Friday, May 2, 2008

Two Faced Napolitano & McCain! Restrictionist Arizona Laws Causes State to Lose $! Now new program invites new Mexican Guest Workers!

Arizona. In 2007, the home of the Nation´s severist restrictionist Immigration Laws. These laws promised to "come down hard" on not only illegal immigrants but on employers. Since the laws have passed, Arizona has seen changes, however not the changes they wanted.
As Sheriff Arpaio came down hard on Latinos, legal and illegal, via Racial Profiling Sweeps of Latino majority cities and towns. Latinos, both legal and illegal, fled in terror of being caught up in these raids.
While to date, not ONE employer has been arrested or sanctioned, Arizona is suffering the impacts of these restrictionist laws. Business owners are going out of business and they are suffering from the inability to hire workers needed to do the job, all while the state is experiencing one of their lowest unemployment rates in history.
Fast forward to May, 2008. Arizona , John McCain´s home state, the state with the most broken immigration policies, is seeking to change their laws and invite in more Guest Workers from Mexico.
My only question is to the bad-boy Sheriff Arpaio, "whatcha gonna do when they come for you..." All of the invited Guest Workers!
The Tucson Citizen Reports:
PHOENIX - With lawmakers temporarily diverting their focus from the state's budget crisis, the hot-button issue of immigration is getting renewed attention in the state Senate, where one lawmaker vows to conduct what would amount to a filibuster. Senators this week are expected to consider both a bill to revise the 2007 employer sanctions law penalizing businesses that knowingly hire illegal workers and a separate proposal creating a new state guest worker program. Arizona is the nation's busiest border crossing point for illegal immigrants, and the 2007 employer sanctions law was enacted in an attempt to eliminate jobs as a magnet for illegal entrants. The bill (SB 1374) to make numerous changes to the sanctions law is a response to criticism from business owners and others about its fairness and workability. Proposed changes include making its penalties for employers apply only to workers hired on or after Jan. 1 and establishing a new voluntary compliance program. The guest worker proposal would ask for federal permission so Arizona could create a program to provide temporary foreign workers for employers who experience labor shortages. ..

Proponents argue that creation of the program would help employers while diminishing unregulated illegal immigration, but it drew fire during a Republican caucus Tuesday as senators said it could undercut American workers and open the door for unreimbursed health care costs. The measure's sponsor, Democratic Sen. Marsha Arzberger of Willcox, later said she has commitments from enough fellow senators for passage. She briefly flashed a "laundry list" of checkmarks next to names of senators but declined to allow a reporter to examine it in detail. Arzberger said work for Americans would be protected because the state Industrial Commission, one of the agencies that would help administer the program, would determine whether businesses had made adequate attempts to hire local workers. The immigration-related measures are among numerous pieces of legislation being considered during a lull in budget action.

96 comments:

dianne said...

#1 - Employers SHOULD be punished, but their organizations (Chamber of Commerce, etc.) who have "supported" the illegal immigrants really only want cheap labor and NO responsibility for checking their legal status. They don't give a hang about the workers. Accept that. The love of money is the root of all evil.

#2 - What is wrong with a temporary worker program? I think that is ultimately the way this will all play out. There are hundreds and thousands of temporary worker agencies in this country. Millions of American citizens work through temporary agencies. My own son-in-law worked for the Federal Reserve Bank as a temporary employee for 9 months until he was hired on full time and my daughter worked as a temporary rural mail carrier until she was hired on by the postal service almost a year later. During that time they got NO benefits of their employers. What would be the difference with temporary workers from Mexico?

Liquidmicro said...

The Federal Gov't already has all this in place, the problem is the employers refuse to use it. H-2A visas have no quotas, yet few if any farmers in AZ are using it, why?

Diane has it right, even the few farmers in the USA use temp services in order to hire the few H-2A visas that are used, just so they don't have to pay all the additional transportation, food, health, and lodging.

I say, go after the farmers and force them to use the H-2A visas, this solves the problems of exploitation of the workers and takes the liabilities off the backs of us regular citizens that are paying the sub-sidized health care and various other costs of the exploited workers.

Also, don't forget that Colorado was the first to bring up in-state guest workers, especially when they were using low risk inmates as farm workers.

Liquidmicro said...

Company Fined for Favoring H-1B Holders in Hiring

The U.S. Justice Department has fined a Pittsburgh-area computer consulting company $45,000 to settle charges that it placed job ads specifically looking for workers with H-1B visas, reports Computerworld.

The department said it found that between May 9, 2006, and June 4, 2006, iGate Mastech placed 30 job ads for computer programmers that “expressly favored” H-1B visa holders over legal U.S. workers.

The Programmers Guild in 2006 lodged a complaint against iGate and a number of other companies. Guild founder John Miano said the settlement “is probably the most visible result” of the Summit, N.J.-based organization’s campaign against companies that discriminate against U.S. workers “in favor of cheap H-1B workers.”


All for the love of money!!

Dee said...

I agree. We should have a Guest Worker program and Immigration policies that work.
What troubles me is all the disrespect and racial profiling that occurs. Latinos, especially the Guest Workers and all migrants, are viewed by many ANTIs (esp Arpaio and his crowd) as inferiors. We constantaly hear "3rd world country", "Mexifornia", "lack intelligence, " and on and on by the ANTIs. It is just sickening!

What has to change is, all Latinos and all people should be treated with Respect and not the gum under your shoes!

Dee said...

Liquid, I agree. Force the farmers and employers to follow the Immigration policies.

But guess what, they are not being held accountable.

In AZ, for all the hype, not ONE employer has been sanctioned or penalized.

Arpaio has NOT gone after ONE employer.

Liquidmicro said...

Their you go ago again taking what was said out of context. All the "ILLEGALS" should be sent packing, they can then apply for GUEST WORKER STATUS from within their own countries at one of their local Consulates. At which point they could return here under a GUEST WORKER PERMIT with no chance for becoming a Permanent Resident or an eventual Citizen.

