In May, 2008, ICE raided the Agriprocessor´s plant in Postville, IA. At the time, it was the biggest ICE raid in U.S. History. The city of Postville was in an uproar. They did not ask for the raid. In the early nineties, they rejoiced the arrival of the plant. Their town had no economy, no jobs, no livelihood. Agriprocessors changed that. Not only did the plant bring in new jobs, it brought in new economy, new small businesses, new churches, new neighborhoods, revenue, stores, growth.
After the raid, hundreds of workers were shipped to cattlebarns, then on to prison, detention centers or ankle bracelets. Many sought refuge in local churches. With so many people out of work, the economy nose-dived. Small businesses closed. Churches shriveled. Tax revenues gone.
Agriprocessors tried to replace the workers. The remaining townspeople did not want to do the jobs in the Cattle Barns. Workers were solicited from across the region, as far as southern Texas, the South Pacific and across the world. The townspeople did not like the change in demography of the new and sometimes raucous laborers.
Things have gone from bad to worse for Agriprocessors and for Postville´s economy. This week, Agriprocesser´s owner´s son was arrested for his role in providing false documentation (soliciting, hiring and providing false documentation) primarily to workers from hurricane ravaged, war torn Guatemala.
Now, a major lender has foreclosed on Agriprocessors and its owners, asking that a receiver be appointed to take control of the embattled kosher meat supplier. The action last Thursday by First Bank Business Capital of St. Louis seeks to foreclose on $33.5 million in loans.
Also this week, A staffing firm that provided more than half the work force at Agriprocessors in Postville PULLED OUT, taking with it about 450 employees. Regional Manager Jamie Cord said Friday that Jacobson Staffing has suspended relations this week with the Agriprocessor´s plant in Postville. The company told its 450 workers not to report to their jobs. Cord says that leaves the plant with about 250 workers.
An ICE Raid, a mass deportation of all the workers, caused devastation on this town. It will never be the same again. The Agriprocessors ICE Raid serves as a sterling example of the impact ICE-Suppression raids have on an area´s economy. It proves Mass Deportation does not work. It proves the impact on local economies is horrific. It proves that now, more than ever, our country is in dire need of Comprehensive Immigration Reform!
References:
Lender forecloses on Agriprocessors
Iowa firm pulls 450 workers from slaughterhouse
Posts
75 comments:
My heart breaks for Postville. Their town is devastated.
Yes, the ICE Raid was the trigger to their demise.
Some may choose to point blame. Some may blame it on Agriprocessors, the employer that solicited, hired undocumented workers.
Some may blame the workers from war torn, hurricane ravaged countries for wanting better lives for their children.
Some may blame history, for over 100 years, our country inviting the workers from the south and employing them in our Nation Building.
Some may blame ICE for method of performing the raid itself.
Regardless of who is to blame, what is important to understand that the Raid-Mass Deportation was the trigger that destroyed this town.
If we are to resolve Immigration issues, the answer is NOT Mass Deportation. The answer is NOT ICE-Suppression Raids. The answer is NOT Racial Profiling. The answer is NOT Detention Centers.
The answer IS our government understanding this is a complex issue and implementing Comprehensive Immigration Reform.
Deportation and punishing employers is the only answer. If a mistake has been made, it does not mean we can't fix it in any way that we see fit. This country's economic problems far outweigh immigration reform. We must enforce the laws now in place.
Sorry Anon.
The people of Postville have spoken!
They do NOT want MASS Deportation!
The people of Postville are only one small group of citizens. To imply that the entire town wanted this company to employ illegal aliens and circumevent our immigration and labor laws is calling a whole lot of citizens anti-American and disloyal. Postville is accountable to our federal laws just as any other town is. They should be blaming Agriprocessors for what they did and not our immigration laws nor the enforcement of them.
You complain about the employers and their accomplices not being punished and now that they have been with fines, prison time and foreclosure, you complain about that! Make up your mind! It would have been no different if these workers had been legal to begin with, they would still had been seeking out more illegals to replace them. As long as we don't secure our borders and enforce our immigration laws first, a CIR isn't going to mean anything.
Sandra,
Here is where you are missing it.
As by the Postville example, MASS DEPORTATION is NOT the solution.
All would be served better by Comprehensive Immigration Reform by the National Government.
Sandra said...
The people of Postville are only one small group of citizens. To imply that the entire town wanted this company to employ illegal aliens and circumevent our immigration and labor laws is calling a whole lot of citizens anti-American and disloyal.
What it proves is that an employers actions in cheating the system and a town believing in the employer, have nobody to blame but themselves. I would start looking at the mayor of the town back in 1987 when Ag moved to Postville. What were the incentives for Ag to move their? What brakes did they give? What promises did Ag make to the town?
And this is what you are missing miss dee, the entire content of my post. Deportations, raids and employer sanctions are the solution to making sure that immigrants do not come here here illegally any more along with securing our borders. If those already here are given amnesty, they will be fired and the new batch of illegals hired at a lower wage. The saga continues.
