I have been participating on a few political and immigration blogs this weekend. On a few of the blogs, the ANTI side continues to blame the illegal immigrants for lower wages for African Americans. They cite various wage studies, however they never blame the true culprits, the greedy employers. To understand this, we should look at a very real and current example. Let´s look at what is happening in Detroit right now. GM and Chrysler just had massive auto worker layoffs. I suggested to one ANTI responder on the Reich Blog to "READ THIS AND WEEP then try, in your farthest fetched imagination, to try and blame Illegal Immigrants for Reduced Wages of African Americans!! I wonder how Professor B will work this into his figures!"
US auto workers denounce UAW betrayal at Ford “The union is so intertwined with the company they are giving away the whole store”By Jerry White, 6 November 2007Ford workers reacted with disgust and anger Monday as they learned further details about the four-year labor agreement that the United Auto Workers union reached with Ford Motor Company over the weekend. The new contract covers 54,000 workers employed by the second largest US automaker.The concessions go even further than the historic rollbacks granted to General Motors and Chrysler. The contract will allow Ford to accelerate its plans to eliminate tens of thousands of jobs and replace higher-paid workers with a smaller, more brutally exploited workforce, making half the wages.
Another Article - Wall Street Journal: Ford Looks to Trim Up to 13,000 More Jobs
One of Ford's goals with the latest buyouts is to replace many workers with new employees who will earn a lower wage under terms of its recently negotiated labor agreement. New hires will earn a little more than $14 an hour, about half of what current union workers earn. That was a key cog in the deal that helped Ford to narrow its competitive cost-gap with nonunionized Asian rivals such as Toyota Motor Corp. The number of these so-called second-tier wage workers is capped at 20% of Ford's work force under terms of the new pact.Ford hopes to replace all workers at its Rawsonville and Sterling plants outside Detroit with lower-wage hires, a person familiar with the matter said. Those jobs don't count toward the 20% cap on lower-wage workers under the labor accord.
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The question is: Do you think the price of a Ford vehicle will decline, stay the same, or increase? Ford may be cutting its costs and screwing the union labor for cheap labor, again its all about the profits. I'm willing to bet that the costs of the vehicles go down but so will the quality of the vehicle, me I much prefer quality over cheaper crap that in the long run will spend more for repairs than the car may be worth.
This can also be the same argument the PRO side has with the $5 lettuce.
So Liquid, given what GM is doing, why aren´t the ANTIs, those on your side, rallying against them? Your side says one of the problems with illegal immigration is the illegals bring down the wages for minorities. GM is not doing this for illegal immigrants. They are doing it for profit. Isn´t this the same thing that the Contruction and Meat Packing plants did? And now are staffing illegal immigrants? Shouldn´t your side me massively demontrating against GM? Why aren´t you?
The bottom line is, lowering wages is NOT an illegal immigration issue, it is an Employer issue!!!
In this case, Dee, its actually about trade agreements. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler are all failing. Toyota is now the biggest auto manufacturer in the USA. Chrysler has moved plants to Mexico.
Why would the ANTI's be rallying against the automakers, the automakers should be rallying against the Gov't about their losing to foreign automakers with great import and business allocations by our own Gov't. We are being bought up by foreign countries. Now, this has nothing to do what so ever with 'Illegal Immigration'. It does have to do with unfair trade and business dealings of our Gov't and foreign Gov't's.
You are comparing apples to tomato's. Fruits to vegetables.
Liquid,
I will place a bet with you, my friend.
The moment the ANTIs hear of someone with lapsed papers who is employed at GM with one of these $14 an hour jobs, they will proclaim illegal immigrants are the sole cause of low paying jobs at GM. (their standard mode of operations)
Write this date down because when I see the 1st ANTI blog on this, I am going to post it and remind you.
Liquid, Illegal Immigration isn´t even about Illegal Immigration.
It has EVERYTHING to do with unfair trade and business dealings of our Gov't and foreign Gov't's.
Where is Lupita when we need her in a discussion!!
Dee said...
Liquid, Illegal Immigration isn´t even about Illegal Immigration.
I would say that this part is about a 50% trade problem and a 50% greed problem.
Dee,
with all due respect, you never answered my question
you Dee have posted articles saying there is a labor shortage
Dee, do you personally believe that african american construction workers are making more money per hour today Jan 2008 in Oklahoma than they did in Jan 2007?
Every article i have ever read about a labor shortage implies that shortages of labor cause higher wages
Dee please be blunt and answer the question. In your opinion have wages for african american construction workers gone up in oklahoma or not?
no more evasions please
dee
why oh why is it so hard for you to give us a straight answer?
please be blunt - and direct - you keep posting these articles about labor shortages -
have the labor shortages caused higher wages or not?
be direct
Anon,
You are missing the point completely. The reason wages decrease is because Business lowers them. As in the Detroit example, GM lowered the wages of the workers. Had absolutely NOTHING to do with illegal immigration. The same can be said in Construction or Meat Packing. Employers look to reduce costs. Anyone in business knows the largest cost in business are employee wages and benefits. The quickest way to reduce cost is to reduce wages. By reducing costs, you often increase profits.
Your question is almost ridiculous. If you raise wages do you increase profits? No. Do you increase costs? Yes.