Our current system would work if the employers would use it, they refuse to. You continue to argue from the employers side, thus you are encouraging the exploitation of more "IMMIGRANTS" by not forcing the employers to use the current system.

You need to distinguish between "ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT" and your use of the term calling them "INVITED GUEST WORKERS", until you can do that , you are only lying to yourself and others.

Liquidmicro said...

1. Its not Arpaio's job to go after employers, it is the job of the government and the local AG.

2. They are not being held accountable because, in AZ, most employers released the persons prior to the law taking effect, same goes for OK.

3. All the more reason to pass the SAVE Act.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Actually you ask a good question.
We have 12M illegal immigrants in our country. It is said 60% are from Mexico.

Regarding H2B Visas, here is what the immigration dept says:
H-2B Work Visa Overview: Business visas are issued to foreign nationals who work for a foreign company or organization. B-1 Business Visas are more advantageous than visa waivers for several reasons, including the possibly to extend the stay in the United States, change status to other types of visas and even apply for permanent residence in the United States. Business Visas are can single or multiple entry and valid for up to 10 years. B-1 Visa holders are usually issued a 6-month stay in the country.

Dee said...

So given the ease and convenience of obtaining a matricula card and given the ease and convenience of submitting and applying for the H-2B Work Visas (downloadable on line) then why couldnt the 12M apply?

Dee said...

And Liquid, Do you truly believe the 12M will all go back to their country of origin? We are told most have been here +5 - 20 years and are well embedded into their local communities. Additionally, some are from war torn countries cannot return.

If they obtained matricula cards and signed up for H-2B work visas, why should they go home?


http://www.usimmigration.info/h2b_visa.html

Dee said...

It is Napolitano and McCain that are talking out of both sides of their mouths. 1st, imposing restrictionist laws. Now, advocating for Guest Worker programs.

How do you make sense of their rationale for doing this Arizona 2 step?

Liquidmicro said...

Haven't I said before that all "Illegal Immigrants" should go down and apply for a visa, if denied they should then be repatriated. The H-2A AG visa has an unlimited quantity, so the whole worlds poor could come here if the AG industry would use it. H-2B and H-1B visas and various others are for other types of business', however the video of Pearce is mostly for workers just to the state of AZ, for which they themselves could regulate the viability of GUEST WORKERS, this would be different than what is issued by the Federal Government, thusly limiting the GUEST WORKERS to business, no matter the business type, to be just that, GUEST WORKERS.

Liquidmicro said...

As for th 12M, over half have come here just in the last 6 years from everything I have read. If they have come from wore torn countries then the need to apply for asylum, if denied, then they need to find a country willing to except them, as they are not our burden. They should be applying for asylum from their own countries prior to "Illegally" coming here.


"If they obtained matricular cards and signed up for H-2B work visas, why should they go home?"

Because there is a limited supply of H-2B visas per year, that are used up fairly quickly. Why then should they be allowed to stay here and wait their turn at an H-2B visa? It could take a number of years, if they ever do get one, why should we then support them here while they are not authorized to work? Why should we give them all the befits of citizens and legal residents, i.e. drivers license, social programs, health care, etc... if they are not entitled to work here legally? Why should they then remain here?

As for the 12M repatriating themselves, that phenomenon is happening, a good portion have already left of their own accord, persuading the rest to do the same is the trick. If they refuse to do so themselves then they should forfeit all items they have here to the state in which they have holdings, if they repat. themselves, at least they can take their spoils with them.

dianne said...

I don't know what's two faced about McCain? He supported the guest worker program from the get go. Now, the only thing he has done to change that is to say the borders must be enforced first, before the rest can be taken care of.

I seriously doubt we're going to see any kind of wholesale amnesty. We now have more like 20 million illegal immigrants here and it is simply not feasible to open the coffers to all of them at once benefit wise (medicaid, etc.) The temporary worker program is the only rational way to do it.

Hran said...

liquidmicro:

I am in agreement with your points. The illegals, even from a moderate conservative point of view, should not be rewarded with a path to citizenship.

On the H-1B: employers like Microsoft say they need the visas and that it does not drive down wages. But the visas do have that effect. Without them, Microsoft and other high-tech companies would have to raise wages high enough to attract students to CS degree programs. As it stands, students know that they will have to compete with H-1B visa holders. And even if they get a job, it could be outsourced to India or China at any time. This makes a CS major less attractive.

patriot said...

diane, dee doesn't want the borders secured FIRST and that is why she is of the opinion that McCain is two-faced.

ultima said...

Obviously, the law is workable because it is working. That's the reason for all of the complaints. What's unfair about enforcing the immigration laws? Just can't be!

So let's require employers who make a good faith effort to hire citizen labor by offering a living wage and a hiring preference and who can present irrefutable evidence that they have done so through their local employment offices. If this effort is to no avail, then we should allow the employer to hire the minimum number of temporary foreign workers to meet his needs provided: (1) he must pay them the living wage established by local unions in concert with the U.S. Dept of Labor based on historical data adjusted for inflation; and (2) he must provide full family health care coverage for these foreign workers. We will soon see if it is a real labor shortage or just a cheap labor shortage. I don't discount the fact that to get anyone to work in 100 degree weather is a problem.

ultima said...

Foreign workers from Mexico in Arizona are in a good position because they can in fact easily return to their homes in Mexico when the job is done. This is the only way they can be truly "temporary".

ultima said...

One objective has to be that foreign worker are paid at the same rate as citizens. Whatever program is adopted should assure there is no unfair competition with American labor. That would not serve our country well.

ultima said...

Liquid is right. During WW II German prisoners were used for farm labor. Let's make sure all those on welfare or who are low risk prisoners get the benefit of working outdoors in a healthy climate. They might even like it as least compared to confinement.

ultima said...

