Wednesday, December 24, 2008

Another Latino Hate Crime: "I Wanna Stick me a Cuban or Puerto Rican! I Don´t Like Minorities!"

Another Hate Crime Against a Latino occurred last Sunday! "I wanna Stick Me a Cuban or Puerto Rican!"
Are the internet Immigration (legal and illegal) Hate Sites motivating these murderers and attackers to blame all of their woes on Latinos?
Quote from Tom Tancredo on Nov. 18, 2006 while in Palm Beach, "Miami is a 3rd World County."
PalmBeachPost.com reports:
LAKE WORTH, FL — Drunk and upset his wife had shocked him with a stun gun, Randy Lee Cramer slashed a man's throat with a knife on Sunday, authorities said in documents made public this morning. And, because the 51-year-old Lake Worth man said he wanted to "stick me a Cuban or Puerto Rican," he faces a hate-crime charge in addition to an aggravated battery charge, according to his arrest affidavit. Cramer was arrested late Tuesday after Palm Beach County Sheriff's Detective James Evans linked him to the attack, which, Evans wrote, unfolded this way:
After arguing with his wife, Cramer stormed out of his South Palm Way apartment and went to Bryant Park, where he accosted a Hispanic man standing on a dock. Drawing a knife, Cramer said, "I don't like minorities," and he slashed the Hispanic man's throat.
The man was taken to Delray Medical Center, where he underwent emergency surgery for a 4-inch wound before speaking to the detective.

74 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

I'm willing to bet that the mans wife was a 'minority'.

Dee said...

Why would that make a difference?

and

Why do you think that?

Dee said...

I am trying to understand the motivation for these crimes.

I think it may be related to all the negative talk on the internet related to Immigration (legal and illegal).

Liquidmicro said...

He gets mad at his wife, loves her to much to take it out on her, so in turn, takes it out on those he feels represent her.

Dee said...

I am going to follow this story. I do want to know why.
In any case, the poor innocent victim was just standing on the dock. Such a shame!

Anonymous said...

There is no negative talk about legal immigration. Only illegal immigration. What are we supposed to do restrict freedom of speech about a negative issue affecting our country today to protect illegal invaders and their aiders and abettors?

theczech said...

"There is no negative talk about legal immigration."

That's an easily refuted claim.

To get a taste, go here or here. Or conduct a simple google search of your own.

"Only illegal immigration. What are we supposed to do restrict freedom of speech about a negative issue affecting our country today to protect illegal invaders and their aiders and abettors?"

Nice. I like the resort to hiding behind "freedom of speech". That's not a tired tactic. Also, again with the deliberate obtuseness. I still can't tell if it's an act, or if it's unintentional.

I don't know how America can handle another hate crime! I don't know why I continue to be surprised at anti-immigrant types who perversely use hate crime posts as a chance to push anti-immigrant agendas! I refuse to believe that being anti-immigrant requires a lack of compassion for human life, I just lack evidence to support my belief.

Dee said...

Czech,
You and I and most Americans understand and freely admit the fact there is negative talk about illegal immigration by the ANTI hate sites. The ANTIs know they do this but they attempt to deny it.

What is wrong is that these hate crimes have a direct link to all of the negative, anti immigration (legal or illegal) talk. Then the fringe on their side commit these heinous crimes (attacks and murders!).

Their side Refuses to admit their culpability. They pretend or hide under the cloak that all on their side are only talking about the breakage of the (civil) law related to illegal immigration. Not true.

Anonymous said...

czech,

The first article you linked to is about opposition to illegal immigration not legal. However there was some concern about immigrants coming here from known terrorist countries. The second article was mere opinion. Nice try but you didn't prove at all that Americans are opposed to legal immigration.

Who is hiding behind freedom of speech? I haven't a clue what you are talking about. No one needs to hide behind it because it is a part of what this country is about. Your side would like law abiding Americans to shut up about the negatives of illegal immigration even though they are the facts.

Who is pushing an anti-"immigrant" agenda? Not one person in this blog! Not one person who is anti-illegal immigration either. Why can't your side use the right terminology and debate with honesty?

Your side are the ones constantly using examples of hate crimes to gain sympathy for legalization for illegal aliens who just happen to be Latino. How many examples have been posted in this blog alone? It is your side who is pushing an agenda, not ours.

I have plenty of compassion for human life as do most anti's. Most of us are opposed to violence against anyone and those who commit it should be punished to the full extent of the law. But that compassion does not extend to granting illegal aliens amnesty nor stopping the enforcement of our immigration nor telling the truth about how illegal immigration affects this country negatively. That is what really bothers you pro-illegals so you demonize our side every chance you get.

Anonymous said...

Dee said...
Czech,
You and I and most Americans understand and freely admit the fact there is negative talk about illegal immigration by the ANTI hate sites. The ANTIs know they do this but they attempt to deny it.

