Hispanics want Blunt aide fired for remark
Martin´s Remark: "I'll tell you what's available, is every frigging developer can figure out who is illegal, and when he says — like he told them — there's a bunch of Mexicans out there, I guess some of them are probably not legal"
Hispanic Citizen Response: "Martin's comment showed a "xenophobic mentality" that results in racial profiling."
Commision Liaison Torres´ letter to Gov Blunt, "deeply offended by Martin's remark."I am the proud grandson of Mexican immigrants who came to this country to provide a better life for their family and unlimited opportunities for their grandchildren and great-grandchildren," Torres wrote to Blunt. He said his family served the country during World War II and the Korean War. He asked that Martin issue a public apology."
My response: Calling Hispanic citizens "a bunch of Mexicans" certainly sounds like racial profiling to me. Martin should apologize! It is clear Blunt is using this issue to gain votes by any means necessary. The ANTI sites are already cheering Martin. Shameful!
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173 comments:
Read the article more carefully. Many if not most Hispanics in this country are of Mexican heritage and he said, "I GUESS some of them are probably not legal." Where is the falsehood there or racial profiling? Mexican isn't a race anyway.
There is a very good article on this very subject Dee, over at hispanicpundit, titled 'The Difference Between Statistical Discrimination And Racism' follow the 2 links in the article. What you are describing in your article is more statistical differentiation.
"If you do not have detailed information on an individual, it is rational to evaluate them on group averages. If you are walking down a dark street at night, and a small, elderly female approaches from the other side, you would feel safe because small elderly females are statistically non-criminal. On the other hand, if a large, young man approaches, you might be more worried. If the man is black, given higher crime rates among blacks, you may be more concerned still.
Judging people on group averages when you have no additional information is called “statistical discrimination”, although given how loaded a term “discrimination” is a better phrase may be “statistical differentiation”. Statistical differentiation is not racist in that it is not a preference for one race or another, it is simply a decision based on group averages when individual information is not available." taken from Hispanicpundit - Statistical Discrimnation headline 02/09/06
Here is where you both are missing it.
Martin, looking at a group of Hispanic Citizens called them "a bunch of Mexicans." They are neither Mexican nor a bunch. They are a group of Citizens. They are Americans. Americans. Americans.
Their Ethnicity may be Hispanic, or skin color may be brown, but he should not be calling them "a bunch of Mexicans." This is called Racial Profiling.
Speaking of reference articles Liquid, a Harvard co-president said the following: Immigration Reform Is Hijacked by Xenophobia
In this article, the author says:
How could a bill with such promise have been killed so quickly?
"Anti-immigrant politicians and activists immediately responded to the bill's introduction with a knee-jerk reaction against any kind of legalization-or, as they would call it, "amnesty"- for illegal immigrants. They used inflammatory rhetoric to incite an emotional response against the bill: the "illegals" were "invading" our country to take "American jobs." Anti-immigrant groups quickly mobilized to bombard Senators with phone calls and letters in opposition to the bill. As a result, the strident voice of the anti-immigrant minority drowned out the voices of the more pragmatic and tolerant but politically inactive majority."
Nothing but difference of opinion, yours verse mine. You see the glass half full, I see the glass half empty.
The argument for 'Racial Profiling' is always from the so called victim, while the argument for 'Statistical Differentiation' is always from the accused.
Dee said
"They are a group of citizens. They are Americans. Americans. Americans."
How do you know that those people are citizens? How do you know they are Americans? Sounds to me like you are doing the profiling.
anon1
Pete Ramsel, executive director of the Housing Development Commission, said he didn't hear Martin make the remark. Later, when he reviewed the transcript, Ramsel said he found nothing offensive because "Martin was simply quoting a statement a developer had made at a previous meeting."
The paragraph after your accusation, Dee.
Note - Martin was simply quoting a statement a developer had made at a previous meeting.
Yet he is being held accountable for the developers remark by Dee. Read the entire article, this is clearly statistical differentiation. Dee, the victim, sees it as racism, and one wonders why we can not move on.
Wait, how was it determined that these Hispanics were either citizens or illegals? What was stated and I will repeat it again because you chose to ignore it dee, is "I GUESS that some of them are probably illegal. As far as the Mexican part goes, I will repeat yet again for you, whether they were citizens or illegals both groups are mostly comprised of those of Mexican ancestry or Mexican nationals. It can't be racial profiling anyway because Mexican isn't a race.
You are lying when you use the term anti-immigrant. Those in congress who didn't want amnesty for illegals are not anti-immigrant and neither are those of us you choose to call anti's. Debate honestly, please.
This is a good discussion. You all are proving exactly what I have been saying all along.
How do I know you are an American Liquid, or Pat, or anon1? Because you say so? What if I come up to you and ask you for your passport and if don´t give it to me, I take you down to ICE and start processing deportation.
We have 50M Americans who are Hispanic in this country. You are going to say to us, "How do I know you are American?" It is ok for you to say or repeat (with fists pounding as reported by someone sitting across from Martin) "bunch of Mexicans".
This is the core issue. Racial Profiling and demonizing an entire group of people.
This is as clear as the nose on your face. Racial Profiling!
And exactly why can you rationally say "I GUESS that some of them are probably illegal." That is the most ludicrous, Racial Profiling statement I have ever heard. "Bunch of Mexicans." "Probably Illegal."
I remember my last family reunion at a park. All citizens, yet you would all say, "Bunch of Mexicans." "Probably Illegal."
Just Deplorable!!
So now everyone is racial profiling against Hispanics? Even those of us in this group that you don't even know? You are putting words in our mouths, none of us in here have said any of the things that you are accusing us of nor would we.
If law enforcement including ICE wants to question my citizenhip in this country, let them do so. I have no fear of that because I have authentic I.D. and an authentic birth certificate.
The American woman who was Hispanic in Dallas showed her drivers license and birth certificate. It didn´t matter. They wanted her passport or she was going to a Detention center. They kept her for over 24 hours.
I am a citizen and I believe the vast majority of citizens in our USA do not carry a passport. Will they all be detained by ICE? Are you willing to go?
As I said Pat, I believe this is a good discussion. It goes to the heart of the issue. Why do people condone this guy using these terms?
Is this Dallas woman the same woman who had many unpaid traffic tickets and was the case of mistaken identity that we have already hashed over and over in another topic? You never let a sleeping dog lay, do you?
Yeah right, every Hispanic citizen in America is going to be detained by ICE if they don't have a passport. You really get carried away don't you?
Pat, when a Gov. who is running for re election puts in place strict enforcement and his right hand man says if an employer has "A bunch of Mexicans" working for him then "some of them have to be illegal" advocating sweeps, and everything that goes with strict enforcement -- this demonizing all of the 50M Americans with Hispanic ethnicity in this country because they will live in fear of racial profiling.
I suppose you all want us to give in to this terrorization and all go out and get a passport even though all 50M of us have no plans to leave our USA any time soon.
If it comes down to that, I suggest you go get your passport too because if I gotta do it, you do too. It is only fair.
And secondly, when he fist pounds and repeats statements as he did, and he says "bunch of Mexicans" when they are brown, Hispanic citizens, he should apologize IMMEDIATELY or resign!!
How do you know that they are citizens dee? By their looks?
anon1
Here's a great quote - "If you really want to improve your group's image, telling other groups to stop stereotyping won't work. The stereotype is based on the underlying distribution of fact. It is far more realistic to turn your complaining inward, and pressure the bad apples in your group to stop pulling down the average."
Should work for the 'Illegal Immigrants' and their supporters. Try it out Dee, see if it works. ;-}
good thought liquid!
anon1
The Gov's right hand man as you call him Dee, was simply re-stating what was said at an earlier meeting by a contractor on the site, however I find it funny how Torres calls it "a table-thumping tirade."
Nothing like making a mountain out of a mole hill. I find it even funnier how you call your blog Immigration talk with a Mexican American, but condemn Martin calling them Mexican?
According to your Harvard article, I see you condone exploitation of a minority workforce, and if anybody disagrees in the slightest way, they are labeled as xenophobic. He bases it all on his opinion, for which you latch a hold of and follow. to each their own.
Dee said
"They are a group of citizens. They are Americans. Americans. Americans." And you know this how? Unless they are questioned, how can you be sure?
How do you know that I am a citizen... I have a passport, birth certificate, drivers license, military DD214, high school diploma, over 20 years of filed 1040 forms with IRS, etc.... any of which I can produce inside of 2 minutes. If I am detained and questioned, my wife, who by the way is a 'LEGAL' immigrant with a valid Green Card, knows where all of my documents are. The question could also be asked of you? How do we know that you are a 'Citizen' and not some 'Illegal Immigrant', don't you just love the invisibility of the internet.
Dee said:
"And exactly why can you rationally say "I GUESS that some of them are probably illegal." That is the most ludicrous, Racial Profiling statement I have ever heard. "Bunch of Mexicans." "Probably Illegal."
Because do to statistics and the majority of 'Illegal Immigrants' in the USA being from Mexico. Now I go back to Statistical Differentiation - "If you really want to improve your group's image, telling other groups to stop stereotyping won't work. The stereotype is based on the underlying distribution of fact. It is far more realistic to turn your complaining inward, and pressure the bad apples in your group to stop pulling down the average."
Anon1, Exactly my point. How do you know anyone is a citizen. If we get to a point where we doubt anyone, then we need to impose the same rules for everyone.
