Sunday, November 23, 2008

Immigration, Hate Crimes Against Latinos, Hate Groups and Obama´s Steps To Improve Race Relations

"Hate Crimes against Latinos" are increasing at the same rate as "Hate Groups in America" are rising.
The FBI reports that since 2003 - "Hate Crimes against Latinos" increased by 41%. SPLC reports since 2000 - "Hate groups in the US" have increased by 48%. It is clear these hate groups are recruiting on the web. Their audience? Young people. Their target? Illegal Immigrants.
The recent hate crimes in Patchogue, NY and Shenandoah, PA provide specific examples of this. In Patchogue, Jeff Conroy, a swastika tattooed young jock and leader of his teenage gang, ritually conducted frequent “Beaner Jumpings.” Their rallying call, “Let´s go fxxx up some Mexicans!” Members of the group said they went "Beaner Jumping" at least weekly.
They sought their targets by going to Latino neighborhoods. They physically assaulted, robbed, harassed, insulted and abused their victims. The gang had no way of identifying their victims as illegal immigrants or Mexican, so instead, they selected their victims based on their assumptions of what an illegal immigrant looks like. The characteristics they chose: a brown person in a Latino neighborhood. Someone who spoke Spanish or with an accent. In Patchogue, one of the victims these teenagers attacked was Marcello Lucero, an immigrant from Ecuador. Conroy stabbed and murdered him.
Another example is the Shenandoah, PA case. In that case a gang of high school jocks attacked Luis Ramirez. As the drunken teenaged jocks punched and kicked him, witnesses said the teenagers shouted racial epitaths including, “You F´n Spic”, “Go Back to Mexico,” “Tell your Mexican Friends to get out of town.” Mr. Ramirez died in the hospital of fatal trauma to his head.
Patchogue, NY and Shenandoah, PA are less than 200 miles apart. If you study the Hate Group Map between the two cities, you see numerous National Socialist Movement (NSM-Neo Nazi) groups, Skinheads, KKK and White Nationalist groups dotted along the path between both cities. (click for larger view)
Also between the two locations is Hazelton, the home of Mayor Lou Barletta, the city that put, as Barletta said, "Illegal Immigrants on Notice." Barletta said he wanted to make Hazleton "the toughest place on illegal immigrants in America." In 2006 he passed the “Illegal Immigration Relief Act” one of the most restrictive laws in the nation. He declared English to be the citys official language and forbade employees to translate documents without official authorization. In 2007, a judge ruled the Act was unconstitutional.
Activitists from the restrictionist groups “Save our State” and “Voice of the People” conducted numerous demonstrations. Many demonstrators included members from Neo-Nazi, Skinhead and White Nationalist groups. Both SOS and VoP are affiliated with CAPS, the Minutemen, PA Pundits, Diggers Realm and other like-minded restrictionist groups and websites.
Beyond Hate Crimes are the Racial Profiling raids occurring across the country in locations where restrictionist laws were introduced. Examples include Maricopa County in Arizona and Tulsa, Oklahoma. State and Local law enforcement agencies in partnership with ICE through 287 (g) agreements have conducted numerous “Suppression Sweeps” in towns with large Latino populations which have resulted in Racial Profiling, not only for Latinos but anyone who “looks Latino” including Native Americans, Asians, Middle Easterners and Pacific Islanders. In Maricopa County, these suppression raids have caused all Brown people (and people with loved ones that are Brown) to live in fear, constantly carrying their Passport, Social Security Card and Birth Certificates along with their Driver´s License. If they are caught up in a suppression sweep, without these documents, they are likely to be incarcerated into a Detention Center until these documents are produced. This has caused Latino parents across Maricopa County to ensure their young children have these documents on their person at all times, along with a cell phone and numbers to call. Their children live in fear of being stopped by the police.
It is no wonder that Hate Crimes are rising. As the SPLC notes, “The growth of these groups is being helped by conspiracy theories and other racist propaganda about immigrants (legal or illegal) that is being spread by mainstream politicians and pundits.”
So the question becomes, what can every day Americans do to Stop the Hate?
First: We should acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring and the number of Hate groups are rising. As with any catastrophic change in our lives, the first reactions are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, but we finally must come to Acceptance. Once we do this, then we can start putting in place steps to Change.
Second: If we acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring, then what logically follows is, when these Hate Crimes occur, the perpetrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If left unpunished, these crimes will continue to occur.
Third: Become informed. Be aware of the Hate Groups in your area. Be aware of Hate Crimes that occur across the nation.
Fourth: Talk to your family. Talk to your children. Let them know all Hate Crimes are wrong. Be aware the number of Hate Groups are increasing. Be aware these groups are targeting young people. Talk as a family so no one in your family is brainwashed into joining one of these groups.
Fifth: Communicate! Join a blog. Join a forum. Talk to your City Council. Share your thoughts and ideas on improving Race Relations in our country.
Finally, remember our President Elect, Barack Obama´s words:“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now… the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – (are) a part of our union that we have yet to perfect.. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.”

167 comments:

Dee said...

I recognize this is a very controversial subject.
Please share your thoughts and ideas.
Please be civil.
Please allow ALL to voice their beliefs and concern.

Liquidmicro said...

I would like you to prove this statement:
"Both SOS and VoP are affiliated with CAPS, the Minutemen, PA Pundits, Diggers Realm and other like-minded restrictionist groups and websites."

Seems you make more allegations without providing proof then you do about an actual problem.

PA Pundits explicitly states:
"Writers Views Are Their Own!

The opinions expressed on this Blog are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, views, and/or philosophy of PA Pundits or of other Writers."


"State and Local law enforcement agencies in partnership with ICE through 287 (g) agreements have conducted numerous “Suppression Sweeps” in towns with large Latino populations which have resulted in Racial Profiling,"

More of your opinion, no factual evidence to back it up. Your creating a level of fear just with your assumptions.

It is not Mariscopa County but Maricopa County, take the s out.


I think both sides agree that those who are guilty of a crime should be held accountable.

(Sometimes the topics you post should be construed as a crime, since you make many allegations and presumptions and may be able to be held accountable for libel if any body is ever defamated due to your words.) Food for thought since there was a school teacher recently who sued a blog and won.)
Former Teacher Sues Web Site Over Comments

Anonymous said...

Why do you keep regurgetating the same topics over and over? Can't you find something fresh to post? This topic has been covered many times with explanations and solutions already.

Dee said...

Anon,
Please re read this NEW article.
If you have NOTHING to add, please do not respond.

Anonymous said...

She may get sued by "Voice of the People"

We at Voice of the People have nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with any hate, white power, nationalist, or Aryan group. It has been brought to our attention that some of these groups have been copying and pasting text from this web site and posting it on their web site! We have absolutely nothing to do with that. It is not what we are about and we do not endorse any stealing of our text and writings for any of these groups use or self gain. This has nothing to do with race this is simply standing up for the laws of our U.S. citizens. This is legality vs illegality.



Thank you,



Voice of the People USA PAC

Maria Elena said...

What steps has Obama taken to improve race relations? You have reported these incidents over and over again but I do not see any thing in your post about Obama.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Here you go.
I KNOW you are in Denial!!
Go to Save Shenandoah.
http://www.saveshenandoah.com/
Scroll down to the bottom of the page where the videos are.
See the affiliations.
You should screen shot them. I have. I am sure they will be gone by tomorrow once someone on their site acknowledges this post.

Liquidmicro said...
I would like you to prove this statement:
"Both SOS and VoP are affiliated with CAPS, the Minutemen, PA Pundits, Diggers Realm and other like-minded restrictionist groups and websites."

Dee said...

Anon,
Give me a Break!
You are NOT affiliated with them.
Why do you pretend to be??
You are even too afraid to post your own name.

I would like Dan Amato or Wendy M. or any of the zealots from VoP to come here and dispute anything I have said.
They cannot!!

I only post the truth!


Anonymous said...
She may get sued by "Voice of the People"

Dee said...

M.E.,
Obama is President Elect.
I have quoted from his speeches.
When he actually becomes President, we WILL see monumental change and significant first steps to improved Race Relations!

You can Quote me on this!

Maria Elena said...
What steps has Obama taken to improve race relations? You have reported these incidents over and over again but I do not see any thing in your post about Obama.

Liquidmicro said...

As usual Dee, you presume that those guys are members of the groups staging the rally, when in fact they were at the rally, they signed a log book, yet you can not prove they were affiliated with the group staging the rally.

Liquidmicro said...

Here is the story you should have posted, makes a much better point then the allegations you have made.

Jury awards $2.5 million to teen beaten by Klan members

Liquidmicro said...

"See the affiliations.
You should screen shot them. I have. I am sure they will be gone by tomorrow once someone on their site acknowledges this post."


Those videos have been posted there since Oct. 19, 2008 @10:42 PM.

All it was a rally, no where in there can you proclaim that they are members from Neo-Nazi, Skinhead and White Nationalist groups. Talk about reaching for the stars and coming back with empty hands.

Analisa said...

Liquid,

One mark of intelligence is knowing your limitations. Dee didn't have to tell me your profession for me to know that you're NO lawyer. So, Liquid, don't offer Dee legal advice. If she needs it, she'll find a real lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, either, nor do I pretend to be well versed in legal matters. I worked as a legal assistant in my father's law firm for a while, but I know better than to offer people legal advice.

Liquid, you see to think you're an expert on all matters. I've even seen your absurd attempt to interpret immigration law in this blog. Now, I'll listen to Yave anytime. He took the time to go to law school and learn the intricacies of immigration law. He knows what he's talking about. He might even be able to give Dee some very useful advice or refer her to someone. To the best of my knowledge as a layperson, this is a First Amendment issue. But you should ask someone who practices this specialty of law. As for you, liquid, I suggest you stick to something you actually know something about: pruning trees?

Analisa

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

I meant to reference liquid's comment:

"Sometimes the topics you post should be construed as a crime, since you make many allegations and presumptions and may be able to be held accountable for libel if any body is ever defamated due to your words." -- liquidmicro

Liquidmicro said...

It wasn't legal advice, it was just letting her know that something like what happened to the teacher could also happen to her, for her to be careful as to what she proclaims without fact.

As for me being a lawyer, I am not, I, however am an expert witness in court cases in regards to trees, and yes I do need to know the laws in that regards.

As for my posting court cases in regards to Immigration, that's all it is, so until you can either prove my postings as incorrect, the court cases as incorrect, or anything else such as Federal Code I have posted, as incorrect, who cares who you listen to. Yave has yet to prove anything I have said as incorrect as well. What you, Dee, and Yave and various others argue for is the changing of our laws, not that what i have posted is incorrect.

Liquidmicro said...

As you also should well know by now, I am very good at research and gathering information. I have to do so due to my Reports needed in court cases for tree related issues, citations come easy, its your inability to refuting them where the problem is.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Wrong. Even Amato admitted they were White Nationalist skinheads in the audience.



Liquidmicro said...
Those videos have been posted there since Oct. 19, 2008 @10:42 PM.

