Saturday, December 8, 2007

Global Economy, Dollar Nosedive and Illegal Immigration

I watched MSNBC yesterday. The news and business types were discussing the economy and housing bubble burst vs the jobs outlook. We continue with one of the lowest unemployment rates in recent history. The newsperson asked why our economy and jobs were not being affected. The business person sat back contentedly and said, “Because we are largely invested in the Global Economy.”

This brought me right back to our Global Economy discussions here. We discussed this on a recent blog per our friend Lupita´s recommendation:

"Our economy is just an illusion of economic growth. Big business has partnered with the Administrations from Reagan forward to develop a method to expand our labor force, push wages down and increase corporate profits. The method, via NAFTA and other agreements is to bring in non-English-speaking, easily exploitable, foreign, preferably semi-literate, deportable workers. As Bernanke has stated , “Higher incomes also tend to increase the demand for medical services so that, indirectly, higher incomes may also increase federal health expenditures.” That is why the immigration laws have gone unenforced and why they are in no hurry to pass any type of Immigration Reform. As long as they remain status quo, they will continue to reel in the profits."
Ultima provided us a very good link about the Dollar Nosedive (see summary below).

Given all we know about the Global Economy and the Dollar Nosedive, is the media just playing dumb? Or, is it part of the overall strategy to mislead and distract the public?

The Dollar Nosedive: (summary) The dollar era began on July 22, 1944. Delegates from 44 countries met in a conference in Bretton Woods, NH. The group, led by British Economist Maynard Keyes supported strongly by President Roosevelt, decided the U.S. Dollar, tied to gold, would be Global Economic Standard. Other countries´currency would derive their value from this standard. If an individual country's currency became too strong or too weak in relation to the US currency, its central bank would intervene by buying or selling US dollars. This was the start of the “Global Economy.” In 1973, the Bretton Woods system ended and per President Nixon´s recommendation, the dollar stood as the World standard with no Gold guarantee.

This worked well for the US. Americans could print green bills and sell them abroad without driving up inflation in their own country. They can go into debt to pay for war or enjoy the benefits of tax cuts. This attitude has led to a record US national debt of $5 trillion. Americans also enjoyed the luxury of consuming more than they produced. The balance of trade deficit grew from $80 billion in 1990 to a projected level of more than $700 billion in 2007. This is more than 5 percent of the country's GDP.

America paid for its economic boom by borrowing money. For years, huge amounts of capital have been flowing from poorer emerging economies into the United States, the richest nation on earth. This influx of foreign capital, most of it coming from the Far East, amounts to roughly $2 billion a day.

China holds the astonishing sum of more than $1.4 trillion in its reserves. The Chinese have invested most of their money in US Treasury Bills, a low-risk but also relatively low-return investment. In doing so, they have kept the dollar high and their own currency low, ensuring that their exports remain competitive.

While Asia finances America's excessive consumer spending, the Americans buy Asia's cheap T-shirts, cars and flat-screen TVs. "Getting this much into debt while at the same time enjoying returns on long-term government bonds of less than 5 percent -- I'd call it the biggest free lunch in modern economic history," says Harvard historian Niall Ferguson, referring to the audacity with which the Americans take advantage of their privileges as holders of the world's reserve currency.

The dollar's plunge in the last 10 weeks is a sign that America's pact with East Asia has become fragile. The Asians have become far less willing to buy dollars and Treasury bills. As the countries of the Far East become increasingly impatient with the United States, they have begun shifting their reserves to euros.

Lenders are unwilling to simply look on as the value of their US Treasury bills drops; they have already lost billions upon billions in recent weeks. The dollar's share of worldwide currency reserves has shrunk from 80 percent in the 1970s to about 65 percent today. China, Russia and Malaysia have already partially uncoupled their currencies from the dollar, and Kuwait plans to follow suit in May 2008. Many oil producers are now distancing themselves from the US currency, both for economic and ideological reasons.

Investment bank Morgan Stanley considers it unlikely that Saudi Arabia would abandon its peg to the dollar. But according to a recent study, smaller Gulf states could follow Kuwait's lead: "This could deal yet another psychological blow to the dollar" -- and to America, that once-proud economic power.

The nation is deeply uneasy, as the collective head scratching begins over the causes of the crisis. Many Americans feel by now -- and justifiably so -- that their future could be far gloomier than the present.
Note: All of this does tend to make the Pyramid of Capitalism all the more relevant today.

196 comments:

ultima said...

http://www.gao.gov/cghome/d08337cg.pdf

Dee said...

I read the powerpoint Ulty.

My favorite economist Rober Reich had some good suggestions in his latest blog.

He suggested:
"All we need do is recognize one simple fact: Lower-income people spend a larger portion of whatever extra income they get than those with higher incomes (in economic jargon, lower-income people have a higher marginal propensity to consume). So every dollar of a tax cut aimed at lower-income Americans packs a bigger stimulative punch than a dollar of tax cut aimed at those with higher incomes. By the same logic, every dollar of a tax increase on higher-income people has a smaller detrimental effect on their purchases than would a dollar tax hike on lower-income people."

Of course the RNC would never do this and they will continue on with their merry ways, so I doubt they make any logical steps any time soon.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

I am for compassionate deportation.

I wanted to share the following with you.

as per the following, do you have any links to articles that prove whether the exit of undocumented workers from oklahoma has successfully raised wages for unskilled workers in Oklahoma?

I am interested in the truth, no matter what the truth is

____________

Let's make the following assumptions
(1) There are millions of young men born in the US who leave high school without the skills needed to do anything but the most low skilled of jobs.
(2) If the wages and working conditions offered to them are attractive, more of them will enter the labor force
(3) Higher labor force participation will lead more of the ones that father children to actually marry the mothers of their children
(4) Higher labor force participation will lead more of them to avoid a life of crime
(5)Higher labor force participation will lead to a lifestyle that is healthier

If one accepts the above assumptions, it seems self-evident that higher wages for the native born unskilled will play a part in reducing many of the greatest problems in our society. Higher wages will reduce crime, reduce poor health, reduce drug addiction, reduce the number of children growing up without a father in the home.

As a staunch progressive, I hope for all of the above outcomes. If there were clear and un ambigous evidence that sharply reduced illegal immigration would dramatically raise the wages of the native born unskilled, and that the native born unskilled would rush in to the labor market, and that the above mentioned positive effects would materialize, I think that it would have a great impact on the current national debate on immigration.

Evidence that cutting illegal immigration pulls a substantial portion of the native born underclass up in to middle class norms of behavior would have a huge impact across the political spectrum.

A coalition of those that want less crime, less incarceration, a lower illigitimacy rate, fewer drug addicts, less hopelesness in our society - that coalition would be very broad.

Right now, that coalition does not exist, and i think part of the reason is that there is not enough proof that removing the undocumented has these great effects on society.

I think Oklahoma is a great laboratory for attempting to prove this. Most importantly, Oklahoma has actually already implemented the needed laws, and the undocumented have already left the state in great number. Second of all, the economy in Tulsa and Oklahoma City is healthy and growing, due to the $80 price of oil and a few other positive macro effects.

This is my hypothesis as to what is happening in Oklahoma right now - a typical employer of the undocumented - let's take for example a successful entrepreneur who owns twelve restaurants and employs 200 unskilled workers to bus tables, wash dishes, clean up, and take out the trash, is discovering that he has lost half his workers (they are undocumented folks fleeing the state) and can't replace them at the wage rate and working conditions that he had been paying.

He is right now doing a few things - improving the working conditions for his unskilled workers - treating his unskilled workers better - treating them as human beings instead of easily replacable cogs in the wheel, Raising wages, offering more training and offering more job benefits.

All of the above things are enticing enough to get some young men to choose employment rather than idleness.


George, If some respected labor market economist could dispatch a team to study this closely right now, as we speak, and produce some absolutely clear-cut evidence that the law in Oklahoma has attracted many unskilled native born people in to the labor force and cut Oklahoma's social problems, that evidence would, in my humble opinion have a huge impact on the national debate.

Let me cite an example - If you could show that the exodus of undocumented workers from Oklahoma raised the wages and labor force participation rate of the average African American 19 year old by a very large degree -if you could prove that this were happening, I know that this evidence would bring influential leaders of the African American community to come out in support of rolling out the Oklahoma legislation nationally.

