Monday, July 21, 2008

Do Not Blame the Crimes of the One on the Many!

All felonious criminals should be prosecuted. Any felonious criminals who are illegal immigrants should be deported after their punishment is served. That said, we all must be clear, the ethnicity, age, race, status of the criminal does not indict all people within that group. To do so would be like saying since John Gacy and BTK were middle aged white males, therefore all middle aged white males are guilty of their crimes. Of course this is ludicrous, as it is ludicrous to indict all minorities or all illegal immigrants for the crimes of the few.
Over the last few weeks two horrendous crimes occurred, one in Pennsylvania (the Hate Crime I reported) and one in San Francisco (on June 22). Fox News and many of the ANTI websites are reporting on the San Francisco crime.
Edwin Ramos, now 21, is being held on three counts of murder in the June 22 deaths of Tony Bologna, 48, and his sons Michael, 20, and Matthew, 16. They were shot near their home in the Excelsior district when Tony Bologna, driving home from a family picnic, briefly blocked the gunman's car from completing a left turn down a narrow street, police say.
Though an investigation was still ongoing, police have stated the shooting occurred after a traffic altercation involving Bologna's car and as many as three people in another car.
The victims´ wife and mother was understandably upset. My sympathies go out to her and to the remaining members of her family. I cannot imagine her devastation right now and her drive to see that justice prevails.
When she appeared on Fox News this morning, she demanded justice and is upset that San Francisco does not pursue the Death Penalty. I agree to the extent that if Ramos is found guilty of the crime he should be punished, serve his time, then deported.
The Fox News commentator and the ANTI sites however are focused on San Francisco being a "sanctuary city." Fox and the ANTIs are saying Ramos is in illegal status. They are using this as an excuse to indict ALL illegal immigrants for these crimes and to indict San Francisco for being a Sanctuary City. They are wrong on several counts. First, they should not indict All for the crimes of the One. Second, Ramos is currently in "Pending" status. Third, the San Franciscos sanctuary policies have recently changed:
Ramos came to the United States at age 13 from El Salvador, where he had been raised by his grandmother.
Authorities familiar with his background said Ramos wanted to be near his mother, who had abandoned him when he was 4 months old; she was living with two of her other children in San Francisco...

(Recently) Ramos had married a woman who is a U.S. citizen and applied again to immigration officials to stay in the United States, this time as a permanent resident. That request was pending at the time Tony Bologna and his sons were shot to death.
Apparently Ramos was not "wanted" by his mother, joined a gang and committed several crimes as a juvenile. Prior to his "pending" status, he was convicted and served time in a juvenile facility. Since he was in a "sanctuary city", the authorities did not notify ICE and deport him.
My view is, all felonious criminals should be punished, serve their time and, if an illegal immigrant, should be deported. Mayor Gavin Newsom rescinded the old sanctuary policy regarding notifying ICE of illegal immigrant status for those committing felonious crime earlier this month. I am in agreement with the Mayor´s actions.
As for Ramos, if he is found guilty, he should be punished, serve his time and be deported since obviously, if guilty, he will no longer be in Pending status and instead be denied permanent residency.
But let me make one thing clear. If Ramos is guilty, he alone is responsible and accountable for his crimes. The Scales of Justice in our Country do not allow indicting an Entire Group for the crimes of the One.
UPDATE: The Sheriff and ICE are in dispute regarding the March arrest and release. The San Francisco Sheriff’s Department is going toe-to-toe with federal immigration officials over the release of a suspected gang member who is accused of killing a San Francisco father and his two sons last month in a road rage incident. As the suspect appeared in court Monday, the question that lingered was how he fell through the cracks. Immigration officials say Edwin Ramos was mistakenly released by San Francisco Sheriff’s Department, last spring and quite possibly could have been in custody instead of on the streets during last month’s triple homicide. Immigration, Customs and Enforcement officials in Los Angeles say they have an electronic log between their office and the sheriff’s office in San Francisco that shows deputies released Ramos from custody before they were contacted. But San Francisco Sheriff Mike Hennesy disputes ICE’s claims and says the federal agency is trying to deflect blame. “They’re saying this because they’re feeling some heat,” says Hennessey. “For example, in the past 18 months I’ve turned over 1100 people to ICE, so it’s not like we have a system that doesn’t work.” Ramos was arrested last march on weapons charges. Those charges were later dropped.
ICE officials say their log shows Ramos was released at 1:49 a.m. on April 2nd. Almost two hours later, San Francisco Sheriff’s officials sent an electronic query to Los Angeles ICE officials concerning Ramos’s immigration status. At 5:12 a.m., ICE responded Ramos was in deportation proceedings. Later that morning, ICE says it placed a “detainer hold” on Ramos, but by then he was already back on the streets. Sheriff Hennessey doesn’t buy ICE’s version of events.

92 comments:

The Arizonian said...

"Ramos, a native of El Salvador whom prosecutors say is a member of a violent street gang, was found guilty of two felonies as a juvenile - a gang-related assault on a Muni passenger and the attempted robbery of a pregnant woman - according to authorities familiar with his background. "

Wait, I retract my previous post.

The kid is a murderer(allegedly) and should be executed(if not so allegedly).

Dee said...

Arizonian,
I agree that Ramos, if guilty, should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
All the allegations are just that, but if guilty he should be punished.

ultima said...