What is wrong is that these hate crimes have a direct link to all of the negative, anti immigration (legal or illegal) talk. Then the fringe on their side commit these heinous crimes (attacks and murders!).

Their side Refuses to admit their culpability. They pretend or hide under the cloak that all on their side are only talking about the breakage of the (civil) law related to illegal immigration. Not true.

So all anti sites are "hate sites"? I am sure if there are any they don't represent most anti sites then. Besides whether some be hate sites or not, telling the truth about the negatives of illegal immigration is a fact and one certainly should be able to state facts without insinutating that it incites violence.

People have minds of their own. Most people seek out truth on their own. It is only a few nutcases that act in a violent manner and they don't do so because someone has incited them. They already have a violent nature.

So again what you are saying is for Americans to stop telling the truth because of a few nutcases out there. Freedom of speech should be restricted even when it is the truth being spoken?

I am sure that most Americans are opposed to child molesters also and they talk about the negatives of such a crime on certain sites. Should Americans stop talking about it because of the few nutcases that are going to go after a child molester and harm him or even kill him?

theczech said...

@Anon:
What you said:
"There is no negative talk about legal immigration."

My response to your statement was to provide two articles including negative talk about legal immigration.

Your response:
"Nice try but you didn't prove at all that Americans are opposed to legal immigration. "

You see what went on in that exchange? I wasn't trying to prove all Americans are opposed to legal immigration. I proved that it is easy to dig up negative talk about legal immigration, refuting you initial statement.

Your tactic here is called "moving the goal posts".

theczech said...

Oops, And Another Thing!

Anon: "Who is hiding behind freedom of speech? I haven't a clue what you are talking about. No one needs to hide behind it because it is a part of what this country is about. Your side would like law abiding Americans to shut up about the negatives of illegal immigration even though they are the facts."

Commenters on liberal-leaning blogs who aren't liberal-leaning often use the "freedom of speech" tactic to try and discredit a position. Thing is, Dee & I have a different opinion than you. We are expressing it and trying to convince you to join our way of thinking. If we don't like the opinions you express, we're going to say so. Where is your freedom of speech being violated?

Anonymous said...

No, my "tactic" was to make you see that a few hate crimes against Latinos or any other ethnic group does not require the deep concern and ire that is being displayed in this blog and that these hate crimes are being carried out by nutcases, not the majority of Americans. You also try to tie this all in to the whole anti side and claim that these nutcases are being swayed by the FACTS of illegal immigration and therefore they shouldn't be spoken about. Hate crimes have been going on since time began and that will never change. What bothers me is the way you and Dee try to use these hate crimes to scream racial profiling and act like Latinos are being singled out or discriminated against more than any other ethnic group. I even gave Dee advice on how to help prevent the hate crimes against her particular group and that was for Latinos to support deporting all illegal aliens and stand shoulder to shoulder with law abiding Americans and support enforcement and border security but your side won't do that. So you reap what you sow and then cry about it. If someone doesn't take the obvious necessary steps to prevent something, then they get no sympathy from me.

The pro side is always trying to restrict freedom of speech on the anti side by calling it hate speech and have all kinds of so-called "immigrant" rights groups seeking to silence us and you damned well know it!

Anonymous said...

Also you are claiming that you and Dee aren't trying to deny freedom of speech but all the while you are claiming that is exactly what is driving these hate crimes. You erroneously label facts about illegal immigration and the right to express them as hate speech and advocate that they be stopped. So yes, you are suggesting that freedom of speech be denied to the anti-illegal, pro-legal side.

Anonymous said...

Pro-illegal commentator said:

"We are expressing it and trying to convince you to join our way of thinking. "

See, the thing is we will never join you and dee and become pro-illegal. People for legal immigration will never see how you can defend illegal immigration. Perhaps, one day you and dee will see the light and value being an American citizen. Maybe, just maybe.

Dee said...

Anon,
Try READING the article.
This man said, "I wanna stick me a cuban or a puerto rican."

Both groups are LEGAL citizens!
Additionally, what does a Puerto Rican or Cuban look like? They look like a person with brown skin color. They could be legal or illegal. They could come from ANY Country. THIS IS WHERE THE RACIAL PROFILING COMES IN! THEY ATTACK ANYONE BROWN!!
Your side expounds HATE towards Illegal Immigrants. The Beaner Stompers, the Cuban-PR Slashers were motivated by the HATE SITES to HATE whomever they PERCEIVE as ILLEGAL!! BUT YOU CANNOT TELL BY LOOKING AT THEM... so they Stomp or Slash or Murder ANYONE walking around THAT IS BROWN!! That is called Racial Profiling!! And YOUR SIDE perpetrates these actions!

DO YOU GET IT NOW?

Anonymous said...
Nice try but you didn't prove at all that Americans are opposed to legal immigration.