Once you had prominent African Americans speaking out vocally for this cause, it would make white progressives come out in favor of the Oklahoma plan. Most white progressives are terrified of appearing to be racist, and will only publicly support this if they see prominent African Americans leading the way. What i am trying to say is that what is going on in Oklahoma has to be studied and documented and if it is it can provide the spark for the cause of reducing the number of undocumented workers in America

George, is there foundation money available to fund such a study? is there a need for some wealthy patron to pay a graduate student a stipend in order to get this done? What has to happen in order to get someone dispatched immediately to Oklahoma to take advantage of this once-in-generation opportunity to study something that is absolutely crucial to the living standards of the unskilled portion of our native born population?

Lupita said...

it would have a great impact on the current national debate on immigration.

But none on actual policy. It would be like discovering that Iraq had no WMD. So?

I know that this evidence would bring influential leaders of the African American community to come out in support of rolling out the Oklahoma legislation nationally.

So? Most black, indeed, most everybody is against the Iraq war. It makes no difference, The powers that be have another agenda.

it can provide the spark for the cause of reducing the number of undocumented workers in America

The spark will be The Crash, which is what your masters are trying to avoid.

Anonymous said...

Lupita

Don't be such a pessimist.

The elites of both political parties desperately want massive unskilled immigration.

they pushed hard for it. And in 2007 they were defeated.

Lupita, don't give up searching for the truth, don't give up speaking the truth. The truth can make a difference.


Let's all work together with honesty and sincerety to get to the truth about what happens to a state when the undocumented workers exit the state.

ultima said...

Businesses would have to accept a permanent scarcity of unskilled workers. Citizens in turn would pay more for their hotel rooms, lawn care, roofing, painting, fruits and vegetables—and have to do more of their dirty work themselves thereby taking the first steps to curb the nationwide epidemic of obesity.

In such a scenario, our present problems would vanish almost immediately, while prices for wage labor would steadily escalate making it possible for many of our citizens on the lowest rung of the economic ladder to make a living. In theory, American citizens without specialized skills would find themselves in far greater demand and would acquire greater leverage in negotiating more than minimum wages. In this scenario, the inclusiveness of daily habit and custom, married with active support of a higher sort of inclusiveness promoted by our schools and government, might make near-instant citizens with a greater degree of loyalty and allegiance than those currently created by the 14th amendment. We could hope then that the children of all immigrants would then have a greater opportunity to enter the middle class, becoming a part of the bourgeoisie disdained by Socialists, Marxists and Communists.

ultima said...

A major part of the problem, in addition to others who find menial labor unattractive at the present wages,many second generation Hispanics have no interest in doing the kind of work their parents did and, for one reason or another, drop out of school and become an indolent underclass. They then become easy prey for the separatists, MEChA, La Raza, Aztlanistas,ethnic studies professors and social studies teachers. They begin to romanticize the old country, old habits and old culture and become part of the population that thrives on victimology. Squeezing the labor market to increase wages is important but educational reform to return to a heavy emphasis on civics, history and pride in our country might begin to make some inroads into that part of the indolent population.

Dee said...

I wonder about that Ultima.
Would Americans and their children be willing to go back to the manual labor their grandparents performed? Would they give up their laptops, cellphones, GPS, DVD, ipod, iphone, or their work from home jobs? Will they stop flipping houses and turn to flipping burgers? I just don´t see it happening.

Anonymous said...

anon

This is wonderful idea to monitor the state of OK's employment now that the illegals are leaving the state. I have wondered all along why the African American community has not protested loudly against illegal immigration. I do believe they do not want to send out a message that would be considered racist but I also believe they do not want to send out the message that they would work for the unbelievably low wages that the illegals are working for. I am not focusing on just African Americans but also unskilled white and unskilled Americans of hispanic descent or unskilled of any ethnic group as long as they are American citizens. I agree that when employers must pay a living wage because they do not have millions of illegals taking those jobs, wages will rise out of necessity.

anon1

Anonymous said...

dee

Do you think all American have laptops? Do you not think there not any poor Americans? Yor are sorely mistaken. Are the millions of anchor babies sitting at home with their laptops? Are all citizens of hispanic descent either college educated or middle class? Don't you think illegals drive down the hourly wage for people in this category?

anon1

Dee said...

Easy prey? I think you match too much YouTube and Dobbs. There is no such thing as Reconquista and only a very few Aztlanistas. The only place I see them is on Michele Malkin´s website. You know, Malkin, the one with $$ in her eyes and evil in her heart who pretends the Japanese internment camps never happened and is using illegal immigration talk to make money.

Anonymous said...

Japanese internment camps were a mistake as these people were American citizens. Please don't confuse the illegal invasion coming across the Mexico border with those American citizens of Japanese descent. That is very insulting.

anon1

Anonymous said...

There is a chain of fast food restaurants all over Chicago and the suburbs of Chicago called Portillos. Any one who eats there will notice the employees are almost all hispanic and when asked any question will answer "No hablo Ingles" The few who take the actual orders speak English with an accent but do speak English. Most appear to be in the their early twenties. Possibly they were swept in by Ronald Reagan's 1986 amnesty fiasco but if this is the case, I do believe they would have gone to school here and would at least speak English. There are older employees also of hispanic descent who also answer "No hablo Ingles". If they are American citizens, I would surmise they must have learned English but this does seem to be the case. Even though Illinois and especially Chicago seem to pride themselves on being a sanctuary state and city, I have noticed that Portillos has recently been posting signs at their locations and in the local papers advertising to hire new employees.
I am wondering if they know they soon will be targeted by government rules for not checking the legal status of their employees. If Portillos loses all their apparently illegal employees, perhaps they will pay a decent wage and employ American citizens of any ethnic descent. I do believe that most Americans will not mind paying more for their purchases if they know that Americans would be hired and this would help curb illegal immigration.

Dee said...

Anon 1,

Actually, I heard Chris Rock say in one of his comedy shows, “I know they want us to get on board and be against illegal immigrants, but we ain´t gonna do it. Because I know as soon as they get rid of them, we´re next!”

Dee said...

Based on what has been happening with Jena 6 and the vigilante horn shooting of what he percieved as two black men breaking into a house, I would say Chris Rock is right.

Dee said...

Anon 1,
I know Americans have laptops – PCs and cell phones too. I am not mistaken.

Your language such as your use of the term “Anchor babies” tells us what your agenda is. You forget, these children are citizens and they are doing well. Many are in college, pursuing the American Dream.

Anon 1, I think you watch too much Dobbs. Ween yourself from his show and start participating more on my blog. Don´t forget. Bring your validating urls when you make such biased statements.

Dee said...

Anon 1,
The deplorable Detention RAPE centers are insulting. These crony owned prisons are a blight on our country, just as the Japanese Interment Camps were a blight. Shameful!


Hutto Detention Center (RNC Crony Owned Private Prison)

Dee said...

Anon 1,
I am curious about you. If you believe Portillos hires illegal immigrants and you are against illegal immigration, why do you go there?

PS: Glad you could join us. BTW, would you mind naming yourself something other than anonymous so we can distinguish you from others that post as anonymous? Jack, Mary or another name you choose would be good.

patriot said...

Why are you denying reconquista again, dee? I have provided video and all sorts of aticles whereby the reconquistas even admit their own agenda. How can you just blatantly lie like that? That is utterly disgusting.

patriot said...

dee, the Aztlantizas ARE the reconquista movement. They want to re-conquer parts of the southwestern U.S. and turn it into a separate nation called Aztlan of which they claim existed at one time. MECHA, a Mexican-American college organization all over this nation is based on this agenda. There are other groups outside of MECHA that have this same agenda. I already provided you with much proof of this including videos where the reconquistas actually state their agenda right on film.

Grow up dee, and stop being dishonest and repeating the same old lies that we have already proven you wrong on over and over in your bog.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Anon 1,
The deplorable Detention RAPE centers are insulting. These crony owned prisons are a blight on our country, just as the Japanese Interment Camps were a blight. Shameful!

To quote one of Lupita's sayings....
One ALLEGED rape case does not make it a RAPE center.

Dee said...

Pat,
You provided no proof.
The Youtube videos were the fake American Patrol videos.

Read about Racist Glenn Spencer and his FAKE strategy here:
Spencer has been referred to as a racist.. Groups such as the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center stated:

Spencer’s rhetoric departed sharply from that of legitimate immigration reform groups; Spencer did not target immigration so much as he targeted Hispanics, particularly those of Mexican origin, regardless of whether they were immigrants or not. Many of his writings and comments were simply thinly veiled diatribes against “Mexicans” (Spencer rarely differentiated between Mexicans and Americans of Mexican descent).