We tend to paper over events like this by writing about "felonious" crimes or criminals rather than just "criminals". All convicted criminals should be punished to the full extent of the law. If the law provides for the deportation illegal aliens, that is the full extent of the law.

There are few who will blame the crimes of one on the many. They are wrong! But they may have a point when they suggest that if none of the illegals were here, the number of crimes committed would be fewer, even if anglos and other citizens have a higher crime rate than illegals.

One might well ask why we should allow the mother of this child to to remain here and why she is not being prosecuted to the full extent of the law for abandoning her child to the street gangs -- isn't this one of the worst forms of child abuse? Isn't she also culpable? If we do not find the child's poor upbringing to be exculpatory, why should we not also find the mother guilty and begin deportation proceedings on the basis that she failed to disclose on her application for citizenship that she had abandoned her own child?

Liquidmicro said...

I find it ironic that his mother abandoned him as a child in Mexico, yet "Illegal Immigrants" clammer if they are deported from here and they leave their children behind. Maybe its part of their culture?

Anonymous said...

Illegals are not immigrants. They're lawbreakers. It's not hate. It's the law, and these lawbreakers do not belong in the US, period.

Liquidmicro said...

"Authorities familiar with his background said Ramos wanted to be near his mother, who had abandoned him when he was 4 months old; she was living with two of her other children in San Francisco."

" Federal authorities, however, also missed an opportunity to take Ramos into custody just this past March - after they had learned of his immigration status and started deportation proceedings, and after Ramos was arrested in San Francisco on a gun charge. For reasons the federal agents cannot explain, they did not put an immigration hold on Ramos."


Even if this idiot would have been deported, who's to say he would not have come back? People such as this need to be incarcerated on some ill forgotten island like Papillon was with no easy route for escape with less chance for survival.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I do not understand your “part of their culture” response.
I believe this is an isolated incident.

I have read in US newspapers, recently, some mothers put their babies in microwave ovens. Others put them in garbage bags on Prom Nights. Still others put them in dryers at the Laundromat. Am I to believe these are ALL parts of the American Culture? I choose to think not. I believe they are all isolated incidents.

Liquidmicro said...

I'm only talking about the abandonment of their children. Those that get deported from here leave their children behind instead of taking them with them. Your equaling it to putting babies in microwaves is way out there. Just like this mother did with her 4 month old son. Why did she have him if she couldn't or didn't want the responsibility of him? Why leave him with someone else to manage?

Liquidmicro said...

Where's the blame for the mother? Where is the blame for the father? Did the mother know the father? Does the boy know his father? This woman should also be held accountable for child neglect.

patriot said...

Isn't it ironic though that those of us who are for enforcing our immigration laws get accused of "separating families" yet the illegals do it themselves by abandoning their children. What a joke!

patriot said...

Speaking of "do not blame the crimes of one on the many"...

Well! Someone might want to pass that along to some of the Chicano racists who are still blaming CURRENT-day whites for historical events which occurred CENTURIES ago! We are expected to shoulder collective guilt, and then be lectured by them on how we shouldn't extend collective guilt to THEIR group. Oh, the irony!

Dee said...

Liquid,
I agree with you. ALL parents should be accountable for their young children. This mother was wrong to abandon her child.
I do believe this is an individual incident. As were ALL the individual incidents where the US parents put their babies in Microwave ovens, dryers or in hot cars in 100 degree weather. I think this is shameful behavior. HOWEVER, I DO NOT indict ALL of America for the Crimes of a Few. And Neither should we indicat ALL of the illegal immigrants for the crimes of the FEW.

Liquidmicro said...

"And Neither should we indicat ALL of the illegal immigrants for the crimes of the FEW."


Thats just it, they're not being indicted by the crimes of the few, they are being indicted by their own crimes. Read the following:

Pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1304(e), aliens are issued registration cards and must carry such cards with them at all times. Aliens who gain entry without the requisite inspection, and who therefore are not issued such cards, violate 8 U.S.C. § 1325. Consequently, a law enforcement officer confronting an alien who is unable to produce documentation arguably has probable cause to believe that a violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1304(e) (failure to possess documents or 8 U.S.C. § 1325(a) (entry without inspection) has occurred. (If the alien is undocumented and has been in the United States for longer than 30 days, he or she has also violated 8 U.S.C. § 1306(a)).

Even those that overstay there visa now fall under the above.



Dee said...

Liquid,
I agree with you. ALL parents should be accountable for their young children. This mother was wrong to abandon her child.
I do believe this is an individual incident.

What of the mothers who have left there children here during their deportations, signing the children over to others? How many more children are there left behind in C. and S. America? Its a little more than an individual incident.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I said Felonious Criminals.
I am not talking about the Civil Violations.
Arpaio and his ilk should be focused on the Felonious criminals, the Drug Smugglers, the Gangs, those that inflice Personal Bodily Harm. NONE of these crimes should be protected by Sanctuary Cities. These crimes require immediate prosecution and when time is served, immediate deportation.

Liquidmicro said...

"Arpaio and his ilk should be focused on the Felonious criminals"

Isn't that what he has been doing?

A recent crime-suppression operation in Guadalupe cost more than $18,000 for more than 80 sheriff's staff members to work. The high-profile crime sweep resulted in 47 arrests and cleared 18 warrants.

