Tuesday, December 2, 2008

Globalization Leads to Evolving Multi Cultural Societies

Interwoven within the comment sections of my last several blogs, the topic of Culture has arisen. What is culture? Do we have one U.S. culture? Or, do we have an ever evolving, multi-cultural society?
Culture has been called "the way of life” for a society, including the arts, manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, games, norms of behavior such as law and morality, and systems of belief.
From the very beginning, the distinction between the East vs West cultures has been difficult to define with precision. The Greeks were not so different from their Eastern neighbors. In the later 20th to early 21st century, with the advent of increasing globalism, it has become even more difficult to determine which individuals fit into which category.
Today, globalism has spread western ideas so widely that almost all modern countries or cultures are defined by aspects of Western Culture. Geographically, countries defined as "Western Culture" include Europe, the Americas, Australia and New Zealand. Therefore, it can be said, Western Culture is an amalgamation of a variety of sub-cultures. Western culture tends to be more individualistic than non-Western cultures. It also sees man, God, and nature or the universe more separately than non-Western cultures. They may be marked by economic wealth, literacy, and technological advancement, although these traits are not exclusive to it.

Western culture is NOT homogeneous nor unchanging, however. It continues to evolve as components of sub-cultures become enmeshed into the overall cultural traits. Example 1: The originators of Western Culture, the Greeks and the Romans do not have the same cultural traits as Americans of the 21st Century today. Example 2: A remarkable social and cultural inversion has occurred in the last fifty years: where once Western culture was the monopoly of the upper classes, it now, more often than not, bubbles up from those on the ‘wrong side of the tracks’. This transformation has been especially evident in the world of style - with the authenticity of streetstyle challenging and then toppling the dictatorship of High Fashion.


One of my new Blog Favorites is “The Czech.” I visited her blog recently. She has a very interesting post titled “Wealth and Religiosity.”
As you scroll down, there is a chart from Columbia University depicting “Average Religious Attendance vs Average income", with an overlay depicting Red (Bush) vs Blue (Kerry) states. As Czech comments, “What is it about high religiosity that pairs it so often with poverty? Are those with low quality of life more likely to turn to religion as a consolation, or does a high level of religiosity in a society somehow impede its ability to maintain a strong economy and stable society?”
I think the chart also shows the differences in sub-Cultures across the USA. As I have said for so long, New York has a different culture than Atlanta, is different from Miami, is different from New Orleans, is different from Texas, is different for Las Vegas, is different from Kansas, is different from Michigan, is different from L.A. The differences include most cultural aspects, including: the arts, manners, dress, rituals, games, and to a degree, norms of behavior such as morality, systems of belief-religion, to a lesser degree language and law.
So as I study this map, the differences in the cultural aspects, the differences in income, influence and class, it is obvious to see our nation is comprised of a variety of sub-cultures, ever-evolving.

So the question becomes, why are so many so angry with the fact we have an evolving, multi (sub) cultural society that is ever evolving?
I believe the anger and the outrage originates from many of those who believe they are the Dominant Culture. Our society is a conglomeration of many subcultures. In the past, the Dominant Culture has been able, through economic and political power, to impose their preference of values, language, and behaviors on other subordinate cultures. However, the Civil Rights Movement and the end of the Jim Crow laws impacted their dominance. It has taken until now, forty years later, for the Dominant Culture to feel the impact of this CHANGE.
I came across a blog called “The Diversity Exchange” written by an HR expert. She said, “I have come to believe that (at least in the Western European empires) skin color DOES matter still, as do gender, age, social/economic class, physical abilities and more. Perhaps not as much on an individual-by-individual case as even a decade or two ago, but institutionally, it is evident when one looks at large organizations, whether commercial or non-profit. Just looking at photos and reading names of management and directors of various US organizations, the percentage of people who do not seem part of the “dominant culture” (i.e., white, male, Northern European background) is quite small. However, looking at the names, gender and skin color of most “workers,” I find great diversity. When I take public transportation, or park in public parking lots, I see and hear diversity. So what happens to these diverse people on the way to the boardroom? Presumably, organizations hire the best talent possible, provide the tools and training opportunities for personal and professional growth and then reward the top performers with additional remuneration and responsibility (i.e., promotions). Like others, I find it hard to believe that the only members of the dominant culture are top performers. It is hard for those who are part of the dominant culture to realize their societal advantages over others. White privilege, heterosexism, ableism, ageism and a whole host of other –isms exist whether we choose to recognize them or not.”

What we are facing today is some members of the current Dominant Culture of our country recognizing the Change that Globalism has brought to our country and to the World. They recognize this is a Train they cannot stop. Therefore they react with Anger, with Rage and with using every method in their power to Stop the Train. However, they are reluctant to voice their fear. Instead, they point to easy targets, to Immigrants (legal or illegal), they attack the messengers who speak the truth about Race and Diversity, they try to instill Fear and Hate and Anger, sometimes using AM Shock Jocks, the Christian Conservative Right and even empowering Hate Groups to do their dirty work for them.
The problem is, they do not want to admit the truth. They do not want to say they fear Diversity, Equal Rights, Women´s Rights, and the fact that all diverse groups, ALL men and women are created equal. They do not want to say they fear living in a world where White Northern European Males are NOT ALWAYS in Control.
References:
1. Culture
2. Dominant Culture
3. Western Culture
4. World Culture Encyclopedia
5. The Chez Blog
6. The Diversity Exchange
7. Streetstyle

115 comments:

Dee said...

I recognize this post will bring lively discussion. Please remember to abide by the Blog Rules.
1. STAY ON TOPIC!
2. Stay Civil
3. No name calling or abusive language.

Anonymous said...

The basics of the dominant culture in this country remain the same, however no matter how diversified we become racially and ethnically. It appears that is what bothers the blog owner here. This has nothing to do with equal rights either. No one is being denied their rights just because we do have a dominant and identifying culture in this country and we always have! The BASICS will never change.

Anonymous said...

Just an added point. Changing the BASICS of our culture should not be a desire by immigrants or the descendants of immigrants, otherwise why come here then or continue to live here? If our BASIC culture doesn't suit you, then go where you feel more comfortable.

Liquidmicro said...

"What we are facing today is some members of the current Dominant Culture of our country recognizing the Change that Globalism has brought to our country and to the World."


What is the Dominant Culture of our country??


"Therefore they react with Anger, with Rage"


Who has reacted with anger or rage??


"they attack the messengers who speak the truth about Race and Diversity"


How can anybody be attacked when you have yet to define the Dominant Culture of our country?? What truth is it that these messengers have spoken, when they have yet to define what the Dominant Culture of our country is??


"The problem is, they do not want to admit the truth"


And what is the 'truth' since you still haven't defined the Dominant Culture of our country??


"They do not want to say they fear living in a world where White Male Northern European are NOT ALWAYS in Control."


Is this your definition of Dominant Culture of our country??

Liquidmicro said...

Cultures within a society

Large societies often have subcultures, or groups of people with distinct sets of behavior and beliefs that differentiate them from a larger culture of which they are a part. The subculture may be distinctive because of the age of its members, or by their race, ethnicity, class, or gender. The qualities that determine a subculture as distinct may be aesthetic, religious, occupational, political, sexual, or a combination of these factors.

In dealing with immigrant groups and their cultures, there are various approaches:

* Leitkultur (core culture): A model developed in Germany by Bassam Tibi. The idea is that minorities can have an identity of their own, but they should at least support the core concepts of the culture on which the society is based.
* Melting Pot: In the United States, the traditional view has been one of a melting pot where all the immigrant cultures are mixed and amalgamated without state intervention.
* Monoculturalism: In some European states, culture is very closely linked to nationalism, thus government policy is to assimilate immigrants, although recent increases in migration have led many European states to experiment with forms of multiculturalism.
* Multiculturalism: A policy that immigrants and others should preserve their cultures with the different cultures interacting peacefully within one nation.

The way nation states treat immigrant cultures rarely falls neatly into one or another of the above approaches. The degree of difference with the host culture (i.e., "foreignness"), the number of immigrants, attitudes of the resident population, the type of government policies that are enacted, and the effectiveness of those policies all make it difficult to generalize about the effects. Similarly with other subcultures within a society, attitudes of the mainstream population and communications between various cultural groups play a major role in determining outcomes. The study of cultures within a society is complex and research must take into account a myriad of variables.

From your wiki of "Culture"

The Arizonian said...

