Saturday, January 26, 2008

Oklahoma´s New Restrictive Immigration Laws Creating Massive Labor Shortages

Oklahoma Newspaper Tulsa World is reporting:
Builders' Hispanic workers leaving
By ROBERT EVATT World Staff Writer 1/24/2008
The crackdown on illegal immigrants creates a labor shortage, they say. Hispanic construction workers who are illegal immigrants have been leaving their jobs and the state since July because of fear rooted in House Bill 1804, says Dave Kollman, president of Flintco Cos. Inc., a major Tulsa contractor. Now, even legal Hispanics are vanishing due to the effects of the Oklahoma law that cracked down on illegal immigration, he said. "There's a scare component running through the Hispanic community," Kollman said. "Even if they're legal, they're leaving because they're family-oriented, and people they know are leaving." Kollman spoke during a discussion of H.B. 1804 at a Wednesday breakfast sponsored by the Tulsa chapter of the National Association of Industrial and Office Properties. Also sharing their experiences with the law, which took effect Nov. 1, were Jake Nabholz, vice president of Nabholz Cos.; and Ray Miller, president of Fleming Building Co. Miller said he's lost good men due to the law and hasn't been able to replace them. "I've had employees for 15 years who are good, hard workers," he said. "They're not taking anybody's jobs. The kids graduating from high school don't want to go into construction." Nabholz said fallout from the law continues to grow. "There's a lot of fear, and it'll get worse as the days come," he said. All three said the labor shortage requires builders to pay more overtime, which allows them to meet schedules but drives up costs. Nabholz said builders might not be able to rely on overtime if the loss of workers accelerates. "At some point, overtime won't be enough," he said. Kollman said Hispanics' fear of being conspicuous has generated other expenses. He cited, for example, how construction crews from Tulsa might drive to a place such as Stillwater to work on a project. "It used to be everyone would pile in one vehicle and drive there together, but now they're driving up on their own in separate cars," he said. Rising labor costs, combined with higher prices for construction materials, have driven up building costs significantly in this decade, Kollman said. The panelists said they would like to see some way to streamline the citizenship process for workers, which now takes up to five years.

The law, billed by its backers as the toughest U.S. legislation against illegal immigration, took effect Nov. 1. It bars illegal immigrants from obtaining jobs or state assistance and makes it a felony to harbor or transport illegal immigrants. "The sad part of it was the child didn't have to die if House Bill 1804 didn't ever come around," said Laurie Paul, who runs the clinic where Edgar was finally taken. "It was a total tragedy because the bill was there to create the myths and untruths and the fear." ...While it is difficult to characterize which U.S. state has the toughest immigration-related law, Oklahoma's goes beyond most because it includes the clause about harboring and transporting illegal immigrants, said Ann Morse, program director for the National Conference of State Legislatures' Immigrant Policy Project. "What I think these laws may have are unintended consequences on the general public," Morse said recently. "How does the law get implemented? Who is the target?"...The crackdown and its consequences: The crackdown has caused Hispanics to leave for neighboring states, with as many as 25,000 leaving northeastern Oklahoma alone, according to the Greater Tulsa Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. The law's fallout also can be seen in struggling businesses, worker shortages and widespread fear among immigrants who say they are afraid to drive to church or the market because police might pick them up..."I feel like I'm in some kind of Nazi country where if they see your color, you'll be stopped" ... Leaving Oklahoma all together: Even workers with proper paperwork are leaving for jobs in neighboring states rather than split up their families. "My guy who runs my framing crew, he had 70 workers, and as of Nov. 1, he lost 35 of them," said Caleb McCaleb, who runs a homebuilding company in Edmond. "My painter has lost 30 percent of his work force, my landscaper has lost 25 percent of his work force." Some in Terrill's own party doubt the wisdom of his legislation. "We've removed not only those here illegally and working, but those who are here legally," said state Sen. Harry Coates, a Republican who voted against 1804 and wants to repeal portions of the bill. "I'm not the smartest person in the world, but I understand economics." Vicente Ruiz, a 47-year-old legal immigrant who runs his own electrical contracting business, put it more bluntly: "It's all about making money, and if everybody moves away, the whole state is going to suffer."


Liquidmicro said...

As usual, only half the story is told. Those that are 'legal' or are 'citizens' are leaving as well, because they have 'illegal' family members living with them that are working under false documentation, they are breaking the law KNOWINGLY!!

"The panelists said they would like to see some way to streamline the citizenship process for workers, which now takes up to five years."
If they are in such need of workers, why do they need to have citizenship streamlined? Wouldn't they need more to have the H visa categories changed to include either more workers under the H-2B or recategorized under the H-2A. Housing booms don't last forever, with the declining market right now, they should be happy they have lesser employees, it will help them longer into the decline, rather than doing all of the work now and then all of a sudden the company closes due to no more work. Builders and contractors have been in a decline all across the nation, and will continue so for the next few years.