I have probably said this before but the Willie Sutton principle applies here. Willie, when asked why he robbed banks, replied, "Because that's where the money is!" Sheriff Joe is applying that principle. Why does he go to the Hispanic communities? He could answer, Because that is where the illegals hang out and live."

This is the most efficient way to do the job. Joe does have a tendency to treat everyone the same, like dogs, no matter what the color of your skin so no one should be offended by this.

No self-respecting pro-legal advocates mistreatment of illegals and certainly not as stupid or as gum under our shoes. Still lawbreakers and illegals in general have little to complain about when they are rounded up and dealt with in accordance with the law. The law needs to be strengthened rather than weakened. Immigration decisions should be quick and appeals extremely limited. The bases for appeals should be narrowed. Repeat offenders of which there apparently are many, must be jailed at hard labor, working on the border infrastructure.

ultima said...

Doesn't the term "restrictionist" apply to illegals while "guest worker" applies documented workers. There is a difference. I don't see any conflict between advocating both.

ultima said...

With 45 million Hispanics in this country now, we are well on our way to becoming another Latin American country. Is that the model enlightened Hispanics who fled their homelands want for America?

ultima said...

No one believes that all 12-20 million illegals and their families will be repatriated but with full implementation of workplace E-verification we can make very significant inroads into the problem. Without this tools for denial of employment to illegals secure borders are a pipe dream.

Hran said...

Ultima:

RE: "With 45 million Hispanics in this country now, we are well on our way to becoming another Latin American country. Is that the model enlightened Hispanics who fled their homelands want for America?"

Excellent point. It makes sense for Hispanics to seek to maintain the traditional ethnic composition of America. Ain't broke, don't fix it. But Dee is happy to transform America, the results be damned.

Nelson said...

FYI, McCain has nothing to do with our State legislature. He's a US Senator, not a State Senator.

Nelson said...

In response to H1B visas, and as someone with a Computer Science degree, we're only hurting ourselves by not allowing larger numbers of technology workers here. Washington state lost a MicroSoft technology center to Canada because Canada had a more open immigration policy. Those tech centers provide a lot of jobs, including non-tech jobs, as well as tax revenue to whichever community they're based in. And if you think that technology can't be developed outside of the US, you're wrong.

This is a global world. If we don't make the best use of our resources, including foreigners that want to work here, some other country will.

Dee said...

Welcome Nelson. Both sides participate in civil discussion on my blog and I hope you come back often.
I realize McCain is a US Senator. I included him in the title to draw attention to the fact that these Immigration issues are coming to a head in his state and there is some guilt by association. Also, since he is a candidate for President, if these issues are not resolved in his home state, how can he bring national resolution to this issue?

Dee said...

Nelson,
I do agree with you about our being in a global world.
I also agree we are losing business/revenue because of our current crackdown on immigration laws.
If we do not enact Comprehensive Immigration Reform and resolve our broken immigration policies, I believe we will see additional/worse impacts on our economy and we will lost business and revenue from this business to other countries.

Dee said...

Ulty,
I´m surprised by your comment:
"With 45 million Hispanics in this country now, we are well on our way to becoming another Latin American country. Is that the model enlightened Hispanics who fled their homelands want for America?"
These are the number of Latino citizens we have here now.
What does this have to do with illegal immigration.
My family has been here for centuries as have many people across the the SW. We haven’t fled from anywhere.
We are the Great USA and this is our natural evolution to a multi cultural society.
I know that Hran, as an admitted White Nationalist, has his own reasons for wanting a White Only America, but I thought you were different than that Ulty. Aren´t you about rule of law and not in this fight due to reducing the rate of Latinos in our country.

Dee said...

Liquid, I know you and others believe the 12 - 20M will repatriate. I just dont see it happening. Look at AZ and the impact to their economy and shortage of workers. If they all leave, the same will happen across the nation. Worse, we will also see the racial profiling of our current Latino citizens and the high costs of an increased number of family Detention Centers required to house the 12 - 20 as they are leaving if they dont voluntarily repatriate.

Hran said...

Dee,

I'll settle for the reestablishment and maintenance of the traditional ethnic composition of America. In any case, one where white Americans are not reduced to a minority in their own country.

Hran said...

Re: H-1B visas.

I remain unconvinced. I'm also a tech worker. I know there are enough smart people here. Bill wants cheap Asians. Enough said.

But there are plenty of articles on the matter at VDARE. For example, addressing specifically the tech center in Canada:

VDARE Article.

Quote:

"Microsoft spokesman Lou Gellos said that while the immigration issue was a factor, the company would be opening the center in Vancouver even if it were not for the immigration challenges."

patriot said...

dee, most of the population growth is from Latino illegal immigration and the children they produce after arriving here. That has nothing to do with Hispanic citizens who have been here for decades. That kind of grwoth is not natural nor is it desirable.

No we aren't evolving into a multi-cultural nation. We will be evolving into another Hispanic country if we don't deport the illegals ones here and stop anymore from entering illegally.

Hran never said he wanted an all White country. Can't you tell the truth for just once and stop spinning everyone's posts? He and I both want to retain the White majority in this country. That isn't the same as wanting an ALL White country. We cannot do that if illegal immigration is allowed to continue from mostly Latino countries.

Liquidmicro said...

You forget Dee, "Illegal" are counted in the census. So your 45M you need to deduct the amount of Hispanic/Latino "Illegal Immigrants" from, which would put it closer to the 35M Hispanic Citizens/Legal Residents.

You have repeated the same lines again. CIR would have done nothing to benefit American Citizens as it would only have made the "Illegals" Legal.

A Mainframe-Size Visa Loophole
More companies are using L-1 visas to bring in low-wage foreign info-tech workers -- and replace Americans


How much is a larger number? We have over 400K H-1B's here at any time + L1's and Foreign Students working as interns. So I ask again, how many is enough? What of all the American Citizens laid-off only to have the company bring in these H-1 and L-1 visa holders to replace them within a few months?

Liquidmicro said...