All it was a rally, no where in there can you proclaim that they are members from Neo-Nazi, Skinhead and White Nationalist groups. Talk about reaching for the stars and coming back with empty hands.

Analisa said...

Dee,

Thank you for this well-researched blog. I subscribe to several anti-hate groups on my google reader, but your information is always the most thorough. I believe this particular blog concerning hate crimes against Latinos is the answer to Anonymous' rather insulting question:

"Dee, I am curious. Why do you see Hispanics always as victims?? What is up with that? There are plenty of white, yellow, black and brown victims in this country. Do Hispanic parents teach their kids from a very young age that they are inferior and always the victims?" -- Anon

Latinos ARE victims, Anon. They are being victimized by these brutal hate crimes, racial profiling, poor and inadequate schooling, hateful attitudes like those expressed by Lucero and Ramirez's attackers, etc. Does Marcelo Lucero or Luis Ramirez ring any bells with you??

Analisa

Dee said...

I knew when I posted this topic it would bring about lively discussion.
That was my goal.
Regarding the stats I provided, as I stated:
. The FBI provided the Hate Crimes Against Latinos stats.
. The Hate Groups numbers were provided by the SPLC

. The references to the Patchogue case and the Shenandoah Case were from previous news articles.

. The MAPS were from Google Maps

. The affiliations to Shenandoah Group were from the Save Shenandoah website. I have screenshots from that site saved on my hard drive in case there are later questions.

Liquidmicro said...

"Even Amato admitted they were White Nationalist skinheads in the audience."


Whats the 'key' word there Dee?? "Audience", NOT that 'they are members of the groups staging the rally', as you suggest in your topic, which I have pointed out.

Analisa said...

Liquid,

Do you know how to shepherdize a case to determine if it's valid law? Hmmm?? Do you know how to write a legal brief? How about doing research in the area of immigration law? Most lawyers who don't practice in that area wouldn't touch it. I've told you
You seem to think the immigration laws are cut and dried. From what my father has told me, they're not at all. Each case is individual and unique. That's because you start with a set of facts, then you try to find a case that is "on all fours" with your case (that is, as similar to your case as possible). This is my understanding. As I've said before, when I'm not teaching, I'm attending classes myself. Or I'm grading papers and writing lesson plans. I simply do not have time to go through every one of those cases you threw at me, shepherdize each one to see if it's valid law, then search around to see if there are other cases that are more on point. That's a lawyers job. Leave it to the folks who know what they're doing. Again, knowing your limitations is a real sign of intelligence. Neither you nor I know what we're doing when it comes to immigration law.

Analisa

Dee said...

Liquid,
If a member thinks he is a member, if he actively participates in a group meeting, if he carries signs, if he mass protests side by side, how on earth do you differentiate one from the other, particularly when the leader embraces you!!

Dont be caught up in the rhetoric! The videos tell the truth!

Liquidmicro said...
"Even Amato admitted they were White Nationalist skinheads in the audience."


Whats the 'key' word there Dee?? "Audience", NOT that 'they are members of the groups staging the rally', as you suggest

Liquidmicro said...

"That's a lawyers job."


I got all that information directly from a Lawyers Blog (all the court cases in a row). Please don't try to patronize me, I am well aware of how laws work, how to research and prove my points. As for Shepardizing, I do have access to Shepard's Citations.

I am also aware that each case is independent of others and is judged on its own merit and that previous cases, although similar, are only used as thoughtful opinion in accordance to the question posed.

I deal with lawyers quite frequently. Having 20 years in my profession, I do pick up on quite a bit of needed knowledge and make some rather good acquaintances.

Dee said...

You know Liquid, in a way, you remind me of all of the zealots who promote these restrictionist laws.
Think of Barletta.
He says I am putting "Illegal Immigrants on Notice." I want to make Hazelton "the toughest place on illegal immigrants in America."
The skinheads and the KKK are in the front line in his audience, cheering him on. This type of talk brings them all in.
He loves the audience.
His rallying call brings them all in.
His rallying call spurs their membership rallies.
AND Barletta knows this!!
Yet, when someone addresses this.
When someone says, "your rallying call has inspired these hate groups to recruit new members"
ole Barletta LIES IN DENIAL!!

HE says,"I didnt call them!"

HE is Either NAIVE or Just Plain STUPID!!

Anonymous said...

I never said that I was a member of Voice of the People, did I? You wouldn't know the truth if it hit you smack dab in the face. I have been reading this blog and there is much distortion of the truth by you. If I posted as snoop dog would that make a difference? NO!

Dee said...

I recognize most commenters are struggling with this topic and are STUCK in DENIAL in Step 1. But once we get to ACCEPTANCE, THEN we need to MOVEON to the Next Steps:

First: We should acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring and the number of Hate groups are rising. As with any catastrophic change in our lives, the first reactions are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, but we finally must come to Acceptance. Once we do this, then we can start putting in place steps to Change.

Second: If we acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring, then what logically follows is, when these Hate Crimes occur, the perpetrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If left unpunished, these crimes will continue to occur.
Third: Become informed. Be aware of the Hate Groups in your area. Be aware of Hate Crimes that occur across the nation.
Fourth: Talk to your family. Talk to your children. Let them know all Hate Crimes are wrong. Be aware the number of Hate Groups are increasing. Be aware these groups are targeting young people. Talk as a family so no one in your family is brainwashed into joining one of these groups.
Fifth: Communicate! Join a blog. Join a forum. Talk to your City Council. Share your thoughts and ideas on improving Race Relations in our country.
Finally, remember our President Elect, Barack Obama´s words:“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now… the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – (are) a part of our union that we have yet to perfect.. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.”

Analisa said...

Dee,

I can't prove it, but I have the feeling that some of them are right here on your blog - not all the ANTIs, but a good number. This issue seems to bring out the worst in people.

Analisa

"This type of talk brings them all in."

Anonymous said...

By the way, you don't post under your own name either, Dee.

Liquidmicro said...

Now its everybody is "guilty by association"?? If you listen to them then you are wrong?? If you make up your own mind or agree, then you are wrong?? Sighting an instance where a wacko makes his own decision, and laying blame to everyone on that side as 'guilty by association' is ridiculous. Each side has morons, each side has a fringe minority full of wackos.

I listened to each of the speeches you linked to Dee, NOWHERE did I hear anything about your statement of:
"Many demonstrators included members from Neo-Nazi, Skinhead and White Nationalist groups."

At no point does it show the audience, only those that were giving the speeches, and none of them even mentioned the words Neo_Nazi, Skinhead, White Nationalist. Still reaching and grasping you are.

Dee said...

Analisa,
I think you are right.

Analisa said...
Dee,

I can't prove it, but I have the feeling that some of them are right here on your blog - not all the ANTIs, but a good number. This issue seems to bring out the worst in people.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I see you are in sTILL in the Denial Stage!

Liquidmicro said...

I see you're still in the 'I'm the minority victim' stage.

Dee said...

Read back to the posters I screen shots I previously posted of those participating in the Shenandoah rallies and their signs.
The skinheads raising the signs and their words say it all!

Dee said...

Re-Read the Post Liquid!

First: We should acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring and the number of Hate groups are rising. As with any catastrophic change in our lives, the first reactions are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, but we finally must come to Acceptance. Once we do this, then we can start putting in place steps to Change.

Second: If we acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring, then what logically follows is, when these Hate Crimes occur, the perpetrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If left unpunished, these crimes will continue to occur.
Third: Become informed. Be aware of the Hate Groups in your area. Be aware of Hate Crimes that occur across the nation.
Fourth: Talk to your family. Talk to your children. Let them know all Hate Crimes are wrong. Be aware the number of Hate Groups are increasing. Be aware these groups are targeting young people. Talk as a family so no one in your family is brainwashed into joining one of these groups.
Fifth: Communicate! Join a blog. Join a forum. Talk to your City Council. Share your thoughts and ideas on improving Race Relations in our country.
Finally, remember our President Elect, Barack Obama´s words:“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now… the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – (are) a part of our union that we have yet to perfect.. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.”

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Read back to the posters I screen shots I previously posted of those participating in the Shenandoah rallies and their signs.
The skinheads raising the signs and their words say it all!


So you are going back to the Aug rally, not the October rally. And as I have already stated, which was about the Aug. rally.: Liquidmicro said...

As usual Dee, you presume that those guys are members of the groups staging the rally, when in fact they were at the rally, they signed a log book, yet you can not prove they were affiliated with the group staging the rally.

November 23, 2008 6:18 PM

Liquidmicro said...

"The skinheads raising the signs and their words say it all!"

Again, they were in the audience, they were not members of the group(s) staging the rally. They were there as citizens in the audience. Like I said I believe 2 of them even signed the guest log book. That does not make them members of the groups of SOS, Save Shenandoah, VoP, Minutemen, PA Pundits, or Diggers Realm.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Do you deny the FBIreports that the rate of HATE Crimes against Latinos are increasing?
Do you deny the fact that the Hate Groups membership are increasing?
Do you deny that Lucero was murdered? Do you deny the teenagers are charged with 3rd degree murder for Ramirez death?

Do you deny participants from the KKK, Skinheads and NSM were at the SaveShenandoah rally?
Do you deny Diggers Realm, Dan Amatos website is an extremest, anti immigration, anti obama website?
These are ALLFACTS!
Stick to the facts Liquid.
Then, once you ACCEPT The facts we can work on issues to resolve them!

Liquidmicro said...

"Do you deny the FBI reports that the rate of HATE Crimes against Latinos are increasing?"

Do you deny that the population of the Hispanic/Latino group is increasing and in so doing the rate of 'crime' whether it is hate crime or any other crime , increases with population??


"Do you deny the fact that the Hate Groups membership are increasing?"

This is happening on both sides.


"Do you deny that Lucero was murdered?"

Have I said otherwise??


"Do you deny the teenagers are charged with 3rd degree murder for Ramirez death?"

Again, have I said otherwise?? I have stated, I do not believe they will be convicted of it due to the facts as I understand them.


"Do you deny participants from the KKK, Skinheads and NSM were at the SaveShenandoah rally?"

Which rally, Aug. or Oct.?? Aug. as I said they were in the audience, they were not staging the event nor were they members of the organizers.


"Do you deny Diggers Realm, Dan Amatos website is an extremest, anti immigration, anti obama website?"

Yes, I do, and I agree with some of what he says.


"These are ALL FACTS!"

Some may be shown to be facts (Lucero case - FBI statistics), but much is nothing more than your opinion of others.

Dee said...

Liquid,
The facts are available for all to see.
Do as you want.
For the rest of us, there are steps we should take, including:

First: We should acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring and the number of Hate groups are rising. As with any catastrophic change in our lives, the first reactions are: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, but we finally must come to Acceptance. Once we do this, then we can start putting in place steps to Change.

