Tuesday, November 18, 2008

Breaking News: VP Cheney and Gonzo Indicted for Detention Center Abuse and Cover-Up

As I have frequently reported, the privately owned Private Detention Center Prisons are rife with abusive treatment of detainees, poor oversight and owned by Cronies of the Bush Administration!
Today, V.P. Cheney has been indicted for his association with his crony prison owner friends, their abuse and his role in former Attorney General Gonzales´cover-up!
ABC News reports:
McALLEN, TX -- A South Texas grand jury has indicted Vice President Dick Cheney and former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales on charges related to the alleged abuse of prisoners in Willacy County's federal detention centers. The indictment criticizes Cheney's investment in the Vanguard Group, which holds interests in the private prison companies running the federal detention centers. It accuses Cheney of a conflict of interest and "at least misdemeanor assaults" on detainees by working through the prison companies.
Gonzales is accused of using his position while in office to stop an investigation into abuses at the federal detention centers. Another indictment charges state Sen. Eddie Lucio Jr. with profiting from his public office by accepting honoraria from prison management companies.
Information is coming out slowly. I will provide updates as they are released.
BREAKING NEWS: IT LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER JUDGE IS NOW STANDING UP TO BUSH-CHENEY´S "RULE OF TYRANNY!" THE GITMO DETAINEES, MANY OF WHOM WERE HELD WITH NO CAUSE, ARE NOW BEING RELEASED! IS THE CHENEY REIGN OF TERROR OVER?
Judge orders release of 5 Gitmo detainees
WASHINGTON, Nov. 20 (UPI) -- A federal judge in Washington Thursday ordered five Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, prisoners released, saying "seven years is enough" in captivity. U.S. District Judge
Richard J. Leon, in the first ruling that carries out the U.S. Supreme Court's decision on detainee rights, said a single classified document the government used to hold the five wasn't convincing, Scotusblog.com reported. The government claimed, based on the document, the five -- plus one other detainee -- planned to travel to Afghanistan to participate in terrorist activities against U.S. and allied forces.

146 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

This seems more like a pissing match between Guerra and various others in the county for indicting Guerra last year. Payback time for Guerra.

Dee said...

They always say the cover up is worse than the crime.
The part about Cheney having Gonzo cover up the investigation, that is troubling, plus the fact that this incident illustrates the abuses in the heinous detention centers.
"Gonzales is accused of using his position while in office to stop an investigation into abuses at the federal detention centers."

Dee said...

If Obama investigates every dept for corruption as he promised, this may be just the tip of the iceberg. We know about the cronyism in the private prison business with Vanguard Group and with GEO Group.
We also know the suspicious nature of the cronyism with Blackwater and Halliburton.
What else will be uncovered when all the contracts are reviewed and all the cronyism and corruption is finally revealed.

Anonymous said...

Cheney's investment in the Vanguard Group? Are you kidding me? My whole 401K is in the Vanguard Group and is the management group for our hundreds of thousands of employees. It is one of the biggest if not the biggest investment group in the whole country. I guess I should be indicted too. This is absurd.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "this incident illustrates the abuses in the heinous detention centers."

It really doesn't. First of all these are only allegations. Second I see no listing of the so-called heinous abuses. I don't suppose anyone likes to be detained or penned up but that is a far cry from heinous abuses. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Let's see the facts and then decide whether this constitutes heinous abuse or perhaps that this is just more of Dee's hyperbole.

If Gonzo was out of line, let them prove it. He is a Texan, isn't he so they do have jurisdiction. Cheney may not be within the jurisdicition of this grand jury. It would be interesting to know what the true motivation of the jury was and who was on it. Sounds like more politics to me.

Obama is in a position to move quickly install his own cronies as keepers of the keys. Let's see if he does.

ultima said...

If is the same Vanguard Group known for its index funds, then they will have to indict half of the population of the United States.

ultima said...

I guess for the time being Dee has chosen to overlook the role of the new Attorney General designate in the pardon of one of Clinton's felonius contributors. Sounds like Gonzitis is catching or perhaps I should say Holderitis is catching since he came first in the Justice Dept.

ultima said...

"at least misdemeanor assaults"

Let's see this must be like the midemeanors or class 6 felonies related to border violations. Applying that precedent we should expect no punishment, no internal enforcement, no jail time.

Dee said...

Ultima,
The video on the link provide the additional detail, murders, attacks, lack of oversight, abuses within the detention centers.

However, more details are coming about the abuses in the centers.

ultima said...
Dee wrote, "this incident illustrates the abuses in the heinous detention centers."

It really doesn't.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Obviously the grand jury felt there was sufficient evidence for the indictment otherwise they wouldnt have opted to move forward.

Ultima said..
If Gonzo was out of line, let them prove it. He is a Texan, isn't he so they do have jurisdiction. Cheney may not be within the jurisdicition of this grand jury. It would be interesting to know what the true motivation of the jury was and who was on it. Sounds like more politics to me.

Dee said...

From today´s article:

The indictment cites a "money trail" relating to Mr Cheney's financial stake in prison-related businesses, including the Vanguard Group, which has an interest in privately-run federal jails in the region.

According to a grand jury in Willacy County, Mr Cheney is "is "profiteering from depriving human beings of their liberty".

It also accuses him of a conflict of interest and of "at least misdemeanour assaults" on inmates because of his links to the prison companies.

Mr Gonzales is accused of using his position to "stop the investigations as to the wrong doings" in county prisons.

The grand jury wrote that it made its decision "with great sadness" but said it had no other choice but to indict the pair "because we love our country".

Dee said...

More from the article:

Willacy County has become a hub for prisons. Last month, a grand jury indicted the GEO Group, a Florida private prison company, for murder over the death of a Willacy County prisoner just days before his release.

The company stands accused of allowing other inmates to beat Gregorio de la Rosa to death with padlocks stuffed into socks.

In 2006, a jury ordered the company to pay de la Rosa's family $47.5 million in a civil judgment. The Cheney-Gonzales indictment makes reference to the de la Rosa case.

Dee said...

More:

It is not the first time that the vice president's business interests have provoked controversy.

His relationship with Halliburton, the energy company of which he was once chief executive, was scrutinised after one of its subsidiaries won contracts worth more than $1.7 billion to repair Iraq's oil industry.

Anonymous said...

So because someone has an investment in a company, they are guilty by association? You better look at your own investments, Dee.

analisa said...

Dee,

As always, thank you for keeping us informed. Ultima as always can't
back up his information.

Bravo dee!

Dee said...

Anon,
What you are missing is the cover up by Gonzo. He was directed by Cheney.
My... doesn´t that soudn familiar? As in the Libby case and the outing of the CIA coverup?

I have learned in business that it is NOT the crime that gets you!IT is the coverup!!

Cheney SHOULD HAVE learned that lesson long ago.

Anon, allow me to give you one more hint. Look up GEO Group in Google-Wikipedia. All is revealed there!!

Analisa said...

Dee,

I did not write the following, even if it expresses my sentiments rather well:

"Dee,

As always, thank you for keeping us informed. Ultima as always can't
back up his information.

Bravo dee!"

Dee, these ANTIs remind of five-year-old children. And Liquid has the nerve to patronize me about my age. Liquid and Ultima, don't you think it's about time you grew up? I take it you are both older men, too, based on Dee's past comments to you.

I think the reason they play this game is that they can't forgive me for exposing them as white supremacists. Liquid, are you still hanging with Hrac? The next time you goose step on over to his site, say "howdy" for to your self-professed white nationalist (NAZI) friend for me, k?

Dee, you and I are going to have to come up with a code so that you will know when it's me instead of Liquidmicro or Ultima - or both(I only go by whoever is following the thread at the moment as the most likely suspects). Liquidmicro, at your age, too! Pretty pathetic.

Analisa

analisa said...