Someone Said:
“What is it about high religiosity that pairs it so often with poverty? Are those with low quality of life more likely to turn to religion as a consolation, or does a high level of religiosity in a society somehow impede its ability to maintain a strong economy and stable society?”

May I?
Maybe because some people are happy enough with God to not have to turn into 'consumers'.
Religion impeding the economy? By not buying items that they really don't need?
And just what do you mean by 'stable society'?
Example, 4 out of 5 of your 'top average income' states (MD,NY,NJ,MA) have some of the highest crime rates in the country, not to mention that they are among the bottom 5 in regards to 'religious attendance'. Utah, on the other hand, has a high 'religious attendance' rate, and yet they have one of the lowest crime rates in the country.
I agree with you, there does seem to be some connection.

You also fail to mention the cost of living in these states. The top five 'average income' states also have the highest cost of living. So, higher average income is necessary.

But I do enjoy a good show pseudo-research from time to time.

Liquidmicro said...

"they fear living in a world where White Northern European Males are NOT ALWAYS in Control."


I think Marisa @Latina Lista says it best as an argument against her own, Hispanics.

"the fact that Latinos are horrible self-promoters and just when we realize that it's going to take a selfless, ego-less community-wide effort to get some of the best and brightest Latinos noticed for White House appointments, there's a possibility that we're late for the party — otra vez! (again)"

Liquidmicro said...

After reading your topic numerous times, you define Western Culture in the beginning, but in the end you turn it into racism against 'White Northern European Males'. Why the racism on your part?? Do you identify Western Culture with the whites of the USA?? I don't understand why you would resort to racism in your topic??

Dee said...

Liquid,
You have difficulty connecting the dots.
Our country has always been multi cultural, however, those in power, the dominant group, White, Northern European Males, have been in control of Politics and Business and ruled the underclasses.
Then in the 60s, the Civil Rights Movement happened. The change in realizing Equal Rights happened and evolved slowly. Then in the 80s and 90s the technology boom happened and Globalization.
As women and minorities (the sub cultures) embraced and realized their rights and their equality, our culture evolved even more. Read what the HR Expert said. The White Northern European male, has been the Dominant Culture. This is where the Race Factor is mentioned.
It is about RACE. Civil Rights and Globalization have brought about the end of the White Northern European Male supremacy.
I know the truth scares you. But you may as well admit it.

Dee said...

The White Northern European males have specified their rules of conformance for women and minorities in the past.
Now, we are seeing a significant culture change.
Globalization has brought us to the point where more and more multi-ethnic, multi-racial people are in decision making roles in our country and in the world. It has not happened quickly, but over the last 4 decades, since the Civil Rights Movement. Now we even have a multi racial, multi ethnic man in the white house.
We will still have Globalization and technology, however with a new face, a new spirit, a new and evolving culture.
I think this is good news for all.

Dee said...

I liked this comment from the Lifestyle link I provided. This goes directly to the Civil Rights Movement:

"A remarkable social and cultural inversion has occurred in the last fifty years: where once Western culture was the monopoly of the upper classes, it now, more often than not, bubbles up from those on the ‘wrong side of the tracks’. This transformation has been especially evident in the world of style - with the authenticity of streetstyle challenging and then toppling the dictatorship of High Fashion."

Anonymous said...

White-European culture has been the dominant culture of this country and always has been with sub-cultures existing within it. It is made up of both white males and females! Whites have been dominant in politics because this country is comprised of nearlly 80%white people. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how they came to be a majority political force then, does it?

Hispanics are the majority in Mexico. How many anglo-white citizens hold political power there? Nada, zilch! That is because of the mostly Hispanic demographic makeup of that country.

Just because whites are the majority in this country does not make them supremists or that they don't think that citizens of sub-cultures shouldn't be treated equally these days. Only a dishonest, white-hating, victim mentality person would think that!

Liquidmicro said...

Our society is based on Western Culture, look at our system of government. You are attempting to define sub-cultures based on race. Even the 'whites' of the USA have many cultures.

You confuse to much with class and not culture. White people are not a culturally, ethnically, or economically homogenous group. Anglo Saxons actually only form around 8% of the total population of the US, the other 64% of the population identified as "white" is composed of assimilated ethnic minorities - who on average are MUCH less wealthy then the white elite.
As an example, there are aprx. 30 million Scotch-Irish Americans (12-16% of the total population), and their average incomes are far below the "white" average (I don't have a solid exact figure). Appalachia, where they are most heavily concentrated, is one of the single poorest regions in the entire country - it's essentially a giant reservation for poor Celts. Irish, Italians, and eastern European Americans are also majority poor and working class. The fact that the wealthiest 2% of the population owns something like 80% of the countries wealth, and most of them are Anglos, severely distorts the average "white" income graph listed earlier. If we look critically at the fact that Anglo Saxons (who have traditionally seen non-Anglo whites as culturally and even racially inferior) are disproportionately wealthy doesn't really do a damn thing to tangibly improve the lot of poor and working-class whites.

Thus your deeming all 'whites' as 'White Northern European Males' shows your own racism.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Did the Civil Rights Movement change our country?

Dee said...

Do you deny what the HR Expert said about what SHE said was the “dominant culture” (i.e., white, male, Northern European background) in our country?

Dee said...

You choose to hurl the term racism instead of discussing the topic. How telling! This illustrates your FEAR of discussing this topic.

Dee said...

Anon,
You are just going to have to accept the facts that Times are Changing! We are evolving into a multi cultural society. We even have a multi ethnic, multi racial President. Latinos, Blacks and Women hold the highest positions in our Government.

I think the changes are very good.
We are ALL Equal!! Any of us can achieve the highest office in the land. God Bless America!

Anonymous said...
White-European culture has been the dominant culture of this country and always has been with sub-cultures existing within it. It is made up of both white males and females! Whites have been dominant in politics because this country is comprised of nearlly 80%white people.

Dee said...

I think we owe a Great Deal of Thanks to Martin Luther King, the NAACP, and Presidents Kennedy and Johnson for passage of the Civil Rights Act in the 60s.

"The Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241, July 2, 1964) was a landmark piece of legislation in the United States that outlawed racial segregation in schools, public places, and employment. Conceived to help African Americans, the bill was amended prior to passage to protect women, and explicitly included white people for the first time. It also created the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission."
"Once the Act was implemented, its effects were far reaching and had tremendous long-term impacts on the whole country. It prohibited discrimination in public facilities, in government, and in employment, invalidating the Jim Crow laws in the southern U.S. It became illegal to compel segregation of the races in schools, housing, or hiring. Powers given to enforce the bill were initially weak, but were supplemented during later years."

Dee said...

Federal Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) Law:

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin

Anonymous said...

I do disagree that have a white-MALE Northern European culture. What has gender to do with it? White females are also of this same culture.

I don't have to face anything about our culture changing drastically. Our BASIC culture is what I described already with sub-cultures living among us. We are NOT multi-cultural in identity! Why can't YOU face that?

I have no problem with every race and women having equal rights in this country or holding office in this country. I already stated that so why do you act like I didn't? It still has nothing to do with the FACT that we have a BASIC, DOMINANT culture and always will!

ultima said...

This is an interesting piece that warrants serious discussion. I suspect that if there is any fear out there, it is not a worry about white, anglo saxons running the country. Rather it is a concern about whether the changes we see on the horizon will result in competent leaders or a dumbing down of society with a significant percentage of our students failing to complete high school and then expecting society to take care of them with government largess.

The most comprehensive study of the succcess of democracy as a function of the level of development was conducted by Przeworski and Limongi. They looked at every country in the world between 1950 and 1990. They calculated that in a democratic country that has a per capita income of under $1,500 in today's dollars, the regime had an average life of eight years. With $1,500-$3,000,it was 18 years. Above $6,000, democratic government proved to be highly resilient. Thirty-two democratic regimes have existed at incomes above roughly $9,000 for a combined 736 years. None in that category failed. Leadership is also important in the success equation.

So this suggests that any dumbing down of society that leads to lower income levels per capita can put a democracy in jeopardy, especially if the concommitant situation is poor leadership. We should then be asking ourselves how such an eventuality might occur. I suggest that a flood of poorly educated immigrants and illegal aliens followed by excessive school drop out rates is one way it could happen.
A family of four with an income less than $36,000 has a dilutive effect on the overall per capita average income. Similarly, those like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet at the top of the totem pole tend to skew the average in the other direction. It seems to me this constitutes an argument for tying blue collar worker wages more closely to the historical ratio to executive pay. It has now become distorted upward with the rich getting richer and the poor not keeping pace.