Second: If we acknowledge these Hate Crimes are occurring, then what logically follows is, when these Hate Crimes occur, the perpetrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. If left unpunished, these crimes will continue to occur.
Third: Become informed. Be aware of the Hate Groups in your area. Be aware of Hate Crimes that occur across the nation.
Fourth: Talk to your family. Talk to your children. Let them know all Hate Crimes are wrong. Be aware the number of Hate Groups are increasing. Be aware these groups are targeting young people. Talk as a family so no one in your family is brainwashed into joining one of these groups.
Fifth: Communicate! Join a blog. Join a forum. Talk to your City Council. Share your thoughts and ideas on improving Race Relations in our country.
Finally, remember our President Elect, Barack Obama´s words:“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now… the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – (are) a part of our union that we have yet to perfect.. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.”

Anonymous said...

Many times it is all up to interpretation of what individuals and what groups are racists, isn't it? Some are a given but sometimes it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Dee said...

Back to topic!
Hate Crimes against Latinos" are increasing at the same rate as "Hate Groups in America" are rising.
What is important that we acknowledge the facts and look for ways to stop this from increasing.

Dee said...

As Obama said:
“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now… the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – (are) a part of our union that we have yet to perfect.. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.”

Dave said...

Thanks Dee, for the post! What an eye opener! I never thought to consider looking closely at how many hate groups and other factors are in such close proximity to these two recent hate crimes. Scary to see, sad, but so necessary to see, as well.

Dave

Rich said...

The SPLC is not exactly a reliable source for this type of information.

The SPLC provides no definition of a "hate group" and offers no objective criteria that it uses to classify organizations as such. The SPLC appears to think that it can stick this label onto any organization it wishes, including long-standing, highly-regarded immigration reform organizations such as the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) without being challenged as to its motivations or methodology.

Dee said...

Rich,
The majority of Hate Groups listed are:
. KKK
. National Socialist Movement - Neo Nazi
. Skinheads
. White Nationalists
Here is the interactive map:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

All hate groups have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.

This list was compiled using hate group publications and websites, citizen and law enforcement reports, field sources and news reports.

Dee said...

What you are referring to is the Anti Defamation League listing FAIR and a number of other organizations as Hate Group.

Read below and I dont think anyone can refute these charges.

ADL: Anti-Immigrant Groups Borrow from Play Book of Hate Groups to Demonize Hispanics

http://www.civilrights.org/press/2007/adl-anti-immigrant-groups.html

The report cites several key tactics used by anti-immigrant groups, including:

Describing immigrants as "third world invaders," who come to America to destroy our heritage, "colonize" the country and attack our "way of life." This charge is used against Hispanics, Asians and other people of color.
Using terminology that describes immigrants as part of "hordes" that "swarm" over the border. This dehumanizing language has become common.
Portraying immigrants as carriers of diseases like leprosy, tuberculosis, Chagas disease (a potentially fatal parasitic disease), dengue fever, polio, malaria.
Depicting immigrants as criminals, murderers, rapists, terrorists, and a danger to children and families.
Propagating conspiracy theories about an alleged secret “reconquista” plot by Mexican immigrants to create a “greater Mexico” by seizing seven states in the American Southwest that once belonged to Mexico.

Anonymous said...

How can any group or individual who states FACTS be labeled a hate group or a hater?

"Describing immigrants as "third world invaders," who come to America to destroy our heritage, "colonize" the country and attack our "way of life." This charge is used against Hispanics, Asians and other people of color.
Using terminology that describes immigrants as part of "hordes" that "swarm" over the border. This dehumanizing language has become common."

Most of the illegal immigrants who come are ARE from Third World Countries....that is a fact!
Anyone who enters our country illegally is an invader....that is a fact!

Our culture and way of life ARE affected when you have millions of unauthorized immigrants in this country who do not assimilate and in fact seek to recreate their homelands here....that is a fact!

Hordes merely means large numbers and we have a large number of illegals here. Swarm is a word used when many come at one time. How is this dehumanizing?....it is a fact!


Portraying immigrants as carriers of diseases like leprosy, tuberculosis, Chagas disease (a potentially fatal parasitic disease), dengue fever, polio, malaria.
Depicting immigrants as criminals, murderers, rapists, terrorists, and a danger to children and families.
Propagating conspiracy theories about an alleged secret “reconquista” plot by Mexican immigrants to create a “greater Mexico” by seizing seven states in the American Southwest that once belonged to Mexico.

November 24, 2008 9:11 AM

Anonymous said...

When immigrants come here illegally there is no health checks. It is logical to assume that since they come from unsanitary conditions that some will carry deseases....that is a fact!

Some illegal immigrants do come here with criminal records and some commit more crimes in our country....that is a fact!

Reconquista is an agenda by some Mexicans.....that is a fact!

Rich said...

No, I said exactly what I meant.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_release3102008
The Southern Poverty Law Center Manipulates Crime Data and Terminology in Last-Ditch Attempt to Stop the Immigration Debate

March 10, 2008


I've been in the forefront in the fight against illegal aliens for years. I've seen communities ravaged by unchecked illegal immigration.
I have nothing but respect for those that follow our laws to become legal residents and citizens, but those that break the laws to live here deserve nothing but contempt and should be removed by enforcing our immigration laws.

Dee said...

Anonymous,
Your hate and anger are raging of the page.

Dee said...

Rich,
The SPLC was founded in 1971 as a small civil rights law firm. Today, SPLC is internationally known for its tolerance education programs, its legal victories against white supremacists and its tracking of hate groups.

Morris Dees is an American Hero. He has fought for Civil Rights for decades! He is fearless! I admire him!

Jeronimus said...

How do you say, "Go back to Mexico" en espanol?

I know how to say, "pora espanol, marque dos" but I sure wish I didn't!

You don't improve anything by adding millions of Mexicans.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "...poor and inadequate schooling..."

What about the poor children of taxpayers who are being deprived of a good education by the presence of illegals and anchor babies crowding their classrooms and diverting school funding to ESL programs. That's one of the benefits of illegal aliens and their progeny.

The problem with many of these articles and commentaries is that the writers are unable to distinguish between legitimate social issues related to illegal aliens without using the word "hate" far too loosely. As I have point out previously, psychologists advise us to focus on the bad behavior of children rather than on the children themselve. Even a child can recognize the difference especially when the criticism of the behavior is followed by a hug and a reiteration of one's love for his child. This is the same focus that should be applied to illegals--focus on their behavior, their violation of our borders, their crowding of our schools and emergency rooms,and their violation of zoning ordnances. This is not "hate". One can be on completely amicable terms with individual aliens but view their behavior with complete abhorence.

We all know we should not hate and the pro-illegals use the term hate to try to insert an ad hominem reference into the discussion.

The best thing Obama could do to improve race relations is to call on the Hispanic community to fully support our immigration laws and officials charged with same. A proper response to such a plea would quickly make profiling a thing of the past. No one likes it but it is effective. If the Hispanic community fully supported the law and the enforcement of them, the profiling and crimes against them would decline and become back page news with the crimes against other citizens.

Anonymous said...

FACTS equate hate and anger? LOL!

ultima said...

Jeronimus hit the nail on the head with this post, "...You don't improve anything by adding millions of Mexicans."

While this may appear to be an insult to all Mexicans and Mexican American who have achieved significant success in America, it isn't really. It merely recognizes the fact that those flooding this country were unable to fix their own country. Why would anyone expect that if you add millions of those who failed to improve the economy and government of their homelands, that would represent a positive contribution. It sounds more like a cultural dilution with major adverse future consequences for our country as it becomes more like the countries of origin of the illegals. I wonder how many of the pro-illegal, anti-America folks have even thought about this in those terms.

ultima said...

"The SPLC was founded in 1971 as a small civil rights law firm. Today, SPLC is internationally known for its tolerance education programs..."

The SPLC has done some good in prosecuting those groups that are clearly operating outside the law. I do believe that they use too broad a brush when characterizing certain pundits and organizations as purveyors of "hate". Some are but many aren't. They are merely exercising their first amendment rights or expressing a different point of view. Some of those tarred as hate mongers have never advocated hate or violence against illegal aliens or legal immigrants. They tend to focus instead on their behavior and their adverse effects on our country. This is a point of view that needs to be heard. All is not sweetness and light in the illegal immigration picture. It's unfortunate if the result of folks telling it like it is, is violence but we cannot allow that result to enable a gag to be placed on the voices of those opposed to illegals and excessive legal immigration.

In the future, if text books were properly written, many of these folks and organization would be shown as the Paul Reveres of their day, folks who could see what was coming and tried to sound the warning. They should be considered the real heroes not the SPLC which in spite of its good works has caused significant collateral damage to the future of our country by defending illegal behaviors.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Describing immigrants as "third world invaders," who come to America to destroy our heritage, "colonize" the country and attack our "way of life." This charge is used against Hispanics, Asians and other people of color.
Using terminology that describes immigrants as part of "hordes" that "swarm" over the border. This dehumanizing language has become common."

The problem is that this language cannot dehumanize anyone. That is just another term the pro-illegals, anti-America folks have come up with to try to make it sound as though supporting the rule of law and national sovereignty is a crime.

Dehumanize has many meanings and none are applicable to the mainstream opposition to illegal immigration.

Dehumanize: brutalize,accuse of being: subhuman,vandals,beastlike,fiendish, cruel.

I don't see anything like that in the pro-
America movement. That term is totally inappropriate.
savages

ultima said...

"zealots who promote these restrictionist laws.
Think of Barletta.
He says I am putting "Illegal Immigrants on Notice." I want to make Hazelton "the toughest place on illegal immigrants in America."

Some of these folks are motivated by politics; like Obama they want to get elected or re-elected. But there is nothing wrong with being a zealot for the cause of freedom,the rule of law, national sovereignty, the preservation of one's culture, and the national interest. Why must you put a negative connotation of those who consider this to be their patriotic duty?

ultima said...

I would call all those who supported Obama, "zealots".

I hear there is a new wave of carpetbaggers invading Georgia trying to sway the senatorial election there into the neolib column. Too bad the Georgians can't rise up and throw them out like they did the earlier invasion of carpetbagggers.

Dee said...

Anon,
As always, you posted no facts, merely your opinions and they were very negative.

Dee said...

Jeronimus,
This post is about acknowledging and stopping HATE Crimes and the negative attacks against Brown people that have arisen with all of the negative talk about Immigration.


Jeronimus said...
How do you say, "Go back to Mexico" en espanol?

Dee said...

Ultima,
Such scapegoating.
You cannot blame the problems of the school system on Latinos. Also your term for citizen children "anchor babies" is racist and deplorable.
Given your racist term, you would call Eric Holder, our new AG, an AB. This is wrong. This language is as bad as the N word! Shame on you!


ultima said...
What about the poor children of taxpayers who are being deprived of a good education by the presence of illegals and anchor babies crowding their classrooms and diverting school funding to ESL programs. That's one of the benefits of illegal aliens and their progeny.

Dee said...

Ultima,
Your abominable use of hate speech is not acceptable.
Americans will NO LONGER sit still for your racist HATE Speech:
. Anchor Babies
. illegals as a noun
. 3rd World

These terms are NOT acceptable and are creating an atmosphere where our children, like the perpetrators of these hate crimes, believe it is acceptable to KILL another Human Being they believe is inferior as taught to them by their parents! Shameful!