Spencer´s statements such as the following have fueled the debate:

"The United States and Mexico are two entirely different nations," Spencer declares. "The United States has as its founders people who came here for intellectual reasons, freedom of religion. Mexico was founded by a group of people who came to plunder, the conquistadors.... We have a clash of civilizations: the pilgrims versus the conquistadors, the civilization based on Newton's Principia Mathematica and the great philosophers of Europe versus the blood-and-sand character of Mexico, which is based on Aztec warriors and the conquistadors. We are asked to absorb millions of people from this culture; we are unable to assimilate them, so they are asking for their culture to be maintained here in ours. This is a direct threat to the Age of Reason, to the ascent of man, and will end in a massive conflict. It has to be stopped."


Spencer is a White Nationalist and this is why he promotes Reconquista FAKE theory and puts out those FAKE videos. He and Malkin and Dobbs are deplorable!

Liquidmicro said...

I am an American Citizen Dee, and I have NO laptop. Therefore, you ARE MISTAKEN.

Dee said...

More on Spencer and the motivations for hisFAKE Reconquista theories:

Spencer has a long history of association with the white nationalist magazine American Renaissance (often abbreviated as Amren). It describes itself as a "literate, undeceived journal of race, immigration, and the decline of civility", while its detractors accuse it of being racist and white supremacist. Jared Taylor, its publisher stated in May 2006: “I started American Renaissance 17 years ago in order to awaken whites to the crisis they face and to encourage them to unite in defending their legitimate interests as a race”

Liquidmicro said...

What is racist in the quote you provide. Seems to be a true account of history.

-"The United States and Mexico are two entirely different nations," Spencer declares. "The United States has as its founders people who came here for intellectual reasons, freedom of religion. Mexico was founded by a group of people who came to plunder, the conquistadors.... We have a clash of civilizations: the pilgrims versus the conquistadors, the civilization based on Newton's Principia Mathematica and the great philosophers of Europe versus the blood-and-sand character of Mexico, which is based on Aztec warriors and the conquistadors. We are asked to absorb millions of people from this culture; we are unable to assimilate them, so they are asking for their culture to be maintained here in ours. This is a direct threat to the Age of Reason, to the ascent of man, and will end in a massive conflict. It has to be stopped."-

Dee said...

Liquid,
Please re read what I said. My 1st statement was, “Would Americans give up their laptops?” Then when anon 1 said “Do you think ALL Americans have laptops.” I responded, “I know Americans have laptops and PCs”.

Where did I say all? And what are you typing on, two cans?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

More on Spencer and the motivations for hisFAKE Reconquista theories:

Spencer has a long history of association with the white nationalist magazine American Renaissance (often abbreviated as Amren). It describes itself as a "literate, undeceived journal of race, immigration, and the decline of civility", while its detractors accuse it of being racist and white supremacist. Jared Taylor, its publisher stated in May 2006: “I started American Renaissance 17 years ago in order to awaken whites to the crisis they face and to encourage them to unite in defending their legitimate interests as a race”

December 9, 2007 11:34 AM


Sounds just like MeCHA and La Raza. No difference other than the color of skin.

Liquidmicro said...

I'm typing on a home PC not a laptop, mine is not portable. However I can design and build you a PC that looks like 2 cans if you wish, mine looks like a fish tank.

Dee said...

Thanks Liquid, but I will just use my laptop.

patriot said...

dee, so the people in those videos were all props of some anti-groups? The films were all fake? I provided several for you. Who were those people in those films, dee? They sure looked Hispanic to me and many were yelling in Spanish and the signs they were carrying about reconquista were undeniable. Even telling white Americans to go back to Europe. Are you denying all of this? What is wrong with you?

It has been well known by everyone what MECHA stands for and that is reconquista of the west for a new nation called Aztlan. You yourself just admitted the existance of the Aztlantizas in this country. How can you then deny the videos that they were in?

You just prove yourself to be more and more of a habitual liar in here, dee. At least have the decency to admit that those MANY videos I proved you are athentic and that reconquista does exist thru the Aztlantisa movement.

Dee said...

Pat
I feel very sorry for you. You are a victim of the extremist websites and you believe all of their lies.

ADL has said American Patrol is a racist hate group. Spencer is a known White Supremist. He hates all hispanics, including citizens. You happen to believe his fake videos and the LIES his group promotes. I have provided you VALID urls which say all but you do not read them. Check out Spencer and American Patrol yourself. Try, please try to read and understand the truth!

Dee said...

So, back to topic. Given all we know about the Global Economy and the Dollar Nosedive, is the media just playing dumb? Or, is it part of the overall strategy to mislead and distract the public?

Dee said...

One last thing I will reiterate. The VAST MAJORITY of immigrants (legal and illegal) who come here, come here seeking the American Dream. They do NOT seek to reclaim America to some other country. We all know this.

It is just plain silly for groups like American Patrol or Glenn Spencer or any other proclaimed (by ADL) hate group to make such outrageous claims with pieced together videos with unrelated dialogue and terrorizing music.

What is even sillier is that anyone in the ANTI crowd seriously believes any of it.

Most logical ANTIs know better.

It is the naive and followers that do believe them and that is what is dangerous for this discussion because all those videos do is hope to instill hate, anger and violence into these discussions when instead we should be coming together, as Americans, speaking logically and civilly, seeking SOLUTIONS!

Dee said...

Ok Liquid.
You said you would design me a PC in any design I want.
I just finished decorating my Christmas Tree and it is all white and silver. It is so beautiful.
I want a PC with this design for the holidays. Just beautiful!

Anonymous said...

Let's all come up with a solution that is good for America

here are the facts

(1) There are plenty of American citizens who don't have the ability to do anything more than flip burgers

(2) Right now, the burger flipping jobs pay less than $20,000 a year

(3) $20,000 a year is not enough to support a family.

Ok there is no dispute about the above facts.

Here is what IS in dispute

ONE THEORY is that if many undocumented are deported and if zero unsikilled people are allowed in to the US in the future that wages for unskilled US citizens will go up.

Burger flipping jobs and other unskilled jobs will pay much higher wages. Burger flippers will join the middle class. All sorts of pathological behavior among burger flippers will go down. Fewer of them will turn to crime.

IS THIS THEORY CORRECT? IF I AM A US CITIZEN WORKING AS A BURGER FLIPPER, WILL I START TO MAKE MUCH MUCH MORE MONEY AS A RESULT OF DEPORTATION AND AN END TO UNSKILLED IMMIGRATION

Let's get the evidence on the table - let's get the truth on the table.

Dee said...

Very good point Anon!!

I wonder who will be the first to respond to your argument. (they will probably try to deflect the discussion since they don´t have a response)

Dee said...

Just to add to what you are saying anon, here is an article

In 2006 the town became the first municipality in New Jersey to enact legislation penalizing anyone who employed or rented to an illegal immigrant. Many businesses and the town went out of business. Sept 2007, the town rescinded the ordinance hoping and praying business comes back.

Dee said...

Oklahoma is already feeling the impact of the xenophobic law they instituted in November.

Fear may cause revenue drop, treasurer says

Tulsa World | 12/9/2007
The apparent exodus of thousands of Hispanics due to fear of Oklahoma's new immigration law could explain the recent drop in sales tax revenue, a top finance official said.

"If it is true that a lot of people left this state because of that bill, as we're hearing anecdotally, then you would expect to see a dip in your sales tax collections,” state Treasurer Scott Meacham said.

Anonymous said...

Negatives of the oklahoma law

(1) if you are trying to go to a restaurant you will pay higher prices

(2) if you want someone to mow your lawn or clean your house you will pay higher price

(3) some businesses, dependent on low paid labor, will shut down

(4) government collects less in sales tax

POSITIVES OF THE OKLAHOMA LAW

(a) If you are a us citizen who doesn't have the skills or ability to do anything other than super low skill stuff like flip burgers or mow lawns, your income will go up THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH WILL IT GO UP

(b) if you are a us citizen who works flipping burgers, your boss realizes that it is now damn hard to find burger flippers, so your boss tries to set up an overall more humane work environment THE QUESTION IS HOW BIG IS THIS IMPACT

(c) if you are a 19 year old with no skills who last year decided to sit around and do nothing since the wages available were so low, and you notice that wages are now higher, you decide to accept a job and enter the workforce HOW BIG IS THIS IMPACT?