Vicente Duque said...

Brutal Murders of Hatred :

Luis Ramirez, Shenandoah, Pennsylvania, July 2008
Marcelo Lucero, November 2008, New York
Jose Sucuzhanay, December 2008, New York

And many others kicked, beaten, stabbed and seriously injured.

I find two metaphors for all these murders, kicking and beatings of 2008 :

The Big Apple became a Clockwork Orange.

We are now living again in the times of Sparta and the Hellots. This underclass was fair game for the Spartan Warrior Class, they could legally, hunt, beat, kick and murder the Hellots.

Stealing and Murdering was encouraged and was part of "education" in Sparta.

You find here numerous hate crimes against many races and sexual orientations :

Raciality.com

Vicente Duque

Anonymous said...

Vincente,

The point I keep making and it goes right over your head, Dee's and czech's head it that these hate crimes do not represent the actions or feeling of most Americans whether they be anti's or not. I am sure I could post just as many hate crimes where a hater said "let's get whitey or the N word. You and Dee, etc. like using the "hate" word to describe any American's opposition to illegal immigration when hate isn't the emotion that describes most American's feelings about illegal immigration nor do they advocate violence against them. Why do you lump all anti's together that way? "Our" side represents some radicals but most rational on illegal immigration. Could we say then that all of "your" side then advocates reconquista and a hatred for white people? Do you see where I am coming from with this? Probably not!!!

Dee said...

Anon,
Here is where YOU are missing it AGAIN!

I never talk about MOST AMERICANS!!
I talk about the ANTIs and they are NOT MOST AMERICANS!

ANTIs (like you) are the people who get into such a hate filled frenzy and in an uproar over who they term as "illegal immigrants." They can´t tell WHO an ii is by looking at them. They THINK they know, but instead they think ALL Latinos are ii´s. The ADL has said anti hate groups include fair, numbersusa, alipac, stormfront, nsms and others.
The problem with these hate sites is those members who are already unstable are pushed over the edge and their hate is encouraged by these hate sites. They get into this group think and their hate is encouraged by other members. On these sites, they blame ALL THE ILLS on the world on ii´s. It is pitiful!!


Anonymous said...
The point I keep making and it goes right over your head, Dee's and czech's head it that these hate crimes do not represent the actions or feeling of most Americans whether they be anti's or not.

Anonymous said...

What an outright lie that MOST Americans who are anti's (opposed to illegal immigration)commit acts of viiolence against people of brown skin!!! Why do you lie like that? Don't include those that do that as representing OUR side in general. How many times do I have to tell you that????????????? How dare you lump us altogether like that! How blatantly dishonest of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

You can't even comprehend what you are reading for God's sake! Again, what I stated it that those Americans that are anti's for the most part are not the radical, nutcases who commit hate crimes. Those are the radical few. Quit trying to claim that they represent the rest of us anti's because they don't! Funny how you wouldn't address my remark that if you are going to claim that, then I should be able to claim that the pro side are ALL made up of reconquistas then! Do you not even see your own hypocricies and lies to chastize a whole group for the sins of few????

Vicente Duque said...

A Bunch of Losers"

The mechanics of hate is always similar. The wife of an "Imperial Wizard" that left the Ku Klux Klan and repented, said that the Klan is nothing but a bunch of losers. Read our pages and you will find that case.

This goes according to the Theories of Alfred Adler, 100 years ago, Adler was a pupil of Sigmund Freud and he said that Inferiority Complexes, Inadequacies, and feelings of being nothing and inferior generate a lot of Violence, Resentment and Hatred.

It is very convenient to chose a victim, the "Other" and the "Otherness". You project your own mental dirt and filth in others outside. That is the Psychoanalytic Mechanism called "Projection" by Freud and Friends.

Hitler used a language filled with dirt and filth to discharge in the Jews his own failures in life. His own inferiority of being almost a beggar in Vienna, leaving in a Poorhouse, and later in Munich selling small postcards and being almost nothing in German Society, until he started to Preach Hate, Revenge and Resentment, and there were a lot of people ready for such discourse.

So when someone is nothing, a fool, an intellectual idiot, it is very convenient to invent a "Superior Race" or "Nation" to feel that you are something, and that you belong to something.

For those that are nothing, it is a great pleasure to hate. Inventing Mythical Pasts, Great Aryan Nations that never existed, and lots of Jingoistic and Chauvinistic Foolishness to fill an empty brain. Militarism and Jingoism have driven many nations to overextension, overstretching and final chaos and destruction.

In the end nothing is left but "a bunch of losers"

Raciality.com

Vicente Duque

ultima said...