Dee said...

Ultima,
WRONG!! IT IS AN INSULT AND IT IS HATE TALK!!

ultima said...
Jeronimus hit the nail on the head with this post, "...You don't improve anything by adding millions of Mexicans."

While this may appear to be an insult to all Mexicans and Mexican American who have achieved significant success in America, it isn't really.

Dee said...

Ulty,
If textbooks were properly written more Americans would know about some of the deplorable behaviors of some of our founding fathers.
As we both acknowledged before, we know Ben Franklin was a racist. His diatribe below is similar to what we are hearing today from your side about Hispanics:

"I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the jews.
In whatever country jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal.

For over 1,700 years, the jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen, did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other people not of their race.

If you do not exclude them from these United States, in their Constitution, in less than 200 years they will have swarmed here in such great numbers that they will dominate and devour the land and change our form of government, for which we Americans have shed our blood, given our lives our substance and jeopardized our liberty.

If you do not exclude them, in less than 200 years our descendants will be working in the fields to furnish them substance, while they will be in the counting houses rubbing their hands. I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude jews for all time, your children will curse you in your graves.

Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention."

- Benjamin Franklin at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention of 1787


Ultima said...
In the future, if text books were properly written, many of these folks and organization would be shown as the Paul Reveres of their day, folks who could see what was coming and tried to sound the warning.

Anonymous said...

EVERYTHING I posted was FACTS and not opinion. I challenge you to counter them then. You just don't like the FACTS, admit it!

Dee said...

Ultima,
The deplorable language your side uses DOES in FACT dehumanize all Latinos and Brown people. This language makes it easier to brainwash children-teenagers into thinking "Beaner Jumping" is ok. Remember what the students said, "WE only do it once a week." As if attacking and or murdering another Human Being is acceptable. Apparently it was acceptable for these students because they did it frequently!

ultima said...
The problem is that this language cannot dehumanize anyone. That is just another term the pro-illegals, anti-America folks have come up with to try to make it sound as though supporting the rule of law and national sovereignty is a crime.

Anonymous said...

So Americans should stop talking negatively about ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION because "some" radical idiots commit hate crimes? Sounds like squelching freedom of speech about a very serious issue facing our nation today.

Dee said...

Anon,
Your side WILL STOP the HATE language that you use for Latinos and Immigrants (legal or illegal).
Hate language is NEVER acceptable. The N word is not acceptable.
Going forward, WE will call you on it each time you use it.
Examples:
Tancredo, "Miami is a 3rd world country."
. Illeeegals as a noun
. Anchor Babies

I am starting a list of all unacceptable, racist language associated with Immigration (legal or illegal). It is HATE Speech, pure and simple.

Anonymous said...

First distortion of the truth. Tanceredo said that Miami looks like a Third World Country in terms of culture. He didn't say it WAS a Third World Country which would mean a poverty stricken area and most of it is not! Big difference!

The word anchor has never been a hate word. You do know what an anchor is, don't you?

Illegals as a noun? How is that a hate word? Everyone knows that it means someone in our country illegally. No need to twist and spin its meaning or nitpick. There is nothing racist or hateful about any of the above words or terms. What are you, the language police?

We all know what you are up to. You are trying to tone down the aptly named words and terms that fit this situation to gain sympathy for illegal aliens. You will never be able to tell Americans what they can and cannot say!

Liquidmicro said...

Here is what Ben Franklin was saying.

Identification and cohesion within a ethno-national group has to do with inter-group cooperation, and cooperation is easier for those who are part of the same ethno-national group. To take an example of ethnic ties in a multiethnic state, an (insert choice of race/ethnicity) newcomer to the States will do well to rely on his co-nationals: common language, customs and expectations might help him a lot in finding his way in new surroundings. Once the ties are established and he has become part of a network, it is rational to go on cooperating and ethnic sentiment does secure the trust and the firm bond needed for smooth cooperation.


Would you say this to be true or false??

Dee said...

Anon,
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
Here are Tancredos exact Racist Words,
"Look at what has happened to Miami. It has become a Third World country. You just pick it up and take it and move it someplace. You would never know you're in the United States of America. You would certainly say you're in a Third World country," Tancredo said.

Jeb Bush responded, "Tancredo's comments were "disappointing" and "naïve. Miami is a wonderful city filled with diversity and heritage that we choose to celebrate, not insult," Bush said.

I agree with Jeb and would go a step further and say they are RACIST!!

Stay in DENIAL Anon.
The REST OF US KNOW the TRUTH!!

Dee said...

Liquid,
You can stay in denial and spin as you will. I will go by Franklin´s exact HATE FILLED WORDS!! You CANNOT CHANGE the FACTS:

"I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the jews.
In whatever country jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal.

For over 1,700 years, the jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen, did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other people not of their race.

If you do not exclude them from these United States, in their Constitution, in less than 200 years they will have swarmed here in such great numbers that they will dominate and devour the land and change our form of government, for which we Americans have shed our blood, given our lives our substance and jeopardized our liberty.

If you do not exclude them, in less than 200 years our descendants will be working in the fields to furnish them substance, while they will be in the counting houses rubbing their hands. I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude jews for all time, your children will curse you in your graves.

Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention."

- Benjamin Franklin at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention of 1787

Liquidmicro said...

FBI statistics show there was 576 hate crimes against Hispanics in 2006; and 595 in 2007.

That's less than .0000119 % of the present Hispanic population of 50M.

Dee said...

What is clear is, Restrictionists, at various times in our USA history have attempted to Restrict new Immigrants into our country, whether through Racist attitudes or through pre-emptive restrivtive immigration laws. In Franklin´s time, they attempted to RESTRICT JEWS and Asians from entering. In Teddy Roosevelt´s time, it was Asians, Germans, Irish and Southern Europeans.
Today, it is your groups attempting to demonize Latinos.

ALL WERE-ARE WRONG!!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
You can stay in denial and spin as you will. I will go by Franklin´s exact HATE FILLED WORDS!! You CANNOT CHANGE the FACTS:


Nothing was spun, your inability is to understand/comprehend what it was Franklin was saying, you take it out of context to suit your outcome.

Dee said...

LOL Liquid,
You are really silly now.
I used Franklins EXACT WORDS.
You spun them and say I do not understand.

LOL
Thank you for proving my point!!

Dee said...

What IS clear is that the HATE SPEECH Must Stop!
The Murders Must Stop!
The Hate Groups must be extinguished!
They are brainwashing our children.
The end result is Murder!
and prison time for the foolish!

Liquidmicro said...

As a Sovereign Nation, then and now, we have the right to 'Restrict' who we so choose, to come into and become one of us. If we choose to exclude a group of people, that is our right to do so. Franklin gave the reasons to why he was against the Jews, frankly I agree with him, look at Agriprocessors. "In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal."

Liquidmicro said...

Weren't you the one haulering that Agriprocessors owner (Jew) was not being charged and was still walking free?? You wanted his head and his sons head. Must be a short memory you have.

Anonymous said...

We are not restricting Mexicans from coming here. They have more than their fair share of legal quotas. They are second only to Asian immigrants.

You however think they should be able to come here in uncontrolled numbers above any other immigrants.

Anonymous said...

Tancredo on Miami,

"Moreover, the sheer size and number of ethnic enclaves devoid of any English and dominated by foreign cultures is widespread. Frankly, many of these areas could have been located in another country. And until America gets serious about demanding assimilation, this problem will continue to spread.”

ultima said...

Ethnocentrism is simply a secular form of fundamentalism. It arises from illegals and their fellow travelers perceive as a collective grievance against the historical failure or the Congress, real or imaginary, to pass an open borders/amnesty bill. For lack of a better argument their pro-
America adversaries of dehumanizing illegal aliens. But there is an enormous difference between opposing the presence of the illegals and considering them to be subhuman. We all recognize the facts that illegals are human beings and that they are causing manifold problems. the unemployment rate in the Riverside, San Bernadino, Ontario, CA area is now 9.5% on its way to 12.5%. I wonder why that it is. Do you suppose it has anything to do with Mexifornia: A State of Becoming? Being able to feed our hungry population is teh key to social stability but yet the anti-America crowd presses on with their agenda of Mexico Norte that will be unable to feed itself. In the Phillipines,formerly a rice exporter, people are going hungry because now the Phillipines have to import rice and its cost is beyond the ability of many to afford this basic foodstuff. The price of rice and its availability are politically explosive issues there. The anti-America folks blithely ignore these kind of harbinger of our future with their incessant support of the illegals and legal immigrants who are responsible for population growth in America. The U.S. used to be the breadbasket of the world; now we also import more food than we export. They refuse to ask themselves this question: Where does this road lead us?

Our culture is Darwinian. That means survival of the fittest--those groups or individuals that are disciplined, dynamic, and ingenious will float to the top while cultures that do not compete well technologically will not. hence the need to structure the immigration rules and quotas to assure that the most promising talents and inventive applicants are given the priority. This is an imperative for America's survival in an increasingly technological world.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "They are brainwashing our children."

I don't know who "they" are but I do know there is a lot that could be said that would be the simple truth about illegal aliens and their fellow travelers. We don't want them to be the victims of violence but they must understand their culpability. If the illegals weren't here and if citizens weren't supporting them,the problem would be minimal and the violence would not be at a level any different from that experienced by other Americans. I suspect I will have to wait for hell to freeze over before I will get any sort of admission of that culpability.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

LOL Liquid,
You are really silly now.
I used Franklins EXACT WORDS.
You spun them and say I do not understand.

LOL
Thank you for proving my point!!


You have no point, you tried to lay claim to something that you have taken out of context. I posted what it was Franklin was saying, that large immigration numbers of any ethnicity, tend to stay in their own congregations and do not assimilate unto the surrounding population, as in the case he made of the Jews. What I posted was nothing more than the same thing, just up to date, for which I have yet to see you answer with either a true or false answer. If true, then say so; if false, provide evidence to the contrary.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Racist against the Jews? Shame on you Liquid.
Regarding the Agriprocessors case, one thing your side always does is indict an entire group for the crimes of one. That is shameful.
I don´t indict you and yours because of Gacy, BTK or Bundy.

Liquidmicro said...
As a Sovereign Nation, then and now, we have the right to 'Restrict' who we so choose, to come into and become one of us. If we choose to exclude a group of people, that is our right to do so. Franklin gave the reasons to why he was against the Jews, frankly I agree with him, look at Agriprocessors.

Dee said...

Liquid,
i wanted the guilty parties brought to justice, not an entire group.
That is what your side does.

Liquidmicro said...
Weren't you the one haulering that Agriprocessors owner (Jew) was not being charged and was still walking free?? You wanted his head and his sons head. Must be a short memory you have.

Dee said...

Anon,
Yes. You are just like Tancredo.



Anonymous said...
Tancredo on Miami

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
"I don´t indict you and yours because of Gacy, BTK or Bundy."

No, but you do indict us as a group if we do not agree with CIR, Amnesty, or your views.

Dee said...