There are no quota restrictions on the L-1 Visa, fancy that.

The United States L1 visa is a non-immigrant visa which allows companies operating both in the US and abroad to transfer certain classes of employee from its foreign operations to the USA operations for up to seven years. The employee must have worked for a subsidiary, parent, affiliate or branch office of your US company outside of the US for at least one year out of the last three years.

Companies operating in the US can apply to the relevant USCIS service center for an L1 visa to transfer someone to the US from their overseas operations. Employees in this category will, initially, be granted an L-1 visa for up to three years.

There are two types of employees who may be sponsored for USA L1 visas:

* Managers/Executives

The legal definition of management and executive roles for these purposes is quite strict, and a detailed description of the duties attached to the position will be required. In particular, the executive or manager should have supervisory responsibility for professional staff and/or for a key function, department or subdivision of the employer. Such personnel are issued an L1A visa, initially for a three year period extendible in two year increments to a maximum of seven years.

* Specialized Knowledge Staff

This category covers those with knowledge of the company's products/services, research, systems, proprietary techniques, management, or procedures. Staff in this category are issued an L1B visa, initially for three years extendible to a maximum of five years.

On completing the maximum allowable period in L-1 status, the employee must be employed outside the United States for a minimum of one year before a new application is made for L or H status.

# Length of L-1 Visa: 3 years
# L-1 Visa Extensions: 2 years at a time, up to a total of 7 years (5 years for an L-1B visa)

Dee said...

Hran,
I do agree that Corporations do outsource and move their plants out of the country to increase their profits. These outsourced jobs are the jobs most Americans DO want to do. I do not know how this is accomplished. Look at GM. They cut their wages in half and the union went along with it. The corporations need to stay competitive in the Global Economy.

Dee said...

Pat, Only 60% of the 12M are from MX. Sounds like these are the only ones you want to deport.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I don’t buy your assumptions about 35M. I know many Latinos that don’t mark Hispanic on the census.
You are missing my view. I say bring the 12M out of the shadows and put them in legal status. Clean up the backlog in the Immigration process. Eliminate the fraud and bribery in the attainment of legal Visas. Secure the borders. Monitor the Guest Worker process so we know who is here. Have this be an employer responsibility and accountability or severe sanctions. We will save multi millions, especially by ending the Family Private Prisons-Detention Centers.

Liquidmicro said...

I know your view, in fact you place it in an order again, starting with legality to those here Illegally, which would solve nothing and create more animosity towards them by Citizens/Legal Residents and those that have waited patiently for their turn to come here to find they have to compete with people who came here "ILLEGALLY". Where is it fair to those people that waited patiently?

Now since the topic is varied again, as usual, lets go back to what AZ is wanting to do. My posting to the H1B visas was to make a point, not to change the topic.

AZ's GUEST WORKER program would be ran by AZ. It would not be the same as that ran by the Federal Government. Thus AZ could place LEGAL GUEST WORKERS with business' that can prove they can't find LEGAL workers in the state. GUEST WORKERS would be just that, GUESTS, and would be repatriated at the end of their WORK PERMIT.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
I don’t buy your assumptions about 35M. I know many Latinos that don’t mark Hispanic on the census.


Thats because they identify themselves as White and not Hispanic/Latino.

"For instance, when asked to name their ethnic identity, most respondents replied that they were Mexican or Mexican American. Smaller percentages identified as Chicano, Latino, or Hispanic. About 10 percent did not mention an ethnic group, preferring a term such as "American."

Sociologists also asked respondents about their racial identity and found that 38 percent of the first generation identified as white. White identity was markedly weaker among the children of original respondents and it declined with each successive generation.
...
"This intergenerational study suggests that Mexican American political participation has increased over time, but that a distinct ethnic and political sensibility remains in place," the study's authors noted."

Links in your other topic: May 1 marches.

Liquidmicro said...

To answer your question, the number would be diminishing for those that mark white over generations and increasingly marking Hispanic/Latino/Chicano, thus concluding that the 35M after deducting "Illegals" from the 45M number would be fairly close.

patriot said...

dee, again you twist my words to suit your agenda. I am aware that Latinos make up 60% of the illegal aliens in this country and I never said nor implied that they are the only ones that I want deported. I want them all deported along with the visa overtayers also.

But since Latinos make up the largest majority of illegals it is that ethnic group that could change the White majority in this country along with our culture and language. The other 40% are a mix of of ethnicities. None of which are a large enough group to completely change the traditional society of this country.

The overall illegal population in this country is a lot more than 12 million also. It is probably double that.

Liquidmicro said...

Its closer to 60% Mexican, 20% Hispanic/Latino, and 20% all others.

Liquidmicro said...

Making it about 80% Latino/Hispanic.

Dee said...

Liquid, I find it interesting that you, Pat, Hran and Ulty are all so focused on the % Latino citizens here. (and % illegal who are Latino)

I believe three is much more that 45M citizens who are Latino. Many mark White on the census. I think a certain percentage do this so they will not be racially profiled or lose opportunities due to their ethnicity. Consider my family. My ethnicity Latino. My husbands ethnicity Irish. My children a % of each. Many families are like mine. More than you could even guess.

I say I am American. However, others, like all of you, would say I am Latino. You would say all of my brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and grandkids, grandnieces-nephews are Latino. They all say American. I would guesstimate between 100M - 200M are like my family. A mixture of many ethnicities including Euro, Latino, Black, Native American, Asian.

Hran said...

Dee;

"I would guesstimate between 100M - 200M are like my family. A mixture of many ethnicities including Euro, Latino, Black, Native American, Asian."

This is very telling. In your mind you have already defined America as multi-racial. Interesting approach: but still a means of justifying the actual take-over of the US by non-white ethnic groups.

patriot said...

dee, I don't recall either myself, liquid or hran focusing on Hispanic CITIZENS. Our concern has always been about illegal aliens. We are most focused on Hispanic illegals because they make up the majority of illegals in this country.