Dee,

I am glad to hear that Cheney has finally been indicted for the horrible abuses in these detention centers. You are usually the first to report on issues like this, so I really appreciate your blog. And it's nice to hear an intelligent voice in this sea of ANTI stupidity. Too bad it's wasted on them. I did say that. People who are truly secure in themselves have no need to scapegoat other - or play childish games with other people.

Well, I don't have much time to comment this evening, so I'm signing off for the night. Have a good evening, y'all (yeah, even the 'good old boys'.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said...

What game is it that I'm being blamed for?? You make many, many assumptions, I will contribute that to your age. Why would either Ultima or myself write anything and leave your name??

Exposing who as White Supremests?? There is a difference between a White Supremest and a White Nationalist and a Nationalist. I suggest you learn the difference, especially if you are as you claim, a graduate student. Your only claim to this entire immigration issue is race, you are blinded by it. Try looking up the difference between a Globalist/Cosmopolite and a Nationalist, it might help you understand the debate a little better. These are words of wisdom from someone who 'is' older than you in all matters of the word.

LMJ said...

Analisa

May I suggest creating a gmail (google.com) account, that way your name you post under will show up as a link rather than typing it

Dee said...

Analisa,
I agree with LMJ. Try setting up a google account. That way it will be yours and we can id you that way.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Are you admitting you are a White Nationalist?


Liquidmicro said...
Exposing who as White Supremests?? There is a difference between a White Supremest and a White Nationalist and a Nationalist.

Analisa said...

"What game is it that I'm being blamed for?? You make many, many assumptions..." - liquidmicro

How does it feel, liquid? You make many, many assumptions about Latinos. Somehow I don't feel too sorry for you... Nor do I regret naming you after eavesdropping on your little conversation on Hrac's site - birds of a feather, I say.

Analisa said...

LMJ and Dee,

Thanks so much for that tip!

Analisa

LMJ said...

Man, talk about some scary worthless information that hran blog has, I thought at first that the company pc would block the site due to the hate content but I was able to check it out

I think it's hilarious that patriot and all the other ANTI's do all their Dee bashing other there, lol, childish

Dee said...

BREAKING NEWS EVERYONE!
IT LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER JUDGE IS NOW STANDING UP TO BUSH-CHENEY´S "RULE OF LAW!" THE GITMO DETAINEES, MANY OF WHOM WERE HELD WITH NO CAUSE, ARE NOW BEING RELEASED! IS THE CHENEY REIGN OF TERROR OVER?

Judge orders release of 5 Gitmo detainees

WASHINGTON, Nov. 20 (UPI) -- A federal judge in Washington Thursday ordered five Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, prisoners released, saying "seven years is enough" in captivity.

U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon, in the first ruling that carries out the U.S. Supreme Court's decision on detainee rights, said a single classified document the government used to hold the five wasn't convincing, Scotusblog.com reported. The government claimed, based on the document, the five -- plus one other detainee -- planned to travel to Afghanistan to participate in terrorist activities against U.S. and allied forces.

ultima said...

Dee said, "Obviously the grand jury felt there was sufficient evidence for the indictment otherwise they wouldnt have opted to move forward."

That is self-evident. My question related to what the next step might be particularly for anyone who is not a resident of Texas. In other words, what does this really mean? I'm not a Texas lawyer so perhaps those who live in Texas might enlighten us about the next steps, jurisdiction over federal officials, etc.

ultima said...

Dee wrote,"BREAKING NEWS EVERYONE!
IT LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER JUDGE IS NOW STANDING UP TO BUSH-CHENEY´S "RULE OF LAW!" THE GITMO DETAINEES, MANY OF WHOM WERE HELD WITH NO CAUSE, ARE NOW BEING RELEASED! IS THE CHENEY REIGN OF TERROR OVER?"

I hope they took a DNA sample so that when their remains show up in the rubble of another WTC-like facility we watch as Dee eats a large quantity of crow. We could easily transplant this post back before 9/11 and apply it to those who were taking flying lessons. How would that have prevented 9/11? Doesn't sound like there is even modicum of understanding of the terrorist problem. It isn't the ones we know about that are going to hurt us. It will be those we don't know or ignore until after the fact. If you want to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.

ultima said...

lmj wrote, "I think it's hilarious that patriot and all the other ANTI's do all their Dee bashing other there."

Now, that is a really weird comment since we all have been accused of Dee bashing on this site.

Dee said...

I think the Prosecutor in this case has an interesting background. Many here aways talk about Latino payback. In this case, the Prosecutor DID, in fact, pay back!

"Guerra grew up in a family of migrant farmworkers that followed the harvests between the Rio Grande Valley and California. He worked his way through a local college and earned a law degree in 1989. After two years practicing law out of a mechanic's garage, he was appointed district attorney following his predecessor's death. For more than a decade, Guerra has helped law students in Monterrey, Mexico push for judicial reform in that country."

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "According to a grand jury in Willacy County, Mr Cheney is "is "profiteering from depriving human beings of their liberty".

I guess were are going to have to lock up all the investors and owners of privately operated prisons because they are "depriving human beings of their liberty."

Sound like this grand jury is on very shaky ground.

I do not defend Cheney or Gonzo if they are guilty as charges. Let's wait for the verdict or even the trial before we jump to conclusions. I wonder how many on the grand jury had relatives in detention. If any, they should have recused themselves. Of course, they wouldn't have to be a relative; they could just be like Dee with the attitude that an illegal can do no wrong, or is that an oxymoron?

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "In this case, the Prosecutor DID, in fact, pay back!"

Pay back for what? Why I am I not surprised that Guerro found his cause here? Does he have relative or former students in detention? If Guerra was indicted last year, has it ever occurred to anyone that he may have deserved it? Where are the details of that indictment?

ultima said...

Analisa wrote, "Dee, you and I are going to have to come up with a code so that you will know when it's me instead of Liquidmicro or Ultima - or both(I only go by whoever is following the thread at the moment as the most likely suspects). Liquidmicro, at your age, too! Pretty pathetic."

Dee, please inform Analisa that I never post under any name other than ultima and that she should apologize or go back to her sandbox.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Bush-Cheney ruled under the Rule of Terror! Many in gitmo were just tourists. There was never any just cause.
The same for the Detention Centers. most were merely civil infractions. Whole families were thrown into crime, vermin infested crony owned private prisons.
Most who worked there were AFRAID to speak openly about the abuses, including my cousin.
Now, that the reign of terror is OVER, we will see these indictments are JUST THE TIP of the Iceberg! The dirty laundry will ALL come out now!
I suspect we WILL see even MORE indictments against both Cheney AND Bush under the Obama Administration!!

ultima said...

Dee wrote. "The video on the link provide the additional detail, murders, attacks, lack of oversight, abuses within the detention centers."

I will study it. A good policy is defined not by its excellence but by its outcome: if it isn't effective it can't be virtuous.

Dee said...

Ulty,
I know it was not you nor Liquid posting under her name, but someone, NOT HER, was posting under her name. That is why both LMJ and I provided her advice to set up a google ID.
I believe it was one of the anonymous that did it. Either Michael or Pat or another person I can think of that loves to bash me.

Analisa, just as an fyi, I do not believe it was either Ulty or Liquid. I do think it was one of the heinous Anons. Ulty and Liquid are both too pompous to waste their times to do something that stupid. But I DO like them both on my blog. You too!!

ultima said...
Dee, please inform Analisa that I never post under any name other than ultima and that she should apologize or go back to her sandbox.

November 20, 2008 5:49 PM

ultima said...

Analisa wrote, "Ultima as always can't
back up his information."

You'll have to be more specific if you want this vague unsupported charge to stand up. What information did I present as fact that I was unable to back up? Quotes from my posts, please, to back up your charges.

ultima said...

"The indictment, which had not yet been signed by the presiding judge, was one of seven released Tuesday in a county that has been a source of bizarre legal and political battles in recent years. Another of the indictments named a state senator on charges of profiting from his position."

ultima said...