Liquidmicro said...

Whats bad is that when these construction employers close up shop they or their employees end up in my line of work. They don't last long managing landscapes, but for the short period of time they destroy peoples yards, it does keep me in business. ;-}

patriot said...

Legal Hispanics are leaving because of their illegal relatives? Where do they think they are going to go to protect their illegal relatives? Crackdowns are happening all over the country. Why aren't they just happy that they themselves are lucky to be Americans and show their gratitude and loyalty to this country by adhering to the rule of law?

The reason there were so many construction jobs in the past 20 years is because of all the new housing and businesses required to accomodate the additional population growth from illegal immigration. Once they leave, growth will slow down and so will the construction industry and then there won't be a shortage of construction workers. Never should we gauge this nation's success, growth or failure by not operating under the rule of law. Those businesses and towns crying now will just have to pay their dues until we adjust and get back to normal again and we will.

Dee said...

There are 2 aspects to Oklahomas restrictionist law that impacts LEGAL Hispanic citizens.
1. Racial Profiling
2. the clause about harboring and transporting illegal immigrants

Remember, Hispanic Americans are extremely family focused. Also remember, the Immigration laws are broken and it takes 5 - 20 years to legally migrate, also remember due to NAFTA, CAFTA, many farms in southern MX and central America feel they have no recourse but to leave and go north.

Therefore, if a legal citizen has a relative who comes here looking for a job, they will be JAILED if they are even in the car or in the same proximity. Legal citizens are afraid to leave their houses.

And in Tulsa, the police are proactively stopping cars searching for illegal immigrants. Hispanics in the area call it driving while Brown. I call it racial profiling.

This is why they are leaving Oklahoma. I don´t blame them for leaving.

dianne said...

Construction is down all over the country. The boom of the past few years is over. Can somebody give me any statistics that show that Oklahoma is any different? Why are they crying for construction workers when the rest of the country is not?

patriot said...

dee, knock off your BS about racial profiling. The majority of illegals in this country are Hispanics so it is only logical that Hispanics would be questioned. We have been all over this before and I told you that if a white male committed a crime, it would be white males that would be questioned. I don't call that racial profiling. If you are innocent that can be easily proven.

Yeah, we are all aware of the so-called family focus of Hispanics. This can be honorable and it can be dishonorable too if you are so family focused that you harbor criminals in your family.

Our immigration laws are not broken, they were just never enforced as they should have been. I don't care how long it takes to migrate here legally, those rules are in place for good reason and because you don't like it that doesn't give these illegals a right to jump our borders anyway.

Let the legal Hispanics leave Oklahoma then. It just shows where their loyalties lay and it isn't with this country or it's laws that they have sworn to uphold.

Liquidmicro said...

"Defending Oklahoma's act

Supporters — described by Dan Howard, the founder of an anti-illegal immigration Web site, as "good, American, God-fearing people of the heartland that bleed red, white and blue" — say the law is necessary because of Washington's bungled immigration policy. They also believe the law has helped deter crime and punishes the companies that make money on the backs of illegal labor."

This last sentence kind of says it all!! "punishes the companies that make money on the backs of illegal labor."

Anonymous said...

the oklahoma law is working as intended

construction firms are going in to the african american community and recruiting young african amerian men for jobs in framing and drywall

a massive labor shortage is good for people that are unemployed or under employed.

dee, show some empathy, show some care for the thousands of unemployed us citizens in oklahoma who couldn't get work in 2007.

This law is literally saving them from poverty

Thank god for this law

Liquidmicro said...

How about the following from the article:

"Edgar Castorena had diarrhea for 10 days and counting, and the illegal immigrant parents of the 2-month-old did not know what to do about it.

They were afraid they would be deported under a new Oklahoma law if they took him to a major hospital. By the time they took him to a clinic, it was too late.

A ruptured intestine that might have been treatable instead killed the U.S.-born infant, making him a poster child for opponents of a bill months before it was enacted as the Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007.

Terrill said there is no correlation between his bill and Edgar's death, noting that the child died in July, months before the law took effect, and that the law provides an exception for emergency medical care.

"To the extent that these illegal alien parents deprived their own child needed and necessary medical care because of their ignorance of the law, then they should be in prison, frankly," Terrill said.

'It's always the same thing'
Edgar's parents are believed to have gone underground following the boy's death, returning either to Mexico or going to stay with family in Arkansas, according to interviews with people in Tulsa's Latino community."

Great FAMILY VALUES???? Parents more concerned with their 'illegal work' vs. the well being and health of their own child. These parents should be rounded up and given the same medicine as what the child died from. Diarrhea for 10 days and counting and then passing, rid ourselves of the trash.

Liquidmicro said...

Here is what is happening in CA.

