Friday, May 30, 2008

What is the Real ID Act? And why are so many Freedom Loving Americans opposing it? (including more and more ANTI sites)

More and more ANTI sites are opposing the SAVE ACT due to its e-Verify-RealID provisions. The latest site defines the details of the RealID Act. Click here and then on "What Is ´Real ID´for the details.

Let us sum up the provisions of the Real ID Act:
1. All state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver ID shall include a "biometric parameter," commonly understood to mean fingerprints, from at least two of the identified person's fingers. This will result in a dramatic increase in the number of people fingerprinted and in the size of computerized fingerprint databases. Currently, fingerprinting is common in conjunction with arrests, as well as for certain forms of employment, but is not usually required for a driver's license.
2. All of the above-mentioned documents are to include a "common machine-readable technology," understood to mean that the cards will be swipe-able like a credit card, and that all of the information encoded on the card would be available to the owner of the card-reading machine. The legislation itself does not specify whether only government agencies or private persons such as bar owners checking the age of patrons would have access to the encoded data, but "common" does imply that the authorities in California would be able to read licenses from New York, so the card-reading machines would have to be pretty generic. The Department of Homeland Security is pushing for the introduction of RFID chips, also known as "proximity chips," into licenses and ID cards, which enable anyone with the right instrument to read the card while it is still in its owner's pocket. The Digimarc Corporation has already sold systems for "contactless" smart card driver's licenses to North Carolina and other states. Digimarc touts the smart card licenses for their ability to be scanned by border authorities on the Mexican and Canadian side, more or less the way tolls are paid via Easy Pass at bridges and tunnels, at quite a distance.
3. In order to obtain a driver's license, a real geographical address will have to be provided, not a post office box. This will essentially bar homeless people (or people whose home is their car) from obtaining licenses.
4. The Real ID Act requires states to link the databases of information on their issued IDs into a national database and to share this data with Federal law enforcement officials, as well as those from other states, and from Canada and Mexico.
5. Real ID includes several provisions that do not pertain to identification at all, but to immigration policy. One of these deprives state and local authorities of the right to use their own zoning or eminent domain provisions to interfere with the building of the border fence that is intended to hinder illegal immigration. Another allows the Department of Homeland Security to arbitrarily define the meaning of the word "terrorist" when deciding who shall and shall not be allowed to enter the country. This provision will probably be used to restrict the ability of non-citizens opposed to U.S. policies on a whole range of issues to travel in and out of the country, effectively cutting off the free exchange of information on those issues.
USID LEGEND: 1. USID number = SS #; 2. Optical Memory Strip (like small CD) for digitized fingerprints and personal information; 3. Photograph; 4. Smart Card Technology (the card can perform data manipulation and run cryptographic algorithms, include medical history but could include travel history, education, work histories, other histories); 5. Internal Memory Strip (A high-capacity device could store rich biometric data such as several fingerprints, iris scans, face scans, heartbeat characteristics, or DNA sequences); 6. 2-D Bar Code: This low-tech info coding could be used by officials who don't have more sophisticated optical reading devices.

137 comments:

yave said...

Hey, I just stumbled on this blog recently through symsess--nice place!

I remember dimly from the '90s when a lot of conservatives were upset with the expansion of federal power. Black helicopters, mark of the beast, you probably remember the shtick. Funny how all that went out the window after Bush came into office. Something tells me there will be a resurgence of conservative skepticism of the feds if Obama wins this fall.

Working in immigration law, I've learned of necessity to be attuned to federal overreach--I don't think this habit will be easy to unlearn even under a Democratic president, and I don't have that much faith in the Democrats anyway.

Dee said...

Welcome Yave,
I am so glad you joined us!
So many in the administration are pushing strongly for the RealID. First the Patriot Act, now the RealID. Big Brother is here!

patriot said...

Poor dee. Hates anything that will help deter illegal immigration.

She is always willing to throw out the baby with the bath water. Uses every excuse in the book to stop legislation that helps enforce our immigration laws. What an American!

patriot said...

And FYI, just because you read a few remarks by anti's that are concerned about or object to the Real I.D. Act doesn't represent the anti movement as a whole.

This is the one that really cracked me up. Thanks for the good belly laugh with my breakfast this morning, lol.

3. In order to obtain a driver's license, a real geographical address will have to be provided, not a post office box. This will essentially bar homeless people (or people whose home is their car) from obtaining licenses.

First, most everyone has a physical address even though they may have a P.O. Box also. If not, they can always use a relative or friend's address.

Second, if someone is homeless or living in their car, why would they be driving? Obviously, they must be unemployed and couldn't afford the gas money or insurance to drive a car.

I have seen desperate tactics by the pro-illegals before to prevent the enforcement of our immigration laws....but this one takes the cake!

Dee said...

Pat,
The reason I put the actual Real ID example and the legend at the bottom of the post was just for people like you. You have to read it in order to understand why so many Americans, both ANTI and PRO, are opposing it and the SAVE Act!

US-ID LEGEND: 1. USID number = SS #; 2. Optical Memory Strip (like small CD) for digitized fingerprints and personal information; 3. Photograph; 4. Smart Card Technology (the card can perform data manipulation and run cryptographic algorithms, include medical history but could include travel history, education, work histories, other histories); 5. Internal Memory Strip (A high-capacity device could store rich biometric data such as several fingerprints, iris scans, face scans, heartbeat characteristics, or DNA sequences); 6. 2-D Bar Code: This low-tech info coding could be used by officials who don't have more sophisticated optical reading devices.

Dee said...

Good-bye Civil Liberties! Hello Big Brother!! (Sign of the Beast!)

patriot said...

The REAL ID Act would halt the issuance of driver's licenses to illegal aliens because every applicant would have to prove that they are in this country legally. Currently there are a handful of states that issue licenses to illegals (some also issued them to terrorist).

It's a small price to pay for our national security and to stop those states that give driver's licenses to criminal aliens. Heck, the states that issue the licenses to illegals are probably the ones whinning the loudest!

By no means is the bill perfect, but I can find a lot more to like than dislike. Furthermore, no one is being "branded" or "numbered" as some have suggested. Furthermore, we need a national standard for the issuance of driver's licenses. Currently there are seven states that openly issue licenses to criminal aliens: Connecticut, Georgia, Minnesota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and West Virginia. Additionally, legal residency is not required in these states: Alaska, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Nevada, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. In addition, states that have verification loopholes are: the District of Columbia, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, and Tennessee. Now, you tell me which states are yelling the loudest to repeal the REAL ID Act and I can probably point them out from the states I've listed above. Moreover, the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) is opposed to Real I.D. That says a lot right there as to what their agenda is.

For those waiting for the perfect solution, you'll be waiting a long time.

Anonymous said...

Does La Raza care about the civil liberties of all American citizens?

patriot said...

Heck no!

Dee said...

Anon,
I find it very racist that you throw around the term "La Raza" so derogatorily. First of all, I doubt you know what it means. If you are referencing the NCLR, they are a Humanitarian group call the National Council of La Raza. It is like the NAACP. Your calling NCLR "la raza" is like calling the NAACP "colored people." Do you get it? Do you understand? The way you throw around this term, it is like you throwing around a term like "buncha Mexikins". You just dont get it.

Dee said...

Secondly, Anonymous (and I will say the H-Anonymous (h = heinous) because I see how rude and awful you have been and you have a very negative agenda) you remind me of a T bird I used to know, civil liberties are for ALL Of us Americans. Even you. Stop trying to start your race war. It is NOT Working!

Dee said...

When I talk about the REAL ID Act stripping away ALL of OUR Civil Liberties, here is the legend of the RealID card to HELP you understand:

US-ID LEGEND: 1. USID number = SS #; 2. Optical Memory Strip (like small CD) for digitized fingerprints and personal information; 3. Photograph; 4. Smart Card Technology (the card can perform data manipulation and run cryptographic algorithms, include medical history but could include travel history, education, work histories, other histories); 5. Internal Memory Strip (A high-capacity device could store rich biometric data such as several fingerprints, iris scans, face scans, heartbeat characteristics, or DNA sequences); 6. 2-D Bar Code: This low-tech info coding could be used by officials who don't have more sophisticated optical reading devices.

Anonymous said...

"Poor dee. Hates anything that will help deter illegal immigration."

You need a major reality check "patriot."

The Bush administration has had a blatant open borders policy. You think they came up with Real ID to stop the illegals? So, they've had an incredibly weak immigration policy, and now the Real ID is some magical turn around in thought? No, it's more of the same plan, from the same people.

You want to help deter illegals? Secure the border. Quit taking people off the border and sending them to Iraq.

Our civil liberties are being systematically destroyed. The United States is declining financially and morally from this never ending "War on Terror." We have met our greatest enemy, and it is us.

dianne said...

I'm all for it
!

Anonymous said...

La Raza is a newspaper. Are they affiliated with NCLR? Does the newspaper support civil liberties for all American citizens?

Anonymous said...

and calm yourself down dee, you will have a heart attack.

ultima said...

Of course, one has to realize that not everything in this world falls neatly into one of two simple categories. Dee decries the Blackwater operation, implying that it is some sort of fascist organization that is certain to infringe upon our freedoms through their nefarious business activities. On the other she worries about IDs for much the same reason.

If we analyze these two issues more dispassionately, we will see that there are good arguments on both sides. Maybe if we gave W. a majority share in Blackwater he would become more interested in using them to do the job the Border Patrol and other have been unable to do because of the constraints and rules of engagement applied by the administration.

One only has to seen the volume of traffic at the border to realize the impossibility of border security without stringent measures and a drastic reduction in cross-border traffic. Non-citizens should not be allowed to make frequent border crossings in either direction. A machine readable biometric ID is the only way we can begin to control the pedestrian and vehicular traffic that would still remain after the prohibition of against non-citizen crossings on a daily basis. What if could check every vehicle and every pedestrian against a national data base instantaneously via the machine readable ID?

The many and lengthy discussions of the infringement of the rights of Japanese American citizens and Japanese citizens living in the U.S. during WW II is a example of the greater good, at the expense of human rights. America stood on the brink of disaster with no battleships remaining and just a few carriers. Fate favored us in the Battle of Midway or we could have lost it all. Yet, people will continue to argue that we should not have taken the steps Roosevelt authorized to improve our security. I regret we were not a little more even handed, especially regarding Japanese American owned property which was largely lost. Roosevelt could have seen to it that that property was place in the hands of a trustee with full fiduciary responsibility to manage it on behalf of his Japanese American clients. This was the grave error in the day. Securing our coasts against potential enemies at all costs was not.

We are now in a similar situation, one which has deteriorated dramatically under the incessant and unarmed invasion of illegal aliens and excessive legal immigrants who cannot be assimilated in their present numbers.

There is little hope that America will survive this onslaught. Meanwhile, our friends in the Hispanic community are fiddling while Rome is burning the the rest of the orchestra of Dems and Ws are joining in in a deafening chorus.

