Wednesday, October 8, 2008

Bush Legacy: Another Raid, Another 300 to Crony Owned Prisons

Another 300 are "detained" in a SC Poultry Plant ICE Raid. Families are being ripped apart. Children are crying in the streets searching for their parents. Their families do not know where their loved ones are being "detained." The inhumanity of it all!
As the days dwindle down to a precious few, Dubya is ensuring his crony owned private prisons are filled to the Maximum.
The House of Raeford Chicken processing plants are well known for hiring illegal immigrants, particularly from Guatemala. As recently as last February, managers from their SC plant bragged to local newspapers of their hiring practices. In June, several Supervisors and Managers were arrested. As I read through this article, two things struck me.
1. The ICE investigation and Supervisor arrests occurred months ago. Why did ICE delay so many months to conduct the ice raid? Why not in June?
2. The Detention Center the detainees are going to is not listed in any article I could find on the web . Why not? I suspect they will be sent to another crony owned private prison. Why isn´t the name being reported as in other cases?
I find this whole story Very Curious. I will be following up on this story.
GREENVILLE, S.C. Federal authorities raided a House of Raeford Farms plant Tuesday, detaining more than 300 workers believed to be in the country illegally and searching for evidence of unlawful hiring practices. It was the largest immigration raid ever conducted in the Carolinas. It came after authorities determined that 777 of 825 workers at the plant had apparently submitted false documents to get their jobs.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials say they'll continue their long-running investigation to determine who allowed illegal immigrants to work at the plant, known locally as Columbia Farms. Investigating the employers, they said, is as large a priority as identifying illegal workers.
The detained employees will be questioned about the company's hiring procedures, authorities said, and may be deported. Investigators will ask workers how they were paid, whether they knew anything about hiring practices and whether anyone at the company offered them false documents...

In a February series about working conditions in the poultry industry, five current and former supervisors told the Observer that some House of Raeford managers knew they employed illegal immigrants. They said the plant prefers undocumented workers because they are less likely to question working conditions for fear of losing their jobs or being deported. In a statement Tuesday night, House of Raeford denied knowingly hiring illegal workers. Federal law, the company said, requires it to accept documents that appear to be valid, and to be sensitive to nondiscrimination laws...
Raeford managers await trial
Over the summer, ICE arrested 11 plant supervisors at their homes and charged them with immigration violations. Seven plant supervisors have pleaded guilty to using false Social Security numbers or alien registration numbers. Two are awaiting trial and two more are considered fugitives. The plant's human resources director, Elaine Crump, was arrested in July. She was indicted on 20 felony counts charging that she instructed employees to use fraudulent employment eligibility forms. She is expected in court later this month. Authorities allege Crump instructed human resource employees to use previously signed employment verification documents for new hires. Crump knew that the company official who had signed the verification papers could not have witnessed whether immigrant job applicants provided the required documentation, the indictment states. That's because the company official was no longer working at the plant. Since the initial arrests in June, dozens of workers have left their jobs. The company has been hiring fewer Latinos and has turned to state prisons to fill its production lines.

215 comments:

1 – 200 of 215   Newer›   Newest»
patriot said...

Here we go again! Another attempt at demonizing the enforcement of our immigration laws by a so-called loyal citizen. Of course the illegals will be excused as usual for their behavior and the Bush Admin. will be blamed for seperating families rather than the illegals creating this situation for themselves. Poor illegals, they didn't know what they were doing and were forced across the border to work illegally in this country at slave labor wages and conditions.

We should probably release every American criminal in every jail across the country who has family, right? Afterall, it isn't their fault that they are seperated from their families but someone elses fault.

The Arizonian said...

Obama Sheeple Cheer Police Violation Of Free Speech

Attempts to succinctly explain banker bailout scam that Obama helped push through met with mindless bleating

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Thursday, October 9, 2008

Police kicked protester Benjamin Harms off Belmont University campus this week before the presidential debate for the crime of “trespassing” as hundreds of mindless Obama supporters cheered the outright violation of free speech.

The protagonist’s attempts to succinctly explain the banker bailout scam - which Barack Obama has fully supported - in clear and concise terms was met with the mindless bleating of “Obama, Obama, Obama” - perfectly underscoring the vacuum of Obama’s empty platitudes of “change” and the deluded idolatry of his supporters.

“Obama and McCain are the same,” chanted another demonstrator as police and security thugs moved in to ensure that anyone that dared use their freedom of speech to communicate a real message was hastily ejected, while the Obama cult members were left completely alone to continue their pointless rhetoric.

“Kick him out, kick him out,” chanted the Obama-ites as the group tried to explain to the police the meaning of the first amendment.

“I am now being escorted away by police from the scene because I don’t have a right to free speech,” said Harms, to which the Obama crowd responded with whoops, cries and hollers of “yeeeeahhhh” in celebration of the fact that cops were crushing the first amendment.

“I have a right to speak my mind just like all of you do,” added Harms.

“They don’t like what I’m saying so I’m being escorted by the police off of the campus.”

Police threatened to arrest Harms and refused to tell him where the property line of the campus was. They were also unable to tell him why the use of a bullhorn was illegal, enforcing a claimed law of which they had no knowledge.

Watch the clip below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ivQczE8meE

Analisa said...

Dee,

I know you would like people to be respectful in this forum, but I somehow fail to detect even a modicum of respect in 'patriot's' comments to you ("so-called loyal citizen") or in his constant demonization of undocumented workers. We are talking about HUMAN BEINGS here, not folks who rob, murder and steal. Like all past immigrant groups, these are people who have come to this country looking for the same opportunities for a decent life that attracted our ancestors. The Irish, German, English, Italian were not really 'legal,' either. I saw a great bumper sticker the other day: "Yes, immigration is a problem - just ask an Indian." Native Americans were never compensated for the theft of their land, so that makes YOU an illegal alien, Patriot. And me, and every one of us who is not a Native American. We are all illegals. Just because you are descended from ruthless ancestors who stole from the natives and committed genocide doesn't make you 'legal' in any sense of the term. But you seem to think you are somehow privileged - that you have a right to be mean-spirited and hateful, patriot. I beg to disagree. And I'm sorry, Dee, but I just had to say that. It seems to me that the nativists are picking on the most vulnerable people simply because they can get away with it. That tells you something about the kind of people they are. They are really nothing more than bullies who enjoy having someone weaker to pick on - folks with a penchant for violence against anyone they perceive as different. Anyway, it tells you a lot about the kind of people they are. We used to be a welcoming country - a place that the rest of the world looked for our ideals, for our dedication to human rights. But not anymore. We are quickly morphing into a very vindictive, mean-spirited nation of people (you can see it by the way we torture people now and by the way we terrorize people through these raids). What is there to differentiate us from the WWII-era Nazis and their attitudes towards the Jews? Not much, in my view.

Finally, I would like to point out that many immigrants are here because they truly have little choice. Often, the only available options are to leave their homelands or starve. When NAFTA was passed, the Mexican market was flooded with U.S. corn. This put tens of thousands of Mexican farmers out of work. Our monetary aid to Colombia (with the worst human record in the hemisphere)has resulted in the displacement of over four million people. You will see more immigrants coming to the United States from Mexico simply out of fear for their safety with the passage of the Merida Innitiative which is already creating a huge refugee problem. So it is our policies towards other countries that are contributing to this problem. But we must find humane ways to deal with it. What bothers me most is the lack of even an ounce of human compassion from folks like patriot and the arizonian. They pretend they are not racist, but it's pretty obvious that they are haters. Their ugliness is transparent and a disgrace to us all. Well, I am praying hard for the immigrants whose lives are being devastated by these raids. And I sincerely hope that one day when Latinos are a majority and they have more power, patriot will be able to look them in the face --as they have done with the black people they lynched, hunted and degraded in the past -- and say "Forgive us. We were wrong." That day will will arrive soon enough. Thank you for another informative blog, Dee.

Analisa

patriot said...

analisa, (I suspect who you really are and you fool no one on your true identity). I do not demonize all illegal aliens as serious criminals nor have you read that from me in here, so that makes you a liar! I have never suggested that they aren't human beings and shouldn't be treated as such. Another lie!

You are incorrect that most of the German, Irish, English didn't come here legally. They came here after the U.S. government was established and within the laws of our government at that time.

If you have a problem with "stolen land" then take it up with our government, not its legal citizens. And that doesn't make me or anyone else born on our soil not citizens. My ancestros were not ruthless. They didn't come here prior to the formation of the U.S. government. They killed no one.

Yeah, right our government's immigration policies are just plain hateful and so is anyone else who wants them enforced. We have no right to soveirgn borders. Tell that to the rest of the nations on this planet too, will you? I don't care how different someone is. I expect immigrants to be "different" since they are not of our culture. But I also expect them to come here legally.

What a load of BS you spew! We still are a welcoming country. We take in more legal immigrants than any other nation on the planet. Another one of your lies!

Yep, you gave yourself away at the end. You are the racist one by making the remark that you can't wait till Latinos are the majority and take control and power in this country. What if I had said, "I can't wait till anglos invade Mexico illegally and take control of that country"? Are you too stupid to see what a racist statement that is.

One final word, KMA!

patriot said...

Oh and by the way "analisa"....lol, Mexicans and other Latinos are not the only poor, supposedly starving people in this world. Do you then advocate that we should take them all in and commit national suicide by increasing our population by millions nad millions more?

You should be mad at their governments for not taking care of their own people, not the government and citizens of THIS country. Do something useful and fight for THAT change instead of coming in here pulling the race card and making false accusations about what I have said in here.

Dee said...

Analisa,
I agree with you. Feel free to disagree with Pat anytime, but I do like him here.

Pat is not KKK. He is your man next door. He is the guy you see at the supermarket every day. He might even nod at you as you go by. But inside, he is thinking these thoughts. He is also very paranoid at times thinking anyone like you or me or Robles or LMJ are all the same person.

I could not make up Pat. We (all humanitarians, PROs and like minded people) have to know he is out there and understand what he is thinking. We have to dialogue with him.

Most Discussion Boards are either PRO Immigration Reform (Humanitarian like us) or ANTI Immigration Reform (like Pat). If a PRO goes in an ANTI forum, they quickly get beat up and kicked out. OR If an ANTI goes in a PRO forum they get kicked out. We have to talk to each other, even if we never agree, we have to at least let the other person voice their opinion. We have to understand most people have these opinions, even though they keep these opinions inside. Maybe we won´t change anyone´s mind, but at least we will begin to understand each other´s perspective. That is a start.




Analisa said....
And I'm sorry, Dee, but I just had to say that. It seems to me that the nativists are picking on the most vulnerable people simply because they can get away with it. That tells you something about the kind of people they are.

Dee said...

Pat,
Even if you dont agree the families are being treated poorly, at least look at the questions in my post:
1. The ICE investigation and Supervisor arrests occurred months ago. Why did ICE delay so many months to conduct the ice raid? Why not in June?
2. The Detention Center the detainees are going to is not listed in any article I could find on the web . Why not? I suspect they will be sent to another crony owned private prison. Why isn´t the name being reported as in other cases?


What is your answer to these questions?

Liquidmicro said...

To answer your questions, Dee.

1) Arrest Warrants!! They are not issued over night. It has taken some time to obtain 800+ for that location. All the names were based on the information in the company files.

2) The name of the detention center will be given once they are all processed, until then it will be a hush hush situation. Keep in mind, if these people are not being charged with a 'crime' they have 'no rights'.

patriot said...

And just what thoughts am I supposedly thinking inside, dee? Care to elaborate? You don't know me personally so you have no idea what I think "inside". What I think inside is the same thing I SAY on the outside.

Ethnocentric pro's just hide under the cloak of humanitarism. If they were truly humanitarian they would care for their own fellow citizens above illegal foreigners who do impact us in a negative way and disrespect our immigration laws.

I have no idea what the answers are to your 2 questions, dee. I am not ICE. Why don't you ask them instead? As usual, you are building some kind of conspiracy in your own head that fits with your agenda without even knowing the facts behind the scene first.

Alie said...

Dee, I have to say that I do enjoy your blog. Like you say, there are very few blogs and forums where people can talk openly to each other without being shouted down, censored, or banned. At least here we are free to speak out opinions and maintain a level of civility even if the debates do get heated at times. Thanks for providing this opportunity.

Alie said...

Liquid, I thought you provided one of the best explanations of the distinction between the civil and criminal cases. But I am still a little confused.

If an illegal is here working with stolen I.D. or SS#, doesn't that then make it criminal rather than just an administative violation? Then if it is criminal, wouldn't rights apply?

Liquidmicro said...

The Government has the choice to prosecute for a criminal charge, i.e. document fraud/forgery, for which the Government must now provide burden of proof. Or to plea deal it down to, sign this paper and be barred for 3 - 10 years and if caught you will be charged with a 'felony' as an 'Administrative Violation'.

The Administrative Violation relieves the Government of having to provide any 'rights' to the 'Illegal Alien', thus detention center or immediate deportation, depending on country of origin.

The Criminal Charge would require the "Illegal Immigrant" to remain in the custody of our criminal system until his/her court date, which could be as long as 2 years in jail. Most "Illegals" opt for the sign and leave.

Anonymous said...

Analisa, you need to stop with all the race baiting. Americans are the most generous people in the entire world. Your "humanitarian" mantra seems to demand we take in all the poor and oppressed of the world, especially those of Latin America. I, nor anyone in this country, has to apologize to anyone for the past. I'm sick of hearing that. The past is over and done with it. Move on. America has a duty to help it's own poor people. Why are we obligated to help Mexico's poor? That is Mexico's responsibility. Why don't you go to Mexico and help them there? We have enough of a crisis in our own country.

hran said...

Analisa,

Your statement is quite good. I couldn't make this sort of thing up. Been reading a lot of Howard Zinn lately? In any case, you hit on many of the elements of of anti-white ideology, particularly in your whites-as-the-root-of-all-evil version of history. Utterly brainwashed. There's probably no hope.

Dee said...

Hran,
You know as well as I do, people have their own thoughts and ideas. No one can make this stuff up.

For example, I find you an enigma. I find many of your admitted White Nationalist views unconscionable, yet you are civil and intelligent.

You find many of my views and Analisa´s Humanitarian views as unbelievable.

When I picture a WN, I get a picture, but I doubt you fit that picture.

My point is, and also in reference to Pat´s earlier response to me, each of us has a picture in our mind of what a WN or ANTI looks like, but in reality, they look like the guy next door.

Pat says he looks a little like Richard Gere (with all his hair). I can´t picture Pat´s words coming out of Gere´s mouth, but it is probably true. We need to know this.

Dee said...

Here is an update on this case:
The rest are being detained in GEORGIA and await deportation.

During the course of the investigation into Columbia Farms, agents reviewed 825 copies of I-9 forms that are used to verify a worker’s immigration status, U.S. Attorney Walt Wilkins said.

Of those, 94 percent were found to be falsified. As a result of the investigation, a human resources manager at the plant has been indicted and accused of encouraging supervisors to falsify employment documents.

This week, Wilkins said the investigation will continue but declined to say how far up the chain of command it could lead.

On Thursday, McDonald said that federal agents have secured a wealth of records from the plant that they will pore over.

"In addition to the worksite investigation ... another important part to Tuesday's action was the execution of the search warrant," McDonald said. "Agents did obtain documentary and computer records that we believe will assist us in this ongoing investigation."

In the past several weeks following the initial stages of the investigation, five other employees have pleaded guilty to immigration fraud charges and another seven have been indicted, including a human resources manager who faces 20 felony counts accusing her of encouraging supervisors to falsify employment documents.

Dee said...

My guess is they were shipped to the crony owned private prison in Lumpkin GA. It has a very bad reputation for mistreatment of "detainees."
So close to the end of Bush´s term, he wanted to fill up the crony owned private prisons. Just as I suspected.
This is what happened last year at Lumpkin:
"A Georgia civil rights and prison advocacy group ended a weeklong 105-mile (169-kilometer) march with a protest Saturday outside a private prison that houses about 1,600 undocumented immigrants.

The protest came at the end of the Prison & Jail Project's annual Freedomwalk to highlight what they perceive as racial and social inequities in the criminal justice system in the state's rural southwest.

The protest happened outside the Stewart Detention Center, a private prison run by the Corrections Corp. of America. The prison opened in October 2006 and with about 500 employees it has become the largest employer in Stewart County, one of the poorest counties in Georgia.

patriot said...

Your idea that the Bush Administration is enforcing immigration law to fill up so-called crony owned detention centers is laughable to say the least, dee. You keep repeating that with no proof whatsover. Who cares who owns these detention centers anyway? The idea of enforcing immigration laws for monetary gain is a stretch for anyone with a sane mind.