2 Arrested In Contractors Board Sting Several Others Cited

RANCHO CORDOVA, Calif. -- Two men were arrested after the Contractors State License Board conducted a sting to catch illegal operators on Wednesday.

Investigators said they received tips that Michael Villa was apparently financially abusing homeowners, and Elver Chili Martin was allegedly picking up day laborers and having them work 12 hours or more without pay.

Both Villa and Martin were booked at the Sacramento County Main Jail.

Villa posted bail, but Martin is on an identification hold and the U.S. Border Patrol has interest in the case, Pamela Mares from the Contractors State License Board said.

Several other people were cited for various violations.

The board said the people who were issued citations are due to appear in court in March.

Due to the storm of Jan 4, parts of CA have been deemed Fed Disaster Areas. Only 'Legal' Licensed Contractors can work and/or repair damages. I see and report up to 5 new companies a day in tree care and landscaping that are operating under false licenses and no documentation.

Dee said...

Please provide the url which references what you are saying? I haven´t seen any articles which say this.

"construction firms are going in to the african american community and recruiting young african amerian men for jobs in framing and drywall"

Dee said...

Construction is down in many places. The problem, based on articles, is worse since the enforcement of the OK law in November 2oo7.

Here are stats from a July 2007 articles suggesting with Boomers aging, we are facing a major labor shortage in construction. The 12M are partialling filling the gap. However, with these strict laws, they are leaving, therefore leaving these jobs unfilled. So go the jobs, so goes the economy.

U.S. Construction Industry Faces Skilled Labor Shortage

The impending exit of the baby boomers from construction jobs offers an obstacle for the industry to overcome

The construction industry in America is standing in the shadow of a historically unprecedented hurdle. The workforce is aging, and candidates are not being drawn into the industry quickly enough to compensate for the inevitable mass exodus of the baby boomers. In 2004, Bobby Rayburn, then president of the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB), identified “a shortage of skilled workers” as being “one of the most serious challenges” facing the homebuilding industry (source: Sacramento Business Journal). The housing downturn that has occurred since Mr. Rayburn spoke those words has not changed the situation; a lack of skilled workers is still a real and quickly approaching obstacle to be overcome by the industry. And that is just the residential sector. Commercial construction has been booming while residential construction has been swooning, and some firms are already feeling the pinch of an undersupply of skilled workers in certain disciplines.

Liquidmicro said...

Sacramento construction, residential and commercial are at standstills. Teichert, one of 2 major construction companies here has laid off more than 60% of their crews due to lack of work, builders have shut down entire developments due to the housing market going south downhill. The HAHB is only wanting cheap labor with no requirements.

Dee, you rail against the employers needing to be imprisoned, yet you constantly bring up the fact that employers want immigrant labor, talk about a conflict of interest. Employers and associations only care about PROFITS, cheaper employees means bigger PROFITS.

Liquidmicro said...

Construction Firms View Immigration As a Workforce Issue

Sundt, Barnhart shuffle through paperwork

"With baby boomers set to retire in a few years, the nation will not be able to rely on a skilled labor force and many industries will suffer, Pruitt says.

The number of skilled workers that come from Mexico to the U.S. is limited, Pruitt says.
“We don’t need cheap help, we need skilled labor,” Pruitt says.

Doug Barnhart, chairman for San Diego-based Barnhart Construction, agrees.

“I can get what we call ‘backs’ – you don’t need to go across the border for that,” he says. “These buildings are sophisticated now. You need someone to read construction plans.”

The construction industry finds it hard to come up with a figure on the number of illegal immigrants who may work in the construction industry. However, both Barnhart and Pruitt say their companies, and other general contractors who work on large, public projects that pay prevailing wages, usually have so much paperwork and legal requirements that they never hire illegal immigrants.

At Barnhart, for instance, the company’s human resources and legal departments are tied together to eliminate any problems with hiring staff. Sundt also employs similar measures when hiring, Pruitt says.

Some smaller subcontractors and general contractors who don’t work on larger projects may rely on illegal immigrants for work, say Barnhart and Pruitt, but there is no way of knowing the extent that the construction industry relies on illegal immigrants.

Some estimates are available. An April 2006 report from the Pew Hispanic Center estimates that more than 1.4 million unauthorized workers are employed by the construction industry – which represents about 12% of the workforce."

Seems SKILLED labor may be needed, that means people with an education!!! Most 'Illegal Immigrants' don't have an education much past 8th grade, so I guess that makes them ineligible!!

patriot said...

It puzzles me too liquid how dee keeps talking about employers who hire illegal aliens should be imprisoned (of which I agree) and yet she keeps worrying about them having a labor shortage. WTH?

Dee said...

Liquid, I am referencing articles that indicate the impact of the restrictionist laws in locations enforcing them. (e.g. OK, AZ)

I do agree with employer sanctions and establishing some type of legal status for the 12M here that qualify.