The liberals think they are preserving our freedoms and promoting justice and equality but they above all are sowing the seeds of destruction. The clear and present danger to the last and best hope of mankind goes unrecognized just as the unarmed Muslim infestation of Western civilization in Europe has been ignored because of liberal values that ultimately will be their undoing and perhaps the undoing of the Western world and the enlightenment that has been achieve since the 7th century, where the Muslims still reside.

ultima said...

The United Nation's Human Rights Council has launched a witch-hunt against the United States.

The charge is racism against Muslims. And the United Nations' so-called Human Rights Council has put its top attack dog on the case.

His name is Doudou Diène. He's from Senegal -- a country that is no stranger to legitimate accusations of human rights violations -- and he's in the United States right now, as you read this alert, building a venomous case to present America as a human rights violator to the entire world!

But Doudou Diène's mission likely has a purpose infinitely more sinister, more destructive, and more dangerous to United States.

Doudou Diène's report will surely condemn America for supposed "racism" against Muslims and it's a very good bet that the end result of this so-called report will be DEMANDS FROM THE WORLD COMMUNITY THAT THE UNITED STATES RELAX ITS SECURITY MEASURES -- BASED ON FALSE CLAIMS THAT OUR SECURITY MEASURES ARE VIOLATIONS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF MUSLIMS -- AND LEAVE THIS NATION VUNERABLE TO TERORIST ATTACKS AND POSSIBLY EVEN EVENTUAL DEFEAT IN THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR!

Joseph Klein, writing for FrontPageMagazine.com, had this to say about Doudou Diène:

"Diène is from Senegal, a predominantly Muslim country which is a member of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), the largest voting bloc at the United Nations. He has consistently sided with that bloc against Western and other democracies such as Japan. His cultural and religious biases have led to his obsession with Islamophobia, which he has called 'the most serious form of religious defamation.'

Here are some examples, according to Klein:

"For example, Diène has repeatedly criticized the Danish government for placing freedom of expression above 'combating religious intolerance and incitement to religious hatred' on the grounds that it was not quick enough to condemn a private newspaper's publication in 2006 of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. He has criticized 'groups that have instrumentalized the freedom of expression' -- a direct assault on the First Amendment guarantees embodied in our most basic instrument of liberty, the U.S. Constitution. Yet Diène failed to condemn a blatantly anti-Semitic cartoon brought to his attention by the Wiesenthal Center that appeared a year earlier in the ArabNews (billed as Saudi Arabia's first English-language daily newspaper). The cartoon depicted rats wearing skullcaps bearing the Star of David, scurrying backwards and forwards through holes in the wall of an edifice bearing the poster 'Palestine House.'

"Diène was also silent about government-issued schoolbooks in Egypt and Saudi Arabia that promote hatred against Jews and Christians, which UN Watch had asked him to condemn without success. These books, according to UN Watch, refer to Jews and Christians as 'cursed,' as 'infidels,' as 'unbelievers,' and as 'enemies of Islam.' They teach schoolchildren that 'the Jews are a people of betrayal and treachery' and that 'a malicious Crusader-Jewish alliance [is] striving to eliminate Islam from all the continents.'

"Diène talks about how Western-style racism against Muslims is the major factor causing the so-called clash of civilizations between the Judeo-Christian and the Islamic cultures. Where is his condemnation of Islamic fanatics practicing a faith that demands conquest and subjugation of the adherents of all other beliefs, whether they are Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahá'ís, or atheists? Virtually all of the worst acts of terrorism in the world today are committed, financed, and led by such fanatics who claim to be acting in the name of Allah. Saudi Arabia, the self-proclaimed guardian of the Islamic faith, is the fountainhead of religious intolerance and of the strict segregation of Muslims from non-Muslims. It is a land where it is a crime punishable by death for non-Muslims to even set foot in certain 'holy' areas."

Read enough?

ultima said...

"If you are referencing the NCLR, they are a Humanitarian group call the National Council of La Raza."

The NCLR is no more of a humanitarian organization than the KKK. It is primarily a political organization designed to promote the interests of Latinos, illegal aliens, open borders and increases in simplified immigration. It works tirelessly for special programs and privileges for la raza not for the best interests of America and its sovereignty, a sane immigration policy, secure borders, repatriation of illegals, reduced border traffic so we can stop terrorists, etc.

It agenda is well-known especially in Mexifornia. You can fools some of the people, some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.

Humanitarian, in the case of la raza, means open borders. Is that the limit of its ideas. Where are its ideas for securing the borders and expelling illegal aliens. In point of fact, La Raza has none save amnesty, simpler and more expeditious immigration procedures, and, of course, open borders. We know them by their errors of omission. We know their loyalties by their myopia as they speed us on our way to Pax Latin Americana. They know not what they do in their quest for political power. Once they achieve that, they will see that they have killed the goose that laid the golden egg. Then, where will they go when the Mexicanization is complete and they are in control to apply the same level of corruption in politics that characterizes most of Latin America.

ultima said...

"Good-bye Civil Liberties! Hello Big Brother!!"

As in the case of the Japanese, a small price to pay given the alternative. Je ne sais quois.

patriot said...

anon, securing our borders is EXACTLY what I want! I wish we would never have gotten involved in Iraq and if I had my way our military would come home today and secure our borders. Most pro-illegals don't want that though. They say they do but when putting the military on our borders was suggested they had a hissy fit. The talk of building a fence also sends them into a hissy fit. It isn't those like myself that don't want secure borders by any means necessary, it is the pro-illegals!

What ever gave you the idea that I am a Bush supporter or any of his war policies? You couldn't be more wrong!

Dee said...

Anon,
You are confusing yourself with all of your mi terms and mis usage of La Raza. Calm down before you excite yourself.

Dee said...

H-anon - T, No need to worry about my young heart. Yours, being much, much older, has a lot to be more concerned about.

Dee said...

Ulty,
It is not just me that worries about Blackwater´s agenda. We should ALL be concerned! Read into their history and their abuse. Let the American Public judge for themselves. Do we really want these GOP cronies to monitor our borders and patrol our states? I think not!

patriot said...

dee, it wouldn't matter to you what security company that our government hired for the same purpose that Blackwater serves, you would still dig up some dirt on them and object to it. The bottom line is that you don't want our borders secured and you don't want illegal aliens deterred or deported. Why don't you just admit your real agenda and be done with it instead of these little games that you play? You are opposed to Blackwater, the fence, the raids, detention centers, deportations, the Save Act, e-verify, Real I.D., Sheriff Joe, Tancredo, the MM, ICE.....do you see a pattern here, dee?

Anonymous said...

La Raza (newspaper) published by
NCLR. One and the same dee. Now,
does La Raza give a damn about the civil liberties of all American citizens?

Anonymous said...

I don't support any group who doesn't care about all American citizens and La Raza doesn't.

dianne said...

Ultima: I say get out of the UN which has become a corrupt organization (oil for food scandal) increasingly influenced by leaders of countries like Amajedine and Chavez. We should not be surprised by their witch hunt.

Dee said...

Ultima,
My gosh. I read over your recommendations on Blackwater.
It is just unbelievable that you would prefer a Gestapo state, ala 1984, with the likes of Blackwater patrolling the border, implanted microchips to e-verify our dna, every movement controlled and monitored just so long as your white, northern european culture remains in the majority and in power.

How utterly unbelievable!!

Dee said...

Ulty and Anons,
It is obvious you do not understand the very American Citizen principles and missions of minority organizations such as NCLR, NAACP, JACL or the G & L Taskforce.
Here are their missions:

1. NCLR
The National Council of La Raza (NCLR) – the largest national Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization in the United States – works to improve opportunities for Hispanic Americans.
2. NAACP - a champion of social justice, fought long and hard to ensure that the voices of African Americans would be heard.
3. JACL -
The JACL was founded in 1929 in the midst of racial turmoil against Americans of Japanese ancestry. Its original purpose was to fight social injustice directed toward people of Japanese ancestry and to preserve the cultural heritage and values of Japanese Americans. It remains one of the oldest and most respected civil rights organizations in the country.
4. Gay & Lesbian Taskforce: community of motivated and talented people whose devotion to G & L civil rights can only be described as inspirational.”

patriot said...

And as I said in another thread dee, how utterly hateful and unfeeling of you to insinuate that Whites have no right to retain their traditional society and culture in this country! Latinos have 22 countries on the Western Hemisphere and their societies are traditionally Hispanic. You don't have a problem with that. Why is that? If you think that any society would welcome a total demographic change in their countries due to illegal immigration, you are in deep denial and lying to yourself. Guess it is only racist for Whites to object to this, correct dee? Your hypocricy and outright hatred for Anglo-Whites is appalling.

Dee said...

Pat,
How silly.
What are you doing now.
Keeping score of English speaking vs Spanish Speaking vs German Speaking vs Chinese? Come on!
You are making yourself look silly! (poor dear Pat)

patriot said...

dee, what the hell are you babbling about now? You aren't making any sense here and obvious dodge of my questions. My question was, do you object to Latino, Chinese, etc. countries retaining their traditional societies and cultures as the core identity of their countries? You think it ok for the demographics of ANY country to change due to an illegal invasion of their country? Just as I stated, you won't answer, instead you babble something else.

Anonymous said...

dee said,

1. NCLR
The National Council of La Raza (NCLR) – the largest national Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization in the United States –works to improve opportunities for Hispanic Americans.

"for Hispanic Americans" illegal aliens from Mexico are not hispanic
Americans. They are Hispanic illegal aliens violating American laws. Why would they support law breakers?

Angry Anon 1 said...

Pat, not only do you act like a child but you are truly a pathetic excuse for a man in this country and you make me sick looking at your sick/stupid posts, Is this how you act in real life? Do you have a hard time with ppl taking you seriously (hmmm, thats a no brainer)? I don't see why Dee just doesn't delete every single one of your sick/stupid posts. I'll tell you why, it's because she truly does care about everyone's opinion (even yours) and for you to act like a baby just makes me sick. ACT YOUR AGE, STOP CURSING (A@@ IS A CURSE), AND IF YOU LOSE AN AGRUEMENT OR SOMEONE SHOOTS DOWN YOUR POST DON'T REACT LIKE A BABY!!!

anon 1 said...

no, no truth nerve, YOU just get on my nerves

Dee said...

Anon 1,
Thank you for your continued support.
Ive read and re read this whole line of discussion.
I think you are right.
Pat has gone over the brink of civility.
I am going to delete all name calling and harassing posts of his and any off topic posts of his going forward.
I have tried to be as civil as possible with him but he is here just to name call and disrupt the discussions.
I gave him enough rope to end his time here.
So sad for him.
I truly feel sorry for him.
Perhaps he will feel much better with his own on an ANTI blog.

Hran said...

Dee,

re: "Good-bye Civil Liberties! Hello Big Brother!!"

The need for such measures is a consequence of unregulated immigration. It is an aspect of what Sam Francis called Anarcho-Tyranny.

Dee said...