The bottom line is not what we can or should do to maintain the grip of whites on the top jobs but rather how can we be sure that whoever has those jobs will provide competent leadership and innovation in a global economy.

This is not to suggest that all of the competence lies with the dominant culture but rather that overall the achievements of that culture has far surpassed those of any other at least in this hemisphere. Accordingly, we should be careful what we wish for, whether it be more immigrants or an artificial displacement of bright competent leadership in business and government.

ultima said...

"...with the authenticity of streetstyle challenging and then toppling the dictatorship of High Fashion."

Save me from the reversed caps and the baggy jeans barely hanging on well below the waist while the jean bottoms drag on the street and from the tartlike garments not just of teenagers but of adult women who should know better. Is this street fashion a part of the dumbing down of our society?

Liquidmicro said...

Your topic goes from trying to define what is Western Culture -Culturalism

to trying to define class with your graph
-Classism

to trying to demean those who disagree as
-Angloism

to stating: They do not want to say they fear living in a world where White Male Northern European are NOT ALWAYS in Control
-Racism


Now I have given you many comments, you have yet to answer any of them but decide to try to denigrate me due to your own lack of obliviousness.

Liquidmicro said...

So which of the 4 categories in your topic is it you wish to discuss??

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Do you deny what the HR Expert said about what SHE said was the “dominant culture” (i.e., white, male, Northern European background) in our country?


I do, simply because she fails to define what the dominant culture is in the USA. She is defining it in terms of the Corporate world, as that then how you wish to discuss this??

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
Did the Civil Rights Movement change our country?


Racially, yes, culturally, very little. Those cultures were already there, and they have changed very little since. It has allowed for classism to enter into those cultures even more so then what was there to begin with.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

You choose to hurl the term racism instead of discussing the topic. How telling! This illustrates your FEAR of discussing this topic.


I discuss the topic and make questions that you don't like along with pointing out your racism, and you then become ANGRY, as you point out in your topic of others?? Seems the one with the problem is you. Now please show where it is I have not discussed this topic in any of my comments.

Liquidmicro said...

I'm just trying to understand why if your topic is supposed to be about Culture, why is it you have to introduce all those other elements and then end it all with racism towards White European Males. I mean it only shows your own train of thought, to you its not about culture at all but more about your own racism towards White European Males whom you seem to despise.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Seems like your side would have thought of this before you tried to put Palin one heartbeat away from the Presidency.

Ultima said....
So this suggests that any dumbing down of society that leads to lower income levels per capita can put a democracy in jeopardy, especially if the concommitant situation is poor leadership....
The bottom line is not what we can or should do to maintain the grip of whites on the top jobs but rather how can we be sure that whoever has those jobs will provide competent leadership and innovation in a global economy.

theczech said...

I suppose it would be silly of me to enter terms like "privilege" "social capital" and "economic capital" to explain why the small country club who always seems to be in power stays in power, and random impoverished POC off the street don't seem to make it to the presidency.

I haven't heard anything racist from Dee on this thread, but alluding to black youth style and pairing that with "dumbing down" our country is actually a racist thing to say.

There is no fundamental difference in cognitive abilities across race. There is no evidence that the way black youth where their pants effects their own intelligence or that of the nation.

@the Arizonian-

Thanks for your thoughts on the graphs. I don't think your explanations account for the strong correlations the researchers found between wealth and religiosity.

Regarding crime, you said:
"for example, 4 out of 5 of your 'top average income' states (MD,NY,NJ,MA) have some of the highest crime rates in the country"

2008 research indicates only one of those states are in the top 10 most dangerous states. As a matter of fact, as poverty and crime seem to go together, it is mostly the states colored red on the graph that are in the top 10 worst:
Nevada, Louisiana, NM, SC, AZ, Tenn, MD, AK, FL, Michigan

I think it's going a tad far to call this "pseudo-research". The researchers gathered empirical data and graphed it. They found a strong correlation between two variables. They published their results in a respected venue with rigorous review. They were careful to say that though they found correlation, they can not explain any causation at this time.

It is a bad practice to dismiss facts that don't sit well with you. It is better to work with them and see what truths they lead to.

The Arizonian said...

I still contend that some turn to god instead of the gob-box (tv). And as such, would not need to make more money to sustain a lifestyle they don't want/need.
It is true that many in these areas may 'cling to guns and religion' as a means of coping.
However, did these 'researches' take into effect certain variables such as: Manufacturing, tech jobs, etc.?
Utah isn't really known for it's manufacturing.

FYI: AZ is high on the list due to the overwhelmingly high amount of auto theft. We are located near the border, and most stolen cars are in Mexico before the owner realizes it is gone. Matter of fact, the world's largest 'salvage yard' is located no more than 2 miles from the border on the Mexico side, cover several square miles......

Liquidmicro said...

"and random impoverished POC off the street don't seem to make it to the presidency."

Pres. Elect Obama comes to mind here.


"but alluding to black youth style and pairing that with "dumbing down" our country is actually a racist thing to say.'

Where did Ultima allude to 'black youth'?? He eluded to a style, worn by most every youth, but 'you' made it about 'blacks', is that how you live...that's a black thing...that's a white thing...that's an Asian thing...etc. Seems you made it a racist thing by interjecting race when it is nothing more than a style or fashion statement.

Liquidmicro said...

"I think the chart also shows the differences in sub-Cultures across the USA."


Sub-cultures in the since of Cosmopolitan (city life)vs Rural (country life). With a few states such as TX being both.

Anonymous said...

Let us look for a moment at the difference in culture of the middle east vs the west. As more and more muslims move to the west, they are demanding that their religious culture is imposed on the countries that they have moved to. In the UK, they even want (and are getting in some instances) Sharia law. Their banking system is based on Sharia law. Their women are subservient to the men, are often not even given opportunity for education. We in the U.S. cannot afford to let that happen in this country no matter how many muslims immigrate here, no matter what their culture is. We as a country would die.

Look for a moment at the culture of many asian countries. They slaughter and eat dogs as well as other animals that are not even permitted to be in the United States yet they smuggle them in, threatening their health and ours. Despite their culture, we cannot allow this to happen.

Look for a moment at the culture of people in many Latin American countries where cock fighting and dog fighting is a favorite sport and where corruption is part of daily life - you simply pay off whoever for whatever and nobody blinks an eye. The whole legal system is corrupt and everybody from high gov officials to the poorest accept it as part of daily life.

There are cultural differences all over the world. Yes, we are a melting pot but we are also a nation founded on Judeo-Christian morals and standards and the rule of law. That is who we are. Just because people who come here from different cultures immigrate here doesn't mean their cultures should be accepted here.

ultima said...

We can get a good idea of what the Mexican cultural infusion will look like by viewing photos of the layups in Arizona that look like a landfill.

ultima said...

Here's some samples of Mexican Cultural Infusion

ultima said...

Liquid wrote to Dee, "Seems you made it a racist thing by interjecting race when it is nothing more than a style or fashion statement."

Touche, Liquid! With every post to expose Dee's incredible hangup on race. We'll probably have to wait until hell freezes over for her to admit the error of her ways, and this mistake in particular.

ultima said...

"Leitkultur (core culture): A model developed in Germany by Bassam Tibi. The idea is that minorities can have an identity of their own, but they should at least support the core concepts of the culture on which the society is based."

This makes a lot more sense to me than multi-culturalism where, according to one blogger, there is no expectation of assimilation, no common ideals, no common language,no common regard for the law. Apparently some prefer the rule of men rather than the rule of law (think Hitler as a good example of the rule of men).

ultima said...

Liquid wrote, "The way nation states treat immigrant cultures rarely falls neatly into one or another of the above approaches. The degree of difference with the host culture (i.e., "foreignness"), the number of immigrants, attitudes of the resident population, the type of government policies that are enacted, and the effectiveness of those policies all make it difficult to generalize about the effects."

Kudos for this excellent post. In the past I have posted a story about a German immigrant who was lynched. The point is this type of behavior generally disappears as immigrants assimilate.

ultima said...

Czech wrote, "There is no fundamental difference in cognitive abilities across race. There is no evidence that the way black youth where their pants effects their own intelligence or that of the nation."