Isn't Bush turning his back on his crony corporations thirsting for higher profits from hiring illegal aliens then? Think about it, dee! You don't make any sense at all.

Analisa said...

“The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid,
And the marshals and cops get the same,
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool.
"He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.”

--Bob Dylan

Analisa said...

Dee and Pat,

I appreciate that you are trying to bring people together on both sides of this issue, Dee. I think you have a very good point that each of us has an image of the person on the other side of this issue. I’ve barely arrived on your blog, and Pat already thinks he knows me. Yet I have posted the grand total of two comments to your blog. I have never met you or any of the others on this blog. You know the truth of my statement, Dee. Yet, Pat seems pretty sure of himself... He knows everything about me. Well, that comment was so out in left field that I was tempted to laugh him off as a total fool and just leave it at that. I mean, what’s the point of responding to such paranoid B.S.? But then I thought about what you said, Dee. And perhaps I am being unfair…perhaps Pat is more than this. So I would like to extend the olive branch.

Pat, it's true don’t know you. For all I know, you may be the sort of person who would go out of his way to help someone in need (although this is not my image of you thus far). Dee says that you would most likely smile at me in the supermarket if we met. I don’t doubt it…I probably fit the profile of someone you’d smile at. But, you know, that means nothing to me if you would treat an undocumented immigrant with hatred and disdain. In my opinion, you can judge people by how they treat the least fortunate among us -- that is, the most vulnerable. And the undocumented are the most vulnerable people in our society.

The people I respect the most go out of their way to see the humanity in others, regardless of their status. That's how I would like to see you: in your full humanity. But I can’t lie to you, Pat. So far, the image I have of you is of a small-minded bigot (because all I’ve heard from you is your relentless hatred for undocumented peoples). But, as I said, that may be entirely unfair (then again, it may not). So, I would like to know you as a human being. Who are you? How do you se yourself? What about this obsession with the issue of “illegal immigration”? Where does that come from? Are you concerned about other issues as well? Why pick on people who are the poorest of the poor - people are just trying to survive? People who are doing exactly what you would do if your children were starving and there was no work in your country. Why pick on these people and not the rich CEO’s at AIG who just spent much of their bailout money on a $500,000 vacation in the Carribean? These folks are a much greater threat to our nation…they may plunge us into a deep recession or even a depression before they are through. So, your demonization of the most vulnerable people puzzles me. I can't lie. It seems truly mean-spirited. I admit it: I don’t understand you very well. But I’d like to. I’d like to see you in a more human way…not just the image I have of you so far.

I think Dee is right. We are both dealing to a certain extent in the stereotypes we have of each other. Just personally, I find it hard to admire bullies... I guess that’s my “stereotype” of you because it seems just a little too easy to scapegoat immigrants for all your problems. But again, I don't know if that's a fair assessment. You may be the type of man who would give an immigrant water if you found him stumbling through the desert. If this is the case, then I apologize for my attitudes. But I don't know if that's true, either.

Anyway, here’s who I am: I am an ESL teacher…so I arrived at my own views concerning immigrants by working closely with them and by listening to their stories. I have seen just how hard immigrants work to survive and how much they have sacrificed so that their children can have a better life. That is the reason why many people come here and are willing to endure all the prejudice and hatred that is spewed at them. They love their children as much as you love yours. And they want them to have better opportunities than they had. Their stories are really not so different from any other immigrant group to America. We all have stories...you do and so do I. I’d like to know yours, if you are willing to share something about yourself with me. Whatever you care to share...I respect your privacy. I will be happy to answer any question you have of me, too - that is, if you’re interested. This is just an attempt for both of us to see each other in human terms. But I have to tell you that it's hard for me when I hear people spewing hatred. We both have strong feelings on this issue, so that's why I'm willing to make the effort. I have also seen how cruel and unwelcoming people can be towards undocumented immigrants. And always, I am ashamed when I see this. America is better that that. Almost every new immigrant group to this country has been treated as if they didn’t belong...as if they had no right to be here. I'm sure your ancesters were treated similarly. So I have to tell you, Pat…undocumented immigrants are my heroes for their courage and dignity, even in the face of the worst oppression. Some of the warmest, kindest, most generous people I've ever met are undocumented Latino immigrants. So, I would like to see people treat them the way you and I would like to be treated – as human beings deserving of respect. This is why I’m willing to reach out to you, too, in hopes of seeing your humanity – that is, if you care to share that side of yourself. I would genuinely like to understand where you’re coming from.

Analisa

Hran said...

Dee,

"I find many of your admitted White Nationalist views unconscionable ..."

I wouldn't say it's "unconscionable" to preserve and defend one's ethnic group. Suppose I were Navajo and wanted to keep non-Navajos from moving to the Navajo Nation lands in Arizona. Would that be "unconscionable"?

Consider this hypothetical situation. We make everyone in the Navajo Nation adopt Swedish babies instead of having their own. After 80 years or so there is no genetic trace of Navajos left. However, the Swedish children (now grown and having their own kids) still live on the lands in Arizona, speak Navajo, practice traditional Navajo weaving, and have all the spoken and unspoken cultural tribal traits that can be learned.

Question: Is it still a "Navajo" Nation? Does the "Navajo" tribe still exist? Would we call them Native Americans?

Hran said...

Analisa,

What you fail to understand is, one can be sympathetic to the third world masses but still want to maintain one's own nation. I probably know a more diverse group of foreigners than you do. I have no problem with them personally. What we want is our own country to live in. As a nation, we cannot just open the door and let every poor person in the world come in. Of course we don't blame them for trying: but the U.S. is not just an economic zone for hard working immigrants.

But your rhetoric reveals a conundrum: If the immigrants are so hard working, thrifty, law-abiding, and so on, why are their home countries so poor? A whole country full of such paragons should have a higher standard of living than the U.S. No?

patriot said...

analisa, I know of someone who constantly berates white people and holds them responsible for the past and constantly lives in the past. You came in here attacking me personally for my immigration views. You sounded exactly like someone else I have dealt with in another forum who does that. But it matters not who you are really or if you are that person or not. You had no right to come in here and do that! Dee claims she wants civility in this forum and yet you showed not one ounce of it towards me and you just continued to do that yet again in your above post. Where is dee to tell you not to call me a bigot and other nasty names? Where are you dee? Why did you single me out for your hatefullness? There are others in here that have expressed the same views that I have and yet not one word to them. Another thing that made me suspicious of you.

You can stick your olive branch where the sun don't shine after the nasty insinuations and false accusations you have made of me for a brand new member in here. Very suspicious, don't you think?

So you are an ESL teacher and you think the "undocumented immigrants" are brave heroes?

Obviously you are benefitting from having all of these illegals here being an ESL teacher and all. I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were a construction worker, a drywaller, painter, etc., who has lost their job or seen their wages depressed, or a business owner who has gone out of business because they could not compete with other businesses who were using illegals??

Since the people in Asia and Africa are MUCH POORER than Mexicans, then they should be given priority into this country if that is going to be our criteria for immigration! I wonder if you realize that our immigration policies are set for the benefit of our own country and not the convenience of those seeking to immigrate!

People like you like to feel morally superior about what great "humanitarians" you are. But you could care less about your own fellow Americans or what these illegals are doing to this country.

You should have to live in a gang infested area or in one of these neighborhoods that have completely deteriorated due to illegal immigration. I'm sick and tired of you phoney do-gooders and your "holier-than-thou" attitudes.

I don't hate anyone but no one has the right to enter our country illegally and take up residence and or take jobs without the necessary papers to do so, no matter what their personal plight is. Those who think like you will always blame this country and its law abiding citizens but never the illegals themselves nor their homelands for not providing for them. We can't take in the whole world's poor and that is why we have immigration laws and they are meant to be respected by citizens and immigrants alike. Now go find yourself another whipping post because it isn't going to be me anymore!

Anonymous said...

Analisa
The people I respect the most go out of their way to see the humanity in others, regardless of their status. That's how I would like to see you: in your full humanity. But I can’t lie to you, Pat. So far, the image I have of you is of a small-minded bigot (because all I’ve heard from you is your relentless hatred for undocumented peoples).


Interesting Analisa, all I have heard from you so far is a relentless hatred of Americans. You are a narrow minded racist my dear.

Tamara said...

Analisa
Anyway, here’s who I am: I am an ESL teacher…so I arrived at my own views concerning immigrants by working closely with them and by listening to their stories. I have seen just how hard immigrants work to survive and how much they have sacrificed so that their children can have a better life.


Analisa, you are entitled to your own views on immigrants. but what is missing from your sympathy is the sympathy for Americans who also work hard to survive and sacrifice for their children. You have more sympathy for illegals than you do for Americans. Are you truly an American? I can't help but question your patriotism to your own country, if indeed the U.S. IS your country. Contrary to your skewed view of fairness, in America, Americans come first! In Mexico, Mexicans (should) come first, but they don't. That is not our problem.

patriot said...

anon, you are a liar! I have never expressed any hatred towards "illegal aliens" (not undocumented as you claim) in this blog. Put up or shut up, liar!

Dee, are you going to allow this these two to continue to call me a bigot? If so, then you are being a hypocrite in your statement of wanting a civil blog. I will be waiting for you to warn them.

patriot said...

I apologize, anon. I misread your post where you were actually quoting "analisa" instead of making those hateful statements yourself.

I am still waiting however, for dee to warn her about calling me or anyone else bigots or other vile names in this blog.

Liquidmicro said...

Anon doesn't seem to have been talking to you Pat, Anon was talking to analisa.

ultima said...

easy solution -- go home

patriot said...

Sorry, typo. My sentence should have read "opposed to illegal immigration" not legal immigration.

Lisa said...

Dee,

This is your blog. If you would like to set some guidelines for all of us, I am more than happy to follow them. So far, I have been called a liar, a racist, unpatriotic, etc, etc. I have said that I don't know Pat personally, so I can't characterize him as anything - either as a racist or anything else. He doesn't know me either, so that goes for him, too. I do believe that racism is the primary hang-ups of the nativists, however - not immigrants. I don't know how to talk about this issue without bringing up the issue of racism, which is fundamentally at the heart of this problem. btw, I was born here, so I am a citizen (not that it matters). And it doesn't bother me to be told to "go away" - that's what immigrants hear every day. As a citizen, I'm able to stand up for myself, so these attacks don't bother me. It's not easy to bait me, because I will remain cool no matter what anyone has to say about me. But it would be nice if we could all treat each other with a bit more respect.

One of the great things about this country is the right to disagree - this includes the right to criticize your country (with the aim of making it better). Of all the nativists on here, I would say that hran seems the most reasonable. So I will talk to you and him, and ignore the others. Just personally, I find it nonsensical for white people to accuse nonwhites of racism. They obviously don't understand the meaning of the term which goes beyond the dictionary definition. It refers to a systematic abuse of power in which the more powerful race (politically, socially and economically) oppresses people with less power based solely on their race. That's the academic use of the term. It doesn't bother me to be called a racist, because I am understand who has the real power in this country. It has always been the white race. This does not mean I hate whites. In fact, I am half-white myself. It just means that I recognize who has true power here - namely, white people. So, for white men to whine about racism when they've never had to deal with all the things that people of color have dealt with (discrimination in jobs, housing, education and health care; lynchings; being hunted down like animals, etc) strikes me as absurd. I understand what their real fear is, namely, that the white race is being supplanted by others. Now, maybe it's true that not all nativists are afraid of other races taking over. But if you listen to some of the commentators on talk radio, you hear this constant drumbeat of fear. But it's misplaced, because studies show that every immigrant group comes to embrace American values more or less. It usually happens within a generation or so.

Still, I believe from the way some folks on this board have attacked me over the issue of my status, that this fear is alive and well in this forum. And racism is at the root of this fear. You simply can't talk about the issue of immigration without some reference to racism. However, I am not calling anyone in particular a racist. But if you wish to call me a racist, it doesn't bother me. I'm looking at people casting the aspersion, and laughing to myself. I'm quite calm about it, because it would be foolish to get upset. As any good debater knows, when you get angry, you've already lost your argument. When you're only capable of heated emotion, you're no longer arguing from a place of reason. So I intend to keep my cool.

So, Dee, if you would like to give me and the others some guidelines to follow -- a way to talk about these issues without getting personal -- I am happy to respect your rules. I hope the others will do the same. And that we can all go forward with mutual respect.

Thank you,
Analisa

hran said...

Analisa,

"It refers to a systematic abuse of power in which the more powerful race (politically, socially and economically) oppresses people with less power based solely on their race."

But what if a black person attacks a white person solely because he hates whites? There is no institutional racism here, but surely, this would be "racist" wouldn't it?

What you're saying implies that no matter what they do or believe, Hispanics and blacks cannot be racist.

Consider Jeremiah Wright and his contention that whites created HIV as biological warfare against blacks: this is an insane statement meant only to vilify whites. Falsehoods like these create hatred for whites and ultimately justify violence against them. It is the same process as seen in antisemitism with the notion of the Elders of Zion, the blood libel, and so on. In the case of antisemitism, we recognize it as racist, so why not in anti-white rhetoric?

Analisa said...

Hran,

You said: "But what if a black person attacks a white person solely because he hates whites? There is no institutional racism here, but surely, this would be "racist" wouldn't it?"

I would call that a form of bigotry, but it is not a form of institutional racism. Certainly, it is wrong to attack anyone based solely on their race.

I also want to response to your other comment: "Consider Jeremiah Wright and his contention that whites created HIV as biological warfare against blacks: this is an insane statement meant only to vilify whites. Falsehoods like these create hatred for whites and ultimately justify violence against them."

It's very interesting that you raise this issue. I would say it is more often the case that undocumented immigrants are accused of spreading diseases (if you listen to Lou Dobbs and his ilk). I agree with you completely that falsehoods like these create hatred against other groups and ultimately justify violence against them. It is more often the case that immigrants and people of color are the victims of these attacks.

Thank you for your civility, Hran. I haven't heard you call anyone names.

Analisa

Analisa said...

correction: these falsehoods ultimately allow bigots to justify their violence against other groups (it doesn't justify it).

Dee said...

Analisa,
Sorry I havent been here since yesterday. I am reading them now. No name calling is allowed.
Pat stepped out of bounds by calling you names.

Please stay and continue to participate.

Dee said...

Pat,
Do not call names as you did, otherwise your comments will be deleted!
Analisa quoted a song by Bob Dylan.

hran said...

Analisa,

I realize vilification of blacks and Hispanics is bad, and we have to watch out for it.

But let me ask you this. How can America maintain its identity with the current unregulated influx of immigrants?

I don't see how it is possible. With things as they are headed now, I see America becoming an overpopulated, mostly non-white country with an ever-shrinking percentage of whites. This essentially means the end of my ethnic group.

So, how do we defend our right to exist without being "racist"?

patriot said...

By the way analisa, I definately know who you really are now. There is only one other person I can think of that fits you to a tee with your white race-bashing and lies about what people actually say in here and demonizing anyone opposed to illegal immigration. You could have at least made a better attempt to hide your true identity. I am sure that liquidmicro knows who you really are also. Your posts are a dead give-away.

patriot said...

Are you also going to delete analisa's posts where she called me a bigot FIRST or are you going to be a hypocrite, dee???????????

Dee said...

Hran,
Most ANTIs and PROs agree with me. You, admittedly, want to live in a White Only country.
This type of thinking is, in fact, "unconscionable". We Americans will always have a variety of ethnicities and races in our country. To DEPORT All citizens "other than white" is unconscionable and will NEVER EVER happen!


Hran...
What we want is our own country to live in.

Analisa said...

Analisa,

Thank you, Dee. I went back and read the early comments. I did say that Pat was being racist by implying that undocumented people are criminals (his first comment). I believe that's a form of demonization people. So, I was responding to that. It also distresses me when I hear human beings called "illegal" and "aliens." I realize this is pretty common, but it does strike me as a bigoted way to refer to human beings. However, I will refrain from calling anyone a "racist" in the future. I would like to see some civility towards undocumented peoples in the rhetoric we use to refer to them. That is my main concern.

Thank you,
Analisa

Dee said...

Pat,
I was with family since yesterday. I just logged in tonight.

Go back and re read Analisas comments. She is talking hypothetically, with enthusiasm, passion and is painting a picture for us of her views. Just re read her words. No attacks. Scenarios. Read her words, "tempted to laugh" "how I would like to see you." Quoting Dylan.

Stop being so sensitive.



Pat said....
Where is dee to tell you not to call me a bigot and other nasty names? Where are you dee?

hran said...

"To DEPORT All citizens "other than white" is unconscionable and will NEVER EVER happen!"

lol ...

OK. But please, what about my Navajo scenario? Can you see what I'm getting at?

Liquidmicro said...