IF ICE wants to start stopping anyone in this country and ask for ID, then they need to ask you or me equally for our passports.
I guess you are saying ALL of us need to get our passports in order.
Oh yes, Liquid. If it works in this case, it should work in all cases.
As you say: "If you really want to improve your group's image, telling other groups to stop stereotyping won't work. The stereotype is based on the underlying distribution of fact. It is far more realistic to turn your complaining inward, and pressure the bad apples in your group to stop pulling down the average."
So let´s start with pedophiles. The majority profiles of all pedophiles is white male. Let´s stop ALL white males and include them in the profile database.
Let´s try another; Child Predators.
The majority profiles of all pedophiles is white male. Let´s stop ALL white males and include them in the profile database.
Civil Rights? Who cares. Let´s do this across the board. Is that your recommendation Liquid?
Let´s not forget Seriel Killers. You know. BTK, Dahmer, Bundy. Gacy.
The majority profiles of all serial killers are white male. Let´s stop ALL white males and include them in the profile database.
Remember, I am not advocating this, you are.
If I fit the description of a person being sought by law enforcement and I am detained, then if I can prove my innocence by simply biding my time, then so be it, it happens in fact quite frequently to many white citizens. The police have the right to detain a person for any reason and hold them for an amount of time before filing charges, at which point if no charges are filed the person goes free, now if files are charged then it is the responsibility of the person to prove his innocence, what makes your story any different?
Ok Liquid. Let´s say I am a cop. I stop you because you are speeding. In 2 mins I want your passport, birth certificat, etc.
Show me now, you have 2 mins, otherwise I am carting your axx to a dentention center.
You ready? Go!!
Again all of your points are statistical profiles, thus statistical differentiation. This is fine by me.
Here it is>>>>>>>>>
Now if I am in a detention center, my wife would be bringing anything I did not have with me at the time to prove my citizenship. Again biding my time... once the documentation is received by the ICE, I would be released, no problems or faults.
It is only an inconvenience for me.
As long as the inconvenience is received EQUALLY by ALL and not just brown Americans who are Hispanics.
Get your passports ready.
No more Racial Profiling.
This is your doing, ANTIs, not mine!!
This includes your mom, grandma, my mom, everyone´s relatives, everyone!!
Now since you claim to be A CITIZEN, lets say ICE detains you on suspicion of being an 'Illegal Immigrant' what do you plan to do? File a lawsuit? or prove your citizenship and move on with your life?
You fail to understand that law enforcement has the ability to arrest anybody on any grounds that they feel at any time, it is up to there discretion, if they think you are breaking the law, that means you, me, your mother my family members, anybody, they have that right given to them, why do you think there are trials by a jury of your peers? Do some research into law enforcement and arrests.
In order to arrest a person, a law enforcement officer needs probable cause to believe the suspect committed a crime. Often, though, law enforcement officers have some information that a suspect is engaged in criminal conduct but not enough proof to make an immediate arrest. The law recognizes that this is a common situation, and allows law enforcement officers to stop and detain a suspect where the officers have REASONABLE SUSPICION to believe that the suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. The authority to stop and detain is thus based on less evidence of criminal activity then that needed to make an arrest.
The law also allows law enforcement officers to frisk (pat down the outer clothing) a suspect detained at the reasonable suspicion level if either:
1. The suspect says or does anything which puts you in fear for your safety (threatens you, appears very nervous, makes a furtive gesture as if to hide a weapon, etc); or
2. You are investigating a serious crime where it is safe to assume automatically that the suspect is dangerous (for example, persons stopped for drug dealing, murder, kidnapping, serious assault and the like).
Law enforcement officers should note three points. First, you have the right to approach anyone in public and talk to them, but you only have the right to detain a person if you have a REASONABLE SUSPICION to believe that the person has or is committing a crime. Secondly, the right to stop does not automatically give the officer the right to frisk. The frisk authority is present where the officer can articulate actual or “automatic” fear as described in “1" and “2" above. Thirdly, a stop based on less than reasonable suspicion is an illegal seizure within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment and any contraband discovered after the illegal stop may not be used in court (this is known as the suppression, or “fruit of the poisonous tree,” doctrine.)
So you see REASONABLE SUSPICION could also be equated to statistical differentiation based on the fact that most 'Illegal Immigrants' are Hispanic/Latino/Mexican in this particular story that you bring up.
As long as they arrest you as often as they arrest me, it is not racial profiling.
Get your passport ready.
and
Take your shoes off. We don´t want any shoe bombs!!
What´s the matter Liquid? Too much of an inconvenience for you but it is not for me because I have brown skin?
Come on. Be a true Patriot. Get your mom´s passport ready!!
Actually Dee, my mother right now has her passport and is outside of the country, visiting the world. Re-read what I wrote, you missed where I stated 'my family' after I stated your mother.
What if they arrest me more than they do you, as I have already had this happen to me, as a robbery suspect, my car and white male in his 30's with brown hair, fit the description. Like I said an inconvenience for me. Have they arrested you for being Mexican yet?
I see Dee that you want equality for everyone.... that implies a socialist view, are you a socialist?
Dee said - Speaking of reference articles Liquid, a Harvard co-president said the following...
You lead us to believe that this is from a co-president of Harvard University... how misleading... this is from - "Meghan Maloney, 2L, is co-president of the Harvard Immigration Project."
A STUDENT. You give this crap opinion from a student? My Dee, your research really is becoming very telling of you.
dee, I don't understand what your concerns and complaints are. Since most illegals are Mexicans it only makes sense that Hispanics would be suspect. It only makes sense that they would be questioned. ICE has no idea who is a Hispanic citizen and who is a Mexican illegal. How else are they going to find out unless they question all of them? As long as a Hispanic citizen can prove who they are, what is your gripe? I think you are tying to play victim here because you don't really want these illegals deported so you make up every excuse in the book, including racial profiling.
Is it racial profing when a white male has committed a crime and therefore all white males in the area are questioned? Of course not!
You are really being ridiculous, dee. Why do you bring up skin color? Playing the victim again? There is no need to describe a white person as having white skin nor is there any reason to describe a black person as having black skin and there is no reason to mention the skin color of a Hispanic as having brown skin either. You have an ulterior motive and it is the race card everytime.
Why in the world would a U.S. citizen need a passport? All they have to do is provide a valid DL and/or birth certificate. Have you gone off your rocker over this?
I'll tell you what if the law is looking for a white male, or a white elderly lady, or a white middle aged woman and they interogate me, my grandmother or my wife, we will fully cooperate, won't complain and provide legal documents to clear ourselves. I wouldn't call it racial profiling either.
Liquid, Here is where you are missing it. Martin, in his quest to support his boss the Gov up for election, pounds the table and repeats, "bunch of Mexicans" "probably illegal" in the discussion to conduct sweeps. This is pure racial profiling. What is the crime? Breathing and being brown? No crime. This is America.
That would be like what happened in Boston when the murderer Stuart killed his wife and said a black guy did it. They racially profiled all the African American neighborhoods, looking for the generic "black guy" Stuart referenced.
You know what you don´t see? In their quest for BTK, they did not canvass the Anglo neighborhoods looking for a middle aged middle aged "white guy."
Pat, Did you not read Martin´s comment? Drive by and see a "bunch of Mexicans?" He is basing this on skin color. What other criteria do YOU think he is using??
Dee says: Martin, in his quest to support his boss the Gov up for election, pounds the table and repeats, "bunch of Mexicans" "probably illegal" in the discussion to conduct sweeps.
Please Dee show me that phrase in the article!!!
The only person referencing a table is Torres and he states "table-thumping tirade." Yet you keep repeating something that is not there with your "pounds the table and repeats", why is it you embellish the part of Torres and the group of Hispanics in question?
Mountain and mole hill, keep embellishing Dee, you look the fool.
With 18.6% of the 51M Hispanic decent peoples in the USA, that makes 1 in 5 possible 'Illegal Immigrants' does it not? So the probability of a group of Hispanic workers, group being about 5 or more, it is possible that at least 1 may be an 'Illegal' according to statistics. Thus your article talks of statistical differentiation, not racial profiling. Thus I repeat - If you do not have detailed information on an individual, it is rational to evaluate them on group averages.
With 18.6% of the 51M Hispanic decent peoples in the USA
This should actually read as - With 18.6% of the Hispanic descent peoples in the USA being 'Illegally', that makes 1 in 5 Hispanic descent peoples a possible 'Illegal Immigrant' does it not?
Dee says: Martin, in his quest to support his boss the Gov up for election, pounds the table and repeats, "bunch of Mexicans" "probably illegal" in the discussion to conduct sweeps.
Here is an additional link to this same story. This from the Missouri Democratic Party - Groups want Blunt chief fired for remark about Mexican workers, nowhere does it state by Torres' "table-thumping tirade", it states he took offense at Martin’s "inflammatory comment". You would think the Dem. Party would be running the story on their site with the overly descriptive verbiage of "table-thumping tirade" to get their message across, but they are not.
In this article Missouri says worker who left wasn’t fired 2 witnesses state Martin was paraphrasing what was said by the developer. "According to Bob Lowery, the O’Fallon city administrator who attended the meeting with the developer, Martin’s use of the words “bunch of Mexicans” precisely mirrored those of the developer’s. O’Fallon’s mayor, Donna Morrow, also was at the meeting and confirmed that Martin’s paraphrasing was accurate."