I think everything can be found in the above topic.

dianne said...

First of all I want to acknowledge Dee for putting this story up for comment. It goes to the heart of several issues. She does have a point that one cannot condemn all illegal immigrants because of a few.

However, let's go back to last year when CIR was being debated in the Senate. I watched almost all of the proceedings on C-span and I specifically remember the Senate bill had a provision for allowing a path to citizenship for gang members who would sign a paper to "renounce" their association with gangs. I almost went through the tv set. So, let's be clear here. The pro's don't want to limit citizenship to just the "good guys". If the bill would have succeeded, Ramos and all those like him would have been on a path to citizenship by simply signing a piece of paper!

As for Sanctuary Cities and that hell hole known as San Franciso, I agree with those calling for stripping them of all federal funds because of their flagrant abuse of federal law.

Dee said...

Many people love San Francisco. You just disagree with their liberal politics.

Dee said...

Diane,
When I saw the mom on TV yesterday,my heart went out to her. Then I saw the Fox News commentator try to make this into an ANTI issue. The mom was concerned about the Death Penalty not being applied, but the newscaster twisted it to her own agenda. Then I saw Alipac hopping on the bandwagon. They are going crazy over there because they have been looking for a cause to jump on to that could get National attention. That is when I decided to post the story here. It makes me angry the ANTIs are exploiting this grieving mom to forward their own agendas. Fox and O Reilly hate San Francisco so you know they are on board. Very Shameful!

PS: Been spending some time on the comment boards about this issue. Liquid and Pat would probably love ALL the bashing I am getting.

Dee said...

Liquid,
One thing that always gets on my last nerve during these discussions is your side always goes to ethnic assumptions. That is ridiculous.
In reality, there is less child abadonment or abuse in the Latino culture than most others.
The culture promotes God, Family and Work Ethic.

dianne said...

Dee, the Fox News Reporter was REPORTING what was already published in the San Francisco newspaper and that article focused on the illegal immigrant aspect of the case and San Francisco's sanctuary policy.

I can't even imagine being told my family had just been executed for no reason. If and when Ramos is found guilty, I certainly hope he does get the death penalty. Then there'll be no need to deport him. We'll just have to house and feed him and pay for his legal fees for the next 20 years till the execution is finally carried out.

And, you're right. I do hate San Francisco.

Dee said...

Dianne,
I agree. If he is guilty, he should be imprisoned and if the Death Penalty applied, then so be it. If not, and he ever does get out then Deportation.

From an Immigration perspective, my belief is the ICE-Police should focus on felonious criminals and gangs, not the workplace sweeps. If they targetted these criminals then we could see immediate deportation for them before they commit crimes. The police are familiar with all gang members. Im sure they have files for all of them.

Anonymous said...

Because this Ramos was responsible for the deaths of 3 persons, we cannot give him any more consideration than we would give our own citizens. I feel more sorry for the wife and mother of the victims than I do for the illegal's mother. And San Francisco and any other city which declares itself a sanctuary city should receive no federal funding. Let's see how long they would want to stay a sanctuary city! Let's face it, we are not getting the cream of the crop when people enter this country illegally, we are getting the most uneducated, poorest people these countries have. This country does not need these kind of people.

patriot said...

Dee, you mean how you expoited the story about the Hispanic man (walking while brown) that died during a fight recently and immediately you called it a "hate crime"?

Don't try to tell us that your side doesn't exploit every story about Hispanics being harmed to suit YOUR agenda.

patriot said...

The workplace sweeps HAVE produced individuals who have committed identity theft which is a felony! They have also found individuals who have committed other felonies also.

Dee said...

Actually I have been some additional investigation:
The facts are there. Ramos has been in legal Pending status for the last two years. He married a citizen. The crimes he committed previously were as a juvenile and we all know they apply under separate rules. This issue has NOTHING to do with Illegal Immigration or the Mayor or Sanctuary City policy.

Dee said...

This issue has NOTHING to do with the Mayor or the Sanctuary City policy. Ramos was in LEGAL Pending status since he married an American Citizen and applied 2 years ago. The march gun charged would not be referred to ICE since he was in LEGAL status. This had NOTHING to do with the Sanctuary City laws.

anon 1 said...

You know what that makes Ramos? A murderer. A cold-blooded killer. Plain and simple. And yet, the ANTI's "froth at the mouth," (I love using that phrase) when they hear an ILLEEEEEGAL did it. "WELL HECK THAT MUST MAKE ALL YALL MEXKINS KILLERS, GANGBANGERS, THUGS (etc)."

And come to find out Ramos was in legal pending status. Forget your sides stupid, idiotic ANTI agenda's over Immigration. A mother and wife has lost her 2 sons and husband. There's no tragedy worse in this world for a single individual to handle. Yet, there are the ANTI's... FROTHING AT THE MOUTH

Alie said...

There is no excuse whatsoever for someone who is not only present in this country illegally, but ALSO committing crimes, to not be turned over to ICE and deported.

If those who commit these crimes had been deported when they were first discovered to be here illegally, and if our government was doing the job it has the responsibility of--protecting the citizens and legal residents of this country--these illegals wouldn't be here in the first place to commit these crimes.

We have enough of our own criminals and dirtbags without being expected to contend with the world's criminals also. THis is a no brainer in my book.