Welcome to the debate analisa. First, if you wish to debate "Illegal Aliens", then call them what they are, honesty is the best policy otherwise you are being intellectually dishonest with not just us but yourself. I encourage you to read through more threads vs just this one. "Racial Profiling: ICE RAID Stormtroopers Bust into Citizen Latino Grandmother´s Home Brandishing Guns and Grenades! LATINOs MUST VOTE CHANGE in 2008!" as it touches on many subjects to include law. I think most of your argument towards Pat is that he at times seems to come off a bit harsh, but that comes from arguing for awhile, and Dee being dismissive of many arguments, she always repeats the same rhetoric. Robles is fairly new here and has shown some good arguments made some decent points, in the end we may agree to disagree, but hopefully we all walk away with a better understanding.

You seem to think it is all about 'racism' when it has nothing at all to do with it. Our visa laws were put in place for the protection of the citizens of this country and for the protection of the foreigners wishing to become one of us, not the other way around. There is a process for coming here, we do not allow economic refugees for reasons unless they come through the line. Your anger towards our country might better be focused on the countries of origin of the "Illegal Aliens" since it is there Governments allowing the economic decline of them.

You seem to be more a humanitarian then anything, for that I commend you, but don't forget about the humanity our homeless need or our poor here in the USA. Our citizens should come first. If you feel so deeply about foreigners, why not go to their countries and volunteer your time to help them there?

Dialogue between others is good, but do learn from it, sometimes to you have to learn others personalities and take that with a pinch of salt.

And Dee, no most don't agree with you, some might but not most. This country was founded by 'white' and should be able to retain a 'white' majority as it deems fit. I've asked you before about abortion, you have never answered it, do you agree with Roe v Wade? Becareful its a trick question!!

Dee said...

Pat,
Small businesses hire the illegal immigrants so they can underbid the small businesses who hire hourly workers. You should know this Pat. It is the small business owners who drive by Home Depot and pick up the day laborers. Once they find good, hard workers, they keep them under their wing and keep them doing their jobs.
Most Illegal Immigrants WORK FOR CITIZENS who take advantage of them.
I saw this recently myself when I was getting bids for some home improvement work. Happens every day!!
Another example: I know a roofing contractor who is an ANTI and says he hates "illeeeegals" yet he hires the good "illeeegals" to do the roof work.
Happens every day!


Pat said....
I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were a construction worker, a drywaller, painter, etc., who has lost their job or seen their wages depressed, or a business owner who has gone out of business because they could not compete with other businesses who were using illegals??

Alie said...

Dee, I don't recall Hran ever stating that he wanted to deport all non-whites or and have an "all-white" country to live in.

If I understand his position correctly, he would like to see a return to the traditional ethnic composition of this country (mostly white, African American descendants of slaves, and Native Americans).

I think where the "country to live in" comes in is when whites become so small of a minority, he feels they will need their own separate place to live in to avoid discrimination and racism.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Hran.

As as to analisa and Patriot: analisa is the one who came in here with guns blazing accusing him of being a racist, bigot, nativist, and of having ancestors who committed genocide against the Native Americans. I'd defend myself against that kind of rhetoric if I were him and so would you.

Analisa said...

Hran,

Thank you for being honest about your fear, Hran. In my view, "white people" are here to stay. Even if you marry someone of a different race, your genes will be passed down. Listen, I have a French father and a Brazilian mother (both American citizens). I treasure both sides of my heritage. I would not like to see either race die out. This is what America is - a beautiful, rich mix of peoples and cultures. It's what makes us great. You can protect your heritage by passing it on to your children. And by teaching them to appreciate other cultures as well. Our diverse cultural heritages is a plus, not a subtraction. White people are not going away...neither are Latinos. I think we all have something to contribute. Every culture is beautiful and unique. The amazing biodiversity on this planet is what characterizes our world. It's not something to fight against - it's something to appreciate.

Analisa

patriot said...

dee, that isn't true what you quoted Hran as saying Why are you doing this? He didn't say he wanted to live in an all white country. He just wants this country to retain its white majority along with the culture that this country was founded on. That is what he means by saying "we want our own country to live in". It doesn't mean that wants anyone else who is not white gone from this country. The outright lies in this blog is what gets me!

He wants illegal aliens deported and so do I, no matter what their ethnic makeup is. And there is nothing anymore wrong with whites wanting to retain their race and cultural makeup in this country anymore than Mexican-Mestizos wanting to retain their majority and cultural dominance in their country. Can't we have some honesty in this blog for once and stop telling lies about others?

Hran said...

"This country was founded by 'white' and should be able to retain a 'white' majority as it deems fit."

Dee, can you agree or disagree with liquidmicro in this statement? Just choose one:

1. We have a right to maintain a the traditional ethnic composition of the U.S.

2. We have no right to maintain the traditional ethnic composition of the U.S.

P.S.

Please, don't try to say the "traditional composition" of the U.S. is something like 60% Hispanic, 20% Asian, and the rest white and black.

patriot said...

You are lying again, analisa! I did not say that ALL illegal aliens are criminals as in felons. They are all guilty of the crime of entering our couuntry illegally and many are guilty of the crime of identity theft but that is ALL I said! Stop your lies! I never said what you are claiming I said!

patriot said...

And just because you think it "bigoted" to call those in our country without papers as illegal aliens (what our government classifies them), doesn't make it so because YOU SAY SO! Calling someone a bigot or a racist for that is horrible! How dare you make such a statement when we Americans just call them the same that our government does!

Alie said...

Dee, you are absolutely correct that greedy and unscrupulous employers have been hiring illegals.

That is one of the most valid arguments that the pro-illegals have in my opinion.

That does not absolve the illegals culpability, though, in coming here illegally. Surely they know when they cross the border illegally or overstay their visas, that when they are caught the penalty is deportation.

It is true that some corrupt companies were recruiting illegals, but these people also knew that they were circumventing the immigration laws by coming here.

The way I look at it, they kind of rolled the dice and took a chance that they would be able to work here and not get caught.

And of course our government was looking the other way while this was all going on.

So there are three parties to blame: the employers of the illegals, the illegals themselves, and our crappy government. Gee I can't wait to give the government even more power than it has now as efficient and full of integrity it is.

Let's say we do grant amnesty to this latest batch of illegals. Why would this time be any different than the last time? Can you guarantee that we will not be sitting here 10 or 15 years from now without 20 more illegals and their supporters demanding YET ANOTHER amnesty? Can you? Because I'm not signing onto any kind of legalization for illegals if there is not a bulletproof mechanism in place to insure that this does not happen again. And I simply do not see our government as serious about stopping this. Too many special interests stand to gain from continuing this situation.

patriot said...

If you want to play that game, dee, if I call someone a racist or a bigot in here, I will use the same excuse, ok? And don't you dare warn me about it either.

Funny how I have been a member of this blog for months and you show me no respect but a new member who just happens to agree with your biased views not only gains your respect immediately but you allow her to attack me and make excuses for her blatant uncivility of which you claim you want in here. Disgusting! I know you know who she is dee and that is why you are defending her. I ask that you play fair and you didn't on this one!

So someone calls me a racist and bigot and "I am being sensitive"? Who the hell wouldn't be, especially since I am neither.

Dee said...

Tamara,
Analisa did not say anything ANTI American. She is voicing her concern for the mistreatment of those sent to Detention Centers or caught up in Ice Raids.
Questioning Patriotism is a Tired Old ANTI and Republican trick. You should not be using it.
We ARE Americans and We love our USA! As with the Civil Rights Movement, we are looking to CHANGE our country for the better! We are Humanitarian and We believe that ALL men and women are created Equal!


Tamara said...
You have more sympathy for illegals than you do for Americans. Are you truly an American? I can't help but question your patriotism to your own country, if indeed the U.S. IS your country. Contrary to your skewed view of fairness, in America, Americans come first! In Mexico, Mexicans (should) come first, but they don't. That is not our problem.

Dee said...

Pat,
STOP Calling People Names!!



patriot said...
anon, you are a liar!

patriot said...

Why doesn't it bother you dee that she came in here bashing the white race and you are married to a white man and have half-white kids?
She claimed that whites are racist in general no matter that we are 50 years away from the Civil Rights Era and that non-whites can't be racists.

Dee said...

Anon,
I deleted your name calling comment. You are not allowed to call people names or use profanity here! You know better than that!

Hran said...

Analisa,

"This is what America is - a beautiful, rich mix of peoples and cultures."

Dee has said similar things. It seems to boil down to a disagreement about what America is. Really, until 1965, there was the white man, the black man and the red man. That was the ethnic identity of America. Now, of course, things have radically changed.

"White people are not going away ... neither are Latinos."

But the Latino population is rising fast and the white population is falling (as a percentage). In a Democracy this means that Latino interests (which includes more Latino immigration) will prevail. Do you agree?

Dee said...

Analisa,
I agree. They did gang up on you.
See what happens when I take a day off?
Oh well. Don´t worry! I understand what you were saying. We usually dialogue better in here.
I am glad you are toughing it out. Please stay with us!


Analisa said..
Still, I believe from the way some folks on this board have attacked me over the issue of my status, that this fear is alive and well in this forum. And racism is at the root of this fear. You simply can't talk about the issue of immigration without some reference to racism.

Alie said...

I don't know about anyone else on here, but MY ancestors did not commit "genocide" against anyone.

And while I'm at it, this entire hemisphere was settled by Europeans. The French/English in Canada, English in the U.S., Spanish/Portuguese in Mexico/Central/South America. The Spanish deciminated the indigenous in Mexico/Central/South American.

But, somehow, only the U.S. is not supposed to enforce its immigration laws. Every country in this hemisphere is comprised of immigrants to those countries in addition to their "indigenous" populations.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why it is only the U.S. that is supposed to ignore immigration laws due to past history when none of the other countries are expected to do so.

Someone want to explain that hypocrisy?

patriot said...

Dee, what the hell is wrong with you? I don't call anyone a liar unless they lie about me in here. Are you saying that I am not allowed to defend myself? Why are you sticking up for the initial attacker?

If you would have read all of my posts, you would have seen that I apologized to anon as he/she didn't actually attack me. He/she was quoting analisa and I read it wrong. But I stand by my remark that analisa lied about me several times in here already.

patriot said...

Are you also going to delete analisa's remarks calling me a bigot and a racist among other vile things, dee? Are you going to play fair? If not, I am out of here! SHE STARTED IT! What part of that don't you understand?

Dee said...

Hran,
Jeremiah Wright did not make this up. Aren´t you familiar with the OPV AIDS Hypothesis? It has been widely reported and there have been several HBO specials and a few movies about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPV_AIDS_hypothesis

The oral polio vaccine (OPV) AIDS hypothesis argues that the AIDS pandemic originated from live polio vaccines prepared in chimpanzee tissue cultures and then ADMINISTERED to up to one million AFRICANS between 1957 and 1960 in experimental mass vaccination campaigns.



Hran said...
Consider Jeremiah Wright and his contention that whites created HIV as biological warfare against blacks: this is an insane statement meant only to vilify whites.

patriot said...

Gang up on HER? You have really lost it, dee. Didn't you read her first post where she came in here guns ablazing calling whites vile names and attacking me personally? What is wrong with your sense of fair play. SHE STARTED IT and you are definding HER? Oh, my God!

Alie said...

Analisa, this "racism" chage is just a bunch of horse pucky!

If Russia was where Mexico is and Russians were streaming in here illegally by the millions, we'd be just as worked up about it!

In Europe, illegals from Romania are inundating Italy and the Italians are up in arms over it.

In the UK, there are tons of illegals from Eastern Europe and the Brits are demanding that something by done about it.

Every country wants their sovereignty respected. Immigration laws are there for a reason; they are there to protect the workers of the host country and the immigrant. They are also there to insure that potential immigrants undergo criminal background and medical screenings. And last by not least, they are there to insure that the number of immigrants do not overwhem the host country's ability to integrate the newcomers and also that they do not overwhelm infrastructure, schools, hospitals, and social services.

All countries have immigration laws and enforce them. Mexico enforces theirs very stricly; does that make Mexicans racist also? I don't think so.

This country allows more legal immigration every year than any other country in the world. We are also the most diverse country in the world.

Hran said...

Alie,

"Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Hran."

I've probably said this before, but my argument is this: Whites have a fairly low fertility rate; Hispanics and other non-whites have a higher fertility rate; most of the immigrants legal and illegal coming into the U.S. are non-white; in Texas and other states, there is a very high percentage of children that are Hispanic; there is no particular reason to believe immigration restriction will become take hold in the near future (McCain and Obama are about the same on amnesty and immigration "reform"); the Latino electorate will vote in its own interests, which includes lack of border control, amnesty, and to maintain the current high level of immigration from Latin America.

Now, given those premises, there is no way that the percentage of whites will not decrease indefinitely.

Can you see a fault with my argument?

Dee said...

Alie,
My husband and I often talk about our country, Manifest Destiny, the Trail of Tears, and the old west.
He always talks about how our country was no different than any other country. The strong overtake the weak.
We all know the terror, torture and takeover endured by Native Americans. To deny this is to deny our American History.

Alie said...
I don't know about anyone else on here, but MY ancestors did not commit "genocide" against anyone.

Dee said...

Hran,
What is "the traditional ethnic composition"?

Alie said...

Dee, nobody is denying what happened to the Native Americans. But like I said, the indigenous of Mexico, Central, and South America were similarly conquered by the Spanish/Portuguese. And those countries have also experienced considerable immigration from other countries in the world in addition to their indigenous populations. Yet nobody suggests that they do not have a right to enforce their immigration laws or control the amount of immigration to their countries due to past history.

And yes, societies and countries all throughout the world throughout history have experienced war and conquest, including my ancestors. I do not hold the present day descendants of those who destroyed my ancestors' society and culture responsible. War and conquest was commonplace back in those days and did not only occur in the U.S. In fact, the Spanish had been conquered and spent 800 years under Muslim occupation before they came to the New World to conquer the Aztecs. It's an old story.

My ancestors had not even yet set foot on this land when the Indian wars were underway or when slavery was still lawful. I have no guilt over it. That does not mean that I do not acknowledge it was a part of our history.

Alie said...

Dee, nobody is denying what happened to the Native Americans. But like I said, the indigenous of Mexico, Central, and South America were similarly conquered by the Spanish/Portuguese. And those countries have also experienced considerable immigration from other countries in the world in addition to their indigenous populations. Yet nobody suggests that they do not have a right to enforce their immigration laws or control the amount of immigration to their countries due to past history.

And yes, societies and countries all throughout the world throughout history have experienced war and conquest, including my ancestors. I do not hold the present day descendants of those who destroyed my ancestors' society and culture responsible. War and conquest was commonplace back in those days and did not only occur in the U.S. In fact, the Spanish had been conquered and spent 800 years under Muslim occupation before they came to the New World to conquer the Aztecs. It's an old story.

My ancestors had not even yet set foot on this land when the Indian wars were underway or when slavery was still lawful. I have no guilt over it. That does not mean that I do not acknowledge it was a part of our history.

Alie said...

Sorry for the double post.

Dee said...

Pat,
You know what I like best about you Pat? Your passion!
I could never, ever make anyone up like you!
That is why I like you here!


Pat said...
Gang up on HER? You have really lost it, dee. Didn't you read her first post where she came in here guns ablazing calling whites vile names and attacking me personally? What is wrong with your sense of fair play. SHE STARTED IT and you are definding HER?

Hran said...

Dee,

"Jeremiah Wright did not make this up. Aren't you familiar with the OPV AIDS Hypothesis?"

The key here is that Wright claims it WAS DONE ON PURPOSE. No accident. ON PURPOSE.

The book "The River" that advances the theory does not say that whites set out to infect blacks ON PURPOSE as a form of biological warfare.

And, in any case, the oral polio vaccination hypothesis has been disproved.

There is a recent article that traces the origin of HIV to far before the vaccinations took place.

But people like Wright don't want to know the facts. They just want fodder for their anti-white rhetoric.

Dee said...

Alie,
Here is what you are missing. Our Administration and Mexico´s have partnered together to allow the illegal immigrants to come here and accumulate in numbers to 12M. It is called the Global Economy and Multi National Corporations.

Alie said...
Every country wants their sovereignty respected.

Hran said...

Dee,

"We all know the terror, torture and takeover endured by Native Americans."

Please, can we have a little balance here? The Indians did their share of killing of whites. We fought wars. The Indians WON MOST OF THE BATTLES. They kicked ass, OK? Furthermore, when they weren't killing whites, they were making war on each other.

Dee said...

Hran,
Here is where I find fault with your argument. Your definition of "white."
At the beginning of the 20th century Italians were considered non-white. Now you include them.
Latinos come in a variety of colors, including white. Do you inlcude them?
Your term "white" is a roving target. What about those who are of mixed race who look "white" like my children? What about Obama? I could go on and on.