Why are we facing labor shortages? Most researchers tell us this is largely due to the aging boomer population. The 12M has been a quick fix for most employers to feel the need. Will eliminating the 12M fill the labor shortage? Of course not. We still have the shortage. Will eliminating the 12M raise wages? Some locations that have enforced strict laws had some companies increase wages. The shortages were not filled. The problems still existed.
Show me your urls from legitimate sources that show increased wages resolve labor shortages in locations that enforced retrictionist laws. SHOW ME.
Dee
with all due respect,
you have not answered the question
you keep posting these articles saying that there is a labor shortage in oklahoma
you keep posting the articles in which employers cry and moan about how hard it is to find employees
Dee, i am asking you this again,
when you read those articles and think about it, do you Dee believe that those employers are today offering higher starting wages than they did a year ago
putting it another way Dee, has the labor shortage resulted in higher wages
Again, i implore you as someone who is seeking to get to the truth here, answer the question
I have also proven that it is Big Business itself that reduces wages. Reduced wages impact African Americans and all citizens in the poverty level. Big Business reducing wages has NOTHING to do with illegal immigration.
Read the articles. It is all there. The problem is, you choose NOT to read and understand the facts.
Dee,
please be honest and clear.
do you personally think that wages go up when there is a labor shortage?
do you believe that labor shortages raise wages?
Dee, if you were a CPA would you want to live in a city with a severe shortage of CPAs? Do you think a severe shortage of CPA's would allow you to charge high prices and make more money?
Dee, if you were a CPA and suddenly half the CPA's in your city decided to leave, would that create a shortage?
Dee, if you were a CPA wouldn't you pray to god frequently that the other CPAs would leave your city so that you could raise your fees and better support your family?
Dee, do you think african american construction workers are different from cpas? if so how?
Dee if you were an african american construction worker, would you hope and pray for competing construction workers to leave your state so that you could charge higher prices for your services?
Dee, do you believe that shortages create wage increases?
Dee, here is a clip from the city journal article. i am sorry i can not post the whole thing.
Black unease about immigration goes back a long way. In the 1870s, former slave Frederick Douglass warned that immigrants were displacing free blacks in the labor market. Twenty-five years later, Booker T. Washington exhorted America’s industrialists to “cast down your bucket” not among new immigrants but “among the eight million Negros . . . who have without strikes and labor wars tilled your fields, cleared your forests, builded your railroads and cities.” Blacks supported federal legislation in 1882 that restricted Chinese immigration to the United States. They favored the immigration reform acts of the 1920s, which limited European immigration, and also urged restrictions on Mexican workers: “If the million Mexicans who have entered the country have not displaced Negro workers, whom have they displaced?” asked black journalist George Schuyler in 1928.
A case study of Los Angeles janitorial services cited in a Government Accounting Office report captures the enormity of the shift. It began in the late 1970s, as several small firms began hiring Mexican janitors at low pay, prompting building owners to drop contracts with the companies that employed blacks in favor of the cheaper upstarts. As the immigrant-dominated firms grabbed more business, industry wages slipped from a peak of $6.58 an hour in 1983 to $5.63 an hour in 1985. The number of black janitors in L.A. plummeted from about 2,500 in the late 1970s to only 600 by 1985. Today, the city’s janitorial industry, like apparel manufacturing and hotel services, is almost entirely immigrant.
Dee,
one person who felt strongly that illegal immigration leads to lower wages was Cesar Chavez.
Just do a google search on Chavez and immigration. There are literally dozens of citations dealing with the many speeches he gave against illegal immigration.
At the grssroots level more and more black workers are starting to state how strongly they agree with Barbara Jordan. Barbara Jordan studied this issue for a long time and came to the conclusion that immigration from mexico causes blacks to get lower wages. Again, just google Barbara Jordan and immigration and you will see all her work on this subject.
Dee, you can't hold down the truth. More and more people who love and admire Chavez, Jordan, Gompers, and the heroes of the progressive movement. More and more people who believe in social justice are seeing the truth - a tsunami is coming. The Arizona law is just the start of things
__________________
In 1969, Chavez actually led a march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration, accompanied by Sen. Walter Mondale and Ralph Abernathy, whom alert readers will recognize as Martin Luther King's successor as head of the Southern Leadership Conference.
Chavez demanded that the federal government close the border, routinely reported suspected illegal immigrants to immigration officials, and put his brother in charge of Minutemen-like border patrols which on more than one occasion resulted in the beatings of intruders.
Anon,
City Journal is an ANTI Conservative think tank. Quotes referenced in this opinion piece date back pre-slavery with issues relating to overall immigrants (e.g. European, Chinese and others).
What I asked for is: Show me your urls from legitimate sources that show increased wages resolve labor shortages in locations that enforced retrictionist laws. SHOW ME.
When Cesar Chavez spoke out, he was forming UFW and he was speaking out against strike breakers. Dolores Huerta was at his side. Had he lived, he too, as Dolores Huerta, would be in PRO support of CIR.
The facts are: it is Big Business itself that reduces wages. Reduced wages impact African Americans and all citizens in the poverty level. Big Business reducing wages has NOTHING to do with illegal immigration.
Read the articles. It is all there. The problem is, you choose NOT to read and understand the facts.