As Liquid pointed out I didn't mention race. Perhaps you would like to correct your misstatement which I wrongly attributed to Dee. Bill Cosby had a few things to say about the behavior like the low rider pants and tarted up teenage girls. What is your reference for your statement above? Have you researched all of the pertinent papers to determine if there is any connection between dress and intellect without regard to race?

Dee said...

Ulty,
You are confused. Liquid´s statement was to Czech, not to me.
Although I do think Czech made an accurate analysis of the intent of your statement.

Additionally, your generalities do go overboard and tend to be the "R" word with all of your ASSUMptions. Your "Mexican Cultural Infusion" picture of clothes left behind by those walking many miles across the desert in their quest for freedom and the American Dream hardly depicts culture, rather their determination, strength and fortitude.

As far as Latina cultural lifestyle, I would match my home to yours any day of the week.


ultima said...
Liquid wrote to Dee, "Seems you made it a racist thing by interjecting race when it is nothing more than a style or fashion statement."

Touche, Liquid! With every post to expose Dee's incredible hangup on race. We'll probably have to wait until hell freezes over for her to admit the error of her ways, and this mistake in particular.

Dee said...

Ulty,
I enjoy experiencing other cultures in our country. From Art, to Restaurants, to Music, to Clothing, to games, movies, the internet, the world is ours right in our own homes!
I love the cooking shows so I can try new recipes for my family.
My husband loves to watch that guy who eats very exotic food.
When I lived in Chicago I loved all the ethnic festivals, the music, the beer, the dancing, the crafts.
Globalization has made it easier for all of us to appreciate all cultures and therefore, rather than being narrow minded, we expand our minds and appreciation of others.

Dee said...

Czech,
The chart was very thought provoking. Thank you for your additional explanation of the research. You provided a excellent response to AZ.

The Czech said...
I think it's going a tad far to call this "pseudo-research". The researchers gathered empirical data and graphed it. They found a strong correlation between two variables. They published their results in a respected venue with rigorous review. They were careful to say that though they found correlation, they can not explain any causation at this time.

Anonymous said...

That mess that was left behind th is toxic to our environment and dangerous to wildlife in their quest to violate our immigration laws. Don't try to sugarcoat it. Most of them are Mexicans and they already have freedom in their own country. The American Dreams is attained by asking and applying through proper channels. It isn't just for the taking by anyone who decides they want it.

As I said, their are many ethnic sub-culture groups living in our country and I think we can all enjoy their food, music, etc. But they do not represent the core culture of this country.

Analisa said...

Dee,

Fascinating blog! I just wish I had more time to respond. Seems you really touched a nerve with this one. Our white European males are suddenly sensitive about racism. It shows that they don't even understand the meaning of the term, which has to do with the systematic abuse of power by the dominant group (yes, white European males). But the real irony is that they've suddenly discovered the 'victim mentality' they love to complain about. he,he. Now, that's a good one. ;-)

Analisa

Analisa said...

Liquid,

I appreciate all the beautiful poetry you’ve been posting to my wordpress blog. However, I’ve decided to block you from my site until you can be more civil to Dee. I wish I had a dollar for every time you’ve insulted her intelligence. It’s unacceptable to me. Please don’t think you can play a game of “divide and conquer” with us. I’m on to your strategies.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said:
"Analisa actually has understood the discussion quite well and is able to intelligently argue it, unlike your's or Czech's intellectual disability."-Liquidmicro

Liquidmicro said...

"Our white European males are suddenly sensitive about racism. It shows that they don't even understand the meaning of the term, which has to do with the systematic abuse of power by the dominant group (yes, white European males)."


Are you claiming that the 'Dominant Group' is the Corporate Presidents?? I think Will I Am says it best: “As much as racism still exists today, people don’t care. There’s no racism amongst people. There’s racism amongst corporations and what corporations think people want to buy.”

Or are you saying that you think capitalism is just bad?? And because of the classism in the structure of the management, you point fingers at all white European males??

Or are you attempting to say that you think we need to try Eastern Culture as a society vs the Western culture we now have?? What culture is it you want to have as equivocal to the culture of our society?? Or is it you don't think all sub-cultures are equal?? If so, then what sub-cultures need to be made as such??

What victim mentality?? None in here have claimed victim. Many questions have been posed to those on your side, yet not one single rebuttal worth mention. You claim a White European Male Dominance, yet those who are elected are voted in by the people. Why is it there aren't many others of color running?? (Look to my earlier post: the fact that Latinos are horrible self-promoters and just when we realize that it's going to take a selfless, ego-less community-wide effort to get some of the best and brightest Latinos noticed for White House appointments, there's a possibility that we're late for the party — otra vez! (again) ) People of all colors hold grudges towards others, look at the Asians who are vehemently against appointing Richardson as Commerce Secretary. What do you think is going to happen to CA State Senator Fabien Nunez now that his son has been arrested for Murder??



Now, why would you bring a response from another topic that has no bearing on this topic?? Game playing?? Divide and conquer?? I though you wanted intelligent conversation?? I pointed out many things about the leading up to the Mexican American War, that you knew nothing at all about. And you still only believe what it is you want to, based on a biased sense.

Liquidmicro said...

"So the question becomes, why are so many so angry with the fact we have an evolving, multi (sub) cultural society that is ever evolving?"

Nobody is angry with the fact that we have sub-cultures. The problem has been your statement of only 'culture', and you have failed to acknowledge the fact that Western Culture is the basis of our Society (our dominant culture). You have never defined your statements and you have blurred them as you have with equating immigrants with Illegal Aliens. You have stated you want equivocal culture, yet when asked you never define what culture you want equal to what, you give some cacamaymi answer that goes in circles. Define your responses.

Liquidmicro said...

I'll ask again, what is your culture?? Define the answer.

Liquidmicro said...

"The problem is, they do not want to admit the truth. They do not want to say they fear Diversity, Equal Rights, Women´s Rights, and the fact that all diverse groups, ALL men and women are created equal. They do not want to say they fear living in a world where White Northern European Males are NOT ALWAYS in Control."


So then what you are proposing is anarchy. You despise social hierarchy. You don't like the fact that we are a Republic instead of a Democracy. Do you feel as though you are a proletariat??

Liquidmicro said...

Basically, in the end, what you are trying to say is you don't have political equality, yet, and that Political equality is what you think White European Males are afraid of?? You think Globalization will bring it about??

Liquidmicro said...

"Globalization has brought us to the point where more and more multi-ethnic, multi-racial people are in decision making roles in our country and in the world.
....
Now we even have a multi racial, multi ethnic man in the white house."


So to you, Obama is the Messiah, here to break the chains of oppression of subordinated people?? So you have the audacity to point the finger at European White Males for not voting for Obama, and call them racist because of it. This is where you 'don't get it'.

theczech said...

For those who wonder how I knew ultima was talking about blacks when s/he said:
"Save me from the reversed caps and the baggy jeans barely hanging on well below the waist while the jean bottoms drag on the street..."

There is this tactic people use when they want to say something racist without being accused of racism. You use code words and phrases, which in any average person's mind will be associated with a certain race, but you never explicitly name that race. Therefore, you get to make your racially dubious comment while dodging the label of racist!

See how nifty that is?

Except people who have been working against racism have known about these tactics, for like, forever.

theczech said...

Wow, this is a whole cultural education from Anonymous (quoted below), and I want to make sure I got my "facts" straight:

1. All Muslims want to bring Shari'a to America.

2. All Muslims discriminate against women.

3. All Asians eat dogs.

4. All Asians smuggle illegal animals into America to eat.

5. All Latinos' favorite sports are cock fighting and dog fighting.

6. All Latin-American governments are corrupt.

These are some amazing, eye-opening facts. I had literally no idea about any of this. Can you believe it?

To make your cultural lesson complete, Anonymous, why don't you post your reference material for these astounding facts. That way we'll know that you're a dispassionate observer and not a purveyor of ignorant, racist comments.

Anonymous:
"Let us look for a moment at the difference in culture of the middle east vs the west. As more and more muslims move to the west, they are demanding that their religious culture is imposed on the countries that they have moved to. In the UK, they even want (and are getting in some instances) Sharia law. Their banking system is based on Sharia law. Their women are subservient to the men, are often not even given opportunity for education. We in the U.S. cannot afford to let that happen in this country no matter how many muslims immigrate here, no matter what their culture is. We as a country would die.