And the fact that illegal gangbangers were to become eligible for a "path to citizenship" under CIR just makes my blood run cold. What kind of insanity is running our government?

There is NO EXCUSE for providing any kind of legalization for criminal illegal aliens. After serving their sentences, they need to be deported so their own countries can deal with them instead of remaining here to prey on our citizens.

I would oppose any kind of CIR which had provisions for legalization of criminal illegal aliens.

Dee said...

Sorry Alie you are way off base. First, yes. we all feel very sad for the poor mom. Our hearts go out to her.
Second, yes. If Ramos did this he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Third. CIR is NOT what you said. CIR = 1. Secure borders. 2. employer sanctions 3. those that are felony free out of the shadows into some legal status. felonious criminals deported.
4. As I said, this story is NOT about illegal immigration. Ramos was in Legal status. In March he was in legal status. The earlier problems he had were tried in Juvenile Courts and they have different requirements than adult court. 5. What is WRONG is for the ANTI immigration zealots to use this familys tragedy to push their own agendas. Im seeing this done across the internet.

Anonymous said...

legal pending status and he still killed 3 of our citizens, just the kind of person we want in our country. and anon1 I don't think ramos is a messykin. I love saying that "messykin".

patriot said...

And the pro's are using the recent death of that Hispanic man beaten in a fight with white guys to demonize all white people also. So what is the difference? I read plenty of "foaming at the mouth" by the pro's on that one.

Anonymous said...

yeah patriot-they are "frothing"
over that ILLEEEEGAL over at latinopolitics.com. You are right anon1-I love saying that too. Look at them "froth at the mouth" over as they say "undocumented immigrant" when he ILLEEEEEGAL.

Alie said...

Dee, his legal status was pending, but he entered the country illegally and prior to his pending legal status he was here illegally. He should NEVER have been here. Even his mother came here illegally from what I understand and then later adjusted her status, but I am not sure of that.

Every single crime committed here by someone who entered the country illegally is one crime which would NOT have been committed if our government would have been doing its job of securing our borders and protecting American citizens.

Both sides of the debate use these types of stories to bolster their arguments. They pro-ilegal side is using the tragedy in PA to demonize the anti-illegal side.

And Diane was right. In the CIR which failed, gang members would only have had to sign an agreement saying that they renounced their gang membership. What a joke! They must really think Americans are stupid!

dianne said...

From the San Francisco Chronicle:
"Newsom pledges to make SF a sanctuary for illegal immigrants

Peter Fimrite, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, April 22, 2007
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(04-22) 18:56 PDT -- Mayor Gavin Newsom vowed Sunday to maintain San Francisco as a sanctuary for immigrants and do everything he can to discourage federal authorities from conducting immigration raids.

The mayor cannot stop federal authorities from making arrests, Newsom told about 300 mostly Latino members of St. Peter's Church and other religious groups supporting immigrants. But no San Francisco employee will help with immigration enforcement.

"I will not allow any of my department heads or anyone associated with this city to cooperate in any way shape or form with these raids," Newsom declared. "We are a sanctuary city, make no mistake about it."

Dee said...

Ramos, if guilty should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
However, my point of this particular post is, this is an isolated incident and has nothing to do with illegal immigration or sanctuary city policies.
Ramos was in Legal pending status both in March and last month when this event occurred. Therefore the Sanctuary City policy would not have applied to him. That means Mayor Newsom has absolutely zero culpability in this case.
Additionally, the offenses Ramos incurred as a youth were tried in Juvenile Court which have different rules than adult court and again probably had no impact on Sanctuary City policies.
While it is true he came in illegally at the age of 11, that does not have any impact on this case. We have no idea if he returned in the meantime or where or when he met his citizen wife. That part of the story was not included in the article.
The problem I have with this case is the ANTI Immigration Reform groups are using this family tragedy for their own purposes pushing thier own agenda.

Anonymous said...

Dee, you are a racist shill

dianne said...

What is legal pending status? How could he have achieved this as a convicted felon? Articles I read said he was deportable.

Dee said...

Dianne, First, I am not condoning the murderer. My heart goes out to the family.
I am only stating the facts of the case.
Ramos initially applied for citizenship. He was denied. Then, 2 years ago, he married a citizen. At that point he applied for Permanent Residency. This application was accepted and his status has been pending for 2 years.
Therefore, at the time of his Gun Charge and dismissal, the Sanctuary City policy did not apply. He was in a Legal status.
The city didnt do anything wrong and the sanctuary city policy did not apply.
However, ALL of the ANTI websites are piggy backing on to this cause. They are monopolizing the SF websites and pushing their agendas.
The family, in their grief, is being manipulated and is caught up in all of this mess.
It is a very, very sad case.
I feel very sorry for them.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Dianne, First, I am not condoning the murderer. My heart goes out to the family.
I am only stating the facts of the case.


Dee, the article can not be labeled as fact. You are only stating the authors information, which may be correct or it may not be. Facts may be later found out through court documents or a released publication from either the Police Department or from ICE itself in regards to the case.

From what I understand from the article: In March he was deportable, he must have recently, since March, married and American Citizen and then re-applied for permanent residency. The likeliness of him obtaining PR is next to ZERO now.

Alie said...

How can someone who entered the country illegally from the get-go turn around and apply for legal status due to marriage??

