of the population, too many people in too small a space.
Someone has to leave. Not only is there limited water in Arizona (and New Mexico, Texas, etc) but the aquifers are on the verge of collapse. Water is going to get expensive for anyone who doesn't have a reliable private well.
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