Pat, (and to your friend Heinous Anon who I call T)
Sorry. This is not your forum. You have gone beyond the limit and frankly my blog does not have time to play childish name calling games with you.
I will delete any message of yours I feel is inappropriate.
Several of my commenters have been writing me and asking me to do this for some time.
You should start joining other forums Pat. One where you are with like minded people who appreciate what you have to give.
Take Care,
Bye Bye

Dee said...

Hran,
I totally disagree with you, but at least you are honest in your perspective. You are very straightforward in saying you are a White Nationalist and you believe White Northern Europeans should dominate our society. You say the need for Big Brother is required if we are to maintain White Northern European dominance.
Many on the ANTI side feel the same but are not willing to say this out loud. All of these actions like the Real ID Act, Blackwater Gestapos, etc. etc. are Nazi Germany all over again.

At least you and VDare come out and tell us your true thoughts and why you want this!

Maria Elena said...

Dee, I like your blog. I followed a link over from Citizen Orange to find you. I am also worried about Realid and Blackwater. I hope all the PRO sites get together and stop all the racial profiling.

Maria Elena said...

Dee, I was reading some of these comments by people like Patriot. He is a hater. I wouldnt worry about him. He is the one who looks like he has too much time on his hands.
You are right. We have no time for haters.

Alie said...

Maria, from the little I have read, Patriot said that there are 22 Latin American countries where Latinos are the majority and she does not seem to mind them staying that way. He asked why the majority population should accept becoming a minority in their country through illegal immigration which I do not see as a hateful question. It might not be politically correct, but still not hateful. I am sure that Mexicans would not want to become the minority in their country through illegal immigration, say, of 10s of millions of Chinese or Arabs. And they would not be hateful for objecting to it either.

Dee said...

Welcome Maria Elena. I have been receiving a few new people from Citizen Orange. I glad you found us and I hope you come back often!

Dee said...

Maria Elena, When I read the Real ID legend, it is obvious to see how our civil liberties are impacted. These cards will provide myriad personal information about each of us. Many groups, both PRO and ANTI are opposed to these IDs. It is important that the media and bloggers share this information so we can provide feedback to Congress.

USID LEGEND: 1. USID number = SS #; 2. Optical Memory Strip (like small CD) for digitized fingerprints and personal information; 3. Photograph; 4. Smart Card Technology (the card can perform data manipulation and run cryptographic algorithms, include medical history but could include travel history, education, work histories, other histories); 5. Internal Memory Strip (A high-capacity device could store rich biometric data such as several fingerprints, iris scans, face scans, heartbeat characteristics, or DNA sequences); 6. 2-D Bar Code: This low-tech info coding could be used by officials who don't have more sophisticated optical reading devices.

Dee said...

Alie,
Welcome to my blog.

We have 50M Americans who are Latinos in our great USA. We are not Mexican. We are American.

Our Great USA is a melting pot. We are comprised of multiple ethnicities.

People like Pat want the USA to be dominated by White Northern European ethnicity and he wants the majority to stay White Northern European ethnicity.

The whole issue of illegal immigrants is totally separate. The census bureau tells us there are 12M illegal immigrants of various ethnicities in our country. They believe 60% may be from Mexico. My stance has always been:
1. Secure Borders with trained Border Patrol
2. Sanction Exploiting Employers
3. Legalize the 12M here so we have no more "rule of law" issue

Additionally I have asked:
1. Stop the Racial Profiling
2. Close the Detention Centers
3. Stop the Racial Profiling Sweeps (ala Arpaio)

Hran said...

Dee,

"You say the need for Big Brother is required if we are to maintain White Northern European dominance."

That's not quite my point. If the majority of whites decided to defend their own interests, then all the changes can be made within the limits of the Constitution. I'm totally against totalitarian government (unlike some white nationalists).

"All of these actions like the Real ID Act, Blackwater Gestapos, etc. etc. are Nazi Germany all over again."

A gross exaggeration. Just look at the current primary season. Absolutely nothing like Germany in the 1930s. If you make the comparison with Nazi Germany, then give a specific policy that is very similar or identical between the two. We can't have Nazi-like policies without a Nazi-like government.

"At least you and VDare come out and tell us your true thoughts and why you want this!"

VDare is not specifically white nationalist. But I would prefer not to need the Real ID Act. I think we just need more ICE enforcement of current laws combined with a new system for verifying employment status.

Hran said...

Alie:

"I am sure that Mexicans would not want to become the minority in their country through illegal immigration, say, of 10s of millions of Chinese or Arabs."

I tried the same argument with Dee. It doesn't seem to work. She can't see the difference between the US having traditional minorities (e.g. 4% Hispanic and none in the original states outside the Southwest) and these minorities coming to dominate the entire country.

Dee said...

Hran,
Per your question below, here are some comparisons:

Nuremburg Law of Nazi Germany:
1.Denaturalization laws passed in 1935 classifying people as German or Jews. If all 4 grandparents were German, you were German. If you had one or two jewish parents, you were a Mischling. (mixed breed)
. Compare to the ANTI request of changing the 14th Ammendment
. Are these the types of laws White Nationalists are wanting to imposed, particularly for families of mixed ethnicity like mine?
. Census Bureau continues to stratify citizens by ethnicity and cultural backgrounds
2. Ban Jews from working for the state or being employed as lawyers, doctors, or journalists. Compare to the Workplace Sweeps and Racial Profiling Sweeps conducted by Arpaio.
3. Jewish Identification Card compared to e-Verify REAL ID Card

HRANs statement
If you make the comparison with Nazi Germany, then give a specific policy that is very similar or identical between the two.

Dee said...

Hran,
Regarding our current primary season, I am glad for it! I believe we are at a crossroads in history. We can vote for Change or we will continue with status quo. Your side is more aligned to the status quo, conducting sweeps, bringing in Blackwater to monitor, violating our Civil Liberties, being at War with the world vs diplomacy.

My side is more aligned to Change into a beautiful, peaceful, multi cultural society.

Dee said...

Hran,
I re read your statement below several times.
Where we have a Major Difference of opinion is the term "traditional minorities."
There is no traditional minority. All races continue to intermarry. Remember my Richard Prior story. He want to Africa and asked what tribe they thought he was from and the response was "Italian"?
Also think of my children. They are fairer skin than you are. What are you going to label them? There is no "traditional minority." We evolve. We intermarry.
We are NOT WHITE Northern European.
We are NOT BROWN Mexican.
We are NOT BLACK AFRICAN.

We ARE ALL AMERICANS of varying shades and colors and backgrounds and ethnicities.

The reason we have a high rate of illegal immigrants of Latino ethnicity right now is due to Reagans so called amnesty and the Immigration Act of 1996. It takes a generation to assimilate and we have not provided this group time to assimilate.


Hrans statement: She can't see the difference between the US having traditional minorities (e.g. 4% Hispanic and none in the original states outside the Southwest) and these minorities coming to dominate the entire country.

Alie said...

Thanks for the welcome, Dee.

I must also admit that I find comparing our country to Nazi Germany somewhat offensive also.

In Nazi Germany, citizens were being deported to death camps simply because they were Jews. What our country is doing is enforcing our immigration laws and repatriating people here illegally to their homelands. That is what usually happens in any country when someone is found to be in that country illegally. No legal Hispanics are being deported as far as I know.

As well, no legal Hispanic is being prevented from working anywhere or holding any kind of public office. They have the same rights as anyone else. But, illegals are not citizens. And that goes for illegals from any nation of any ethnicity or race. I don't care whether they are Latino, Irish, Russian, Chinese or whatever.

And lastly, about the 14th amendment: as I understand it, the original intent of the 14th amendment was to insure that slaves and their descendants would be considered citizens because prior to emancipation they were not considered citizens but property of the slave owners. It was never meant for millions of people to enter our sovereign nation illegally then have children who would be considered citizens. IMHO this is an abuse of the 14th amendment and we really need to take a look at what can be done to stop this. Children who are born to people illegally in this country should be granted the citizenship of the parents. I think the common sense thing to do is to grant citizenship to children born here who have at least one citizen parent or parents who have legal permanent resident status. Of course, that would not apply to those already born here, just those children born in the future.

Alie said...

Oh, and one more thing: the dream of a beautiful, peaceful multicultural society sounds nice. The only thing is that there is no real example of such a thing in the world. All multicultural nations are rife with conflict and strife. There are many examples today: Iraq with the Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis; Christians; Turkey with the Turks and ethnic Kurds; Spain with the Spanish and the Basques; Canada with their English/French Canadians; Rwanda with their clashing tribes; Lebanon with the Christians, Muslims; Kosovo with the Serbs, Croations, and Albanians. And those are just the current ones, not ones in the past. The list goes on and on.

The most peaceful countries are the ones with shared values and culture.

You can already see signs of strain and tension here in the U.S. with the language issue. I read an article recently where English speaking Americans (any race) were leaving Miami because it is almost impossible to find a job there without speaking Spanish. This is already causing resentment.

Multiculturalism is really a problem in Europe, so much so that they are pulling back from it now.

You use the words "melting pot." But, multiculturalism is the antithesis of the melting pot. The melting pot is when various cultures blend together forming a unique American culture. But, multiculturalism is when people from other cultures come here and retain their original culture and language. It is really modern-day tribalism and contrary to what has traditionally been practiced this country (assimilation/melting pot).

You see, culture is more than just colorful clothing, lively music, and tasty food. It is also attitudes and values. Societies develop these values and attitudes organically through historical events. Each society develops differently just as children from different families develop differently and take on the values of the families in which they were raised.

So, to have a peaceful society, that country must agree on an overarching set of shared values and cultural attributes. Without that, cohesion is threatened and conflict ensues.

Dee said...

The Detention centers are heinous and like death camps. They are crony owned private prisons.

I do have a cousin who works in one of these centers and the environment is not good.

Of course the profits are phenomonal for the Bush-GOP Cronies. They sweep families for a purpose. They sweep them and call it detention, until their court date and then they continue to keep them until sufficient numbers to warrant a bus load for the return trip.

One day we will look back on this, as they did with the Japanese Detention Centers and the Nazi concentration camps and we will ask ourselves why we did not do more to stop these heinous private prisons!

Dee said...

Well Alie,
You are certainly free to have your opinion about our society. I see you are advocating a White Northern European dominance in our country.
That is too bad.

All I have to do is look at my own family to realize how wrong you are. We have all ethnicities in my family. We are ALL Americans. We have many ethnicities. Northern European. Latino. Asian. African American.
Most countries are experiencing the same mixing of ethnicities.

How do you propose to isolate people from marrying one another? Are you going to create laws to stop people from intermarrying? They did this in nazi germany. Have you heard of the Nuremberg laws? Their de naturalization laws ruled on classification of people based on ethnicity.

What a nightmare!

I believe we do have a peaceful society here in America as we continue to intermarry and evolve to a beautiful multi cultural society.

To isolate one group and propose dominance by one ethnicity is just plain wrong! Scary!!

Hran said...

Alie,

Well said, you answered Dee for me.