It is my understanding that those who came into the country legally on a visa and then subsequently overstayed their visa are eligible to adjust status. But, I was under the impression that someone who came in illegally was not eligible to adjust their status.

Could someone answer this for me? I, too, do not understand how his legal status was pending under these circumstances.

Liquidmicro said...

His legal status wasn't pending in March, he was still an "Illegal" then. He recently applied for PR due to having married and American Citizen, between April and now. He would have had to file for a fiance visa prior to filing for a PR visa.

Dee said...

Liquid, I didnt read it that way. I read he applied for citizenship when he was 18, was denied, then was married 2 years ago and applied for Resident Alien status and is Pending.
You are more knowledgeable than I am of the process. When your wife was legalized, was she allowed to be in this country and in some type of Legal status when she was pending?

Dee said...

BTW everyone, I have been very, very beat up over the last 3 days. Some vacation. Ive been on vacation this week. My hubby doesnt have as many weeks vacation as I do and I took this week to chill, swim and play around the house. My plans changed on Monday when I saw the Mom and this story. Then I went over to the ANTI sites and they were spearheading this story as their call to arms, writing, emailing, and contacting various media outlets. I thought this was wrong so I decided to visit the local blogs and all the usual ANTI commenters were there, dominating the sites. They beat me up from here to next week. I kept to point but it didnt matter. They just raked me over the coals and just beat the heck out of me. My only salvation was one SF blogger who was very smart and somehow heard what I was saying. Nevertheless, the haters continued beating me up after he left and now I am left in just pieces. But I am ok. (Liquid and Pat, I am sure you would have loved it). This really reminded me of the good ole days on that other discussion board. I am licking my wounds and as they say what doesnt kill you makes you stronger.
I feel so sad for the family. At one point the sister came on. This sad tragedy happened a month ago and those with an agenda already got to her. I felt sad for her but those others were relentless and surely agenda driven. Ultimately she became angry at me as well.
I wonder what will happen next with this case. That side is successfully making this a national issue. I fear for all those getting racially profiled, the children, the families, due to the anger being stirred up by the hate groups.
I dont know the answer. The evil perpetrator of this crime needs to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. That is clear. However, the hate groups are dogpiling on this issue and the end result can only lead to more hate. It just breaks my heart. I know no solution.
Prosecute the Guilty. YES!
PRAY FOR PEACE! YES!
STOP THE HATE! YES!
But how does this happen?
I truly dont know.
We should all say a prayer for the Families and for San Francisco.
Sad Times are Ahead for all of them.

Liquidmicro said...

"Federal authorities finally learned that Ramos wasn't a legal U.S. resident sometime after he turned 18, when he applied for temporary residency status and was turned down. The records are confidential, so the exact date of Ramos' application is unclear, but ICE spokeswoman Virginia Kice said that once he was turned down, he would have been considered deportable.

By that time, however, Ramos had married a woman who is a U.S. citizen and applied again to immigration officials to stay in the United States, this time as a permanent resident. That request was pending at the time Tony Bologna and his sons were shot to death."


He may have married the American Citizen between turning 18 and the present, however, he may not have applied for PR until recently, after March.

He first would have had to apply for a fiance visa before he could apply for PR. In order to apply for the fiance visa he would have had to submit an I-94 form, being "Illegal" he doesn't have one and can not obtain one. Therefor, his pending status for PR will more than likely be nullified and he will be considered deportable after his court hearings and probably his conviction.

Dee said...

Could an Immigration Lawyer or the Consulate have been able to help him obtain an I 94? In pending status, is he allowed to be in this country legally?

Liquidmicro said...

There is no way he could obtain an I-94 unless he had a prior visa, H-2A, B, H-1B TN, etc. No stamped passport and no I-94, no chance for legal status. Without a prior visa he will gain no legal status in any way. Pending status is nothing more than a ploy to deter the inevitable. He is exhausting all options, each time furthering his time of being denied entry into the USA from 3 years to 5 years to 10 years.

Liquidmicro said...

"Meanwhile, local authorities and federal officials were pointing fingers of blame at each other over Ramos' most recent arrest prior to the shooting.

Ramos was arrested in the city's Tenderloin neighborhood in late March with another man after police discovered a gun used in a double homicide in the car Ramos was driving.

The district attorney's office decided not to file charges against Ramos, and he was released on April 2 even though he was in the process of being deported after his application for legal residence was turned down, according to the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, known as ICE. "


Maybe this explains it better, seems he was denied PR already and thus made him eligible for deportation in March.

Dee said...

I am reading your article Liquid. Here is what it says "Amparan (his lawyer) declined to discuss details of the case but also denied that his client was involved in “gang activities” and said that Ramos “entered the country LEGALLY,” even though federal officials contend Ramos is undocumented."

He must have been a Visa Overstay.

Dee said...

Here is the part about the JUVENILE Offenders program:

"Officials in the JUVENILE OFFENDERS agency INTERPRETED the law to also shield underaged FELONS from deportation by refusing to report their undocumented status. Mayor Gavin Newsom said he rescinded the nearly two-decade policy regarding juvenile offenders after learning about it in May."


I figured this is what happened. The Juvenile Dept misinterpreted the intent of the law.

Liquidmicro said...