I also support secure borders.

I believe the solutions will come through CIR.

Liquidmicro said...

The 12M here 'Illegally' qualify for the H-2A visa, make the farmers pay the costs, two bangs for one buck, we all win.

ultima said...

People still struggle to decide what constitutes the proper devotion to America. The most disgraceful thing about the Hispanics is their silence about the presence of illegal aliens in the U.S. and their failure to support a systematic repatriation process designed to re-assert America's sovereignty and the rule of law, the very foundation of civilized societies. They are sadly in need of an epiphany. They need to think long and hard about where it will all end if we start to tinker with these basic concepts. Without vision the people perish. Without a devotion to citizenship and civic responsibility democracy will fail.

The voice of reason is not the siren litany of "Let's make them legal". The voice of reason is the one that says enforce the law, secure the borders, and expel those who use fraudulent social security numbers.

Anonymous said...

I urge everyone on this blog to read the following article from Cityjournal

Steven Malanga
The Rainbow Coalition Evaporates
Black anger grows as illegal immigrants transform urban neighborhoods.

Mexican gangs in Los Angeles, like Florencia 13, are waging a bloody campaign to drive blacks from neighborhoods.Terry Anderson is angry. From his KRLA-AM radio perch in Los Angeles, the black talk-show host thunders, “I have gone on the streets and talked to people at random here in the black community, and they all ask me the same question: ‘Why are our politicians and leaders letting this happen?’ ” What’s got Anderson—motto: “If You Ain’t Mad, You Ain’t Payin’ Attention”—so worked up isn’t the Jena Six or nooses on Columbia University doorknobs; it’s the illegal immigrants who allegedly murdered three Newark college students last August. And when he excoriates politicians for “letting this happen,” he’s directing his fire at Congressional Black Caucus members who support open borders and amnesty for illegal aliens. “Massive illegal immigration has been devastating to my community,” Anderson, a former auto mechanic and longtime South Central Los Angeles resident, tells listeners. “Black Americans are hit the hardest.”

The bottom line is that the hardworking african american men trying to get jobs in construction want the 20 million illegals deported and they want them deported now.

Dee treats these men like they are stupid - but they are not - they know that a labor shortage drives up wages for african american men.

Anonymous said...


let me ask you a simple direct question and please respond with a simple direct answer.

Dee you have stated that the law in oklahoma created a labor shortage

Dee, be blunt. in your mind does a labor shortage mean that wages today, Jan 08 for an african american man working construction in oklahoma are higher or lower than they would be in the absece of the law?

Dee said...


I think you have a good recommendation. Pat, what do you say?

"The 12M here 'Illegally' qualify for the H-2A visa, make the farmers pay the costs, two bangs for one buck, we all win."

Dee said...

Anon, Your article references an AM Radio Shock Jock who is pandering to his audience. For years, the ANTI side has been trying to start a race war between African Americans and Hispanics.

Guess What. It is not happening.
We fought on the same side for Civil Rights in the 60´s. We have formed allegiances and alliances for decades. WE believe in a multi cultural society in our great USA.

It is NOT illegal immigrants that are holding down wages or jobs for African Americans. We all know this.

Do you deny there continues to be racism in America? Do you deny racial profiling? I suggest you study the history of both civil rights and of Immigration, starting with the Immigration Act of 1924. Once you do, we can talk.

Feel free to email me anytime:

Dee said...

Anon, also, let me correct your statement.

Anon´s statement:"Dee you have stated that the law in oklahoma created a labor shortage"

My correction: "News articles with links I provided report the law in oklahoma created a labor shortage"

Anonymous said...

"We fought on the same side for civil rights in the 60's"

I really don't remember seeing a huge Mexican movement in the 60's.
Please provide the link that shows Mexicans fought for civil rights in
the 60's.

Dee said...

I was the cute girl in the brown coat in the middle of the pix.

We were very multi cultural and proud to march for Civil Rights in our Great USA!

I grew up in Michigan, remember! Read my blog and my book. (link on left side of my blog)

Dee said...

more examples:

dream lives on
American Heroes

Dee said...

As I look back on your comment, here is what you are MISSING.

I refer to Hispanic Americans and YOU continue to call us MEXICANS. We are Mexican American Citizens. The census tells us we currently have about 50M citizens in the US.

My father, his and his were all born in our US. We are proud citizens. We serve in the military, in numerous wars, supporting our country.

People like you try to pit Hispanics against African Americans but we don´t fall for your ploy. We fought together for Civil Rights. We stood side by side. That is something many people like you will never understand.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, these are all pictures that represent nothing. The only pic is that of Chavez w/Mrs. King, which I am guessing is at Dr. Kings funeral. The other pics show absolutely nothing at all. Show documentation. Chavez was marching for workers rights after the time that Dr. King was marching for Civil Rights. If you want credit, show pics of civil rights marches with documentation of what they are about, otherwise your doing nothing more then blowing smoke.