Look for a moment at the culture of many asian countries. They slaughter and eat dogs as well as other animals that are not even permitted to be in the United States yet they smuggle them in, threatening their health and ours. Despite their culture, we cannot allow this to happen.

Look for a moment at the culture of people in many Latin American countries where cock fighting and dog fighting is a favorite sport and where corruption is part of daily life - you simply pay off whoever for whatever and nobody blinks an eye. The whole legal system is corrupt and everybody from high gov officials to the poorest accept it as part of daily life."

Analisa said...

Czech,

Brilliant! You've only been here a day or two and you've already caught on to the ANTIs' tired strategies. They try to appear like normal, patriotic Americans but they are virulently racist. I know this because I caught them "in flagrante delicto" on the site of a self-professed white supremacist (NAZI). His site is the focal gathering spot where they go to rant about me and Dee. They avoid openly racist language, but regularly traffic in racist code words. However, every once in a while they let something slip which betrays their true attitudes to POC.

They will try to paint you as a socialist, a radical ethnocentrist, a Marxist or an unpatriotic American. Note Liquid's reference to "proletarianism." He's eager to paint me as a Marxist, now. If you're a minority, they'll try to make it look like you have a chip on your shoulder. Ay, their tactics are so obvious, it's amusing. Just a bit of friendly advice: keep a sense of humor and don't let them get to you. You seem like an intelligent woman who can hold her own. So, welcome, Czech! It's nice to have another PRO on this site.

Analisa

Analisa said...

Czech,

I love your blog about the multi-cultural model. I don't think I could have said it any better. I hope you don't mind if I repost it here:

Czech said...
"I think my ideal would be similar to the multi-cultural model. As an immigrant, you aren’t required to give up any part of yourself. You can remain a whole person, and absorb new experiences however you wish. This model gives the immigrant complete freedom to choose their lifestyle within the new country. The only price is to respect others cultures as you would have them respect yours.

I imagine that a criticism of this model would be that immigrants won’t have to “assimilate.” I am not bothered by immigrants who “don’t assimilate”. As long as we all treat each other with respect and human dignity, I don’t care what language you prefer to speak, what clothing you like to wear, when and how and how often you pray, what kind of family you build. As neighbors, we will still interact with each other, and through our interactions, learn. Your personhood, your identity, should not be the price of a move across a border. Of course, I don’t believe in borders either. But that’s another post." -Czech

Liquidmicro said...

How your words deceive yourself. Hran is not an admitted White Supremest, he is the same as any other of us, a Nationalist. As for prolatarenism, if you read what I said it was proletariate, look up the difference. Besides it wasn't directed at you, but Dee and her comment. The lack of comprehensibility on you and yours is atrocious. Your ASSumptions of what is a fashion statement, baggy pants as a 'CODE WORD' is assanine and only shows your feeble attempts at painting racist on those which do not agree with you, is just IGNORANCE on your own behalf.

Czech made assumptions about her list. You must first comprehend the words before you can make an intelligent response. I already know you can't handle any intelligent conversation as you have removed my comment on your blog.

As for removing my posts on your blog Analisa.... childish acts on our part, there was nothing there that would have given any inclination of anything other than poems.

If neither of you can dialect with semi intelligence, than whats the point of your posting??

Dee said...

Gosh. I love this whole blog and the comments!
I could not have wished for a better result.
All have remained civil.
I limited my interaction.
Czech and Analisa have had the far superior argument!
I love it!!!!!
My kudos to Czech and Analisa!!

Analisa said...

Liquid,

Thank you, I feel better now... When you start saying I "understood the discussion quite well" and "am able to intelligently argue it," I get worried. he,he. ;-)

Liquidmicro said...
"Analisa actually has understood the discussion quite well and is able to intelligently argue it..."

Liquidmicro said...

They haven't even made an argument, all they have done is point fingers, same as you, along with many assumptions without comprehension. I guess then the three of you are to beholden the testament to the 'Dumbing down of America'.

Analisa said...

I meant to reference Liquid's post:

"If neither of you can dialect with semi intelligence, than whats the point of your posting??" -liquidmicro

Liquidmicro said...

Analisa said...

Liquid,

Thank you, I feel better now... When you start saying I "understood the discussion quite well" and "am able to intelligently argue it," I get worried. he,he. ;-)


It was in regards to the other topic of which you pulled the comment from.

Liquidmicro said...

So by pulling a comment from another topic and you placing it here, you are then trying to make it seem as if I had aid it about this topic?? You have got to be kidding!!

Liquidmicro said...

Now you are showing intellectual dishonesty, trying to make something appear that isn't in this topic. You are not a magician when your trick is deceit and misleading.

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

The 'Dumbing down of America' is another code word for "minorities are too dumb to compete with the superior intellects of white folks." Now, I'm a teacher and as part of my teacher training, I visited a number of schools. I found it interesting that the schools in white neighborhoods are well equipped with up-to-date textbooks, advanced placement courses, computers and credentialed teachers who are well trained in their profession. By contrast, children who live in minority neighborhoods are forced to attend schools with fewer supplies, outdated textbooks and teachers who are, by and large, uncredentialed. They lack the advanced placement courses of school districts with more money. So it is a LACK OF OPPORTUNITY and that is leading to the "dumbing down" of America's minority children. We have to turn this equation around if we care about America's future because we are becoming more "brown" as a nation. If we wish to compete globally, we can't afford to continue to the practice of discrimination when it comes to educating minority children. Future generation of leaders will come from these communities. Let's give these kids a chance to succeed.

Analisa

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

Just reading back to the comments I missed because I've been too swamped with work to respond.

Liquidmicro said...
"I mean it only shows your own train of thought, to you its not about culture at all but more about your own racism towards White European Males whom you seem to despise."

theczech said...

@Analisa-

Thanks for the advice. You're a sweetheart. Yes, I am a huge PRO. Pro-equal rights, pro-human, pro-minority, and pro-immigrant.

This is the best quote of the day, from Liquidmicro:

"Czech made assumptions about her list. You must first comprehend the words before you can make an intelligent response. I already know you can't handle any intelligent conversation as you have removed my comment on your blog."

Amazing.

Here's a thing: I am not as brave as Dee, in that my blog is not open to any and all commentors. I stated rather unequivocally that my blog is a "no douchebag zone". ;)

Facetiousness aside, my blog is a safe forum for social justice advocates to discuss with one another. Dee's blog here is a forum for EVERYBODY to have it out, if they wish. So, that's why not everyone's comments will make it up. Liquidmicro, you do have lots of interesting thoughts and opinions, but your manner of expressing them, as demonstrated by the quote above, is not appropriate for my blog.

Feel free to post your reference material regarding your 'facts' about minorities any time.

Tee hee.

Liquidmicro said...

My comment on your blog was neither derogatory nor 'douche'. I simply answered your questions of Dominant and core culture and even gave you a link to core values. Might I suggest you read the 3 links in your topic that wordpress puts there in green under your opinion, you might gain so helpful insight into the actual discussion of what American Culture really is.

Analisa said...

My message to Liquidmicro:

All right, I'm signing off for the night, but before I do I'd just like to explain to liquid why I am blocking him from my wordpress blog...and why I’m tempted to get sarcastic. Liquid, I've been noticing for some time now that you have a very high opinion of yourself. At the same time, you think it’s okay to make the most demeaning remarks to Dee: ugly comments that degrade her intelligence. Here’s an example from the November 23 blog:

Liquidmicro said…
“Dee always harps about knowing history, however when confronted with it in its context she is lost. She bases her knowledge on movies she has seen, and the couple of books she has read that are biased to begin with.”-Liquidmicro

On another occasion, you asked her: "do you even understand the meaning of the word 'minutia'?" You talk to her like she’s a child or a cretin. For a while now, I've been wondering if there isn't a racist subtext to these displays of contempt. Do you disrespect her because she is a Latina? That's the question I’ve had for some time, and I’m beginning to believe that this is really what all this contempt is about. Now, if it is, I won't stand for it! That's why I deleted you from my blog...I said it was a "Hate Free Zone" and I meant it (I don't care if you only posted poetry - that means haters, too).

Let’s get one thing straight, Liquid. I joined this site mainly because of Dee. In my view, she is highly intelligent and well educated on the issue of immigration. I’ve learned a lot from her. Pardon me for saying so, but you appear to see this issue through the lens of your own bigotry. From what I’ve seen, you have a very strong prejudice against Latinos – not just the undocumented, either. This is evident every time you try to paint Latinos as heinous criminals (all those articles you love to trot out), downplay their contributions (the debate about the Ph.D.s, etc), spit at their culture (telling Evelyn of Latina Lista that Mexico is a “craphole” and its people “ignorant,” etc.), and make excuses for the teenagers who murdered Luis Ramirez and Marcelo Lucero. Are you always this mean-spirited or do you have to work at it??