Hran said...
Now, given those premises, there is no way that the percentage of whites will not decrease indefinitely.

Can you see a fault with my argument?

patriot said...

If you like me so much in here dee, then why are you warning me for defending myself against someone telling lies about me in here and calling me names without even one warning to that person? Answer the question dee or I am out of here!

Hran said...

Dee:

"What is "the traditional ethnic composition"?"

About 85% white, 15% black (former slaves), about 4% Hispanic confined to regions in the southwest, like New Mexico and Texas.

Alie said...

Analisa came here accusing patriot's ancestors of committing genocide against the Native Americans. I was responding that MY ancestors committed genocide against no one.

Let's be clear: what people who hold to analisa's world view do is apply collective guilt to every white person living in this country in the year 2008 for past historical events. IOW, even a white person who immigrated here five years ago is held to the same "guilt" standards as those who actually were involved in these events centuries ago. I am saying that I PERSONALY REJECT ANY COLLECTIVE GUILT. I am responsible ONLY for my own actions, not the actions of people long dead. And for that matter, as I said, my ancestors had not even set foot on this land when these events occurred. My own ancestors experienced oppression and war in their own native lands and faced discrimination when they came here. So people like analisa should be more circumspect when throwing out the "your ancestors committed genocide" accusation.

patriot said...

dee, and don't come back making excuses for this analisa's vile behavior and statements in here either. I will say bye so damned fast your head will spin! I am not tolerating this biasness anymore! You defend someone new who just walked right in here on the attack against your regular bloggers in here? I will be waiting. We just may be saying adios depending on your answer.

Hran said...

Dee,

"Here is where I find fault with your argument. Your definition of white."

OK. By white I mean a person whose ancestors (100% of them) were indigenous to Europe. This includes people from Italy, Spain, Ireland, etc. For instance, Argentina is 90 to 97% white.

Anonymous said...

I apologize, anon. I misread your post where you were actually quoting "analisa" instead of making those hateful statements yourself.

Not a problem patriot. I realized you had misread. I am posting this again as for some reason Dee deleted my first post to you regarding this.

Dee said...

Pat,
I like you in here because you offer a different view than others.
I like all of my ANTI commenters coming here. You help me understand your side and you also bolster my PRO convictions.
Each of my ANTI commenters is unique.
ANTIs here:
1. Liquid is the small business owner.
2. Ultima is the professor.
3. Hran the White Nationalist.
4. Alie the student.
5. Arizonian is the 30ish Libertarian.
6. Patriot the angry senior every man next door.
7. Angry Anonymous lives on the edge, most likely KKK but likes to visit us and restrains him-herself so they can participate.

Pat, admit it. You like it here. It is different here. You are famous here. You can go if you want, but it is more interesting with you here.
I ask you to go back and read the posts. You were in fact calling names. Analisa, as I said, was speaking in hyperbole. She is, afterall, a teacher.



patriot said...
If you like me so much in here dee, then why are you warning me for defending myself against someone telling lies about me in here and calling me names without even one warning to that person? Answer the question dee or I am out of here!

October 11, 2008 10:51 PM

Dee said...

Hran,
Given that view, the 1950s pre civil rights view, how would you propose going back to that level?



Hran said...
Dee:

"What is "the traditional ethnic composition"?"

About 85% white, 15% black (former slaves), about 4% Hispanic confined to regions in the southwest, like New Mexico and Texas.

October 11, 2008 10:52 PM

Dee said...

Alie,
First, the words Analisa started out with were Pat calling me a "so-called loyal citizen" and his constant demonization of undocumented workers. She said, "We are talking about HUMAN BEINGS here."
I agree with her.
I also brush off Pats constant swipes at me as being "just Pat."
I don´t take them personally but I can understand how some viewers would take them as a slight.
Also the 12M are, in fact, Human Beings, and they are NOT the same as hardened criminals. Most of us have already acknowledged this.

Regarding Native Americans and how World History has told us, in Nation Building, Might makes Right. No one disputes this or the atrocities committed by those building this country.

What Analisa is saying we know this. We cannot pretend it didnt happen. About the 12M she said, "these are people who have come to this country looking for the same opportunities for a decent life that attracted our ancestors." This IS TRUE! And she was saying the Native Americans felt about the Europeans the same way the ANTIs feel today. She was drawing the relationship.

Then she said, "the nativists are picking on the most vulnerable people simply because they can get away with it." And again, I agree. Many on your side do pick on and target not only the illegal immigrants but all Latinos (e.g. Racial Profiling, Suppression Sweeps, MMs at Day Labor sites, etc.)

Yet most of the ANTIs here are so sensitive that they cannot see the points she is making. That is the problem.



Alie said..
I PERSONALY REJECT ANY COLLECTIVE GUILT. I am responsible ONLY for my own actions, not the actions of people long dead.

Anonymous said...

Dee
I ask you to go back and read the posts. You were in fact calling names. Analisa, as I said, was speaking in hyperbole. She is, afterall, a teacher.

Yes and she is an extraordinary teacher too. I believe she lives here in New Mexico.

hran said...

"Given that view, the 1950s pre civil rights view, how would you propose going back to that level?"

You got me there, I have no idea. Forced repatriation would be impossible, of course.

But you still didn't respond to my Navajo comparison. At least you should admit that, if we do nothing, white people will vanish from North American. My ethnic group will be gone. It's clear to me: isn't it clear to you? Or do you care?

alie said...

Analisa said to Patriot:

"Just because you are descended from ruthless ancestors who stole from the natives and committed genocide doesn't make you 'legal' in any sense of the term. But you seem to think you are somehow privileged - that you have a right to be mean-spirited and hateful, patriot. I beg to disagree."

Telling someone they are descended from "ruthless ancestors who "stole" from the natives and committed "genocide" is not an insult? What evidence can analisa provide that proves that patriot or anyone else on this blog is descended from "ruthless ancestors who committed genocide?" You call it hyperbole. That's a new one.

My ancestors came here legally in accordance with the laws which were in place at the time of their arrival. Most likely so did Patriot's.

Anyhow, I still stand by the point that I made that people who have analisa's mindset are applying a collective guilt to an entire people, based upon their race. My ancestors were not even here in those days and committed NO GENOCIDE AGAINST ANYONE, nor "stole" anything from anyone. Therefore, I am responsible for nothing that was done by people long dead.

Nobody is denying these events occurred and are part of our history. I said this before. Like Hran pointed out, the Native Americans slaughtered their share of settlers and when they weren't killing them they were waging war on each other. So let's just stop with trying to use the past to justify the illegal entry of foreign nationals into our country in the 21st century, please. Let's keep this in the realm of rational thought and deal with present-day issues.

Again, wars have been waged over land and resources since the beginning of time. And like you said, this country was no different. We cannot apply a
15th, or 18th century ethos to the 21st century.

Again, every country in this hemisphere was settled by Europeans, including Mexico/Central/South America. These countries are also "nations of immigrants" since they have immigrants from all over the world, in addition to their "indigenous" population.

But fot some reason, there is never any question that they have the right to set and enforce immigration laws which benefit their countries.

Now I think I have made myself abundantly clear on this subject and will not repeat it again.

hran said...

Alie,

And of course, the image of whites as ruthless perpetrators of genocide, which is the common fare these days, is a specimen of anti-white rhetoric, not unlike the antisemitic rhetoric in Europe before WWII. I've never heard Dee admit that anti-white ideology is a problem. Rather, our future is just a happy multi-ethnic paradise, full of flowers, bunnies, and a rich pageant of cultures and ethnic groups, living in harmony.

patriot said...

I re-read analisa's posts and she not only lied about me but she resorted to name calling also, dee. Hyperbole, my behind! I am giving you 24 hours to apologize to me for attacking me for defending myself and calling analisa the liar that she is and for you to warn her that you will not allow name calling and lying in here. If you don't concur, you won't see me again in this blog, ever! It is your choice, dee. 24 HOURS AND I AM DONE, DEE!!!

Alie said...

Hran, there is quite a bit of anti-white rhetoric circulating today. But as I mentioned to you in another thread (or if it was earlier in this one, I can't remember), much of this anti-white, anti-Western indoctrination of non-whites (and whites alike) is coming from white Socialists within our own country.

The Bill Ayers and Ward Churchill's have done much to foment anti-white sentiment. These guys hate our Capitalistic country and seek to use the resentment and anger of minorities to overturn the system. But whatever the reason, my feeling is that I would rather have more Michael Steele's and Bobby Jindal's than a country full of Bill Ayers and other white Socialists. Am I wrong in my logic? I suppose as a WN, you would disagree. But I think you have to admit I have a point.

Of course, you could make the argument that without so many non-whites to manipulate into anti-white hostility, these white Socialists would be of no consequence.

I'd really like to know your thoughts on this.

patriot said...

A teacher of all people should have learned respect and civility, so there was no excuse for her behavior, dee. Is this what you call hyperbole?

Quote analisa's lies and insults:

Lie #1...Patriot, you are descended from ruthless ancestors who stole from the natives and committed genocide and you are an illegal alien.

Lie #2...Patriot,you are a mean-spirited and hateful bully. (also an insult).

Lie #3...Patriot, you and those like you have a penchant for violence.

Lie #4...Patriot, you and those like you don't like anyone "differnt".

Lie #5....Patriot,you and those like you are racist haters. You have ugliness in your heart and a disgrace to us all. (also an insult).

Lie #6...Patriot, you are a small-minded bigot. (also an insult).

Lie #7....Patriot, all I have heard from you is relentless hatred for the "undocumented". THAT IS THE BIGGEST LIE OF THEM ALL THAT SHE ACCUSED ME OF!!!

Lie #8...Patriot, non-whites can't be racist, only whites can be.

Lie #9...Patriot, you don't want illegal aliens to be treated as human beings.

Lie #10...Patriot, you imply that ALL illegal aliens are criminals ( I only said that that they crossed our borders illegally and it is against our immigration laws and that many do use fake I.D. to work which IS a crime. I never said that most were guilty of rape, murde or any other heinous crime).


Have I made my case good enough for you yet, dee? Or are you still going to stick up for this person rather than warn her of about all of those insults and lies about me in here? I had the right to call her a liar because that is what she is! You chastized me for defending myself and not a word to her?

As I said, you have 24 hours to apologize to me and to chastize her instead. If you think I am kidding, TRY ME! Lets see if dee is really about fair play and civility in here, shall we?

Dee said...

Anon,
Please. Stop demonizing Analisa.
I am extraordinary, you are too. So be it!
Let us ALL be civil!



Anonymous said...
Yes and she is an extraordinary teacher too. I believe she lives here in New Mexico.

Dee said...

Hran,
I believe you are more than slightly off kilter.
I believe the term "white" is a roving target.
In the early 1900s, Italians and Germans were considered less than White, hence the Immigration Act of 1924.
Now you consider Italians, Germans, Jews, Arab Americans and light skinned Latinos as White.

Yet someone like me, intelligent, brown skinned, 200 year American, you consider inferior, less than white, less than you. I find that both incredible and stupid!


hran said...
"Given that view, the 1950s pre civil rights view, how would you propose going back to that level?"

You got me there, I have no idea. Forced repatriation would be impossible, of course.

But you still didn't respond to my Navajo comparison. At least you should admit that, if we do nothing, white people will vanish from North American. My ethnic group will be gone. It's clear to me: isn't it clear to you? Or do you care?

Dee said...

Alie,
Do you realize you are siding with a White Nationalist (Hran)? All Analisa and I are asking is, try to consider this issue from the perspective of those who risk all to come here in pursuit of the American Dream, much like your own ancestors.

Alie, deep inside, I think you are much more like me than like Hran or even Patriot. I think a few of the AA recipients you believe are less qualified than you have driven you to side with those that are not like you at all.

Search inside your own heart Alie. You know I am telling the truth!!


Alie said...
So let's just stop with trying to use the past to justify the illegal entry of foreign nationals into our country in the 21st century, please.

Dee said...

Hran,
"O, woe is me,
To have seen what I have seen, see what I see!"

According to you, there has never been racism in our country. According to you, there was never a need for the Civil Rights Movement.
According to you, our country should deport all minorities until we have a pre 1960s ratio of European Whites in our country.

According to you, we need to live under military law until we reach that ratio.

Your view is NOT shared by the majority of Americans, perhaps only 1 - 3%.

Most view as I do, our nation moving towards a rich, multi cultural society, filled with educated, humanitarian Americans.


hran said...
Alie,
And of course, the image of whites as ruthless perpetrators of genocide, which is the common fare these days, is a specimen of anti-white rhetoric, not unlike the antisemitic rhetoric in Europe before WWII. I've never heard Dee admit that anti-white ideology is a problem. Rather, our future is just a happy multi-ethnic paradise, full of flowers, bunnies, and a rich pageant of cultures and ethnic groups, living in harmony.

October 12, 2008 4:41 PM

Dee said...

Pat,
Do Not threaten me.
As I said, I like you here because you represent a unique group and I could not possibly make up anyone like you!
However, ALL of us will abide by the rules of this forum. We will be civil. We will not call each other names.
Analisa did speak in hyperbole and she did not abuse you.
I like you here, but if you choose to leave, so be it. Leave if you must but I will say, the door is always open to you. You are so sensitive lately. Try to calm down for your own sake. This is, after all, a discussion forum!

patriot said...
I re-read analisa's posts and she not only lied about me but she resorted to name calling also, dee. Hyperbole, my behind! I am giving you 24 hours to apologize to me for attacking me for defending myself and calling analisa the liar that she is and for you to warn her that you will not allow name calling and lying in here. If you don't concur, you won't see me again in this blog, ever! It is your choice, dee. 24 HOURS AND I AM DONE, DEE!!!

October 12, 2008 5:28 PM

ultima said...

What's puzzling is why wasn't number detained 777?

ultima said...

What's puzzling is why wasn't number detained 777?

ultima said...

"The Detention Center the detainees are going to is not listed in any article I could find on the web . Why not? I suspect they will be sent to another crony owned private prison. Why isn´t the name being reported as in other cases?"

Who cares? Whatever detention center is used, Dee will call it "another crony-owned private prison". So the name of the place is irrelevant.

ultima said...

There are too many in this world like Analise who have no appreciation for the broader problems of excessive legal immigration and the illegal alien presence in our country. That old saw about the Indians has no traction today because it does not represent a rationale for accepting illegal aliens on humanitarian grounds. How about those who can't find work at adequate wages because these poor aliens will work for a pittance while living 11 to the trailor house? Perhaps she should talk to a few of the former, especially now that we are in a major recession.

Those who see no reason for secure borders and a vigorous internal enforcement effort simply don't understand the problem or see it through rose colored glasses or through a thoroughly unAmerican bias.

Let me recite again all the non-nativist, non-racist, non-bigotted reasons for opposing in illegal immigration and excessive legal immigration. First and foremost is my oft repeated argument, never refuted, that the limit of finite natural resources per capita as population grows without bounds is zero. So the question simply becomes one of how much farther down that road should any rational person want to go. I say "no mas"!

Second, there is the rule of law which is the foundation of all civilized societies. Some blithely ignor that fundamental fact almost as if they would prefer to live in lawless society which we are rapidly becoming. Phoenix has become the kidnap capital of the U.S.. I believe this is an export direct from Mexico where kidnappings have become a lucrative profession, especially in Mexico city and the border towns. I think LA is losing the fight with gangs, some of which represent the worst elements from third world countries, especially Latin America.

If one values our standard of living and quality of life, there is no way that one can be a rational advocate of humanitarianism with regard to Mexico where the preponderance of immigration legal and illegal originates. That would simply lead to an equilibrium with the living conditions in Mexico, something no one would like even the immigrants or they would not have come here in the first place.

Those who advocate for the illegals simply don't understand that they are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

As measured by the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Latin American countries in medicine, chemistry and physics,one could conclude that the Latino culture will be the downfall of the inventive and innovative genius of America. This is not to say that those who fully assimilate culturally are not as capable as anyone else of these achievements. Rather it is a simple recognition of the fact the their culture has not heretofore produced much in the way of technological achievements and that if they insist as the Latinos do that they want to retain their culture rather than adopt the culture of the more productive American culture, the result will be a slide into a permanent period of underachievement with grave consequences for everything we value related to our standard of living and quality of life.

Why is that so difficult to see? I think it is because those who fail to see are blinded by their constant need to accuse others of racism, inhumanity, bigotry and nativism. They need to spend more time thinking in terms of the longer range future and what the policies they espouse will mean for themselves and their descendents. None have and neither has the congress.

It is almost as though they prefer shortages of food, energy, natural resources and prefer more traffic congestion,pollution, extinction of species and lawlessness. Their chickens will come home to roost before the end of this century.