Hran said...

Dee,

Your family is part of the (small) Hispanic/mixed-race minority that comprise the traditional ethnic composition of the US. You are confusing families like yours with the NEW immigrants that have flooded the country since 1965, and particularly in the last 20-30 years. But the very fact that you are a vehement advocate for this continued influx of Hispanics means that ethnic identity outweighs your stated "American" identity. If you were truly American you wouldn't be so hell-bent for the complete transformation and re-definition of America.

re:

"I believe we do have a peaceful society here in America as we continue to intermarry and evolve to a beautiful multi cultural society."

Believe me, as a former liberal, I get it. But, as Alie pointed out, your vision is completely unrealistic. How do you propose to avoid all the evils we see in the multi-cultural states of the world? Defy human nature?

Alie said...

Dee, I am not even of "white Northern European" descent myself.

Now, I haven't been reading this blog for very long, but just on this one blog you have used those words several times. Which leads me to believe that you seem to have some kind of objection to a majority "white, Northern European" majority population. Why is that, Dee? Why so much contempt for this ethnic group? Do you object to the Chinese being the majority in Asia? Do you object to the Arabs being the majority in the Middle East? Do you object to Africans as the majority population in sub-Saharan Africa? Do you object to Latinos as the majority population in Latin America? Why is it that you seem to speak with contempt for "white, Northern European" population? It just doesn't seem logical to me UNLESS you also have a problem with other ethnic groups being a majority in their homelands. But, that does not seem to be the case. Why is that?

Also, you did not address the issue of what truly "multicultural" society exists today without conflict, strife, and outright genocide? Do not confuse race with culture.

No people should be demographically displaced through illegal immigration. That's just my opinion which you acknowledge I have a right to.

Do you really know of any ethnic or racial group any where on the planet in the past or present that would willingly embrace minority status in their country? If you do I would also like to know where. Because it is just not human nature. As well, whites hear daily from minorities how terrible it is to be a minority in the U.S. Why in heaven's name would anybody CHOOSE to allow this condition to befall them, especially unnecessarily through illegal immigration.

We are the most diverse population on the face of this earth. And all of the various cultures, including mine, have made this an interesting country. But, it is my belief that controlled, legal immigration from a variety of countries and cultures is in the best interests of this country. Right now it seems to me that we are experiencing immigration in favor basically of one particular cultural demographic. There's not much diversity in that.

Immigration needs to suit the needs of the host country, not the needs of the immigrants.

Alie said...

Also, Dee, a disagree with your statement that "most" countries are experiencing this mixture of ethnicities.

The Japanese certainly do not; neither do the Chinese, Vietnamese or other Southeast Asians, Pakistani, Middle Eastern, or African. Latin America is mostly Latino. The countries which are experiencing the most "ethnic mixing" are the U.S., Canada, Australia, and Europe. What do these countries all have in common?

As well, Dee, there is a strong anti-assimilationist movement amongst immigrants today which was not present 100 or even 50 years ago. Many immigrants today are encouraged NOT to take on the values and attributes of this country. In addition to this, many of them are being indoctrinated into the "grievance/victim" mentality. They are being imbued with a resentment and hatred for traditional American society and white Americans. No country would allow this to continue, but for some reason we do. This does not bode well for the future of this country. What will happen to white Americans who will someday become the minority if they are surrounded by the seething and hostile new majority? I think it is something to consider.

Alie said...

Oh, and Dee, I never proposed isolating anyone from anybody. People are free to marry whomever they wish in our society.

What I am against is the complete transformation of our society by means of illegal immigration.

You talk about this "brave new world" this "beautiful, peaceful multicultural society" like the traditional "white, Northern European" as you put it was somehow not quite up to snuff.

Frankly, I am a 20-something and I can only speak of what I know from my own experience and from reading and talking to others. But, what was so bad about traditional white, Northern European-dominated society? Are you suggesting somehow that your version of the U.S. is better? Than is Mexico inferior because they have a dominant Hispanic culture instead of a more "multicultural" one? I'm just trying to understand why you feel this way.

I'm not against immigration, I am merely againt unfettered illegal immigration. And I believe that we should secure our borders FIRST before we do anything else.

I also favor penalties for employers who hire illegals and I think that anything which enables this to come about needs to be seriously considered.

I also appreciate different cultures and races and have black and Turkish relatives in my extended family. But, I am opposed to the balkanization of this country and feel that this out of control immigration is hampering the assimilation process.

Dee said...

Alie,
You are right. You are new here. Here is what you are missing.
I invite all sides to discuss Immigration issues.

This particular topic appears frequently throughout many posts.
The topic: Who-what is the dominant culture in America and should we retain it.
Hran has said he is a White Nationalist. He is advocating the White Northern European dominance. Others have jumped on the bandwagon and agreed this is the dominant culture in our country and should continue. All that come here should adopt to the white northern European philosophy.

I have no contempt for White Northern European ethnicities. My husband is of this ethnicity and obviously my children are 50%.

However, many of our long time commenters jump to the chase in this discussion, hence immediately to this WN dominance discussion.

Hope this helps you.

Dee said...

Alie, have you not heard of America being a Melting Pot? Is this new to you? Perhaps this explanation will help you.

"The melting pot is an analogy for the way in which homogeneous societies develop, in which the ingredients in the pot (people of different cultures, races and religions) are combined so as to develop a multi-ethnic society. The term, which originates from the United States, is often used to describe societies experiencing large scale immigration from many different countries."

Dee said...

The problem is, many White Nationalists, like Hran and many others, prefer the White, Northern European dominance in this country continue.

As I have said, with the intermarrying of various ethnicities, our culture is evolving to a beautiful multicultural society.

I view my family as a solid example of this! All Proud Americans!!

Dee said...

Alie,
You say this. I do not believe this. I have seen no group advocate "DO NOT ASSIMILATE."
Instead, what I see is, since the Immigration Act of 1996, a large volume of new immigrants (legal and illegal) which have not had a generation to assimilate. They are trying. I see many English classes. I see many people working and contributing. You act as if there was a revolt going on. I dont see it.

She me the ANTI ASSIMILATION signs or websites.

Alie said:
As well, Dee, there is a strong anti-assimilationist movement amongst immigrants today which was not present 100 or even 50 years ago.

Dee said...

BTW Alie, What descent are you? Just curious.

Alie said...
Dee, I am not even of "white Northern European" descent myself.

Alie said...

Dee, have you ever heard of the "salad bowl" philosophy? That is where individual cultures remain intact instead of blending in and taking on the cultural characteristics and values of the host culture. It is antithetical to the "melting pot" philosophy. You might not have heard of it, but I can assure you it has a lot of support, particularly amongst the political far left.

I am familiar with the melting pot as I indicated in one of my posts. This is the traditional way this country has handled new immigrants.

Like I said, culture is more than just superficial characteristics. It is also deeper factors such as mores, values, attitudes.

Traditionally in our country, we have assimilated immigrants into the established population by taking the good things their cultures have to offer and leaving the not-so-desireable behind. With "multiculturalism" or the "salad bowl" theory, these cultures retain their entire culture--the good and the not-so-good.

In order for a society to remain at peace, there needs to be a certain amount of shared values and cohesion. Surely that makes common sense to you. Once you allow great numbers of people who do not share those values, or who have an antipathy towards the host population, to take up residence in the country, there is going to be conflict. It is happening right now in Europe. Even the extremely liberal and tolerant Dutch have realized their mistake and are trying to correct it. It might be too late, though. This is a related, but separate topic. We can, however, learn from their mistakes.

Multiculturalism has as its underpinning the belief that all cultures are equal. Therefore, all cultures should be able to exist within a given society without negative consequences. However, Dee, as I have pointed out there is no country on the face of the earth which has not experienced conflict, strife, and outright genocide when disparate cultures exist within the country.

The key is to only accept the amount of immigrants who can be assimilated into the society. Uncontrolled, massive illegal immigration or even uncontrolled legal immigration overwhelmes a society's ability to assimilate the new immigrants. That is bad for the country's cohesion and bad for the immigrants IMO.

Dee, consider this: If the U.S. had been discovered by Muslims (and that might have happened had the Spanish not defeated the Muslims in Spain), do you think we would now be ruled by our Constitution or would we be living under some form of Sharia Law? Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian values. Would we not resemble more the countries in the Middle East?? Culture does matter! You cannot totally transform this culture and think you are going to retain the same country which offered opportunities.

Controlled immigration and assimilation is good; out of control, massive illegal immigration and the resulting lack of assimilation and balkanization is not.

Personally, at this point, I think we need a temporary moratorium on all immigration (except hardship cases or spouses) until we get control of this chaos.

My ancestry is Italian, Greek, and Lebanese. And personally, if the old country was so darned great, my ancestors would have stayed there. I identify as American FIRST; my affinity is for America and Americans, not Italians, Greeks, or Lebanese. It there were millions of illegal Italians flooding the country, I'd be in favor of upholding the rule of law and deporting them.

Anonymous said...

alie,

You offer so much insight and common sense to this whole illegal
and legal immigration issue. You sound wise beyond your years.

Alie said...

Anonymous, thank you. This issue concerns me as it will greatly impact my future and the futures of any children I may have. I have been trying hard to understand the various aspects of globalization and its related mass migration. Not an easy task!

Alie said...

Dee, you said, "show me the signs."

I don't know about you, but I saw the signs during the 2006 pro-amnesty marches. I saw signs that were blatantly anti-white, anti-Western, pro-Socialist/Marxist. I saw the American flag being desecrated and disrespected and the Mexican and other flags being exalted. And it wasn't just a few either. And I've seen the hostile attitude expressed since then.

As well, you can go onto any pro-illegal forum and see the hatred, resentment, and hostility expressed by Americans of Latino descent whose families in some cases have been here for generations. Many of these people live successful lives, their children are successful, and yet...they are so full of resentment towards what they see as "white America." How can they be so hateful towards the country which gave them so much opportunity.

It really gives me reason to ask myself: does this country really need to import 10s of millions more people with this kind of grievance/victim mentality? And even if the immigrants themselves don't have this feeling when they come here, many of them or their children certainly will be indoctrinated into it after they get here. Please do not deny this because we all know it is happening. It is the same basic rhetoric and incitement as what took place at Obama's church.

This is something that did not occur with previous waves of immigrants. They were not incited to hate the country to which they CHOSE to immigrate.

What I have a really hard time understanding is why people would CHOOSE to come here illegally because they have no or very little opportunity in their own lands. Then once here, they or their children fall prey to those who manipulate them for political gain that this is a racist, terrible country where they have no opportunity. There seems to be a real dichotomy there.

patriot said...

alie, ditto from me. You are a very intelligent and well informed person for your young years.

I have made many of the same points that you have. I have asked the same questions that you have but they go unanswered.

As you said, it isn't natural or desirable for any nation to embrace the political, cultural or numerical takeover of their country from illegal immigration of mostly one foreign ethnic group.

