Thursday, September 25, 2008

National ID Cards: Should we have them? Should they contain Biometric Data? Will they Violate our Civil Liberties?

Britain is unveiling a new National ID card. This card includes an electronic chip containing biometric data of the holder, including fingerprints and digital facial images.
Question to viewers: Should we have a new National ID card in America for all Americans, Immigrants and Guest Workers containing fingerprints and digitial facial images? What about DNA? What do you think? Would these cards have a down side? Example: Infringe on our Civil Liberties? Make us a Police State? What do you think?
Britain unveils ID cards for foreign nationals
2008-09-26 05:59:46
LONDON-- Britain's Home Office unveiled on Thursday the identity cards to be issued to foreign residents in the country. The plastic wallet card shows the holder's photograph, name, date of birth, nationality and immigration status. A secure electronic chip holds their biometric details, including fingerprints, and a digital facial image, said a Home Office press release. The first cards are scheduled to be issued in November 25. Within three years all foreign nationals applying to enter or remain in Britain will be required to have a card. And by 2014, 90percent of foreign residents in Britain should have identity cards. The introduction of national identity cards for foreign residents will be followed by the first ID cards for British citizens from 2009, targeting workers in sensitive roles such as airports. One year after that, ID cards will be available to young people who want them, and from 2011, cards will be available to the general opulation. Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the announcement of the cards for foreign residents shows the government is fulfilling its commitment to protect identity.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

NO WAY!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin

yave said...

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the announcement of the cards for foreign residents shows the government is fulfilling its commitment to protect identity.

Because we can only preserve our identities, our sense of self, through reliance on the government ... we need Daddies in Nice Suits to protect our identities and save us from the Bad Guyz. Looks like the Labour Party needs to spend some time in the wilderness to rediscover its values, if it ever had any.

Let me get this straight--the GOP wants to follow the British Labour Party in issuing national ID cards so we can conceivably be electronically monitored anytime a government official, police officer, or store clerk asks to see ID? What's next, a GPS chip? What was that about the nanny state that conservatives used to complain about?

Let me offer a startling prediction: that conservatives "rediscover" their civil libertarian bona fides once Obama is sworn in this coming February.

patriot said...

I am all for it!

Dee said...

I think it is interesting that Britain is instituting this policy. I say let them serve as an example. Let´s see what happens when they do it and it will serve as a reference for us as those in power debate this issue.
The biometric data aspect is intimidating. Scary. What limits do we set? Will we be the next 007 movie?

I want tos ee what happens when a country institutes this. Go Britain. Serve as an example we can ALL reference.

patriot said...

Talk about "scare tactics"! lol.

ultima said...

I have been an advocate of machine-readable biometric IDs for foreign nationals and visitors for a long time. It is a good idea in this age of illegal aliens and terrorists. Obviously, the biometric data should only be whatever is necessary to identify the holder and check his or her bona fides against a national data base. Height, weight, age, eye color, blood type,name,maybe some day DNA, identifying serial number, country of origin, fingerprint,visa expiration date,purpose of visit, identifying scars or birthmarks, etc. should be sufficient. Medical conditions might be optional.

ultima said...

I have been an advocate of machine-readable biometric IDs for foreign nationals and visitors for a long time. It is a good idea in this age of illegal aliens and terrorists. Obviously, the biometric data should only be whatever is necessary to identify the holder and check his or her bona fides against a national data base. Height, weight, age, eye color, blood type,name,maybe some day DNA, identifying serial number, country of origin, fingerprint,visa expiration date,purpose of visit, identifying scars or birthmarks, etc. should be sufficient. Medical conditions might be optional.

The Arizonian said...

The part about the Real ID act, is that it is already being put into place by many states. One thing that bothers me the most
RFID
Radio Frequency IDentification
A passive, radio chip that can be 'interrogated' up to 30 feet away, in real-world tests.
This is a serious security concern.
Just ask VISA. They had many cards issued with RFID chips installed, and hacker very quickly figured out how to read them remotely. And for some reason, the information wasn't encrypted, not that it would matter.
Thieves were literally stealing card information right out of people's wallet 10-30 feet away. Electronic pick-pocketing.