An elaboration of a rational platform to avoid all this is available in the notebook at my blogsite listed below here on Dee's blog.

Analisa said...

Dee,

Wow, 95 comments! Forgive me, I had to leave the computer lab early, so I am just catching up with the rest of the comments from yesterday. I have one last thing to say about this silly business with Pat. Pat was the first one to comment on this blog. And he started the discussion by questioning your loyalty as a citizen, Dee. That struck me as profoundly disrespectful. Now I am not in the habit of calling people names, as a rule. But it seems to me that this was "hitting below the belt." So I didn't mind reminding him that his ancesters were trespassers, and his own claims to legitimacy are suspect. Yes, you can steal someone's country away from them, and claim you are yourself a citizen. As the linguists' joke goes, "The difference between a dialect and a language is an army." The same is true of countries. Most countries were conquered from indigenous peoples who already resided there.
Yet, I hear such a sense of entitlement from the nativists, as if they and their ancestors were always paragons of virtue. And it is the feeling of superiority, entitlement and white privilege that I was reacting to when I made my remarks to Pat.

As for this absurdity that this is somehow a country founded by whites and for whites only, ask a real American what they think about that - that is, a Native American (the only true citizens of this country in every sense of the word). This was their land for tens of thousands of years before whites showed up. No educated person disputes this. It's right there in your seventh grade history text...please dust it off because your ignorance is showing.

And I'm sitting here listening to people talk about undocumented peoples in the most vile terms. The other day, Dee wrote a blog about an older woman - a citizen, no less - who was terrorized in her own home when ICE agents broke down the door. And you who claim to care so much about U.S. citizens, regardless of their race, couldn't spare an ounce of compassion for this woman. Was it because she was Hispanic, perhaps? Well, I think that's pretty revealing of the hateful attitudes motivating the nativists. And yes, I think those attitudes spring from a racist mentality. However, I have said that I don't know you, so I am not referring to any one in particular as a racist (although I'd be lying if I said I don't suspect that this is what motivates you). In fact, you pretty much let the cat out the bag when you start talking about the beleaguered white race. You want honesty, yes? Well, why don't you be honest? Would you vote for a black man? Let's say that large numbers of Latinos do become the majority in this country - and that every one of them is a U.S. citizen. Would you be comfortable with that? I suspect not. Many nativists hide their racism because it's not considered cool to bash people of other races anymore. They saw what happened in the South during the Civil Rights movement when the tide of public opinion turned against them. So they've become much more sophisticated and clever. But don't underestimate the American people's intelligence. Some day the children of tomorrow are going to read in their the history books about how a brown-skinned people were hunted down like dogs, just like the blacks of yesterday, and denied the most basic rights by a mean-spirited whites. And you will have to explain it to them. If it's honesty you want, that's my opinion.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said...

I don't know Pat, Analisa might be Evelyn, sure seems to think the same and Michaela pretty much puts it as she is, Maybe Analisa is an other agreeing personality.

http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2008/09/did_house_republicans_give_the_election.html#comment-83698

patriot said...

So to expect you to treat me fairly and if not I will leave is a threat to you, dee? LOL! Ok, if you can still say that everything that analisa said about me after I posted everyone of her lies and insults directed at me was nothing but hyperbole, then you made your choice. I hope every patriot who decides to stay in your blog can see you for exactly what you are, a biased, unfair hypocrite. You don't expect civility from anyone in this blog other than those who disagree with your views. I hope you grow up someday.

I am out of here for good and I won't be back under anonymous or anyone else. Enjoy your new found racist friend, analisa. Too bad you didn't value me enough as a long time member in here to show me some respect instead of being a hypocrite!

Hran, alie, liquid, ultima, it has been great knowing you. Keep up the good fight. Our country's future is at stake. Don't people who think like dee take over this country or we are doomed. So long my friends.

Liquidmicro said...

Maybe this is Analisa.

Goshen College student helps families recover after Iowa immigration raid

It would explain better her computer lab statement.

Alie said...

Dee, if that is all that analisa had said, I would not have taken exception to it. Except that she said far worse. She basically accused all whites today of having ancestors who were genocidal. And she said a lot of other nasty things. If she were an anti saying these things about pros or Latinos, I have a feeling you would have warned her to tone it down.

As far as Hran, he is only doing what you are doing. He is sticking up for his ethnic group just like you stick up for yours. I do not agree with some of what he says, but some of it has validity.

I really don't want to repatriate non-whites back to their ancestral countries. Those who came in here legally have a right to be here just like any of us who came here legally. OTOH, much of the demographic change in this country is due to illegal immigration and the resulting children born to these illegals. No country would be ok with this. I have stated my feelings on this over and over.

I am against illegal immigration. I have nothing against Latinos as a group or any other people as long as they come legally and want to blend into our culture instead of expecting us to accommodate theirs.

Yes, everyone's ancestors came here looking for a better life. But like I said, back when a lot of our ancestors came in the past there was no welfare state. There was no WIC, welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, free medical, free school breakfasts and lunches.
No, the illegals do not qualify for any of this. But their U.S.-born children DO. These benefits were not available to my ancestors when they came here. They either supported their families on their own, or they returned to their native countries. Nobody catered to them in their native language either; no American had to learn their native language to get or keep a job. This is happening to Americans now. So there are a few differences between then and now.

Analisa said...

Dee,

Thank you for sticking up for me. I deeply appreciate it. If don't want to see you lose anyone. I am willing to leave the blog, rather than have you lose someone who's been with you for a long time. But I have the feeling you've been all by yourself on here, trying to explain your views to people who have little concern for the real victims of hate. Pat appears to be leaving because he can't take a difference of opinion. He can dish it out to the most vulnerable people (the undocumented), but is too cowardly to stick around when he meets his match. And I think that liquidmicro's posting of this woman's picture is pretty frightning (and possibly illegal). It seems like they'd like to stalk me. But that's not even me...I look nothing like the woman in that picture. I've never participated in any discussion with a single nativist before this blog. Frankly, I'm getting scared.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said...

"So I didn't mind reminding him that his ancesters were trespassers, and his own claims to legitimacy are suspect."

Who are you to remind anybody?? If you knew anything, then you would realize not all 'whites' ancestors came at one time. Pats family came here through 'Legal Immigration' as set up per the US Congress. His family has trespassed no where.


"As for this absurdity that this is somehow a country founded by whites and for whites only, ask a real American what they think about that - that is, a Native American (the only true citizens of this country in every sense of the word)."

Nobody has denied the Native North American Indigenous were here during the time of expansion from Europe, our Government has to deal with them and they have all the 'Rights as American Citizens'. I am understanding yo are of the mindset that all the Indigenous of the Americas have the right to freely travel the North and South Continent. If that be the case then I question your ignorance.
"During the Pre-Columbian times, the peoples of the time were no longer nomadic peoples, they were for the most part civilized. Living and building major cities and laying claim to territories. Mesoamerica is the perfect example of it. The Indigenous of now Mexico were there, living and building in that area prior to Spanish arrival. The Indigenous of North America were living more from a nomadic lifestyle as they sometimes moved with the seasons.

Many pre-Columbian civilizations of North America established characteristics and hallmarks which included permanent or urban settlements, agriculture, civic and monumental architecture, and complex societal hierarchies.

As for proving theories of arrival (who were actually here from bloodlines), you might look to mtDNA. It supports the theory of multiple genetic founding populations migrating from Asia and from Europe. Look to Tierra del Fuego and the Luzia skeleton, or Kenewick Man in North America. Luzia being of Austalin Aboriginy and Kenewick; the skull, which some experts say appears distinctively different from the typical skull shape of modern Native Americans. These prove there where others here.

Now, if these peoples you are claiming as Indigenous to the continent were living in what is now Mexico, and have for hundreds or thousands of years, why should they then be allowed to migrate when there ancestors set down roots and set up there own territories and cities (Aztec, Mayan, Inca) where they did? Do they only do it now because it is economically feasible for them?"

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1377656&blobtype=pdf

Summary
On the basis of comprehensive RFLP analysis, it has been inferred that »97% of Native American mtDNAs belong to one of four major founding mtDNA lineages, designated
haplogroups “A”–“D.” It has been proposed that a fifth mtDNA haplogroup (haplogroup X) represents a minor founding lineage in Native Americans. Unlike
haplogroups A–D, haplogroup X is also found at low frequencies in modern European populations. To investigate the origins, diversity, and continental relationships of this haplogroup, we performed mtDNA high-resolution
RFLP and complete control region (CR) sequence analysis on 22 putative Native American haplogroup X and 14 putative European haplogroup X mtDNAs. The
results identified a consensus haplogroup X motif that
characterizes our European and Native American samples.
Among Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian
groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene–speaking Navajo. Median network analysis indicated that European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other. Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000–36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations. To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.


Now, I have Black Foot in my bloodline dating back 6 generations on my mothers side, due to my blood line then I have a right to be here from my ancestral heritage and nothing my family has done has trespassed or stolen from anybody.


You make a lot of assumptions in your arguments, your assumptions are blinding you along with your rhetoric. I suggest you learn to paint with fine detail vs painting as Dee does with a broad brush. The only person here with ignorance showing is you with your naiveness.

hran said...

Dee,

"Yet someone like me, intelligent, brown skinned, 200 year American, you consider inferior, less than white, less than you. I find that both incredible and stupid!"

I think you are thrown off by the "white nationalist" label. But, in any case, I don't consider you inferior or "less" than me. I know lots of non-whites -- I don't consider them "inferior". I just like my own ethnic group and don't want to see it annihilated. I imagine Mexicans have a sense of their own ethnic identity and don't want to lose it. Does that mean they think they are "superior" to everyone else? I don't think you're getting it.

hran said...

Dee,

"I believe the term "white" is a roving target."

In essence, you're saying the white race does not exist. Let's just establish that.

Liquidmicro said...

Stalk you?? Don't try to flatter yourself. We like to know who we are talking to, if you never participated in any discussion with a single nativist before this blog then good for you. Posting a link to someone is by no means against the law, as the internet is a public domain, learn the laws. Maybe someone else has posted with your Analisa name on other forums and blogs, but Analisa is not a common name for others to use. A quick google search of 'Analisa' brings up what I have posted, minus the immigration blog comments I found using the same 'Analisa'.

Alie said...

A teacher of all people should have learned respect and civility, so there was no excuse for her behavior, dee. Is this what you call hyperbole?

Quote analisa's lies and insults:

Lie #1...Patriot, you are descended from ruthless ancestors who stole from the natives and committed genocide and you are an illegal alien.

Lie #2...Patriot,you are a mean-spirited and hateful bully. (also an insult).

Lie #3...Patriot, you and those like you have a penchant for violence.

Lie #4...Patriot, you and those like you don't like anyone "differnt".

Lie #5....Patriot,you and those like you are racist haters. You have ugliness in your heart and a disgrace to us all. (also an insult).

Lie #6...Patriot, you are a small-minded bigot. (also an insult).

Lie #7....Patriot, all I have heard from you is relentless hatred for the "undocumented". THAT IS THE BIGGEST LIE OF THEM ALL THAT SHE ACCUSED ME OF!!!

Lie #8...Patriot, non-whites can't be racist, only whites can be.

Lie #9...Patriot, you don't want illegal aliens to be treated as human beings.

Lie #10...Patriot, you imply that ALL illegal aliens are criminals ( I only said that that they crossed our borders illegally and it is against our immigration laws and that many do use fake I.D. to work which IS a crime. I never said that most were guilty of rape, murde or any other heinous crime).


I think this is a fairly comprehensive recap of analisa's insults to patriot, dee? Are you still going to stick up for this person rather than warn her about all of those insults and lies about another poster in here? Patriot had the right to defend himself against what he felt were lies about himself. You chastized him for defending himself and not a word to her to tone down her rhetoric?

hran said...

liquidmicro,

Thanks for that link. That seems to confirm what the BBC show on the Solutrean thesis ("Stone Age Columbus") said about mtDNA.

hran said...

Patriot,
You are a strong voice for our side. Your views are not extreme; but I can see how you can be driven to distraction trying to reason with Dee. And in fact, Analisa's statements here are not just hyperbole, but anti-America; we have a right to take strong exception to them.

hran said...

Alie,

"But whatever the reason, my feeling is that I would rather have more Michael Steele's and Bobby Jindal's than a country full of Bill Ayers and other white Socialists. Am I wrong in my logic? I suppose as a WN, you would disagree. But I think you have to admit I have a point."

We're probably talking about different things. But let me clarify: you're saying that the fight is against liberal ideology alone. If we could defeat it, then the racial composition would be of little (or no?) consequence. Is that correct?

Alie said...

Hran, I am a little confused on this subject myself. I'm not saying that racial composition would be of no consequence. But I think that most of the anti-white hostility today is being fomented by the left, including white leftists/Socialists.

I think that as long as this country pursued fair policies, that without leftists to continue their endless racial agitation and race baiting, there would be minimal friction.

Dee said...

Ulty,
I care.
Because they are being sent to crony owned private prisons.
Because the conditions in these centers are deplorable.
Because the timing of these events are astounding in that at the end of the Bush Administration, he is paying back his crony friends by filling up theire privately owned prisons. We know the stays are long. Taxpayers are paying the cronies $90 a day for each person sent there. Filled up to pay the cronies just in time before leaving office!

Ultima...
Who cares? Whatever detention center is used, Dee will call it "another crony-owned private prison". So the name of the place is irrelevant.

October 12, 2008 6:52 PM

Dee said...

Ultima,
Shame on you! Your side is always making false claims about the intelligence of Hispanics! Shame..Shame..Shame! Hispanics are as intelligent as anyone else in the world. God gives all of his creatures to same talents/abilities. All we require is the education! (as Obama says)
He does not favor White vs Brown vs Black. So many of us have proven this to your side time and time again! We have given you examples, like Obama, Powell, Rice, Chavez, Borjas, hispanic inventors and many here on my forum!

I decided to check out the number of Latino Nobel Peace Prize winners in the last few years. It was a very long list. So much for your feeble attempt at discrediting Hispanic Intelligence!


1994
Juan Pablo Davila Economics
Robert A. Lopez Entomology
1995
John Martinez Nutrition
1998
Dolores Krieger Science Education
2002
Eduardo Segura Hygiene
2006
Antonio Mulet Chemistry
José Javier Benedito Chemistry
José Bon Chemistry
Carmen Rosselló Chemistry
2007
Patricia V. Agostino Aviation
Santiago A. Plano Aviation
Diego A. Golombek Aviation
Juan Manuel Toro Linguistics
Josep B. Trobalon Linguistics
Nuria Sebastian-Galles Linguistics
L. Mahadevan Physics
Enrique Cerda Villablanca Physics
2008
Astolfo Gomes de Mello Araujo Archaeology
Jose Carlos Marcelino Archaeology

Ultima said....
As measured by the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Latin American countries

Dee said...

Liquid,
All Latinos commenting on these blogs are NOT the same person.
I don´t accuse you of being Pat do I? There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of very intelligent Latinos on line!


Liquidmicro said...
I don't know Pat, Analisa might be Evelyn, sure seems to think the same and Michaela pretty much puts it as she is, Maybe Analisa is an other agreeing personality.

http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2008/09/did_house_republicans_give_the_election.html#comment-83698

October 12, 2008 7:48 PM

Anonymous said...

I Pledge right here right now. I will ask anyone who does any work on my home if he/she is here legally or subcontracts to anyone who is here illegally. I will require that they make their commitments in a written contract.


I will tell them that if I discover they are here illegally, I will inform the authorities and I will not pay them for breach of contract.

If we all did that....

Dee said...

Analisa,
Dont leave. That is their way of getting you to leave.
I have many readers that email me because the ANTIs tend to attack them.
I take it with a grain of salt.
Pat and Anon have repeatedly wanted me to stop blogging. I will not. I believe we have to voice our side! We have to be strong and share our opinions, civilly. I believe both sides can talk.

Pat will probably be back. He´s dropped off before. We will see. If he goes then so be it.

Dee said...

Analisa,
These folks wont hurt you.
I know most of them through their emails. They are fine. They just like to bully new people a bit.

Be strong! You are very intelligent and very welcome here!

Dee said...

Hran,
Actually Hran, it is you that is not getting it. Latinos are not advocating preserving their own ethnic identity. We often intermarry. I married an Irish American. My sisters and brothers have married a variety of ethnicities. You know this.
We are ALL American! We are all Humanitarian! We are intelligent! Hard Working, Pro Military and Christian.

It is WNs that want to ethnic cleanse our great USA to White Northern European. It is never going to happen!


Hran said...
I just like my own ethnic group and don't want to see it annihilated. I IMAGINE Mexicans have a sense of their own ethnic identity and don't want to lose it. Does that mean they think they are "superior" to everyone else? I don't think you're getting it.