I have also asked, is it objectionable for China to want to retain it's traditional society and culture or for Latino countries to want to retain theirs or for any other country for that matter? Especially if the changes were to occur through illegal immigration? I think not! For some reason some seem to think it is not ok for the U.S. to do so.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, still didn't actually answer Allie either. Dee is still confusing Multi-ethnical with Multi-cultural. We are a diverse nation, not a multi-cultural nation. Hence Dee's failure to see the difference.

"As I have said, with the intermarrying of various ethnicities, our culture is evolving to a beautiful multicultural society."


I believe Allie described Dee to a "T" here:

"As well, you can go onto any pro-illegal forum and see the hatred, resentment, and hostility expressed by Americans of Latino descent whose families in some cases have been here for generations. Many of these people live successful lives, their children are successful, and yet...they are so full of resentment towards what they see as "white America." How can they be so hateful towards the country which gave them so much opportunity."


Now, Dee, answer the points made, and don't go off on some tangent like you do.

patriot said...

alie, more insightful and common sense remarks from you. You certainly have a unique way of hitting the nail on the head. You are a breath of fresh air. I admire the way you express yourself just as I also admire Ultima and Liquidmicro's common sense and logic approach to this issue.

For example: Your remarks that what we are experiencing now is not immigration in the traditional sense of the word but a literal transfer of the population of one country to another without U.S. permission. This also is what occured in the 19th century with the Irish when they fled to potato famine. Their were terrible clashes between the Irish and the established population. That is what the movie "Gangs of New York" was based upon. Have you read up on the Draft Riots? You will see what I mean.

As you stated, these immigrants were not coming here with any prior animosity of grievance against America or Americans. Many of the immigrants today are! And if they don't feel that way before they get here, they (or their children) are certainly indoctrinated after they get here.

Anyone who claims that there is no "anti-assimilation" theorists at work here is sticking their head in the sand as that is patently false. There is one pro-illegal forum in particular that I read and it is full of anti-assimilationists. Their insistence on bilingual education is part of their non-assimilationist ideology. Their resistance to English as official language is part of it! They don't want English to be declared the official language because they are hoping that with their increasing numbers, and by resisting assimilation and keeping Spanish alive in their families, they can eventually rival English and make this into a bilingual and then eventually a Spanish speaking nation. How many times have we heard on pro-illegal forums how "we'd better all start learning Spanish?"

Anyway, many of our questions and concerns remain unanswered by the the other side and I suspect it is because they hit too close to the truth.

Hran said...

Dee,

For the record, I don't want whites to "dominate", as you say. Do Hispanics "dominate" Mexico? Do Japanese "dominate" Japan? Wanting to retain the traditional ethnic composition of the US is not an aggressive, domineering policy. Your choice of words reveals your underlying negative attitudes towards whites. Your implication is that whites have no right to be in America in the first place.

anon 1 said...

The thing is, American whites have always had the stereotype that if you show white pride, you are racist, but why would ppl think this? KKK, Neo-Nazi groups for starters. It's one thing to show pride in your own culture but it's another thing to persecute, racial profile and discriminate against any other race/skin color just to preserve or show pride in your own race. American whites aren't the only one's to show this behavior though. And thats the main difference between other cultures in this country and that proves Dee's beliefs is that this is a multi-cultural country and EVERY one has the right to show pride towards your culture, but why do whites have to racial profile against others?

Dee said...

Alie,

Here is where you are totally off track. Why do you view Latinos as a "disparate culture"?
This is totally OFF THE WALL!!



Alie quote:Multiculturalism has as its underpinning the belief that all cultures are equal. Therefore, all cultures should be able to exist within a given society without negative consequences. However, Dee, as I have pointed out there is no country on the face of the earth which has not experienced conflict, strife, and outright genocide when DISPARATE CULTUREs exist within the country.

Dee said...

Alie,
Your words betray you, revealing your true thoughts and motivation.
Latinos are Christian. Family focused. Hard Working. Why would you advocate otherwise?

Very, very revealing and in fact disturbing about you.


Alies words:
In order for a society to remain at peace, there needs to be a certain amount of shared values and cohesion. Surely that makes common sense to you.

Dee said...

Alie,
This is a myth by your side. There is not anti assimilation movement.


As well, Dee, there is a strong anti-assimilationist movement amongst immigrants today which was not present 100 or even 50 years ago.

Dee said...

Alie,
I did some paragraph comparisons and found that some of your usage of words are termed, framed and sequenced exactly like our friend Ultima.

Very interesting.

Dee said...

Alie-Ulty
(unfettered - LOL - who uses this term oh so often?)

Alie-Ulty quote:
I'm not against immigration, I am merely againt unfettered illegal immigration. And I believe that we should secure our borders FIRST before we do anything else.

Dee said...

Hran,
Backpeddaling Hran? As an admitted White Nationalist, how do you plan on keeping White Northern Europeans from intermarrying?

There is nothing wrong with our Melting Pot!


Hran quote:For the record, I don't want whites to "dominate", as you say. Do Hispanics "dominate" Mexico? Do Japanese "dominate" Japan? Wanting to retain the traditional ethnic composition of the US is not an aggressive, domineering policy. Your choice of words reveals your underlying negative attitudes towards whites. Your implication is that whites have no right to be in America in the first place.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You sure love your semantics.

Actually, you know you agree with me. You are married to a Hispanic who recently became American thanks to you.

We are multi ethnicities. We are a melting pot in our great USA. We continue to evolve and intermarry.

Go back to some of Hrans and Pats earlier posts. They want a White Northern European ethnicity majority here. I know you do not.


Liquid quote:
Multi-ethnical with Multi-cultural. We are a diverse nation, not a multi-cultural nation

Dee said...

And Alie,
Read my post to Liquid. Maybe you will get it. There are those that want a White Northern European dominance in this country. They disagree with intermarrying of ethnicities-races. They want to figure out a way to maintain this dominance.

Think Melting Pot.
And stop throwing side issues at the subject. There is no ANTI Assimilation groups.
Think Melting Pot. Melting Pot!!

Alie said...

Dee, I am sorry, but you are wrong about there being no encouragement by some activist groups and political pressure for immigrants not to assimilate. But, I have a feeling that you know that, but just will not acknowledge it. Those opposing assimilation call assimilation "cultural genocide." They do not feel that we have the right to expect newcomers to adapt to the existing culture and think we should make endless concessions to the immigrants so they can maintain their own languages and cultures. Surely you have heard of this term in relation to opposition to assimilation.

Latinos are disparate because, and this is coming from their own mouths, they are not of "Western" culture, but of "indigenous." They have a deep seated resentment and hostility towards whites and Western culture in general. I am telling you what THEY THEMSELVES have told me. So, don't shoot the messenger. The fill the pro-illegal forums.

Dee, I have been reading blogs in just the last few days where Latinos have expressed this sentiment. I am not making it up.
Now, maybe years ago this was not the case; it probably was not with you if you are an older person. But, it is now. The only thing I do not know is how many Latinos buy into this ideology. From what I saw of the signs during the marches and since then, I think there is a significant number in certain areas.

I just recently read an article written by a teacher--actually of Latino descent but he is a patriotic American who loves this country--about raza studies being taught in the Tuscon Area schools where anti-American, anti-white propaganda and resentment is being taught to the young children there. This is not good and it is happening and taxpayers are actually funding it. This man had the courage to speak out and was called a "sell out" by other Latinos for blowing the whistle on this curriculum. So, please do not continue to say that this does not exist. We cannot continue to have a dialogue if you deny what is in front of our eyes.

I think you are confusing "culture" with "ethnicity." This country is made up of many different ETHNICITIES which have assimilated into the culture. Take me for example: my family is of Italian descent, and we have our customs and foods that we share with our friends and neighbors. But, we do not consider ourselves Italians FIRST. We would not stick up for other Italians over Americans just because we share their ethnicity.

Here's another example of culture clash and non-assimilation: in MN there are Muslim taxi drivers at the airport who are refusing to transport customers because they might be carrying unopened bottles of liquor by claiming that it is against their Islamic faith. Dee, we do not have Sharia Law in the U.S. This is an example of "disparate culture." A person like this needs to remain in a country where he can practice Sharia Law without any impediments. I hope you can understand this; if not, I just don't know what else to say. What else are we to accept in the name of "multiculturalism" and "tolerance?"

When people come in numbers where they can eventually be assimilated, things work out. Some cultures more easily assimilate than others. It is normal for people to resist assimilation to a certain extent. When too many people from one culture immigrate in a relatively short period of time, they tend to colonize rather than assimilate. This isn't because they are bad people; it is simply human nature. They want what is familiar to them.

Also, I have no clue as to Ultima is. If you are insinuating that Ultima and I are the same person, rest assured that is not the case. I merely found this blog interesting and thought I could contribute something in the way of discussion.

Alie said...

Dee, I am not saying that I *want* a white, Northern majority population here. I am asking why you seem to find that offensive when you obviously don't feel it offensive for other ethnciities to maintain a majority in their countries. It's as though you hold a majority non-white country to be MORE desireable than a majority white one.

In addition, I made the point that no people, no ethnicity chooses to become a minority. That simply has never happened in any society in history. And futhermore it is my opinion that most countries and societies would object to the diminishment of their ethnicity through illegal immigration into their country. I am currently thinking of various countries--Russia, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Israel, China, India--and I just cannot believe that any one of these would embrace a complete ethnic/demographic change to their nations through illegal immigration. I especially don't think they would embrace importing ethnic populations who had a grievance against them. That would just be contrary to common sense IMO.

Anonymous said...

As far as assimilating, why in all of the history of the USA, no other group of immigrants, legal or not was catered to as are the hispanics who are coming into the country now. Press 1 for English?
Bilingual and ESL classes. Where in history would we have let some group of illegal law breakers march and demand anything? No, this
recent migration is nothing like
any other group of immigrants that
we have ever seen.
And alie, you sum up this issue eloquently.

Dee said...

Alie,
Sorry. Not True.
Please provide a url to back up this bogus statement.

Alie said:
but you are wrong about there being no encouragement by some activist groups and political pressure for immigrants not to assimilate.

Dee said...

Alie,
My, my. Now it looks like you are opposed to Native Americans too. What is up with you Alie?



Allie said:
Latinos are disparate because, and this is coming from their own mouths, they are not of "Western" culture, but of "indigenous."

Dee said...

Allie,
Yikes!! Your false assumptions are making it very, very clear about your true agenda here.
Americans who are Latino are NOT disparate. We are loyal Americans! We are hard working, contributing. We are Christian. Family Focused. We are pro Military and we love our USA!


Allie said:
Latinos are disparate

Dee said...

Allie,
Here is where you are missing the boat. No one is asking anyone to become a minority.
Our great USA was an experiment. "Give me your tired, your poor,. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". We were to become the land of the free and the home of the brave. All men and women created equal. Europeans married Native Americans. All ethnicities intermarry and evolve into one great society. We are continuing to evolve.