The only Hispanic CITIZENS that concern me are those who are more concerned about their own illegal ethnic kind than their fellow American citizens and the rule of law in this country. I believe it not in the best interests of this country for any citizens to be of this mindset. It goes against the grain of being a united country for our OWN common good. Those Hispanic citizens who are of this mindset are hypocrites also when they keep bringing up the White racism of the Civil Rights Era and yet their agenda is discrimination for their own kind and race based also.

dianne said...

This is interesting. I am 100% by blood Norwegian. All of my ancestry is from Norway but I have never considered myself Norwegian American. I am American. I was born here. My ancestors came from Norway and I deeply appreciate the struggles they had of which I have a record...robbed, lived in caves, farm hands, etc. They never got welfare or any government aid. Most were farmers, toiling in the same fields under the same conditions that Mexican immigrants do today. Up till my generation, they all spoke fluent Norwegian as a SECOND language. My grandma and my dad could speak both English and Norwegian but were fluent in English, right down to the correct grammar. We were never taught we were Norwegian. We were taught we were American, English language, etc.

Why is it so different with Mexican Americans today? Dee, can you tell me?

Anonymous said...

Oh...forgot to say my Mom could also speak Norwegian and English to this Day! But, never, never did she or my dad even try to teach me. There is a festival in the town they are from that celebrates May 17 , which is Norwegian Independence Day, but it is a sort of touristy thing, with ethnic foods and crafts, etc. Sure, it's pride in our ethnicity, but it is never intended to replace the fact we are Americans.

dianne said...

Above anon is me, dianne

Dee said...

Dianne,
The difference is, your ethnicity was never treated as inferiors. You were always treated as equals.
Blacks, Native Americans and Latinos, we all relate. We have been treated as indentured servants by the Anglos (Northern European Immigrants)since they arrived.

I remember when I was a child and we worked in the migrant labor camps picking Cherries. We could only swim in one area of Lake Michigan reserved for the Latinos.
The Anglo residents set aside a special Spanish Mass in their church for us to attend.

You ask what is different? You and your Euro ancestors have always treated us differently. As inferiors.

In the sixties, through the Civil Rights Movement, and with the help of Television, we ALL learned, we are ALL equal.

patriot said...

dee, that wasn't dianne's question. She asked why many Latinos cling to their culture and view themselves more as Latinos than Americans rather that fully assimilating into our society. Past discrimination has nothing to do with today nor should it have any bearing on fully assimilating today.

Dee said...

Dianne,
And do you know what?
We don´t blame you or your contempories for all the racism of the past that brought us to where we are today.
All we are asking is, you acknowledge what happened and let us heal, as a multi cultural nation!

Dee said...

And the answer is Pat, is because you and your parents segrated us as inferiors, as indentured servants, to build our nation, our Great USA.

However, in the 60´s, with the Civil Rights movement and with the Tree of Knowledge (TV, internet, media) available to ALL of us, we are informed of the truth and realities of what is happening. We will NEVER, EVER be segrated as inferiors again.

If your side, Northern European Anglos, want to put the blame on the change on anyone or anything, blame the Civil Rights Movement and invention of TV-Internet-Media.


"The TRUTH will set you FREE!"

Liquidmicro said...

New Study Shows Distinct Ethnic and Political Identity for Mexican Americans

I see you didn't read the report I posted to on the other thread. Dianne has the ? right, so here it is again:

Why is it so different with Mexican Americans today? Dee, can you tell me?

Dee said...

I have answered Diannes question Liquid. However, I will answer you directly, with a one word response.
Question:


ANSWER:
Racism.

What is Different?
The Racism is obvious and confirmed via TV, Internet, Media.

Easy Answer.

The RESOLUTION is complex.
The resolution CAN be found via Comprehensive Immigration Reform!

dianne said...

Well, let's all settle down here.

First of all, neither I nor my ancestors had any racism towards Latinos because there weren't any..not any at all where I am from in Wisconsin. Furthermore, there were no migrant workers. We worked our own fields, primarily because the farms were on the small side, not thousands of acres like Texas or even Kansas where I live now. So, I didn't know racism at all when I was growing up. And, by the way, as far as racism, there are tons of dumb Norwegian jokes out there...that's what they called us. By in large though, Norwegians were and still are a peaceful people AND rose above that crap.

But, let's acknowledge for a minute what Dee is talking about. Let's believe the segregation at the swimming pools, etc. That is NOT RIGHT, just as it was not right for Black people. I have a biracial granddaughter and believe me if I ever caught anybody discriminating against her, I would be outraged. Dee, I think that is true for most of us, including Liquid, Ultima and Patriot. You are welcome in my home. You are just as American as I am. Yes, we are a multicultural society and sometimes that is hard to bear after years of living as we do. Kansas is not LA, but all of a sudden in the past few years it's starting to change. We have Latino gangs ... We have an abundance of drunken divers from Latin American countries. We have children who can't speak English who were BORN here and who cost us dearly to educate them because their parents don't speak English. That's reality, Dee.

As an American citizen yourself, do you not see what I see or do we live in such different worlds right here in the U.S.?

I went to Mexico last year as a tourist. I tried to be respectful and I truly enjoyed myself. I saw NONE of the animosity we seem to have here.

What in the world is going on?

Liquidmicro said...

RACISM????

Come on, your better than that, if thats what you believe and think, then the ones who truly have the problem are yours, PRO's.

Our laws are created and enforced based on equality to all racial and ethnic races in the USA. Our laws do not segregate, nor do they see skin color, yet here you are calling all those against "Illegal Immigration", RACISTS. Why?

"The Racism is obvious and confirmed via TV, Internet, Media."

You are kidding, right? Information is out there, it is all about your on comprehension of the story, your understanding of what is being said. If anything, the majority of the media is Liberal, look to all the sob stories involving "Illegal Immigrants".

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said:
"We will NEVER, EVER be segrated as inferiors again."