And now the Fed wants all of our Social, medical, and financial info on a card that *anyone* can read up to 30 feet away?

I'll pass.

patriot said...

AZ, are you saying there is no way to create a national I.D. without RFID?

Hran said...

We only need such things in a diverse, "rainbow" society. More Anarcho-tyranny.

patriot said...

Watch dee come back and say "oh VDare is just a white supremist, racist site". Irregardless of what one thinks of VDare the article made many good points. For example:

"We see the drift in this country, with the Patriot Act and its spawn at airports and in random searches of law-abiding citizens—all because our own overclass will not enforce standing laws against illegal immigration and does nothing to halt the transformation of American society by millions of aliens.

Unwilling to control immigration and the cultural disintegration it causes, the authorities instead control the law-abiding.

This is precisely the bizarre system of misrule I have elsewhere described as "anarcho-tyranny"—we refuse to control real criminals (that's the anarchy) so we control the innocent (that's the tyranny)."

Dee said...

My gosh Ulty,
Next you will be recommending they all be tattooed with the serial number and a chip implanted underneath their skin for easy scanning.

ultima said...
I have been an advocate of machine-readable biometric IDs for foreign nationals and visitors for a long time. It is a good idea in this age of illegal aliens and terrorists. Obviously, the biometric data should only be whatever is necessary to identify the holder and check his or her bona fides against a national data base. Height, weight, age, eye color, blood type,name,maybe some day DNA, identifying serial number, country of origin, fingerprint,visa expiration date,purpose of visit, identifying scars or birthmarks, etc. should be sufficient. Medical conditions might be optional.

Dee said...

Az,
This is scary. Would RFID be implanted? Yikes!!


The Arizonian said...
RFID
Radio Frequency IDentification
A passive, radio chip that can be 'interrogated' up to 30 feet away, in real-world tests.
This is a serious security concern.
Just ask VISA. They had many cards issued with RFID chips installed, and hacker very quickly figured out how to read them remotely. And for some reason, the information wasn't encrypted, not that it would matter.
Thieves were literally stealing card information right out of people's wallet 10-30 feet away. Electronic pick-pocketing.

And now the Fed wants all of our Social, medical, and financial info on a card that *anyone* can read up to 30 feet away?

I'll pass.

Dee said...

Hran,
Your article, even though Vdare, is accurate to a degree. I have been reading more and more European articles that are ANTI Muslim. Recently I have been reading about radicals like Geert Wilders who is a Dutch politician who advocates the removal of all Muslims, even citizens, from his country. He said if Muhammed were alive today he would be a terrorist. He said the Koran was a terrorist book similar to Mein Kampf. Geert is also famous for insisting the Muhammed cartoons be published.

Geert was on Glenn Beck the other day and the two practically hugged each other as sympaticos. (Geert - Muslims, Beck - Latinos)

I am sure many of Beck´s viewers were cheering him right along!

Anonymous said...

Dont you all know whats coming. This is not your country. The USA doesnt belong to Americans. England doesnt belong to the English either. This world belongs to everyone. The same everywhere. We all need to feed our families. We all want the same dreams. And, we will get them because they are rightfully ours. My identity is I am a citizen of the world. I am free to go where I want, do what I want, work where I want. Get over it people. This is the new world.

patriot said...

LOL! Just try it anon! You will be detained and deported from ANY country that you don't have papers to enter and reside in. And no, it isn't your right to go anywhere you please without those necessary papers but do enjoy your fantasy world.

Dee said...

Pat, Anon does have a point, whether you agree with it or not. The world is, in fact, changing.

Blame it on the internet, or movies, or international media. What did Adam and Eve call it? The "Tree of Knowledge." Even the poorest of the poor see what is happening in the world and believe it is attainable.

THAT is the change in this world. The Haves can no longer keep the Have Nots at bay!

ali said...

Is the US the "haves" and Mexico the "have nots"?

patriot said...