I read the SF posts you made, you were to unwilling to listen. You took your interpretation of the article and failed to realize the article wasn't very clear in its information. Then when you began calling others out, such as zealots, you put your foot in your mouth. You started calling others as members of organizations without having much proof. Then even Mrs. Kennedy took you to count. You brought it all on yourself.

You need to read and be a little more open minded with these articles, the first article out the gate isn't always correct or clear. You stick to much to things said without putting the information into an order. Articles are NOT FACTS, they are information only, mostly opinion from the author. They are a good starting point to do research to learn the facts by finding other documented information.

Frankly, I saw that you got what you deserved over there.

Liquidmicro said...

"He must have been a Visa Overstay."

Now you are relying on what the lawyer is stating? Lawyer are out for there client, they will say anything to prevent the situation from going in directions that they do not want, they are there to help there client.

His lawyer also states that he is innocent. They have the wrong guy. We won't know the real FACTS until this goes to trial and evidence is provided and documented.

Dee said...

Here is where the Immigration Backlog, understaffing and mismanagement at ICE come in:

San Francisco Sheriff's Department spokesman Eileen Hirst said jail officials had faxed ICE on March 30 asking if Ramos should remain jailed. Ramos was freed after Hirst said immigration officials didn't respond.

ICE spokesman Timothy Counts said his agency did not receive word of Ramos arrest in March. He contends that the only communication received about Ramos was an “electronic message” from the sheriff's department three hours after his release.

Liquidmicro said...

"He must have been a Visa Overstay."

To many assumptions by you. Lawyers are rats, they can not be trusted. But like I said, now it leaves an impression of doubt and opens the chance for different directions for the attorney and his client. He put the proof of providing evidence onto the courts and ICE.

Dee said...

The Sanctuary Law itself was NEVER, EVER meant to shield Felons. Here if the official response:

Nathan Ballard, a spokesman for San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, said city officials were wrong to shield undocumented, juvenile felons from federal immigration authorities.

“The sanctuary program was never intended to shield felons,” Ballard said. “The policy was inappropriate.”

However, Newsom “still supports the worthwhile aims of denying the federal government” assistance in deporting otherwise law-abiding undocumented residents, Ballard said.

Dee said...

You know Liquid, I agree that ALL Felonious criminals that are illegal immigrants should be immediately deported. If sweeps are ever done, gangs, etc. should be targetted. Just like the old days when the FBI infiltrated the mob, they should do the same for the gangs.

The Sanctuary Laws were not the problem. The problem was the backlog and mismanagement.

Dee said...

Ramos is a deplorable criminal. He should have been deported a long time ago. He makes me so angry. His heinous crimes not only hurt the poor family, he also hurt all Latinos because the hate groups are using this awful murder to champion their cause. I am absolutely sick over this!

Dee said...

Liquid, You are out there in that area. I was on the comment boards and there were quite a few extremists who were talking about ridding the city of IAs. They said they could tell who they are by looking at them. (We know who they are). This struck me as a very scary statement. Are you hearing anything?

Dee said...

Liquid, From the lawyers perspective, if he committed the murders, why would it make a difference whether he is a Visa Overstay or not? Doesnt seem like it would matter.

dianne said...

Chiming in again.

I haven't read any of the anti sites (except Malkin) or the comments Dee made or responses to her, but, I do know that Dee does not condone cold blooded murder and she obviously fears for the negative reactions against Latinos this tragedy will bring about.

I am what Dee refers to as an anti, but I am not anti Latino, I am against illegal immigration and amnesty. This Ramos case points out the tragedy that happens when things get out of hand as they have in sanctuary cities. And, it also points out the horrible problem that this country has with the growing gangs in this country. HOWEVER, we pros need to be careful not to stir up hatred against the whole Latino population. This is wrong! Of course there will be those who want to do that, such as white supremacists, and unfortunately we cannot stop them, but I sincerely believe the majority of "antis" are not racists and simply want to get this country back under control according to the law. And, Dee, I hope you realize that too.

Liquidmicro said...

"Doesnt seem like it would matter."

It may have other implementations yet to be known. Laws may have different effects due to circumstances, such as the death penalty due to "special Circumstances". So, yes it does matter, it may very well be a matter of life and death.

Liquidmicro said...

You have said in the past that you and your side could tell who they are just by looking at them, now you say that others can't tell? I think one has a very good idea when there is an illegal present, but nobody can tell 100% just by looking at them, I don't care who you think you are.

Dee said...

Dianne, You are right. I am worried on the impact the "anger agenda" will bring on Latinos overall. I dont support Mass Deportation (even over 4 years) but the ANTI movement seems driven to achieve this. They are using this case as their "Remember the Alamo" rallying cry. What if they succeed? How do you implement Mass Deportation of 12 - 20M people, even over 4 years, without Racial Profiling and neighborhood "suppression" sweeps? What about the vigilantism that is sure to occur if this becomes the law of the land? I worry for the children, for the families and anyone Brown if this ever becomes the law in our country.

Dee said...

Dianne, I believe that you and the commenters of this board are non violent and not ANTI Latino. I do believe that.

dianne said...

Dee, mass deportation isn't going to happen. There will be nothing that draconian that will ever make it through Congress, under either McCain or Obama. There may be a strong call for the fence and certainly much more concerning criminals and I hope, an end to sanctuary cities.

As for those already here, I don't know what will happen but I'm sure the American public won't put up with giving away the farm again as they did in the 1980's.