Then, to top off your arrogance, you pretend that you’re the only real expert on historical events. Well, anyone who’s educated knows that even historians and scholars disagree with one another on historical events. So there is no one “official version” of history. Mostly, there are interpretations. Dee happens to disagree with your interpretation. So do I. And so does Eleanor. This doesn't make us stupid.

So, what do you do? Instead of considering that there might be another interpretation of these historical events that simply differs from yours, you put on an air of superiority and demean everyone’s intelligence. And we already know that you think your race is so much better: more innovative, clever, ingenious, etc. How pompous is that??

What you fail to understand is that there is a long history of racism in this country. We are aware of this history…we are aware of how it informs the current climate of hate in America (the age-old animosity towards immigrants). You prefer to remain in denial. Please understand, when we talk about “white Northern European males,” we are referencing this history (NOT individual white males, many of whom are fine people). We are talking about a history of power relations that still exists today. You prefer to sweep it under the rug and pretend that you live in a "post-racial" America. But you wouldn’t know, would you (?), since you don’t know what it’s like to walk in our shoes.

Anyway, I feel like I’m hearing more of the same disrespect when you make these ugly remarks about Dee’s intelligence. Please stop. I appreciated your poems very much. You know, it’s hard to believe that someone could write such beautiful poetry and still be so mean to people. All I’m saying is this: Leave Dee alone with these ugly, degrading comments of yours! It does nothing to advance your arguments. That’s the main message I am trying to get through that pompous head of yours.

Liquidmicro said:
"As for removing my posts on your blog Analisa.... childish acts on our part, there was nothing there that would have given any inclination of anything other than poems." -Liquidmicro

Analisa said...

Czech,

You're right. This was the best quote of the day. Vintage liquidmicro (should take his own advice some time). he,he

theCzech said...
"This is the best quote of the day, from Liquidmicro:

'Czech made assumptions about her list. You must first comprehend the words before you can make an intelligent response. I already know you can't handle any intelligent conversation as you have removed my comment on your blog.'"

Liquidmicro said...

"telling Evelyn of Latina Lista that Mexico is a “craphole” and its people “ignorant,” etc."

You contribute someone elses comments to me?? Sorry, please try again.


You look up to Dee, that's great, she does know a bit about immigration, however, as you have not been around for the past 2 years, you know very little of her ad hominen attacks, or other known actions she has pulled.

Do I disrespect Dee for being Latina?? No, I do not, her ethnicity has nothing to do with my comments. Mostly its due to her misunderstanding (assumptions) of what is being said, case in point Ramirez and Lucero. As I have even told you, its not my fault you were unable to understand what I had stated. All you wish to 'hear' is that The boys in both cases should be in jail. I stated they should be, many, many times for the crimes they committed, the difference of opinion was in the culpability of the other boys vs Dee just stating Piekarsky is the killer. In Dee's statement, only Piekarsky can be held accountable, when my statements say that two if not three should be and that Ramirez also held some culpability. For that I have been chastised, regarded as a Racist, Supremest, and various other terms.

As for history, you brought up Manifest Destiny (your sides rhetoric), I pointed out it wasn't even brought into politics until 1845 when O'Sullivan brought it up in his media (Texas succeeded from Mexico in 1836). It was the Southern Democrats that liked the ideal of it while the rest of the Democrats and the Republicans where against it. I pointed out Santa Ana became a Dictator and that Texas was a Republic, its own Nation, for 12 years prior to 1848. Still you wish to believe the rhetoric of your side (The Southwest was stolen land). It's all the 'white mans' fault. I've never claimed to be an expert in American History, I simply pointed out many things in history that were left out that change the entire debate about your sides rhetoric. I pointed that out to Evelyn, she excepted that and said she thinks it lies somewhere in the middle, but she dropped her rhetoric of it and saw the entire picture.

If you, Dee, and/or others can give an honest discussion than so can I. No assumptions, no ad hominen attacks, just straight forward debate where we can agree to disagree if it comes down to it.

Liquidmicro said...

"What you fail to understand is that there is a long history of racism in this country. We are aware of this history…we are aware of how it informs the current climate of hate in America (the age-old animosity towards immigrants). You prefer to remain in denial."


I am fully aware of the history of the USA, the difference is you and your side hold on to that racism, you play it every chance you get, you make assumptions like you have here. Again you blur the difference between Immigrants and "Illegal Aliens", why?? (Rhetorical question) So, now, where is it I am in denial??

You said "But you wouldn’t know, would you (?), since you don’t know what it’s like to walk in our shoes."

Half of my family is Hispanic/Latin@, so what pair is it you want me to wear?? The Spanish side of my family, or the Latin@ side?? Or can I do just the one side of them all, Rule of Law, since they are all Americans and don't want to return to the clutches of a Mexican territory.

Or is it the fact that you don't have any Representatives in Government?? Well you do, quite a few on the state levels, and yes even some in the Federal Government. You even have CEO's in some very large major corporations, so exactly what is the problem then?? Are they just not giving you what it is you want?? Are you upset that some of them side with the laws of the USA??

Dee said...

Liquid,
This is a good one. Half of your family is Hispanic-Latin@
Which part.
Your blonde Portugese wife you claimed on another post is Latin, NOT Latina?
Or your blond headed self?

LOL
LOL
LOL

Liquid said...
Half of my family is Hispanic/Latin@, so what pair is it you want me to wear?? The Spanish side of my family, or the Latin@ side??

Dee said...

Going back to the topic, Globalization and our evolving multi cultural society, with women in the majority.

As I stated in this blog, our country now is majority multi racial, multi ethnic. In the past, the northern european white male has been the dominant culture in business and in the government.

Now, however, the tide is changing. The dominant culture is becoming the AMERICAN Culture which is multi ethnic, multi racial, and female majority.

It is time to put Europe away. We are our own culture. We are our own people. We do not have to rely on the mindsets of the past dominant cultures.

Dee said...

Barack Obama has broken the glass ceiling.
I would also like to see a Woman President after 8 years.

Dee said...

Analisa,
You are right! Brilliant post!
Education is absolutely the key to our future success.
With all the ANTI side rhetoric of "dumbing down" "lower intelligence" it is idiotic that they shoot down the Dream Act.

Analisa said....
The 'Dumbing down of America' is another code word for "minorities are too dumb to compete with the superior intellects of white folks." Now, I'm a teacher and as part of my teacher training, I visited a number of schools. I found it interesting that the schools in white neighborhoods are well equipped with up-to-date textbooks, advanced placement courses, computers and credentialed teachers who are well trained in their profession. By contrast, children who live in minority neighborhoods are forced to attend schools with fewer supplies, outdated textbooks and teachers who are, by and large, uncredentialed. They lack the advanced placement courses of school districts with more money. So it is a LACK OF OPPORTUNITY and that is leading to the "dumbing down" of America's minority children. We have to turn this equation around if we care about America's future because we are becoming more "brown" as a nation. If we wish to compete globally, we can't afford to continue to the practice of discrimination when it comes to educating minority children. Future generation of leaders will come from these communities. Let's give these kids a chance to succeed.

Analisa

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "It is time to put Europe away. We are our own culture. We are our own people. We do not have to rely on the mindsets of the past dominant cultures."

Does this mean we are going to have a book burning to relieve our "American" culture of its European influence: John Lock, Nicolo Machiavelli, Immanuel Kant, Cicero, Homer, Bacon, Marx, Winston Churchill,Seneca, Thucydides,Plutarch, Jonathan Swift, Adam Smith, and all those high falutin' Greeks and others white guys? Maybe all that will be left is Don Quixote.

ultima said...

"it is idiotic that they shoot down the Dream Act."

Why not spend that money on citizens regardless of color?

ultima said...

"What you fail to understand is that there is a long history of racism in this country."

Actually you rarely find anyone who is not aware of our history of racism. How many know about the history of interracial problems in this country: the English hating the Germans, many hating the Irish, the Polacks, WOPS, etc. all within the Caucasian race?

Liquidmicro said...

"Dee said...

Liquid,
This is a good one. Half of your family is Hispanic-Latin@
Which part."