October 12, 2008 8:58 PM

Dee said...

Alie,
No need for me to chastise Analisa. You, Pat and others have certainly mounted your attacks on her.
You know Pat continuously bashes me and feels justified. Analisa didnt realize he is just being Pat and I let his words roll off.
She is an intelligent, thoughtful commenter who is also PRO Humanitarian and PRO Immigration reform. I am glad she is here.

Dee said...

Anon,
That means every time a worker comes into your home you will ask for their citizenship papers and then have them put it in writing.

I doubt you will get any of the ANTIs in here to agree. Even if the SAY they agree, it is only lip service because they wont do it.


Anonymous said...
I Pledge right here right now. I will ask anyone who does any work on my home if he/she is here legally or subcontracts to anyone who is here illegally. I will require that they make their commitments in a written contract.


I will tell them that if I discover they are here illegally, I will inform the authorities and I will not pay them for breach of contract.

If we all did that....

October 13, 2008 11:22 AM

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
"Anon,
That means every time a worker comes into your home you will ask for their citizenship papers and then have them put it in writing.

I doubt you will get any of the ANTIs in here to agree. Even if the SAY they agree, it is only lip service because they wont do it."


Actually Dee, I do it with my business, when they call in asking for work I inform them that i use E-verify, I schedule an appointment for them to be interviewed, but they NEVER SHOW UP. And yes, as a homeowner you do have the right to ask that the employer has the correct licensing, insurance and that his employees are all verified by the means of the law an that all employees are paid through payroll verifying taxes. Ultimately the homeowner is the Overseer of the contractor.

ultima said...

"I decided to check out the number of Latino Nobel Peace Prize winners in the last few years. It was a very long list. So much for your feeble attempt at discrediting Hispanic Intelligence!"

Go back and read my post again -- carefully. No where did I attempt, feebly or otherwise, to discredit Hispanic intelligence. That word does not appear in my post so why did you feel it necessary to put your particular spin on it? Why not quote me exactly as I did you above.

I haven't checked all the Nobel prizes in chemistry, physics and medicine yet but through 2000, there was one Hispanic sounding name in chemistry, Mario Molina in 1995, shared with two other non-Hispanics. Similarly, in Physics I found only Alvarez in 1968. In Medicine and Physiology, I found none. I mentioned no other fields like economics or literature. I rest my case.

ultima said...

2001-2008: chemistry - none, physics - none, medicine - none.

See Nobel Prize archive.

Here is my exact quote:

"As measured by the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Latin American countries in medicine, chemistry and physics,one could conclude that the Latino culture will be the downfall of the inventive and innovative genius of America. This is not to say that those who fully assimilate culturally are not as capable as anyone else of these achievements. Rather it is a simple recognition of the fact the their culture has not heretofore produced much in the way of technological achievements..."

I suspect that in the list for 2000 and prior years you would find that Alvarez was fully assimilated.

Can I expect another apology or at least accurate quotations of my posts from now on?

ultima said...

"This is what America is - a beautiful, rich mix of peoples and cultures. It's what makes us great. "

Analisa, you write well and I commend you for your contributions to this blog. However, like so many of our idealistic youth, I believe you are misguided and are relying on cliches about what makes America great. What makes America great are its ideals, its departure from the old ways of nobility and subjugation of the common people, a work ethic, a continent of rich natural resources, a people of great vision and inventiveness. Diversity has little or nothing to do with it. That is the cliche I refer to.

I have one son and one daughter who will vote for Obama this year. I have another son and my wife who as well as myself will vote for a true American hero, John McCain. We have a tradition of rewarding our heroes with political office: George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Dwight Eisenhower and many others in lesser offices -- governors, senators like McCain, etc.
So you see there is no monolithic support for either candidate even in my own family. The thing I most object to is any evidence of a closed mind that is unwilling or unable to listen to and digest points of view which differ from their own particular political orthodoxy. A closed mind is a terrible thing. I pride myself in being able to listen to other points of view and give them due consideration. I believe I have an open mind for new and different ideas. Some of the folks who post here have such ideas and I have learned from them.

I do object when folks misquote me or place their own spin on my words. That is a form of dishonesty. It is so simple to quote directly and accurately that those who do otherwise must be considered suspect.

If you consider yourself to be openminded, see my blog.

ultima said...

"It is WNs that want to ethnic cleanse our great USA to White Northern European. It is never going to happen!"

Dee, as is often the case, you've got the first part of this dead wrong. While there may be those who believe that our country would be stonger and more cohesive if the Northern European culture had prevailed, there is no thought of ethnic cleansing and you know that. That idea is unadulterated nonsense and an insult to every person who descended from white Northern Europeans. I take great umbrage at your first statement but agree entirely with the second. I find it exceedingly strange that a person of your obvious intelligence can go off on these totally off the wall tangents. Why not stick to the truth, accurate quotations, and reasonable positions rather than hyperbole and ad hominem arguments?

ultima said...

"Latinos are not advocating preserving their own ethnic identity."
A recent PBS program entitled, "Latinos" which featured interviews with several prominent Latinos like Cisneros and others suggests otherwise. Still our best hope is intermarriage of the kind you indicate.

ultima said...

"Latinos are not advocating preserving their own ethnic identity."
A recent PBS program entitled, "Latinos" which featured interviews with several prominent Latinos like Cisneros and others suggests otherwise. Still our best hope is intermarriage of the kind you indicate.

ultima said...

"Because they are being sent to crony owned private prisons.
Because the conditions in these centers are deplorable."

I haven't heard Obama rail against either. I suspect if the owner are Bush's cronies, Obama will quickly replaced them with his own and it will be business as ususal.

Dee said...

Ultima,
Your quote below was in the context of why Immigration from Latin American countries is NOT a good thing. You are saying those that immigrate here from Latin countries will not achieve significant accomplishments in Medicine, Chemistry or Physics. You are inferring that those from Northern Europe (your countries of choice) are preferred since you believe they will perform well in these areas. (actually I saw high rates of Asian and Middle Eastern in those lists which tells me their Education levels are a priority in their countries)
IF this is NOT your point, what is?(IF this IS your point, I totally disagree and I say Education makes the difference!)

Ultima said..
"As measured by the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Latin American countries in medicine, chemistry and physics,one could conclude that the Latino culture will be the downfall of the inventive and innovative genius of America. This is not to say that those who fully assimilate culturally are not as capable as anyone else of these achievements. Rather it is a simple recognition of the fact the their culture has not heretofore produced much in the way of technological achievements..."

ultima said...

"And he started the discussion by questioning your loyalty as a citizen, Dee. That struck me as profoundly disrespectful."

Actually one can make a very good case that those who give precedence to illegal aliens who have allegiance to foreign governments are indeed disloyal. It may not be PC but the truth rarely is. Disloyalty is the quality of being false to one's allegiance or obligations. Do you think giving aid and sustenance to foreigners who have violated our borders is contrary to one's allegiance to this country? Do you think that anyone who favors illegal aliens over the wishes of his or her fellow citizens who insist on the rule of law and our national sovereignty is living up to his or her obligations as a citizen? Do you think anyone who takes a position contrary to the national interest is violating his or her allegiance?

I think Dee is easily convicted by her own words or loyalty has lost all meaning.

Dee said...

Ultima,
I was responding to Hran who is a self acclaimed WN (White Nationalist). I was NOT referring to anyone else.


Ultima said...
"It is WNs that want to ethnic cleanse our great USA to White Northern European. It is never going to happen!"

Dee, as is often the case, you've got the first part of this dead wrong.

ultima said...

The Bush legacy is his failure to insist on an even more stringent enforcement of immigration laws, his failure to see the merits of a stable population and the measures necessary to achieve it, his failure to see that we are on our way to a population of 600 million which will produce 6 billion more metric tons of pollutants at the present rate, his failure to see that population-driven economic growth is unsustainable, his adventures abroad in Iraq and Afghanistan, his stupid de-regulation of the banking industry, his willingness to allow democrats and their cronies to run Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into bankruptcy, his failure to propose legislation to prohibit political contributions and lobbying by FM^2, and for just being plain stupid.

ultima said...

An immigration platform for America

Liquidmicro said...

I think this just makes my day.

Arizona town rethinks immigrant stance


GUADALUPE, ARIZ. -- Six months ago, this town of 5,500 took a stand against the most powerful lawman in the state.

As Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's deputies swept through town during a controversial operation searching for illegal immigrants, Mayor Rebecca Jimenez confronted the 76-year-old sheriff and told him he wasn't wanted.

The town, founded by Yaqui Indians a century ago, became a symbol of a grass-roots rejection of Arpaio's tough anti-immigration tactics.

But now, Guadalupe is having second thoughts about how it fought the sheriff.

After the confrontation, Arpaio struck back by canceling his contract to patrol the one-square-mile town, forcing officials to search for another agency to protect Guadalupe.

Jimenez, 36, was replaced as mayor, and the city's new leaders are trying to find some way to persuade Arpaio to stay.

"This town really does need him," said Janice LaBorin, 25, a home healthcare worker. "There are too many criminals and little gangbangers here."

Plenty of people still want Arpaio out, but among some, defiance has given way to contrition.

Jimenez "took the wrong tactic," said Lupita Llamas, the owner of two Mexican restaurants in a mostly empty colonnaded shopping arcade. Arpaio is "a powerful person. You have to talk to him carefully."

The rift between Guadalupe and the sheriff began the night of April 3, when Arpaio brought his anti-illegal immigrant sweep to the parking lot of the Family Dollar store.

The two-day operation was one of several Arpaio has launched across Maricopa County ostensibly to stop crime, but also to identify illegal immigrants.

Arpaio, who calls himself the "toughest sheriff in America," has taken the aggressive position that he can arrest and deport illegal immigrants even if they have committed no serious crimes.

Deputies stopped people for the slightest infractions -- a cracked windshield, broken taillight, jaywalking -- and asked whether they were in the country legally.

Residents complained that deputies were stopping anyone who looked Latino, which is basically the entire town. Guadalupe is 51% Latino and 49% Native American, according to census figures.

Helicopters buzzed overhead while Arpaio held forth before television cameras at his parking lot command post.

Jimenez confronted him there. As cameras rolled, she complained that his news release falsely stated that town officials had asked him to come to fight illegal immigration.

"You came here under false pretenses," she said.

"I came here to protect your community from crime," Arpaio replied.

As he walked off, he added, "If you don't like the way we operate, you get your own police department."

Two weeks later, Arpaio sent Jimenez a letter notifying her that he would cancel the contract because it now appeared that Guadalupe, which had been patrolled by the department for 20 years, would not let him enforce all state laws.

The county supervisors approved the cancellation late last month, giving Guadalupe six months to find another agency.

The town soon discovered that finding a replacement was not so easy. Other cities said their police budgets were too strapped to step in.

Concerns were muted at first. After all, defiance was nothing new to Guadalupe. For more than 100 years, the town, now enveloped by the sprawl of Phoenix, had stood on its own.

It was formed by a band of Yaqui Indians who fled persecution in Mexico to Arizona's Salt River Valley. They moved onto a 40-acre plot of land, built two white adobe churches and erected a tiny settlement of dirt lanes and adobe houses.

Guadalupe always seemed to stand out. The streets remained unpaved until the 1960s, and the town lacked a sewage system until it incorporated in the 1970s.

As the search for a replacement law enforcement agency wore on, some residents began to fret about their safety.

Jimenez, who said she never asked Arpaio to stop policing Guadalupe, was ousted from her post for reasons unrelated to the confrontation. She remains on the town council but was replaced as mayor by Frankie Montiel, who vowed not to question Arpaio.

"We cannot, as elected officials, tell another elected official how to do his job," Montiel, 27, told county supervisors last month as he asked for more time.

The town's efforts to make up has disheartened some residents.

"We shouldn't beg," said Gabe Felix, 43, a Yaqui and an Army veteran who was detained during the sweep. "We've always been a proud race. Never been beaten. Never been put in a reservation."

Ignacio Garcia, 28, who works as a police officer in a different jurisdiction, said, "I don't think they should bow down. . . . They should stick to their guns."

To buy more time, the town has sued Arpaio and the supervisors to keep the contract in place.

Arpaio said he has given the town ample time to find a replacement by warning of the cancellation in April and not giving the formal notice until September.

He said, however, that even when another agency patrols the city, his deputies will still be free to round up illegal immigrants there.

"I can still enforce the laws in Guadalupe," Arpaio said. "No one is going to say, 'You can't come into Guadalupe,' even if they have another police department."

Dee said...

That article is deplorable Liquid!
No one should bow down to the heinous sheriff!
This is like Robin Hood all over again! Robin would never have bowed down to the evil Sheriff!

Dee said...

Your saying this makes your day is very telling about you Liquid!

I thought better of you!
Oh well. I guess I was wrong about you!

Liquidmicro said...

Oh, Dee, Jimenez was removed from office due to her ignorance. Now the elected city officials are trying to get Arpaio back. Like Arpaio says, even if his contract is through, he still has the right to patrol the area and make arrests. Jimenez lost and was fired, she stays on as a city board member. I have told you many times, words matter, Jimenez used the wrong words, now she no longer holds a position of much influence.

Analisa said...

Dee,

I admire you for creating this forum for PROs and ANTI's to dialogue. I admire you tremendously for stand up to the ANTI's, practically alone, because all the PRO's have obviously been driven off this site. It didn't bother me when people called me a racist, or any other name. I didn't get riled because I was looking at the source. I didn't get angry like Pat, who behaved like a petulant child,..or say "I'm taking all my toys and going home," like Pat. I was willing to take some heat. Nor am I against whites as an ethnic group. My father is white, and I love him very much. I dont' want to see whites go away, nor Latinos. I thought I made that clear. I am half-white myself. Did anyone miss that part? When I addressed the issue of racism in this debate, I am talking about a general truth - not every single individual white person. I know quite a number of white people who think like I do, and they don't take offense when I point out the historical treatment of Native Americans in this country. Or of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans...or Black people. This is because most of the white people I know are intelligent enough to acknowledge this history. And they are often the first ones to point it out.
I have heard quite a few attacks on you, concerning your loyalty and patriotism, the intelligence of the Mexican people, to conclude that racism is alive and well in this forum. Most of the ANTI'S have made sweeping statements about undocumented immigrants. Here's an example:
"It is almost as though they prefer shortages of food, energy, natural resources and prefer more traffic congestion,pollution, extinction of species and lawlessness."
The bigotry is blatant and obvious. Now, I was willing to stick it out in this forum in spite of the attacks. But there is one thing that is absolutely unacceptable to me, and that is when people behave like bullies. When people started looking for my picture and posting that woman's picture, you are making me afraid for my safety. You have succeeded in convincing me that most of you are extremists. And for this reason I am leaving this forum. But I will continue to read your blog, Dee, because I appreciate your intelligence and your compassion. I wish I could say the same for the rest.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said...

"because all the PRO's have obviously been driven off this site."

Actually very few PRO's have ever dialogued on this site. Robles is just as new as you, he has had intelligent dialogue and understands sometimes we all agree to disagree. The difference is he came in here to dialogue, you came in here attacking, you got attacked back. If you had any modicum of intelligence you would argue points and give opinion vs attacking and calling 'whites' racist.


"This is because most of the white people I know are intelligent enough to acknowledge this history."

None in here have ever denied this history, the problem is you only go back to the point that is beneficial to your argument. What gave Mexico the right to claim lands that Spain claimed? What gave the established peoples of Central and South America the right to migrate north? I have posed many points and arguments, you have yet to argue a single one or refute any. People like you with an opinion that others opinions matter not are the problem. You can't understand how people can have a differing opinion from yours, talk about ignorant.

"The bigotry is blatant and obvious."

Bigotry, why don't you refute the points Ultima made. Is it easier to call others names vs opining a point? And you call Patriot childish, you need a good long look in the mirror.


"Now, I was willing to stick it out in this forum in spite of the attacks. But there is one thing that is absolutely unacceptable to me, and that is when people behave like bullies."

Bullies??? Prove what is being said is wrong, argue the points!!!, look at the dialogue between Robles and the rest, there were no attacks against Robles, and Robles did just fine, we all hope he sticks around. You on the other hand, until you can learn to discuss points and argue points, should stay away, your part of the overall problem, your lack of excepting anybody elses opinions will hamper you throughout the rest of your life. You refuse to listen and compromise, just go away!!

Extremists?? Your a nut job, from the loony left. A humanitarian socialist. The only extremist is you for refusing to listen and only yelling 'racist' to others who don't agree with you. Now, run and hide!!! BOO!!!!

ultima said...

""It is almost as though they prefer shortages of food, energy, natural resources and prefer more traffic congestion,pollution, extinction of species and lawlessness."
The bigotry is blatant and obvious."