Whew, this is getting pretty terse! Instead of a reasonable attempt at dialogue the focus appears to be on a few heinous crimes. Violence is a part of every society and it is certainly not unusual for it to be focused on a Honky, Black, or Brown simply because of their appearance. However, to put this in perspective perhaps someone should post the story about the guy in Covina who killed nine in a snit over a divorce.
Anon is right about the anti-America crowd’s strategy to characterize all pro-America movements as violent, encouraging violence, promoting hate crimes, racist, nativist, restrictionist, or bigoted. I don’t believe that is so and a few isolated hate crimes prove nothing. Each may be motivated in a different way. So why does anyone want to continue this useless argument instead of focusing on what we can do of a positive nature to alleviate the problem. One has to realize that the causes of such problems are never simple nor a one way street.
Some portray any attempt to limit legal immigration consistent with our ability to assimilate and provides jobs for them as “anti-immigrant”. Perhaps in some non-pejorative sense it is. But that is a gross oversimplification that ignores many cogent facts:
1. Our immigrant past does not require us to continue a policy that has long outlived its usefulness, at least in terms of millions of new immigrants each year. Limiting the numbers to what we can reasonably accommodate now that our country is fully settled and developed should be viewed as a positive thing not something to be ashamed of or rejected out of hand.
2. The limit of finite natural resources per capita as population grows without bounds is zero. This alone is a sufficient rationale for limiting legal immigration and illegal aliens to what our economy needs and to those individuals who are most likely to serve those needs whether they be migrant workers or highly educated, innovative scientists.
3. I note with some satisfaction that immigrants from India are generally among the most welcomed group. Why is this? They don’t look like Northern Europeans. Americans have embraced India because they have had a largely positive experience with Indians in America. They are extremely polite, hardworking, bright, well-educated, and perhaps most of all they are able to communicate with Americans because they speak English and they highly value the English language as the language of commerce and business and essential to success.
4. No one knows what Americans think in detail about illegal aliens. The surveys never do justice to this issue because the questions asked are never comprehensive in the sense of giving the responders the full spectrum potential answers. I believe if that were done we would have a clear picture that Americans in general believe in the rule of law and that illegal aliens should be returned to their homelands until they can re-enter legally like all legal immigrants. Having said that, I have no way of proving it in the absence of a comprehensive survey. Some employers would certainly want to retain their foreign workers if they could continue to hire them at substandard wages and benefits. Others would argue that those they have come in contact with are hardworking decent people and would not want to treat them unfairly or inhumanely but in the end might still opt for some level of repatriation as essential to re-establishing our national sovereignty and putting some teeth into securing the borders.
5. I touched on natural resources above. They include water and arable land. One cannot continue to subdivide these resources and still maintain the same standard of living and quality of life. We need only look to China and India as proof of this.
These are just a few of the things the anti-America movement chooses to ignore in favor of broad negative characterizations of those who understand and appreciate these good and substantial reasons for controlling our borders, vigorously and continuously engaging in internal enforcement, and limiting legal immigration to our needs. It is very suspicious when the above facts are ignored by those who profess to be Americans and love our great country.

Anonymous said...

Vincente,

And what does your drivel have to do with the MAJORITY of Americans who merely want our immigration laws respected and enforced? Nothing! Just more words used to demonize law abiding Americans who are not violent in nature and don't hate any particular group by trying to make it appear that they are ALL nutcases and racists. Really disgusting and hateful!

Minute Man Pete said...

Is Ultima God?

Ultma wrote: 1. Our immigrant past does not require us to continue a policy that has long outlived its usefulness..."

Simply because you say it is so?

Limiting the numbers to what we can reasonably accommodate now that our country is fully settled and developed..."

I wish you could tell that to all the developers so they can stop developing all the open space.

MInute Man Pete said...

Ultima is God?

2. "The limit of finite natural resources per capita as population grows without bounds is zero. This alone is a sufficient rationale for limiting legal immigration and illegal aliens..."

Ah, one of my fellow FAIR comrades.Actually, we do not need any rationale, just keep them all out. We got ours and heck on them.

Minute Man Pete said...

Ultima is God?

3. I note with some satisfaction that immigrants from India are generally among the most welcomed group. Why is this? They don’t look like Northern Europeans. Americans have embraced India because they have had a largely positive experience with Indians in America. They are extremely polite, hardworking, bright, well-educated, and perhaps most of all they are able to communicate with Americans because they speak English and they highly value the English language as the language of commerce and business and essential to success.
****************************

You answered your own question. They do "look" like something we are familiar with. Don't we just hate how all those " ellagals" lack any of our language skills? We also love how the Indian middle class and educated come here and not their lower caste. We would sure hate it if the uneducated and poor Indians came here. At least they would speak English.

Minute Man Pete said...

Ultima is god?

4. "No one knows what Americans think in detail about illegal aliens..."

I am glad you are here to tell your fellow patriots and true Americuns the true details.

"The surveys never do justice to this issue because the questions asked are never comprehensive in the sense of giving the responders the full spectrum potential answers..."

Yeah, don't ya hate it when they aren't all written by FAIR?