No matter what your ANTI side wishes or regardless of what your side says, you are NOT going to start a race war between Hispanics and African Americans. We believe in a multi cultural, equal rights America! That is our future!
Chris Rock said, "I know THEY want me to be against the Mexican Americans, but I ain´t gonna do it. WE know that once THEY GET RID OF THEM, WE ARE NEXT!"
No dee it is the law of supply and demand. If there is a huge supply of cheap illegal workers, employers will drop their wages.
So now you are accusing one of your bloggers of trying to start a race war? I thought you said you wanted civil debate? That is an outright insult!
You are doing your usual and arguing from the radical side of the anti's. When will you stop doing that? I already told you that the majority of anti's are just for the rule of law. They aren't trying to start a race war between Blacks and Hispanics either. There is genuine friction between some Blacks and some Hispanics but it has nothing to do with the anti movement who aren't of either race.
Dee, the research of Dr Borjas is crystal clear.
When fine upstanding hardworking salt of the earth good folks from mexico move to an area, they drive down the wages of african americans.
the research of Dr Borjas aggrees 100% with the below - from the GAO
A case study of Los Angeles janitorial services cited in a Government Accounting Office report captures the enormity of the shift. It began in the late 1970s, as several small firms began hiring Mexican janitors at low pay, prompting building owners to drop contracts with the companies that employed blacks in favor of the cheaper upstarts. As the immigrant-dominated firms grabbed more business, industry wages slipped from a peak of $6.58 an hour in 1983 to $5.63 an hour in 1985. The number of black janitors in L.A. plummeted from about 2,500 in the late 1970s to only 600 by 1985. Today, the city’s janitorial industry, like apparel manufacturing and hotel services, is almost entirely immigrant.
Dee, the article is clear - folks from mexico move in and SMALL business (not big business) hires them and the result is firing of the african american janitors.
Dee, you still haven't answered the question. I have asked it to you almost a dozen times -
YOU have stated there is a labor shortage in Oklahoma. I am asking you, in your opinion has this led employers to raise wages?
Has the labor shortage caused an increase in wages
why are you unwilling to answer a simple yes or no question - it seems to me that every single other person on this board is willing to answer simple questions.
You are acting very evasive
Obviously, there are many factors at work in the Ford layoffs. Mismanagement is the top one on my list. The executive suite was asleep at the switch while the Koreans, Japanese and Germans were busy gaining market share. The workers are culpable by not immediately allowing their unions to negotiate contracts that would enable them to remain competitive with the Japanese and Korean auto makers. They have simply priced themselves out of the business. I would like them to enjoy the higher wages but a company cannot survive if it has to pay more wages and benefits than the competition. This is one of the drawbacks of free markets where the U.S. doesn't necessarily earn a quid pro quo for allowing imports to shift our balance of payments into permanent negative territory.
So I am admitting that Ford's problem cannot be blamed solely on cheap Mexican or other foreign labor yet we know that Dee's father worked in Detroit so it would not be unreasonable to expect that somewhere in the supply chain for the auto makers, cheap labor is having an impact on citizens on the lowest rungs of the economic ladder. This is a far cry from trying to stir up trouble between blacks and Hispanics. That seems to exist without any encouragement in LA.
I suppose one could side with Dee against Ford and GM and destroy our entire domestic auto industry. That ire could be better placed against those other auto makers who have been undercutting Ford and GM both in cost and in managerial vision and innovation.
A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.
The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat.? A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.
Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing. Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.
They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles.
Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the senior executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was outsourced to India.
Sadly, The End.
Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last 30 years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last 30 years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.
The last quarter's result:
TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.
Ford folks are still scratching their heads.
IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.
Employers who wish to stay in business in the U.S. cannot reduce wages unilaterally except by hiring cheaper replacement, often illegal aliens or by bargaining with unions and demonstrating to them that such changes are necessary to preserve jobs. Supply and demand is another factor but unions and cheap illegal labor are other important factors, perhaps not in every company but in many.
Pat, You are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Wrong!!!! Look at what happened in Detroit! GM lowered the wages. YOU CANNOT DENY THE FACTS!! READ THE ARTICLE. CALL DETROIT!
Gosh!! STOP BEING IN DENIAL!!!
Sorry Anon.
You and Dr. B. are incorrect. Look at Detroit.
GM lowered the wages. They cut them in half for auto workers. They did this with the support of the UAW.
This had NOTHING... NOTHING to do with Illegal Immigration!!
My Dad worked in Lansing, not Detroit Ulty.
He transitioned from Migrant Labor, as a legal citizen, to an auto worker job. He applied, passed the requirements, and was hired, as did other applicants, many of them Mexican American citizens.
That is how life works Ulty. You apply for a job and if you qualify you are hired. If you do a good job, you continue employment. If you don´t do a good job you are fired. The company stays in business if they sell their product if their is a need and buyers buy, then the company earns a profit. It is called supply and demand.
The problem was, the company and the union did not stay competitive. Their costs outweighed their profit so they had to cut costs.
none of this has anything to do with illegal immigration.
Ulty,
What is sad is, you have so much difficulty blaming the employers for reduced wages. Yet, you go to the extremes to try and blame illegal immigrants.
None are so blind as those who will not see!