Anonymous said...

maybe for the good of their own people (the american citizens of their own ethnicity) they could self deport with the promise of free transportation to the border.
no one wants neigborhood sweeps and no one wants our American citizens of hispanic background to be harrassed. perhaps, hispanic television and radio channels could try and get the word out.

Big Think said...

Hi Dee!

I am Annelle with BigThink. We recently interviewed John Hopkins brain surgeon Dr. Alfredo Quinones-Hinojosa, who twenty years ago hopped a border fence from Mexico into the United States and became a migrant farm worker. To listen to him tell the story of his amazing journey from undocumented laborer to world-renowned researcher, go to:
http://www.bigthink.com/user/dr-alfredo-quinones-hinojosa


Dr. Quinones-Hinojosa has recently appeared on Channel 11 News in Baltimore,
(http://www.wbaltv.com/family/11177318/detail.html?rss=bal&psp=news)
National Public Radio,
(http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10013111)
the ABC series "Hopkins,"
http://hopkins.abcnews.com/episodes
to name a few. His story is compelling, and nowhere has he been interviewed in more depth than at BigThink.

With VDare's intrepid defense of immigrant rights, we thought that our video of Dr. Quinones-Hinojosa telling his story as an immigrant, as well as describing his ground-breaking work, would be a valuable post. This is an ideal way for your visitors to hear the voice of one of our country's cutting-edge brain surgeons, a man who used to be an "illegal alien."

All of our videos are easily embeddable by clicking on the envelope icon on the bottom right corner of each clip. The embed codes appear in the first field. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to e-mail either of our editors, Sean McManus (sean@bigthink.com) or Brett Dobbs (brett@bigthink.com). We hope you enjoy Big Think. Thanks!

Sincerely,
Annelle

patriot said...

The illegals will leave voluntarily if the Save Act is passed and in particular the e-verify system part of it that will be made mandatory in checking those on an employers payroll already and any future hires. What is to fear about that? All employees will be checked, not just Hispanics. You are as usual blowing smoke dee where there is no fire! You know this will work and that is why you object and can't scream racial profiling with e-verify.

Anonymous said...

big think,

wow-you give us one success story-
how impressive. 12 to 20 million illegals have swarmed into our country, we will need you to supply us with at least a million or two of these stories to even make a dent.

anon 1 said...

anonymous,

wow-you can count to one-how impressive. It's too bad stupid racist idiots aren't the one's being deported instead of ILLEEEEGALS. Ofcourse if they did, you'd be the 1st in line.

PS see liquid, your side uses trigger words too, anonymous used "swarm"

patriot said...

Let's deport the racists along with the illegals. Got you bags packed yet?

Anonymous said...

anon1

be nice or dee will throw you off her blog-lol

Dee said...

This case has left me broken hearted for the family. I pray they find both Peace and Justice. It is such a sad, sad case. After being on the boards for several days (some vacation) I did learn some new facts. The family is very close. They are Americans of Latino descent and spent many weekends together, like my family does. I think they are still in shock over these tragic events. This has really devastated them which is understandable.
The comment board is a mess. Many there are angrily and meanly pushing their hate agendas. They hate the Mayor and want him fired. They hate illegal aliens. Some hate Latinos, believe most latinos are Reconquistas. They especially hate me. They called me every name in the book and more. It was just exhausting. They dont spend time mourning or praying or supporting the family. Instead the thrive in hate. They exude hate. They are not interested in the facts of the case at all. It is impossible to have a civil discussion with most of them. All they do is rale and bobble about Mass Deportation. They dont even consider Gang Violence or Assault Weapons or Drugs as factors. I believe most of the commenters are from one particular ANTI site we know. Their lead agenda is to end Sanctuary City policies and to fire the Mayor. Some posted American Patrol and Tancredo references so a number of ANTI groups and shock jocks are all in this together. What a group. I am almost sorry I visited, but I did meet a few nice people actually from San Francisco.
I pray the family finds peace and the hate groups dont exploit them or hurt them too much. I pray for Peace across our country. Perhaps our new President will figure out a compromise all sides can agree upon and we can finally resolve the Immigration and Race issue so prevalent in our country today.

Liquidmicro said...

"After being on the boards for several days (some vacation) I did learn some new facts."

Post them or update the article of yours. Then explain the new facts.

patriot said...

Yeah, dee. What anti board were you on so we can look at the remarks objectively ourselves?

Dee said...

Liquid,
You are so bossy today. I am still feeling very sad for the family. I am still sad the anti groups are exploiting them for this lawsuit they want to move forward on.

Just to share some of the things I learned:
. I did find this quote by the City Attorney. (see below)
. I did learn the family was American Latinos.
. I did learn the hate groups are exploiting the family for their own agendas.
. I did find the actual policy that Newsom supported which has nothing to do with criminal activity. http://www.sfgov.org/site/mayor_index.asp?id=78378
. I did meet some very nice people in SF on the boards. I think I will be friends with them for a while. Very knowledgeable and they did help me.

It is a sad case. I am worn out from dealing with the haters. I have had a nice day with my hubby and g babies and trying to avoid the site but I may go on later tonight, not sure. When I interact with those haters, it is like visiting the 7th layer. I am sure they will be going back there in the afterlife. I am sure you are very familiar with the site. And no Pat, I am not giving you the link. I do not want to advertise their hate. You would have too much fun with their bashing me. If anyone posts it, I am deleting the link.