"I believe if that were done we would have a clear picture that Americans in general believe in the rule of law and that illegal aliens should be returned to their homelands..."

I Love yer agenda.Try not to hide it next time.

I have no way of proving it in the absence of a comprehensive survey. Some employers would certainly want to retain their foreign workers if they could continue to hire them at substandard wages and benefits.

Gotta love that unregulated kapitalism baby. wink. wink.

Minute Man Pete said...

Ultima is God?

5. "I touched on natural resources above. They include water and arable land. One cannot continue to subdivide these resources and still maintain the same standard of living and quality of life."

Yep. I agree. I love our kwality of life. I love the traffic jams, the air pollution, an our dependency on foreign oil.

We dont need to lissen to those liberal, elite, tree-hugging green people who want us to develop walkable, self-sustaining communities.

The heck with those environmental extremists who want to develop alternative sources of energy. I thought we voted down alternatives with prop 8???

And what is this Kyoto thing? Is this a Kung Fu movie? yeah, like Bruce Lee is gonna stop the make believe global warming.

We dont need to find real solutions to our problems when we all know that those darn ellegals are to blame for all the bad in our great nation!!!

Traffic jams, air pollution, and our dependencies on foreign oil is the fault of those immigrants anyway


" It is very suspicious when the above facts are ignored by those who profess to be Americans and love our great country."

If you aint FAIR you aint all there.

ultima said...

"Ultma wrote: 1. Our immigrant past does not require us to continue a policy that has long outlived its usefulness..."

Simply because you say it is so?"

So you think our immigrant past requires us to continue a policy that served us well when a vast unsettled continent lay before the Founding Fathers and their successors with natural resources that seemed unlimited at that time. There is nothing that requires us to that policy and if you don't know that you have a lesion on your brain.

ultima said...

You'll note, if you read my post carefully, which is in doubt, that I did not propose to end legal immigration but rather limit to what number and skills best serve our needs. Godlike, no! Entitled to my opinion,yes!

ultima said...

Who is this person with the anachronistic moniker of Minute Man Pete? Tell us about yourself so we can understand your diatribe.

ultima said...

"Yeah, don't ya hate it when they aren't all written by FAIR?"

Instead of all this blather about FAIR, why don't you enlighten us with a list of the neutrally designed questions you would ask? The more you submit the better.

ultima said...

MM Pete wrote, "Yep. I agree. I love our kwality of life. I love the traffic jams, the air pollution, an our dependency on foreign oil."

I am an environmentalist and that is one of the main reasons for opposing illegal aliens and millions of legal immigrants. Our population is expected to double again by the end of this century. According to the UN, Americans produce 20 metric tons of pollutants per year. That means if we add 300 million to our population, we will produce another 6 billion metric tons of pollutants annually at the present rate. Even if we were able through some technological miracle to cut our output per capita by half to the current level of Mexico, we would not have made any progress on the present level of output or even come close to the Kyoto protocols.

ultima said...

MM Pete wrote, "I wish you could tell that to all the developers so they can stop developing all the open space."

I wish I could too. They will keep developing open space as long as there is a demand. Your point of view will continue or increase the demand, in fact double the demand by the end of this century. You have a faulty argument here. A major part of the solution to all the problems you cite is population stabilization. Population-driven economic growth is ultimately unsustainable. Don't take my word for it, research it yourself if you have the capability to think outside the FAIR box you got yourself into.

ultima said...

mm Pete wrote, "" It is very suspicious when the above facts are ignored by those who profess to be Americans and love our great country."

If you aint FAIR you aint all there."

It has nothing to do with FAIR. Just stick with the facts and they will convince you unless you have a one track mind.

ultima said...

MM Pete wrote, "Ultima is God?

2. "The limit of finite natural resources per capita as population grows without bounds is zero. This alone is a sufficient rationale for limiting legal immigration and illegal aliens..."

Ah, one of my fellow FAIR comrades.Actually, we do not need any rationale, just keep them all out. We got ours and heck on them."

I noticed you had no rational response to the basic post, just trash talk about FAIR. Typical of your crowd.

Vicente Duque said...


Latest Developments on the murder of Luis Ramirez in Pennsylvania, July 2008 :

Racist lady says Luis Ramirez is responsible for his own death.
The Terrorists ask to be free of all charges.
Sadistic Cruel Gang of Teens killed Luis Ramirez in July of 2008.
The death by beating and kicking occurred in Shenandoah, Pennsylvania.
Many people in that town blame the victim for his own death.
And organize rallies and demonstrations against Latinos.
They consider the murderers as "Honor Students" and "Nice Kids".
The wife of the murdered Luis Ramirez is Crystal Dillman and was left with three kids to raise alone, and a lot of hate against her in that Pennsylvania town.

Follow this story and dozens of other stories of IMPUNITY, especially in New York City.