March 22, 2007 - 11:29PM
By FERNANDO DEL VALLE
RAYMONDVILLE - Willacy County District Attorney Juan Angel Guerra was in the county jail Thursday facing three felony indictments.

Warrants were out for the arrest of Guerra's longtime secretary Ofelia Guerrero and District Attorney's Office investigator Marte Guillen, who each face a first-degree felony charge of theft by public servant.

Raymondville police arrested Guerra late Thursday morning after a grand jury handed down three indictments Wednesday night.

Nueces County state District Judge Nanette Hasette set bail at $10,500.

"I believe the charges are legitimate and I have every faith they will be sustained," said Gus Garza, the special prosecutor in the investigation.

Gilberto Hinojosa, the longtime Cameron County judge who represents Guerra, argued Garza and state District Judge Migdalia Lopez violated a state appeals court order that he claimed halted the grand jury investigation of Guerra.

Hinojosa argued Lopez and Garza's alleged bias against Guerra slanted the investigation.

Garza denied the claim, arguing the grand jury called for the investigation of Guerra.

"This is the work of the grand jury and I think that will answer the allegations against Judge Lopez and special prosecutor Garza," Garza said.

Lopez said law prohibited her from commenting on cases before her court.

Guerra faces felony charges of theft, attempted theft and a separate indictment alleging tampering with governmental records, perjury and abuse of official capacity.

Two charges stem from Guerra's attempt to shut down Connie & Fina Bail Bond Co., while a charge against Guerra, Guerrero and Guillen stems from alleged use of county property for personal use, according to court documents.

"They really stretched things to try to make a case," Hinojosa said. "It's an abuse of the judicial system."

A first-degree felony theft charge alleges Guerra, Guerrero and Guillen used $200,000 or more worth of county manpower and office equipment for their personal use from June 1997 to December 2006.

Hinojosa said the charge stems from Guerra's use of drug forfeiture funds to pay Guerrero and Guillen.

"You can ask every single DA in the Rio Grande Valley and every one of them use drug forfeiture money to supplement the salary of staff," Hinojosa said.

But Garza flatly denied the charge stems from the use of drug forfeiture funds to pay Guerrero and Guillen.

Guerra also faces a four-count indictment of tampering with governmental records, perjury and abuse of official capacity.

The second-degree felony charges Guerra with false entry in a governmental record when he filed a petition for a temporary injunction against Connie & Fina Bail Bond Co. on April 17, 2006, falsely alleging the company was over its bonding limit, according to the indictment. Guerra filed the action "knowing the statement was false and intending to defraud and harm" Connie & Fina Bond Co., the indictment states.

An attempted theft charge stems from Guerra's alleged demand of $10,000 from Connie & Fina Bail Bond Co., according to court documents.

The third-degree felony alleges Guerra threatened to shut down the company if it failed to give him $10,000 in cash.

Guerra faced a similar charge when he was arrested Feb. 11, Hinojosa said. Feb. 23, Raymondville Municipal Judge Hector "Tiger" Huerta dismissed the charge along with two other felony theft charges that stemmed from the grand jury's investigation.

Guerra has argued he had the authority to request $10,000 to pay lawsuit judgments that the county filed against the bonding company because it allegedly couldn't cover bonds set on defendants who failed to appear in court.

Hinojosa argued Lopez and Garza violated a 13th Court of Appeals order that halted the ongoing grand jury investigation of Guerra.

In response, he planned to file a motion to cite Lopez and Garza for contempt of court, Hinojosa said.

But District Clerk Gilbert Lozano said the court's order did not bar the grand jury from meeting on its own, without Garza and special prosecutor Mervyn Mosbacker, a former U.S. attorney in Houston.

ultima said...

From the above it looks like grand juries are not entirely infallible.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "His relationship with Halliburton, the energy company of which he was once chief executive, was scrutinised after one of its subsidiaries won contracts worth more than $1.7 billion to repair Iraq's oil industry."

What was the outcome? Was he exonerated of all charges?

Analisa said...

ultima writes:

'Analisa wrote, "Ultima as always can't back up his information.'
-ultima

ultima, what makes you think I wrote that? Have you been following what's going on at all? Someone is pretending to be me - an act of identity theft and fraud - which is pretty serious in my view. I fought back in the only way I could: by naming the most likely suspects: the ANTIs who were following the thread at that moment. For the record: I am NOT somebody you can push around like you are in the habit of doing to undocumented immigrants. You are used to picking on the most vulnerable people - that makes you bullies in my view. So, I can't say I feel too bad about the mistake - IF there was one.

Moreover, I saw what you were saying about me on Hran's site, and I agree with LMJ's assessment of that site:

"talk about some scary worthless information that hran blog has, I thought at first that the company pc would block the site due to the hate content..."

I'll apologize when you stop talking about me and Dee with a self-professed white supremacist Nazi. Why do you keep company with someone like this? Answer me that, ultima!

Analisa said...

Dee said:

"Ulty and Liquid are both too pompous to waste their times to do something that stupid."

Dee, I think you have their number. he,he. ;-)

Analisa

Dee said...

Ulty,
Hereiswhat I found about Cheney and Halliburton from a 2004 article:

The Halliburton Company secretly changed its accounting practices when Vice President Dick Cheney was its chief executive, the Securities and Exchange Commission said yesterday as it fined the company $7.5 million and brought actions against two former financial officials.

The commission said the accounting change enabled Halliburton, one of the nation's largest energy services companies, to report annual earnings in 1998 that were 46 percent higher than they would have been had the change not been made. It also allowed the company to report a substantially higher profit in 1999, the commission said.

The commission did not say that Mr. Cheney acted improperly, and the papers released by the commission did not detail the extent to which he was aware of the change or of the requirement to disclose it to investors. The S.E.C. said that Mr. Cheney had testified under oath and had ''cooperated willingly and fully in the investigation conducted by the commission's career staff.''

SO ULTY IT DID NOT SAY EITHER WAY ... Probably a Political Move!

Dee said...

More:

The record notes that he has been a “businessman” but fails to mention the five extraordinarily lucrative years that he spent, immediately before becoming Vice-President, as chief executive of Halliburton, the world’s largest oil-and-gas-services company. The conglomerate, which is based in Houston, is now the biggest private contractor for American forces in Iraq; it has received contracts worth some eleven billion dollars for its work there.

Cheney earned forty-four million dollars during his tenure at Halliburton. Although he has said that he “severed all my ties with the company,” he continues to collect deferred compensation worth approximately a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, and he retains stock options worth more than eighteen million dollars. He has announced that he will donate proceeds from the stock options to charity.

Such actions have not quelled criticism. Halliburton has become a favorite target for Democrats, who use it as shorthand for a host of doubts about conflicts of interest, undue corporate influence, and hidden motives behind Bush Administration policy—in particular, its reasons for going to war in Iraq.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
Are you admitting you are a White Nationalist?


What I am saying is that I am a White male who is a Nationalist and not a Globalist.

Analisa said...

liquidmicro writes:

"Your only claim to this entire immigration issue is race, you are blinded by it." - liquidmicro


liquid,

speaking of unfounded assumptions, I am half white myself. I can pass as white. against my better judgement (because frankly, you people scare me), I put my picture on my site so you can see this. I envy my beautiful mother with her coffee brown skin. you are the one blinded by race. Are you afraid of we might spill some of our lovely coffee or chocolate flavors on your pristine vanilla? Oh, excuse me, I mean your "neutral vanilla"- flavored conception of America. I am mixed race and proud of it.

Analisa

ultima said...

Analisa wrote, "I put my picture on my site so you can see this."

What is the address for your site. I want to see this picture.

As Dee can tell you long ago I praised the golden brown beauties in San Antone, especially in their summer white dresses that accentuated their beauty. While I don't your beauty or that of your mother, your incessant sarcasm ill-becomes you.

ultima said...