I have found another great site taht also spreads news mexicanunited.com
Liquid,
I agree. You have to go back and look at history and find out how they (we) got into the Immigration mess we are in today.
Will it do any good to hunt down that Mayor now? Probably not. But it is good to understand.
If there were reciprocal promises made by Agriprocessors for the breaks and tax incentives they received to move there, if they are beyond bankrupt, it is not likely they will be able to provide any payback.
The issue at hand is, the ICE Raids and Mass Deportations DID NOT WORK and Wrecked the town. That is clear. There has to be a better way to resolve these Immigration issues. I think the answer is CIR.
Liquidmicro said...
What it proves is that an employers actions in cheating the system and a town believing in the employer, have nobody to blame but themselves. I would start looking at the mayor of the town back in 1987 when Ag moved to Postville. What were the incentives for Ag to move their? What brakes did they give? What promises did Ag make to the town?
Sandra,
Sorry Sandra. This is what they did in Postville. It did NOT work!
The solution is CIR.
sandra said...
Deportations, raids and employer sanctions are the solution to making sure that immigrants do not come here here illegally any more along with securing our borders.
The raids succeeded in ridding the town of illegal aliens and putting Agriprocessors out of business, so it did work if you are one who puts the laws of this country first. Two groups of law breakers paid the price of breaking our laws. That is what matters. The town will recoup eventually. Their economy should not be based on exploiting illegal workers and the laws of this country anyway. CIR would have nothing to do with it because once legalized the employers would lay these same people off and continue to exploit more cheap, illegal labor. The only answer is to secure our borders and insist that employers use e-verify when hiring anyone. That is the right thing to do and it will work. That is if you are one who wants the laws and soviergnty of this country respected. I am one of those citizens. Are you?
"The people of Postville have spoken!
They do NOT want MASS Deportation!"
Sorry but they are not the only U.S. citizens. They cannot say, "Don't enforce the law!" If they wanted this agribusiness to thrive why didn't they take these jobs. Seems like they wanted others to do this work so they could avoid it, have their cake and eat it too, as it were.
We know you don't care a wit about the people of Postville; only the illegals have your support or you would be promoting a plan to solve this problem effectively and constructively rather than blindly supporting illegal aliens.
Sandra,
More and more you sound like the people who advocated the Jim Crow laws. They were the law of the land. They demonized anyone who advocated change.
What is clear is the 12M are here. What is clear is Postville is devastated and may not recover.
What is clear is Mass Deportation, Ice Raids, Suppression Sweeps and Racial Profiling do not work.
If you are advocating mass deportation and the closing down of businesses who have hired illegal immigrants over the last 100 years, you are advocating the demise of America.
I am a loyal citizen, I DO NOT advocate America´s demise. Are you?
With Comprehensive Immigration Reform, besides secure borders, included is bringing the 12M here out of the shadows, perhaps guest worker stataus and allowing those who have been here, felony free, to apply for citizenship.
Had this occurred in Postville, all the workers would have been identified. Agriprocessors would have been fined, bring the workers out of the shadows, sponsor the workers, improve the working conditions to OSHA standards.
All would be in some legal status. The company improved. The town NOT destroyed.
What you are having difficulty understanding is, the majority of Americans DO NOT want the Mass Deportation of 12M people plus their children. That number equals the size of the state of New York. Even most Congressmen agree.
Jim Crow laws? How does that compare to the right to enforce our immigration laws against illegal aliens and the employers who hire them? You are mixing apples and oranges here.
America is not based on lawlessness. That is what WOULD bring the demise of this country. You don't reward those who break our laws either. That WOULD be the demise of our country. I value morality over lawlessness.
I don't know what you mean that the raids and deportations aren't working. By doing so the illegals are going home and the employers are being punished. If that isn't working to support our laws, then I don't know what is.
"The issue at hand is, the ICE Raids and Mass Deportations DID NOT WORK and Wrecked the town."
There is no actual proof of what you state. Agriprocessors may have been ready to go under any way. It may have been a matter of time. Other workers were brought in to keep the company going, yet it still is failing. This falls back to Business 101, don't get to big to fast, you can't keep up and time is not on your side.
Ultima puts it quite simply:
"If they wanted this agribusiness to thrive why didn't they take these jobs." Where is 'I am from Postville'? Why isn't she applying to work at Agriprocessors? If daddy's store is going out of business, why doesn't he apply to work there? Why don;t the town folk save Agriprocessors if the company means so much to this town?
Well, maybe the Postville saga will serve as a lesson to other companies who blatantly break law after law in pursuit of the holy dollar.
You can be sure that the hundreds of other "Postvilles" and "Agriprocessors" in this country will be taking note of what happened in this Iowa town.
"Why don;t the town folk save Agriprocessors if the company means so much to this town?"
The town folk do not care about Agriprocessors, what the town folk care about is the money they make from the exploited workers of Agriprocessors. What did the town folk due in Postville prior to Agriprocessors moving there in 1987? They survived just fine, and they lived there by choice.