Re-read anon's post, dee. What he is saying is that no country has a right to have soveirgn borders. Are you saying you agree with that? He said that the USA does not belong to Americans, that England doesn't belong to the English. You claim you are a loyal American that loves this country. That kind of talk should be appalling to you!

Alie said...

Anon, you might want to let Mexico in on that secret; they are known to take their immigration laws quite seriously--also to take a dim view of foreign nationals making demands on their government and citizens. Although, personally the thought of millions upon millions of Americans, Chinese, Arabs, Africans, etc., inundating Latin America under the rules of the "New World" does hold a sort of appeal to me.

Alie said...

Dee, I don't think you fully understand the situation in Europe. I do because I have family living there right now.

Many of the Muslims there are not like the Muslims we have in the U.S. Most of those (not all) coming here are educated and assimilate to a degree. Those in Europe are the poorest of their society and they do not assimilate well. They are making demands that the indigenous peoples accommodate their culture instead of adapting to the culture of the host country. Many of the young people have been radicalized.

I would suggest that you read some of the writings of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She was a member of the parliament in Holland and has had many death threats against her for speaking up against the Islamification of Holland and Europe. What is interesting about Ayaan is that she is a Somali Muslim woman who is quite familiar with Islam and its Sharia Law.

She worked with Theo van Gough on his films which exposed the treatment of women in Islamic countries. Theo ended up being slaughtered in broad daylight by a Muslim radical who outlined his rationale in a note which he "pinned" to the victim with the knife he sliced his throat with.

Unfortunately, Mohammed was no Jesus Christ. He advised his followers to "strike terror" into their enemies.

But, like I said, with our "New World" rules, the Muslim nations will soon be spreading their culture and religion, along with Sharia, into Mexico and Latin America. Why should only Europe be the recipients of this gift?

Mexico would allow Sharia to take precedence over its traditional society and culture for about 30 seconds if even that much. But Europe is just supposed to welcome the subverting of their indigenous culture without so much as a peep. That's interesting to me.

Alie said...

Oh, and Dee--the "poor" in other countries receive quite a bit of financial assistance from the wealthier countries. The problem is that their corrupt leaders prevent the funds from ever getting to the people it is meant to help.

When the better off countries are brought down to the level of the "poor countries," where will their assistance come from then?

The answer to the poor realizing a better life is to clean up the corruption and incompetence in their own countries and building them up like we did ours, NOT all trying to cram into developed countries. And yes, I include countries like Russia and Eastern Europe in that mix.

Hran said...

"(Geert - Muslims, Beck - Latinos)"

Dee, you show little understanding of "conservatives" like Beck. Glen Beck is a screaming liberal who has no problem with the wholesale ethnic transformation of the U.S.

Dee said...

Hran,
I realize you have admitted-proclaimed you are a White Nationalists and are quite prout of this. Your views are to the far right of the most conservative of conservatives. I know your dream is to have segregation of races and a location where the whites may reside without non whites. Therefore I should not speak in generalities when I speak of ANTIs or Conservatives because they often do not include WN perspectives.

Dee said...

HRAN,
So your view on this subject is we do not need National IDs containing Biometric Data if you achieve your goal of ousting Whites from the US. Is that what you were saying in this comment?

Hran said...
We only need such things in a diverse, "rainbow" society. More Anarcho-tyranny.

September 26, 2008 8:22 AM

Dee said...

Ali,
So given your statements, do you also believe in Hrans views? Or your you strictly a restrictionist, wishing to restrict the number of minorities into this country and mass deport the 12M illegal immigrants here and change birthright citizenship laws?

Hran said...

re:
"I know your dream is to have segregation of races and a location where the whites may reside without non whites."

For our own defense and survival, not because we dislike non-whites. I happen to like my own ethnic identity and don't want to see it annihilated in the rising tide of anti-white-ism and the flood of foreigners to whom WE are required to assimilate.

Furthermore, no non-white country on earth, Mexico included, would accept wholesale ethnic transformation without a fight. Immigrants from those countries can sit back and take the moral high ground because their homelands are not being transformed.

Dee said...

Hran,
Regardless how you characterize it, the end result is the same. Ethnic Cleansing. That is your agenda.
If you believe what you believe, at least admit it.