Now 'table-thumping tirade' seems to be a bit exaggerated for someone that has 2 witnesses stating that Martin was doing nothing more than paraphrasing, don't you think?
dee, you keep going off the deep end on this. Since the BTK killer was white and if the police had his discription, do you not think that they questioned all white males that could be connected to the crime? Of course they did! I am sure they didn't question and Hispanics or Blacks about it.
You lie about your own article. Martin didn't say "all" these Mexicans/Hispanics were probably illegal, he said I GUESS "some" of them probabaly are. Who cares if he thumped the table? It is irrevelant. He was expressing an emotion of frustration over illegal immigration. I see nothing offensive about his remark, "bunch of Mexicans", he was referring only to those that would be illegals because Hispanic citizens are not Mexicans. You are taking his remark far too literally but when one wants play the race card that is what one does.
dee, there is other criteria that fits the Hispanic look and it isn't just skin color. There are many brown skinned whites, light skinned Hispanics and even light skinned Blacks. You dwell way too much on skin color. Are you sensitive about yours?
Liquid,
Resorting to name calling? Calling me a fool does not change the fact that you have lost this argument. Please go back to debating.
Actually, I am glad this discussion came up. This is the very heart of the issue that is stirring up the 50M Americans with Hispanic ethnicity. Racial Profiling.
Liquid, Your math is totally inaccurate. We do have 50M CITIZENS who are Hispanic ethnicity. However your 18.6% is totally ludicrous. You may want to brush up on math.
Let´s speak facts. According to this article, The typical Internet predator is a middle class, white male, age 35-55, who is married and has children. These are Felonious Criminals, not civil violations. These folks are harming children. Talk about the rule of law.
If we follow YOUR argument, we should target all white middle aged males. Let´s follow Martin´s theory. A bunch of white middle aged males work in several buildings across the US. Let´s target them. Bring them all down town. They shouldn´t mind their civil liberties being violated anymore than the American Hispanic construction workers whose civil rights you want to violate.
I am not advocating this, but you are.
You know Dee, you are quick to judge yourself as the winner in an argument, must be some issue you had while younger, now if you would review all of the documentation presented, you might consider that there were 2 city officials backing Martin against Torres. Torres or the op-ed writer, one of the two seriously embellished with 'table-thumping tirade', Hell the Missouri Dem. Party doesn't even run the embellished article on their web site and they are out for Blunts head.
Your other lacking credibility is the paper issued by a 2L (second year) law student, with you claiming it to be from a co-president of Harvard University.
Like I said, you look the fool.
I have provided more than enough documentation to discredit anything that you have shown, you have not responded to any of it with other then your same rhetoric.
Here is the article
The typical Internet predator is a middle class, white male, age 35-55, who is married and has children.
There are 43M Hispanic descent citizens in the USA + 8.3M 'Illegal' Hispanic Descent peoples. You do the math, you will find I am pretty darn close to actual percentage, you can deny all you want.
The internet is already watched, pedophiles are already being caught, don't you watch 'To Catch a Predator', they get quite a few, some are even repeat catches. The internet keeps track of computer web sites and the IP address' that visit that site, which can then be tracked back through the provider to the home in which the computer is located.
Now please come up with something better.
Why do you automatically ASSUME Torres or the journalist "embellished". How telling of your perspecive, Liquid. Careful, you are exposing yourself here.
Torres was sitting directly across from the fist pounding Martin. No one is disputing what he said. No one has said the word "embellish" but you. None of the participants, not the "up for election" Gov. Not even the thumping Marti. No one. Just you. How telling!
Actually its 44M according to the Hispanic/Latino total population 2006
How do you assume that they didn't? There were 2 city officials witnessed to the event, nothing about 'table-thumping tirade' mentioned by them, they in fact agreed with Martin.
I also find the fact the the incident occurred Aug. 17, Torres didn't do anything until Sept. 5 when he decided to write a letter in protest and resignation. Why the long delay? Why didn't he write the protest letter the same day? Why didn't he raise his claims at the point of time that Martin was paraphrasing the developer?
Can you answer for Torres?
Actually, the number of American Hispanic citizens is 44.3M. This does not take into consideration children of people who mark Hispanic, including my children who do not mark Hispanic ethnicity on the census form. Add another 30 M. (still fit the profile that Martin is thumping about). That is 75M.
If you estimate 60% of the 12M are from Mexico. Remember, people from Mexico are many colors and are not the brown "bunch of MX" that Martin refers to. So this number may be 4M.
Take this 4M divided by 75M and you have 5%.
Now let´s go back to Child Predators. The article says "The typical Internet predator is a middle class, white male, age 35-55, who is married and has children." Wow!! These are felonious criminals after our children, not a civil violation. Seems like if we were actually concerned with the rule of law and our children´s safety, we should target these felonious child abusers. Do you fit the profile? You won´t mind your civil liberties being violated if we arrest a few child predators.
This is what you are advocating, not me.
You have a reading disability, re-read what I stated. Your numbers are extremely skewed and embellished. You obviously did not read anything about the census. Children are included into the census numbers, its done by household. Your number might be closer to 50M with those that choose not to mark Hispanic, still that is much closer to the 18% then your 5%. Even in the middle as an average its 12%, so again based on statistics, a group of Hispanics could have at least some 'Illegal Immigrants' within its group.
The problem is Racial Profiling is wrong, for ANYONE. Even you, dear Liquid. I don´t advocate the cops going after you or anyone who fits your profile.
Just like I do not want to see "Operation Wetback" all over again. When I go to my family reunion in a few weeks, I do not want Martin or his ilk saying "Look, a bunch of Mexicans. A few must be illegal. Lets arrest them and get their passports."
Dee asks: Do you fit the profile? You won´t mind your civil liberties being violated if we arrest a few child predators.
This is what you are advocating, not me.
Why would my civil liberties be violated if I fit the profile? I already stated they know what sites everybody visits based on your computers IP address, I don't have any fears about anything, because I don't search those topics, nor do I visit those sites. Also you have not seen me on 'To Catch a Predator'.
I will ask you again... Have you been arrested for being Mexican yet?
Wrong again Liquid. Please study the census rules. The census study involves those in the household. My sons are old enough to have their own households.
Liquid, you still are missing it.
Racial profiling has nothing to do with logic. So your example of your IP History has Nothing to do with it. Read again:
"The typical Internet predator is a middle class, white male, age 35-55, who is married and has children."
YOU FIT THE PROFILE BECAUSE YOU ARE A WHITE MALE.
Just like Blunt repeated, "bunch of Mexicans."
Do you get it now? Is it sinking in?
Racial Profiling makes NO SENSE and Violates citizens civil liberties.
My god Dee, you must be dense.... Your obsession with trying to win in argument is childish, all you have done is spun what I said about children. Grow up!!
Re-read what I have stated, NO where have I denied about not fitting your predator profile, I simply stated I have no fears of it.
This is statistical profiling not racial profiling, its all based on statistics of a group.
Your problem, Liquid, is you are not seeing the forest for the trees.
The people Martin was referring to were not a bunch of anything. They were people.
There were not Mexicans, they were Americans.
According to the census bureau, we have 43.3M American citizens who are HISPANIC. WHEN oh WHEN are you going to STOP calling us MEXICAN.
I have been asking that question since I was 5 years old!!!
MARTIN just did it. YOU have to STOP IT!!! Once and for all!!
WE ARE AMERICANS and we will NOT allow YOU to Violate our Civil Liberties.
WE ARE AMERICANS and that is why you keep LOSING this argument because MARTIN and so many like him REFUSE to acknowledge their errors!!
From my book
Once, Helen took me to the bathroom and tried to help me scrub my skin. “I just know that brown will come right off. I get dirty myself and all the brown comes off.”
Helen was trying to help me but she just didn’t understand the color stuck.
When I came home from Kindergarten that day, Mom saw my arms were red and raw. She asked, "What happened to your arms?"
"My friend Helen tried to help me wash the brown off, Mama. She said my skin was just dirty and it would come off if I washed it," I answered.
Mom gathered me up in her arms. She said, "The color doesn't come off mija."
"Then why would she say my skin was dirty mama? Why?" I asked, tears rolling down my cheeks.
She hugged me and replied, "They just think it is mijita. But don't worry. God made you this way. God loves you and made you this way. Be proud of who you are."
Though Helen was kind, some of the other kids were not.
When Gloria and I went roller skating in a trendy East Lansing rink someone said, “Oooh, what are you doing in here? MeXX-kins aren’t allowed in this place.”
She hurt my feelings. I cried. Gloria had her arm around me and we skated away.
Afterwards, I went back to Mom.
“But Momma, they call us MeXX-kins,” I pleaded. “Why can´t we be Americans too?” Patiently, she tried to explain, “We are Americans, but they have always called us Mexicans. We have brown skin. We haved lived in the country for hundreds of years. It doesn´t matter what they call us. Never be ashamed of who you are. You are a child of God, made in God´s image and you are an American.”
After that, if anyone teased me, I remembered Mom´s words, “God made you. Be proud of who you are.” I stayed strong and decided not to let their words discourage me. Inside I knew I was American, God made me and I was good.
Liquid, its been a good discussion. It is good to get this very critical issue out in the open.
Maybe we can find a resolution.
I´m going out this afternoon with my husband but I will be back later tonight to discuss.