Raciality.com

Vicente Duque

ultima said...

mm Pete wrote, "Ultma wrote: 1. Our immigrant past does not require us to continue a policy that has long outlived its usefulness..."

Simply because you say it is so?"

Of course not but I see you are unable to make a case to the contrary. It's clear you simply don't understand the problem and even if you did you would have no solutions except business as usual.

ultima said...

MM Pete says, "They do "look" like something we are familiar with."

Hardly. I guess you have never seen one or been to an Indian restaurant. Please go now. Your education has been sadly neglected.

ultima said...

MM Pete says, "They do "look" like something we are familiar with."

Hardly. I guess you have never seen one or been to an Indian restaurant. Please go now. Your education has been sadly neglected.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "ANTIs (like you) are the people who get into such a hate filled frenzy and in an uproar over who they term as "illegal immigrants." They can´t tell WHO an ii is by looking at them. They THINK they know, but instead they think ALL Latinos are ii´s. The ADL has said anti hate groups include fair, numbersusa, alipac, stormfront, nsms and others."

Hmmm! That's interesting that ADL said, 'anti hate groups include fair, numbersusa, alipac, stormfront, nsms, and others.' Even if this is a misstatement of ADL's position, their opinion is no more valid than any other organization. If they are pro-immigration, pro-illegal, they are clearly biased in their judgment. I do not follow the blogs or positions of any of the cited except NumbersUSA which has never taken a position that could be construed as illegal alien bashing or legal immigrant denigration. It is simply a numbers game and their position is eminently reasonable since it applies equally to all regardless of ethnicity or country of origin.

The basic problem is that some want open borders, amnesty, an end to internal enforcement, and loosened immigration criteria and quotas. Others see this as the major threat it is to the country we love. There is no need for vituperation. We simply disagree but that does not have the kind of overtones that MM Pete, Dee and others keep trying to attribute to us. Let's get this back on track with more light and less heat, more facts and less name calling.

ultima said...

Some will note that my responses reflect the insults inherent in MM Pete's posts.

ultima said...

MM Pete wrote, "We dont need to lissen to those liberal, elite, tree-hugging green people who want us to develop walkable, self-sustaining communities.

The heck with those environmental extremists who want to develop alternative sources of energy. I thought we voted down alternatives with prop 8???"

Pete, you really do have a screw loose. I wager that most Americans support the development of all alternative energy sources as quickly as possible and all conventional sources as bridges to the future but with the condition that there will be adequate investment in alternatives. T. Boone Pickens has been effective in talking about that approach and weaning ourselves from Middle East oil ASAP before we bankrupt our country.

I'm having a hard time understanding how wind power will drive an airplace or even a combine. Some scientists admit that they think fuel cells represent the future but the discoveries necessary to make them produce adequate amounts of energy are way off in the future. At the rate an airplane burns fuel, I find hydrogen and ethanol questionable sources. Then there are all the petrochemicals that go into the medicinals and other products we have come to depend on. If it is possible at all, it will take a long time to wean us off those products.

An attempt was made at Davis CA to create a community of the type you mentioned. I'm not sure how it came out but I would guess that there are beaucoup autos there and people walk no more than is necessary.

In Colorado where I live, water is a critical resource as it is for all of the downstream cities of the Colorado River and its tributaries. Cities with burgeoning populations are buying up water rights leaving the land fallow with now way to grow the food demanded by those same populations. Fisheries, grain production, etc. per capita are already in decline. I wonder why that is. Do you suppose world and U.S. population growth has anything to do with it? Take the blinders off!

ultima said...

MM Pete wrote, "I thought we voted down alternatives with prop 8???"

What does Prop 8 have to do with alternative energy sources? Your facetiousness is misplaced.

Dee said...

Anon,
You certainly have a problem with reading comprehension. REREAD the sentence with the words THOSE MEMBERS. I did NOT say ALL MEMBERS.
Perhaps YOU should take a Reading Comprehension Class. It might Help YOU.
Here is what I said:
"ANTIs (like you) are the people who get into such a hate filled frenzy and in an uproar over who they term as "illegal immigrants." They can´t tell WHO an ii is by looking at them. They THINK they know, but instead they think ALL Latinos are ii´s. The ADL has said anti hate groups include fair, numbersusa, alipac, stormfront, nsms and others.
The problem with these hate sites is THOSE MEMBERS who are already unstable are pushed over the edge and their hate is encouraged by these hate sites. They get into this group think and their hate is encouraged by other members. On these sites, they blame ALL THE ILLS on the world on ii´s. It is pitiful!!"



Anonymous said...
What an outright lie that MOST Americans who are anti's (opposed to illegal immigration)commit acts of viiolence against people of brown skin!!!

Dee said...

Additionally, as I said, I never talk about MOST AMERICANS!!
I talk about the ANTIs and they are NOT MOST AMERICANS!