Hran said...

"Ethnic Cleansing."

Well, if whites go from 85% to less than 50% of the population, isn't that ethnic cleansing through demographics? And there is no end in sight. It may take another 100 years, but whites will end up 20% or less of an insanely over-populated U.S.

This is one of the techniques China (for instance) is using in Tibet: flood the country with ethnic Han Chinese. Eventually, the Tibetan problem is "solved" when the ethnic Tibetans are reduced to a tiny minority in their own country.

As for America, we've already lost southern California and other regions in the southwest. In a separatist scenario, we'd have to lop them off, let them go to the new Eldorado of Aztlan.

Dee said...

Hran,
The Southwest from TX to CA has been Majority Minority for some time. What do YOU and yours propose to "resolve" from YOUR perspective, the current status quo?

Hran said...

re: "the current status quo"

For one, you overestimate the percentage of Hispanics in the pre-1965 Southwest. Being from the Southwest, I can tell you there has been tremendous Mexification since I was young.

The "status quo" has been changing rapidly, and there is no end in sight. At least half the children in Texas are now Hispanic. That is a recent development.

Having so many Hispanics in the body politic means that the Democrats will eventually prevail. The Republican Party will survive only if it adopts the policies of the Democrats. When the Democrats dominate, there will be even less control on immigration. The floodgates will be opened.

This multi-ethnic society you envision will not be a peaceful, happy, Cloud Cuckoo Land, but will be a violent, chaotic, economically depressed, corrupt, Brazil-like thing: the very thing the current immigrants seek to escape.

So how to "resolve" the problem? I don't know. As you said, people like me are in the extreme minority. All we can do is try to convince others, including liberals, of the peril they face.

Alie said...

Dee, are you addressing me because I noticed that there is an "ali" here.

I am not 100% sure of my views on this topic yet. I am doing a lot of research, reading, thinking, and talking to people.

I will tell you some of the things that I think: it seems as though every country South of the border, in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, maintains their demographics. I do not see a major flood of born-again Christians into Egypt or Saudi Arabia, Mexicans into China, Indians into Mexico, or Chinese into Africa. It is only majority white countries who are expected to accept non-stop immigration into their countries. Why do you suppose that is? I haven't yet come up with an adequate answer to that. I guess I don't agree with complete demographic shift through illegal immigration. I can't think of another country who has voluntarily done this; although, if you can link to an example that I've missed, I'd be happy to read about it and take it into consideration.

I don't really consider myself a White Nationalist. I'm not even sure exactly what White Nationalism is all about. I will say that I don't see anything wrong with speaking up for or against policies which either benefit or harm white people just as other races have no problem with racial/ethnic advocacy for their group. This will naturally occur anyhow as whites become more and more of a minority and will form advocacy groups just like everyone else has. Just because you advocate for your group doesn't mean you bear ill will towards others.

Just as some people are not compatible, certain cultures are not very compatible. I strongly feel that Islamic culture is not all that compatible with liberal, Western democracy. That is a whole separate subject that I can expand upon some time, but there are very sound reasons for this conclusion.

I do think that we need to have a discussion on what size of population is optimal for this country. We have been traditionally very generous in allowing immigration, but should we continue this in perpetuity? We are no longer a developing country; we are now a mature country with 300,000,000 people. I personally have no desire to live in an overcrowded, teeming country like China or India. I am concerned for our quality of life. Most countries with a high quality of life have smaller populations. There is such a thing as carrying capacity.

I like the idea of the point system like some other countries have rather than the current chain migration policy we have right now. This would open up more opportunities for more people to immigrate instead of only those who currently have family members already here.

I am in favor of reinterpreting the 14th amendment because it is currently being abused. It was voted in to confer citizenship on newly freed slaves and their children after the Civil War. It was not meant for those coming in illegally to have children here who would gain automatic citizenship. I believe that at least one parent should be a citizen or that the parents should at least be here legally. I simply do not think that unreasonable. Most developed countries these days do not offer birthright citizenship. This would apply to children born to parents here illegally from ANY nation. And I believe it should only apply to children born in the future and that those already here with citizenship should retain that citizenship.