Then why don't you call them citizens? How could you claim them to be citizens? Americans can be from North or South, how telling of you, word games, why not call them Hispanics, like I have throughout most of this discussion? Why do you keep insisting that Martin was the originator of the claim, he wasn't. He only paraphrased what was said by a developer at an earlier meeting.
You forget I am an Arborist, I work in the forest, I protect the forest, and I know every inch of the forest. Instead of standing outside and looking in , try coming in and looking around, it might get rid of your tunnel vision.
liquid, you have done a terrific job of explaining why profiling of any kind is done by law enforcement. You can't reach dee because she appears to have psychological problems because of her past and she is plainly biased for her own kind.
She calls herself a Mexican American and yet objects to the word Mexican when referring to those who are Hispanic in this country, even though they may be of Mexican ancestry. None of her arguments make any sense. She plainly needs psychological help.
Thanks Pat, she is like the old dog, you can't teach her any new tricks, she is set in her ways.
Here is a good article that explains how she thinks - Shades of Mexican
In Mexico, race is defined by culture and class as much as by DNA, and some Mexican immigrants to the US still cultivate that flexibility.
Hardly shameful. It's a question of: "If the shoe fits, put it on." If it doesn't, then stop worrying. You are indulging in inverse profiling by assuming all Hispanics working on these projects are legal. That's not very likely so let's get on with sorting them out using the ssn and name mismatches to begin the work. Then we can put other credentials under the microscope to detect the fraudulent documents. This is just another case where racial profiling is justified and effective. Why are you taking the side of the illegals rather than being a part of the solution?
"a group of Hispanic Citizens called them "a bunch of Mexicans." They are neither Mexican nor a bunch. They are a group of Citizens."
How would you know they are citizens? You are guilty of a similar faulty idea -- the assumption that they are citizens and that they are not Mexicans.
Bunch: a number of things [or people]of the same kind [or ethnicity,Mexican, Hispanic, illegal?] occurring together [working on the same project or in the same area].
Liquidmicro is right on the money with his comment about statistical differentiation. Thanks micro!
'"Anti-immigrant politicians and activists immediately responded to the bill's introduction with a knee-jerk reaction against any kind of legalization-or, as they would call it, "amnesty"- for illegal immigrants. They used inflammatory rhetoric to incite an emotional response against the bill: the "illegals" were "invading" our country to take "American jobs." Anti-immigrant groups quickly mobilized to bombard Senators with phone calls and letters in opposition to the bill. As a result, the strident voice of the anti-immigrant minority drowned out the voices of the more pragmatic and tolerant but politically inactive majority."
I note that he does not take issue with the veracity of those who communicated with their senators. They stated what they believed and no one can deny them to voice their opinions. The problem with the writer of the above quote has failed to ask himself, "What is the future of this country if we continue to allow millions of people to flaunt our immigration laws and, in the process, raise the number of people living in poverty. He has no vision. Only a misguided and deeply flawed liberal view of what is a very dangerous situation for all of us who would like to preserve America and the quality of life we enjoy. Shame on the writer for his shortsightedness.
Hey Ultima, the author is stating her opinion, whats even funnier is that it was written by a 2nd year law student at Harvard, not what Dee would have us believe if you were to read her description in comment #5 above, stating "a Harvard co-president said the following". Very misleading on her part.
I feel sorry for you Dee. You are no better than those you accuse as ANTIs. You apply the same "racial profiling" to them. I am sure that you have no problem with using the term "Anglo" yet get upset when someone that is not Hispanic uses the term Mexican. Mexican is ok for you to use but not anyone else.
I am a white, male, disabled veteran. I have been stopped and searched for almost every flight that I have taken since 9/11. I spent 22 years and have a disability due to my military service yet I am considered a possible threat to an airline flight?
My wife has been required to provide proof of residency several times since her arrival in the U.S. and she is white.
Your list of serial killers or pedophiles being white, males does allow law enforcement to focus on that portion of the population when investigating a criminal act. So too with murder, where law enforcement will look at close family members or boyfriend/girlfriend first because the statistics state that those types of crime are committed by people of that description. It is as liquid states, statistical differentiation not racial profiling.
If this were not the case then you would be guilty of racial profiling and racism in your rants against the so called ANTIs.
When the profile of a criminal includes racial characteristics, it is not racism to look at people that fit the description. Neither is it racism to state facts when discussing an issue.
It is interesting you choose not to see this issue for what it is. Martin is guilty of Racial Profiling, yet all of you do not see it. Of course none of you are minorities. You sit back and pass judgement. It is you who see nothing at all wrong with calling them a bunch of Mexicans.
For your information, my point is, it is an inaccurate term for Americans. You refuse to call Americans with Hispanic ethnicity "Americans." You are as guilty as Martin. You cannot even see the error in your ways.
Until you stop doing this, you will never, ever have the vast majority of American citizens with Hispanic ethnicity on your side. You demonize us.
They were discussing rigid enforcement of Immigration laws in MO. Gov Blunt who is up for re election is spearheading this to get votes.
Stop calling us "a bunch of Mexicans" and stop thinking we will tolerate your doing this. Stop thinking we will allow you start up "Operation Wetback" all over again. That is what Martin was proposing with his statement.
I am trying to help you understand in this civil discussion.
Our 50M citizens who are Hispanic are AMERICANS and we are not going to tolerate you doing this Racial Profiling to all 50M of us Hispanic citizens.
My suggestion to you, if you truly want to resolve these Immigration issues, if you truly want the rule of law, and you want American citizens of Hispanic ethnicity on our side, then find a way not Racially Profile us.
Look for Solutions!! Not rhetoric!
Additionally, being a Mexican citizen is not a derogatory term. The vast majority of people in Mexico are wonderful people.
The issue is, the 50M Americans here with Hispanic ethnicity are Americans. Americans. Stop calling them "a bunch of Mexicans."
Look who is talking rhetoric.... THINK Dee, your in a forest amongst the trees, look around, take off your blinders.
"On one level, its success underscores how desperate many undocumented immigrants are to legitimize their status in the United States. On another, it is a powerful contemporary example of historical fact: Mexicans long have used and manipulated race to improve their social status.
Unlike in the US, where race is understood as purely biological, in Mexico it's defined by culture and class as much as it is by DNA. An Indian, for example, is not simply someone with Indian blood, but an individual who behaves, dresses, and speaks "like an Indian." Someone of wholly Indian heritage who speaks Spanish and lives according to Hispanic (as opposed to indigenous) customs would be considered mestizo, or mixed. Not surprisingly, when race is a question of culture, it is a fluid and even changeable category."
This is the U.S. of A. Dee, quit thinking like above, loose the hyphenation of your title of this blog, and be just an Citizen of the USA.
Dee says: 'The issue is, the 50M Americans here with Hispanic ethnicity are Americans. Americans. Stop calling them "a bunch of Mexicans."'
The only person here calling them Mexican is YOU!!! Pat and I have both used the term Hispanic group in reference to the topic title. We and others have asked you what proof do you have that they are citizens? You have yet to answer.
Martin was paraphrasing what a developer stated earlier, QUIT acting as if Martin was the originator. Torres took 19 days to write a letter to detest the paraphrasing, Why did he take so long on something that if he was so offended he should have stated at the moment of so called insult?
Here is a case of Racial Profiling you would also call "Statistical Differentiation". It was the case of Charles Stuart who said a black man shot his wife.
Article
The other landmark racial issue in Bostonian history concerned a murder that occurred in the Mission Hill area of Boston in October of 1989. Mission Hill
is probably one of the most racially integrated neighborhoods in boston, that has high rate of drug use and crime. However the nation would become attentive to the area when, Carol Stuart, a pregnant, white lawyer, was
brutally shot in the head. Her wounded husband, Charles, would turn Boston, specifically Mission Hill, into a media circus, when he claimed that the perpetrator had been a black man with a raspy voice. This created a frenzy
of racial tension. The Boston police turned Mission Hill into an armed camp,
they were on a serious manhunt
Al-Mahdi chuckled after impressively reciting an excert the Laurie D.T. Mann
poem. “These cops out here were these heartless and racist little devils-- they harassed every black man too old to ride a tricycle and too young to be in a wheelchair” Al-Mahdi recalled. “It was as if they were looking for some global terrorist” Al-Mahdi had been working with children in the area at the time that the incident took place. Many of the young boys
that he was working with were no older than thirteen and fourteen years old.
“They would come in describing how they were searched the night before on their way home, or how their brothers, fathers and uncles had been searched. The cops would stripped of their clothing and their dignity in the middle of
the streets most of the time. They would practically castrate these men. -- it was degrading to the community.” Al-Mahdi continued, letting out a long sigh, then shook his head.
I tell you what Dee, go up to the left corner of your browser, click the button labeled Edit, go down to 'Find in This Page', go to the bottom of the left corner of your browser, type in the word 'Mexican', click 'Highlight All'. Now come back and tell us who uses the term Mexican throughout this entire discussion, you will find that the person is YOU!!!!! Now who is the real racist?
Racial Profiling during Operation Wetback. Tactics were used similar to what Martin is recommending:
The operation began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1,075 Border Patrol agents along with state and local police agencies to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics. In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification.
What Martin is recommending. However, 50M American citizens who would be terrorized will not allow this to happen again:
"Operation Wetback incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned."