Ultima,
You have to quit scapegoating and blaming all the ills of America and the Global Economy on Latino Immigrants (legal & illegal).
You can blame much of the Global Economy issues on greedy Business, multi million dollar bonuses, the Administration borrowing 4trillion from China, the War in Iraq and all the other problems brought to us by your friends in the Bush Administration.

The Arizonian said...

I know this be hard to understand but....

Has anyone looked at the correlation of population density and percentage?

This stats you give are numbers...
I.E. The number of attacks against Latinos went up 41% over how many years? And did anyone check just how much the Latino population increased in that same time frame?

The more yellow cars that are on the road increases the chance of a yellow car getting into an accident.....

The Arizonian said...

Also, did the SLCP report cover ALL hate groups, or just the 'white' ones......?

Dee said...

AZ,
The report covers ALL hate groups.

Dee said...

AZ,
There has been various analysis of the data. The FBI reported the raw data (numbers).
There are many factors to be considered in any reporting-analysis.
The facts are the numbers increase by 41%.
Variables include:
. rate of Hispanics
. rate of Hate Groups
. decrease-decline in new immigrants (legal-illegal) since 2006 forward
. rate of media coverage since 9-11
. Hate Group internet solicitation, recruiting on the internet (particularly towards young people)
. Number of Anti Immigration (legal, illegal) groups on the internet

Anonymous said...

Name just one of those groups that the SPLC calls a hate group that is anti-"immigrant." I was reading about the so-called hate groups in California and many of them they called anti-"immigrant." Not true!

Dee said...

Obviously you have your biases.
Both SPLC and the ADL have both identified groups like FAIR, NumbersUSA, Alipac and others as using HATE Speech and as HATE groups.

That is true!

Anonymous said...

You didn't address my remark. There are no anti-"immigrant" groups therefore the SPLC is not credible. They gave the reason they felt each group was a hate group. Many of them they called anti-"immigrant". There are no such groups.

Dee said...

Anon,
As usual, you are WRONG!
Look in New York. Do your research!!


Anonymous said...
You didn't address my remark. There are no anti-"immigrant" groups therefore the SPLC is not credible. They gave the reason they felt each group was a hate group. Many of them they called anti-"immigrant". There are no such groups.

Analisa said...

Dear ANTIs,

You know, the word “mezcla” (mixture) is my favorite word in Spanish. It reminds me of all the wonderful flavors that have led to American innovations like our music - jazz, rap, rock – our rich and varied literature, our poetry, philosophies and histories, which truly reflects many different cultural influences. It’s this vibrant mix of cultures that has created this beautiful country that is America. I know you don’t like Spanish muddying the purity of your English, but it is truly a beautiful language. I studied linguistics as part of my training to become an ESL teacher. You know, languages are not static; they are constantly in flux: influencing and borrowing from each other all the time. They are much like the peoples of this planet: alive and vibrant, constantly changing and evolving – no two alike. We get many of our place names in English from Spanish and from Native American words. We simply didn’t evolve in a vacuum. There are many groups who have contributed to America and American culture. So I guess I have trouble understanding why all of you ANTIs appear to prefer to live in a monoculture where so-called “white” culture predominates. Somehow, it just seems counterintuitive to survival (you know what happens when cousins marry, don’t you?). I've been thinking about this for several days now, and the train of thought got pretty long. So I'll continue this in another post. Anyway, it really puzzles me. I'm guess I'm getting tired of fighting what I perceive as bigotry and hate(that's my honest perception). It feels like I'm tilting at windmills most of the time. So, I just thought I'd say something positive about what I think makes this country great.

Analisa

Anonymous said...

Dee,

In many instances the only reason that the SPLC deemed some groups as hate groups was an anti-immigrant claim. No groups are anti-immigrant so they are biased liars. What about New York?

Analisa said...

Continuing the thought...

Like languages, people are not static either. There’s an incredible mixture in all of us. You swab the cheek of a white person and you’re likely to find that some of you have more in common with a black person in Africa than your white neighbor. I’ll readily admit, I’m not an expert in genetics, but this is what researchers from the Human Genome Project are discovering. So, this notion of “race” is more of a social construct than a reality, yet people are judged so much by how they look. Why is that? You know, when I look at the faces of black or brown people, I see immense beauty. “Las caras lindas de mi gente” is a popular song throughout Latin American. I am a mixture myself, so I really love that song: “The beautiful faces of my people...” The same goes for whites. I recognize the beauty, intelligence and sensitivity of all human beings, and I honor that. I’ve never argued that whites are inherently bigoted just because they are white - not once. However, I do have some question about the ANTIs on Dee's blog. Some of your arguments are pretty revealing of your attitudes. (To be continued...)

Anonymous said...

Analisa,

Tell you what, when Mexico embraces an illegal invasion of white people or any other non-latino group en masse so that it changes, dilutes and alters their culture, dominant language and the demographics of its country, get back with us, ok?

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

Continuing that thought...

Some of your arguments are pretty revealing of your attitudes. For instance, you appear to make the claim that whites are inherently superior to other groups. You’re careful not to say it right out, but you constantly allude to it. Take Ultima’s comment, for instance:

“Our culture is Darwinian. That means survival of the fittest--those groups or individuals that are disciplined, dynamic, and ingenious will float to the top while cultures that do not compete well technologically will not.” –Ultima

Let me see, Ultima...wait, don’t tell me! Would those “disciplined, dynamic, and ingenious” folks you’re referring to happen to be white, by any chance? Or are you willing to admit that many cultures contributed to this New World experiment, including black and brown peoples? In the past, you’ve seemed to indicate that you believe that white Americans are the most innovative and resourceful, win more Nobel Prizes, etc. Not so. There’s an amazing mix of influences from the rest of the world that have crept into American culture.

To be continued...

Analisa said...

Final thought:

There is no "super race" - no superior class of peoples, whether white, brown, black, yellow or Native American. There is a beautiful “mezcla” of peoples that make up America: the beautiful faces of our American people. So let’s stop cutting each other down and acting superior to each other. Let's learn from the example of Europe, which has gone down this road before in a hellish World War aimed at the extermination an entire class of people. Let's not choose the road of stupidity out of the egoistic desire to believe that we're somehow superior to all others. I hope you can see how bankrupt that notion is; it just leads to wars, depressions and major ethnic strife. As a people, we're better than this. I truly believe that. So, let’s choose a different path: Let us recognize the beauty and strength of all the peoples that have shaped this great nation. This is truly the most intelligent path. Let's choose compassion over hate. Do it for your children and for future generations of children, who may be a bit more brown, yet they are still Americans of great beauty and potential. They are our future. So, tell me, what kind of future do you wish to leave your children? A world of ethnic strife or one where we teach our children to appreciate each other's unique cultures and learn how to get along? That is my final question for you ANTIs.

Analisa

Anonymous said...

Are you claiming that the Mexican indians welcomed being conquered? Much of their langauges were lost and native indian culture was lost due to the Spanish conquistadores. If they ever "embraced" it initially, they lived to regret it later.

Anonymous said...

You are correct. There is no superior race and that would include the white race also. But every country that has a dominant society, culture, language and heritage has every right to retain that dominance and majority. They certainly have the right to object to losing it thru illegal immigration!

Analisa said...

No, I'm not claiming that at all. I was using your words in quotes. You are right: the indigenous peoples did not welcome being conquered. However, I do not agree that we (North Americans) are being "conquered" in any sense of the word. What we are experiencing is something that is a uniquely American experience: immigrants coming to our shores. The melding of cultures that created the richness and diversity that characterizes our nation. That is what I was driving at.

Analisa said...

I'm sorry, I've got a really busy night ahead, but I'll look at what you have to say tomorrow - if you care to respond. I appreciate your thoughts.

Analisa

Anonymous said...

Immigrants coming to our shores and blending into our society is just fine with me just as long as they come with papers in hand.

Analisa said...

Anonymous,

Some countries have more than one culture, language and heritage. Take Canada, for instance, which manages pretty well with its bicultural heritage: Anglo and French. Why is a foregone conclusion that one culture must dominate the other? What's wrong with sharing and appreciating different cultures, languages and heritages? Isn't that preferable to a model of dominance?

Anonymous said...
"But every country that has a dominant society, culture, language and heritage has every right to retain that dominance and majority." -Anon

Analisa said...

Anonymous,

We're coming up on the Thanksgiving holiday. Let's not forget that the first "illegal alien" had a white face. They arrived without papers, too.

Anonymous said...
"Immigrants coming to our shores and blending into our society is just fine with me just as long as they come with papers in hand."
-Anon

Liquidmicro said...

Analisa,
While I can appreciate the time you spent writing your comments, I have to call you on almost everything you have typed. Obviously you did no research into anything you have said and you no not of which you speak.

Your first two comments were well thought out, I think everybody can appreciate that. But your third and each there after is nothing more than PRO rhetoric.

"Mexico did "embrace an illegal invasion of white people" with the Spanish conquistadors. The Mexican people and culture would not have evolved as they did without it. And let's not forget the Mexican War of 1848 - a REAL invasion. But you haven't really answered my question.

November 25, 2008 7:18 PM"

The invasion of 'white' people from Spain you say were 'embraced by the peoples of Central and South America' couldn't be farther from the truth. The actual 'peoples' were in conflict with neighboring tribes, the people that the Spanish 'befriended' won the battles against those they were fighting, thus creating an amicable presents in the beginning until the Spanish began to press their superiority, simply due to being more advanced in the ways of war with cannons, swords, and rifles. It wasn't a utopia.

Now for the 1848 Mexican American War. Are you aware of why it began?? Did you know that it was an Mexican uprising in which 7 Mexican States wanted to secede from Mexico, and Texas was the only one able to do so. It all started with Santa Ana and his abolishing the Constitution of 1824.

Please do your research before citing rhetoric.

Liquidmicro said...

"Analisa said...

Anonymous,

Some countries have more than one culture, language and heritage. Take Canada, for instance, which manages pretty well with its bicultural heritage: Anglo and French. Why is a foregone conclusion that one culture must dominate the other? What's wrong with sharing and appreciating different cultures, languages and heritages? Isn't that preferable to a model of dominance?"


Again, have you been to Canada, lived there, studied there, or have you even visited there??

Biculturalism

Even with the profound and complex diversity of Canadian society and the reality of multiculturalism, Canada does indeed have 2 principal cultures: that associated with the English language and that associated with the French. The two last censuses of the 1990s - in 1991 and in 1996 - revealed that more than 80% of Canadians living outside Québec use the English language at home while more than 80% of Canadians living in Québec use the French language at home. The two languages specifically targeted by the official languages law and the Canadian Charter of Rights are still politically and culturally dominant. But one should never forget that the English language, not only the French language, is heavily protected by federal institutions. There is a clear hierarchy of languages in Canada: English over French even in the sphere of official languages, and, outside Quebec, English over the other languages. Therefore, at the beginning of this century, it is still debated even inside the sphere of official bilingualism whether each - French or English - has fully equal opportunities for development. That debate culminated in the late 1980s and 1990s with the MEECH LAKE ACCORD and the Charlottetown Accord, both rejected, and after a second REFERENDUM in Québec on the sovereignty issue, held in October 1994. With the possibility of a third referendum in Québec soon after the year 2000, the unsolved consequences of biculturalism is still a key question in Canadian unity.