Heck, if we can be certain that (a) (b) and (c) are really happening in a huge way, most people will accept the negatives in order to get the positives

HOWEVER if (a) (b) and (c) are really small, then most people will not be eager to accept the negatives.

Let's keep listening for the truth

If someone can prove that wages for unskilled us citizens shoot up and that this leads us citizens with no skills to stop taking drugs, stop committing crimes, stop having kids out of wedlock, then the oklahoma law will get huge support from all segments of society.

Dee said...

more from Oklahoma

Ethnic group fears HB 1804's economic effect

The state's new immigration law, which is having the greatest effect on Hispanics, also is harmful to the Middle Eastern community, members of the Governor's Ethnic American Advisory Council said Friday.

Council Chairman Marjan Seirafi-Pour said university and college students and workers who are Arabic, Iranian and Pakistani have reported problems either with their visas or with their jobs.

Dr. Mohammad Karami, a council member, said it makes no sense to pass legislation to drive immigrants from the state.

"We are going to see a huge, huge economic effect,” he said, as businesses find it difficult to find workers. The law could also discourage some businesses from coming to Oklahoma, he said.

patriot said...

I am going to tell you one more time dee and see if you can get this thru your thick skull. Most anti's like myself can think for ourselves. We are not persuaded by Dobbs, Beck or anyone else. Illegal immigration is against the law. That in itself is enough to make us view things the way that we do. So stop with the "we are just zombies" theory of yours. You are looking to blame the anti movement on certain leaders in this group. It isn't based on that. It is based on the rule of law and you just can't stand that!

I didn't claim that the whole pro movement was about Aztlan/reconquista. But you are trying to claim that reconquista doesn't exist at all and that is a plain out lie and you know it dee.

You are the one who brought it up in this topic, not me or anyone else. Now that you have been proven wrong, you want to "get back on topic".

I just want you to be honest for once and admit that the Aztlanista/reconquista movement does exist and admit that those videos are authentic. Are you going to admit it or are you going to continue to lie and be dishonest?

I am willing to admit that their are radicals on the anti side. At least I can be honest. Can you? I'll be waiting, dee.

Anonymous said...

We keep seeing all these posts saying that the new law in Oklahoma will make it hard for businesses to find workers.

For example
We are going to see a huge, huge economic effect,” he said, as businesses find it difficult to find workers.

Well, a business in Oklahoma that employs heart surgeons has always faced a shortage. It has always responded to the shortage by paying heart surgeons $400 thousand bucks a year. Labor shortage means higher wages.

The heart surgeons in Oklahoma have, for years and years, spent tons of time and money to keep heart surgeons from out of state from moving to Oklahoma. That's why they have a high wage.

What the heck is wrong with a labor shortage? If the heart surgeons want a shortage of heart surgeons as a way to push up their own wages, why the heck are US citizens (be they black, white, or latino) with no skills not also entitled to a labor shortage to push their wages up?

Dee said...

more from Oklahoma

Arguments heat up over new immigration law

The state's new immigration law is scaring away Hispanic workers and making it difficult for roofing and road-building companies to complete jobs or bid for new ones, business owners and advocates said Thursday.

"We will be in the worst depression Oklahoma's ever seen if this bill stays in effect,” said Jack Gray, head of Standard Roofing Co. Inc. of Oklahoma City. "There are no American people who will work construction that I can find.”

Gray said his company offers good-paying jobs, but is unable to bid for future business because of the lack of workers.

Gray and others showed up Thursday at the state Capitol to support efforts by Sen. Harry Coates and Rep. Shane Jett to repeal some provisions of the state's immigration law, House Bill 1804. The measure easily passed the Legislature earlier this year and took effect Nov. 1.

Dee said...

Pat,
I don´t know any. I saw one article that said there may be 10. I know of no one at all that seriously wants to reconquista (RQ) any part of our USA to Mexico. That is just a silly, silly argument.

In the meantime, we all know there are hundreds of thousands of members of the KKK, Aryan Nation, militias, Nazis, Skinheads, etc.

The only thing I know of close, but no RQ, is possibly the inner city gangs. However, I think that is driven more by poverty and they are not looking to RQ anything. There are numerous and various gangs from many cultures.

I have said there is no RQ so many times, I do not need to say it again. Michele Malkin, Dobbs and American Patrol´s Spencer just made it up to cause all of these arguments and promote a race war.

patriot said...

You really disgust me with your dishonesty in here, dee. MECHA'S agenda is creating a whole new nation within our country called Aztlan and their chapters are on every campus in this nation. Did you see only 10 reconquistas in those video's I provided for you? Did you even bother to watch them?

I already told you over and over that reconquista isn't about making part of the U.S. part of Mexico. Can't you read???????????
You obviously have done no research on this matter at all, if

Answer my question, dee!!!!!!! Are these videos authentic or not? Did Dobbs etal pay some Hispanic actors to march and chant the things they did in the videos?

See, that is what I dislike about you, you are dishonest! I have already admitted that their are radical racists on the anti side but you haven't the decency to admit it about your side. You make lame claims that there are only 10 on your side? God help you, you are pathetic!

Dee said...

Well Pat, You continue to be rude and a name caller with a very illogical argument, but you are free to post here as long as you do not become too abusive.

Please study the issues before you respond and pay no attention to the extremist sites. That may help your argument.

patriot said...

It isn't rude to call a spade a spade. If you lie I will call you on it. So again, dee were the reconquistas in those videos actors or were they for real? I am still waiting for your answer. Don't mix apples with oranges either, dee. There is racism on both sides of the issue but only ONE reconquista agenda and it isn't on the side of the KKKers. They are just plain racists, period!

What illogical arguments have I presented? See what I mean dee, you accuse me again of paying attention to extremist's sites. I have already told you numerous times that most antis are able to think on their own and yet you repeat the same old crap over again. And when I call you on all of this you say I am the rude one.

Why do you tell me to study the issues? I have! Now you make assumptions another thing that you do constantly in here.

Why don't you just answer the question I asked about the videos, dee? Why don't you admit that there is a real Aztlan/reconquista movement in this country and it doesn't emcompass only 10 people either. Still waiting, dee.

patriot said...

Speaking of the illegal aliens that are leaving the state of Oklahoma:

Terrill, R-Moore, said figures compiled last year by a House study gathering
information on preparing HB 1804 indicated illegal immigrants contributed
about $21 million a year in tax collections - about $11 million in income
tax and about $10 million in sales tax.
"I would compare and contrast that with the direct cost of illegal
immigration that came out of that interim study that showed the direct cost
was in excess of $200 million," he said.
The cost of illegal immigrants is a drain on the state's public schools,
health care, prisons and welfare system, he said.
"That doesn't even count the cost to private individuals who get smashed
into by an uninsured illegal alien," Terrill said. "It's pretty clear that
when you compare the $200 million in direct costs versus the $21 million
that illegal aliens contribute that illegal immigration is a net financial
drain to the state of Oklahoma."

Anonymous said...

Patriot,

there are two economic arguments against unskilled immigration

THE FIRST argument is that the unskilled immigrants cost more in govt services than they pay in in taxes

THE SECOND argument is that they drive down wages of us born unskilled


you have provided some strong evidence for the first argument but not the second

patriot said...

anon, I wasn't really looking for anything. I just happened to stumble upon this information since the state of Oklahoma's exodus of illegals was being discussed. How about you coming up with the stats to prove the second argument? I know it's out there.

Dee said...

Terrill introduced and sponsored the bill. Why should we believe his hypothetical information.

Strayhorne and others proved that the 12M bring a positive net impact, particularly in Sales Revenue.

The only way to gauge actual performance is to conduct control studies. We can utilize these early strict enforcements as control studies.

As occurred in Riverside NJ, the towns that enact these strict laws go out of business, then they rescind the laws and hope business and revenues come back.

The impact of the strict laws in Oklahoma are already being felt just 5 weeks after the enactment of these laws. I believe this is because the Racial Profiling began early and not only did the illegal immigrants leave, so did other minorities.

As I have said from the beginning, we need these control studies to gauge the impacts.

Dee said...

You see, people like Terrill do not use facts. They use speculation. Read his statement: "I would compare and contrast that with the direct cost of illegal immigration that came out of that interim study that showed the direct cost
was in excess of $200 million," he said.

I am going to look for this supposed study. It should be interesting.

Dee said...

BTW Pat, some research. You used a Terrill quote from the article I posted.