Yet thats exactly what you are pushing for, segregation. The "Whits-Anglo Saxon" is the root of all evil. Our schools don't teach Hispanic children correctly, yet they are no different then Anglo children. Why is it that Asian children excel in our schools?

High school senior writes winning Ruben Salazar essay

I am not trying to oversimplify my heritage but rather demonstrate how I have taken it for granted. I had never really paid much attention to the leaders within my culture and community who have paved the way of justice and equal treatment in school.
...
Prior to attending Salazar High School, I had attended two other high schools just doing the bare minimum to get by. Further, I was seriously unmotivated, lacked interest in my education, and felt disconnected to my teachers and the learning material.

All I knew was that I needed to pass the high school exit exam or not graduate. That was a new kind of pressure I had not experienced, which made me almost consider dropping out of school. However, my last stop in El Rancho Unified School District was a small school named Ruben Salazar Continuation High School. Honestly, most of my “party friends” had attended Salazar High School. So, I associated the school with everything else but acquiring a meaningful education.

However, when I realized that my initial perception of Salazar was not accurate, I knew the possibility of graduating was real if I applied myself at Salazar High. Interestingly, the teachers at Salazar were there supporting me and the rest of the students, which I had not anticipated.

I have been attending Ruben Salazar for two years now. Within that time I have made a complete turn around in the right direction. I have joined the Associated Student Body and become more interested in my education and, more importantly, my future. Honestly, I had not even considered life after high school until I actively participated at Salazar High School.


I think she explains it quite well, "I associated school with everything else but acquiring a meaningful education." Once she realized she could get a meaningful education, it opened her to an unlimited future.

Is this the problem with most Hispanic children in our schools, is this why they have such a high drop out rate? Maybe they should be listening to Bill Cosby as well!

patriot said...

dee, Hispanics segregate themselves by not fully assimilating into our society. We aren't segrating THEM. Besides what has non-assimilation of today have to do with the past? We are 60 years past the Civil Rights Movement and that was about Black ciitzens anyway. Hispanics and other minorities have more opportunities than Whites today, yet they still b@tch and moan.

Liquidmicro said...

"In the earlier study, "there was a sense of optimism that Mexican Americans would integrate in society, following in the path of European immigrants, but that has not happened," said Ortiz. Although the overwhelming majority of ethnic Mexicans in the nation are U.S. citizens significantly assimilated into the mainstream, many live in segregated neighborhoods. As a result, "outsiders treat them all as recent immigrants and they are stereotyped," she noted."

From the Chicano studies report.

Mexican-Americans: Although the overwhelming majority of ethnic Mexicans in the nation are U.S. citizens significantly assimilated into the mainstream, many live in segregated neighborhoods.

Why do they live in segregated neighborhoods? Yet, you yourself Dee, live in a gated community, which I am sure is pretty diverse in ethnicities and nationalities.

How is it RACISM when they choose, by their own doing, to live in segregated neighborhoods? "Illegal Immigrants" of the Hispanic/Latino type blend into those neighborhoods do they not?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said:
"let us heal, as a multi cultural nation!"

Why do still promote segregation of races with Multi-Cultural Nation? We are a diverse nation, not multi-cultural. Our culture is defined daily due to the diversity of our peoples, not by the segregation of groups of peoples. Like the saying goes, "out of many, one".

Hran said...

Dee:

"Blacks, Native Americans and Latinos, we all relate. We have been treated as indentured servants by the Anglos (Northern European Immigrants)since they arrived."

And now you are out for revenge. And you expect whites to just remain passive as the Hispanics gain the majority? Dee, you are a prime example of why white nationalism is necessary. You force it upon us. We'd be stupid to allow ourselves to be ruled by ethnic groups who harbor such grievances.

I have seen this in many places. The wounded, angry, simmering Hispanic: full of brown pride and self-righteousness, waiting for the day when he can exact revenge on the gringo.

Hran said...

"We don´t blame you or your contempories for all the racism of the past that brought us to where we are today."

LOL.

Hran said...

Dee:

"And the answer is Pat, is because you and your parents segrated us as inferiors, as indentured servants, to build our nation, our Great USA."

I can't stand it. This is such an outright lie. Dee, you're starting to rival Jim in sheer nonsense. This is part of the self-righteous grievance of the Hispanic: WE BUILT THIS COUNTRY! Bull! No you didn't.

It was built by white people, like Dianne.

Dee said...

Liquid, You are missing it.

Dianne asked the question:
. her ethnicity was from Norway. Her immigrated ancestors were accepted as Americans by other Americans from northern Europe. She asked “Why is it so different with Mexican Americans today”

I responded:
The difference is, your ethnicity was never treated as inferiors. You were always treated as equals.
Blacks, Native Americans and Latinos, we all relate. We have been treated as indentured servants by the Anglos (Northern European Immigrants)since they arrived.


If you are not aware of racism existing in America, I can share some urls with you.

Dee said...

I excelled in school Liquid. Many Latino children excell in school. Why do you single out Asian? Many children of all ethnicities excel.

Dee said...

I can see how sensitive most of you are to the reality of racism.
Imagine if you had been on the receiving end.
I am not angry about it. In fact, understanding it exists and overcoming the adversity has enabled me to grow and be strong. Resilient.
It is not as blatant as it was in the past and I suspect most people try their best to treat everyone as equals, including minorities.
I think multi culturalism is good. I do not advocate separatism. I live in a diverse community. There are many diverse communities in our nation.

Dee said...

I dont understand this statement of yours Liquid.

You said, "Mexican Americans live in segregated neighborhoods"

Very curious. I suspect if you enter into any neighborhood you describe as Mexican American, you will find a variety of ethnicities, most minorities.

In reality what you are saying is "some northern european ethnicities live in segregated neighborhoods and become nervous when minorities move in." Is that a more accurate statement?

Dee said...

Hran,
I am not angry at all. As I said
"We don´t blame you or your contempories for all the racism of the past that brought us to where we are today."