My mothers side. She has half, I have told you before 25% Spanish and 25% Latin@/Mexican. I have also stated I have North American Indigenous on my moths side 6 generations back.

My fathers side, Bavarian/German.

This must be the judging by the look thing, right.

ultima said...

"children who live in minority neighborhoods are forced to attend schools with fewer supplies, .."

This is generally more of a problem of the level of income rather than minorities per se. Many state have moved toward and equalization of funding by diverting some of the property taxes collected in the more affluent areas to the less affluent school districts. I believe there is more to this than meets the eye. I come from a very poor family and went to school where there were only 50 students in the whole high school. The elementary school was downstairs in the same building. We wore hand-me-down band uniforms, had a very limited library, and textbooks were generally old and well worn. Yet, many of the graduates from this small school did extremely well. The only equipment we had were some old beatup typewriters for typing class.

Liquidmicro said...

"Education is absolutely the key to our future success.
With all the ANTI side rhetoric of "dumbing down" "lower intelligence" it is idiotic that they shoot down the Dream Act."


Yet it is your ethnic like that are the ones not graduating or excelling. What does the dream act have to do with anything other than allowing "Illegal Aliens" to pay in state tuition?? It does not prohibit them from attending college.

Liquidmicro said...

"The 'Dumbing down of America' is another code word for "minorities are too dumb to compete with the superior intellects of white folks."


I provided a link before in regards to this statement. Hispanics have a different mindset when it comes to education. They have their children help with income instead of learning and doing homework.

http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2008/07/californias_high_dropout_rates_of_latino.html

"This was but only one thing mentioned, most of what was mentioned was the emphasis that is put on these students by parents and peers. "Let's say a Latino student is studying and an Asian student is studying," Martinez said. "The Latino parent will often say, 'Hey, come help me out real quick, then you can go back to your studying.' Where the Asian parent will say, 'Oh, you're doing your homework. OK, you finish, and then after you're done, you come help me.' "

And this:
"Frank D. Bean, a professor of sociology at UC Irvine's Center for Research on Immigration, Population and Public Policy, has studied the Mexican work ethic and found that work and education occupy the same pedestal, and in some cases, work is even more valued.

Bean said his research shows that children of Latino immigrants, if they drop out of school, are more likely to be working than most other students who leave school.

"In Latino families, being able to work to provide defines your manhood, your worthiness," said Min Zhou, a UCLA sociology professor who has studied working-class Korean and Chinese communities."


While I agree with your "expectational conditioning" to a small degree, however it is only a portion of the actual overall problem. I disagree with you only blaming the schools and the persons at the schools, the parents also should be held accountable, you allow them to slide with no blame."

You will note almost every comment blames the parents.

Anonymous said...

Nearlly 80% of this country is still white and I posted those statitics on the racial composition of this country just recently in here, so you are incorrect about your claims of a majority multi-cultural, multi-ethnic country, Dee. There is no denying the FACTS!

Anonymous said...

The American culture today is still the same dominant culture that it has been since its founding but do dream on that it has changed drastically and is something else. We have a dominant culture with sub-cultures also practiced in this country. That hasn't changed since whites are still 80% of our population.

Dee said...

Wrong!
The problem is the census and the way the census form is set up.
The majority of the country is multi racial and multi ethnic.
Perhaps with the next census people will select the correct categories. Hopefully this will presented in a different format than previously displayed if the purpose is to define the correct categories.

Anonymous said...
Nearlly 80% of this country is still white and I posted those statitics on the racial composition of this country just recently in here, so you are incorrect about your claims of a majority multi-cultural, multi-ethnic country, Dee. There is no denying the FACTS!

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

You know, these old dudes are just raging against the night with the demise of this outdated paradigm where white males had all the power. As Yave said on Nov 4 when we elected Obama the first African-American president...

"This new time is ours, all of ours, a time for all Americans, not just for some Americans.
...
So antis, rage away--things are changing whether you like it or not ..."

Amen!

Anonymous said...

You are the one that is wrong. We still have a majority white-anglo country. Why does that bother you so? I have never said there aren't other ethnicities or races in this country but they are among the minority. Why don't you have a problem with Hispanics being the majority in Mexico, Asians being the majority in China? You won't answer that though, will you Dee or Analisa?

Anonymous said...

Dee:
You choose to hurl the term racism instead of discussing the topic. How telling! This illustrates your FEAR of discussing this topic.


Are you kidding here Dee? You and Analisa are the ones constantly hurling the RACISM term here against whites or anyone against illegal immigrants. What a self-righteous hypocrite you are.

Anonymous said...

Analisa, don't blame American citizens for the "dumbing down" of our schools. The reason for this dumbing down is so obvious....kids whose parents have refused to assimilate and learn English and are not smart enough to tell their kids how important it is to learn the language of their country and instead teach them they are the eternal victim. The only people keeping Hispanics down are Hispanics.

The Arizonian said...

My issue comes from not what 'race' has power or providence, but rather WHO.....
I couldn't care less of someone's skin-tone. I base my opinion of someone based on their actions and words.
But....
More often than not, if I say anything negative about someone who isn't 'white', I'm immediately labeled racist. That gets real annoying.
Everyone is equal in my eyes, and I don't hold back the compliments or criticisms based on a pseudo-classification system (I.E. different races). However, I will use Nationality (Canadian, Pakastani, Etc.) in criticisms, if the person I have an issue with is not a US citizen.
This is why I will typically use apostrophes to frame 'race' words:
I.E. 'white' or 'latino'.
Again that is because I don't recognize 'race'. I recognize people and nations, not skin tone.


On a side note...
The schools are dumbing down because of a lack of will to hold people to a standard anymore. No one can lose, everyone wins......
Prime example is the AIMS test. From wikipedia:
"The Goldwater Institute noted that the state has lowered the passing bar or made content easier every year since 1999, with failure rates falling from about 60 percent in 2002 to 2004 to 30 percent in 2005. This defeats one of the main features of a criterion based test, the use of a fixed, unmoving standard which can be compared across years."

The Arizonian said...

Dee said:
"Perhaps with the next census people will select the correct categories"

I agree:
Natural Citizen[]
Nationalized Citizen[]
Visa Holder[]
Other*[]
* Other doesn't exclude you from the Census, and all information will be used for internal use only

No more racist pseudo-classification system.....

Dee said...

AZ,
I am curious about you.
I do like you. I have never labeled you a racist.
I stick to issues. So does Analisa, Dave, Czech and LMJ.
I have not seen anyone on my blog call YOU a racist.
However, what I do see is, on my blog and in many forums and comment sections, people are quick to do as you have done here, get hyper sensitive with the word Racist when it is obvious Racist terms have been used. Why is that?


Arizonian said...
More often than not, if I say anything negative about someone who isn't 'white', I'm immediately labeled racist. That gets real annoying.

Analisa said...

“Not smart enough”?? Oh, but you’re not the slightest bit prejudiced, I suppose. Totally color blind, are you? You’re not even smart enough to question your own stereotypes about other people. You hurl insults at an entire ethnic group (Hispanics), as if you’re some kind of expert on Hispanic culture. Then you rail about the “dumbing down of America”? Yeah, tell me about it.

Anonymous said:
“The reason for this dumbing down is so obvious....kids whose parents have refused to assimilate and learn English and are not smart enough to tell their kids how important it is to learn the language of their country and instead teach them they are the eternal victim.” – Anon

Analisa said...

Dee,

I think we should keep a list of all the ANTIs' most offensively racist comments. The fact that liquid can find some racist white academic to back him up is not surprising. Unfortunately, there are a few bigots in academia. Fortunately, not the majority.

Erudite opinions of liquidmicro on Latino culture:
“Yet it is your ethnic like that are the ones not graduating or excelling.”-liquidmicro

“Hispanics have a different mindset when it comes to education. They have their children help with income instead of learning and doing homework.” -liquidmicro

Analisa said...

"your ethnic like"?? What would that be, Liquid. Tell us all about Dee's "ethnic like." You seem to be quite the expert.

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

“Yet it is your ethnic like”…. “Hispanics have a different mindset …” Liquid, are you even smart enough to understand how these attitudes are offensive? Moreover, they’re not even remotely true. In all the time I’ve been teaching, I’ve never met a Hispanic parent who doesn’t value education for their children. In fact, this is one of the reasons they make the enormous sacrifices that they do - so that their children can have opportunities they never had. Stop spreading these stupid stereotypes. You are NO expert on Latinos or Hispanic culture. If you want to educate yourself about this, instead of spouting off all the time, why don’t you enough wisdom and humility to ask Dee about it? Otherwise, you just come off as a pompous fool and a bigot to boot.