This is not about, as Dee puts it, "You have to go back and look at history and find out how they (we) got into the Immigration mess we are in today." This is about a company exploiting workers, a town in compliance with the company, and the town gaining for its own benefit.
punish employers-deport illegals-
follow the law-this is how it should be.
Sandra,
What is interesting is you are using, almost verbatim, the same words the anti civil rights movement used against MLK and his followers. Rule of Law. Abide by the law. Sit in the back of the bus. Dont sit at the lunch counter. Dont drink at the same water fountain. The law of the land.
What is true is sometimes the laws need to be changed, especially these so called CIVIL laws!!
sandra said...
Jim Crow laws? How does that compare to the right to enforce our immigration laws against illegal aliens and the employers who hire them? You are mixing apples and oranges here.
America is not based on lawlessness. That is what WOULD bring the demise of this country. You don't reward those who break our laws either. That WOULD be the demise of our country. I value morality over lawlessness.
Liquid,
Maybe there are jobs that Americans won´t do. I see them every day. I see them at construction sites. I see them at Meat Packing sites. I see them on TV, the workers doing the work that most Americans dont want to do.
Why is that?
I do wonder about this sometimes. Why is it there are so many jobs that are being filled immigrants (legal or otherwise) and hispanics like the meat packing jobs, agjobs, construction.
My husband likes to watch the show "Dirty Jobs." Some-many of the worst jobs are owned by anglo americans but when you see the actual workers, they are latinos. We saw some last night. There was a meat packing factory for dog food. They used these giant cleavers to gut and cut apart the stomach, innards, bones, etc. I think they called it POOP as an acronym.
What YOU don't get is that the discrimination of black CITIZENS of long ago is not the same as enforcing our immigration laws against illegal aliens TODAY. Don't even go there!!!
When I started my career in management in my company, I knew I wanted to work for my entire career in this corporation. As a manager, I always asked for additional responsibilities. My goal was to pick up aspects of the job no one else wanted to do but were required and vitally needed for the success of the organization. I always shared this with my teams. Find something vitally needed that no one else wants to do and you will be needed for life.
No one ever told me to do this. It was always instinctive. It was a good philosophy. Ultimately, while thousands of others were downsized or outsourced, I always had a good job and so did my teams.
American construction workers have been put out of business due to cheaper illegal alien labor, not because Americans won't do construction work anymore. You know that and so do most other Americans. Lets not play dumb here and make up stories.
Az,
What a weird example.
Given that analogy and the fact that 12M are here and millions of employers are hiring them, what ICE should do is make the neighbors house them vs Detention Centers. Would save us millions in crony owned facilities.
The Arizonian said...
Since Dee wants to compare immigration law with Jim Crow laws, allow me to make a fruitless comparison:
When allied troops entered into Germany towards the end of WWII, and discovered the concentration camps, our troops were shocked and disgusted. So in retaliation, they forced the locals on the nearby villages to bury the dead at the camps.
Why?
Because these people lived in the shadow of said camps, and did nothing to end the atrocities there.
The same could be said about Postville.....
Ulty,
Actually I DO care about the people of Postville. I invited writers from that city to post here. I care about the devastation they are facing. My heart goes out to them. And I do not want the same devastation happen to the rest of America as you do.
Obviously you and your fellow ANTIs could care less about the devastation we would all face if there were Mass Deportations. All of us would suffer. I suppose you would say "suck it up."
ultima said...
We know you don't care a wit about the people of Postville; only the illegals have your support or you would be promoting a plan to solve this problem effectively and constructively rather than blindly supporting illegal aliens.
Your heart goes out to no one but illegal aliens. You fool no one with your claims about caring anything about Postville or anyone else.
Gee, America will be devasted because it couldn't continue to exist on lawlessness? Spare me the BS, please! That isn't what this country is all about.
Dee said...
Liquid,
Maybe there are jobs that Americans won´t do. I see them every day. I see them at construction sites. I see them at Meat Packing sites. I see them on TV, the workers doing the work that most Americans dont want to do.
Why is that?
Let's see, from a business owners perspective its about getting the work done as cheap as possible while making a profit, no extra expenses such as benefits to the employees, more profits. Why should I then lower my price, when others are charging more who are giving benefits and paying a decent wage while making less profit. That's just more money in my pocket.
Maybe there are jobs Americans do if they are paid what the job is worth. A drywaller used to make $20 per hour with benefits 15 years ago, same job today pays $8-$12 per hour with no benefits. Americans can't afford to take pay cuts and lose benefits, yet you believe they should out of fairness to people who come here only to work. So then, what happens to the American Citizen who just lost his job to an "Illegal Alien"??
Sandra,
What an odd thing to say.
That would be like me saying you are nothing but a snot nosed, hate mongering racist, but I would NEVER say that!
The reality is, I do care about people, humanity, and the impact Mass Deportation would have on this great country of ours!