Dee said...

Ulty,
It is hard to admit the truth isnt it? Why is it so easy for your side to chastise ALL Latinos or ii´s over the traffic accident of one?
Don´t you hate it when the shoe is on the other foot?


Ultima said...
Anon is right about the anti-America crowd’s strategy to characterize all pro-America movements as violent, encouraging violence, promoting hate crimes, racist, nativist, restrictionist, or bigoted.

Dee said...

Ulty
Because we have finally picked up your tactic, you want to stop? You remind me of the bully who says to stop picking on him when those he picked on for years finally retaliate!

Ultima said...
So why does anyone want to continue this useless argument instead of focusing on what we can do of a positive nature to alleviate the problem.

Dee said...

Ulty,
The PROs are the PRO AMERICAN Crowd. Your ANTI side is ANTI American along with Rush Limbaugh and all of the rest of the Obama hating zealots.
I hate it when zealots like Limbaugh PRETEND they are PRO AMERICAN and wrap their ridiculousness in an American Flag! Shame on them!


Ultima said...
Anon is right about the anti-America crowd’s strategy to characterize all pro-America movements

Dee said...

Ulty,
The ANTI immigration rhetoric past and current has created an environment which has increased the level of ANTI Latino Hate Crimes to, as the FBI has reported, an ALL TIME HIGH!
These CRIMES MUST STOP!! That is the Purpose for my blogs about them! To STOP THESE HATE CRIMES!!

Ultima said...
1. Our immigrant past does not require us to continue a policy that has long outlived its usefulness

Dee said...

Ummmmm Ulty,
I doubt the Indian Immigrants would say the same! Their group is one of the other top Immigrant group with the highest rate of Race Crimes against them since 9-11. They are with me. We Want to Stop the HATE CRIMES!! To stop them you must 1st acknowledge they are occurring!!

Ultima said..
3. I note with some satisfaction that immigrants from India are generally among the most welcomed group.

Dee said...

Ulty,
FINALLY someone got you to admit all you share are your OPINIONS!!
(just like the rest of us!)
Woo Hoo!!

ultima said...
Godlike, no! Entitled to my opinion,yes!

Dee said...

Ulty,
I want to know more about him too!! I want to know his motivations!


ultima said...
Who is this person with the anachronistic moniker of Minute Man Pete?

Anonymous said...

Dee,

When you make statements like "anti's like me" are hate filled, etc. (and I am not, nor are most) you are indeed calling most anti's those names. You also constantly use the words "your side". You don't say "some" on your side you just make blanket statements like that about "our side". Don't try to back peddle now. So far you have made those remarks to every anti who has posted in your blog, including Ultima. I can tell he of all people in here is not a hate-filled anti and he represents the majority of us anti's feelings.

Try using the words "some" anti's instead of blanket remarks about "our side". Of course, we know that you are the belief that all anti's are hate-filled just because we want secure borders, internal enforcement of our immigration laws and no amnesties. Just admit it and you will feel better than trying to hide your hatred of all us anti's.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

According to the polls most Americans hold the anti view but even if that weren't true and us anti's were only 10% of the population, you would demonize all 10% of them because that is what you do in here. If only 1% of them were racists and committed hate crimes you would still say that about the entire 10% of them. You would still try to claim that all 10% are reading hate sites and acting on the words of others. Do you see what you are doing? It is very dishonest to lump entire group of people in with the miniority irrational ones. Do you get it now? I doubt it because you don't want to. You can't stand the anti's with a rational point of view either so you demonize us all.

Anonymous said...

Here is example of what I meant you are doing and that is making blanket statements about ALL of us anti's and yet you deny it? These are your exact words, Dee.

"Your ANTI side is ANTI American along with Rush Limbaugh and all of the rest of the Obama hating zealots."


Is this or is this not a blanket hateful statement about ALL of us anti's? I rest my case.

Dee said...

Anon,
You ARE Hate Filled!
None are so blind as they who will not see!! Try to see the light. Try to be accepting of all Americans of ALL Colors, and since YOU Have such a problem with LAtinos, I say try to be accepting of LATINOS!!


Anonymous said...
Dee,

When you make statements like "anti's like me" are hate filled, etc. and I am not

Dee said...

Anon,
Wrong Wrong Wrong!
Most Americans DO NOT think like you or the majority of ANTIS.
The only polls that say that are the slanted polls by racist groups like VDare or Worldnet Daily or other heinous ANTI sites.

Anonymous said...
Dee,

According to the polls most Americans hold the anti view but even if that weren't true and us anti's were only 10% of the population,

Dee said...

Anon,
The answer is simple. Do you REFUTE Rush Limbaugh as a Racist Zealot?
YES or NO

Anonymous said...
Here is example of what I meant you are doing and that is making blanket statements about ALL of us anti's and yet you deny it? These are your exact words, Dee.