Ana wrote, "I mean your "neutral vanilla"- flavored conception of America."

Isn't his a racist comment? You know racism, your favorite word, is not a one way street. Here you are impugning the caucasian race! Shame on you.

This is such a ridiculous argument, one that can only be attributed to some sort of paranoia about your mixed race status. If you would remove that chip from your shoulder for a minute, you would be able to realize that we all know that America consists of many races and many mixtures and that is not going to change no matter what we say here or do. Now that we have that cleared up maybe we can get on to some more germane issues: the population explosion, the extinction of species (polar bears are eating each other for lack of their usual food), finite natural resources, pollution generated by people not races by people, too many of them; our declining fisheries, grain harvests per capita, timber, minerals,petroleum,etc. All of things add up to a huge problem for us that will change our way of life and standard of living forever. Focusing narrowly on issues and non issues of race will do nothing to solve those problems as you well know but are reluctant to admit and discuss openly and rationally without resorting to name calling. I know you have a special sensitivity about race but try to get beyond it. If you are an educated person, you should be able to think beyond that narrow boundary. I promise to respect you mixed race if you promise to stick to the real issues. Race is non-starter for any rational discussion of the problems facing our nation.

You may still feel some latent discrimination in your job and educational endeavors but there probably is no reason for it other than your own paranoia.

If you want to share some of the experiences that formed your present attitudes, that would be useful contribution. We could then understand you better and perhaps be able to excuse some of your outbursts of petulism. I'm certainly willing to try but you have to meet me halfway, if you don't feel too threatened by an old Gringo.

ultima said...

Ana why did you say this, "you are the one blinded by race."

Must you interpret everything in racial terms. Try to get over it, it ill-becomes a person who is supposed to be educated. No one is blinded by race. Race is a fact, and racial mixtures are a fact. Get over it.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Are you admitting you are a White Nationalist?"

Is admitting that one is white somehow a crime, when admitting one is a Mexican is not?

One of the definitions in my thesaurus for a nationalist is patriot. Surely, you don't consider patriot some sort of pejorative term, do you? Maybe you do with your illegal alien orientation in which place greater value on them then you do on your fellow citizens.

Is that in the national interest?

"It is both a right and a responsibility of a democratic society to manage immigration so that it serves the national interest." U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer, (D., California)

It seems that what you and Ana are proposing is just the opposite of managing immigration, both legal and illegal, for purposes of your own rather than the national interest.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "The commission did not say that Mr. Cheney acted improperly, and the papers released by the commission did not detail the extent to which he was aware of the change or of the requirement to disclose it to investors."

I have long been an advocate of strengthening rather than weakening Sarbane Oxley. I believe that CEOs must ask their CFOs whether all financial reports submitted for their signatures are in full accord with generally accepted accounting principles and that there have been no questionable changes in accounting treatment, offshore dealings,etc. that would adversely affect the companys' reputations and its stockholders and employees. I would get it in writing because when as a CEO I sign off on those reports I must be held fully accountable. I have long advocated escrowing the proceeds from the exercise of stock options for five years and if any rosy forecasts made of the company's profits and increase in value don't hold up, those proceeds must be forfeited. Likewise, if any stock in the company is sold by insiders those employees holding company stock in a 401k must be given a month in advance to sell their own shares and roll them over into different mutual fund shares or stocks.

I hold no brief for those insiders who profit at the expense of stockholders and employees. Cheney is no exception. Donating the proceeds from his stock options is a start.

Liquidmicro said...

"Are you afraid of we might spill some of our lovely coffee or chocolate flavors on your pristine vanilla?"


Let em tell you a little about myself, my 'vanilla' is blended with some 'strawberry'. My children are also blended. My first wife was Japanese, I have an 18 year old Daughter and a Son who would have been 15, he past away the day before his 10th Birthday from Brain Stem Glioma. Both are Half Japanese half American. My second wife is Latin, we have 2 daughters, 5 & 2, so don't talk to me about racism or race, that card has been played out.

ultima said...

"vermin infested crony owned private prisons."

Ineffective ad hominem statements and hyperbole doesn't advance your argument.

ultima said...

"I suspect we WILL see even MORE indictments against both Cheney AND Bush under the Obama Administration!!"

I doubt it, not because they are without guilt for one thing another, but because what goes around. comes around. Obama's past associates suggest that he is not simon pure and could easily find himself in a similar situation 4 years hence. If there was some real wrong doing, that's one thing but the usual corruption we have come to expect from our politicians is quite another.

ultima said...

"lack of oversight"

Surely you don't expect the president of the U.S. to provide oversight for a detention center in South Texas. That is really stretch. I'm sure Obama is not going to spend his time touring or monitoring detention centers. Guard abuse of prisoners wherever you find them is absolutely nothing new. It's the kind of people they are able to hire for these jobs that is the problem, like some of those hired by nursing homes who proceed to abuse the helpless. There needs to be a way to enable detainees to make complaints without placing themselves in greater jeopardy. Self-deportation is easiest way out of a difficulty situation like that where that is possible.

Liquidmicro said...

"Analisa said...

"What game is it that I'm being blamed for?? You make many, many assumptions..." - liquidmicro

How does it feel, liquid? You make many, many assumptions about Latinos. Somehow I don't feel too sorry for you... Nor do I regret naming you after eavesdropping on your little conversation on Hrac's site - birds of a feather, I say."


What assumptions have I made about Latino's?? Please post them.

Eavesdropping on Hran's sight?? Its the web, the site is an open site, anybody can read it, anybody can post on it. Dee knew about Hran's sight, she has even visited there when Hran first started posting on her site.

Liquidmicro said...

"I'll apologize when you stop talking about me and Dee with a self-professed white supremacist Nazi."

Obviously you have yet to read anything Hran has stated either here, on Dee's blog, or on his. You, like Dee, equate the terms 'white' and 'Nationalist' with Nazism and KKK. Your blinded by the inability to comprehend in context, words and the meanings implied. Your equating is nothing more than mere word association. Learn a new vocabulary and comprehend the context of the discussion, it might make you a better, more intelligent person later in life, as they say, knowledge is power.

Liquidmicro said...

Identification and cohesion within a ethno-national group has to do with inter-group cooperation, and cooperation is easier for those who are part of the same ethno-national group. To take an example of ethnic ties in a multiethnic state, a Hispanic newcomer to the States will do well to rely on his co-nationals: common language, customs and expectations might help him a lot in finding his way in new surroundings. Once the ties are established and he has become part of a network, it is rational to go on cooperating and ethnic sentiment does secure the trust and the firm bond needed for smooth cooperation.


Would you say this to be true or false??

Tamara said...

Analisa, please stay on topic, personal attacks are not necessary and are childish. This is Dee's blog, not Hran's.

"How does it feel, liquid? You make many, many assumptions about Latinos. Somehow I don't feel too sorry for you... Nor do I regret naming you after eavesdropping on your little conversation on Hrac's site - birds of a feather, I say"

Analisa said...

Liquid, you have NO cause for complaint. You've called me a socialist, a simpleton and a racist against white people without any validation. Half of the time, I don't even bother to react when you trot out these absurdities. Consider the source - that's my view. I have a pretty good sense of humor (to you, it's sarcastic), so I just laugh it off. But the thing that truly upsets me is when you make outrageous allegations about the innocent victims of hate crimes: like Luis Ramirez. Or when you trot out case after case of sordid crimes allegedly committed by Latinos, as if these individual cases somehow add up to a Latino crime wave. I'll say it again: this is a familiar tactic. It was the tactic used by white racists in the Jim Crow South who accused innocent black men of raping white women. It is the despicable tactic of scapegoating innocent people of color, thereby provoking others - even less balanced people - to physically attack them. So, Liquid, j'accuse...I accuse you and all the other white supremacists on this site of contributing to the general climate of hate that led to the murders of Marcelo Lucero and Luis Ramirez. You have abetted these crimes by inciting others to hate. That's my view. But I don't say this in anger...it just makes me terribly sad, really. It's pretty disheartening to listen to these diatribes against Latinos and the undocumented day after day. I'm willing to tamp down my rhetoric towards you. I could stop using terms like racist and racism - but it is my honest opinion that this is what motivates the ANTIs. And what about you? Can we get some decency from you as well - some expression of empathy for the families of Luis Ramirez and Marcelo Lucero?