Liquidmicro said...

"Analisa said...

Anonymous,

We're coming up on the Thanksgiving holiday. Let's not forget that the first "illegal alien" had a white face. They arrived without papers, too."

After all of what you have said, you end with rhetoric?? I suggest you look to some of the skeletons that have been found in the USA and Americas. First the Kenewick Man of Washington, believed to be Anglo from 9,000 year sago, the Mummies of the caves of Utah and Nevada, Anglo with Red Hair dating back to 12,000 - 15,000 years ago, how about the Aboriginal skeleton found at the southern tip of South America?? Do yo only go back to where it benefits your argument?? What of the Chinese who founded the California coast in 490AD?? The Russians who found the Western Coast in 800AD?? The Vikings on the East Coast in 1000 AD?? If your going to go back as to who can lay claim here and call others "Illegal", why not go back to the beginning. Those who are now labeled as "Illegal Aliens" come from ancestors who sat down roots south of our border and created civilization some 4500 years ago, the Mayan, Aztec, etc. They were not nomadic people, so why then do they migrate north now?? Economic Benefits for themselves, not that they were here first, not that they are somehow related to the Indigenous of North America, as MtDNA shows that they are not. So lets drop the rhetoric of the Pilgrims as being the 'first "Illegal Aliens".

Liquidmicro said...

"Mexican people and culture would not have evolved as they did without it."

Is this a good or a bad thing?? How would they have evolved had the Spanish just left?? If the Spanish never came?? If English, or French, or Russian, or Asian had invaded, what would it look like south of the border now?? How would they then have evolved??

Dee said...

Analisa,
I agree.
We in America are evolving and thriving! So many ethnicities, cultures and races mixing into our American Quilt, so many stories and histories interwoven to create a beautiful mutiracial, multi-ethnic America!

Analisa said...
They are much like the peoples of this planet: alive and vibrant, constantly changing and evolving – no two alike. We get many of our place names in English from Spanish and from Native American words. We simply didn’t evolve in a vacuum. There are many groups who have contributed to America and American culture. So I guess I have trouble understanding why all of you ANTIs appear to prefer to live in a monoculture where so-called “white” culture predominates. Somehow, it just seems counterintuitive to survival.

Tamara said...

Anon, well said and I agree 100%.

Analisa,

Tell you what, when Mexico embraces an illegal invasion of white people or any other non-latino group en masse so that it changes, dilutes and alters their culture, dominant language and the demographics of its country, get back with us, ok?

Tamara said...

Gee, no answer Analisa? Why not? If I go to Mexico, I EXPECT them to embrace my language, my culture and my lifestyle wholeheartedly and WITHOUT question. In fact, I DEMAND it or I will find every white aiding and abetting org in that country to fight my cause. It is my RIGHT as an illegal alien in Mexico to demand they ignore their immigration laws for my benefit and the benefit of all whites who choose to break the immigration laws of Mexico by entering illegally.

Analisa said...

Liquid,

I'm sorry, I didn't see your posts before I left for the Thanksgiving holiday. I am going to try to answer all of your questions. I'll start with the question of archaeological "evidence" you cited...

What is this but rhetoric?? Did you offer any findings to back this up? If you don't like rhetoric, refrain from using it. It's simple: Practice what you preach!

"After all of what you have said, you end with rhetoric?? I suggest you look to some of the skeletons that have been found in the USA and Americas. First the Kenewick Man of Washington, believed to be Anglo from 9,000 year sago, the Mummies of the caves of Utah and Nevada, Anglo with Red Hair dating back to 12,000 - 15,000 years ago, how about the Aboriginal skeleton found at the southern tip of South America?? Do yo only go back to where it benefits your argument?? What of the Chinese who founded the California coast in 490AD?? The Russians who found the Western Coast in 800AD?? The Vikings on the East Coast in 1000 AD?? If your going to go back as to who can lay claim here and call others "Illegal", why not go back to the beginning." -Liquidmicro

Analisa said...

Okay, Liquid, let's suppose for the sake of argument that you can make a case for the archaeological discoveries you've cited. I'm not an archaeologist or an anthropologist...so I defer to your expertise in this area (isn't the Internet grand?). It's possible, I suppose. Yet, I have read historical accounts of this period, and I don't ever recall any mention of the fact that white people were among the indigenous tribes encountered by the first European settlers (unless they were adopted by a tribe). By all accounts, it's readily apparent that the Europeans who arrived in the "New World" during the colonial period saw America as a new, undiscovered virgin territory. Later, they tried to come up with a rationale for their territorial expansion, as well as the genocide of the native peoples and for slavery. So they hit upon the nifty little notion of "Manifest Destiny": the American correlate to "White Man's Burden." The way it appears to me, there's always some rationale for conquest. Then, the victors proceed to write history any way they like. You can sanitize it, but I still say that the first "illegal alien" had a white face. If you disagree, fine...but show me the evidence!

Analisa

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

Liquid,

On the issue of biculturalism, I am a perfect example of someone who is bicultural (tri-cultural, really). To you, it's an abstract concept, but I live and breathe it...so, please don't patronize me, Liquid.

As for the issue of Canadian biculturalism, I'm quite aware of the long struggle between the Anglos and French-Canadians over the issue of language and culture. I don't wish to simplify this issue. However, Canada has succeeded in working out a pretty good compromise, unlike so many countries which have devolved into war and ethnic strife (Lebanon, the former Yugoslavia etc.). So, it is possible to have a perfectly functioning bi-cultural society. It’s certainly preferable to strife and division.

However, this is a moot point, since most immigrant groups to America assimilate after a generation or two. They learn English, pick up the history and culture in school, and turn out to be every bit as American as the next person. There's not one group which hasn't done this after a couple of generations, including Mexican immigrants. Just personally, I think it would benefit us to be conversant in more languages and cultures than just one. We are perhaps the only developed nation that prides itself on being monolingual. Our ignorance of other languages and cultures is a joke among Europeans (shall I tell it to you, or has your wife already enlightened you?). As a teacher, I don't think it helps us to be this insular and provincial, nor does it help us to compete in a global context. In fact, it really makes little sense on any level.

Analisa said...

Liquid, Anon, et al,

When did the Mexican army invade? Gee, did I miss something? Oh wait, you mean that little brown seamstress hunched over her sewing machine. Or the humble brown man who picked the crops for your Thanksgiving dinner? Is that the invading army you're so worried about. Didn't Dee call you 'Chicken Liquid' one time? (rather a propos, if I do say so). Yes, the sky is falling, Chicken Liquid...civilization is coming to an end. Watch out for the invasion of the little brown seamstresses! Aaayyyyyy! ;-)

Analisa said...

Now, on the issue of the Mexican War...

Nice bit of revisionism, Liquid. Let me quote Ulysses S. Grant: “Wars produce many stories of fiction, some of which are told until they are believed to be true.”

It's intersting that Mexico or Mexicans are at always the ones at fault in your view (no matter what the evidence is). But you're going to have to do a better job if you wish convince anyone.

Grant called the Mexican War “one of the most unjust [wars] ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation.” As a freshman congressman from Illinois, Abraham Lincoln stated that the war with Mexico was nothing more than "naked agression.”

Many writers and intellectuals of the time opposed the Mexican War, including Thoreau and Emerson. But if you wish to rewrite history, I hope you enjoy your first foray into the realm of fiction.

Listen, I've noticed your strategy of derailing the main question by arguing about minutia. So, I won't get bogged down in a futile attempt to debate the issue of the Mexican War with you. That's a blog in itself. But again, where's your evidence, Liquid? Hmmm??

Analisa said...

Dee,

Thank you for your comment. I agree with you: I love all these stories and histories! Why would anyone want to have just one story - the "whitewashed" version?? That's not our history.

Dee said...

"I agree.
We in America are evolving and thriving! So many ethnicities, cultures and races mixing into our American Quilt, so many stories and histories interwoven to create a beautiful mutiracial, multi-ethnic America!"

Liquidmicro said...

What is this but rhetoric?? Did you offer any findings to back this up?


So I have to do your homework for you?? I gave you the info, you can google it just as easy.

Manifest Destiny has nothing to do with Texas and its cession from Mexico (1924 - 1948) during the time prior to Manifest Destiny. The US came in towards the end after Texas ceded (1948). I suggest you do some research on Texas. I already gave you the Mexican Constitution of 1824, now look at the Mexican Constitution of 1838. Study Santa Ana. Also look up Texian disillusionment. Here's some help.

"There's something about the Constitution of 1824 that was no longer being recognized by General Antonio López de Santa Anna Pérez de Lebrón who decided to abolish the Constitution of 1824 and proclaimed a new anti-federalist constitution in its place, the Siete Leyes of 1835.

Between 1829 and 1832, a series of Mexican presidents were killed in a series of coups. Santa Anna had a hand in each of these events. The Mexican Republic became heavily divided between two factions known as Conservatives, who were for a centralized monarchical government, and Liberals, who were for a democratic federal government. In the presidential elections of 1833, Santa Anna ran as a liberal and won. Soon after, Santa Anna retired to his hacienda, allowing Vice President Valentín Gómez Farías to run the country. The government initiated drastic liberal reforms, angering the Conservatives. Returning from his hacienda, Santa Anna renounced the government's policies and overthrew the presidency, forcing Gomez Farías and many of his supporters to flee Mexico for the United States. Santa Anna declared that Mexico was not ready for democracy, became an openly Conservative centralist, and appointed himself dictator. The War of Mexican Independence started after Napoleon invaded Spain in 1808, now Santa Anna fancied himself, the Napoleon of Mexico.

At the same time Texas declared independence, other Mexican states also decided to secede from Mexico and form their own republics. The state of Yucatán formed the Republic of Yucatán, which was recognized by Great Britain, and the states of Coahuila, Nuevo León, and Tamaulipas joined together to form the Republic of the Rio Grande. Several other states also went into open rebellion, including San Luis Potosí, Querétaro, Durango, Guanajuato, Michoacán, Jalisco and Zacatecas. All were upset with Santa Anna abolishing the 1824 Constitution, disbanding Congress, changing the structure of government from a federal structure to a centralized one, and the expulsion of the Spaniards. Texas, however, was the only territory to be successful in detaching itself from Mexico."