However, there are many, including some White Nationalists who visit my site, who do not want the intermarrying nor the melting pot to continue. They are afraid of losing their White Northern European dominance. That is what we are discussing Allie.

Allie said:
In addition, I made the point that no people, no ethnicity chooses to become a minority. That simply has never happened in any society in history.

Alie said...

Dee, there is no organization that bills itself as an "anti-assimilationist" organization, but it is implicit in how these organization resist steps which would facilitate assimilation or shoring up our culture. LaRaza would be one I can think of off the top of my head. But, multiculturalism IN ITSELF is anti-assimilationist. Bilingual education is anti-assimilationist.

Here is a PDF on Hispanic assimilation which was written by Linda Chavez. It might explain better than I can. The entire document is very interesting, but the part which deals specifically with how new immigrants are catered to in contrast to how immigrants in the past century were expected to assimilate starts on page 387.

http://media.hoover.org/documents/0817998721_383.pdf

Also, I have no agenda. I thought I made it clear to you that I was only relaying what LATINOS THEMSELVES were saying to me. They stated that *THEY* do not want to be a part of what they consider "white" culture. THEY are making the distinctions; THEY are separating themselves out. Many of them also go out of their way to deny their Spanish roots as they feel that the Spaniards committed genocide against the indigenous and they want no part of Western culture. THEY consider assimilating into our culture to be "cultural genocide." Where do you think I got that term? Do you think I made it up out of whole cloth? All you have to do is google the term and you will learn all about what I am saying. As well, you could google "anti-assimilationist movement" and get about a bazillion hits. Like I said, don't blame the messenger.

Alie said...

Oh, and Dee, just to clarify: I am not suggesting that ALL Latinos are against assimilation or have animosity towards the majority (Anglo) population. But, many do. They are being indoctrinated in MEChA groups and Chicano studies groups all over the country. These programs emphasize all of this country's negatives and foster a grievance mentality, and exploit any sense of disenfranchisement. It is at its core a political agenda.

IMO, patriotic Latinos need to stand up against this (like that Latino teacher in Tuscon) just the way that moderate Muslims need to stand up against radical Islamists. (And NO I am not calling Latinos terrorists; just using this example as an analogy)

Dee said...

Allie,
As you go on, it has become abundantly clear to me that you have issues in regards to Latinos. I wonder what caused your fear and anxiety. Perhaps you had a run in or an argument or maybe even a broken heart. I dont know. But it is obvious in your writing that you have an issue.

Some of your assumptions are beyond the pale. First, NCLR is a Humanitarian organization. Go to their website. Read their mission.

In past posts, I have written about the term "La Raza" itself. I can send you a link if you want.

You see Alie, Latinos are people. We are just like you.

You can send me your email. Mine is dee_perezscott@yahoo.com

Dont worry. Lots of people send me their emails and I keep all info private. I wont give it out. Ask others if you like. They will tell you.

I like talking to you Alie. You are bright and carry on a good conversation.

Allies statement:
there is no organization that bills itself as an "anti-assimilationist" organization, but it is implicit in how these organization resist steps which would facilitate assimilation or shoring up our culture. LaRaza would be one I can think of off the top of my head. But, multiculturalism IN ITSELF is anti-assimilationist. Bilingual education is anti-assimilationist.

anon 1 said...

"Here is where you are missing the boat. No one is asking anyone to become a minority.
Our great USA was an experiment. "Give me your tired, your poor,. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". We were to become the land of the free and the home of the brave. All men and women created equal. Europeans married Native Americans. All ethnicities intermarry and evolve into one great society. We are continuing to evolve."

Great statement Dee. It's just too bad so many choose to forget.

Plus, does anyone else get tired when someone deems another a patriot who's never faught in a war? It's my opinion that republican's are SOOO good at labeling and have thrown this term around that shouldn't be. A patriot is not just someone who loves their country. EVERYONE loves their country, doesn't make them a patriot, in the same sense it doesn't make them UN PATRIOTIC to question their countries decisions. For instance, if I don't believe in deporting 12 million ILLEEEEEGAL immigrants (or redneck translation: aliens) that doesn't make me un-patriotic. Just means the idiot who thinks that, brain-washed and stupid.

But hey, thats just my opinion (free country right).

patriot said...

alie, I am so enjoying reading your posts. I hope you don't get discouraged but continue to post in here.

There is a difference between the terms "multi-cultural" and the "melting pot." I am glad that you do know the difference. The melting pot is like a stew where different ingredients are added but none of these ingredients overpowere the initial flavor of the stew. It still remains the the original stew but with a bit more spice.

Multi-culturism means not having an identifying culture in a country or a traditional society. That would mean not having a common language and no common bond and heritage among the populace. We are a melting pot, not multi-cultural as you know.

Also, I don't know of many Americans who object to the different races or ethnic groups intermarrying. I know that I don't. What I wish to preserve is the traditional culture in this country. That will still be accomplished even thru intermarrying as long as both parties have assimilated into our core culture. It has nothing to do with skin color or race anyway.

Just like you, I have nothing against Latino citizens as long as they do assimilate and respect the laws of our country and don't wish to change our core culture. "Some" as you have stated do hold resentments against White Americans over past history and think that we Whites have no right to be in this country. "Some" even have a reconquista agenda.

As I said, I hope you continue to post in here as you are getting rave reviews by many people in here. I admire someone of your age with so much intelligence and patriotims towards our country

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said:
"Go back to some of Hrans and Pats earlier posts. They want a White Northern European ethnicity majority here. I know you do not."

You are reading to much into what they are saying. I only agree that the USA is a Diverse nation, we are not multi-cultural, but multi-ethnical. We have a dominating culture that others blend into and add a little of their own flavor to, which is what Allie and Hran and Pat have been saying. My wife is Portuguese, neither Latino nor Hispanic. They are not wanting a "Northern White European" majority, what they are saying, I believe is, our American culture, is what is at risk of changing due to "non-assimilation by "Illegal Immigrants".

We are overwhelmed by them, our schools and infrastructure, and are not being absorbed culturally into our society. They stay in there own enclaves, simply because that is what they are use to and feel comfortable in.

Dee said...

Anon 1,
Thank you for bringing sense back into this discussion. There are so many people that are ANTI whoever and make up assumptions about them just because they want to have some rationale for their anger.
It is sad.

Dee said...

BTW Alie,
You said you have visited several forums that advocate NO Assimilations. I have never seen a forum like this.

Please provide the urls to these forums. I would like to be on your side in those debates.

Frankly, I dont believe there are any and would be happy to be on your side if you produce the urls.

Dee said...

Pat,
You have just proved you dont know what you are talking about.

Pat Said:
Multi-culturism means not having an identifying culture in a country or a traditional society.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Unbelievable. You know as well as I do that Hran has admittedly said he is a White Nationalist and he does not want intermixing of the races and he prefers a white dominant society in America. And Pat agreed.

Your wife if much more like me than you. We are an evolving society. So our are children. America is not the same ethnicity mix it was 100 years ago, 50 years ago. As we continue to intermarry, we will continue to evolve.

When I was a young girl, we could not wear skirts above our knees nor do the twist. Do you think the Americans of today would be accepted 40 years ago? Nope! Not at all.

We are an evolving culture. What we accept today will not be accepted 50 years from now.

Who knows what tomorrow brings.
I know one thing, you can neither predict nor control it!

Liquidmicro said...
Dee said:
"Go back to some of Hrans and Pats earlier posts. They want a White Northern European ethnicity majority here. I know you do not."

You are reading to much into what they are saying.

Dee said...

When I lived in New Bedford, MA area a few years ago, there was a large community of Portugese families. They kept their language, their church and their restaurants. I enjoyed their festivals and their welcoming. I was not offended that they kept their culture. New Bedford and the Portugese community has been like this for decades and decades.

I remember when I bought my house there from a Portugese family. The wife was trying to speak Portugese to me. I was somewhat trying to follow along because Spanish and Portegese and Italian are all similar. The husband poked her in the ribs and said, She is not Portugese, she is Latina. The wife said, Well she is still just like us.
It was very cute.

patriot said...

I don't like being misquoted. I want to retain our traditional culture in this country. A continued white majority would ensure that. Just as a continued latino majority would ensure the Hispanic culture remains the core identity of Latino countries. I also said that I don't have a problem with the races/ethnic groups intermarrying. I stated that openly. Everyone should read the posts carefully and not accuse others of things they never said or twist them to their liking.

Dee said...

Pat,
Your problem is you are full of hate and you have a certain distaste for any other ethnicity.

I truly feel sorry for you Pat.
I refuse, however, to allow you to hijack my site any longer. I know your purpose is to disrupt my website and frankly I am very tired of your name calling. I am monitoring your posts very tightly for the next month.



Pat said:
I don't like being misquoted.

Dee said...

Allie,
I am still waiting on the links for the discussion forums you said you participated on which were ANTI Assimilation.

Please post them as soon as possible. I want to visit them today.

Dee said...

I want to share some links to New Bedford, MA. This is a Portugese American Community, proud of its culture and history.

Portugese School

Portugese Capital of US

Portugese President visits Portugese Capital in America

Alie said...

Well, Dee, you can start with the Hispanic Business Forum. I have read the most outrageous statements on that forum that I've seen anywhere.

I saw one of the moderators say that he was in favor of deporting all of those of European ancestry. He meant it, too. This wasn't just some kook who wondered in, but a moderator!

There are several on there who have a radical belief that the U.S. is "rightfully Mexicans' land" and that we have no right to have immigration laws which would keep any of them out.

There are a couple who are the most rabid anti-white people, who blame all whites for injustices committed centuries ago. They don't care if your ancestors actually did anything wrong or not; just the fact that you have white skin is enough to indict. They say that they can't wait for whites to become a minority in this country and one of them even said that whites have screwed this country up enough and now it was time for the non-whites to take over.

A few of them are Chicano nationalists and are completely against assimilation from what I can tell.

There are all kinds of Chicano forums and blogs. I'm sure you can find them easily by doing a google search.

Actually, my views on immigration are not that extreme. I would consider some kind of legal status (not citizenship) for some of those already here IF I trusted our government to secure the borders and stop further illegal immigration (but I don't). However, when I read the comments on that forum and a couple of others, I just couldn't believe it. It made me have second thoughts. I don't read it anymore as it just upset me and who needs that, right?

Anyhow, Dee, I don't know how much longer I'll be posting here, but I wanted to thank you for having a forum where I can express my views and be responded to with some measure of civility. I really think that these issues need to be discussed even if they make us feel uncomfortable. I do think your blog is interesting and you have some very intelligent posters unlike some other blogs I have read.

patriot said...

I don't hate any ethnicity and to make that remark is very untrue. If a blog owner asks that no one resort to name calling, that should include the blog owner also.

I don't think expressing my opinion just like all the other anti's in here do is "hyjacking" anything. My replies have been to alie. I haven't said anything uncivil (as in defending myself) in the past couple of days. Please point out what I have said in the past 24 hours that would be subject to deletion.

Dee said...