. City Attorney Dennis Herrera issued an opinion after Newsom's news conference saying that although there is nothing in the sanctuary-city law that prevents San Francisco officials from alerting the federal government when a juvenile illegal immigrant is arrested, there is also nothing in federal law that requires them to do so.

Liquidmicro said...

ILLEGALS CALLED COURT'S PROBLEM
MAYOR'S VIEW: Newsom says he lacks authority to turn over immigrant lawbreakers to feds



I see a lot of finger pointing and "it's not my fault" going on here. Law is about interpretation and convincing judges your interpretation is better than the others. Someone is responsible, they had better get it figured out. Newsome, is one moron I can not stand, he has no morals, no ethics, just a disgusting man that only sees himself when standing in front of an audience.

Dee said...

Liquid, I do have a question for you. I am curious. How was it the newspapers were able to retrieve juvenile records in SF? I thought all juvenilve activity was kept confidential and never allowed access by the media. Is it different in SF?

"The widespread uproar over the Bolognas' deaths began this week, after the San Francisco Chronicle reported that Ramos had been found guilty of two felonies as a juvenile."

Liquidmicro said...

They didn't beat you up that bad over there Dee, it was merely the same couple that were doing it, you flamed the fire with accusations back. You have to quit equating everybody to ALIPAC. In the beginning you went there looking for an argument, you since changed some of your views since the original talking points, as I am sure you changed some of the others views. You began to open your mind abit to other truths and realities while still standing your ground.

Dee said...

District Attorney Kamala Harris states the sanctuary law "was never intended to shield anyone from being held accountable for a crime. It's intended to encourage immigrant victims and witnesses to report crimes without fear of reprisal so we can hold offenders accountable."

Liquidmicro said...

How was it the newspapers were able to retrieve juvenile records in SF?

Haven't researched it much at all. Possible leak? Arresting records? Information from the drop houses they were in? Good research by the reporters?

Dee said...

Ok Liquid. I appreciate your insightful feedback. (Some of those guys were still jerks tho. Will you go ask them to be gentlemen in forums going forward?)

Dee said...

Also, there were several tag teams. I was always double teamed. It seems there were two in the day, 2 in the afternoon and 2 in the eve. I handled them until the nutcase (ICE-WFF) got on my last nerve. I know some were from alipac. some admitted it. On Wed., I almost got ICE to agree to leave Mrs B alone then I would show up on Ws show. I still have that as my straw card because W wants to be famous. I thought about going anyway but why give him the additional audience. I dont know.

My whole point is, I do not like this poor family being exploited by these guy. Actually, Mrs. B looks a little like my sister.

Dee said...

Liquid, You are also right. I did modify my perspective & argument as I learned more about the history and facts of the case.

Dee said...

Also, what I learned:
The city did some pretty screwy things. Examples:
. the Juvenile Officials had flown some juvenile drug dealers out of the country rather than turn them over to federal officials and placed others in unlocked group homes.

In 1996:
Nancy Alcantar, then an official with the Immigration and Naturalization Service in San Francisco, had agreed in 1996 not to pursue illegal immigrant offenders for deportation. (so the Juvenile aspects to this case were all decided by this one individual from INS - ICE)

patriot said...

So this forum is a "hate" forum because they didn't agree with your views?

How is pointing out that if this illegal alien hadn't been in our country that these people would be alive today, exploiting the case?

Weren't you "exploiting" the case of the young Hispanic male who got beat up in PA recently by those "white kids"?

Funny when the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it dee?

Dee said...

Liquid,
You know what Liquid? I think you are right. I visited their blog tonight. They have a handful of angry locals. (plus a few alipac visitors but only from time to time).

I am not going back. I cause too much attention and too much activity.

Plus, it took FAR too much time.

I accomplished nothing. They never listened to me and never wanted to understand the points I was making. Thats ok.I didnt listen to most of them either.

It was obvious they did like arguing with me though. LOL.

I´m tired of it. At the end of the day, I didnt change anyones minds and I just wasted mine.

patriot said...

By the way dee, those three that were murdered weren't Latino per se as in "Hispanic." They were Italians.

Dee said...

I know the mom and her sister are Latinos Pat. The sister told me so herself. However that has nothing to do with this deplorable crime by the gang members with assault weapons. May they face the fullest penalty of the law and may the police find the source of those weapons and stop the source.

patriot said...

They are Latino, how? By what nationality? Italians are not really Latinos.

I agree the crimes were inexcusable and Ramos should be punished to the full extent of the law. I also agree with most that sanctuary cities should be outlawed.

Dee said...

Pat, they are Americans. Their ethnicity is Hispanic. Latinos. The sister told me so herself and she asked all the other commenters NOT to make this an ethnicity issue. However this has nothing to do with this deplorable crime by the gang members with assault weapons. May they face the fullest penalty of the law and may the police find the source of those weapons and stop the source.

patriot said...

As I asked, how are Italians Hispanic? Do they speak Spanish or practice the Hispanic culture or do they speak Italian and practice the Italian culture. If they do neither of the above then yes, they are just plain Americans by nationality and culture, not Hispanic.

Dee said...

The wives are NOT Italian: i dont even know the family is italian: The wives are LATINO.

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