Dee
can i ask you again for the tenth time
ARE WAGES GOING UP IN OKLAHOMA NOW FOR CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
Just answer the darn question.
dee, I am in denial about what? Employers will decrease wages wherever they can get away with it and one of the reasons they can do that is because of the supply of cheap illegal labor. I never said anything about GM!
Well
George borjas did a very detailed study of the wage market in phoenix and concluded that immigrants from mexico pushed down wages for unskilled workers (and of course many african americans fall in this category)
this study caused an earthquake in the african american community in phoenix and helped the new law get passed
anyone that uses google can read about this - it is explosive stuff
borjas is absolutely crystal clear on this - what is new is the attention borjas is getting in the community
As african americans in georgia and other states hear more about his research they are demanding laws similar to the arizona law
again, just use google and you will see more info on the borjas study
Dee i see you all over the web
however you haven't answered the question
ARE WAGES GOING UP IN OKLAHOMA NOW FOR CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
Dee, I don't understand why you're arguing with anon about illegal-immigrants keeping wages down, because he's absolutely right - they also keep inflation down which, in the end, almost neutralizes this gain in wages -, GM lowering wages on their own is an exception to the rule.
Anon's mistake or misguidedness, IMO, is that he's focusing on African-Americans, when in fact illegal-immigrants hurt all poor Americans - including Hispanic-Americans. I would think that you who understands that big-business is the biggest supporter of illegal-immigration would accept the fact that low-wages - and non-existent worker rights - make illegal-immigrants attractive to big-business.
Also, IIRC, Borjas' work, by his own admission, does not take into account the demand for illegal-immigrant workers; he doesn't know if there are enough unemployed Americans to take over their jobs. Their isn't. Not because of wage related factors, but because, even though unemployment is higher than usual today, it still isn't high or bad enough to offset the loss of illegal-immigrants. In fact, unemployment is usually lowest in cities and states with the biggest populations of illegal-immigrants.
Obviously, there are unemployed Americans and they are the ones taking over those new available jobs at higher wages, but that doesn't mean that businesses are replacing all their lost workers, and it doesn't mean that this is a true victory for poor Americans.
I still believe that the legalization of some illegal-immigrants, which the failed reform would have accomplished, would solve this problem better than these types of solutions.
P.S. Sorry about your loss. My late condolences to you and yours.
Anon,
I have answered your question many times but you are not listening to the answer.
So I will be blunt.
Your question:
ARE WAGES GOING UP IN OKLAHOMA NOW FOR CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
My Answer:
I have seen no news articles from legitimate sources that indicate wages are going up for constructions workers due to HB 1804.
All the articles from legitimate sources I have seen are reporting the Labor Shortages.
Mirror, Good to see you and thank you for your kind words. I have been thinking about my family and life and death since my mom passed and what is truly important. Spending time with my husband, kids and gbabies helps a lot, plus time on the phone and email with my siblings.
My blog and keeping up with political and immigration issues is helping as well. Even arguing with Anon, Liquid and Pat has helped.
The one thing we all agree upon is our love for our country. They can fight with me all they want but they know this is the truth.
Mirror, I have been thinking about what happened in Detroit at GM, their cutting wages in half and the impact on the local workers. As you know, I grew up in Michigan and my Dad and brothers worked in the auto plants so this news is somewhat personal to me. I first heard about the wage cuts and the impact on the people of Michigan on my trip down to the funeral. As usual, I kept my mind occupied while driving by listening to AM Talk Radio. Later, when coming back to my blog and hearing ANTIs talk about illegal immigrants being the root cause of wage cuts for citizens and particularly for African Americans, I decided to do more research on GM wage cuts. It was then I saw the truth. These wage cuts had nothing to do with immigration (legal or illegal) at all.
I think Liquid had it right when he said these wage cuts were NOT about illegal immigration but instead "It does have to do with unfair trade and business dealings of our Gov't and foreign Gov't's."
GM did this to cut costs. Anyone in business knows Labor/Wages are the highest expense. Being in business I know that in order to be competitive and increase profits, most businesses figure out a way to reduce wages or headcount. They do this by doing what GM did, outsourcing to non-union workers, outsourcing out of country (your next customer service rep is probably in India), moving their businesses offshore, or hiring illegal immigrants.
It is totally ludicrous to say the root cause of lower wages is illegal immigrants. The cause is Business Profitability and Government policies. The cause is not always greed. Sometimes it is the only way the business can stay in business. (as with GM)
The ANTIs don´t look at the big picture. They look at one data point, one nugget of information, the illegal immigrants, and they cast all the blame on them.
Anyone who studies the issue knows better.
Dee,
I respect what you are saying.
Sounds like you want to see an article on this subject
immigration enforcement raising the take home pay of american construction workers
_______________
IMMIGRANTS IN FLORIDA
Pressure driving up paychecks
Stricter immigration enforcement hits builders in the wallet
BY DEVONA WALKER
One outcome of both the legislative and enforcement attention being focused on the immigration issue could be an unintended one: higher wages.
After nearly a decade of relatively few arrests of undocumented workers, thousands have been rounded up in the last two months, with the largest action netting more than 1,000 people.
That already is making some employers think twice about hiring undocumented workers and it is making some job seekers nervous about work in highly scrutinized trades, such as construction.