Anonymous said...

You are sorely mistaken. Whites marched along blacks for civil rights. Did you not know that? Chavez fought against illegal immigration. Did you not know that?
You are nothing like Chavez. I do not pit blacks against hispanics. Did your Dad march for civil rights? What branch of the military did your father serve in? I clearly remember you said he served. Age wise, he would have had to have served in World War II just like my own father. What branch Dee? I take what you say with a grain of salt. You have been caught in so many lies.

Dee said...

Lol Anon. You are pitiful with your denial of the facts. I was there. Did you access the links to my book? I talk about my participation.

For your information, the Civil Rights marches were multi cultural. Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, we were all there. I remember marches we conducted starting at my local Catholic church. Look at the pictures. Multi Cultural. Side by side.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

You too Liquid!

And please try to remember we are American Citizens - 50 M Hispanic American CITIZENS!

Dee said...

Anon, You are so funny. You pretend to be new to my site yet you talk like a Tweety Bird I know. LOL. Your comments betray you!! LOL

Liquidmicro said...

Immigrants, employers brace for plan's effects

HF2026 Iowa

"House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, sponsor of the legislation, argues his idea is aimed at preserving workers' rights.

"This illegal immigration crackdown on employers is really a human rights issue," said McCarthy, a Des Moines Democrat whose wife, Maricela, is the daughter of Mexican immigrants who became U.S. citizens. "It's these employers who are abusing people. It's a tragedy all the way around."

Employers who intentionally hire undocumented workers often classify them as seasonal or temporary employees to avoid paying retirement benefits, disability insurance and the like, he said.

Those classifications can cut employers' payroll costs by as much as 30 percent, according to the New York-based National Employment Law Project.

"That's slave labor," McCarthy said. "They're not paying into workers' compensation, they're not going to be helped if they get hurt on the job. It's really allowing the abuse of some people."

Federal officials have vowed for years to better enforce federal laws that prohibit such abuses, but so far those reforms have largely failed, McCarthy said. The proposed Iowa law is one step the state can take to protect against the abuse of undocumented workers, he said."

I tend to agree with McCarthy. And for the above paragraph about 'Slave Labor":
Avoiding costs

Some of the costs employers often sidestep by classifying employees as seasonal or independent workers:
• Federal payroll taxes
• Unemployment insurance
• State and city taxes
• Workers' compensation
• Health insurance
• Vacation and sick leave
Source: National Employment Law Project

Dee said...

Here is a timeline of the partnerships. See the signs.. then you understand why we partnered together:

Merged Timeline

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, you are sadly mistaken about the 50M Hispanic Citizens.... Lest you forget there are according to the PEW Hispanic Center 47M Hispanics in the country. You need to deduct the the total Hispanic 'illegal' population, as they are also included in the census. Thus, there are approximately 36M Hispanic 'legal' Citizens in the USA. Don't inflate your numbers by including 'illegals' as well. Try going back to debating 'HONESTLY' instead of interjecting more rhetoric. And since you own the blog, the articles you post are thought to be your opinion as well, since you give NO opinion on the article that you post.

Dee said...

I found this just for you! LOL

Dee said...

Sorry to burst your bubble too Liquid, but I doubt many illegal immigrants participate in the Census.
Some do, but not all and you know this.
Additionally you forget people like my children who have a Hispanic mother and Anglo father. Add another 50M to the equation.

Dee said...

Liquid, You get a day off and you get feisty! LOL
What I do on my blog is search the web for new, unbiased immigration articles from reputable sites and post them so we can discuss them civilly.

Liquidmicro said...

But what you fail to do is give your opinion!! of the article.

Dee said...

You know Liquid, when I read the comments from the Oklahoma or Arizona newspapers, it is all from Hispanic citizens who do not appreciate the racial profiling. Some commenters mentioned they never voted for the law. It was not put up for a citizen vote in OK. Many are demonstrating against it because it instills fear in so many.

I believe these articles by these unbias newspapers that say there are massive labor shortages due to the fear and anger imposed by this law.

Liquidmicro said...

All of the comments I have read are 10 - 1 in favor of the OK law. Same in AZ. I found only 1 article about protests/marches against the OK law, and that was on Nov 1, 2007. I saw NO articles in protest to the AZ law.

Liquidmicro said...

I think your own article of which is the topic of this post answers your observations. Hispanics see these laws as racial profiling because they have family members that are here working 'Illegally' and contributing to the 'family'. Kollman said. "Even if they're legal, they're leaving because they're family-oriented, and people they know are leaving."

These so called 'Patriotic Americans' are KNOWINGLY violating the laws of this country for their own 'family'.

Dee said...