Texian disillusionment
"Texians were becoming increasingly disillusioned with the Mexican government. Many of the Mexican soldiers garrisoned in Texas were convicted criminals who were given the choice of prison or serving in the army in Texas. Many Texians were also unhappy with the location of their state capital, which moved periodically between Saltillo and Monclova, both of which were in southern Coahuila, some 500 miles (800 km) away; they wanted Texas to be a separate state from Coahuila (but not independent from Mexico) and to have its own capital. They believed a closer location for the capital would help to stem corruption and facilitate other matters of government. Some American immigrants and Mexican citizens were accustomed to the rights they had in the U.S. that they did not have in Mexico. For example, Mexico did not protect Freedom of Religion, instead requiring colonists to pledge their acceptance of Roman Catholicism; Mexican Law required a "tithe" paid to the Catholic Church. Cotton was in high demand throughout Europe and most settlers wanted to raise cotton for big profits. But Mexico demanded that the settlers produce corn, grain, and beef and dictated which crops each settler would plant and harvest. Unlike in the states of the Southern United States where slavery was legal, the status of slaves in Mexico was ambiguous. Although Mexico had officially outlawed slavery, the government was widely tolerant of the holding of slaves, but not their sale. Slave traders were thus unhappy with the limitations imposed upon them. Although these many issues caused friction, they were not to incite the settlers to revolt as a whole."


After all these are historical facts you should know.


Kennewick man:
Kennewick Man
or
Dead "Indians" Don't Lie


"The remains of one of the oldest North Americans ever found have been recovered in Washington state. The 9,300-year old skeleton is 90% complete and belongs to a Caucasian male about five foot ten inches tall."

Research Lovelock Cave and Spirit Cave for others.

Native American

Remnants of a human settlement in Monte Verde, Chile dated to 12,500 years B.P. (another layer at Monteverde has been tentatively dated to 33,000-35,000 years B.P.) suggests that southern Chile was settled by peoples who entered the Americas before the peoples associated with the Bering Strait migrations. It is suggested that a coastal route via canoes could have allowed rapid migration into the Americas.

The traditional view of a relatively recent migration has also been challenged by older findings of human remains in South America; some dating to perhaps even 30,000 years old or more. Some recent finds (notably the Luzia skeleton in Lagoa Santa, Brazil) are claimed to be morphologically distinct from Asians and are more similar to African and Australian Aborigines. These American Aborigines would have been later displaced or absorbed by the Siberian immigrants. The distinctive Fuegian natives of Tierra del Fuego, the southernmost tip of the American continent, are speculated to be partial remnants of those Aboriginal populations. These early immigrants would have either crossed the ocean by boat or traveled north along the Asian coast and entered America through the Northwest, well before the Siberian waves. This theory is presently viewed by many scholars as conjecture, as many areas along the proposed routes now lie underwater, making research difficult. Some scholars believe the earliest cranial anthropoligical origin/forensic evidence for early populations appears to more closely resemble Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders, and not those of Northeast Asia.


Is this enough 'back-up'??

Liquidmicro said...

"It's intersting that Mexico or Mexicans are at always the ones at fault in your view (no matter what the evidence is). But you're going to have to do a better job if you wish convince anyone."

It's funny how in your view Mexican/Hispanics/Latino's can never do anything incorrect nor wrong. It's funny how you can always lay the blame on the foot of the white man. Actually, I argued with Evelyn on this, she is more Brown Nationalist then you are, and she did agree with me.

I suggest you read the comments of this blog: Latina Lista

Analisa said...

Thank you, Liquid...I've got a family event to attend to tonight. So I'll copy this out and read it over later tonight. Then I'll answer you tomorrow. But please don't forget my original question to you or this puzzlement: "I guess I have trouble understanding why all of you ANTIs appear to prefer to live in a monoculture where so-called 'white culture' predominates."

I mean,wouldn't that be utterly boring?? Not to mention, it's a complete fantasy world. Part of what makes our history so dynamic is the interesting collision of cultures. As a writer, this fascinates me.

Liquidmicro said...

You are stuck at just the time period of 1848, the Mexican American War. Your problem is that you fail to understand what lead up to it. So I say again, go back to Santa Ana and the Constitution of 1824. I am fully aware of what Grant has said and a few others, yet where was Grant during that time (1848-)?? Fighting under General Taylor in Mexico.

Analisa said...

Never said that - show me where I made such a claim. Okay, I've got to leave now - I'm already late. But I look forward to your response.

"It's funny how in your view Mexican/Hispanics/Latino's can never do anything incorrect nor wrong."

Liquidmicro said...

"Analisa said...

Never said that - show me where I made such a claim. Okay, I've got to leave now - I'm already late. But I look forward to your response."



Oh, but you can accuse me of it when I never said such a thing??

Does this sound familiar??
"It's intersting that Mexico or Mexicans are at always the ones at fault in your view (no matter what the evidence is). But you're going to have to do a better job if you wish convince anyone."
November 29, 2008 8:41 PM

Liquidmicro said...

""I guess I have trouble understanding why all of you ANTIs appear to prefer to live in a monoculture where so-called 'white culture' predominates."

I mean,wouldn't that be utterly boring?? Not to mention, it's a complete fantasy world."


Why is it considered a 'complete fantasy' by you?? this country was founded on 'white culture' and remained so until the 1960's. Other 'immigrants' have added to our culture making it distinctive to just the USA, but that does not mean that other cultures are equivocal to the major culture of the USA. This country would cease to exist with two or three equivocal cultures. Already we have sub-cultures within the major culture, people divide themselves as already shown by nationality and Race. Cultures vary as to what they see as important, I say watch Iraq in the future, 3 cultures trying to masquerade as one country. Look to Belgium, 3 cultures, none of which agree on anything. Canada, doesn't agree on many things, I gave a link, did you read it? So then why should we allow our culture to be equivocal to others within our own country?? What is going to happen to those that don't like the culture that takes place where they live?? Are you going to force them to move or accept it?? Your bi-culture is nothing more than American white culture you live each and every day, mixed with your 'culture' at home or by going out to eat at a foreign food restaurant. Just because you can speak a foreign language or visit a foreign land and fit in, does not make you bi-cultural. You are living in a sub-cultural version of what you believe to be a bi-cultural vision.

Liquidmicro said...

"the "whitewashed" version?? That's not our history."

What exactly is 'your' version of History?? Especially since dads side is French and moms side is Portuguese. Both 'white' ethnically.

Analisa said...

Liquid,

Dee gave you a perfectly good working definition of culture. It DOES include music, literature, the arts, as well as philosophy, political thought, etc. I can't believe that any educated person would argue that it doesn't.

Dee said:
"Liquid,
Shall I now define Culture for you?

'Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate")[1] generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activities significance and importance. Cultures can be "understood as systems of symbols and meanings that even their creators contest, that LACK fixed boundaries, that are CONSTANTLY in FLUX, and that interact and compete with one another".'

Analisa said...

IMHO, Liquid, you still haven't refuted anything I said (with evidence):

'Liquidmicro said:
"This country was founded on 'white culture' and remained so until the 1960's." - Liquidmicro

Liquid, you gotta be kidding, right? Listen, I'm a writer, so I'll start there. Now, I love my Faulkner, Hemingway, Whitman, Dickenson, Thoreau, Emerson, F. Scott Fitzgerald, etc., as much as the next American. But aren't you leaving some folks out? Frankly, I can't imagine an America without Ralph Ellison, Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, James Baldwin, Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes, Richard Wright,

You've never heard of the Harlem Renaissance, I gather. Or to branch out from writing: the blues? jazz (a uniquely American art form invented by African Americans)? Nor the civil justice movements inspired by non-whites Americans like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr; Marcus Garvey, Frederick Douglas; Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta (the United Farmworkers Movement)? And too many others to name.

You mention Dylan's song "Desolation Row." But what about his most famous song ""Like a Rolling Stone"? Dylan says he based it on Ritchie Valens' "La Bamba"

"''Rolling Stone's' the best song I wrote,' he said flatly at the end of 1965."

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/6595846/like_a_rolling_stone

Dylan has acknowledged the influence of black blues musicians in his music as well.

I think you glossed over this part liquid (in your words - or the Wiki page you copied and pasted):

“Some tendencies that define modern Western societies are the existence of political pluralism, prominent subcultures or countercultures…increasing cultural syncretism resulting from globalization and human migration.” – Liquidmicro'

Liquidmicro said...

You fail to understand the argument. The culture of the USA is that of Western Culture, what you show as a definition is nothing more then defining what is culture. I never said that music was not culture, what I said was that music is a sub-culture. I can't believe, that you would deny my statements. You argue and imply that you know how I argue, the minutia points, however in your arguments you never comprehend the minutia. Now, I'll ask you as I have asked Dee, what 'culture" is it that you want to be equivocal to the Western Culture of the USA?? Keep in mind she has yet to actually answer that question specifically.

Liquidmiro said...

I gave the definition of Western Culture already, what are you trying to argue??

Liquidmicro said...

Your stuck on my wording 'white culture'.

What do you think white culture is??

It is Western Culture, originated with the Greeks and Alexander. Words can play mind tricks, try looking up the actual information of what it is before you argue on something you perceive as a racial argument.

Analisa said...

I don't deny that it's a highly important component of American culture. But it is only one aspect - there are many other influences that led to the unique fusion of cultures that compose our American culture (as opposed to European culture). You know, the Europeans admire us for our jazz and other aspects of our culture that come from one of the most oppressed gruops in American: black people. So, this is my 'version' of history: It is inclusive of all the groups who have contributed to our American culture (which was influenced by but distinct from European culture). We truly are a multicultural nation and have our own unique culture, apart from Europe. Suffice it to say that "western culture" has contributed much of importance, but it is only dominant because it was imposed on everyone else who was here: African Americans, Native Americans, immigrant groups from every corner of the globe.

"What are you trying to argue Analisa?? Are you trying to deny western culture is the dominant culture of the USA??"

Liquidmicro said...

I agree it was imposed on African Americans (who were slaves at the time) and on Native North American Indigenous, but Immigrants who came here came with the intent of assimilating into this culture, it was not forced upon them, they made the choice.

Liquidmicro said...

Nobody has denied that Immigrants have contributed to this culture. Our culture is unique to the USA, and we do have sub-cultures throughout the USA. Influences are visible through the sub-cultures. Look to the Southwest vs the Northeast vs the Northwest. They all have a defining Culture with variations on heritage, music, art, architecture, etc. So I pose the question, what 'culture' is it that your side wants that equals our dominant culture, western culture?

Analisa said...

Actually, I object to the word "dominant." You know, I'll bet that, as a little boy, you were one of those kids who had hard time sharing his toys - am I right? C'mon, fess up, liquid! ;-)

Liquidmicro said:
"Your stuck on my wording 'white culture'."

Analisa said...

I have no problem with western culture. I freely acknowledge it's greatness... Just don't see why we can't acknowledge the genius of other cultures that have contributed to America, as well. Just saying.

"Don't get involved in partial problems, but always take flight to where there is a free view over the whole single great problem, even if this view is still not a clear one."
- Wittgenstein

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liquidmicro said...

Quit worrying about spelling. We all miss keys now and then. I don't know if you were able to read my posts in the other topic prior to Dee deleting them or not. Why she did is beyond me.