The potential in Florida for wage pressure is enormous for two reasons: a job market that is as tight as it has been in the last 30 years, and the critical position that immigrants, particularly Latinos, have in one of the Sunshine State's seminal industries -- construction.
With new, more stringent regulations being talked about at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, even without action by Congress this year, enforcement is going to rise, and with it, wages.
"It's already gotten tougher to hire people who are not legally authorized to work," said Wendy Smith, an immigration attorney with Tampa's Fisher & Phillips law firm. "There is not a whole lot of evidence that American citizens are going to step up to take these 12 million jobs.
"So wages, especially in low-paying job sectors, will be driven up."
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20060703/BUSINESS/607030556
Anon,
Your July 2006 article says "COULD BE be an unintended one: higher wages" not ARE.
I saw this later article in the same newspaper: "IMMIGRANTS IN FLORIDA
State guest worker numbers up 500%
BY DEVONA WALKER
Unprecedented enforcement of the nation's immigration laws is pushing Florida growers to use guest workers at a pace not seen for 40 years."
Let me say, I agree we need to bring the 12M out of the shadows and bring them into some type of legal status. We need to stop the staffing and exploitation of illegal immigrants. As Liquid says, once we do, businesses will be forced to pay legal wages (or go out of business).
dee, what you are saying about the anti's is as usual utter BS! We do not blame illegal aliens for all of the woes of this country. Illegal aliens do contribute to those woes though. Even where wages have been reduced, illegal aliens are part of the blame but NOT ALL THE BLAME. Please speak the truth in your own blog and stop making claims about the MAJORITY of anti's that aren't true! Will you ever get off the radical anti train?
Dee,
i still don't understand.
Please give us your own opinion, straight up.
Arizona and Oklahoma have seen a massive exodus of fine hardworking undocumented workers.
Since the exodus, have wages in construction gone up in those states
be clear and blunt. Give us your opinion please
Yes, c'mon LeeMac321 tell us just how funny we ANTI's are on your site. Please tell us how you so easily overcome our weak arguments.
Hell, even Mirror disagrees with you on the topic of Dee, I don't understand why you're arguing with anon about illegal-immigrants keeping wages down, because he's absolutely right - they also keep inflation down which, in the end, almost neutralizes this gain in wages -, GM lowering wages on their own is an exception to the rule.
You don't overcome anything, you don't answer anything. You interject articles as laid claim to your winning. You call an educated, degreed economist, Borjas, incorrect on his issues. You continue to call for CIR with your list of 3 items, yet you continuously and purposely put them in an incorrect order to confound your true agenda. Why the dishonesty?? You wish to continue with word games..... so can I.
Look,
I am just befuddled
I mean, every \honest person who has spoken to workers and to businesses in Arizona and Oklahoma knows that since the undocumented folks have left those states there has been a labor shortage, and a labor shortage causes higher wages.
Dee states that there IS a labor shortage but that wages have NOT gone up. This defies not just borjas but every other economist who has studied supply and demand
This bizarre stance of course will lead no new readers of this blog to believe the rest of what Dee says. Even though much of the rest of her position is quite reasonable.
I have a prediction - Dee will delete this whole thread at some point in the future so there is no evidence to undermine her other arguments
liquid, dee posting under another name in another forum and insulting the members of her blog for all to read says a lot about how much she appreciates and respects those of us who post in here.
Pat,
The reason I started this post was because one of our Anon´s has been pushing this issue and blaming illegal immigrants on other blogs. He was on Borjas and Reich blogs trying to push this agenda.
I knew he was wrong. He reminded me of what I heard is happening in Detroit at GM. Hence this post.
Gosh Liquid, I am flattered you followed me over to HB. We do email each other but when I originally signed up over there, I screwed up my password and couldn´t log in as Dee (plus they have other Dees) so I had to use my backup id.
Liquid,
As I have said, the root cause to the lower wages issue is Business Profitability and Government policies. The symptoms of this are lower wages and to some extent, illegal immigration.
You have said this yourself.
Liquid and Pat,
What is happening is you see this as the truth. The root cause is Business Profitability and Government policies.
This has touched a nerve with both of you and with Anon too. You hate it when your false assumptions for root cause have been refuted successfully.
Pat,
You are so funny. You, on my blog, call me every name you can think of and I do not get angry at you. I just take you with a lump of salt. I will take you with salt and remember I like to spice things up with pepper!
Wow Dee - you say over and over again that there is a labor shortage in Arizona
Then you say over and over again that the labor shortage is not causing wages to go up
Are you even Dee or are you an anti that has somehow hacked in to Dee's blog?
This line of argument is so silly. Dr. Borjas must be laughing at you right now
I only disagreed with Dee on illegal-immigrants bringing down wages, however, the logical outcome - increased wages - to an exodus of illegal-immigrants hasn't been proven. In theory, wages should go up, and in theory, illegal-immigrants brought them down, but the truth is only the latter has been proven - or strongly supported - and it looks like Dee is still waiting on anon to provide real proof of the former, not some article about theoretical increases from before 1804.
Whatever develops will be interesting; from my point of view, illegal-immigrants aren't the problem they're just the scapegoat, big-business will find a way to continue profiting off the American people, whether that be through no or insignificant wage increases or through rises in prices they will win, because, in the end, we're just stupid quislings fooled into absolving big-business, instead we blame illegal-immigrants - who themselves are exploited - and further divide this country.