Liquid, Stay in the state of denial if you like. The facts are what Martin is recommending is Racial Profiling and Operation Wetback will not happen again.
Stop supporting him and this process. I have yet to hear you say you object to Operation Wetback and you will NOT support it happening again. Are you willing to say so?
You want to talk racism, lets talk the Duke La Cross team!! Otherwise, start another topic on your blog.
Why did it take Torres 19 days to file a complaint? Why did 2 city officials agree with Martin? Why isn't the Missouri Democratic Parties website linking to the article with Torres comment "table-thumping tirade"? Why are you the person with the most uses of the word Mexican in her answers, acting as if that is what Pat, Ultima, Anon 1, James, and myself are constantly repeating it? Prove the accused group of Hispanic workers ARE citizens!! Prove Martin wrong for paraphrasing what a developer had earlier stated in a prior meeting!! YOU CAN'T!! Yet you accuse all of us as racists remarks!! Prove that police can not detain anybody for any reason, when all they need is REASONABLE SUSPICION!!
Dee say: 'The facts are what Martin is recommending is Racial Profiling and Operation Wetback will not happen again.'
Where is Martin recommending anything?, more embellishment on your behalf.
Martin is proposing Operation Wetback all over again. He is proposing bunches of Mexican looking employees be profiled since he believes there must be an illegal immigrant among them.
What exactly do you think the discussion was all about Liquid? Didn´t you read the article or related articles? Didn´t you read what Gov Blunt (who is up for re election) is proposing? Please study the articles so you understand what they are proposing.
Liquid, If you truly want Americans who are Hispanic on your side re Immigration issues, you have to denounce these Operation Wetback tactics.
There are certain areas/towns in the U.S. that are predominantly of Polish, Italian, German, etc. ancestry. It is not uncommon for they themselves and others, even though they are U.S. born citizens, to be refered to as the Polish, the Italians, the Germans, etc. This has been going on since immigration has begun in this country. It doesn't mean that other Americans don't recognize them as being U.S. citizens and as a matter of fact as I said even they refer to themselves by their ancestry. Doesn't mean a damn thing! They are just terms misconstrued by both sides and no one takes offense at it.
What is clear, if you truly want Americans who are Hispanic on your side re Immigration issues, you have to denounce these Operation Wetback tactics.
So if we enforce our Immigration Laws, Dee considers it Racial Profiling. Then you take from this topic and turn it from Racial Profiling to Gov. Blunt and Operation Wetback, all from a paraphrase that took Torres 19 days to finally complain about what Martin paraphrased. You are all over the board.
Denounce Operation Wetback? Is that what you call it when ICE interogates those who fit the description of most illegals in this country? I don't see any Hispanic citizens being deported, only temporarily detained and questioned and then released when they provide documents. That's the way it works when any crime is being investigated no matter who you are or what the crime is. The only Hispanic citizen that I know of that was deported recently to Mexico was the one who was retarded and told ICE that he was a Mexican. It eventually got resolved.
It wouldn't matter what we do, many Hispanics are illegal sympathizers so they will never be on our side of truth, justice and the American way. They are racially and ethnically biased and there is no hope for them.
So you both are supporting the return of Operation Wetback?
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If you are referring to illegal aliens being deported, yes I support that. It is not called Operation Wetback. Only in your demented mind. Bring yourself up to 2007, that was back in the 50's.
I note that you mentioned that Mexicans and their U.S. born children were deported back then and not adult Hispanic citizens, how misleading of you. What would you rather have happened, the children left here without their parents? You know that family seperation thingy that your kind keep crying about. Those kids could still come back to this country any time they wanted to in their adult age.
Actually I support Operation "Return to Sender", only they aren't returning them postage due, and the taxpayer is stuck with the postage.
The 'Illegals' new that one day there was a chance that they would get caught, everything they did here and/or purchased here could be lost. These are the CHOICES they made by coming here. If they bore children here, ICE does give them the option of taking there children with them, along with the child having the opportunity to get an American passport. Besides, the children bore here are in reality dual citizens according to Mexico, and are welcomed in Mexico ass Mexicans. Most all countries recognize children in the same manner. The USA is just courteous enough to extend to the children citizenship here as well as the parents country of origin.
liquid, most illegal supporters such as dee, scream bloody murder when the word "Wetback" is used and yet that is exactly the term she used in describing the roundup and deportation of illegals today. I guess it is only offensive when those on the side of the law uses it. I like your term, "Operation Return to Sender." My term would be "Operation Deport Illegals", it is just plain and simple and describes what our laws demand we do with illegals in our country.
Hey Pat, Operation Return to Sender is actually the name of what is going on by ICE right now. Here is the link - Operation Return to Sender
Dee's problem is that she can't see past the 'race', the woman arrested recently and detained by ICE you mentioned earlier (Is this Dallas woman the same woman who had many unpaid traffic tickets and was the case of mistaken identity that we have already hashed over and over in another topic? You never let a sleeping dog lay, do you?), same name as an 'Illegal Immigrant', but she was arrested for outstanding traffic tickets, at which point, due to her name, a flag was raised and ICE detained her. The problem was corrected when proper documentation was issued. She was an American of Hispanic descent. All that Dee sees is 'she was an American of Hispanic descent' and if she would have been deported it would have been 'Operation Wetback' all over again.
The term "Operation Wetback" was determined by Eisenhauer and Gen. Swing.
Kommandant Swing and his soldiers swarmed through Mexican American neighborhoods terrorizing citizens throughout the southeastern states.
They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. This practice incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned.
Martin is recommending the same practices when he uses terms like "bunch of Mexicans."
Since you both are strong supporters of these stormtrooper tactics and you refuse to understand the impact on American citizens of Hispanic descent, at least I have your views documented and the world can see your perspective.
Often times every day Americans find it hard to believe ANTIs have such perspectives. Now they see it with their own eyes.
Liquid, I thought you would be interested that the Kansas City Star reported the TRANSCRIPTS of the meeting said Martin was ANGRY and SHOT BACK as follows. So much for your "theory" he was innocently commenting:
According to transcripts, an angry Martin shot back, “I’ll tell you what’s available, is every frigging developer can figure out who is illegal, and when he says — like he told them — there’s a bunch of Mexicans out there, I guess some of them are probably not legal.”
Martin did not return calls seeking comment, but Jessica Robinson, a spokeswoman for Blunt, said Martin’s remarks were paraphrasing what a developer previously had said.
Now are you ready to admit he was wrong for his behavior and comments?
You still fail to see, Dee, that there is more than just Hispanic 'Illegals', there are also Chinese, Russian, Polish, African, European, Indian, etc.... ALL 'ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS' are being detained and removed from the USA.
Your comments "Kommandant Swing and his soldiers swarmed through Mexican American neighborhoods terrorizing citizens throughout the southeastern states." are very racist toward the citizens of the USA, maybe you should be 'Returned to Sender'.
Do you know who Martin shot back at? Was it the lawyer for the developer? Was is the professor in the library with the knife?
Take all that was said and quit using just paragraphs, maybe then you will see the whole picture, remove the blinders and look around, the forest has many things to offer and view.
Difficult problems require tough solutions. I like "Return to Sender". Too bad we have so many illegal sympathizers and fellow travelers. They could be a major part of the solution but instead are a major part of the problem. That's not the American way. We're supposed to be problem solvers. We and all Hispanic American citizens should be in favor of all measures necessary to achieve success, even at the price of some civil liberties. The only question worth asking is: "Is America worth saving from immigration's unarmed invasion?" If the answer is yes, we all need to endorse the strongest possible and most comprehensive measures to save America. This may mean a necessity for all of us to carry or have easy access to proof of our citizenship. However, in keeping with the concept of conservation of resources and energy, why not concentrate on ssn/name mismatches and on those who cannot speak English first?
That is how law enforcement works when seeking out criminals. They go into neighborhoods where it is likely that the people or person they are looking for would most likley be. If they were looking for a white male serial killer and his last known address was in my neighborhood, I would expect to be questioned and even detained if they had some reason to believe that I might be the one they were looking for. I wouldn't call it stormtrooping or terrorizing my neighborhood. How else do you expect law enforcement to complete an investigation? Your bias once again shows, dee.
If you are in your 50's and you still can't get over your childhood resentments, why don't you seek help? It is ridiculous to carry such a load after all these years. If it only effected you that is one thing but it is effecting your ability to think clearly as a U.S. citizen and you are demonizing our government and your fellow ciitizens over this. What a shame.
From now on please refer to the current term of deporting illegals as "Operation Return to Sender" as liquid pointed out that is today's term. Wouldn't want you to continue to use such an offensive term as "Weback" now would we? Afterall these are your people you are talking about.
Read the paper Liquid.
Your guy was a screaming mimi, thumping and pounding on the desk.
It is ALL in the Transcripts.
He should be ashamed of himself and resign!!
I agree with patriot, if you are still harboring such intense childhood resentments, therapy may help you. Does your resentment surface towards your husband, children and grandchildren? Please get help. If you can't see the light of being a proud American citizen who puts her country before an illegal invasion, what hope is there for the illegals to become American citizens who treasure this country?
anon1
Dee says about Martin - He should be ashamed of himself and resign!!
Is that why Torres resigned? He claims "I am extremely proud of my Mexican heritage, culture and especially my family and I will not let anyone demean or degrade it, least of all Mr. Martin," Torres said in the letter. Maybe his grandparents were 'Illegal Immigrants'?