Nobody has denied that we have sub-cultures in the USA, the question I had posed was based on Dee posting about wanting all 'cultures' to be equal. All sub-cultures can not be equal as they are based on different locations in the USA. Look to the northwest vs the southwest vs the northeast. However, we all have a common culture no matter its location within the USA, and that is Western Culture. Our Culture is based on Western Culture and has mutated to become distinct to the USA, nobody has denied this. We absorb many different cultural traits from immigrants, simply based on them immigrating to the USA. We try to accommodate all groups as equally as we can, and we want to allow further immigration into our country at a rate that doesn't overthrow any one part of our culture. As I said to Czech, should we allow Sharia Law because we allow Muslims into our country?? What would happen if we allowed a large number to immigrate and they create a local area within a state, begin to govern themselves according to their laws and then attempt to secede from the USA and create their own country?? Not saying this is imminent, but it could be a possibility.

Actually as a little boy I befriended many others and shared everything I had, friends would stay over all the time, pool, basketball, motorcycles, you name it.

Analisa said...

I don't view any one culture as 'superior' or 'inferior' to any other. Listen, many of the ideas that influenced our political institutions were floating around in other cultures as well. For instance, Montesquieu, the French philosopher, influenced our Constituion with his political treatise De L'Esprit des Lois (The Spirit of the Laws). The most famous chapter, on the separation of powers, inspired the U.S. Constitution. But the Iroquois had similar ideas: a representative government known as the Grand Council and a 'Constitution'
known as the Laws of Peace:

from Wikipedia
"In 2004 the U.S. Government acknowledged the influence of the Iroquois Constitution on the U.S. Framers."

Now, I know there's a big debate over whether the Iroquois really did influence our Constitution. Frankly, I have no idea. But one thing is sure, the Europeans weren't the only ones coming up with these ideas. Western philosophy is not alone is espousing ideals like freedom, democracy, separation of powers. Again, why not acknowledge the contributions of all the cultures who have contributed to America? Surely, we dont' have to be so pompous as to pretend that the only truly great culture is western culture. Share some of the love, liquid! You don't have to be scared... Hey, nobody's asking you to give up Shakespeare (who would want to?). Just acknowledge what's in right there in front of your face: many cultures have contributed their ideas, literature, art, music, cuisines - all the unique flavors that make up this beautiful country we call America. We need not be so pompous that we can't recognize this simple fact.

Liquidmicro said:
"Now, I'll ask you as I have asked Dee, what 'culture" is it that you want to be equivocal to the Western Culture of the USA??"-liquidmicro

Analisa said...

Frankly, I'm much more afraid of some of these militia groups who want to secede from the United States. The fact is, as I've pointed out before, every immigrant group has assimilated to American values and culture. It usually happens within a generation - two at the most. The kids learn English and pick up our values in school. I lived in France for two years, so I can tell you that this is also the case with the Muslim groups there (largely Algerian). Within a generation or two, they are more French than Algerian.

Liquidmicro said:
"What would happen if we allowed a large number to immigrate and they create a local area within a state, begin to govern themselves according to their laws and then attempt to secede from the USA and create their own country?? Not saying this is imminent, but it could be a possibility."

Liquidmicro said...

"Montesquieu, the French philosopher, influenced our Constituion with his political treatise De L'Esprit des Lois"

And he got his theories from where??, Western Culture that originated with the Greeks and Alexander the Great in 330 BC.

His theories came from his understandings of western culture.

Liquidmicro said...

I agree to a certain extent. Immigrants who come here with the desire to assimilate do in most instances within a generation assimilate fully. However, those, such as Illegal Aliens who come here only to work are not looking to assimilate, they only wish to work to better themselves or their families back home and tend to want to return there to retire. I am not saying all do that or that all don't do that. What I have proposed before is giving all Illegal Aliens H-2A visas and mandate the farmers use them as workers and provide for them for accepting the farm sub-sidies they receive for just that. Then if other business groups need workers they too can use visas, but they must first offer the job to an American Citizen at the market value for labor, not some minimum wage pay for a job that requires actual skill.

The problem as I see it is that business groups want cheap labor in order to rake in large profits by undercutting the competition who do not use Illegal Aliens. Make it fair to all across the board, no easy way to cheat the system. Because as it stands now, those who cheat and don't get caught are the beneficiaries of large profits.

Here's an example, I own a small business, I hire only legal workers and use e-verify. I have a set hourly rate I must make in order to remain in business and make a profit. Now Joe Blow comes in, highers undocumented workers, pays them cash, works for half the price I charge. He is able to buy a Mercedes, a house, a boat, etc within a short time.

Where is that fair to my business or my employees??

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

btw, Liquid, I finally got around to reading all of the material you gave me on the Mexican war, the archeological discoveries, etc. (Kennewick Man, etc). I think you’ve debated the Mexican War pretty exhaustively with Evelyn, and she did a good job of responding to your claims. In the end, “the truth lies somewhere in between” is probably the wisest thing that was said. Frankly, I don’t have the time to wade into this debate…it wouldn’t change your mind, anyway. But I did read through all the comments. So, thank you for all the research you've done - whether I agree with it or not.

It appears that there’s a bit of controversy over whether Kennewick Man was actually Caucasian or not, judging from the Wikipedia page. However, I’m not qualified as an archeologist, and I simply don’t have time to research it. I still don’t think it proves that the pioneers had a right to conquer the indigenous peoples during the Colonial period or take over their lands. Still, it’s interesting. So, thanks for sharing it.

You know, the best thing about all your research is that you've turned me on to Latina Lista and your brilliant and funny freind, Evelyn. You can tell her that she has a new fan. :-)

Liquidmicro said...

If you like Evelyn , you can see her daily on the Hispanic Business Forums along with her protege' Airesflora.

Analisa said...

I understand some of your resentment. Really, all we are asking for is a more compassionate approach to immigration enforcement. We want comprehensive immigration reform so we can stop the crueler manifestations of our policies on immigration. The current approach with these terrifying ICE raids, concentration-style camps in the desert with all the abuses and deaths, is not a compassionate approach to the problem of immigration. This is why we are asking for comprehensive immigraton reform - so we can stop some of the most egregious abuses.

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

Well, I wish I could stay and continue this conversation. Unfortunately, I have to prepare for my class tomorrow. But it's been fun. :-) Have a nice evening, Liquid.

P.S. some day you'll have to tell me your real name.

Liquidmicro said...

The point about the Mexican American War was that Santa Ana became a dictator and many Mexican states revolted and attempted to Secede, while Texas was the only one to do so. If you want to read further about that time period I would suggest reading about the Republic of Texas prior to it becoming a state within the USA.

The point about Kennewick man and the others is to show that there were others here during the time prior to the founding of the new world. The Chinese, the Russians, the vikings, etc. Some, as the article states, would have been later displaced or absorbed by the more populace societies.

As for the Native North American Indigenous, do some studying, many died prior to the coming of the Europeans to the new world simply because they encountered fisherman along the coast and became infected due to a different disease their immune systems were not aware of. I'm part Black Foot from South Dakota, 6 generations back. When yo study them you must first understand there demeanor as well. What you read about in history books is only partially correct, lots of information left out, both good and bad.

Liquidmicro said...

"Liquid, I tell you this story because you appear to have some bias against Jewish people."

You misunderstand the point of that argument. I have no bias towards Jews, it was a point that was made about a group, any group, the Jews being an example for which I pointed to Agriprocessors. Lets do this, re-read it now.

I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration of new large groups of any one ethnicity or race.

Whenever a large foreign group has settled in any great number into a new country, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; and have built up a state within the state.

Liquidmicro said...

"But you also miss the good in people when you're too quick to judge - that is, when you paint any group of people with the same brush based solely on their ethnic origins."

It's not about 'ethnic origins', Illegal Aliens have no ethnic origin as they come from all around the world and come from each and every race. I refer back to my business comment. I ask this, should I be forced to work for less, release my employees I can no longer afford, just to have someone else come in and put me out of business who is cheating the system?? What is then to happen to my wife, children, family??

Liquidmicro said...

"We want comprehensive immigration reform so we can stop the crueler manifestations of our policies on immigration. The current approach with these terrifying ICE raids, concentration-style camps in the desert with all the abuses and deaths, is not a compassionate approach to the problem of immigration. This is why we are asking for comprehensive immigraton reform - so we can stop some of the most egregious abuses."


This is where we differ. Your 'crueler' manifestations of our immigration policy is nothing more than capitalizing on the few accepted casualties. You make it sound as if this is a daily occurrence when it is not. You equate detention centers to concentration-style camps when they are nothing more than holding facilities of people in violation of Federal Laws. Who is terrified from ICE raids?? Surely not those they catch, as they are aware that it could happen, the problem is that government has been so lax in enforcing our laws that when it does happen you end up in shock.

I can go on, but why. I am a firm believer that we, as individuals, are responsible for our own actions and that we make our own choices fully aware of any outcomes that come from those actions and choices. Most Illegal Aliens come here knowing that someday they may get caught and sent back home, most had no fear of it until recently when the government started pushing and enforcing our laws. Now the Illegal Aliens can spend time in jail for their actions, until this becomes common practice, they will continue to come. We must enforce our laws.

Liquidmicro said...

Here is some hopefully helpful insight, please don't be offended by it.

In regards to Evelyn, she is a internet jockey. She uses google and key words to argue her side. She has NO understanding of actual history, nor its context. Much like you with the Mexican American War or the North American Indigenous. Dee always harps about knowing history, however when confronted with it in its context she is lost. She bases her knowledge on movies she has seen, and the couple of books she has read that are biased to begin with.

You are very well read in literature, you borrow from it when you write your stories, and one can see who are your influences from that. However, until you understand history in its context, you are just repeating the rhetoric of a biased view. Manifest Destiny comes to mind. Are you aware that it was the Southern Democrats that believed in Manifest Destiny?? That it was nothing more than an ideal created by John L. O'Sullivan in 1845 in his writings. O'Sullivan wanted to annex the Republic of Texas, which was an established nation recognized by the English, French, and the USA as a sovereign nation. Texas was a Republic for some time after succeeding from Mexico. There were 4 Presidents in the Republic of Texas spanning 12 years before being annexed by the USA.

So please, before you jump to the rhetoric of biased information of either side, learn the actual history and understand it. I love history and have been reading about it for the past 25 years, it should be somewhat obvious in my writing style vs. your writing style. Don't become so rabid as Evelyn, to where you become biased to anybody else or the full understanding of Americas history.

Analisa said...

Liquid,

I appreciate all the beautiful poetry you’ve been posting to my wordpress blog. However, I’ve decided to block you from my site until you can be more civil to Dee. I wish I had a dollar for every time you’ve insulted her intelligence. It’s unacceptable to me. Please don’t think you can play a game of “divide and conquer” with us. I’m on to your strategies.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said:
"Analisa actually has understood the discussion quite well and is able to intelligently argue it, unlike your's or Czech's intellectual disability."-Liquidmicro

immigrant investor visa said...

These numbers have one significant problem. They are not percentage based, but rather quantitatively based. We need to see these numbers as compared to the rising population of Latinos. In that light they would probably be less shocking. They are still rising at an alarming rate, but not quite as alarming as these numbers make it seem.

Anonymous said...

Hi,

I have a inquiry for the webmaster/admin here at immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com.

Can I use some of the information from this post above if I give a link back to your site?

Thanks,
Oliver

Dee said...

Yes.

Page Hits