Incidently, my searches are leading me to Tanton´s FAIR group conducting these studies. The ANTI´s godfather´s group conducting a study with estimates? Hmmmm.

No wonder the Oklahoma citizens are so upset. Reading their websites, they are angry. They did not even get a vote on this and now the minorities are being subjected to all of this racial profiling. Such a shame.

However, as the revenue and workers leave, this control study will provide evidence of the impact of these types of strictly enforced laws.

Liquidmicro said...

Strayhorne again, I know that you know how she stuffed half filled boxes and presented them to the court house to not only find that they were filled to less than 1/2 capacity and that she lost tens of thousands of so called votes do to fraud .

Granny Strayhorne and her misleading ways

On May 9, 2006, Strayhorn turned in 223,000 voter signatures to the office of Texas Secretary of State Roger Williams. Only 45,540 are required to place her on the November general election ballot. "I told you, Texas," Strayhorn said while standing in front of 101 boxes stuffed with signatures. "We have blown the barn doors off this petition drive." Media reports later confirmed that the boxes were substantially less than half full (for comparison, her opponent, Kinky Friedman put 169,000 signatures in 11 similar boxes). On June 22, 2006, Texas Secretary of State Roger Williams declared that only 108,512 signatures on her petition were valid, about 35,000 less than that of Friedman's count.

Liquidmicro said...

From Dee's own link of NJ:

Some residents who backed the ban last year were reluctant to discuss their stance now, though they uniformly blamed outsiders for misrepresenting their motives. By and large, they said the ordinance was a success because it drove out illegal immigrants, even if it hurt the town’s economy.

“It changed the face of Riverside a little bit,” said Charles Hilton, the former mayor who pushed for the ordinance. (He was voted out of office last fall but said it was not because he had supported the law.)

“The business district is fairly vacant now, but it’s not the legitimate businesses that are gone,” he said. “It’s all the ones that were supporting the illegal immigrants, or, as I like to call them, the criminal aliens.”
.......
Like those waves of earlier immigrants, the Brazilians and Latinos triggered conflicting reactions. Some shopkeepers loved the extra dollars spent on Scott and Pavilion Streets, the modest thoroughfares that anchor downtown. Yet some residents steered clear of stores where Portuguese and Spanish were plainly the language of choice. A few contractors benefited from the new pool of cheap labor. Others begrudged being undercut by rivals who hired undocumented workers.

On the town’s leafy side streets, some residents admired the pluck of newcomers who often worked six days a week, and a few even took up Capoeira, the Brazilian martial art. Yet many neighbors loathed the white vans with out-of-state plates and ladders on top parked in spots they had long considered their own. The Brazilian flags that flew at several houses rankled more than a few longtime residents.



Seems to me, it all depends on which side of the fence yo are on, as to whether or not the enforcement is good or bad.

Dee said...

My preliminary research has found the following:

Carol Helms - Director of Immigration Reform for Oklahoma Now (I.R.O.N.) Carol's organization was instrumental in the passage of HB 1804 "The Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007.

FAIR and the Minutemen Project assisted in forming IRON. VDARE, Outrageous Patriots and other radical hate groups have been intimately involved in the documentation and legal support for HB 1804. Its all on IRONs website.

Now we get to the root of the problem with this bill!!

No wonder the citizens are so upset, especially with all the racial profiling going on.

Dee said...

My Liquid, posting a link from concerned taxpayers about Strayhorne. Not only does he spread untruths about Strayhorne, but he according to his home page, he does not like Muslims in America, he laughs at boogerfests, and who says he doesn´t like anyone messing with his dogs or guns. Great Reference!

Dee said...

The truth comes out about Terrill:

By MICK HINTON World Capitol Bureau
12/7/2007
Last Modified: 12/7/2007 1:14 AM

Calling for repeal of the state's immigration bill, the senator says its author is a "mad scientist."

OKLAHOMA CITY -- Sen. Harry Coates on Thursday called fellow Republican Rep. Randy Terrill, author of Oklahoma's controversial immigration legislation, "a mad scientist and Oklahoma is his laboratory."

Coates said Terrill, who has recently proposed even stricter immigration legislation, is getting "wackier and wackier" and his rhetoric has racist overtones.

"When you say that mothers who have dark skin should not be able to receive prenatal care, I find that racist," Coates said.

Terrill has objected to the state's Medicaid agency approving a rule that would allow payments for prenatal care to mothers who are in the country illegally.

At a state Capitol news conference, Coates called for repeal of sections of House Bill 1804, whose primary author was Terrill, R-Moore. Coates said he has both economic and moral concerns about the bill, portions of which went into effect Nov. 1.

"What people don't seem to realize is that the chilling effect of this law has resulted in the loss of both documented and undocumented employees," Coates said. "These are good jobs and they pay good wages, but few American workers are willing to take them."

Jack Gray, whose Oklahoma City roofing company has been in business more than 100 years, said he hasn't lost any business, "but we will not be able to bid on any future business. There are not enough Americans who are willing to work construction."

Following a press conference at the state Capitol, Coates said Terrill's actions are "the result of not reining in a bad idea."

Dee said...

Those Oklahoma articles are so full of angry, hateful, fighting comments.

It is just horrible.

There is so much anger in that state.

I guess that is what Terrill wanted. A race war.

Going by the comments on those sites, it looks like he has what he wished for.

Deplorable and very, very sad!

Liquidmicro said...

Would it have been better if I linked to the same thing in wikipedia?? Try disputing the fact, not the messenger.


As for Coates, he has been linked to the Roofing and Construction Industry. OUTRAGE IN OKLAHOMA!!!

Liquidmicro said...

Undocumented customers disappear from businesses

Lets not leave out Arizona!!

Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University, said part of the reason for the lack of business is the economy is heading for a slowdown.
...
CarnicerĂ­a and PanaderĂ­a Mama Mia, a grocery store with Mexican products near Arizona Avenue and Pecos Road, is trying to counteract the customer loss by appealing to different clientele.

"We are changing the store over to more of an Anglo-American store, but we'll keep it (mostly) an ethnic store," said George Mihilli, the store's owner. He said he's lost 50 percent to 60 percent of his sales.
....
Many businesses are sticking out the uncertainty the hiring law has added to difficult times, said McLaren, the ASU economist.

"The uncertainty behind the employer sanctions law might make business investment a little more hesitant," McLaren said. "They want to wait and see how this law plays out. It's so vague what may happen."

Dee said...

Oh Liquid. An American Patrol link? Gosh didn´t we just talk about that nutcase Spencer and his hateful website? For Heaven´s sake. Please provide better materials.

I could have posted the Canary Diaries references about Terrill, the KKK and the White Supremists, but I didn´t.

ultima said...

"Of course the RNC would never do this and they will continue on with their merry ways, so I doubt they make any logical steps any time soon."

It sounds like you are advocating a complete redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor or some redistribution in which the balance between rich and poor is such as to maximize the stimulative effect on the economy without regard to any other factors. The question becomes, "How much would you be prepared to give up so that a less affluent family could have more disposable income?" The tax system as it stands is heavily weighted in favor of the poor through the graduated rates and what amounts to a giveaway or negative income tax.

Reich's comments are correct but that is not the whole story. The stimulative effects of tax cuts are well-known and generally effective. However, there is another consideration and that is the matter of fairness. If one person pays $2 in taxes and another pays nothing or substantially less than $2, why shouldn't the larger dollar reduction go to the former? After all, he is the one who paid the tax in the first place and if the objective is to reduce the tax rate for everyone, whoever paid the most under the existing rates would automatically get the larger dollar reduction. To do otherwise would be not a simple tax cut but another welfare program extending further whatever redistribution of wealth is already embedded in the tax rates and tax code. In that case, we should tell it like it is and say we are just redistributing wealth rather than reducing tax rates for everyone. In the economic realm, you cannot legislate the poor independence by legislating the wealthy out of it. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. Government cannot give to the people what it does not first take away from the people. What one man receives without working for, another man must work for without receiving.

Liquidmicro said...

Follow the links to the news articles, google it if you want, argue the facts if you can, quit shooting the messenger. The link, if you follow it, provides Coates business web site, Tulsa worlds news article.

ultima said...

"it would have a great impact on the current national debate on immigration.

But none on actual policy."

The latter statement does not necessarily follow from the former. Although we know party platforms and campaign promises are not always kept, a politician does tend to keep his ear to the ground and if there is a logical way for dealing with a problem, he may in fact adopt that strategy.

ultima said...