I would probably be a lot more open to legalizing the illegals if we hadn't as a country already been down this road in 1986. I simply do not see what would be different. If I really thought the government was serious in stopping this illegal immigration and securing the border, I would consider legal status for those here working with no criminal records outside of their illegal status. But, I simply do not trust the government to do this and firmly believe that another amnesty will only encourage more illegal immigration which the business people will want once they can no longer exploit the newly legalized and that we will only repeat the same mistakes as in the past. And I believe that we will be in danger of losing our sovereignty as there will be a continuous demand from the ethnocentric groups to legalize more and more illegals. Eventually, there will be no politicians who will be able to speak against open borders.

Dee said...

Alie, You are right. We have an Ali and Alie in this discussion. Please tell us a little about yourself. Are you the one that is student and female or ?? Tell us please.

You offer some interesting perspectives.

Dee said...

Alie,
Where I disagree:
There are locations, of different ethnicities, that are rich in growth and growing rapidly. Dubai comes to mind. It is the fastest growing city in the world. Israeli cities are said to be the US all over again.

I just heard on one of the news talk shows: the Top 1 percent is making 20% of the national income. In the 1980s, the Top 1 percent were making 8%. We have not seen this difference in the distribution of wealth since the 1920s.

The 1% in our country and other countries are buying up land and cities, buying cheap labor to build their latest version of pyramids and create another manifest destiny as they plunder new lands.

patriot said...

dee, I think you totally miss Alie and Hran's point. She was talking about her objection to the demographic change in this country directly due to illegal immigration and the attitude of those ethnically like them who have been here for a generation or longer. Many, if not most of them are salivating over the transformation of our country from an identity of white European culture to a brown Latino one. As she said no society of citizens who represent the mainstream of their country would ever willingly accept that. It isn't racist or xenophobic for whites to protect and retain the identifying culture of this country anymore than it is for Mexicans in Mexico to do the same in their country. If that equates to white nationalism in this country then it is brown nationalism in Mexico and other Latino countries. I hate the hypocricy of that line of thinking!

Hran said...

Dee,
As Patriot said, you don't address the issue.

Alie said: "I do not see a major flood of born-again Christians into Egypt or Saudi Arabia, Mexicans into China, Indians into Mexico, or Chinese into Africa. It is only majority white countries who are expected to accept non-stop immigration into their countries."

Instead of admitting that there is a white American ethnic group that it is being reduced to a minority in its own country, and that only white groups are required to do so, you go off on a tangent about the the emirate of Dubai and the distribution of wealth in the U.S.

Dubai is interesting, but hardly an apt comparison with the U.S. or Mexico. The "native" population of Dubai is something like 400,000 people. Furthermore, it is a constitutional monarchy, lending support to the idea that multi-ethnic states can only work with a large dose of tyranny in one form or another.

Alie said...

Iraq is one of those countries with multiple ethnic groups which were only kept from getting at each other's throats by the repressive rule of Saddam Hussein. As soon as he was removed from power, they started going at each other. It remains to be seen whether a democratic government with power sharing will work in that country without brutal repression. I hope it does.

Dee, I am a 20-something female, raised in a Democratic family, but consider myself a political Independent. I have finished college, work, and do quite a bit of reading. I am quite concerned for my future and the future of this country and that is why I try to keep up with current events, unlike many friends my age who are quite clueless.

The Arizonian said...

Sorry, I was on vacation....

Can the have a National ID without RFID? Sure, but RFID is component on the National ID that the Fed is really pushing for, almost making it a requirement. The already have RFID chips is most newly issued Passports.

Citizen of the world.... Sounds like more socialist/communist propaganda. Just trying to further the idea that no nations should exist and that we should have some overly large world government being nanny to everyone? The fact of the matter is, I was never issued, nor have I ever seen, an ID for an "Earth Citizen". Just who would issue these, the UN?

Oh, and yes Dee, there is a RFID chip that *could* be planted under the skin in existence now. But the Fed hasn't talked about implementing these for citizens at this time.
Do you know of the chips you can have implanted in your pets, to make it easier for your pet to be returned to you in case you were separated? Same basic tech.
But, the do have one for infants when they are born, purely on a voluntary basis.