"Your ANTI side is ANTI American along with Rush Limbaugh and all of the rest of the Obama hating zealots."

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Ulty,
FINALLY someone got you to admit all you share are your OPINIONS!!
(just like the rest of us!)
Woo Hoo!!"

Short memory my friend. Every time you have brought this up I have admitted that some of what I write is opinion but not all. I do provide facts when they are to be found just as you do. So let's agree on that and not bring it up again.

Dee said...

Well Ulty,
We do share our Opinions here.
I also share facts.

To the topic, I think you and I both agree these HATE CRIMES MUST STOP!!

Anonymous said...

So you are going to delete posts that expose your hypocricies about a civil blog with your own name calling and lies about others in here now?

Anonymous said...

If you are going to call others names in here (against your own rules) then you should at least have the decency to allow the person you are attacking to defend themself. You do believe in fair play, don't you?

Minute Man Pete said...

ultima is god posted 15 times after I did.

Sadly, he said nothing. What is more sad is he cannot recognize it.

What a way to spend a Saturday afternoon, fellow minute man. Master Simcox will be disappointed. You could have been protecting the borders with us.

Heil FAIR!

It is boring engaging in your narrow minded pretentiousness.

But I will see ya at the next hate rally brother.
***************
Betcha reply with at least a dozen posts in response to this.

So predictable.

Veins pop out yet?

Kick your dog?

Beat your inflatable doll up?

wink, wink. maverick.

The Arizonian said...

Actually, I was curious why you chose Tacredo's picture in your montage....

Making a statement or run out of pictures?

ultima said...

MM Pete has nothing useful to say so he continues to rely on nonsense and his own pretentiousness. Not worth any additional response.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "To the topic, I think you and I both agree these HATE CRIMES MUST STOP!!"

Of course! But is this wishful thinking? Hate crimes are not a recent invention. Interracial, ethnic, or racially motivated attacks are not a new thing. I mentioned previously the case of the German American who was lynched in Illinois. The Irish, Chinese, and many others have been subject such attacks. So while we all would like to feel secure in our homes and on the streets, we know we live in an imperfect world so we are careful where we go especially late at night. Some Whites hesitate to drive through ethnic neighborhoods.

None of this is intended to denigrate racially-motivated heinous attacks but to address those attacks we need to begin with a large dose of reality.

ultima said...

Dee said, "I doubt the Indian Immigrants would say the same!"

Here's a quote from Fareed Zakaria who was raised in India: "A stunning 71 percent of Indians said yes [to the question of whether they had a favorable impression of the U.S.]." Only Americans had a more favorable view at 83%.

Another quote: "An Indian parliamentarian once famously asked the then prime minister Indira Gandhi, 'Why is it that Indians seem to succeed everywhere except in their own country? Stories of Indians scaling the highest peaks in America have generated pride and emulation in India. Americans , for their part, have more readily embraced India because they have had a positive experience with Indians in America."

Dee said...

Az,
Nice Eye!
I put Tancredo in the pix because he made his "Miami is a 3rd world" speech in Palm Beach and this crime happened just down the street. The perp was probably in the audience. Hence "I dont like minorities!"


The Arizonian said...
Actually, I was curious why you chose Tacredo's picture in your montage....

Making a statement or run out of pictures?

Dee said...

Ulty,
My theory is, the more I write about these Hate Crimes, the more "heat" will be created in the media and passed on to the justice system so that the perps will be punished to the fullest extent of the law and their penalty will serve as a deterent so other quirky characters like Cramer will be afraid to commit these type of Hate Crimes again for fear of the penalty! Therefore, the end result will be to reduce these Hate Crimes! If it stops even 1 then I have served my purpose.


Ultima said..
None of this is intended to denigrate racially-motivated heinous attacks but to address those attacks we need to begin with a large dose of reality.

Dee said...

Ulty,
All the Americans of Latino descent I know Love America! If you took a survey, I am sure the survey of Latinos in America would say the same. Numerically, far more Latinos have contributed their lives serving our USA at war than any other minority, including Indian descent, not to take away anything from those from India. Just as an fyi, my ancestors from Spain had earlier immigrated from the Middle East somewhere before the 1500s the geneology tree says. So I relate to India and the Middle Eastern countries very well.


ultima said...
Dee said, "I doubt the Indian Immigrants would say the same!"
Here's a quote from Fareed Zakaria who was raised in India: "A stunning 71 percent of Indians said yes [to the question of whether they had a favorable impression of the U.S.]." Only Americans had a more favorable view at 83%.

Dee said...

So the point is Ulty, regardless of how much the ANTIs bash the Immigrants of most descents in our country, most come here because they love this country and want to improve their lives and the lives of their family.

Anonymous said...

well Randy Lee Cramer got 15yrs on a plea.. David Acosta was the man who got cut.

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