I agree with everything you say.
Big business uses illegal immigrants to push down wages.
i think every single person who has ever posted on this blog agrees with that -
the antis say that deportation will remove illegal immigrants and push up wages, and they are right
Dee says that legalizing the illegal immigrants will push up wages and she is 100% correct
all sides are correct.
so let me put on the table the following
(1) if the 20 million voluntarily self deport wages will go up
(2) if the 20 million are legalized wages will go up.
OK - we know what we agree on.
The question is, in which scenario will wages go up MORE
I believe the work of economists proves that if the 20 million voluntarily self deport wages go up MUCH MORE than if the 20 million are legalized.
Now, Dee makes a very good point - 20 million people leaving would create disruption to the economy. Labor shortages. Labor shortages have many negative effects - terrible negative effects - however they have two positive effects. first of all, wages go up, and that is a positive, and second of all employers treat their workers better since they know their workers are harder to replace.
The reasonable debate here is, what is better for all 300 million of the american citizens - is it better to have a labor shortage with higher wages or lack of a labor shortage with lower wages
If you run a business that depends on cheapest possible labor, you will be against a labor shortage.
If you are an unskilled american citizen you are likely to be strongly in favor of a labor shortage
Reasonable people can debate how much of a labor shortage we want to have, but reasonable people can not debate the fact that labor shortages generally cause higher wages
Ok Anon. You make some interesting points. However, GM throws a wrench in your entire assumption set, especially your ASSUMPTION of “remove illegal immigrants and wages will be pushed up.”
GM´s lowering wages has absolutely nothing to do with illegal immigrants and if you mass deport all 12M illegal immigrants, GM will NOT increase their wage scale. Auto workers are jobs Americans WILL do. They have plenty of trained, skilled workers, yet GM dropped their wages to $14 an hour with the Union´s full support.
This causes me to think we have to go back to the ROOT CAUSE: Business Profitability and Government policies.
The facts are, we do not know what will happen if we deport all 12M people.
What we DO know is, that in cities that have enforced restrictionist laws, they have experienced labor shortages and their economies have been negatively impacted. This leads me to believe that the same results will occur as these restrictionist laws are established and enforced in other locations.
Will wages temporarily increase in these locations? I have seen some locations (e.g. NJ, SC) raise wages to encourage workers to return, however, this did not work in the long run. Both locations wound up rescinding their laws.
dee, nothing has touched a nerve with me about wages going down. I admitted that there were several factors involved not just illegal immigration. Nice try, but no cigar.
You have always insulted others first in here, dee. We merely retaliate when you do. Pro's always do that. Then they cry victim when caught at their own game.
So the solution is to make them go home voluntarily with the e-verify system in place in the workplace (it will take 4 years to complete) and back to the rule of law which of no importance to dee as she is more concerned about money (a monstrous economy) and the illegals.
After they go home employers seek Americans to replace them at a fair wage. Where Americans cannot be found guest worker visas can be issued for foreign legal workers to refill those jobs.
The setback will be temporary under this solution and hopefully we will scale back our economy to fit a citizen population along with a REASONABLE number of immigrants allowed in each year where needed.
I don't see how anyone can argue with this. But watch, dee will try because that will slow down the Hispanization of America and that is her bottom line.
I do like this discussion because I think this brings us to the core issue. The core issue is, of course, the economy.
As I´ve witnessed GM cut their employee wages in half, I do agree with Liquid. They did not do this out of greed. They did this to cut costs so they could stay in business. Like Liquid said, "the automakers should be rallying against the Gov't about their losing to foreign automakers with great import and business allocations by our own Gov't. We are being bought up by foreign countries. Now, this has nothing to do what so ever with 'Illegal Immigration'. It does have to do with unfair trade and business dealings of our Gov't and foreign Gov't's."
In this example, we can say cutting wages is not due to employer greed. What other industries did the same? Did this happen in the Meat Packing Industry as well? Is that why Swift lowered their wages?
GM has the skilled labor, the good hearty American worker, but that will not make a difference. Wages are not going to suddenly go up for them because the illegal immigrants leave. Will it happen in the Meat Packing indusry? Construction? Not likely.
The answer has to be in Government Policies. Are we too deep in the hole to China and other foreign lenders to dig our way out of this mess?
If I were to compromise on those illegal immigrants current here, this is how I would do it.
The current law says anyone who applies for a green card must have a sponsor. So, let those illegal immigrants who have citizen sponsors apply for a green card. Now, the catch is, the sponsor must file an affidavit of support which is legally enforceable and is meant to keep the immigrant off public assistance. The sponsor is therefore legally liable for things like medical bills if the immigrant does not pay them. Also, the sponsor must submit documentation from previous years income tax forms to prove that he can support the immigrant.
Of course this should not apply to anyone with a criminal record and if the illegal immigrant does not have a sponsor, he must return to his country until he can find a sponsor.
This would allow a great many illegal immigrants into this country in a responsible way that is family friendly and helps the burden on society that illegal immigrants place for things like unpaid medical bills, etc.
This along with a secure border, deporting all criminals, and a guest worker program for agricultural workers would satisfy me (I think).