I loved the New Bedford area. It was so rich in culture and history!

Here is more from the Portugese President´s visit last year:

"President Silva is traveling to the United States to attend the opening of a major Portuguese-themed exhibit in Washington, D.C., on Wednesday.

But his stops in SouthCoast are what have the locals talking.

"I don't know if New Bedford would be as excited if President Bush came over here," said David Alves, New Bedford City Council president. "It has become, within the Portuguese community, the topic of conversation."

Mr. Alves traces his roots to the Azores and northern Portugal. He has visited the Azores, but said he would like to talk with President Silva about sending a City Council delegation to Lisbon sometime in the future.

"I'm looking forward to meeting with him," he said.

"The fact that this is the fist president of Portugal to visit this region in 21 years it think it already speaks to the importance of this event," said Frank B. Sousa, director of Center for Portuguese Studies at UMass.

Mr. Sousa said the area is home to the oldest Portuguese community in the United States. He also said that recent exciting developments as the growth of Portuguese studies at UMass and the whaleman gallery project are some of the reasons he thinks President Silva chose to stop in the area."

Dee said...

Allie,
Sorry. HB never, ever advocates ANTI Assimilation. That is an out and out lie.

Please provide the forum links you said you participated in that argued the ANTI Assimilation issue.

I want to review them tonight.

Dee said...

Regarding Reconquista, there is NOT ONE forum that advocates making US into Mexico states. NOT ONE.

You said you participated in forums that discussed ANTI Assimilation. Please provide the links.

I want to visit them tonight.

Dee said...

Pat,
I will give you one thing.
In the last 2 days, since I have held you accountable for your words and actions, you have maintained a civil attitude.

As long as you are civil, I am fine with your staying.
You must admit, your name calling took me to the limit.
I am very liberal and support both sides debating and sometimes even getting heated. However, I do not abide by name calling or non civility.

You are free to stay as long as you maintain civility. Lets not discuss this any further because it distracts from this discussion. We will live by our actions.

Dee said...

Alie,
Thank you for visiting.
We do have a good group here. All are very intelligent and we do maintain civility.

I wish you well and I do hope that you provide me the links to the forums you say you have participated in that advocate all the radicalism you say is out there. I have not seen any. I would like to visit them and dispute their opinions. (if they are out there.)

Liquidmicro said...

What Hran said is, by definition he is a White Nationalist. Do you remember when he said that?? I stated I am a Nationalist as well, not a Globalist and that I am White, too. Yet, by definition, you did not deem me a White Nationalist. Hran has also stated that he does not agree with some of the teachings of the groups that you are calling White Nationalist or KKK.

As for Portuguese communities, we have one here where we live, they have a community gatherings every now and then, great food!!! Yet they live the American lifestyle. Go figure!

HB Forums, you are aware Joel Rios is now a Moderator there. His ramblings are still "Lost in Space", the part between his ears. DSoo9 is a Chicano Nationalist over there, and there is only the small click of 4 or 5 regular members still posting there. However, they do still, at times, advocate things that are beyond the scope.

patriot said...

Well that's fine with me, dee. Let's call a truce. But I have never name called in here unless you or another member in here attacked me first. You know that is true.

It really bothers me when blog owners and moderators say they want civil debate but they don't follow their own rules.

I think the best course of action here would be for you to not reply to my posts and I won't reply to yours. There are plenty of other members in here that I can discuss the issues with.

patriot said...

Liquid, I have also read the posts in the Hispanic Business Forum. Another reconquista in there is Chuey. Oscar, a moderator, also thinks that Whites are here illegally. There used to be a member in there until recently that was totally anti-assimilation and stated exactly that and her name was Airesflores.

A member by the name of Tony calls White people all kinds of nasty names all the time. I read one just recently that really made me sick.

Anyway as far as the reconquista movement goes, it is my understanding that they don't want to return any southwest states to Mexico but to set up a seperate nation within our nation for Chicanos. It wouldn't really be a part of Mexico.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I am disappointed. I thought better of you Liquid.

Regarding your areas Portugese ethnic festival is not the same as Little Portugal in New Bedford. Read the posts I provided. I liked the area. They are American yet the maintained their culture. They even invited the Prez of Portugal for a visit. I dont hear any outcry from your side for this.

Regarding Joel. I know you dont like him. Leave the guy alone. He is a great young man! He is a proud American and also proud of his ethnicity!


Liquid said
I am a Nationalist as well, not a Globalist and that I am White, too. Yet, by definition, you did not deem me a White Nationalist.

Liquidmicro said...

I don't dislike Rios. I just think that he doesn't think some things through all the time. His arguments were mediocre at best and only at times.

There's nothing to be disappointed in, your Liberalism doesn't allow you to fully understand the meanings of the words used, you prefer labels versus arguing points at times. By the same definition as you labeling Hran, Allie, or others "White Nationalists", you could be labeled a "Brown Nationalist".

Anon1 was trying to make a point @10:16 AM, although he failed to complete it and his verbiage was off.
His point being, It's OK for people to show Pride in their Race and/or Culture, however, Pride should not be the only thing one shows. Respect would be another, tolerance even more so. Don't turn this into a RACE WAR, when it clearly is not. Its a simple matter of being in the country without proper authorization, working with false/fake/forged/stolen documents and employers exploiting these people for it. Justice should be served across the board, i.e. "Illegals" should be repatriated and employers should be held liable, fined and jailed.

patriot said...

Excellent post, Liquid! I totally agree.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said:
"Regarding your areas Portugese ethnic festival is not the same as Little Portugal in New Bedford. Read the posts I provided. I liked the area. They are American yet the maintained their culture."

My areas Portuguese ethnic festival??? You are mis-reading what I had stated. Read it again:
"As for Portuguese communities, we have one here where we live, they have community gatherings every now and then, great food!!! Yet they live the American lifestyle. Go figure!" Where I live here in CA is a Portuguese community. This taken from the Travel guide of my city. "The Holy Ghost Festival and Picnic, a week-long celebration, is also held in May and celebrates Lincoln's Portuguese heritage.....A parade, a carnival featuring traditional Portuguese customs and foods, and the crowning of a queen highlight the festival." Even with this being a Portuguese community, they still live the American lifestyle... they go to the malls, the movies, baseball games, basketball games, etc. They retain some of their heritage and incorporate it into their lifestyle.

As for your links, you are aware that the school link was from 1942 and is a catholic school. The Portuguese Capital in the USA link is about whaling from the 1800's. Today there is still a Portuguese community there, but not like it was back then. Your article about the Portuguese President visiting says: He "will" visit there, no where in that article does it state that he "has" visited there.

Please do more thorough investigations into your postings and arguments, semantics, one word, can change the whole meaning of the sentence and the outcome of the answer.

Hran said...

To clarify:

Yes, I differ from Patriot and others in that one of my goals is the defense, maintenance and survival of the white race. In my view, the term "ethnic" means a combination of race and culture. So there are many white ethnic groups: English, German, Portuguese, Italian, Polish etc. Racially, the American ethnic group is a combination of such groups. The core ancestry is British, Dutch, German. The "melting pot" means that Americans have mixed ancestry from a variety of European countries. It does not mean mixing with Asians, Mestizos, or blacks.

Yes, I am against whites intermarrying with non-whites.

However, Dee, I do not want whites to "dominate" as you continue to say. I just want us to be left alone to do our own thing. In YOUR version of America whites will be a minority, and will not be left alone. We will be discriminated against by hostile, non-white groups with a big self-righteous ax to grind.

I am in favor of returning to and maintaining the traditional ethnic composition of the US: at least 85% white and the rest mostly black Americans (ancestors of former slaves).

Dee, you have a contempt for traditional white majority America. You call it "Mayberry". In traditional America (in your view) whites do not just abide and live, they "dominate".

You yourself are part of the rising animus towards whites and white America that Alie referenced.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I do like you regardless of your misinterpretation of my intent and misinterpretation of what I am saying.
I think you are honest about your beliefs. I still say you are an ISJT (Myers Briggs – look it up).
I don’t demonize Hran. He is civil and honest.I am glad he is here. He is an admitted White Nationalist. (I do respect Hrans honesty) However the biggest area we disagree is intermarrying between races. If he wants his own family and his own group to live like this, that is his choice. But inflicting this on others is not an option.
Allie, if she is real and all she says she is, is still searching for answers. I don’t chastise her for this.
Pat.. ok I will stop being mad at Pat. He likes to yank my chain. Don’t worry I will get over being mad and yes I agree to a truce.
Anon1 and I are like minded but he is young and still searching and has so much to explore and offer us.
Joel is also young and idealistic. I like him and don’t like when people get on his case. He and I have spoken on the phone. He is a young husband and father, hard working and eager to contribute to this discussion.
I am a proud Liberal and a proud Humanitarian. I do tend to lead with my heart. I would not be involved in this discussion if I didn´t care about people, all people.
Regardless of what you think I think, I don’t claim to have the answers to our Immigration issues. I have my feelings, thoughts, hopes and dreams, but no solid answers.
I do not advocate a Race War. Just the opposite. Where you and I disagree is what to do about the 12M here. Perhaps we will always disagree.
One of my reasons for starting this blog was to get people talking. I was hoping some wise man or woman would enter my blog and start discussing these issues with all of us and lead us to supporting recommendations for resolving these issues.
I love peace and harmony. But maybe our future is not destined for peace and harmony.

Liquidmicro said...

There are way too many variables in the debate to solve all the problems at once. Some of the "Resolve" proposed has been distasteful to all sides of the argument. It's like the saying goes: You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time.

The biggest problem some of us have with you, is that you place in order your stance, yet when it comes right down to it, border security first, you yell fowl. You claim to want this yet do everything to prevent it from happening. CIR is your answer to everything, we had that before, it failed miserably.

You refuse to open your mind to looking at the debate from your opposer's views. You only see your side. You become defensive at times without reading and comprehending what is stated.

Dee said:
"I am a proud Liberal and a proud Humanitarian. I do tend to lead with my heart. I would not be involved in this discussion if I didn´t care about people, all people."

What makes you think that ANTI's don't care about people?? We make the argument that the "Illegals" are being exploited and that the visa system is put in place to try to prevent this from happening, yet you call us liars and chastise us for it. ANTI's understand the Rule of Law and are for enforcing the laws and changing them, such as E-Verify and the SAVE Act, thus to prevent employers from exploiting "Illegals" any further. We hold the "Illegals" accountable for their actions as well as the employers, yet you call us liars and chastise us for it.

So you see, we all care about the "Illegals", it's our directions that differ in what to do to solve the issues. We want equal penalties across the board, that means employers sanctioned/jailed/fined and "Illegals" repatriated, whereas you want the employers fined/jailed/sanctioned and the "Illegals" let off scott free with no guilt of their convictions.

Until we all agree with what to do with those here "Illegally", it will continue to be as it is now, more raids and checkpoints, which should have been going on all along.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said:
"I am a proud Liberal and a proud Humanitarian. I do tend to lead with my heart. I would not be involved in this discussion if I didn´t care about people, all people."