We need to grow together as a nation now.

Dee said...

Hran,
Study the nation building of our nation. My grandfather and many Latinos, Blacks and Asians built the railroads.
Blacks harvested in the SouthEast. Latinos harvested across the Heartland up to Michigan, Wisconsin and throughout the midwest. We provided the manpower for the contruction of cities across the nation.

There were, of course, Europeans too. No one denies that. But you have to include all the minorities that provided the bulk of the manual labor.

Additionally, consider all of the Military support all minorities have provided in times of War and Peace. Latinos are the majority on the front lines of Iraq today.

Liquidmicro said...

I am quoting the report I URL to earlier, obviously you still have not read it, not have you fully read my posts. I am but merely the messenger. The report is from The UCLA Chicano Studies Department. I suggest you read it. Maybe then you will see where some of us are coming from.

You relate to much to the distant past, we live in the here and now. Racism as you describe it, is from the past, with the exception of the fringe groups still spouting it.

Read the study, quit reading the headline! Its from your own kind.

To be Multi-Cultural would further encourage segregation, we are NOT Multi-Cultural, we are Diverse with nationalities and mono-cultural.

Nelson said...

Towns like Seguin and San Antonio weren't built by white people. And Hispanics aren't treated as inferiors.

Live and let live. Turn off Dobbs and Rush and all the talking heads, and just enjoy life. If someone wants to come and work hard to provide better for their family, let them.

Liquidmicro said...

"Towns like Seguin and San Antonio weren't built by white people."

But they were built by Europeans, Since the Spanish are who founded and built San Antonio. Seguindo also known as Walnut Springs was founded in 1838 by the Gonzales Rangers, who were all American Soldiers. Who were in fact White.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Rereading your statement below, I want to know what you mean. Diverse nation meaning we are a nation full of ethnically diverse people.
Then you say our culture is defined daily. Dont you mean RE Defined daily?
If you add the RE then I think our thinking is more in line than I thought.
As we evolve as a nation, our cultural identity evolves. After 2 or 3 generations, the new immigrants help transform our nation to a different, updated, society. We have done this for centuries.
We are NEVER going to be the northern europeans John and Abigail Adams were in the 1700s. We have Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Technology, and more. We can eat Turkey and Tacos at the same Thanksgiving dinner. I don´t advocate enclaves by ethnicity. What I call multi culturalism is the acceptance of the beautiful diversity such as my family has and so does yours Liquid. (You are married to a Latina, right?)


Liquids statement:
We are a diverse nation, not multi-cultural.Our culture is defined daily due to the diversity of our peoples, not by the segregation of groups of peoples.

Liquidmiro said...

Then you say our culture is defined daily. Dont you mean RE Defined daily? YES

If you add the RE then I think our thinking is more in line than I thought.

As we evolve as a nation, our cultural identity evolves. After 2 or 3 generations, the new immigrants help transform our nation to a different, updated, society. We have done this for centuries.

CORRECT!!!!

Liquidmicro said...

Now you see the difference between your Multi-Cultural (incorrect label) and Diverse (correct label).

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

I excelled in school Liquid. Many Latino children excell in school. Why do you single out Asian? Many children of all ethnicities excel.


Who Graduates? Who Doesn't?

The findings presented in this report do not paint a flattering portrait of high school graduation for public schools in the United States.

* The national graduation rate is 68 percent, with nearly one-third of all public high school students failing to graduate.
* Tremendous racial gaps are found for graduation rates.
* Students from historically disadvantaged minority groups (American Indian, Hispanic, Black) have little more than a fifty-fifty chance of finishing high school with a diploma.
* By comparison, graduation rates for Whites and Asians are 75 and 77 percent nationally.
* Males graduate from high school at a rate 8 percent lower than female students.
* Graduation rates for students who attend school in high poverty, racially segregated, and urban school districts lag from 15 to 18 percent behind their peers.
* A great deal of variation in graduation rates and gaps among student groups is found across regions of the country as well as the states.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I think you and I agree, however we just have a difference of agreement on the terms diverse vs multicultural. I think they are interchangable. But lets put that aside for a moment. Lets agree on the base assumption. Our country is diverse and our country continues to evolve culturally to one US Culture as we evolve as a nation. As Lupita would say, we are ALL Gringos up here in the US.

If you ask Pat or Hran or even Ulty, their goal is that the majority of our country stay in some type of time warp in which the core culture of the US is White Northern European. Not evolving. Not diverse-multicultural. Just a static, majority white nation.

See the difference here.
Maybe you are more on my side than you think (vs theirs).

patriot said...

Shall I explain to you once again for the umpteenth time, dee. We are diverse racially. We have minority cultures living among us. By that I mean that they came from a cultural background that was never mainstream in this country. Many have assimilated to our mainstream culture but still keep some of their cultures from the countries that they or their ancestors were from alive at home. But that doesn't make this country "multi-cultural. We have a mainstream and identifying culture in this country. We are not multi-cultural per se.

anon 1 said...

here-here, I 2nd that Dee, we cannot evolve with segregation, we cannot evolve as a country if we continue to racial profile and blame others for who ails of our society, just as Nelson A few posts ago said, LIVE AND LET LIVE, insults aside, none can argue that this is the RIGHT policy all should live by

patriot said...

anon1, who is segrating who?

It is called criminal profiling, not racial profiling.

Illegal immigration is ONE of the ills of our country but not all of them.

"Live and Let Live"? If our country had adopted that slogan long ago we wouldn't be a country based on laws but a country based on chaos. Oh, that sends out a pretty picture. Let's just forget the ten commandments to shall we and just "Live and Let Live". Are you for real?

Liquidmicro said...

Words that are interchangeable with DIVERSE: varied, miscellaneous, assorted, various. Its meaning. 1. Differing one from another.
2. Made up of distinct characteristics, qualities, or elements:

Words that are interchangeable with MULTI-CULTURAL: There are none, only its meaning. 1. Of, relating to, or including several cultures.
2. Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.