I have question for you, liquid: What is it that you are so afraid of? That an undocumented horde is coming to rape your daughters? Are the undocumented peoples really such frightening people that you have to circle the wagons? Or is the boogeyman you fear really inside your head and your heart? Why are you trying to whip up hate against Latinos and undocumented immigrants? What purpose does it serve, except to provide you with a convenient target for your own personal frustration and sense of inadequacy? Finally, how interesting that you're willing to withhold judgment of the white teenagers who killed Luis Ramirez and Marcelo Lucero, yet are only too willing to condemn any Latino accused of a crime. Tell me, hombre, do you comprehend the supreme irony with which we PROs view your arguments? No, I suppose not. That might be hoping for too much from you.

Analisa

Dee said...

Analisa,
I must share some info with you.
Both Ultima and Liquid hold a secret love for Latina women.

I know you probably find that unbelievable, but they do. They profess to hold such a strong stand against illegal immigrants and want all 12M to leave our great country, yet, they each have their own secret love for Latinas. I visited your site and saw your beauty. Ultima can only imagine it.

Ultima shared long ago of his love interest for a beautiful Latina in a white dress when he was in San Antonio decades ago. He lusts to see your picture on your site.

Liquid recently married a beautiful Portugese Immigrant. He too admires the Latinas.

Who knows how or why this is so, even as they profess to expell all 12M Latinos-Latinas who came her seeking the American Dream.

ultima said...
Analisa wrote, "I put my picture on my site so you can see this."

What is the address for your site. I want to see this picture.

As Dee can tell you long ago I praised the golden brown beauties in San Antone, especially in their summer white dresses that accentuated their beauty. While I don't your beauty or that of your mother, your incessant sarcasm ill-becomes you.

Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Analisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Liquidmicro said...

"Can we get some decency from you as well - some expression of empathy for the families of Luis Ramirez and Marcelo Lucero?"

I suggest you go back and re-read each topic of Ramirez and Lucero that Dee has blogged. you will note, many times, that I have said Ramirez did not deserve to be beaten the way he was and the Lucero was a hate crime. I have stated that the boys in the Ramirez case should do time in prison and that the boys in the Lucero case should also spend timein prison. Where you fail to understand is that I am objective to the information of each case and state my opinion of the outcome based on those facts.


Oh, please tell me then miss almighty, have you taken comprehension classes in school, because if you have, you need to ask for your money back.

You still fail to look at this entire discussion in the Globalism vs Nationalism view. You really need to get past 'race' as an issue. If you allow them in your house, feel free to house them, I however will not. I instead go to Honduras for a month each year to help them improve their homelands, to try to better their lives their, what is it you do?? other than call those who do not agree with your brown ethnocentric nationalism, racist??

Liquidmicro said...

Here's a simple question for yo Analisa, when the court decides and tries the Ramirez case, and it is then again shown that Ramirez was culpable in his demise, are you going to apologize and say that "Liquid was correct" or are you going to demand the judge be removed for coming to a conclusion you do not agree with??

I will say again, the boys in the Ramirez case should go to prison for the time equal to their crimes.

Analisa said...

Dee,

Thank you for sharing that with me about Liquid and Ultima. It's difficult for me to understand this mindset. How can they claim to "love" Latinas when they are causing so much pain to the people we love? It doesn't compute. I chalk it up to lust myself, and the allure of the "exotic" female. My mother is still beautiful in her fifties, but she was devastatingly beautiful as a young woman. I can still remember the reaction of white men when she would walk into a room: their jaws would literally drop open. However, she was also the victim of racist attitudes on occassion. She speaks perfect English but she has a slight Portuguese accent. It still hurts me when I hear hateful people yelling at her to "Speak English!" She is a lovely person. How can you treat a person like that? My father is also foreigner, but as a Fench man, he never experienced this type of bigoted treatment. My mother has also experienced the same types of prejudiced behavior you've described in one of your comments: people mistaking her for the maid, people following her in department stores, etc.

Now, I've never made the argument that white people are bad or bigoted just because they're white. This is the kind of behavior that characterizes the ANTIs. The PROs have too much decency to behave this way. These are the folks who truly LOVE Latinas, if you ask me.

Thanks for sharing that, Dee. btw, you are a very beautiful woman yourself, just judging from the pic on your blog. :~)

Analisa

Analisa said...

liquidmicro says:

"Here's a simple question for yo Analisa, when the court decides and tries the Ramirez case, and it is then again shown that Ramirez was culpable in his demise, are you going to apologize and say that "Liquid was correct" or are you going to demand the judge be removed for coming to a conclusion you do not agree with??"

That's a lot of assumptions, liquid. how do you know that Ramirez was "culpable in his own demise"?? Have you already tried and judged him yourself? "Plus ca change..."

Liquidmicro said...

My wife has experienced much racial prejudice, but not from the 'White' People. When we walk through the mall, shopping center, anywhere there is a gathering of a large amount of Hispanic people, they all begin talking about her, speaking in Spanish, none of it in good terms of what it is they think of either her or myself. When she turns and looks at them, and responds in Spanish, they get the look of stupidity on their faces. When the men think they are ready to be macho, I turn and look at them, they turn and leave. so, as you can see, most of the racism we have been exposed to is by those who are 'browner' than she is.

You should remember this story Dee, from MATT. If you want and Analisa decides, you can give her my web site address.

Liquidmicro said...

"That's a lot of assumptions, liquid. how do you know that Ramirez was "culpable in his own demise"?? Have you already tried and judged him yourself? "Plus ca change...""


Look to Mrs Garcia's Eye witness accounts. She even has video showing the location of the onslaught and the detailed narration of her own statements. Dee's court testimony has only shown less than 2 minutes of Lawson's testimony, and that is only what the editor/publisher wishes for you to know. We will no more come next week when the judge re-convenes to verify the prosecutions giving to the defendants the evidence they were and have been withholding, which according to the article was nothing more than the autopsy and supplemental medical reports and an Aug. 18 transcript as evidence. Why else is this statement made:

"Baldwin did order prosecutors to provide more information to the defendants’ lawyers about the exact acts they allege the teenagers committed, the exact words they allege the young men said and the exact nature of any alleged agreement by the trio to commit any crimes.

“The commonwealth has not articulated its theory well enough,” Baldwin said in explaining why he ordered prosecutors to provide that information. Neither prosecutors nor the defendants presented any testimony during the hearing. Prosecutors offered into evidence the transcript from the Aug. 18 preliminary hearing, as well as the autopsy and supplemental medical reports on Ramirez, as their case at this stage, and the defendants did not object to Baldwin considering any of those."

Now, how long have you been following this case?? I have since the beginning, along with Dee, I still suggest you go back and start at the beginning.

Liquidmiro said...

So yo are French/Portuguese, not even Latino, but Latin, European descent. Do you get to go back and visit your mothers country, or is she from the Islands, the Azores?? What about France?? Have you ever been to another country at all?? or are you arguing from the perspective of having lived inside the bubble your entire life as Dee has??

Liquidmicro said...

Did you write the poem on your blog, if you did you do have some creative writing ability, i wish you would apply it to your responses and comments, it would suit you much better than the finger pointing, word association that you do.

Analisa said...