Now who is being petulant and packing up to go home. You seem to have missed the first part of the quote from my post -- "It is almost as though they prefer...". You are familiar aren't you with the subjunctive of the hypothetical. I didn't say they prefer these things rather as if they did. That is a logical conclusion from their propensity to keep on coming and violating our borders recreating, as it were, the very economic and other conditions they fled their homelands to escape. Pointing out this elementary fact is not bigotry. Get out your dictionary. Bigotry is behavior or attitudes that expresse intolerance for another's race, politics, religion, etc. It has nothing to do with adhereing to the rule of law, recognizing the economic realities of overpopulation in the face of declining natural resources, environmental considerations,and many other factors unrelated to the bigotry you so casually assign to those views you either don't understand or are simply at variance with your own. I would prefer that you continue to be a contributor here because you represent a point of view that we have not seen for some time as well as some immature name-calling which is generally not tolerated except in response to those who have already committed that act of intolerance.

Although some like to use the word "demonizing" to characterize our view of illegals, those of us love our country and value the rule of law are clearly in the right on this point. We are demonizing no one, merely pointing out that, regardless of your childish attempt to give us an unnecessary and childish history lesson about the Indians,illegal is illegal unless you believe that the only laws that apply are those you approve of or those of some time long ago. We are all well-educated and we have no need of your patronizing attitude.

Your reading skills seem to be a little deficient since you have failed to recognize all of the important and valid rebuttal to misplaced and misguided arguments.

You wrote, "We are talking about HUMAN BEINGS here, not folks who rob, murder and steal. Like all past immigrant groups, these are people who have come to this country looking for the same opportunities for a decent life that attracted our ancestors." Again you are patronizing us when you suggest we don't know that the illegals are human beings and that they are merely looking for a decent life. The thing that you overlook is that our country has changed dramatically since the earlier waves of immigration in ways that suggest that the new non-diverse flood of immigrants will not assimilate and will simply convert our country to another Latin American catastrophe with all the ills of the originals. I can't believe, even in your gross naivete, that that is something you would wish on your worst enemy.

Perhaps it is just as well that you leave this blog. That's what they say, "If you can't stand the heatt, get out of the kitchen." Come back when you have had a chance to contemplate something beyond your misguided humanitarianism and are willing to give more importance to the national interest.

Anonymous said...

Analisa:
I know quite a number of white people who think like I do, and they don't take offense when I point out the historical treatment of Native Americans in this country. Or of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans...or Black people. This is because most of the white people I know are intelligent enough to acknowledge this history. And they are often the first ones to point it out.



Most intelligent white people are sick of hearing the non-stop whining about how oppressed the Blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans are. To the contrary, they are pampered to death now, it's sickening. GET OVER THE PAST and move on. All you do is rehash what is long over and done with.

Alie said...

Analisa, you did not merely "point out" the historical mistreatment of blacks or Native Americans. You accused patriot's ancestors of committing outright genocide against these people. We all know where you are coming from there. You were applying a collective guilt to every white person alive today in this country for historical events. Then you went on to hurl quite a few more insults for which you had no real basis. Calling someone a racist when there is no real evidence of such--because you disagree with their position on a particular political issue--is IN ITSELF a hateful act. The left, particularly the far-left, has been using this tactic for a long time now and it is really wearing thin.

Analisa, there has been oppression against people in every land. Ask any Irish person what was done to their people by the British. Or the genocide against the Armenians (white people) by the Turks. Or the destruction of the entire Western civilization by the Huns (a non-white group). My own ancestors were discriminated against when they first came here and had crosses burned on their property. I do not hold every white protestant person alive TODAY responsible for what some in their ethnic group did 100 years ago! This is another tactic of the far left and we are all sick to death of it.

What happened with the Native Americans was truly a tragedy as it is for any people who are conquered in their lands. And like it was pointed out to you, the Native Americans were a proud people who fought back with everything they had. They did their share of killing and slaughtering settlers who were doing nothing but living and farming on the land also. They felt that they were defending themselves against invaders. And they weren't called "racists" for doing so.

Now I understand your compassion for illegal aliens and that you do not want to see them demonized; I agree with you on that. I agree with you that they are human beings and that they should be treated with all human rights due to them. The problem as I see it, is that you only focus on the plight of the illegals, and do not seem to see any other part of the picture.

You do not see how this unfettered illegal immigration has negatively impacted American citizens of all races and ethnic groups. It is really the poor and working class in this country which have been most affected. But all of your "compassion" is reserved for foreign nationals and none for your fellow American citizens. As another poster here pointed out, you seem impervious to the negative consequences to this country of unfettered immigration into this country--the stress on our infrastructure,natural resources, schools, hospitals, and social services. You seem to have tunnel vision and only focus on one piece of the issue--the "plight" of the illegals, instead of looking at the whole picture and looking at the long-term effects to the country and its citizens. You completely discount all of these valid concerns as "racism." And in doing so, you make yourself irrelevant.

Like Liquid said, Robles is a good example of someone who truly wanted a dialog. He did not agree with our points, but did not discount them and start screaming, "RACIST, RACIST, GENOCIDAL ANCESTORS, GENOCIDAL ANCESTORS."

I feel certain that had you come onto this blog guns blazing with insults to a pro-illegal that Dee would have given you a warning and told you to tone it down. I feel that patriot was treated terribly unfair here and I don't blame him for leaving. In fact, I will probably do the same even though there are people here, including Robles with whom I have had disagreement, that I will really miss dialoging with.

ultima said...

Kudos to Alie and Liquid furnor an informed, intelligent and lucid refutation of everything Analisa had to offer as insults or patronizing commentary.

If Analisa's mother is from Brazil, perhaps she should ask her about the notorious slash and burn destruction of the rain forest and the displacement and murder of indigenous tribes. Analisa is in no position to lecture anyone about the mistreatment of Indians by early American settlers until she has had a long heart to heart talk with her mother about the practices in Brazil. She might also ask her about the unrestrained population growth there and its consequences for the rain forest, the environment and the impoverished people who live in paper shacks above the big cities in absolute squalor. Is this the product of an enlightened culture and society, the kind Analisa is wishing for us?

ultima said...

"Demonizing" to attribute wickedness or cruelty to an individual. Obviously this term is not generally applied to whole groups of people but it is incorrect to imply that all illegals, having already broken the law, are entirely free of sin and could not possibly be anything more than hardworking people trying to make a better life for their families. We all know better and we know that criminal behavior is not limited to illegals.

Clearly, Analisa who writes well in English, doesn't bother to ascertain the real meaning of terms before she uses them. She assumes that if they are mean-spirited or insulting terms they must apply to all who disagree with her. It is too bad that she picked up her marbles and went home. She might have learned something if she had stuck around and carefully read all the posts here without a jaundiced predilection.

ultima said...

I will be interesting when the Obamanites take over the detention centers and start their corrupt administration of them. It will be a safe bet that regardless of how little they change, we will hear nothing about the Obama-crony owned prisons. Just another example of Dee's biases which she never admits. Anyone who believes that an Obama administration will be all sweetness and light and that there will be no corruption and cronyism has already forgotten about the political contributions made by FM^2 to Obama and the chair of the oversight committee.

ultima said...

ACORN
The Acorn never falls far from the tree

Dee said...

Analisa,
Yes. There are bullies here. Don´t let them drive you off.
Like I say, I know some of them by name and they are not scary, except for the fact that they have their ANTI opinions and they look like everyday people. They won´t hurt you. They are probably more afraid of us than vice versa.

Frankly most people here enjoy the debate and fighting with me and other PROs. Some wish I would go away, but I won´t.

I do want to offer you a little advice. In these forums, people are anonymous and they say things to antagonize you that they would never, ever say in person. Realizing this, I just let any insults roll off my back and ignore them. Thats what you have to do. Not let any of their insults, jabs or opinions bother you.
We on our side have to stay strong. We have to dialogue with them. They need to hear our side. We need to hear theres. NONE of us are going away. We have to learn to talk and eventually agree and get along.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You are a big bully! Stop being so mean to people. There is no call for it. Calling someone a nut job was uncalled for.



Liquid said....
You on the other hand, until you can learn to discuss points and argue points, should stay away, your part of the overall problem, your lack of excepting anybody elses opinions will hamper you throughout the rest of your life. You refuse to listen and compromise, just go away!!

Extremists?? Your a nut job, from the loony left. A humanitarian socialist. The only extremist is you for refusing to listen and only yelling 'racist' to others who don't agree with you. Now, run and hide!!! BOO!!!!

Dee said...

Et Tu Ultima?
Calling people childish and saying they have reading comprehension issues is a bit of bullying.

Ultima, I do like you as a commenter, but you clearly comment using your opinions, not facts. You say your opionions are right, but they are your clearly your opinions, not facts. You can feel strongly about them, but your (and Roy Beck´s) whole perspective on overpopulation has been refuted. This has never been your side´s leading argument. The lead argument "rule of law" has also been refuted with the "bad laws-Jim Crow laws" response.
Republicans, ANTIS, AMShockJocks and Country Music has-beens continue to use the "we are patriotic you are not argument" and Obama has clearly refuted that argument in several recent speeches.

You speak OPINION. You have every right to your OPINION as I do to mine!
God Bless America!!

Ultima said..
those of us love our country and value the rule of law are clearly in the right on this point.

Dee said...

Anon,
Silly response!
Anyone who says there is no Racism in America or in the World is fooling themeselves!


Anonymous said...
Most intelligent white people are sick of hearing the non-stop whining about how oppressed the Blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans are. To the contrary, they are pampered to death now, it's sickening. GET OVER THE PAST and move on. All you do is rehash what is long over and done with.

Dee said...

Alie
Hmmm. Looks like you are quoting Ultima verbatim.
Actually, look at my newest post on Postville. They are extremely angry at ICE. They are angry about the ICE raids. They are angry at all the turmoil ICE brought to their community!

Who is negatively impacted by the hard workers that come here? Not Postville. They are angry at ICE!

Alie said...
You do not see how this unfettered illegal immigration has negatively impacted American citizens of all races and ethnic groups.

Dee said...

Ulty,
You cannot refute the facts. There were atrocities in America and across the World.
We must acknowledge them and remember history so we are not doomed to repeat these atrocities again. That is what Analisa was saying. Yet, we are repeating them with the heinous treatment of the workers in the ICE Raids! Think of the Postville sweeps, workers being dragged off like cattle. The detention centers have deplorable conditions. Read the reports. They are all there! And why is this happening, to appease the ANTIs and fill up the crony owned detention centers.

We are too busy looking the other way and making excuses for these atrocities, much like our ancestors looked the other way during the Japanese Internment Camps, in Nazi Germany and throughout the Trail of Tears!



ultima said...
Kudos to Alie and Liquid furnor an informed, intelligent and lucid refutation of everything Analisa had to offer as insults or patronizing commentary.

Dee said...

You know Alie,
I will agree with you in one regard.
ALL of our ancestors are NOT responsible for the treatment of Native Americans, the Trail of Tears.
Additionally,
All of our ancestors are not responsible for Slavery.
Additionally,
ALL of our ancestors were not responsible for the Japanese Internment Camps.

Yet, the reality is, our ancestors were alive when these mistreatments were happening and most said nothing and allowed the mistreatment to continue.
It was only the few heroes that stood up and said stop. The heros like Martin Luther King and the marchers who stood up and said the Jim Crow laws had to change and we needed Civil Rights for all!


Today, the atrocities are happening and yet no one but the PROs are standing up and saying the mistreatment should stop!

Dee said...

Ulty,
I think the election is getting to you and turning your mind into jelly. (strawberry or raspberry?)

I can hardly wait for the Obama administration and see the positive changes he will bring. I will continue to blog often!


ultima said...
I will be interesting when the Obamanites take over the detention centers and start their corrupt administration of them. It will be a safe bet that regardless of how little they change, we will hear nothing about the Obama-crony owned prisons.

ultima said...

"I can hardly wait for the Obama administration and see the positive changes he will bring. I will continue to blog often!"

If only we could count on that in the sense of exposing all the corruption and cronyism as you have tried to do for the Bush Administration. Look carefully and you will find plenty to report about Obama in that vein as his administration unfolds and he begins to exert his power as president. We can only hope that he exerts it on more important problems than detention centers.

ultima said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ultima said...

"I can hardly wait for the Obama administration and see the positive changes he will bring. I will continue to blog often!"

If only we could count on that in the sense of exposing all the corruption and cronyism as you have tried to do for the Bush Administration. Look carefully and you will find plenty to report about Obama in that vein as his administration unfolds and he begins to exert his power as president. We can only hope that he exerts it on more important problems than detention centers.

ultima said...

"I think the election is getting to you and turning your mind into jelly. (strawberry or raspberry?)"

No, its mint flavored jello and indeed it is this the longest political campaign in history that has numbed us all, causing us to lose most of our rationality and good sense.

ultima said...

"Who is negatively impacted by the hard workers that come here? Not Postville. They are angry at ICE!"

How long will that last? If that is their attitude, they are being myopic and care nothing about the larger issues involved, not just their little microcosm. They will wake up one day and find themselves in Mexico Norte with a similar standard of living of the mother country, along with its joblessness, overpopulation, and crime. There are many midwestern towns that have already learned that lesson as drugs sold by illegals have destroyed them and their children.

Dee said...

Ultima,
You have my commitment to follow the next President´s performance particularly in regard to cronyism, Immigration and the Global Economy.
I will report the facts and provide a forum for us all to discuss.
If Obama is elected and he continues the cronyism Bush has supported, believe me, I will report on it! For now, I will hold him to his word that he will create positive change and bring back Diplomacy.


ultima said...
"I can hardly wait for the Obama administration and see the positive changes he will bring. I will continue to blog often!"

If only we could count on that in the sense of exposing all the corruption and cronyism as you have tried to do for the Bush Administration. Look carefully and you will find plenty to report about Obama in that vein as his administration unfolds and he begins to exert his power as president. We can only hope that he exerts it on more important problems than detention centers.

ultima said...

"You cannot refute the facts. There were atrocities in America and across the World.
We must acknowledge them and remember history so we are not doomed to repeat these atrocities again."

We have all acknowledged America's checkered history innumerable times. You and Analisa are patronizing us when you suggest otherwise. You use the term "atrocities" way too loosely. How does the detention of illegals compare in any way with the holocaust, Darfur, the genocide in Bosnia, the indiscriminate slaughter of indigenous peoples, and their enslavement and forcible conversion? Get real, Dee! Are you also suffering from mushbrain?

ultima said...

"Kudos to Alie and Liquid furnor an informed, intelligent and lucid refutation of everything Analisa had to offer as insults or patronizing commentary."

My apologies for the typos above. My laptop seems to have a mind of its own. It seems to cause the cursor to jump around randomly when I'm not looking. The words "furnor an" above should read "for their".

Dee said...

Ulty,
Come on. You can not blame the Drug problems our country has on our neighbors to the south.
The top 3 Drug Using countries in the world are the US, Brittain and Australia. Meth is the worst drug in history and it is thriving in rural America and all across the country.
I was reading about the history of Mexican AgImmigration into the midwest. In the early 1900s, there was a large number of Eastern Europeans immigrating into the country. The ANTIs at that time hated the Eastern Europeans and the Asians. That is why the AgLobbyists pushed the Immigration Act of 1924, severely reducing Immigration from those locations. Instead, they developed a relationship with Mexico. They liked the Mexican laborer´s work ethic. They like their Christian values, going to Christian churches. They liked the fact they were humble and hard workers. They liked the fact that they went were so family oriented that they kept to themselves and returned home after the work was done. All of America loved them and encouraged them to harvest their crops. It started then and continued through to the Bracero program of the 1940s. Then in the 50s the ANTIs rose up against them and Operation Wetback happened. But after so much racial profiling most Americans stood up and said "ENOUGH"! Then Chavez came along and the UFW was formed. Latinos thrived in AgJobs. Then the Civil Rights movement and Latinos moved into the mainstream. Still open borders. Good relationships. Then people like Tanton poked their heads. He could not gain momentum until after 9-11. Then he tapped into the fear of Dubyas terrorist threats. And now, we are where we are.
However, the American Public is waking up again. They see what has happened to Postville. They see what Arpaio is doing.
It is obvious we need Immigration Reform. I am hoping Obama will deliver!


ultima said...
How long will that last? If that is their attitude, they are being myopic and care nothing about the larger issues involved, not just their little microcosm. They will wake up one day and find themselves in Mexico Norte with a similar standard of living of the mother country, along with its joblessness, overpopulation, and crime. There are many midwestern towns that have already learned that lesson as drugs sold by illegals have destroyed them and their children.

ultima said...