God Bless America!!
sandra said...
Your heart goes out to no one but illegal aliens. You fool no one with your claims about caring anything about Postville or anyone else.
Gee, America will be devasted because it couldn't continue to exist on lawlessness? Spare me the BS, please! That isn't what this country is all about.
November 3, 2008 5:03 PM
The Civil Rights Act was about Civil Rights for American Citizens. To equate that to a Federal illegal immigration problem is no where near the same thing.
We all know that "Illegal Aliens" have NO RIGHTS unless they are being charged with an Infamous Crime, for which they are entitled to the 6th Amendment. And because they have NO Rights, there are NO issues to link it to Civil Rights, or for that matter Civil Liberties, of "Illegal Aliens".
"The issue at hand is, the ICE Raids and Mass Deportations DID NOT WORK..." Ah, but they did. Aren't the illegals on their way outa here?
Liquid,
You are not making sense. Since when do AgJobs pay $14 an hour? Do you want to pay $20 for a salad?
Do we all need to stop going to Wal Mart?
What about construction jobs and meat packing jobs? (Especially in 100 degree TX heat) I hear they do pay between $14 and $20 per hour? The jobs at Agriprocessors, Armour, Pilgrims Pride and others did pay this much. What about those jobs?
Liquidmicro said...
Why is that?
Let's see, from a business owners perspective its about getting the work done as cheap as possible while making a profit, no extra expenses such as benefits to the employees, more profits. Why should I then lower my price, when others are charging more who are giving benefits and paying a decent wage while making less profit. That's just more money in my pocket.
Maybe there are jobs Americans do if they are paid what the job is worth. A drywaller used to make $20 per hour with benefits 15 years ago, same job today pays $8-$12 per hour with no benefits. Americans can't afford to take pay cuts and lose benefits, yet you believe they should out of fairness to people who come here only to work. So then, what happens to the American Citizen who just lost his job to an "Illegal Alien"??
"The solution is CIR."
In a pig's eye! CIR as you define it is nothing more than amnesty. The last time we tried that it resulted in 12-30 million more illegals. Now if that is your objective, then I guess you could say from your limited perspective that CIR is the answer. I don't buy it.
"What is clear is Mass Deportation, Ice Raids, Suppression Sweeps and Racial Profiling do not work."
Is that what the ex-employees at Postville are saying or are they on their way home?
Dee said...
Liquid,
You are not making sense. Since when do AgJobs pay $14 an hour? Do you want to pay $20 for a salad?
Do we all need to stop going to Wal Mart?
What about construction jobs and meat packing jobs? (Especially in 100 degree TX heat) I hear they do pay between $14 and $20 per hour? The jobs at Agriprocessors, Armour, Pilgrims Pride and others did pay this much. What about those jobs?
I gave you but one construction situation. Meat packing jobs are done in side air conditioned buildings, heat spoils the meat. As far as Agriprocessors workers being paid $14 to $20 per hour, you had better do some better research, the actual workers were paid $10 and less per hour.
An Agriculture worker makes approx. $10 per hour minimum as mandated by each state. Look to the $40M farmer who moved his fields to Mexico. He pays $1200 per week to his foreman in Mexico, yet prices are no where near $20 for a salad. Look to cost and demand and inflation. Your scare tactic of this has already been dismissed as fast as it came out.
"The answer IS our government understanding this is a complex issue and implementing Comprehensive Immigration Reform."
In other words, amnesty is the only answer. Admittedly, this is a complex issue and there is always a well-known solution to every complex issue and human problem--simple, neat, plausible, and wrong.
"My heart breaks for Postville. Their town is devastated."
Now we know what a true bleeding heart liberal is, one who claims sympathy for one party, when that sympathy really lies elsewhere. There are little towns all over America that are drying up and blowing in the wind. Like they say, how are you going to keep them down on the farm and in these small towns when they have been to Paree or LA.
Dee is shedding crocodile tears. Her hypocritical grief for Postville is like the tears a crocodile sheds for the victim it devours.
When are we going to see a realistic proposal from Dee, one that will work effectively and that offers more than simple amnesty or forgiveness for all illegals and the open borders that have been and will be the result.
Ulty,
We KNOW that MASS DEPORTATION will NOT work.
I challenge you to provide us an alternate solution to CIR for cities like Postville?
ultima said...
"The solution is CIR."
In a pig's eye! CIR as you define it is nothing more than amnesty. The last time we tried that it resulted in 12-30 million more illegals. Now if that is your objective, then I guess you could say from your limited perspective that CIR is the answer. I don't buy it.
Liquid,
The documentation is clear. They were paying +$14 per hour. Dont make things up! Ask the locals. They will tell you the same, even for the new hires that they are just letting go.
The facts are, the locals, even "from Postville" DO NOT want to do the Dirty Work! What is so hard to understand.
Liquidmicro said...