Ulty, The problem with most ANTIs is their "view" of the American way is the ANTI way or HIT THE HIGHWAY.
You do not believe in a multi cultural America, you believe in Assimilation when you become very pale and Northern European-ish.
If you were honest, you would admit you do not believe Americans can also be Hispanic (Latino), Asian-American, African-American, or any other "off-white" ethnicity. You have treated us as minorities all of your lives. It is you who names us "Hyphen American" or just plain "bunch of Mexicans, Asian, Black/Negro, Native American, or Other." We didn´t begin this practice. You did.
Maybe Torres should understand the paraphrasing and its content instead of listening to the racist, biased Hispanic leadership who prefer to divide rather than unite all races and colors of the USA.
There is a law against thumping on a desk or raising one's voice? Could you quote a statute of law that supports that?
Are there laws against human emotions such as anger,frustration, hopelessness, etc.? Could you quote a statute of law that supports that?
Liquid, He resigned because after your friend Martin heard that Torres wrote a letter to his boss the Gov Blunt, Martin wrote a scathing letter to Torres´ boss making wild accusations.
Martin is the lowest kind of brown nosing xxx imaginable.
You are so funny. Now that the transcripts show documented proof of Martins´s red-face, fist pounding "bunch of Mexican" rantings, which you did not believe when Torres said this, now you make excuses for his tirade.
So typical!!
Dee says any differentiation between Hispanics and whites is racist, and does not consider that case of statistical differentiation. This means she does not consider that an individual may make decisions based on factors other than race, of which race is merely a statistical marker.
"Torres resigned Sept. 6. In a letter the same day, Martin thanked Ramsel for calling him about Torres’ comments in the letter to Blunt. Martin’s letter said Torres was “both unprofessional and inappropriate.”"
And you got "Martin heard that Torres wrote a letter to his boss the Gov Blunt, Martin wrote a scathing letter to Torres´ boss making wild accusations.
Martin is the lowest kind of brown nosing xxx imaginable." from the above? What an imagination you have.
I like your touch of the words "scathing letter" very dramatic for your part.
Liquid, Now you are accusing Torres of being an illegal immigrant? More Racial Profiling!! Shame on you.
In this very post, I displayed portions of his letter which disprove your false accusation:
Commision Liaison Torres´ letter to Gov Blunt, "deeply offended by Martin's remark."I am the proud grandson of Mexican immigrants who came to this country to provide a better life for their family and unlimited opportunities for their grandchildren and great-grandchildren," Torres wrote to Blunt. He said his family served the country during World War II and the Korean War. He asked that Martin issue a public apology."
Shame on you Liquid. It is right here and you chose to ignore it and make more false accusations against Mr. Torres.
Once again dee's psychosis shows up in her posts.
No, it isn't the anti way or the highway. It is the rule of law or the highway and our government sets the rules.
Assimilation has always been a factor in making this country successful. Most Americans have always agreed with that. Now all of a sudden it is anti view, especially of those of us posting in your blog?
We have already been over this territory before on what assimilation means and it doesn't mean totally throwing away one's native culture or language. Why do you continually bring up skin color? That has nothing to do with it. Still suffering from your psychosis of someone 40 years ago trying to rub the brown off your skin? Uh, this is 2007 now, dee.
Sorry but whites are the majority and Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, etc. ARE the minority in this country. Do you also fail math in school? Or do you just like to deny facts?
I have already pointed out the people who had ancestry from other countries call THEMSELVES by a hypenated American. You do so yourself in the title of your blog! It was immigrants themselves and their offspring that started that concept and many still do it today just as you have. Who is you?
I think Dee is trying to change hers and the 'Illegal Immigrants' social status by using race as their factors. "Mexicans long have used and manipulated race to improve their social status."
You have a reading disability, I questioned his grandparents status, not his. Please obtain some reading glasses or pay more attention to what is being said.
Liquid, Looks like you are desperately trying to change the subject. This is typical behavior for you when you are Losing an argument.
What is clear is Martin was wrong. He is guilty of unprofessional behavior and his comments smack of Racial Profiling. He should immediately resign.
Pat, and Anon1, When you ANTIs lose an argument you are quick to use Ad hominem tactics.
You lost the argument. You should admit Martin is wrong and be done with him.
And you Dee, fail to see the following -
"Torres submitted his resignation the next day - the same day that Martin sent his boss, housing commission director Pete Ramsel, a letter describing Torres’ letter as "both unprofessional and inappropriate." (both unprofessional and inappropriate - meaning Torres was taking Martins paraphrasing personal when it wasn't directed at him at all)
Martin wrote that his remark was directed only at the O’Fallon development, "where illegal workers from Mexico were at issue."
"I was paraphrasing what I had been told there and acknowledge I could have been clearer," Martin wrote. "I certainly meant no harm to Jim or anyone else."
But some Hispanic leaders aren’t satisfied with that explanation."
Above from the Missouri Democratic Party website - Groups want Blunt chief fired for remark about Mexican workers
See how much clearer the forest is when you look around from the inside, you can marvel at all of its wonders.
I am trying to change the subject??? Maybe you can't keep up!!! Now, take off your blinders.
Dee, I bet you believe in EOE based on race, instead of the person most qualified for the position, don't you?
Liquid, You, Pat, Anon1 and Ulty have convinced me of one thing.
You have convinced me that if I leave this subject alone, Operation Wetback may return and you all will demonize every American who is Hispanic in the country until you obtain Mass Deportation of the 12M, regardless the impacts on our economy, bringing on Recession and Depression.
It is time to STOP this behavior or the thought of Operation Wetback ever returning.
Therefore, I am taking this discussion beyond this blog and have taken it to the KC Star.
We need to nip this in the bud.
More on Martin from the KCStar:
Ed Martin made headlines again recently, when his over-the-top behavior at an August meeting of the Missouri Housing Development Commission came to light.
Jim Torres, the commission’s legislative liaison and secretary, resigned his post to protest what he described as a “table-thumping tirade” in which Martin seemed to imply that when a “bunch of Mexicans” are found on a construction site, the group probably contains illegal immigrants.
Martin apparently was repeating something a housing developer had said. But his nasty language and temper tantrum at a meeting of a state agency were inappropriate, at best.
Aside from that, Martin spent much of August sending insulting missives to Laura Denvir Stith, chief justice of the Missouri Supreme Court. He sneeringly, and erroneously, implied that Stith had mishandled the process of naming a panel of judicial candidates.
Martin, a 37-year-old lawyer who has been on the governor’s staff for only a year, was also in the thick of a fiasco in which the governor’s office was caught pressuring the Highway Patrol to publicly criticize Attorney General Jay Nixon, Blunt’s likely opponent in next year’s governor’s race.
Martin seems unable to appropriately separate politics from the business of governing, and Blunt doesn’t seem to mind. If Martin is determined to behave like a political operative, he should join the governor’s campaign team and stop embarrassing the state.
This is Dee calling Martins letter scathing - Martins letter "Martin wrote that his remark was directed only at the O’Fallon development, "where illegal workers from Mexico were at issue."
"I was paraphrasing what I had been told there and acknowledge I could have been clearer," Martin wrote. "I certainly meant no harm to Jim or anyone else."
Maybe you should write a book of fiction Dee, you seem pretty well adapted to do it.
Liquid, Your misinterpretations continue. The letter Martin wrote to Torres´boss saying Torres was unprofessional was what I was referencing as scathing.
Go back and read please.
It was Torres and the TRANSCRIPTs that describe Martin´s angry outburst.
Liquid, You keep digging yourself in deeper. You don´t even need a shovel.
Just admit Martin was wrong and be done with it.
In Operation Wetback the 'Illegals' were being directly taken to the border, no hearing, no detention center, no nothing. Now we have the means to separate to keep Operation Wetback from happening again, and it still isn't enough for you, you complain of the detention centers, and th separation of adult 'Illegals' with their children when the parents CHOOSE to leave their children behind. Great family values. Now you run to tell another BLOG about your blog, how entertaining and childish.
My misinterpretations - I have been quoting the article directly, would you like the paragraph in which the quotes are from or how about the line they are on. Read the article on the Missouri Democratic Parties website, I linked it for you above in the post of September 15, 2007 6:55 AM. The quote is in paragraphs 9, 10, 11, 12.
What means, Liquid.
Drivers License are not sufficient proof for ICE. Remember the lady in TX? She needed her passport and birth certificate before they would let her go. Do you have your passport and birth certificate on you? Are you willing to have 50M American Hispanices held for 24 hours while ICE is proving you are a citizen? What happened to being innocent first and foremost?
This Racial Profiling has to stop before it starts!
Dee asks - Do you have your passport and birth certificate on you? Are you willing to have 50M American Hispanices held for 24 hours while ICE is proving you are a citizen? What happened to being innocent first and foremost?
In fact Dee yes I keep my passport and my birth certificate in a safe here at my home, plus an additional certified birth certificate and other certified legal documents in a safe deposit box, of which my family can open to obtain if needed. I am willing to have every person in the USA detained until they can prove citizenship. Your dream of Innocent first and foremost is only a fallacy, you can be arrested for reasonable suspicion, it is then up to you to prove your innocence, you obviously have no understanding of how laws work or function.
You obviously have nothing to worry about since Martin would never say you and yours are "a bunch of Mexicans."