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...

Dee,

Like you, I support the Dream Act wholeheartedly. I know a number of undocumented students who are going on to schools like UC Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard (other colleges, too). This gives the lie to the ANTIs' claim that Latinos are not capable of graduating or excelling. Where Latinos have been held back, it is precisely because of people like the ANTIs who don't wish to see minority children succeed. So, they keep them from having the same opportunities that their own children enjoy. The truth is, they (ANTIs) rather enjoy having an underclass they can look down their noses at. As you said, education is the key to success. That's why I support EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to a good education for all children, regardless of their race or status.

Dee said:
"Education is absolutely the key to our future success.
With all the ANTI side rhetoric of "dumbing down" "lower intelligence" it is idiotic that they shoot down the Dream Act."

The Arizonian said...

Honestly, I'm not sure if anyone on this blog has called me a racist, maybe, I just don't remember.

All I said was, it has happened before, but I never specified a forum.

But what I have seen here is the r word throw around in an issue that should be about law enforcement instead of a 'racial' debate. You keep citing Jim Crowe laws.... which I believe to be an unfounded argument.

Jim Crowe laws specifically targeted those of different skin tones while immigration law doesn't.
But, many "assume" that it does...

That is also annoying.

The Arizonian said...

Analisa said...
I know a number of undocumented students who are going on to schools like UC Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard (other colleges, too).

Let us not forget ASU:
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/228449.php

ASU scholarships for illegal immigrants being revived
Associated Press
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 03.06.2008
advertisement
PHOENIX — Private donors are trying to revive a controversial scholarship that benefited Arizona State University students who are in the country illegally.
The special scholarship's funding ran out for the 2008-09 school year but ASU officials say they're working with a third-party group to provide scholarship money.
ASU President Michael Crow said it's his hope that enough money will be available to cover the estimated 200 to 300 students who have to pay higher, out-of-state tuition as a result of changes in state law.
University officials are advising those students to go ahead and register for fall courses.
A fund called the American Dream Fund Coalition has been set up and is being maintained by the nonprofit group Chicanos Por La Causa.
Crow estimates the cost at about $3 million a year, adding that the money will come from private sources and not state funding.
For the past year, 207 undocumented immigrants who graduated from Arizona high schools have received private scholarship money through the ASU Foundation.
The scholarships started after the voter-approved Proposition 300 took effect in late 2006 — requiring illegal immigrants to pay out-of-state tuition at the state's universities and community colleges.
Out-of-state tuition and fees are about $17,000 a year at ASU while the in-state amount is nearly $5,000.
The law also prevents illegal immigrants from receiving state scholarships.
ASU officials have maintained the scholarship is legal because they use private money and not state money.
Some of the special-class international students are from China and other countries and lack proof of citizenship or legal residency but "are really great students," Crow said.

Liquidmicro said...

Is that kinda like how you think you are an expert on 'white' people?? All you talk about is assumptions and insinuations of what is posted. My Education link was directly from Marisa's sight. Did you tale the time to read her article and all the comments left?? Or did you just jump to conclusions?? You stereotype ANTI's in every post. AZ put it to you correctly in Dee's new topic, why teach tolerance when acceptance is much better??

Until you can get off your race baiting and actually discuss something instead of pointing fingers, actually comprehend what we are saying, the only bigot then seems to be you. Your assumptions and insinuations equate to your own ignorance.

Liquidmicro said...

"However, what I do see is, on my blog and in many forums and comment sections, people are quick to do as you have done here, get hyper sensitive with the word Racist when it is obvious Racist terms have been used. Why is that?"

Do you even see your own racist comments?? Or is it because you are the blog owner you can't possibly have any??

Liquidmicro said...

"The fact that liquid can find some racist white academic to back him up is not surprising."

Boy your ignorance is just right out in the open, isn't it. you didn't even take the time to read the link, or to what Marisa linked to. You just jump to conclusions and start with the 'racist' playing. Keep playing that card though, eventually your next card will come up, 'the joker' to some to others 'the fool'.

Liquidmicro said...

All you have is, 'attack the messenger' mentality. What is it Dee likes to say, 'How telling!!'.

Analisa said...

I'm not talking about white people. I'm talking about the haters among them: mainly, the ANTIs on this site. I know many people who are white who are exceptionally fine people. Dee blogged about one of her heros: Robert Reich.I have my own heros who are white, starting with my father. I'm sure Dee would agree with me that Dave and Yave are heros, too. Imagine how brave you have to be to come out on this issue - to work for the rights of some of the most persecuted people: i.e. the undocumented. You have to deal with haters, some of whom are pretty violent. These white men are my heros. But you're so caught up in your own victim mentality that you can't hear what we're saying. Too bad...but it's not my problem.

liquidmicro said:
"Is that kinda like how you think you are an expert on 'white' people?? All you talk about is assumptions and insinuations of what is posted. -liquidmicro

Liquidmicro said...

"to work for the rights of some of the most persecuted people: i.e. the undocumented."


That's just it, they have "NO RIGHTS", simply because they failed to come here legally or they overstayed their visa. They deserve "NO RIGHTS", unless they are charged with an infamous crime, i.e. a felony, otherwise they are simply detained and/or deported, and according to the Charter of the UN, the USA falls in line with all International Laws in regards to "Illegal Aliens".


"But you're so caught up in your own victim mentality that you can't hear what we're saying. Too bad...but it's not my problem."

We do know exactly what you are saying, look at this topic, Its not about culture or globalization as Dee's title might suggest, its more about how you and yours have been oppressed by White European Males and how you are so underrepresented in Government. You think Obama is going to make all OK simply because he is not 'white'. You forget he is nothing more than a politician. The problem is you and yours don't debate the argument, you rather attack the messenger, its easier for you that way to play the race card game. You are confused as to what the Dominant Culture is in the USA. To you its all the White European Males fault. You discount anything that is objective in its presentation and label it immediately if it doesn't live up to your biasness. Too bad...but it's not my problem.

Anonymous said...

So to want the laws of our country upheld is being a hater? Point out the hate from the anti's in here. I haven't seen any.

Liquidmicro said...

What Dee has done is to promote an ideal by this topic of what she perceives to be a multi-cultural society. To many things are confused within her argument. Dominant Culture, sub-cultures, Heritage, classism, etc. They are not interchangeable.

What she proposes is individual core values instead of Societal core values, thus breaking down the USA into separate Societal core areas based on the believing of individual core values and those of the like creating core groups. This in itself does not work as laws are created to be equal to all, and does not apply to just some and not others. You don't get to pick and choose what societal laws 'you' want to follow.

Xanthippa explains it quite simply. "By accepting that every culture has an equal right to exist in a society, you are necessarily denying equality to each and every individual whose culture does not subscribe to the principle of equality of individuals.

Therefore, within a society, you can either have equality of individuals, or you can have equality of cultures (which is what the term ‘multiculturalism’ means). You cannot possibly have both."

Liquidmicro said...

If true multiculturalism is what is wanted then you are in fact advocating for the dismantling of the USA as each individual cultural group stakes out its own area within an individual state or the actual takeover of an entire state to form a new nation such as the Indigenous North Americans have.

The Arizonian said...

I've resisted enough...

Shouldn't the current "Global Economic Crisis" be evidence enough against Globalization?

When you have everything interconnected in a web, it falls together. The US economy burped and now we're dragging the rest of the world down with us.

Kinda like an alcoholic in the family that everyone tries to help, right down to utter chaos, bringing the whole family with them.

We are a 'culturally diverse' country based on our (ever shrinking) freedoms, prosperity and access to world travel. This was a place you could come to to be free and prosper.

As far as the immigration debate, I would like to quote, once again, Janet MurguĂ­a, CEO of the National Council of La Raza, a leading Hispanic civil rights group :
"First, as a sovereign nation, the United States has the right to determine who comes and who stays. . . [It also] has a right to consider enforcement at a variety of levels, including border enforcement, interior enforcement, and workplace enforcement. . . We support enforcement...[because] as Americans, we recognize it's the right thing to do."
http://www.nclr.org/files/42528_file_CHICANOFEDSPEECHMAY2005FINAL.pdf

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