Meat packing jobs are done in side air conditioned buildings, heat spoils the meat. As far as Agriprocessors workers being paid $14 to $20 per hour, you had better do some better research, the actual workers were paid $10 and less per hour.
Dont chastise people for NOT wanting to do work YOU wont do!
You have a nice cushy job. So does Ulty. So do most posters here.
We found our niche.
I do not want to be a meat packer, construction worker or go back to being a Cherry Picker! We want to use our educations and work other jobs, fun jobs, challenging jobs that challenge our minds not our muscles or ability to withstand heat or muscle.
Ulty,
Until you are ready to go out in the fields again and pick crops or lift 50 pound loads in construction in +100 heat, then we can talk.
I do not blame people for not wanting to do those jobs.
I think yes, we do need viable guest worker programs and bring in people who want to do those jobs. Many of them do want to have circularity and return to their country of origin for a couple of months a year and not give up their citizenship.
What we do need is CIR to ensure there are safe conditions, no exploitation, proper pay. and legal status, even as Guest Workers, for those that want to support that work.
ultima said...
In other words, amnesty is the only answer. Admittedly, this is a complex issue and there is always a well-known solution to every complex issue and human problem--simple, neat, plausible, and wrong.
Ulty,
You know I have provided viable proposals.
I think we do have room for a legitimate Guest Worker program.
We do need to have a viable guest worker program.
We do need to bring the 12M out of the shadows.
We do need to have a secure border and penalize exploitive employers.
We do need to get rid of the backlgog.
Yes. We do need ALL of this!!
ultima said...
When are we going to see a realistic proposal from Dee, one that will work effectively and that offers more than simple amnesty or forgiveness for all illegals and the open borders that have been and will be the result.
Dee said...
Liquid,
The documentation is clear. They were paying +$14 per hour. Dont make things up!
The only one making things up is you. Again, your utter ignorance is in the open for all to see.
Mayor: Feds turned my town 'topsy turvy'
If I'm not mistaken, even you used this article as reference. Please note the following at the end of the article:
"All of the Somalis came here to work at the plant," says Abdi Hasan, who came to the United States from Somalia five months ago. "I came to look for a job here."
He says they've been welcomed by the locals -- "no problems, no mistreatment, no nothing."
Hasan gets paid $10 an hour at the "kill house" at Agriprocessors, he says. His only complaint: Not being allowed to say Muslim prayers while at work.
Now, please show everybody where it is that workers were paid $14+ per hour as you have stated!!
Liquid,
As always, you forget the big picture.
You provided a reference to starting wage for new workers.
I referenced wages for overall workers for those who were cattle barned. Earlier reports indicated they were earning $14 to $19 dollars per hour.
Remember the BIG PICTURE Liquid.
It MAY help you!
Lets use you metaphore of yo and your husband watching TV, Americas Dirtiest Jobs, you noted: "Some-many of the worst jobs are owned by anglo americans but when you see the actual workers, they are latinos."
Even if they are Latino's doing the work, they are American Citizens, NOT "Illegal Aliens"!! Your equating the Hispanics/Latino's in this country to those of "Illegal Aliens" just by sight and for doing a job you think to be "Dirty" is very divisive on your behalf. You confound the distinction of Hispanics/Latinos as being "Illegal". Try arguing with some better intellect, as of now you are batting a ZERO!!
Please provide PROOF of the $14 - $19 per hour, a link, anything!!
Here's the BIG picture Dee.
Agriprocessors takes aim at gov't, gets boost as group drops boycott
July 10th, 2008
New York (JTA) — An Orthodox social justice group dropped its boycott of the embattled kosher meat producer Agriprocessors, saying the company is "beginning to take significant steps" to address claims of worker mistreatment at its plant in Postville, Iowa.
Uri L'tzedek launched the action in mid-June to protest reports that Agriprocessors had employed underage workers, tolerated an atmosphere of sexual harassment and paid workers below the minimum wage.
Admit your mistake Dee, there never was anybody there paid more than $10 per hour.
How about this one.
Jewish Voice
Pay is a recurring complaint from AgriProcessors' workers. Manuel makes $7.25 an hour, having moved up from $6.25. But Manuel and many other workers said that their weekly paychecks come up three or four hours short regularly, a claim that the union organizers reported hearing frequently. When supervisors are alerted, they promise to correct things but rarely do, workers and union officials said.
Your disconnect to the conditions and pay of people who live outside your gated community is atrocious Dee. You have no sense of actual life beyond yourself.
One more just for enjoyment.
RNC Crony ´Agriprocessors´ Still in Business. Owners Unpunished!
Dee says:
May 30, 2008 11:26 AM
According to MSNBC, workers at the plant were routinely started at $5 per hour for their first three or four months on the job and then raised to $6, still well below Iowa's minimum wage of $7.25.
From your own ignorant mouth Dee, on your own ignorant blog. You stated the above.
Now please show everybody who reads this where it is that they were paid from $14 - $19 per hour!!