I believe anon is right but there is one missing element for those who remain in the U.S. because they are birthright citizens. One of the absurdities among the bankrupt ideologies and worldviews is the efforts of well-heeled elites and comfortable middle-class white teachers and bureaucrats to provide to immigrants desperate to become part of the United States every reason why they should hold themselves separate and not commit themselves fully to the new world they have discovered. Is this self-loathing deprecation so endemic in the West today a product of guilt over material abundance or of a genuine desire to reshape American society radically and by undemocratic means. In either case, the result of such bottled piety upon the immigrant have been disastrous.

ultima said...

What accounts for the erosion of the civic education so necessary to sustain a unified nation that has no common race or religion? The first reason for rejection of assimilation in our schools was ideological. We have not yet experienced all the consequences of the big bang of multi-culturalism, authoritarian utopianism, and cultural relativism--theisms that tell young people that facts, dates, people and hard data are either irrelevant or biased, or simply not facts at all, and that to question such a dogma could be "racist". We have experienced enough isms to know that all such ideology is antithetical to the notion of civic education, which historically has been national, realistic and in some way tragic rather than therapeutic. Lupita says she teaches her students that the U.S., where they live, is just one of 200 different countries and there is not particular reason to prefer the U.S. and its system of government over that in the other 199, that there was no particular reason why they ended up in this country rather than some other, and no reason to help increase the national self-esteem by a dedication and allegiance to their country.

So, what we need are teachers who are willing and able to return to the old assimilative civic model so that our schools turn out loyal citizens capable of moving into the middle class rather than languishing in some corner of society still romanticizing other countries, especially those their parents fled to escape.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Actually this is Robert Reich´s recommendation. While I think it is a good one, I don´t believe the RNC with their Big Business cronies will ever let it pass.

You talk about redistribution of wealth as if it is a bad thing. We all know that many of wealthy became wealthy at the expense of the poor. Think about off shore accounts, the exploitation of the illegal immigrants, tax fraud, white collar crime and on and on.

This is a moot point however since the RNC will never let it pass.

Dee said...

Ulty,
I was debating with a gentleman on another website and your statement was very similar to one he used. Sounds like you both attended the same pointy hat school.

Ulty:
Is this self-loathing deprecation so endemic in the West today a product of guilt over material abundance or of a genuine desire to reshape American society radically and by undemocratic means.


Non:
Wrong! America is NOT a thriving multicultural society. We have multicultural origins. We have multi-ethnic origins. However, we have a uniquely AMERICAN society. Or at least we did have until the guilty white liberals began peddling their self-deprecating, America-hating nonsense in the 1960s.

Until that time and perverted nonsense, we had roughly 200 years of assimilation of countless cultures, all proud of their heritage while even more proud to be Americans. The socialist-inspired moments of the sixties changed, no make that "destroyed" all that.

Dee said...

I know Liquid and Ulty, you are dying to know what website I have been playing on this weekend.

I am not telling.

Dee said...

Ultima,
Assimilate to what? Your view of the Mayberrian Loyal Citizens of the 1950´s?

This is the heart of the argument.

Your view and Non´s view, and many of the ANTIs view of this Ideal Loyal Citizen you want all minorities to assimilate to is some imaginary ideal you think you remember from the White Controlled 1950s, before the Civil Rights Movement.

Times have changed Ultima. Not even your own fit this model. It was never real to begin with because what peace and stability you thought you had then was off the backs of the people you stepped on.

I think Chris Rock had it right. If your side had its way and deported all 12M and limited the Immigration flow, your next target would be African Americans and other minorities you deem unworthy.

You may choose NOT to call this racism. What PC term do you prefer to use instead? The concepts of the founding fathers?


Ulty´s quote:
what we need are teachers who are willing and able to return to the old assimilative civic model so that our schools turn out loyal citizens capable of moving into the middle class rather than languishing in some corner of society still romanticizing other countries

Liquidmicro said...

Where you are failing, Dee, is you are lumping all Hispanics in with the 'Illegal Immigrants'. You do not differentiate between the two. Your side chooses to soften the rhetoric by changing the words to words that are less than what they are, and by so doing, you lump yourselves in with 'Illegals' to try to not dehumanize them. Just remember, this is by your sides own doing.

Liquidimcro said...

http://www.nahj.org/nahjnews/articles/2006/March/immigrationcoverage.shtml

National Association of Hispanic Journalists Urges News Media to Stop Using Dehumanizing Terms When Covering Immigration
Calls for stopping the use of �illegals� as a noun, curbing the phrase �illegal alien�


Its all in the wording, you need to differentiate yourself as an American Citizen from those that are here 'Illegally'.

patriot said...

*WHAT IF 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS VACATED AMERICA?*
By Frosty Wooldridge
October 29, 2007 NewsWithViews. com

Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a column titled,
"Mexican Visitor's Llament" -- 10/25/07.
She interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting Denver last
week. Hernandez said, "They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy
clothes...what happens to your country's economy if 20 million people go away?"

That's a good question - it deserves an answer:
Over 80 percent of Americans demand secured borders and illegal migration stopped. But what would happen if all 20 million or more vacated America? The answers may surprise you!

*In California, if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico, it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems, bankrupted hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner, safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as English became the dominate language again.

*In Colorado, 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and grand-kids - would move back "home," mostly to Mexico. That would save Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 BIL) annually in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration costs. It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.

*Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the terror that those
7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered death, accidents, rapes and
other crimes by illegals.

*Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent drop out/flunk out rate via
thousands of illegal alien students speaking 41 different languages. At least
200,000 vehicles would vanish from our gridlocked cities in Colorado. Denver's
four percent unemployment rate would vanish as our working poor would gain jobs
at a living wage.

*In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America,
the rule of law and English.

*In Chicago, Illinois, 2.1 million illegals would free up hospitals, schools, prisons
and highways for a safer, cleaner and more crime-free experience.

*If 20 million illegal aliens returned "home"------*
If 20 million illegal aliens returned "home," the U.S. economy would return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they wouldn't be working off the books.
That would result in an additional $401 billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for local state and city coffers. No more push '1' for Spanish or '2' for English. No more confusion in American schools that now must content with over 100 languages that degrade the educational system for American kids. Our overcrowded schools would lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of
billions in ESL and free breakfasts and lunches. We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country. In cities like L.A., 20,000 members of the "18th Street Gang" would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters! Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American deaths by illegal aliens!

*Drain on America's economy; taxpayers harmed, employers get rich* ---
Over $80 billion annually wouldn't return to their home countries by cash transfers.
Illegal migrants earned half that money untaxed, which further drains America's economy - which currently suffers an $8.7 trillion debt. At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country, costing us $109 billion per year per cycle.
At least 86 hospitals in California, Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being bankrupted out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act. Americans wouldn't suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant in our country-brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders. Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and grid locking our cities. It would also put the "progressives" on the horns of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our greenhouse gases. Over one million of Mexico's poorest citizens
now live inside and along our border from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California in what the New York Times called, "colonias" or new neighborhoods. Trouble is, those living areas resemble Bombay and Calcutta where grinding poverty, filth, diseases, drugs, crimes, no sanitation and worse. They live without sewage, clean water, streets, electricity, roads or any kind of sanitation.

The New York Times reported them to be America's new "Third World" inside our own country. Within 20 years, at their current growth rate, they expect 20 million residents of those colonias. (I've seen them personally in Texas and Arizona; it's sickening beyond anything you can imagine.) By enforcing our laws, we could repatriate them back to Mexico.

*High integrity, ethical invitation* ---
We invite 20 million aliens to go home, fix their own countries and/or make a better life in Mexico. We invite a million people into our country legally more than all other countries combined annually. We cannot and must not allow anarchy at our
borders, more anarchy within our borders and growing lawlessness at every level in our nation. It's time to stand up for our country, our culture, our civilization and our way of life.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I am telling the truth when I, as you say, "lumping all Hispanics in with the 'Illegal Immigrants´."

In my conversations with Non this weekend, I did appreciate his honesty. He had the courage to lay out the issues that we are really facing.

Every time you use words like "Mexifornia, 3rd World, Anchor Baby" YOU bring all American Hispanics into the discussion.

You all long for the Mayberrian society where you were the majority, you ruled this country and minorities drank from separate water fountains and sat in the back of the bus.

We all know what this argument is about and it does take courage to admit it.

The issue is, what do we do to come together as a society given the fact we all do have equal rights, we come from different cultures and we will not be Mayberrian.

Dee said...