Anon, your preferred economists could be right, there might be more of an increase in wages if all the illegal-immigrants left the work force, but again, none, which I know of, is willing to take into account the obvious need for immigrant workers. It is easy for them to make a connection between illegal-immigrants and declining wages when everyone knows they are exploited, ignoring the demand for their labor and the fact that there are not enough unemployed, forget willing and able, Americans to fill their jobs.
As far as Americans being for a labor shortage, is that smart? For instance, say there is a company that requires at the minimum 100 workers to run, these new laws expel 65 of those workers so the company goes out looking for unemployed Americans offering attractive wages and maybe even benefits, but despite their desirable offer they only find 40 replacement workers and the company is forced to close down. In the end, 85 American workers are left unemployed, instead of the original 40 that found new jobs replacing the ones left by illegal-immigrants.
I am not saying that will always be the case, but to me that sounds like a reasonably likely situation - especially in the fields that illegal-immigrants typically concentrate in. That type of possible situation calls for an acceptance to the fact that we need foreign labor which has to lead to immigration reform that will legalize those desirable illegal-immigrants already here and allow for an increased and steady stream of foreign low-skilled laborers. No more of this cognitive dissonance that states we do not need illegal-immigrants when we hire them by the millions or that we should only accept highly skilled immigrants when those types of immigrants will only leave highly skilled educated Americans unemployed or at best underpaid. Where are those studies? Nowhere, let us just pile on the illegal-immigrants who already have it worst than most of their American neighbors.
That is almost a pro-immigration approach to immigration reform Patriot. You want more proof that the U.S. needs foreign labor; the fact that millions of illegal and legal immigrants are employed is simply not enough, eh?
Also, is it 12 million or 20 million? Mathematically, it would be easier to prove that America does not need 12 million additional workers, but the most defiant Americans love to repeat outrageous numbers apparently subscribing to the current administration's belief that fear, not reason, will lead to increased support.
All the posts here are valid
The labor effects are easy to debate
However there is a whole other element here
what about the people that move from mexico to the us and consume more in medical expenses than they earn in wages
for example there was a news story about a family that moved to the us illegally, had nine children, and this family uses more than a million dollars in medical care (paid by the government)
i mean, dee, under your plan,let me ask something
let's say a family was living in mexico and had a few very very sick kids and moved to the usa - the father works in the usa but the cost to the us of the medical car for his kids is five times his earnings. Would your path to legalization cover such a family
i mean just help us understand whether the us social safety net should extend to all of those that moved to the us without papers or just some of them
put it another way, if there are people who came to the usa without papers who cost the us millions in medical costs, should they be asked to go home or should they be legalized.
i can respect any answer you give due to humanitarian reasons but just be clear
Dianne,
I like your suggestion. I think it is a good compromise. I think most people would go for it.
Anon,
Diane´s suggestion is good.
The statistics say overall, illegal immigrants utilize far fewer services than legal citizens. So your scenario is the infrequent, not the norm.
Let´s go with Dianne´s suggestion as an addendum to CIR.
Dianne´s suggestion:
"illegal immigrants who have citizen sponsors apply for a green card. Now, the catch is, the sponsor must file an affidavit of support which is legally enforceable and is meant to keep the immigrant off public assistance."
mirror, no just because there are millions of illegal aliens employed in this country does not convince me that we need them or even need them if they become legal. They have mainly been employed because they work cheap and this has allowed business to expand. I am not in favor of a lot of economical expansion when you take into consideration the population growth that goes with needing millions of foreign workers to cover the expansion.
I have already explained over and over and so has Ultima what a huge increase in our population is doing and will do to our already stressed out hospitals, schools, housing demands, traffic conditions environment, natural resources and other social demands of huge population growth. Maybe that doesn't matter to you and dee but it does to those of us who don't have tunnel vision for this country's future. As the saying goes, money isn't everything.
I would also like to point out that there are an awful lot of illegal aliens begging on street corners for work via day labor sites. If we need them so badly then why is this happening? Why aren't they gainfully employed on a real job?
Dee,
i think ths suggestion is completely reasonable
however, let's look at a family who was living in mexico ten years ago, had three seriously ill children, and moved to the usa without papers
their three children were taken care of by the us medical system and overall three million dollars was spent in the past ten years on them
no one is willing to sponsor this family for a green card -
in your opinion Dee should this family be obligated to leave the us, or should they be legalized and allowed to stay, even though they came without papers and are likely to cost millions in medical expenses in the future
how do we handle tough cases like this
dee, there are plenty of statistics out there that say otherwise as far as illegal alien's costs vs any taxes they pay. You just refuse to believe them. One example I gave was Parkland Hospital in Dallas and the number of illegal aliens giving birth for free there. Those costs do come out of the taxpayer pocket. Their U.S. born children are entitled to all kinds of freebies till they are 18 years old. That also comes out of the taxpayer pocket. Bi-lingual education is another expense. The list goes on and on and you know it. I would still come out ahead if I had to pay 5 bucks for a head of lettuce with them gone.
"what about the people that move from mexico to the us and consume more in medical expenses than they earn in wages"
This is true, but we have to understand that millions of working and middle-class Americans fall under that umbrella. Hence the need for universal health-care.