I would go along with an expanded guest worker program if a study is done to prove we need more than the LEGAL ones already here. I would also include that whatever additional workers are needed that these workers be pulled from many interested countries, not just Latino ones. So that would mean just as a ballpark figure lets say we need 10 million new legal guest workers. That would still mean that several million of the Latino illegal ones would still have to leave to be fair to other immigrants wishing to come from other non-Latino countries to fill these new guest worker visas. What say you, miss Dee? You wanted a compromise? Well that is mine and it is a fair one.
Liquid,
It isnt me that does this.
It is your side that continues to indict all Latinos through the Raids, at Day Labor Sites and during the marches.
Liquidmicro said...
Even if they are Latino's doing the work, they are American Citizens, NOT "Illegal Aliens"!! Your equating the Hispanics/Latino's in this country to those of "Illegal Aliens" just by sight and for doing a job you think to be "Dirty" is very divisive on your behalf. You confound the distinction of Hispanics/Latinos as being "Illegal". Try arguing with some better intellect, as of now you are batting a ZERO!!
Liquid,
This is my 40+ post on this subject. It was in an earlier post.
Even you MUST acknowledge starting wage vs tenured wage.
sheeesh!!
Liquidmicro said...
Please provide PROOF of the $14 - $19 per hour, a link, anything!!
Liquid,
Hardly the Big Picture.
I recall seeing this article on failed messiah BACK IN JULY when it was published.
Hardly current or relevant!
Liquidmicro said...
Here's the BIG picture Dee.
Agriprocessors takes aim at gov't, gets boost as group drops boycott
July 10th, 2008
New York (JTA) — An Orthodox social justice group dropped its boycott of the embattled kosher meat producer Agriprocessors,
Liquid,
Dont try to change the argument. We were discussing the American citizen worker wage in these locations.
The discussion was, "wages Americans are paid".
We both agree that for some of the illegal immigrants that were solicited, hired, provided papers and exploited, they were underpaid.
However, the workers that they contracted via the staffing contractor were offered and PAID a STARTING WAGE of +$10 per hour. For the experienced workers, higher.
We were discussing jobs Americans WONT DO and WAGES they PAID AMERICANS!! Remember???
Liquidmicro said...
How about this one.
Jewish Voice
Pay is a recurring complaint from AgriProcessors' workers. Manuel makes $7.25 an hour
AND even at the Higher Wage, they COULD NOT GET American Workers to DO THE JOB!!!
That was the argument Liquid!(why do I have to keep reminding you??)
Sandra,
I would agree for future needs. However, we as a nation do need to take some accountability for our history and those that have been here +5 - 20 years. We need at least some consideration to be allowed to go into a Guest Worker program.
Soon, it will not make a difference because this group is aging as new entrants have been significantly reduced.
sandra said...
I would go along with an expanded guest worker program if a study is done to prove we need more than the LEGAL ones already here. I would also include that whatever additional workers are needed that these workers be pulled from many interested countries, not just Latino ones. So that would mean just as a ballpark figure lets say we need 10 million new legal guest workers. That would still mean that several million of the Latino illegal ones would still have to leave to be fair to other immigrants wishing to come from other non-Latino countries to fill these new guest worker visas. What say you, miss Dee? You wanted a compromise? Well that is mine and it is a fair one.
Tenured new workers at Agriprocessors were still only paid $10 per hour. That's all the workers who came from Nebraska got after they were told they would have free housing and $200 bonus. Even the new Somalis are getting just $10 per hour. So please show where any were paid $14 - $19 per hour, give a link, something to prove your statement. So far you have given nothing at all other than your own hot air.
Your exact statement was: "The jobs at Agriprocessors, Armour, Pilgrims Pride and others did pay this much. What about those jobs?"
As I have shown, at NO TIME has Agriprocessors ever paid more than $10 per hour, whether the employee is legal or otherwise.
Dee said...
AND even at the Higher Wage, they COULD NOT GET American Workers to DO THE JOB!!!
$10 being the higher wage, when this industry use to pay $14 - $19 per hour years ago. If the meat processors were to pay the wages they use to, Citizens would go back and do this work. I have many cousins that use to do this in Nebraska and here in California, these businesses cut the unions, then the benefits then the wages, no Citizen could survive on less than what they were use to.
Remember the earlier words I used: "Let's see, from a business owners perspective its about getting the work done as cheap as possible while making a profit, no extra expenses such as benefits to the employees, more profits. Why should I then lower my price, when others are charging more who are giving benefits and paying a decent wage while making less profit. That's just more money in my pocket."
This places legally operating businesses at a competitive disadvantage!! all the while the cheater rakes in $$$$$$$ and the workers are treated as nothing more than slaves.
The majority of these Latino illegals have not been here for that many years and that should have nothing to do with it anyway if we are going to be fair with any new guest worker program. Why don't you just admit you prefer most of them to be Latino like you and be done with it? You don't want any compromise, you just want it your way and that is to fill this country up with Latinos over other immigrants. I want diverseness among immigrants, you don't.