Frosty is a madman just like Okie Terrill. His assumptions are just plain dumb. If 20M left, our entire economy would be devastated. We are starting to see the actual affects in Oklahoma, just as we saw them in NJ.

Additionally, what gives him the right to think citizen children will leave? They won´t.

He talks about less violence in CO. Colorado with so many home grown terrorists (Columbine, recent school and church shootings, etc.) Should we blame ole Frosty for these terrorist acts since the shooters are white Colorado citizens? Do you think this is as ludicrous as his indicting the entire 12M on the crimes of a very few?

His writing is so poor, I wonder if he finished school or if he got a free pass as so many on your side do.

The real drain on our society is the likes of Frosty and his ilk. He destroys our society with his hateful tirades.

Frosty should go back to being a snowman. Then I could steal his hat and he would just melt away!

patriot said...

How is using terms like Mexifornia, anchor babies, 3rd world, lumping Hispanic citizens in with illegal aliens, dee? Hispanic citizens are here legally and the illegals are not.

Where did anyone in this blog claim they wanted to see minorities drinking out of seperate drinking fountains or going to the back of the bus again? Where, dee? You do realize that you are calling those of us who post in your blog, racists by making that remark, don't you? Is that the way you treat your company?

Hot flash for you, whites are still the majority in this country by far, so don't talk like that is no longer true. You are just wishing that it were true.

Dee said...

Pat, Pat, Pat,
Anchor Babies as you call them are ALL Citizens.

People in California and Miami are primarily Hispanic CITIZENS! So when you call those names you are including Hispanic Citizens.

Whites are not the Majority in many states:

Majority-minority state is a term used to describe a U.S. state in which a majority of the state's population differs from the national majority population of non-Hispanic whites. These data are usually derived from self-identification questions on United States Census questionnaire and extrapolated data (see race (United States Census).

Four states are majority-minority states: Hawaii (which has long been such a state, and is the only state that has never had a white majority) and more recently, New Mexico, California, and Texas[1] have entered the category, with more ethnic minorities, and in August 2006 the United States Census reported that the percentage of non-Hispanic white residents had fallen below 60 percent in Maryland, Georgia and Nevada.[2] The District of Columbia has long had a majority African American population. All major United States territories (Puerto Rico, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Northern Marianas Islands, and American Samoa) are majority-minority areas.

ultima said...

"If 20M left, our entire economy would be devastated."

You have no proof of this. Neither have you made a case why this would necessarily be so. What is your rationale?

Keep in mind 20 million is less than 7% of our population. It seems like we were getting along just fine when our population was only 200 million rather than 300 million. Why would 280 million be significantly different from 300 million? Why wouldn't shortage of manual laborers raise wages and enable citizens on the lowest rung of the economic ladder to earn a living rather than depend on crime or government largess? Don't you agree this would be a good thing? I'm in favor of migrant farm workers who want to come here legally for six months at a time and then return to their homelands with pregnant women returning well before their third trimester. How many would that be?

ultima said...

I have addressed the question of children a number of times. We should stop granting birthright citizenship until the children reach their majority. Before that point parents who are deported must be required to take their minor children with them. As citizens, the children may return when they reach the age of 21 or sooner if they agree to a 4 year enlistment in the armed forces.
Problem solved. Mission accomplished.

ultima said...

"His writing is so poor, I wonder if he finished school or if he got a free pass as so many on your side do. "

His writing is lucid and easily understood even for his critics who may not have finished grade school. They just don't like his message. We all know what that is like, don't we? I am surprised you didn't trot out all the other terms in use when you disagree with another's point of view. History will also prove Frosty was correct in his assessment of our present situation. Too many ostriches and too little time!

patriot said...

I realize that dee, but myself and Ultima have tried to explain these terms to you over and over but you refuse to listen and take them at face value. You want to make them racist so you continue down this road endlessly.

Much to your obvious chagrin, whites are still the majority in most states and still the majority in this country overwhelmingly.

Now why did you make that hateful crack about us wanting to see minorities drinking out of seperate fountains and going to the back of the bus again? You are going to do your usual ignoring of my question, aren't you dee? Just like my question about the validity of those reconquista videos. So typical of you!

ultima said...

"Anchor Babies as you call them are ALL Citizens."

Okay, so they are citizen anchor babies--the emphasis should be on the anchor aspect rather than their citizenship. After all most of their parents were probably illegal which in mind mind taints their citizenship so "anchor babies" is a apt term regardless of citizenship

ultima said...

"The problems that exist in the world [and the U.S.] today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." -- Albert Einstein

ultima said...

Re: Frosty Woodridge

"Wooldridge opens the door for a debate of national importance, which few Americans realize at this time. His stark honesty, however grim in its reality, is the result of painstaking research. Every American needs to read his informative but shocking book."

"Wooldridge makes a clear and readable approach to the severe problems facing this nation as a result of illegal immigration and its impact. Readers of his work will be overwhelmed by Wooldrige's clear, intelligent and factual information on this critical issue."

Perhaps Dee should re-evaluate her caustic criticism of this loyal American struggling in the wilderness to bring attention to America's reckless immigration policies.

Dee said...

Ulty,
My PROOF is in the various municipalities that have enforced xenophobic, restrictionist laws. We can start with Riverside NJ, then we can go to Tulsa OK. The economies are devastated!

Quite honestly Ulty..I want to see your side enforce these xenophobic laws in municipality after municipality. Then, the obvious results will happen. These towns will go out of business, as has been proven. These are my case studies. You are proving it for me, time after time.

You cannot refute the FACTS!!

Dee said...

Birthright Citizenship:
Ulty, I hereby give my permission for you and all of yours to put forth a bill to change birthright citizenship. If you can get this bill passed some date in the future, so be it.

But in the meantime, leave our citizen children alone. You know as well as I do you cannot and will not rescind their citizenship now or any time in the future. So just leave them alone!! They are CITIZENS!!!

If you change the 14th ammendment any time in the future, please send me a memo. Then maybe, just maybe, we just might pay attention!!

Dee said...

Did Frosty write his own reviews? Looks like it.

I will debate him anytime, anyplace.

He cannot win!

I have Truth and Justice on my side!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Ulty,
My PROOF is in the various municipalities that have enforced xenophobic, restrictionist laws. We can start with Riverside NJ, then we can go to Tulsa OK. The economies are devastated!


Mord word play..."the economies are DEVASTATED!".... Oh, Please!!!! where is it stated anywhere that the economies are devastated?? All any article states is that businesses that -profit from the use or catering to- 'Illegal Immigrants' are the only businesses that are finding it harder to stay in business.

Again with NJ, as I have shown from your own article you posted, it all depends on which side of the fence you are on, and even there, the only businesses that are effected are the ones catering to 'Illegal Immigrants'.

With the stated exodus from OK and AZ, one would wonder then why the unemployment rate has begun to fall in these 2 states since the implementations of there Anti-Illegal Immigrant laws.

patriot said...

LOL, you are something else, dee. "Leave our citizen children alone"? What does that mean? Who is doing something with them? We don't need to create a new birthright citizenship bill, there is already one in congress for consideration. I have told you time and time again that if it does pass it won't be retroactive, so what are you screaming about?

So enforcing our immigration laws is xenophobic and restrictionist? Are you insane? What kind of an American would say that?

You have never had truth and justice on your side, dee. All you have is truth "spinning". Our laws say punish law breakers, that is what justice is in case you didn't know.

I was going to address your nonsense about cities/states being devastated by the exodus of illegal aliens but I already posted what is going on in Oklahoma and there is no devastation. Liquid also set you straight with some real facts on it.

You are a lost cause, dee.

patriot said...

Since we are on the subject of taxes, the economy, etc., I thought I would post this story just out. I am absolutely shocked over it. It is too long to post in it's entirety but worth reading.

"Blantant Medicare Fraud Costs Billions"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22184921/#storyContinued

Dee said...

Glad you posted the Medicare Fraud article. White Collar (citizen) Fraud may be the costliest of all!

Regarding the devastation and loss of business in cities in NJ and OK that enacted the strict immigration laws, time will only tell how devastating this will become.

I fear we will be immersed in a deep Recession - Depression soon.

Liquidmicro said...

Depression, Recession, if it happens, will not be because of the 'Illegal Immigrants'. Although they may have helped in bringing it about.

Credit is going to be the culprit, not just by the USA to other countries, but also by persons of the USA, to include the 'Illegals'.

patriot said...