Liquid, I agree with you somewhat. The reason the citizens are leaving is out of fear. They are afraid of racial profiling and they are afraid of strict restrictions making it a felony to harbor or transport illegal immigrants. What this means is, if you are driving a car and someone in the car may have lapsed papers, you could go to prison. That´s where much of the fear comes from.

Dee said...

I read in one article where workers are afraid to carpool. On the onehand, they don´t want to do ICEs job and ask for their peer´s work papers. On the other hand, if someone has lapsed papers, you go to jail too.

Liquidmicro said...

Because their family members are here 'illegally' they don't want to be caught with them. Or, the fact that some may be here legally, however their spouse is illegal.

Yet these people do absolutely nothing to right their wrongs, why are they not at the INS office filling out paperwork for their spouses? If family members have been given deportation orders to leave, and have not left, and family members are harboring them, then they should be jailed.

Dee said...

This means in OK, you would never give me a ride. Even though I am a citizen, because I am Hispanic, you don´t want to take the chance because you know you could go to jail if for some reason I wasn´t.

patriot said...

When you lump all anti's together dee, you are doing a diservice to those of us that are merely for the rule of law and we are the majority of anti's. Making a blanket statement that anti's have been trying to start a race war between Blacks and Hispanics is a hateful and untruthful thing to do. Would you like me to accuse you a pro and all pro's of being of the reconquista mindset? Debate with honesty dee and stop the blanket and false accusations of us anti's. Stop arguing from the point of radical fringe groups.

patriot said...

As I have repeated over and over, dee. If one has legal papers to be here they have nothing to fear. Don't give anyone a ride in your car that can't prove to you that they are in this country legally. Don't harbor relatives or friends in your home that cannot prove that they are in this country legally. It is really very simple. Follow the letter of the law with your friends and relatives and for yourself. Stop making excuses.

Stop harping about racial profiling. It is mostly Hispanics who are in this country illegally therefore it only makes sense that they would be questioned more often just like if law enforcement were looking for a white male who has committed a crime, they would be questioning white males. Stop whining and show your loyalty to your country and it's laws rather than your ethnocentric interests.

Dee said...

Dont you always lump all PROs together?

Dee said...

No one should ever give anyone a ride Pat? Ever? without giving them the 3rd degree and asking for a passport?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, if you are giving someone a ride, more often than not you know the person. People stopped picking up hitchhikers years ago.

Anonymous said...


your own headline is entitled

Oklahoma´s New Restrictive Immigration Laws Creating Massive Labor Shortages

Dee, what is the impact of this massive labor shortage on wages?

Be direct - will a labor shortage cause wages to go up or down


patriot said...

No dee, I do not lump all pro's together. There are the radical reconquistas who are in the minority of the pro's, there are the greedy corportations who want the cheap labor and there are the ethnocentric Hispanics like you.

patriot said...

Oh, I forgot to mention another groups of pro's. They are the bleeding heart liberals who have tunnel vision for the future of our country and are multi-cultural fanatics who think it racist for a country to want to retain it's natural identity and culture and see nothing wrong with it changing thru an unnatural means such as illegal immigration. Some pro's fit into more than one of the catagories I mentioned.

Anonymous said...

I think most of the pros are good hearted well meaning folks who just haven't thought things through carefully.

Once the work of dr borjas gets reported by the mainstream media, most pros will come over to the anti side.

most us citizens benefit from the deportations. Most us citizens in oklahoma and arizona are already benefitting from the exodus from those states.

the truth will get out. when the nation sees formerly overcrowded hospitals that can now offer good medical care, and sees schools that are now providing a good education and sees wages going up, deportation of the 20 million will become very popular

all it will take is for the mainstream media to report the truth -

and it is starting to happen

patriot said...

anon, just curious as to why you think that most pro's are "good hearted". Did you read my descriptions of the various pro catagories? I don't see good hearted in them anywhere. They are ruled by greed, racism, disloyalty to their country and ignorance that doesn't take into account the long term affects of illegal immigration nor the negatives that we are experiencing now.

Dee said...

Pat, Your description of PROs prove you do not understand the PRO perspective at all. Your views of PROs are very shallow and narrow minded. Shame on you!

Dee said...

Actually PROs are very informed of both the History of Immigration and the current issues we are facing today. We are for secure borders and employer sanctions.

We are the most Loyal to America because we support our country, we serve in the military, and we understand that we are evolving to a multi cultural society.

We also understand that it is the History of Immigration of our own country that has brought us to the point we are today and we seek to compromise on how to solve the issue of 12M here by bringing them out of the shadows and into a path to legalization.

Most ANTIs, on the other hand, support a very restrictionist view. Most advocate the deportation of 12M people and many ANTIs support the deportation of their citizen children as well. Most ANTIs support a southern border Wall. Most ANTIs support restrictionist laws (as in NJ, Oklahoma and Arizona). NJ has already realized the impact of these laws on labor and on the economy and has rescinded their laws. Oklahoma is seeing the same effect now. Many in their own state legislature are calling for rescinding that law today. Follow the news. It is all there.