My mother is Brazilian. I lived in France for two years when I was young. I have travelled to a number of countries throughout Latin America and Europe The ability to travel is largely a matter of money and class - hence, privilege. Not everyone can afford to do it. I was just fortunate because my father is a lawyer. Thanks for the left-handed compliment, but stop putting on that air of superiority in everything you say, liquid. Really, it gets tiresome.

Analisa

Analisa said...

You and dee have both been following the Ramirez case closely. I've followed it off and on. Dee has read the very same testimony and has an entirely different take on it. Interesting how you've skewed the testimony to fit your prejudices.

Liquidmicro said...

"Interesting how you've skewed the testimony to fit your prejudices."

I take the facts and draw a conclusion, unlike Dee, who has taken the conclusion and points only to the facts that justify it. But like I said, when it all comes out we will see who was right and who was wrong. If I was wrong I'll be the first to admit it, however, if you and Dee are wrong, will you admit it??

Liquidmicro said...

Thanks for the left-handed compliment, but stop putting on that air of superiority in everything you say, liquid.


I'm just trying to get an understanding of why you argue the way you do. Trying to make it a little friendlier vs the back and forth where nothing gets resolved.

So did you write the poem or not?? Or do you have more than 1 blog??

Analisa said...

yes, I wrote that poem...I wrote it for my boyfriend and for all undocumented peoples who are my heros.

Liquidmicro said...

So that is why you argue as you do, the boyfriend. That explains quite a bit, your in the same boat as Robles is. Is that how it is??

Analisa said...

FYI, my boyfriend is a brilliant poet and a Ph.d. candidate at an ivy league university. He just obtained his citizenship, but he lived in fear for many years as an undocumented immigrant. He came here with his parents at the age of six from war-torn Colombia. As a nation, we have spent billions of dollars propping up a country with one of the worst human rights records in the hemisphere. This has created an enormous suffering and a refugee problem. These folks will end up in the United States due to our misguided policies.

liquid, these are the people you are scapegoating - people I love. I would love to have a friendlier exchange with you, but you make it difficult.

Analisa

P.S. People think I have a chip on my shoulder, but I'm not complaining for myself. I look white so I can pass. I've never experienced much discrimination as a result. For my mother and boyfriend, it's a different story.

Liquidmicro said...

Scapegoating?? NO.

Standing up for my country, as a prior soldier and a citizen, believing in the Sovereignty of my nation, I do not believe in globalization, but do agree in fair trade. I'll say but one thing:

Globalization means that soon, we, too, might be working for pennies an hour. It’s like Adam Smith in reverse: trade with people less free than you, and your own freedom is threatened.

John Bowe

Liquidmicro said...

Analisa,
You have great creative writing skill, very impressed with it.

To Catch a Muse

Deaf Orchestra

Woundings



very impressive, I must say.

Anonymous said...

Funny how you just kind of glossed over this, analisa. What's the matter? Doesn't it fit your template of whites as the racists? Maybe you have been fortunate in your elite upbringing not to have experienced this racism from non-whites, but it does exist as many of us can attest to, just as Liquidmicro did. There are many more stories just like that one and even much worse.

Liquidmicro said:
"My wife has experienced much racial prejudice, but not from the 'White' People. When we walk through the mall, shopping center, anywhere there is a gathering of a large amount of Hispanic people, they all begin talking about her, speaking in Spanish, none of it in good terms of what it is they think of either her or myself. When she turns and looks at them, and responds in Spanish, they get the look of stupidity on their faces. When the men think they are ready to be macho, I turn and look at them, they turn and leave. so, as you can see, most of the racism we have been exposed to is by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Dee said...

Ulty,
The case was thrown out!
HE IS INNOCENT!!

ultima said...
If Guerra was indicted last year, has it ever occurred to anyone that he may have deserved it? Where are the details of that indictment?

Dee said...

Liquid,
I would say this sounds like the movie "The Godfather" 1, 2 and 3. Also like the Sopranos.
How about the "Gangs of New York."
"The Flower Drum Song"
(i could go on and on and on and on)

All part of American History.



Liquidmicro said...
Identification and cohesion within a ethno-national group has to do with inter-group cooperation, and cooperation is easier for those who are part of the same ethno-national group. To take an example of ethnic ties in a multiethnic state, a Hispanic newcomer to the States will do well to rely on his co-nationals: common language, customs and expectations might help him a lot in finding his way in new surroundings. Once the ties are established and he has become part of a network, it is rational to go on cooperating and ethnic sentiment does secure the trust and the firm bond needed for smooth cooperation.

Dee said...

Analisa,
You are right. I get the same treatment at times from him.



Analisa said...
Liquid, you have NO cause for complaint. You've called me a socialist, a simpleton and a racist against white people without any validation. Half of the time, I don't even bother to react when you trot out these absurdities. Consider the source - that's my view.

Dee said...

I will respond to Liquids post. Liquid is a blond, 6 ft plus, John Wayne type of guy. His wife is a beautiful, small/short by comparison, Latina.
I am sure she "gets the look" from the White people (women), although you may not notice it Liquid.
Your situation sounds like my husband and me. My husband is a big Irishman. He is 6ft and is muscular; looks like a muscular lumberjack. When I was young I was very hot. Believe me, we did get the looks from both sides although my husband was also oblivious to it.
There is a race hierarchy in this country. I love Chris Rock. He tells it like it is. He said now that Obama is president, blacks moved up a level. Now it is Whites, Blacks, Gays, then Latinos/Asian.
Funny but this is the perception of many in our country.
Many Whites do believe they are at the top of the ladder.
Many Minorities feel like they are 2nd class vs Whites who often receive preferential treatment. So they feel like they are in a club with other minorities. Blacks with Blacks. Orientals with Orientals. Latinos with Latinos but we have such varied groups, we also often include Native Americans into our ranks.
I am about to say something controversial here so be ready.
Minorities nod at each other and give each other a special look when we walk by. It is our sisterhood-brotherhood. Blacks do the same. Orientals the same. We nod and acknowledge ourselves as equals. As Americans. As being the best we can be under the conditions we live in.
Now in 2008 however, many of us feel we are entering a new stage in our country with Obama as President. Perhaps we will all be equal one day, as our founding fathers promised.
That is all any minority wants. Not superiority, just equality.
The comments to your wife, the looks, may have been envious, believing that your wife obtained this equality by going outside of her race. They run from you because of the persecution they would receive by you or the cops.
I am sure many White people, the women, look at you believing you could have done better. The men envy you for the xxx. Obviously you are oblivious to all this.


Liquidmicro said:
"My wife has experienced much racial prejudice, but not from the 'White' People. When we walk through the mall, shopping center, anywhere there is a gathering of a large amount of Hispanic people, they all begin talking about her, speaking in Spanish, none of it in good terms of what it is they think of either her or myself. When she turns and looks at them, and responds in Spanish, they get the look of stupidity on their faces. When the men think they are ready to be macho, I turn and look at them, they turn and leave. so, as you can see, most of the racism we have been exposed to is by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Dee said...

Analisa,
Careful...
Sounds like Liquid is starting a new debate strategy with you.

Inverse ad hominem
An inverse ad hominem argument praises a person in order to add support for that person's argument or claim. A fallacious inverse ad hominem argument may go something like this:

"That man was smartly-dressed and charming, so I'll accept his argument that I should vote for him"

Liquidmicro said...
Analisa,
You have great creative writing skill, very impressed with it.

Jordan said...

Correct me if I am wrong, but Liquidmicro indicated that his wife was from Portugal. That is in Europe. Which means that she is white. So, do not differentiate between Liquid's wife and "whites." She is white.

French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian are European Latins, but they are no less "Caucasian" than the British, Germans, Scandinavians, Irish, Greeks or Eastern Europeans.

Can we please stop creating a separate category for whites of Spanish/Portuguese heritage?

Jordan said...

"The conditions we live under??" My God, Dee. Just what horrible conditions are you living in in the 21st century?! We are no longer living in the Jim Crow South!