"Today, the atrocities are happening and yet no one but the PROs are standing up and saying the mistreatment should stop!"

The atrocities are only in the hyperbole lobe of your brain. Mistreatment by any reasonable standard for illegal aliens has not been demonstrated. We can all agree that illegals should not be mistreated but that doesn't mean they should not be detained and quickly deported taking their minor children with them. I'm sure they could expedite the process and gain their quick release by accepting voluntary repatriation, preferably at their own expense, preceded by photos, fingerprints, etc. so they know if they return they will do hard time.

ultima said...

"What is "the traditional ethnic composition"?"

Of course, that depends on what date you select? If we could decide on the point at which our population was at an optimum level, we could then look at the ethnic distribution at that time and answer your question.

ultima said...

"You cannot refute the facts. There were atrocities in America and across the World."

No one has attempted to so here. Some have pointed out that the Japanese relocation program was seen at the time as essential to our national security and few argued against it at the time. My main objection to that episode in our history is our failure to preserve the property and economic resources of Japanese-American citizens. Japanese nationals by law had to be incarcerated and were seen marching in a militant fashion demanding that they be repatriated so they could fight for the Japanese Empire.

Your husband was right. The strong always overcome the weak, and that applied to the Indian tribes as well as to the settlers. The Indians were slaughtering and enslaving each other long before the settlers reached the prairie.

It is great disservice to those charged with carrying out the laws of the land today when anyone accuses them of similar atrocities. I'm certain that if any real atrocities were documented and provable in a court of law, those responsible would be punished to the full extent of the law. This is a far cry from the hyperbole of those who cry wolf without such evidence.

ultima said...

"They [the Antis] are probably more afraid of us than vice versa."

Indeed we are because you have some much more potential for destroying the country we know and love while we work tirelessly to preserve it, our standard of living, our culture, our language, our ideals, the rule of law,and our quality of life. The things we work to preserve are the very things which the so-called pro-illegals by their actions, words and myopia are slowly destroying. The tragedy of that is that so many of them know not what they do and won't realize it until it is too late, a sad end to the American experiment.

Yes, we are afraid of you and for good and substantial reasons.

Dee said...

Ulty,
You sound like Dubya saying Waterboarding is OK!

I agree with you. The election is turning your brain into mint flavored jello. (I thought you were younger than MFJ)


ultima said...
The atrocities are only in the hyperbole lobe of your brain.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Wow!
You were there and you approved! My gosh! Unbelievable!


ultima said...
Japanese nationals by law had to be incarcerated.

ultima said...

"Calling people childish and saying they have reading comprehension issues is a bit of bullying."

As I recall, Analisa used that term first to Pat. I thought maybe she should have a taste of what that is like when it is applied to her. There is no bullying here just spirited argument and counter argument except when anyone resorts to name calling.

Dee said...

Ulty,
My husband (Irish American)and my sons are big guys. Lumberjacks. Muscular. Strong. Intimidating to those that don´t know they are puppydogs.
They walk into a room and the men shutter and make way for them.
Might makes right you say Ulty. If that is the case, then the only ones who will ever have powers in our country are the big guys. Little old people dont stand a chance!



Ultima said...
Your husband was right. The strong always overcome the weak, and that applied to the Indian tribes as well as to the settlers. The Indians were slaughtering and enslaving each other long before the settlers reached the prairie.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Destroy the country?? We built the country! We used our muscle and subservience to you and yours to do the manual labor to build this great country of OURS.

I work in a very large corporation Ulty. I am one of you. I am living the good life. I have learned your secret code. I am one of you. I am paid the big bucks to do what I do. I see how you and yours perform. I am at the top of my class. My class is one of you.

How does this compare to that of what my Father did? My Dad was as brilliant or more so than me. He worked 3 jobs to provide for his family of 10. Yet, he did not make one tenth of what I make today.

Sometimes I think of this.
My Dad was like so many of the day laborers of today or like so many of the new immigrants or the 12M. They come here to work. They come here to contribute. They come here to support their family and make a better life for their children.

And I, so much less than my Dad, sit here, in my nice home, with a nice job, in my nice suburb, and I have cracked the code. I am one of the highest rated managers of the one of the top corporations in the world. People seek me out. They believe my work ethic is so much beyond so many others. Yet, I cannot touch the soles of my father´s shoes, nor his work ethic, nor his intelligence. My father is like so many that come here today to make a better life for their children.

Yet you say we are here to destroy what you call the American Experiment. Ulty, we have been here all along.
We cracked your little code.
Performers like me are ranked high above everyone else you say is within your experiment.
WE want to be a member of the American DREAM. We have been here and merely want to participate.

You are not smarter than us.
WE just want to be a part of it.

YOU DO NOT understand this!



Ultima said...
"They [the Antis] are probably more afraid of us than vice versa."

Indeed we are because you have some much more potential for destroying the country we know and love while we work tirelessly to preserve it, our standard of living, our culture, our language, our ideals, the rule of law,and our quality of life. The things we work to preserve are the very things which the so-called pro-illegals by their actions, words and myopia are slowly destroying. The tragedy of that is that so many of them know not what they do and won't realize it until it is too late, a sad end to the American experiment.

Yes, we are afraid of you and for good and substantial reasons.

Hran said...

"Ulty,
Destroy the country?? We built the country! We used our muscle and subservience to you and yours to do the manual labor to build this great country of OURS."


Dee, I'm just going to tell you this once: do not, I repeat, do not, eat the worm at the bottom of the tequila bottle!

ultima said...

"We built the country! We used our muscle and subservience to you and yours to do the manual labor to build this great country of OURS."

It seems to me there were a few others involved besides your ethnic group--some old white guys like Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Grant, Stanford,Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur,and numerous other leaders in business, military, and government. Did those slip your mind. Up until recent times your contributions were limited to stoop labor or picking cherries, some labor that I have done myself and you were never subservient. Didn't your father belong to the union in the auto plants just like all those white and black guys.

Besides we're talking about apples and oranges here: work of any kind vs the insidious effect of disloyalty that accords precedence to foreigners rather than go your own countrymen and the national interest.

Anonymous said...

Alie
Hmmm. Looks like you are quoting Ultima verbatim.
Actually, look at my newest post on Postville. They are extremely angry at ICE. They are angry about the ICE raids. They are angry at all the turmoil ICE brought to their community!


Who cares if they are angry at ICE. Tough shit. They are mad because they got caught breaking the immigration laws of the United States.

Dee said...

Hran,
Sad Hran. Reality hurts doesnt it. I have written a book about my Dad´s and his Dad and his history in our country. I know the truth!

Quit being in denial!

Hran said...
"Ulty,
Destroy the country?? We built the country! We used our muscle and subservience to you and yours to do the manual labor to build this great country of OURS."


Dee, I'm just going to tell you this once: do not, I repeat, do not, eat the worm at the bottom of the tequila bottle!

Dee said...

Ulty,
Where did I say we were the ONLY group? Of course others were there too. You are the one who forgets our contributions!



ultima said...
"We built the country! We used our muscle and subservience to you and yours to do the manual labor to build this great country of OURS."

It seems to me there were a few others involved besides your ethnic group

Dee said...

Ulty,
Again, your OPINION.
I find the work that I and all PROs do is similar to the work of the Civil Rights workers in the 60s. We are advocating change! Change the Bad Laws and establish Comprehensive Immigration Reform!
God Bless America!!


Ultima said...
work of any kind vs the insidious effect of disloyalty that accords precedence to foreigners rather than go your own countrymen and the national interest.

Dee said...

Evil Anon,
Keep using profane language.
When I delete your comments with abusive language which violates blog rules, I get a little tingle of joy, just like eating Chocolate!

Aaaahhh, choooocccoooollaattte!!

ultima said...

"I find the work that I and all PROs do is similar to the work of the Civil Rights workers in the 60s. We are advocating change! Change the Bad Laws and establish Comprehensive Immigration Reform!"

There is one major difference. The Civil Rights workers of the 1960s were working on behalf of citizens not foreign interests. The immigration laws are not bad; they are just unenforced because of spineless wonders in Washington and the disloyal supports of illegals and their organizations like MALDEF, MEChA, La Raza and worse.

I think you have false pride in working against the national interest.

ultima said...

"We are advocating change! Change the Bad Laws and establish Comprehensive Immigration Reform!
God Bless America!!"

I think that is what Rev. Wright had in mind too but he didn't say "God Bless America"!

ultima said...

"You are the one who forgets our contributions!"

Not at all. Having done stoop labor and manual labor of all kinds I have a full appreciation of those who continue to this kind of work and those who have done it in the past. But it is easy to overemphasize their importance in the grand scheme of things. Those I mentioned were far more important. I hope we can depend on the Latinos who are in the process of taking over our country to offer achievements of similar significance. If they do not, if they continue the ways of their ancient cultures, they will have no one but themselves and their supporters to thank for destroying the goose that laid the golden egg. And you can say, "And I helped!"

ultima said...

"We built the country!"

A vast exaggeration at best. Even if you inserted the word "helped" that would still not be adequate recognition of the minor nature of your contributions. Have you never studied American history and the complete list of Nobel prize winners in chemistry, physics and medicine? Aren't the names I listed of any significance to you that you claim you built this country, not them?

ultima said...

"You are not smarter than us.
WE just want to be a part of it.

YOU DO NOT understand this!"

I understand it well and no one wants to deny you a part of it. What you do not understand is that, unlike the loaves and the fishes, our finite natural resources cannot be divided ad infinitum and expect the results to be the same -- a good job, a home in the suburbs, the white picket fence (i.e. the goose). What I do not understand is how you can support a foreign presence and a policy toward them that will reduce the number of our ancestors who will be able to enjoy the good life that you do. Why do you do that? It makes no sense and you have repeatedly failed to explain why you think our resources are limitless -- our land, our water, our food, our other natural resources. Why doesn't a bright individual like you appreciate those FACTS instead of blithely and blindly ignoring them. Have you ever thought about this carefully without your ethnic glasses on? I and others have repeatedly stated that we appreciate your accomplishments and those of your father (although I wonder about anyone who would work three jobs to support 10 kids, rather than working one to support 3). We would not deny you anything that an American citizen is entitled to but when you take the part of illegals that's where we draw the line in the sand and say wait a minute there Dee, you have gone to far. You are now talking disloyalty and sedition not good citizenship and the national interest. I really don't don't get it. The only explanation is your own background and the expectation that the privilege of illegal and legal entry can be extended to everyone in the world who wishes to come here without having any detrimental effect on our country. Now that is really sad and, in reality, beneath the dignity of your intellect.

ultima said...

"I know some of them by name and they are not scary, except for the fact that they have their ANTI opinions and they look like everyday people. They won´t hurt you."

On the other hand, the pro-illegals are really scary because of their potential to destroy this country with their misguided sympathies for foreign interlopers. They may not hurt us personally and individually but they certainly are hurting us and our country collectively by favoring immigration's unarmed invasion while ignoring its deadly consequences, largely on an unAmerican ethnic basis and without any consideration to the longer term consequences (other than to gloat over the Hispanic takeover).

ultima said...

"Then the Civil Rights movement and Latinos moved into the mainstream. Still open borders. Good relationships."

Gee, haven't you been in favor of secure borders for some time? I guess you are schizoid about the borders. You tell your anti friends one thing and your pro illegal friend the opposite. I am in favor of good relationships with all citizens who understand what finite natural resources mean and how they relate to our standard of living and quality of life. I am not in favor of those who are so grossly intellectually-challenged that they cannot appreciate that elementary fact.

ultima said...

"Anyone who says there is no Racism in America or in the World is fooling themeselves!"

I think Anon's point is that there is no sense to beat a dead horse. The longer we do that the longer it will take for the problem to be overcome by the initiative, hard work, and determination of those who feel oppressed. You are a perfect example of what that can accomplish. Living in the past will accomplish nothing -- every politician says, "We must move forward" not backward. If we remain mired in the past, we will be constrained in our efforts to move forward.

ultima said...

"Ultima, I do like you as a commenter, but you clearly comment using your opinions, not facts. You say your opionions are right, but they are your clearly your opinions, not facts. You can feel strongly about them, but your (and Roy Beck´s) whole perspective on overpopulation has been refuted."

There is no doubt that many opinions are stated here and have stated my share as well as many facts like: Nobel prize winners, those who built this country,finite natural resources, gangs, crime rates, the number of incarcerated Latinos, the shortage of water in the southwest and how it is compounded by population growth, Mexifornia -- a state of becoming, Mexico Norte,another doubling of our population before the end of this century, extinction of species, traffic congestion, pollution, people cause pollution (UN), pollution increase as our population doubles,food imports exceed food exports,with few exception (Monaco, small Middle Eastern oil producers, etc) the higher the population density, the greater the human misery,-- these facts are just a few of those I have related from time to time.

If you think Beck has been defrocked, that is just opinion or someone else's opinion.

Because you have chosen to ignore all of the facts I have presented in no way means there have been none.

Dee said...

Ultima,
With CIR then they are citizens. Just like the overthrow of the Jim Crow laws.

ultima said...
"I find the work that I and all PROs do is similar to the work of the Civil Rights workers in the 60s. We are advocating change! Change the Bad Laws and establish Comprehensive Immigration Reform!"

There is one major difference. The Civil Rights workers of the 1960s were working on behalf of citizens not foreign interests.

Liquidmicro said...

"With CIR then they are citizens."

Aren't you under the 'assumption' they want to become citizens. Some may want to, but not all, others do not deserve the opportunity. How do you go about removing the bad from the good and what do you then do with those that do not want citizenship and how do you remove them from the USA?

ultima said...

"With CIR then they are citizens. Just like the overthrow of the Jim Crow laws."

You seem to be pre-empting the actual decsion about CIR and what it would contain. Why don't you deal with the here and now? I guess that would make it much more difficult for you to find justification for your support of foreign nationals instead of your fellow citizens, which very closely approximates the idea of "disloyalty".

You would be in a much stronger position if you supported your fellow citizens wholeheartedly unless or until the law changes in a way that
legitimizes your position. But I suppose we will have to wait until hell freezes over or until pig fly for that to happen. And again the interesting thing about all this is you don't even recognize the error of your ways and if you do, that merely confirms the judgment about your ultimate loyalty.

ultima said...

"You have my commitment to follow the next President´s performance particularly in regard to cronyism, Immigration and the Global Economy."

And I hope with the same degree of cynicism and reportage on negative news articles and criticisms of the Obama administration as you have shown with regard to Bush, Palin and McCain.

ultima said...

"You sound like Dubya saying Waterboarding is OK!"

Hey, this is not charades. You don't get to say "sounds like", you have to quote directly. When you have incontrovertible evidence of Waterboarding in the detention centers, then we can talk. In the meantime, accept some reasonable historical standard on what is and what is not an atrocity.
Atrocity = is an act that is outrageously wicked, criminal, vile, or heinously cruel. Think of the holocaust and that will help you to understand this concept. Write it down for future reference when your hyperbole gets out of control. There are, of course, individual acts of a heinous nature but they are rarely lableled atrocities.

ultima said...

"You were there and you approved! My gosh! Unbelievable!"

Yes, more or less. I had two brothers and a sister in WW II and there was no love lost on the Japanese in the United States following Pearl Harbor, not even in the oval office.

I'd be willing to bet that any Hispanic family that lost someone in the Pacific shared that view. I sympathize with those Japanese Americans who lost property as a result of the relocations but I understand fully the necessity for them in the special circumstances of the time. I had many Japanese friends when I worked in Utah and at the University of Colorado and those cute little girls in Japan. If you have not seen the DVD "Snow Falling on Cedars" please get it and let me know what you think. I think it pretty well captures the signs of the times: the insularity of the Japanese whether they were citizens or foreign nationals, the prejudice on both sides, the sadness on the faces of the whites when they saw some of their Japanese friends being carted off to the camps,the young love between an American boy and a Japanese girl, the heroism of the Japanese American 442nd Regimental Combat team, the terrible conduct of the prosecutor, the conduct of an American soldier who lost so much. It is a very good film. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

With regard to the foreign nationals, I will leave it to you to research the veracity of that bit of information. It is available on the web and you can probably find the law that required the detention of the foreign nationals of our enemies.

I wasn't there but I learned about it first hand from my Japanese friends on the one hand and my siblings on the other. I beleive that information to be reliable and factual.

I'm not quite sure I understood your comment. Please elaborate.

ultima said...

"There is one major difference. The Civil Rights workers of the 1960s were working on behalf of citizens not foreign interests."

Moreover, the citzens involved were being deprived of their rights, while the illegals are not and have in fact violated the rights of others by being here.

These are major differences so don't parcel out too many accolades for yourself and others. We will have to delay your canonization for a while yet, until the Messiah Obama approves of it.

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