Semantics, Dee, Semantics. By changing just one word you construe the entire point, making it mean something that it does not. You lie to yourself and everybody else when this is done, trigger words make it harder to get to the truth due to exacerbation of the point.

Liquidmicro said...

So then by your assumption of "live and let live", what of those that heinously kill others? Should we just let them live too, or how about those that steal from you, should they just be left alone? Is it anarchy that you promote? What of the enclaves of races, where they self segregate, are you then for this?

Illegal Immigrants have a home in another country where they lived just fine until they chose to come here and work by breaking our laws. They are let to live, just after they get repatriated to their home countries.

With all the prior questions posed, why don't you first try to answer any of them, or is it just your own opinion that life should be life, and if it doesn't effect you than no foul?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said:
"If you ask Pat or Hran or even Ulty, their goal is that the majority of our country stay in some type of time warp in which the core culture of the US is White Northern European. Not evolving. Not diverse-multicultural. Just a static, majority white nation.

See the difference here.
Maybe you are more on my side than you think (vs theirs)."


OR, maybe you are more on my side than you think. The USA, even as it does become more diverse ethnically it has and will always contain its core culture. New ethnicities do not change the culture, they ever so slightly enhance it, but the core always remains the same.

Nelson said...

So then by your assumption of "live and let live", what of those that heinously kill others?

Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

If murder is against the law for some, then it should be against the law for everyone. If someone can get deported for their place of birth, then we should all get deported because we had no choice in where we were born. If working is legal for some, then it should be legal for all.

If we have to beg our government for "permission" to work, and this "permission" were given out to some, but not others, then our freedoms are only a fiction.

patriot said...

nelson, you really are one hell of a whack job!

Under your bizarre thinking humans would have the right to migrate anywhere on this planet and there would be no distinct countries with borders. Who is going to govern all of this? Everyone would be migrating where the climate is ideal. There would be billions of people living in just a few areas on the planet. Talk about overcrowding! Everyone would be competing for the same jobs for the lowest pay. It would make a third world country of today look like a paradise. We would be living in squalor and chaos not to mention the cultural clashes. You're taking us back to the caveman days.

Stay off the drugs. Your brain has been fried.

Nelson said...

Under your bizarre thinking humans would have the right to migrate anywhere on this planet

Yes. As long as they are peaceful and can afford the rent, government shouldn't get in the way.


and there would be no distinct countries with borders.

I never said that. Moving from country to country should be like moving from state to state.


Everyone would be migrating where the climate is ideal. There would be billions of people living in just a few areas on the planet.

If that were the case then everyone in the US would have moved to Hawaii or Florida by now.

Liquidmicro said...

By your assumptions, then business would hold all the money while the workers would compete to see who could work for less. I work for $10 per hour, you come here and do the same job and work for $9 per hour, so in order for me to keep my job and not lose it to you, I now would have to work for $8 per hour. So sure, lets live and let live. Lets all race to the bottom. First one to $1 per hour wins, does that work for you?

There being born in another country, is the other countries responsibility, thats what governments and countries are.

Liquidmicro said...

"If murder is against the law for some, then it should be against the law for everyone. If someone can get deported for their place of birth, then we should all get deported because we had no choice in where we were born. If working is legal for some, then it should be legal for all."

In fact murder is against the law for all. Working is legal for all, every country has workers, but then working is not a RIGHT either. Whats keeping them from working in their country of birth or origin? Responsibility comes into play now.

Liquidmicro said...

"If we have to beg our government for "permission" to work, and this "permission" were given out to some, but not others, then our freedoms are only a fiction."

Freedoms??? There have been rules/laws/regulations since Adam and Eve..... DO NOT EAT FROM THIS TREE, said God.

Our government is suppose to make sure its people have the opportunity to work, unfettered from outside competition. The people do not have a problem with regulated workers entering into our workforce, for it controls costs and wages, yet controls our daily living expenses and tries to make it affordable even to our lowest income earners.

Liquidmicro said...

"If someone can get deported for their place of birth, then we should all get deported because we had no choice in where we were born. If working is legal for some, then it should be legal for all."

You go from a Worldly global economy down to a Sovereign economy real quick here. Working around the global economy one must still get authorization, either as a business or an employee, to work in any other country other than where that person holds citizenship or that business originated from. It protects the business market and the workers themselves. It is designed to try to keep everybody honest. Yet with you "live and let live" you are condoning the use of slave labor and are encouraging business to take advantage of these poorer people who don't know any better. You and them do not realize why the laws were put into place, to keep them from being treated as slaves. So please, keep encouraging it, I'm sure big business loves you for it.

Dee said...

Ive been reading about countries like New Zealand, Austrailia, UK, India, Malaysia. It is the same across the world. The poor attempting to move to safer countries to help their families being turned back, beaten, imprisoned, left for dead. Told never to return. It is frightening.

Nelson said...

"You and them do not realize why the laws were put into place, to keep them from being treated as slaves."

If that's the case the government should make it illegal for all of us to work and then deport us, so we won't be "treated as slaves."

When you think of these arguments, put yourself in the shoes of whoever the law is being applied to. You probably wouldn't feel that making it illegal for you to take money for work and deporting you is protecting you from slavery.

However, giving you legal status and letting you work legally with the same protections as other legal workers probably would make your working environment better.

Liquidmicro said...

You still condone the exploitation of them. Who is to say that their pay will increase to that of a legal worker? Who is to say they won't be released in favor of another Illegal worker? Wages will still decrease for them, holding down the wages of all. They allow themselves to be exploited and you condone it.

Why can't they put themselves in my shoes and not take from my table unless I offer to them. Why should I be forced to give to them? What gives them the right to take without asking? I consider it very rude on their behalf. Their plight lyes with their Government in their country. Their countries lack of ability to provide for them. Let them go to their Government and ask for better conditions their.

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