Exactly what is your personal situation? Maybe I am judging incorrectly. I was under the impression that you were a college educated woman, living in relative comfort. Please correct my assumption if I am wrong.

Liquidmicro said...

Have you read Analisa's writings Dee?? I suggest you do, she does have some good creative writing ability. Just because we may not see eye to eye on something does not mean she can not be complimented when and where it is deserved. Why are you trying to keep division with people?? She clearly has some ability, I would like to see her expand on it, and why not, whether it is her passion or not, she has creativeness.

Liquidmicro said...

Glad to see you picked up on that Jordan, my description did leave my wife as Latin, not Latino.

Jordan said...

Also, I believe from reading Liquidmicros acutal words that he and his wife have actually heard with their own ears derogatory remarks made towards them by people who did not realize that they understood Spanish. So, there was no mistaking what their intentions were.

Liquidmicro said...

Funny how people who can 'read' what is said and understand what is meant by the words vs how people 'read' into what they think they should perceive.

Thank you, Jordan!!

Jordan said...

Well, Liquid as a person of Italian/French ancestry myself I am keenly aware of the designation.

Jordan said...

No problemo, Liquidmicro!:)

Analisa said...

Liquid,

Thank you for the compliment. I believe you are being sincere, so I appreciate it. Writing is one of my passions. Writers are notorious critics, so I usually write under a pseudonym - usually a variation on my name: Lisa or Ana. I'm surprised you found me.

Analisa

Analisa said...

Dee,

I'm sorry I had to leave early last night, so I couldn't follow up on your comments. You make a good point about fallacious arguments - i.e. the inverse ad hominem strategy. However, I think that Liquid is being sincere. He probably knows that he won't succeed in changing my views on the issue of immigation. I would have to turn my back on the people I love. That will never happen.
But I appreciate your protective instincts. Don't worry, I'm a pretty perceptive person...I generally pick up on people's strategies - like Pat, who was always trying to get a rise out of me in any way he could. Ah Pat - his little tantrums were so dramatic and spectacular, I almost miss the poor fellow. he,he. ;-)

Analisa

Analisa said...

Liquid and Ultima, I apologize for naming you as the culprit who was stealing my identity. I was wrong. I'm almost positive it was Pat, now. It was distressing to have someone putting words in my mouth. So I had to come up with some strategy to smoke him out. In the end, he outed himself. I'm sorry I got you involved in it. I mean that sincerely.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
I would say this sounds like the movie "The Godfather" 1, 2 and 3. Also like the Sopranos.
How about the "Gangs of New York."
"The Flower Drum Song"
(i could go on and on and on and on)

All part of American History.


That was my point Dee, you can insert any ethnicity into where I placed Hispanic and the outcome 99 out of 100 times is the exact same. Now, as to the point, it shows directly how this debate is, you claim to be Mexican-American, Hispanic, and coddle an wish for as many more like you to be here. The problem is, better yet the question I pose to you is, how many other Hispanics are you friends with either at work or in your 'gated' community?? Do you feel so alone that you have to feel the need for more to be near you?? What exactly is the motivation??

Liquidmicro said...

I found you due to your linked name here on Dee's site, the small blog you have with the Poem 'Woundings'. I googled a few sentences and it found your other blog with the other writings. As I said, you do have some creativity in writing, very explicit, very descriptive, draws in the reader. Stay with it.

As for changing your mind about the immigration issue, that's not the goal. The goal is to have you/me/everyone understand the scope of the problem and try to resolve, at least to us, some if not all the issues. Research is your friend, do a lot of reading, go back to some of the earlier comments and topics of Dee's blog, note what all of us have said.

Liquidmicro said...

It was not Pat whom was posting under your name, I can attest to that. Like Dee, I think it was an anonymous poster playing games. I, too, think it should stop.

Dee said...

Jordan,
Tell us about yourself.
Do not be afraid.

Also, I think you may be a bit off here. Liquid said his wife was approached. Her not talking spanish. Read the line "browner than she is." Do you get it now?

NOW GO BACK AND READ WHAT I WROTE!!
Duhhh!!



Jordan said...
Also, I believe from reading Liquidmicros acutal words that he and his wife have actually heard with their own ears derogatory remarks made towards them by people who did not realize that they understood Spanish. So, there was no mistaking what their intentions were.

Liquidmicro said:
"My wife has experienced much racial prejudice, but not from the 'White' People. When we walk through the mall, shopping center, anywhere there is a gathering of a large amount of Hispanic people, they all begin talking about her, speaking in Spanish, none of it in good terms of what it is they think of either her or myself. When she turns and looks at them, and responds in Spanish, they get the look of stupidity on their faces. When the men think they are ready to be macho, I turn and look at them, they turn and leave. so, as you can see, most of the racism we have been exposed to is by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Dee said...

Liquid,
You are a lost cause. How many friends do you have? Yourself I suppose. Not much more with your ego. How many Portugese friends do you or your wife have? I suspect none.

My husband and I have many friends of all ethnicities. We believe in an equal world. I am very close to my children and their friends and families as well as my sisters, brothers, my nieces-nephews, and my friends from work. Again, all ethcities.

As I have mentioned from the beginning, I am concerned about the Immigration issues and am a strong advocate of CIR. I strongly advocate putting an end to Racial Profiling and HATE Crimes. I will do all in my power to put an end to them.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I recall once, when you were having a fight with your wife, I provided you advice. To please, for once, let her know she was right.

Did you ever do that or did you keep to your stance of always being right?

You never did reply.
I know you ego probably never allowed you to give in.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Just to add, my sons are God´s gift to me. I love them very, very much! They are strong, handsome, intelligent, successful, and they love their mom!
I can say the same for my grandsons!!!

They are my life´s rewards!!!

Analisa said...

liquidmicro writes:
"as to the point, it shows directly how this debate is, you claim to be Mexican-American, Hispanic, and coddle an wish for as many more like you to be here. The problem is, better yet the question I pose to you is, how many other Hispanics are you friends with either at work or in your 'gated' community?? Do you feel so alone that you have to feel the need for more to be near you?? What exactly is the motivation??"

Ay, que lastima...I try be nice and then you go beat up on Dee! How low can you go, liquid?? Leave this lovely lady alone!!!

I'm signing off for the night. Had my fill of your racist banter.

Analisa

Liquidmicro said...

"Dee said...

Jordan,
Tell us about yourself.
Do not be afraid.

Also, I think you may be a bit off here."


Actually Dee, Jordan was right on, you are the one off. You have seen the picture of my wife, she is not 'brown' but white, therefor being 'brown' would be browner than she is. You must read what was said not what you perceive the words to be.

Liquidmicro said...

"Dee said...

Liquid,
I recall once, when you were having a fight with your wife, I provided you advice. To please, for once, let her know she was right.'


There was no fight, I was describing an instance. Again you perceive what it is you think the outcome is. You fail to read and comprehend the words, quit trying to read into what is written.

Dee said...

Ok Liquid.
I will bite.
What did they say to her.

Liquid said...
Liquidmicro said:
"My wife has experienced much racial prejudice, but not from the 'White' People. When we walk through the mall, shopping center, anywhere there is a gathering of a large amount of Hispanic people, they all begin talking about her, speaking in Spanish, none of it in good terms of what it is they think of either her or myself. When she turns and looks at them, and responds in Spanish, they get the look of stupidity on their faces. When the men think they are ready to be macho, I turn and look at them, they turn and leave. so, as you can see, most of the racism we have been exposed to is by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Dee said...

You are the one who said she understood them. What did she tell you they said?

Liquidmicro said...

Oh, Analisa, life is not all cookies and cream. I simply made a point, explained my point and posed simple questions. You call that racism?? How deluded you are to reality, how little you truly know about any of us.

Argue the point, don't point the finger, because when you close your hand that very finger points back at yourself.

Dee said...