Also, the MSM is becoming aware of the majority views of the American people. Yes we want secure borders and employer sanctions. Most DO NOT want deportation of the 12M. This will all be resolved after the election.

It is the extremist ANTIs that are actually in the minority with their views on mass deportation and the restrictionist laws which create labor shortages.

patriot said...

No shame on you dee for not admitting the truth. I hit the nail right on the head of the various catagories of pro's. Ethnocentric-racism, greed and liberal stupidity.

patriot said...

dee, who the hell do you think you are claiming that "you" and your pro counterparts are more loyal Americans than the rest of us? How dare you! There have been just as many anti's as pro's that have served in the military. I am one of them!

Our society still has an identifying culture and language. It doesn't matter that there are minority cultures in this country too. Is Mexico multi-culutural just because there are some Anglos or other races in living in it? No, they are not! They are Hispanic culturally and that is what identifies them as a country.

I see you are on your usual rant of BS about us anti's. Most anti's want workplace enforcement so that the illegals will self-deport, not a roundup by ICE and forced deportation. Most anti's recogonize that the children born from illegal aliens are citizens too. We cannot deport citizens. All we ask is that the interpretation of the 14th Amendment be changed so that no future children born from illegal aliens gain citizenship.

Retrictionist laws? Is that what you call making the employers hire only legal workers? You think that illegals should work in this country and in many cases use fake documents to do so? And you say you and yours are more loyal than the anti's? What kind of bizarre thinking is that?

Even if there were to be a labor shortage if the illegals leave. You think this country should operate under illegallity all for the sake of an overblown economy? Where are your morals and scruples woman?

Anonymous said...


Any google search will find many examples of SMALL businesses firing their black workers and hiring recent immigrants from mexico to replace them

This is not a big business issue.

Dee, you treat black folks like they are stupid. We know how to read.

We can read Dr. Borjas just as well as you can.

Don't patronize us it won't work

Dee said...

Sorry the TRUTH hurts you so much!

Dee said...

You lost your argument. It is clear. African Americans and Hispanic Americans have NO ARGUMENT with each other. I know you and yours would LOVE a race war between us. But guess what. WE ARE FRIENDS. WE INTERMARRY. WE ARE MULI CULTURAL.

Your wish for a Race War will NEVER HAPPEN!

So Sad for YOU!

Anonymous said...


you lost the argument

African americans demanded a change to the law and got it in Oklahoma

consider that a defeat for you

then african americans demanded a change in phoenix (after seeing dr george borjas's research) and they got it

consider that another defeat for you

Dee, the wave is moving to other states

all i see is defeat after defeat for you

patriot said...

dee, I don't know what truth you are speaking about. You yourself have been known to ignore the truth.

patriot said...

How disgusting dee, that you continually accuse your bloggers of wanting a race war between Blacks and Hispanics. Have you no shame? Where is your proof of that?

There have been many skirmishes between Black and Hispanic youth on school grounds and in the suburbs and cities. I don't know if they are just gang related or what but I assure you most anti's don't want any race wars. You are just trying to demonize the anti's again. We are on to you, dee. If I were you I would show a little more respect for your bloggers if you want them to continue to post here.

Dee said...

Pat, Many ANTI bloggers are trying to push the race issue and create animosity across races.

I don´t see it happening.

As you mention there may be an occassional gang or inner city issue, but there will NOT be a race war.

patriot said...

dee, as I have told you before you spend way too much time visiting anti blogs all day. It is making you think that all anti's are radicals. Why don't you listen to me? I have visited some of these blogs myself both anti and pro. Some are radicals, some are not. You always choose to pick out the radical statements in the anti groups and use them as a blanket view of all anti's. Why can't you see what you are doing to yourself? You are obsessed with this!

Dee said...

HB 1804 search
Horror story: Another tale of licensing woe

The crackdown on illegal immigrants creates a labor shortage

HB 1804 blamed for exodus of Hispanics, baby's death

House Bill 1804 has struck again, and again, and again.

Dee said...

Refuting bogus arguments is part of what I do on my blog.

Glad you recognize this!

Dee said...

Employers wary of policing immigration

Dee said...

This is an IOWA article regarding impacts of restrictive laws. As more and more states pass these laws, we are seeing the impacts on the local economies. I am not judging, merely observing the impacts.

Immigrants, employers brace for plan's effects

Some of the regular customers at Ignacio Ramirez's Mexican grocery store have already left Iowa, while others told him this month that they are preparing to move to another state.

The exodus, to which he attributes a 20 percent to 30 percent drop in sales, is out of fear brought about by a legislative proposal that some in Iowa's Hispanic communities say would make it virtually impossible for undocumented workers to find employment.

patriot said...