"let's say a family was living in mexico and had a few very very sick kids and moved to the usa - the father works in the usa but the cost to the us of the medical car for his kids is five times his earnings. Would your path to legalization cover such a family"
I can't speak for Dee, but the way I understand it, that father would not have to bring his family to the U.S. if he can legally work and travel to and from Mexico.
Anon, I think you have to come out and state your stance; your questions can then be answered more clearly because we, or at least I, would know where you're coming from with these questions. As of right now they seem rhetorical and are never-ending.
For instance, with all these questions about medical expenses, do you ask if they should be covered as legal-immigrants or illegal? You mention a family that had 9 children - as Dee pointed out, an infrequent situation -, are you asking whether or not the U.S. should cover the delivery of those 9 children? In that case, we should pay for those kids' deliveries because they are Americans. In that viewpoint we are not paying for the medical expenses of illegal-immigrants but of their American children.
Patriot, I respect the population growth argument, but I don't think population growth due to immigration is that significant in the grand scheme of things taking into consideration the rapidly growing economies of even larger populated countries around the world. They will deplete or compete for the world's finite resources at a greater strength than a few million in population brought to U.S. through immigration.
Do you know how much the U.S.'s population growth will be affected if illegal-immigration was halted completely? I imagine it would still grow to fearful levels, but I every little bit counts, so lets kick out that 4% of the population.
Day laborers? They are employed, that is their job; their job title: Day Laborer; their employer: the good people of the city they work in.
mirror, do you want the population density of India or China? I don't. If we give 12 million (the number is actually much higher) illegal aliens legalization they will be able to bring their immediate families in and distant relatives too. These immigrants have high birthrates too. You are not looking at the actual astronomical numbers that we will be dealing with in the next 50 years. Besides they are mostly from one country/ethnic group. Do you think this is fair to the rest of the world that wants to migrate here?
Day laboorers don't have a job that is why they are begging on street corners. That isn't a job but a hope for a job every day. They don't even pay taxes so it isn't a real job. I surmise that they don't have a real job because there are way too many illegal aliens competing for jobs now.
I read articles about parents with sick kids in mexico that move to the usa in order to get treatment
i think they are just doing the normal parental thing -
i just wonder what dee's position is - if there are people whose kids were born in mexico who moved to us after they found out the kids were sick, should they be legalized or deported or what
Dee says:
Will wages temporarily increase in these locations? I have seen some locations (e.g. NJ, SC) raise wages to encourage workers to return, however, this did not work in the long run. Both locations wound up rescinding their laws.
Riverside rescinded its ordinance because it didn't want to fight a lawsuit and only after a judge ruled against a similar ordinance enacted in a Pennsylvania town.
New Jersey town scraps law on illegal immigration
"In Riverside, about 10 miles northeast of Philadelphia, an ordinance rescinding the law cited high legal costs and the defeat of the Hazleton law for its decision to repeal."
The actual facts, as to why Riverside rescinded its law, which had nothing to do with increasing of wages as Dee suggests.
Dianne's compromise is pretty much what current laws are and state. Note the surge in citizenship applications.
Newly naturalized often Democratic, but agency cites surge, denies plot
Statistics do not state overall, illegal immigrants utilize far fewer services than legal citizens. The hospitals, Dee, in your neck of the woods strongly disagree with you. There are numerous other occasions where 'Illegals' are getting welfare, housing sub-sidies, etc.
You seem to only read the headlines and take them as fact, the Strayhorn Report being the biggest. Delve deeper, do some research, you will find that 'Illegal Immigrants' use quite a bit of social services that they truly are not entitled to, or they abuse them, emergency room for a cold, that the tax payers are responsible to pay for.
Liquid,
You are spinning my words.
I said they rescinded the laws because their local ecomonies were impacted negatively (e.g. lost business, tax revenue, lawsuits, etc).
I did NOT say they rescinded the laws because they increased wages. I said they increased wages to try to resolve their labor shortages caused by the restrictionist laws.
Regarding Parkland hospital in the Dallas area, as I have stated many, many times, Parkland is our County hospital. It does not represent the tens of thousands of for profit hospitals in the DFW area. They are thriving and doing well. It is the one county hospital that takes in the non insured that you constantly reference.
Liquid,
I will give you a compliment.
I think you are an excellent spinner
Dee said...
Liquid,
You are spinning my words.
I said they rescinded the laws because their local economies were impacted negatively (e.g. lost business, tax revenue, lawsuits, etc).
They rescinded the laws due to not having the money to goto court to fight the ACLU and various other groups. Not spinning anything, you just need to be more clear in your statements.
And as I have stated to you many times dee is that those County Hospitals are taxpayer funded.
Dee:
I'm commenting on Dee's previous comments a while back about Oklahoma's labor shortage.
Oklahoma has had a labor shortage long
before the passing of the HB 1804 bill.
Many Oklahomans including I have experienced this first hand.
The oil and
natural gass industry has exploaded out
here. Creating higher paying jobs with
better benefits. Its any wonder why so many business's are posting help wanted
signs.
Oklahoma's economy has not taken any note worthy negative hit due to this bill, furthermore I doubt it ever will.
Dee, do you live in Oklahoma? I doubt you do.
Also, Texas is a lot different state than Oklahoma.
Dee, Please don't speak for us we don't
appreciate it. I highly discourage your
advocation of any shape or form due to
the uneven ground and self appointed foundation on which you make your statements.
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