Ok Liquid.
I will bite.
What did they say to her.

And if YOU THINK were NOT referencing her skin color, why did you SAY "by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Liquid said...
Liquidmicro said:
"My wife has experienced much racial prejudice, but not from the 'White' People. When we walk through the mall, shopping center, anywhere there is a gathering of a large amount of Hispanic people, they all begin talking about her, speaking in Spanish, none of it in good terms of what it is they think of either her or myself. When she turns and looks at them, and responds in Spanish, they get the look of stupidity on their faces. When the men think they are ready to be macho, I turn and look at them, they turn and leave. so, as you can see, most of the racism we have been exposed to is by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Liquidmicro said...

There is nothing for you to 'bite', you just need to read the words that where said, not read into what you think was said. Very simple really.

Dee said...

Liquid.
What did they say to her.

And if YOU THINK were NOT referencing her skin color, why did you SAY "by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Dee said...

Quit Backpeddling Liquid.
Be Brave!
What did they say to her.

And if YOU THINK were NOT referencing her skin color, why did you SAY "by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Liquidmicro said...

Look at that bitch, she looks like a Barbie. Only whites care to look like that. She probably has no money unless she stands on the corner.

Their men began with the cat calls, so I stood up. She responded back to them in Spanish and put them in their place, they all walked away, when they were almost out the door they turned and cursed us and then flipped us off.

Liquidmicro said...

"why did you SAY "by those who are 'browner' than she is.""

Because anybody with a tan would be 'browner' than my wife. You have seen her picture, she has no brown skin. Jordan explained to you the difference between Latin and Latino, again you must read the words and put them in to context, not perception.

Dee said...

Nice flip here Liquid.

Sounds like a bunch of construction workers.

I know. Its your story and you are sticking to it.

Dee said...

Actually, I thought your wife does look ethnic and just a little lighter than me, with the same hair color.

Liquidmicro said...

The men may have been construction workers, or just laborers, I have no idea, this was on a Saturday, it was the women who began it, pushing their strollers with the kids in tow.

My wife was very diplomatic with her response, out them in their place quite well.

As for my wife, she speaks 7 languages fluently, has a Doctorate in International Relations with a Secondary in Public Relations.

Dee said...

My friends in Europe say most there speak several languages, most fluently.
I always wonder why your side cannot stand it when people here are bi-lingual and speak Spanish. Or is it just Spanish you object to?

Dee said...

It was a sort of off hand compliment. They obviously thought she was pretty.

Dee said...

It is still odd you referenced skin color.
"by those who are 'browner' than she is."

Very odd!!

Dee said...

I dont get why saying she looks like a barbie had anything to do with racial prejudice. Why? Because they said it in spanish? And Latinos dont use the word "whites". They use other references. And they probably didnt use the word "bitch". It is surprising they said "Barbie".

Was it just once? Why did you say "much."

Hmmmm.. very odd.


Liquid said...
My wife has experienced much racial prejudice

Liquidmicro said...

So BITCH is a sort of off hand compliment. They obviously thought she was pretty???

Must be there peasant class talking then, right?? Any excuse to sweep it under the rug, I guess.

Dee said...

I can maybe understand something like "te crees mucho."
They would not say blanca. Especially since your wife has dark hair and looks Portugese.

Dee said...

I used to work in New Bedford area. They had many, many Portugese immigrants there. Most look Latino, only shorter than most Mexican Americans.

Dee said...

They didnt say bitch. You said they were speaking spanish. What word did they use.

Dee said...

No sweeping Liquid.
It just sounds made up or maybe she didnt translate it correctly to you.

Liquidmicro said...

"Why did you say "much.""

At least once a month, while shopping in the mall, she comes across this type of 'harassment'.

Why do you try to make it sound as if Hispanics can not show any form of Racism towards others, why so much denial about it??

And yes she gets it from other elasticities, and ignorant women.

Liquidmicro said...

That picture is 4 years old, she had dark hair for about 6 weeks, prior to that is was white hair, after that it was red/brown and curly for about 8 weeks, then back to white hair. Now it has white/gold highlights. The incident I spoke of was about 5 years ago when she had shoulder length white hair and just had our first child. Right now she is in Lisbon until next Saturday, when she will probably come home with a different hair color and style altogether again.

Liquidmicro said...

If you knew anything about most Portuguese immigrants to the USA, most are from the Islands, the Azores, where they are 'brown' with dark hair and eyes. Most on the mainland are light to white, unless you go to the very south of Portugal. To the north, they are white with blond hair.

Dee said...

So you are saying that once a month someone who is Latino catcalls your wife and calls her a Barbie. It doesnt sound like racism. It sounds like sexist catcalls.

Racism would be something like: You big white dumb idiot. You never listen because all whites never listen.
This is an example of racism. I would call it this if that is what they said to you.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I referenced New Bedford and the Portugese immigrants I knew there.

Liquidmicro said...

"Dee said...

No sweeping Liquid.
It just sounds made up or maybe she didnt translate it correctly to you."


Coming from a person who isn't fluent in Spanish, yea right, give it up Dee, she understood exactly what they said, just like they understood exactly what she said to them.

Dee said...

Touchy Touchy!
My how defensive you get!

Liquidmicro said...

"Dee said...

So you are saying that once a month someone who is Latino catcalls your wife and calls her a Barbie. It doesnt sound like racism. It sounds like sexist catcalls."


Again, Dee, read what I said:

"And yes she gets it from other elasticities, and ignorant women."

She gets it at least once a month when she goes shopping, I haven't been to the mall in over 2 years, Victorias Secret is really bad with all the women in there, same with the clothing section in Nordstroms.

(elasticities should have been ethnicities - damned spell checker.)

I hear about it enough to know racism and bullying are 2 different things, and she stands up to who ever, she makes them back down. Short with a mean streak in her, I call her feisty.

Dee said...

You must be tired Liquid.
What the heck are elasticities??

Liquid said..
Again, Dee, read what I said:

"And yes she gets it from other elasticities, and ignorant women."

Dee said...

Probably more like bullying because she is so cute.

Liquidmiro said...

I'm getting over a cold, wife has been gone for the week, won't be back until next weekend, plus doing daddy daycare for a 5 year old and a 2 year old, tired doesn't cover it.

Spellchecker changed the word on me.

Dee said...

In junior high, I was very shy. Sometimes some of the kids teased me because of my shyness. I knew it wasnt racism. It was because I was shy and some were bullies.

I also have experienced racism. I have shared my skating experience in 1st grade or another time when someone took me to the bathroom to wash off my skin colore

Dee said...

Sorry to hear your wife is gone especially for Thanksgiving.
That is my family´s FAVORITE Holiday! They love my turkey and dressing.

Dee said...

But getting back to topic. My guess is Cheney and Gonzo are weazeling their way out of this!

Indictment Hearings
Saturday , November 22, 2008 Posted: 04:25 PM
juanguerrahearing_friday12pm.flv

DA Guerra fights to stay on

WILLACY COUNTY- A hearing is underway into the indictments against Vice President Cheney, former attorney general, Alberto Gonzalez and State Senator Eddie Lucio Jr.

http://www.newschannel5.tv/2008/11/22/1001591/Indictment-Hearings

Liquidmicro said...

I'm sending you some pics of her, check your email.

Dee said...

My favorite for both of you was your Easter Pix.

My 2nd favorite was with the girls.

She is very beautiful!! You lucky dog! No wonder people are jealous of her.

Liquidmicro said...

Liquidmicro said...

Analisa,
You have great creative writing skill, very impressed with it.

To Catch a Muse

Deaf Orchestra

Woundings



very impressive, I must say.

November 21, 2008 11:30 PM


After thinking, and lots of remembering, 'Deaf Orchestra' I have read before. Now you wouldn't have borrowed from this story written by Isaac Millman would you have?? You know the story..... Moses, Goes to a Concert; written in 2002.

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