Liquid,
Here is what the Somalis were promised:
"They come clutching pieces of paper that advertise jobs between $10 and $18 an hour. Those with previous industry experience, like Ajou, say recruiters tell them wages closer to $18 are all but guaranteed."
This discussion is about citizen wages and jobs Americans wont do even though higher wages are offered.
Granted Agriprocessors has a history of abuses and violations, however, if skilled American workers worked there, they would be obliged to pay the higher wages. However they could not get enough people locally to apply and had to outsource via a contracting company.
Liquid,
Of course I reported that Agriprocessors continually solicited, hired, provided false papers and EXPLOITED the workers, underpaying them.
However, when advertising these jobs locally, as I said, they offered the local citizens a much higher wage, but these were jobs the local citizens did NOT want to do.
I wouldnt want to do that work either, especially with their history of OSHA violations.
keep with the Topic Liquid and stop your name calling!!
AZ,
I agree with you to a point, but I would add,
1. Money
2. Because they dont want to
3. Because they dont have to
There are so many other "fun" jobs/careers that citizens prefer to perform plus many of the boomers have enough money they do not encourage or ask their children to perform the entry level jobs we performed as teenagers.
Construction work is thriving here in the DFW area. I look at the workers that work in this 100+ degree heat. I look at the roofers who work in this 100+ degree heat with the scorching hot roofing supplies. The vast majority of these workers are Latinos. You have to ask yourself why aren´t nonLatino workers working there? I think the answer is because they dont want to and because they dont have to. It is NOT wages.
The Arizonian said...
Dee said:
"Why is it there are so many jobs that are being filled immigrants (legal or otherwise) and hispanics like the meat packing jobs, agjobs, construction."
Well that's easy: Money
Like it was stated before, it is not as though "white-americans" won't do these jobs, they just won't do them them at the suppressed rates that have occurred due to an influx of cheap labor. he employers haven't lowered their price, but they have effectively lowered their cost.
I used to work construction at one point. We were being paid 12-15 dollars an hour to do lathe (the foam and wire prep for stucco). The same job now pays 7-9 dollars an hour now. And this was when it was in high demand.
We were undercut by cheap foreign labor.
Outsourcing within America, in a sense....
""They come clutching pieces of paper that advertise jobs between $10 and $18 an hour. Those with previous industry experience, like Ajou, say recruiters tell them wages closer to $18 are all but guaranteed.""
That is what the flyer may have said, but NONE have received anything more than $10 per hour. If you believe everything printed, I have a bridge I'm willing to sell you. Research Dee, Research. Now, Please show everybody here where workers at Agriprocessors have received anything more than $10 per hour. I gave you numerous accounts in which "Illegal Aliens'" received as little as $5 per hour and shown that new Somali immigrants only received $10 per hour. At NO TIME AT ALL have any workers EVER received more than $10 per hour. What is so hard for you to admit about it??
"This discussion is about citizen wages and jobs Americans wont do even though higher wages are offered."
No wages were offered to American Citizens. The company went through an agency providing workers. Agencies are not the best place in which to obtain a job and usually those who are not very well qualified are the ones using agencies.
"Granted Agriprocessors has a history of abuses and violations, however, if skilled American workers worked there, they would be obliged to pay the higher wages. However they could not get enough people locally to apply and had to outsource via a contracting company."
And why is it they couldn't get 'skilled' workers there?? Because they are a terrible company to work for. The company needs to be out of business, period. This circle leads us back to the beginning, why did Agriprocessors move to there to begin with?? What incentives were offered?? What advertising has Agriprocessors done in order to obtain workers of higher caliber?? Why the advertising in foreign countries to begin with?? Why not advertise here in the USA?? It all amounts to cheap labor and PROFITS for the owner, and the town folk went right along with it. SHUT AGRIPROCEESORS DOWN and keep it closed!!!!
"keep with the Topic Liquid and stop your name calling!!"
Either you have a comprehension problem or your eyes need checked. I have yet to call you anything. I am very willing to start though. As for the topic, I have yet to deter from it. Now, if you think you can refute my information, then provide documents or some sort of proof of your statements, otherwise you are doing nothing more than BLOWING HOT AIR!!!
"Construction work is thriving here in the DFW area. I look at the workers that work in this 100+ degree heat. I look at the roofers who work in this 100+ degree heat with the scorching hot roofing supplies. The vast majority of these workers are Latinos."
As I eluded to earlier, Dee, Your disconnect to the conditions and pay of people who live outside your gated community is atrocious Dee. You have no sense of actual life beyond yourself. Come to Northern California, most in Construction are White, most in Engineering are White and Asian, most in Landscaping are White, Asian, and Hispanic. The country is much different then what you see from your front door.
Here's the entire story of the paragraph you are using of a flyer for $10 - $18 per hour. Now everybody can make up there own mind and see you for what you are, HOT AIR and disconnected from the rest outside of your gated community.