The only bogus arguments on this blog are yours, dee.

patriot said...

A Mexican grocery store? I am sure most of their clientel are Hispanics and most likely some if not many are illegal aliens. Who cares? I certainly am not going to worry about how illegal aliens affect an ethnic business.

If we don't pass laws to stop employers from hiring illegal aliens dee, how are we going to sanction them? I feel like I am running in circles with you....sanction the employers but don't pass laws where we can catch them to do so. WTH?

Anonymous said...

Dee is it fair to say that the US benefits more if 1000 brain surgeons move from mexico to the us

compared to 1000 construction workers

i mean on average the brain surgeons will pay a hundred thousand a year in taxes to the us treasury and the construction workers will pay much less

in addition, statistics show that the children of the brain surgeon will wind up with higher incomes and pay more taxes as well

let's say that a thousand new brain surgeons pay high taxes and we can use those taxes to improve our schools and hospitals . let's say that a thousand new construction workers pay much less in taxes

is it fair to say that it is best for america to let the thousand brain surgeons from mexico in and not let in the thousand construction workers?

don't we have more money to build a good social infrastructure if we let folks from mexico that pay high taxes in rather than those that pay low taxes

how about some comments on this theory from all points on the political spectrum - id like comments from people that believe in government spending a lot of money to help americans that need help

id also like to hear from people that believe in small government

lets hear from everyone on whether the us is better off letting in high earning highly educated mexicans or not

Anonymous said...

Yo Dee

please ignore the fact that the brain surgeons from mexico might vote republican


Dee said...

No more dubyas!!

Anonymous said...

Ha ha

ok let's assume that republicans will want the brain surgeons and not the construction workers.

if you are a progressive you want people who move here and will vote progressive. We are with you on that

ok but put that aside - let's say that we have a choice between people who are sure to vote progressive , care about social justice and the environment etc. the people are identical in how they vote

ok so you have a choice between someone who will pay tons of money in taxes and someone who works hard, is a good honest person but who just isn't able to make enough money to pay anthing much in taxes

what is the right thing to do - accept the person that will pay high taxes or the person that will pay low taxes

you see what i am getting at - if we want great hospitals and schools - all that is expensive and i say we should import people who will pay very high taxes, whose kids are likely to pay high taxes

mirrorism said...

That's a little simplistic and idealistic, no? Plus, that's already happening, the best and brightest of foreign countries are allowed to come and work in the United States legally. They are part of the growing number of professionals that American companies are actively recruiting from Mexico and other Latin-American and Asian countries.

It's sort of like this; Mexican professionals who want to emigrate to the U.S. search the web -, for example - for companies that will sponsor them; however, the typical Mexican illegal-immigrant looks for family members to sponsor them and pay for the coyote. Of course the former are more desirable, but that doesn't mean that the latter are uneccesary, just means that they're harder to swallow.

Liquidmicro said...

The end to my original argument, the first post of this topic follows:

Yahoo to Lay Off 1,000 Workers

But none of this would have to do with a looming recession though, either, right?? Large corporations are laying people off left and right. It's not so much a worker shortage but an abundance of workers. People/business/Government have all ben living on credit, using credit to grow the economy, sure it has helped people send remittances back to home countries, but the ride is over. Time has ran out and credit is now owed, payback time, and most don't have the funds to it back, thus you get massive layoffs and a rise in unemployment, otherwise known as a recession.

The 'illegals' are caught up in this as well, citizens are calling for them to be removed (laid off) first so as to prolong their employment before the inevitable hits them (citizens) known as, unemployment (out of work, no more job).

Citizens feel those that have no right to be here or work here should be the first to go from a job, to be removed from the country due to the social debts they incur.

Dee said...

I agree with you about the economy, but there are other issues to think about. Example: Detroit - Massive layoffs in the Auto Industry, wages are cut in half, yet, at the same time, they have massive labor shortages in Michigan for AgJobs - so much so they institute a "Venga a Michigan" program to bring in Ag-workers from Texas and Mexico.

Dee said...

I´m going to do a new blog today to discuss Michigan, their economy and both Agjobs and Auto jobs.

patriot said...

Detroit had massive layoffs in the auto industry 30 years ago.

Auto workers are not going to do Ag jobs because they don't pay a liveable wage, is back breaking work and too far for those to communte who live in the Detroit Metro area.

Never use the Ag industry as an argument for massive illegal immigration. Ag workers only make up 2% of the workforce and even the illegals don't want to do that kind of work anymore.

Liquidmicro said...

Why doesn't Michigan, if needing AG workers, bring them in on the H-2A visa as mandated by law?? There is NO LIMIT on the H-2A Visa. If Citizens don't want to do the AG work, so what. Farmers can get legal workers through the Visa, all that they need. Citizens have the right to choice if they choose to work/change jobs either knowingly or by being laid-off.

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