Here is another thought.... from Daniel on the Latina Lista blog.

Everyone I know left for Xmas and hasnt been back. Let the economy pick up and they'll return.

I think the economy has more to do with it than ICE or the border patrol does.

Us marching for them is the right thing to do but we're talking solidarity here and that is what we lack.

The reason is colonization. A symptom is ridicule by a few jealous corrajudos.

So long as ridicule by a few is more acceptable than support, there will be no solidarity.

That, and you have to change THEIR (the compas) mindset, too.

Why should we bolster them when they think we make Mexicans look bad?

Everytime I order Sears diehard construction boots for my guys I think about this.

And like a sucker I do the right thing.
....
It's just that SOMETIMES Mexicanos think (based on statements made to me), we Chicanos, are nothing but cholos and we make them look bad.

While, conversely, they are the good people and well liked.

It's hard to explain. I've had guys tell me "tu no tienes pais" and "tu no eres Mexican."

Compas are not saints. Compas are not beyond reproach. They should be judged, like every man, by the content of their character.

I guess the "boots" comment was just a rant. lol. Sorry.

I guess I get BUTT hurt when I buy my guys' shoes - the best expensive ones- and I dont even get a thank you from the compas.

I dunno.

It's just an IMO thing :D

I'm not a bad guy, honest.


Laura responds with:
Hi Daniel,

Dijiste: I've had guys tell me "tu no tienes pais" and "tu no eres Mexican."

Y entonces ? La verdad es que no eres mexicano mi parece. You are who you are, their history is different from yours, sometimes they don't understand you, sometimes you don't understand them. The important thing is, as you said, you know what solidarity is and so do they.


Now, being a humanitarian and a Liberal such as yourself, Dee, and Daniel and most on Latina Lista's blog, I come to the conclusion that the "Mexican Illegals" have no desire to incorporate into our "Western Culture", that they are only out for themselves, and take everything they can with not even a "Thank You!!"

http://www.latinalista.net/palabrafinal/2008/05/today_was_supposed_to_be.html

Now, Daniel is a Aztlan follower with his own blog spot here:
http://columnadeaztlan.com/
yet his father and wife are not Hispanic. He denies his genes and claims to be "Indigenous", hence changing his name to Mexitli.


My question is: What makes you humanitarians believe that these people wish to "come out of the shadows" or wish to be given Citizenship? Whats to guarantee that if they are granted citizenship that they don't become dependent on all the free handouts, like the boots given by Daniel, with no manners such as a simple "Thank You!!" Are they going to show there gratitude for this or are they going to show there self centered greed?

Dee said...

Liquid,
I´ve been thinking about what you said about your Portugese neighborhood near you. I lived in MA and often visited the Portugese neighborhood in New Bedford.
It reminded me of Southside San Antonio only in Portugese. Everyone spoke Portugese to each other but with English speakers they spoke English.
The restaurants had both Portugese and English. The foods were native Portugese.
The churches in the neighborhood had signs in front, written in Portugese.
The shops, the same, both languages.
It was a very friendly and welcoming place, just like San Antonio. The natives were all American, just like San Antonio, bringing in a piece of their homeland culture into their community.
I saw the same type of behaviors in the little Italy sections of Newark, only in Italian.
I had a girlfriend in New York that was Puerto Rican. Her home neighborhood was very ethnic as well.
From what I hear, the Cubano neighborhoods in Little Cuba in Miami are much the same.
I saw the same in Chinatown in Chicago or in Germantown and Polishtown in Detroit.
We are ALL Americans, bringing a piece of native culture into our home neighborhoods.
Nearby merchants pandered to the environment and offered bi lingual.
Now, close to my home neighborhood, there is a little Vietnamese neighborhood. Their church´s signs are posted boldly in Vietnamese characters.
We are ALL American, just bringing a little piece of our native culture into our home neighborhoods.

I honestly dont see why so many on your side have such a problem with this.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I agree with your statement. I think the key is for all of us to talk without all the name calling and anger. I think we have achieved this victory here on my blog. We have some very intelligent discussions here, all calm and civil. I give us ALL credit for this.

Ive been helping a team of PRO bloggers debate in another forum for the past few days. It was for one of the major newspaper blogs and they invited both sides to debate. Honestly, those ANTI bloggers are the worst. Absolutely uncivil, rude and have bogus arguments. It reminds me of the worst days at our old discussion board. I am not sharing the site with you Liquid or Ulty because the last thing they need is someone like you guys with some degree of logic. They would probably blow you off anyway due to their egos and their need to monopolize the conversations. Its pretty much over now anyway. Thank heavens!


Liquid said:
There are way too many variables in the debate to solve all the problems at once

Dee said...

BTW, hubby and I just saw the new Adam Sandler movie, "You dont mess with Zohan." It is an absolutely hilarious movie with a nice message. America is a melting pot. All sides can get along in Peace in America and forget 4000 year old wars and animosity that continues in the rest of the world.
BTW, Zohan is an illegal alien from the Middle East.

Dee said...

In the movie, all sides brought a piece of their culture with them into their neighborhoods.

Dee said...

All the immigrants NEW and OLD loved being American, living in Peace and Harmony. They talked about the racism towards all middle eastern groups since 9 - 11

Dee said...

And,
The bad guys were
1. a greedy big business man very Donald Trump like
2. a minutemen-militia like racist group

Dee said...

Liquid,
I like Daniel. He reminds me of Joel.
It is obvious you are not getting what he is saying.
Substitute the word Nerds for Mexican. Maybe you will get it.

I think I told you the story of when I was a little girl. We grew up in Michigan. Around the time I was born, my Dad decided to only allow English at home. I was the 7th child so it was easy for me. It was harder for my mom and my older brothers and sisters.
When I was 5, my Dad was layed off from his factory job (for a year) so we moved down to San Antonio. Everyone in the neighborhoods spoke English in the world but in the neighborhoods, they all spoke Spanish. I couldnt speak Spanish very well and they teased me when I tried. "Te crees mucho." They said.
Everyone was American. All Latinos.

More info for you Liquid.
In San Antonia, all of us were called Tejanos or Gringos (like Lupita used to say.) It wasnt that we all were NOT assimilated. It was just that we were all minorities (again, for minorities, substitute the word Nerds if this helps you understand), treated as minorities, the working class, striving for a better life. In our neighborhoods, no one was better or worse than anyone else. All striving to achieve the American Dream.

We were all trying, the best we could, as fast as we could, to assimilate and be excepted.
Some of us found, that by not associating with other minoarities that the White Anglos (substitute PREPs here if this helps you understand) would except us. Then, once accepted, we (minorities) were afraid to make friends with other Mexicans (substitute Nerds) for fear our very tender status would be obliterated and we would return to the minority (nerd), castigated group.

Don´t you get it Liquid.
Once a minority is accepted by the popular groups, they are So Very Afraid of losing acceptance status that they will turn on their own.

It is all So Very Sad!

patriot said...

Liquid, I think that most anti's like you and I agree that there is nothing wrong with business ethnic neighborhoods in this country. The ojbection is when an ethnic group takes over entire U.S. cities.

By the way, I know you and I have been into many both pro and anti blogs and forums. I think you probably found what I have, that it is the pro ones that are a lot more uncivil than the anti ones. I could give so many examples of it and I am sure you could also.

Liquidmicro said...

To say that the PRO's or the ANTI's are more uncivil is a toss up, it all depends on the topic/discussion/way the point is made, etc. Some try to read into what's being said and dismiss the point, then turn around and cover it up.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
I like Daniel. He reminds me of Joel.
It is obvious you are not getting what he is saying.
Substitute the word Nerds for Mexican. Maybe you will get it.

I don't think you are understanding my points, since you didn't answer any of my questions posed to you.

Liquidmicro said...

"Once a minority is accepted by the popular groups, they are So Very Afraid of losing acceptance status that they will turn on their own."

Daniel was told by his "Illegal" employees that he was not Mexican enough. They gave Daniel no "Thank You!!" for him supplying them with work boots.

The "Illegals" went home (back south of the border for Christmas), they have yet to come back, according to Daniel, due to the economy.

Now what makes you "Liberal Humanitarians" believe that these people wish to come out of the shadows? wish to become citizens here?

No stories, just a simple answer to the questions. No re-interpreting the story and going off on a tangent like you just did.

Liquidmicro said...

As for the Portuguese community here, my wife has to teach them their language, like I said they all live the American Lifestyle, speak English, very few speak Portuguese at all, it's broken at that. There are no signs in Portuguese, no restaurant menus, no church services in Portuguese. They still have festivals due to their "Heritage", NOT their "culture".

Semantics again, Dee. You are confusing and using interchangeably Heritage and Culture, they are NOT the same things.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I guess you´ve never been to New Bedford.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I am referencing the people who have been here for years, which is the bulk of the people here.
Daniel was obviously referencing the short timers who still have homes back in their home towns. Those that come for the short term $$.

However, you do bring up a point. If we bring people out of the shadows, then we can differentiate. Remember what I said, those that choose can be allowed to get in line and apply. The others who prefer Guest Worker status, Guest Worker visas.

Liquids question:
Now what makes you "Liberal Humanitarians" believe that these people wish to come out of the shadows? wish to become citizens here?

Liquidmicro said...

When was the last time you were in New Bedford? You bring up articles and print from the 1800's and 1942 and act as though it is today. I think someones been lost in time. Sure there is still approx. 35% Portuguese population there, but you act as though they have not assimilated, when all indicators are they have. Menu's being in other languages than English, isn't that for visitors that read that specific language, you know, tourists, usually from out of country.




Dee said...

Liquid,
I am referencing the people who have been here for years, which is the bulk of the people here.

Bulk of the people here having been here for years? Everything I have read states that most have come over in just the past five to seven years, due to our thriving economy, and the fact that they already had family members here, also "Illegally", and were promised and/or offered jobs through these "family" members.

One problem to the debate is the talking of different parameters, such is the case here. You are talking of those with "roots" and/or "family", i.e. having children that are/were born in the USA. We are talking all of them, no matter the circumstance. They all have commited crimes, if they work - document fraud; benefit fraud; misused SSNs, stolen or misappropriated birth certificates, and false or fraudulently-obtained driver’s licenses are the keys to identity fraud in the United States. With any one of these three documents, you can generally obtain the other two. We investigate thousands of SSN fraud and identity theft cases every year, and we often find the criminals have not only stolen or forged SSN information, but stolen or forged driver’s licenses as well.

Then we get into opening bank accounts, purchasing vehicles, homes, obtaining credit cards, these are all crimes, perpetuated by the "Illegal Immigrant", the longer they have been here, the deeper they are into it.

Do you not think it humane to, once caught, be repatriated and denied legal entry for 10 years, or do you prefer them to spend 10 - 50 years in Federal Prison? Are you willing then to dismiss the crimes of our own criminals such as drug offenders and identity thief's simply because they have children that were born here too?

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