LMJ said...

You know something. I was watching Demolition Man this weekend and thought of this topic.

For those that haven't seen it. The story takes place only 30 years into the future. Southern Cal is transformed into a society where very privileged ppl chose to live without several liberties (exmpl: swearing, no red meat, no physical contact a la sex, etc,etc) in exchange for a very Mayberrian-like society where the only crimes committed were by ppl who chose to keep their liberties in exchange for living in the sewers eating rat burgers or starving. The ppl that were living in the Mayberrian society also were implanted with chips very much like the chips that are being referred on this article. I highly recommend this movie as an example of what possibly would happen if this is to become law/required.

patriot said...

Oh jeez, so if we have chips implanted that means that the next step will be eating ratburgers, etc.? Bet you are a science fiction fan and hide under your bed all day. LOL!

Liquidmicro said...

The Mexicans are already getting chips implanted.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080823/news_1n23chips.html

Dee said...

Hran,
Of course Dubai is an apt comparison.
How do you think the natives feel about the rich elitists who are overtaking them and putting them into indentured servitude? Remind you of what happened to the Native Americans here?

LOL.
Truth hurts!

Dee said...

Pat and Hran,
The truth does hurt doesnt it?!?
Dubai is an excellent example!

Dee said...

Alie,
You and Hran do have similar perspectives. Both intelligent. Both studious. Both restrictionist points of view. Interesting but not the majority and definitely not my perspective.

Dee said...

LMJ,
I agree. I saw that movie too. Also 1984 and Soylent Green.
Seems like these movies are becoming reality!
The ANTIS do not care we are giving up our civil liberties.

PS: The punchline is Soylent Green is, "soylent green is people!"

Dee said...

Pat,
Poor Pat!
You dont know you are already eating Rat, Cat meat in various restaurants now!
And how about the animal feces and insects in your cereal and boxed, dried products!
But then again, we do eat dead cows, pigs and chickens every day!
You obviously do not read the small print!

patriot said...

Most American's ancestors arrived here after the U.S. became a soveirgn nation with borders and immigration laws. Neigher they nor their ancestors played a role in the demise of the native indians. So since it wasn't present day American's actions it is not "our truth" to hurt about.

As far as some impurities in our foods what has that to do with implanting a chip in us for identification? imj was suggesting that we would go from implants to eating rat burgers and drinking sewer water. Kind of far fetched and not connected wouldn't you say, dee? You are the one always claimng that the anti side uses scare tactics and yet you buy into that one?

I have asked several tiimes how having a tamperproof I.D. such as eye scans, fingerprints or even implants violates our civil liberties and you have yet to come up with a viable answer supporting your exaggerations.

patriot said...

By the way, what the heck is a restrictionist?

Alie said...

Yes, I suppose the "Native Americans" felt a good deal like my people felt when the Huns destroyed their society and plunged Western civilization into the Dark Ages for a few centuries. Maybe we should be looking for "payback" from the modern-day Hungarians as it was their ancestors who were responsible for destroying our civilization even after we invited them in!

Does inquiring as to our carrying capacity in this country, how many people we can take in without stressing our resources, infrastructure, and beginning to resemble another overcrowded third world country automatically make me a restrictionist? I know you mean to use that word as a negative; but I don't see it that way. I don't think that wanting to preserve a quality of life for our citizens and asking questions to that effect is a negative thing. It's my country and future and I have a right to ask these questions and demand that we as a nation have a rational discussion on this topic.

The Arizonian said...

"Distribution of wealth".....

That is an old cliche of communism that it makes me sick.
"May God dam those how step up above the fray and make themselves more successful."

The best way to distribute wealth is through, dare I say this, working hard and make money instead of doing the 'Robin Hood' thing.

I have a wealth of knuckles, can I 'distribute' that wealth?

Liquidmicro said...

"I have a wealth of knuckles, can I 'distribute' that wealth?"

That's called knocking 'cents' into them.

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