Racial Profiling as in Operation Wetback only happened in "Mexican American neighborhoods" (see previous article quoted)
Regarding your misquote, here is the article from the KC Star which says:
(after Ramsel, Torres boss, called Martin and told him Torres wrote the letter to the Governor, Martin wrote a letter to Ramsel):
Martin thanked Ramsel for calling him about Torres’ comments in the letter to Blunt. Martin’s letter said Torres was “both unprofessional and inappropriate.”
How could I misquote what is printed in BLACK and WHITE on the Democratic site? Your ability to comprehend anything is seriously lacking.
Did you not read the article I quoted? The answer is obvious. It was from the Kansas City Star, a reputable newspaper, not a political website.
"Jessica Robinson, spokeswoman for Blunt, sent the Tribune the following statement via e-mail about the Martin comments:
"Certainly no one meant any harm to Mr. Torres. In fact, the director of the Missouri Department of Housing Commission felt compelled to apologize to our office for his former employee's claims,” Robinson said, referring to Torres. “We accepted that apology. We also recognize that when you push an aggressive plan to fight illegal immigration there will be some who do not want the same change you do. In this case, the lawyer for a developer who was caught employing illegal workers from Mexico did not want his client to take responsibility for his actions. Employing unlawful immigrants in O'Fallon or anywhere else in our state is illegal and the governor has enacted tough directives to enforce the laws against illegal immigration.""
Looks like KC is in an uproar over the Martin issue. Martin was Racial Profiling. The governor is being asked to fire him for his obnoxious behavior. (Note: Not many on your side Liquid, Pat, Anon1, Ulty)
Stats from the KC Blue Blog:
Blunt's "Racist Rundown"
1) Ed Martin Makes Racist Comment
2) Commissioner Jim Torres contacts Governors office upset
3) Governor responds telling Torres he can file a formal complaint
4) Torres files formal complaint. While doing so, Executive Director walks by and tells him "I wouldn't do that." In complaint Torres--described by many as professional, mild mannered--demands apology in September meeting for comment.
5) Commissioner Torres suddenly resigns.
6) Springfield News-Leader blasts Martin on a separate issue
7) Almost 20 Hispanic leaders and several organizations sign letter calling on Martin to be fired and hold press conference.
8) Due to press conference AP does research and finds out Ed Martin (Governors Chief of Staff who made the racist comment) contacted Torres' boss, the MHDC Executive Director and tells him complaint was "unprofessional and un-called for".
9) Just hours after the contact by Martin to Torres' boss, Commissioner Torres files resignation after 15 years of service, leaving many wondering if he was forced to resign for speaking up. Torres is placed on paid leave until September 20th. MHDC and the Blunt Administration refuse to answer whether Torres, the Legislative Liaison for 15 years, Commission Secretary and proud Hispanic-American, was fired.
10) Blunt finds out about press conference tells STL Post-Dispatch that its no coincidence these Hispanic-Americans are trying to find another issue while he "gets tough" on illegal immigration. Again offending Hispanic Community for comparing them to illegal immigrants.
11) This morning the STL Post-Dispatch blasts Ed Martin and Governor Blunt and sides with the Hispanic Community saying that after reading the transcript it is clear that Ed Martin went out of his way to state that where there are--brown skinned people--working there are likely illegal immigrants. They then say that it is time for Martin to leave his cushy $116,800 taxpayer funded job since he has used his position for conservative political attacks.
12) Governor Blunt holds a press conference today to address the issue regarding his racist Chief of Staff Ed Martin. Governor Blunt says that "He (Ed "Racist" Martin) is doing a wonderful job leading the staff and working with the members of the cabinet. I expect results and he's delivering results in a number of areas."
The Governor then has one of the three Republican minorities in the Missouri House speak out in support of Martin. That State Representative was Tim Flook (R-Liberty), who is Hispanic-American. Flook says "I agree with their (the Hispanic community) passion but not with their call for Martin's resignation."
Apparently, having one Hispanic-American is supposed to give it validation against a letter signed by close to 20 Hispanic leaders and the untold number of Hispanic-Americans that belong to the diverse groups that joined the letter including the KC Hispanic Chamber (both Missouri and Kansas), the Communication Workers of America (CWA), Coalition of Hispanic Organizations (COHO), the Inter-Faith Workers Justice, UAW Local 31, State Representative Mike Talboy (Hispanic-American), State Representative Leonard Hughes (African-American) and many more.
13) Blunt says court can improve that now Justice Ronnie White (the states only African-American Supreme Court Justice) is no longer on the court.
Quoting more blogs are you.... did you run and tell them about your blog and the "ANTIs", as you call us, how 'racist' we are. Theres not many on your side either, I see 4 comments in regards to that blog entry, which is the owners rendition based on his opinion, Yep, sure looks like there are a lot on your side. ROFLMAO
There are always 2 sides Dee, though it is funny that the newspapers you have linked to are very Liberal/Democratic.
You certainly have a lot of excuses for your perspective. You always have an angle or an excuse. The governor sent out his go-fers to do his bidding and they are attempting to cover up.
You know what they say. It isn´t the crime that does them in. It is the cover up. The Gov and Martin will get their due in the end.
This has gone far and is much too public. The Just are seeking Justice.
The truth will stand tall.
Once Martin resigns and admits his errors, I expect an apology from you, but I promise, I won´t hold my breath waiting for it.
dee you are running amuck again, let's see how many of those workers are illegal. I have no doubt that many are illegal aliens, not legal immigrants or American citizens. You should put your anger towards the 12 million plus illegal aliens who are mostly from mexico.
anon1
1) The incident in question happened at a meeting in Jefferson City, when the Missouri Housing Development Commission grilled the lawyer for a St. Charles County housing project.
Pete Hennessey, of Hennessey Development of Clayton, has come under fire for allegedly hiring a subcontractor with illegal immigrant workers. Hennessey has insisted he is free of any wrongdoing.
His lawyer, David Lang, was addressing the commission. Lang said Hennessey had been "proactive" in checking employees' immigration status. Lang then mentioned that one federal database that employers use "is only a couple weeks old. So this isn't something he would have been able to …"
That's when Martin interrupted, telling Lang not to talk about the database's availability.
"I’ll tell you what’s available, is every frigging developer can figure out who is illegal, and when he says (he = Hennessey)- like he told them (he = Hennessey; them = Missouri Housing Development Commission) - there’s a bunch of Mexicans out there, I guess some of them are probably not legal," Martin said, according to a transcript of the meeting.
2) Jim Torres, the commission’s secretary and legislative liaison, sent Blunt a letter Wednesday (Sept. 5, 2007) taking offense at Martin’s "inflammatory comment" and asking the governor to order Martin to publicly apologize at the commission’s September meeting. Torres said he was the grandson of Mexican immigrants and noted his uncles and father all served in the U.S. military.
"I am extremely proud of my Mexican heritage, culture and especially my family and I will not let anyone demean or degrade it, least of all Mr. Martin," Torres wrote.
3) Ramsel, who was at the August meeting, said he did not initially recall Martin’s remark. But after reading the transcript, Ramsel concurred with Martin’s explanation that it appeared to address the alleged use of illegal workers at that particular O’Fallon work site.
4) Torres files formal complaint. Ramsel said he saw a draft of Torres letter before it was sent and thought it was inappropriate for Torres to complain to Blunt about Martin while signing the letter in his official capacity, instead of as a private citizen.
"I told him it was his choice, but I did not encourage it," Ramsel said.
5) Torres resigned Sept. 6, 2007.
6) In a letter the same day, Martin thanked Ramsel for calling him about Torres’ comments in the letter to Blunt. Martin’s letter said Torres was “both unprofessional and inappropriate.”
Martin wrote that his remark was directed only at the O’Fallon development, "where illegal workers from Mexico were at issue."
"I was paraphrasing what I had been told there and acknowledge I could have been clearer," Martin wrote. "I certainly meant no harm to Jim or anyone else."
Martin said his comments during the meeting were meant to convey the idea that too many developers and contractors are ignoring the law when it comes to illegal workers.
Martin said later that he was paraphrasing remarks the developer had made during a meeting with O’Fallon officials. The DEVELOPER PURPORTEDLY ACKNOWLEDGED that there very well might be illegal workers at the construction site.
7) According to Bob Lowery, the O’Fallon city administrator who attended the meeting with the developer, Martin’s use of the words “bunch of Mexicans” precisely mirrored those of the developer’s. O’Fallon’s mayor, Donna Morrow, also was at the meeting and confirmed that Martin’s paraphrasing was accurate.
Ramsel, who was at the August meeting, said he did not initially recall Martin’s remark. But after reading the transcript, Ramsel concurred with Martin’s explanation that it appeared to address the alleged use of illegal workers at that particular O’Fallon work site.
"Mr. Martin was responding to a developer he thought was making excuses," Blunt said Monday at a news conference in St. Louis.
8) But some Hispanic leaders aren’t satisfied with that explanation.
Nothing short of Martin’s firing and an apology from the governor’s office will suffice, said Rita Valenciano, president of the Coalition of Hispanic Organizations, who was joined by other Kansas City-area Hispanic leaders at a news conference.
"This statement made by the chief of staff and the governor’s office in 2007 makes it one of the most profiling and racist statements to come from the governor’s office in recent history in Missouri," she said.