Sudanese refugees find work, home in Postville after raid
By Jens Manuel Krogstad, Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier
POSTVILLE --- Ajou Ajou stands outside the old mattress factory on Main Street, hands in his pockets, pondering a life that has led him from the deserts of Sudan to a kosher meat processing plant in Iowa.
Behind him, inside what is now a Somali restaurant, two men perform Islamic prayer, called salah. They kneel on a green and gold embroidered rug and bow deeply until their foreheads touch the ground.
As a Christian in Sudan, Ajou says, sharing meals and coffee with Muslims was unheard of. Not so in Postville. Every day after work, African men of all faiths gather at the restaurant to eat and play cards.
Ajou, 33, left his wife and three young children 10 days ago in Amarillo, Texas, for the promise of a better paying job.
All summer, workers from across the country have arrived in Postville.
They come clutching pieces of paper that advertise jobs between $10 and $18 an hour. Those with previous industry experience, like Ajou, say recruiters tell them wages closer to $18 are all but guaranteed.
That has not been the case --- jobs always start at $10 an hour, the workers say, displaying pay stubs.
A spokesman for Jacobson Staffing, the staffing company hired by Agriprocessors, did not return a phone call last week. But company officials have previously said workers are eligible for raises if they perform well.
Yet when Ajou considers his employment at Agriprocessors, he does not complain as loudly as others.
"The United States is good," he says, a wide, easy smile breaking across his boyish face. "I don't want to go back home. The government is too bad. I was Christian, so they didn't like me."
Ajou grew up in a nation ruled by fundamentalist Islamic leaders. In 2001, in the midst of Sudan's decades-long civil war, he fled the African nation, having lost his father and three brothers to the conflict. Failing to find steady employment for several years in Egypt, he emigrated to the U.S. in 2006.
While Ajou can't complain, he also says life was better with his young family at his side.
He made $13 an hour in Texas skinning cows at a meat packing plant. Upon hearing of a job in Iowa that paid significantly more, he jumped on a bus and headed north, sure his family would soon follow.
Ajou recalls his wife's reaction when he broke the news to her of his new $10-an-hour job, and laughs. She was not happy.
"My wife said, come back. But I want to try here," he says. "I will wait to see if this place is good for me."
Ajou acknowledges, after some prodding, that sometimes things are not good. Supervisors yell at workers --- something that rarely happened at his old job. In addition to lower wages, his family now squeaks by with no health insurance, because benefits won't kick in for three months.
A couple of hours after the Islamic prayer, a group of men sit in folding chairs laughing at Somali comedians on a portable DVD player.
At another table, four men twirl spaghetti around their fingers before stuffing it in their wide-open mouths. The platter, served in lidded Styrofoam containers, also features goat meat. They wash the meal down with orange soda, before scrubbing their greasy fingers in a nearby sink.
The man serving the meals, who identified himself only as "A.K.," says the men don't pay for the $10 meals. Rather, he establishes a tab for them. The men complain of the steep price tag, he says, but the owner feels backed into a corner.
Last week, much of the restaurant's customer base left town when dozens of Somalis were fired from Agriprocessors. After an investment of tens of thousands of dollars, the restaurant sits half constructed --- freshly painted walls and new carpet, but few tables and chairs and no cash register. The big purchase, a large commercial stove, sits in back gathering dust.
Another recent arrival, Johnson Manyang, 21, explains that new workers are left with little money for their labor until they pay off their first month's rent and deposit, so they put their meals on a tab.
Like his roommate Ajou, he immigrated from Sudan in 2001. And like Ajou, he was lured from his meat packing job in Texas on the promise of higher wages.
He jumped at the opportunity because his family --- mom, dad, seven brothers and a sister --- recently purchased their first home in the Houston area.
To pay the $1,300-a-month mortgage, he and his brothers took jobs at a nearby meat packing plant.
"I worked at Swift (a plant in Texas) for two years. Then I hear about this good job --- they pay your rent, pay you good money. So I quit my job," he says.
Like Ajou, he laughs when he considers his reality.
Liquid,
Here is where you are missing it.
The news reports cited wages of the exploited illegal immigrants, which WE BOTH agreed were exploitive, and underpaid!
The other point they referenced wages were for the new citizen hires at $10 to $18 per hour. News reports only shared the fact that some of the somalis left early. No other documentation.
There were no reports of what tenured, long term citizen laborers were paid.
What we did hear was that locals were not applying and Agriprocessors resorted to hiring contractors first in Iowa then nearby states, then Texas to fill their needs.
And NONE have been paid more than $10 per hour. The Employment agency just pulled 450 employees from Agriporocessors leaving roughly 250 workers still there. Agriprocessors owes money that it can't pay back and is now filing bankruptcy. Unless you can show someone having received more than $10 per hour for working there, there is nothing to prove more than that. Agriprocessors will, hopefully, soon be out of business, if not, should be looking at better marketing and hiring practices to encourage better workers and better wages and benefits.
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