Valenciano drew little distinction between whether Martin was speaking on his own behalf or paraphrasing a developer at the hearing. She said that even if Martin were paraphrasing the comments of someone else, he should have gone out of his way to distance himself and Blunt’s office from suggesting that some Mexicans at work sites are likely to be illegal immigrants.
The Hispanic leaders accused Martin of making a racist implication that any group of Mexican-appearing people probably includes illegal immigrants.
At times Monday, Hispanic leaders misquoted Martin.
In the news release issued by Valenciano, Martin was incorrectly quoted as saying “where there are Mexican (looking people) — you are likely to find illegals.”
Then at the news conference later that day, Valenciano quoted Martin incorrectly again, saying he had said “frigging Mexican” people.
When reminded that Martin said “frigging developers,” she said she did not have a transcript of the meeting in front of her.
9) Torres is on paid vacation pending his official resignation on Sept. 20. On Tuesday, he declined to say whether he resigned as a result of Martin’s remark.
10) "I find it ironic that Mr. Martin would characterize my comments in my letter of Sept. 5, 2007, as `both unprofessional and inappropriate,’" Torres said. "I think anyone in attendance at the Aug. 27, 2007, commission meeting would find his inflammatory comments and behavior in a public meeting extremely unprofessional and inappropriate for someone representing the governor of the state." (Mr. Torres can’t even get the date right of Aug. 17, 2007?)
11) Blunt spokeswoman Jessica Robinson stressed that "no one meant any harm to Mr. Torres" and noted the director of the housing commission "felt compelled to apologize to our office for his former employee’s claims."
12) Pete Ramsel, director of the housing commission, said Jim Torres, the legislative liaison and secretary for the commission, left voluntarily. Torres’ resignation, expressed in a Sept. 6 letter, is effective Sept. 20.
“I think everybody needs to know he was not asked to resign,” Ramsel said Thursday. “It was Jim’s decision.”
Ramsel’s comments came a day after Hispanic leaders in St. Louis and state Democrats suggested Torres was fired for daring to protest comments made by Ed Martin, Gov. Matt Blunt’s chief of staff. Hispanic groups said the comments were racist, but Martin said he was merely paraphrasing what someone else said.
13) Rep. Timothy Flook, R-Liberty, who is of Hispanic heritage, said Martin's comments don't seem racist to him.
"I classify them as indelicate but I did not read them as a straight out racist comment," Flook said.
Flook said he doesn't think Martin should be fired.
"I agree with their passion and their beliefs, but I can't say I agree it's a call for resignation or apologies," Flook said.
Flook is a second generation Mexican American.
Well, I see you copied the article I posted.
As I said, the Gov is pulling in every favor in order to get his someone-anyone to back up the Martin. This is the Cover Up I mentioned earlier.
The TRANSCRIPTS have the truth. Martin said:
"I’ll tell you what’s available, is every frigging developer can figure out who is illegal, and when he says like he told them them there’s a bunch of Mexicans out there, I guess some of them are probably not legal."
These are the FACTS.
This is in the Transcripts.
The table thumping, red faced anger drive to resurrect Operation Wetback.
Now the Gov is getting all his cronies in an attempt to cover up Martins rants.
Its not always the crime that gets them. Its the cover up.
And the most telling is you Liquid, and Pat and Anon and Ulty all want Operation Wetback resurrected as well.
Civil liberties be damned say you.
I just numbered the FACTS in order, taken from all the links provided in the above responses and placed them in order.
Dispute them if you can!!!!
City officials agree with Martin. City officials are not the Gov. office from which Martin was representing.
If you want to blame anybody for racial comments, blame Hennessey for his earlier remarks, not Martin.
Your Hispanic opposer's couldn't even quote Martin correctly, they do as you do, embellish what was said to try to further their cause. Nothing like habitual lying on yours and your Hispanic opposer's behalf's.
There are measures in place to prevent 'Operation Wetback' from occurring again, I already gave them to you earlier.
No need to dispute.
He admitted the deed.
Now he is Lady Macbeth.
"Out Out Damn Spot!!"
liquid, if you scroll down past the Martin article by this KC blogger, his next article is titled, "The Klu Klux Minutemen are coming to town." Very telling how biased and what a liar this blogger is with a statement like that.
Pat, What this proves is their is more than one side to the Immigration Debate.
There are plenty of Blogs and plenty of view points. The ANTIs do not have a monopoly on viewpoints.
In America, we can have various viewpoints and each of us can post them on our blogs.
More and more PROs are coming out and speaking theri opinions and their perspectives.
I say Hurray for the American Way!!
Hurray for Freedom of Speech!!
What you ANTIs are going to find out is, we Americans will NOT allow Operation Wetback will never happen again.
People like Martin have awoken the sleeping, gentle, accomodating Giant.
There is a difference between disagreeing with one's stance on illegal immigration and flat out lying and stating that the MM are members of the KKK. You never seem to mind any name calling and lies geared towards those who are for the rule of law in this country but you are quick to scream foul if any negative remarks are made about illegal aliens, even if they are based on facts!
You went bonkers when this Martin person called a group of workers who were Hispanic just a bunch of Mexicans (could have meant their ancestry only) and said that he GUESSED that some were illegal aliens and yet you condone the MM being called KKK'ers? You sure do like to operate on hypocricy and double standards, don't you?
dee, why do you refer to Mexicans as Wetbacks? Don't you know that your people don't like that word? It went out back in the 50's and that is why our government doesn't use that word anymore when referring to the deportation of illegal aliens from Mexico. They call it "Operation Return to Sender" now. See no more, Wetback references. You are the one keeping that offensive word alive. Oh, thats right you are the one who doesn't like Hispanic citizens being called Mexicans either even though you call yourself a Mexican American. We are all so confused since you change the rules all the time.
Pat, Obviously you did not read what I wrote. I referenced Operation Wetback.
It WILL NOT happen again!!
Pat, Even though you are off topic re: MMs, apparently you are not reading the news on the MMs. They have videos of their attacks on Migrant Camps and reports from a former MM who videotaped.
Here´s the news article.
Videos depict Minutemen tearing down migrant camps
All, This has been a good discussion. I hope you understand why this issue is so important and why Americans who are Hispanic are following this issue closely.
We do not want to see the return of Operation Wetback.
Perhaps it is good this issue came up. People need to be study the Immigration issues and understand the impact on their own families.
As I continue to say, I am for secure borders, employer sanctions and a path to citizenship or Guest Worker status for the 12M here. I am adamently opposed to the return of Operation Wetback.
Don't reference it then. That was 1954, this is 2007 and it is called "Operation Return to Sender." If you want to complain about deportation of illegal aliens today then call it by what it is called today. No need to use that "Wetback" reference anymore to pull on emotional strings here. Not gonna happen anyway, as that is why we have ICE and they are doing the government's bidding of enforcing our immigration laws as they should be. None of their U.S. born citizen children will be deported as evidenced by the Elvira situation recently but hopefully their parents love them enough to take them back to their homeland with them so there will be no family separation. Mexico has dual citizenship and these U.S. born chilren can return when they are 18 or earlier if they have someone to care for them. But no illegal parent should gain legal status in this country just because they gave birth in our country. They created their own bad situation.
I mentioned the article about the MM in that blog just to prove that the blogger wasn't necessarily being honest about the Martin situation either. He/she is plainly biased and makes false accusations as they did about the MM.
Even if it gets proven that a couple of MM did vandalize a migrant camp that doesn't make them members of the KKK too. Nor does it make the whole organization of MMM, KKK'ers.
Let me ask you this, how do we sanction employers if we don't get proof of whether or not they have illegals on their payroll? The only way of getting that proof is raiding workplaces, gaining their records and questioning their employees. You want sanctions without proof of violations? You want the illegals to do what after the proof is found? Continue to work there anyway or detain and deport them as our laws demand? Here is an analogy for you. How do we convict a murderer without a body?
I see you want the employers punished but the illegals rewarded with a path to citizenship. You think that is fair? I don't think so!
"Hispanic Citizen Response: 'Martin's comment showed a "xenophobic mentality" that results in racial profiling.'"
American comment: Boo F'ing Hoo!
Bob
Evidently some Hispanic citizens don't know the meaning of the word xenophobic. It means having an unnatural fear of strangers. How does making the statement "a bunch of Mexicans" make one a xenophobic? Did this person express fear? NO! Racial profiling? Mexican isn't a race, it is a nationality. Many people refer to themselves and others not only by their race or ethnicity but by their nationality and the nationality of their ancestors. What racial profiling?
Pat, Secure IDs are the answer. Additionally, we need to have comprehensive immigration reform and bring the 12M out of the shadows, provide them secure IDs, deport the felonious criminals, the employers are required to recieve the secure IDs of these employees, all documented, on file.
Bob, You are so eloquent!
Secure I.D's? That's right, for U.S. citizens only.
Illegal aliens aren't in the shadows. They are all right out in the open
I have heard your ideas of Comprehensive Reform. I totally disagree. All illegal aiens need to go home either voluntarily or involuntarily, I don't care which.
Dee wants, "...a path to citizenship or Guest Worker status for the 12M here."
The question is, "Why?" Shouldn't we at least make some effort to determine who among the illegals has displaced an American worker by accepting a substandard wage? If their jobs can be filled by Americans , why shouldn't they be the first ones to be deported? That would be a more balanced approach. Any other will lead inevitably to Mexico North to the detriment of all Americans.
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