The Medicare fraud probably had many participants, not just white collar citizens.

ultima said...

"But in the meantime, leave our citizen children alone."

That, of course, is the issue, illegal aliens all to willing to abandon their children in the U.S. when they are deported. I call that child abuse.

Anonymous said...

Can we get some views from Oklahoma on this board?

Are the wages for restaurant workers going up in Oklahoma because of the new law?

This is all about the wages. What's going on with wages?

ultima said...

"Would Americans and their children be willing to go back to the manual labor their grandparents performed?"

No one is asking them to. What we should be asking of them is to stay in school, stop romanticizing a country and culture their parents and grandparents abandoned, show their love of an loyalty to the U.S., get off the dole, etc. By allowing permanent residency or a pathway to citizenship to illegals or legal migrant workers this is what we let ourselves in for, a never ending stream of illiterates whose children become indolent welfare parasites rather than productive, educated workers. By cutting off the flow, allowing only 6 month migrant workers, we avoid this problem.

ultima said...

"THE SECOND argument is that they drive down wages of us born unskilled"

Without stats,one can still make a good argument that an unskilled labor shortage would place citizens on the lowest rung of the economic ladder in a stronger bargaining position and cause wages to rise enabling them to earn a living and support their families. This strictly a supply and demand or more appropriately a price elasticity of demand argument that says if the price of labor in inelastic (i.e. varies directly with demand)then a shortage of labor would drive up the price enabling unskilled citizens to get higher wages. I presume this also requires removal of the economic safety blanket so these workers will have not alternative to going to work. Few want to do unskilled work unless there is a good reason for doing so, like having something to eat,a place to sleep,etc. Some would prefer to panhandle than to do honest work.

ultima said...

"You talk about redistribution of wealth as if it is a bad thing."

In general that is the way I feel. No one likes to feel that he has to work to support not only his own family but the families of others as well, and that what he earns will be redistributed to those who fall in many categories like the indolent, the envious, those who live beyond their means, those who feel an entitlement to color TVs, cell phones, autos, etc., and those who abandon any attempt to get an education. There are many on that side of the ledger who I feel no sympathy for. There are many professed liberals in the affluent ranks who could simply send in their excess money to the government with or without a confiscatory tax rate. This is the real test for those who believe in the redistribution of wealth. They are free to redistribute their wealth at any time but they have no business telling others they should approve of governmental involvement in this process.

The question remains, "What tax rate or rate schedule do you think would be fair?" What rate are you willing to pay? How much more each year are you willing to turn over to the inefficient government pork barrelers and bureaucratic wasters? 30% 35% 40%? What do you think the combined local, state and federal tax rates add up to as they currently exist? Do you think that overall rate is too high, too low or just right?

What about AMT? Last year 4 million taxpayers were caught in the AMT trap. For 2007, it could be as high as 20 million. The original intent was to make sure the 155 taxpayers at the top who were paying no income tax would not get off scotfree. The AMT has now become an abomination affecting many Americans with just middle incomes. That's just another case where even an idiot knows what the right answer is: bring the AMT up to date by indexing it from day one in 1970 and then making the indexing permanent from this point forward. However, the congress is only considering another temporary fix. I recall a letter I got from my congressman once on a tax issue. He basically said, "No, we (the congress) need the money." I suppose the implication was that I didn't need it or that I could not spend it as efficiently as the government bureaucracy.

People would have less objection to taxes if they could rely on the government to spend the revenues wisely. The Medicare fiasco is a good example of why that will never happen. Let's turn Medicare fraud over to Blackwater!!!

ultima said...

"Terrill has objected to the state's Medicaid agency approving a rule that would allow payments for prenatal care to mothers who are in the country illegally."

Medicaid funds are badly needed for citizens. Any pregnant illegal who shows up should be deported immediately without recourse. Let her get her prenatal care in her country instead of draining the state's Medicaid coffers. It is incredible to me that anyone sees this in any other way. This is a true test of loyalty. Illegals will bankrupt our country.

Liquidmicro said...

Anon - I think its still to early to figure if there has been a wage hike in OK as of yet. One could begin by watching the classified section of a few newspapers in OK and determine if there are more positions opening up and in some cases if wages are rising, provided they offer a starting wage, or a wage based on experience. It probably will not be until mid to late next year before any news about it comes out. It is apparent, if you go to the state unemployment site, that unemployment has gone from 5% in July to 4.4% in October. Arizona has gone from 3.7% in July to 3.5% in October.

Line: http://www.bls.gov/

ultima said...

"Ulty, I hereby give my permission for you and all of yours to put forth a bill to change birthright citizenship. If you can get this bill passed some date in the future, so be it."

Whew! Just in time. I couldn't hold my breath much longer waiting for your permission.

Anchor babies! Anchor babies! Anchor babies! That's what they are whether they are citizens or not and you know it. It is the function they perform not their citizenship that is the subject of the anchor baby term.

ultima said...

"(Spencer rarely differentiated between Mexicans and Americans of Mexican descent)."

Perhaps the reasons for this are at least twofold: first, using the term Mexican is a convenience; second, that term fits the disloyal fellow travelers as well as it does the illegals. It is a pity that they know not what they do. This is not just an issue of freedom of speech. This is our country and its future we are talking about!

ultima said...

"Your language such as your use of the term “Anchor babies” tells us what your agenda is."

It is an accurate and wholly descriptive term. You have never disputed the fact that these babies do in fact serve as anchors for the extended family of illegals and other relatives. Just put it in your dictionary and stop trying to make something sinister out of it.

ultima said...

"Japanese internment camps were a mistake as these people were American citizens."

Some were citizens, some were not. Those who weren't were required by law to be interned during time of war. While not defending this episode in its entirety, one can also make a case that internment was necessary for their own protection. Anti-Japanese sentiment ran very high as the casualty figures from Guadalcanal,Saipan, Okinawa, etc. began to be announced. The Bataan Death March didn't help their cause any either.

In the internment camps for non-citizens, the Japanese actually drilled every day and sought to be returned to Japan to fight for their homeland.

Others were spies.

A good friend of mine's parents were interned at Camp Manzanar in CA. He felt the biggest tragedy was that the property and other rights of the internees were not protected as they should have been. Over all it is not fair to judge too harshly our leaders (Roosevelt) who had to make that decision in a different time. Second guessing long after the fact is never a worthwhile exercise.

ultima said...

"Actually, I heard Chris Rock say in one of his comedy shows, “I know they want us to get on board and be against illegal immigrants, but we ain´t gonna do it. Because I know as soon as they get rid of them, we´re next!”

He is after all only a comedian whose stock in trade is anything for a laugh. Talk about paranoia, if he really believes that, he and all others like him are suffering from delusions. There is no modern congress that would even consider such a thing. This is nonsense or BS of the highest order.

When we begin to rely on what comedians say as authoritative information, it suggests something about our mental processes.

ultima said...

"Based on what has been happening with Jena 6 and the vigilante horn shooting of what he percieved as two black men breaking into a house"

I'm not familiar with the latter case but I ask you how you would feel if six guy ganged up on your son and put him in the hospital? I'll bet you would be singing a different tune.

ultima said...

"The deplorable Detention RAPE centers are insulting. These crony owned prisons are a blight on our country, just as the Japanese Interment Camps were a blight. Shameful!

To quote one of Lupita's sayings....
One ALLEGED rape case does not make it a RAPE center."

Are you paying attention, Dee. Stop the hyperbole about the detention centers. Your comments lack credibility in this regard.

ultima said...

Spencer has a long history of association with the white nationalist magazine American Renaissance (often abbreviated as Amren). It describes itself as a "literate, undeceived journal of race, immigration, and the decline of civility", while its detractors accuse it of being racist and white supremacist. Jared Taylor, its publisher stated in May 2006: “I started American Renaissance 17 years ago in order to awaken whites to the crisis they face and to encourage them to unite in defending their legitimate interests as a race”

It does sound like La Raza, doesn't it? Or is it, only other races can have legitimate interests?

ultima said...

"One last thing I will reiterate. The VAST MAJORITY of immigrants (legal and illegal) who come here, come here seeking the American Dream. They do NOT seek to reclaim America to some other country. We all know this."

That is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is the result. We can see what that portent is in California where in just a matter of a few year 70% of the population will be Hispanic. The leaders will be the college graduates and members of MEChA and proponents of Aztlan. So who will control our destiny these college trained radicals or the vast majority of the other illegals and immigrants who will be bombarded with vicious rhetoric and propaganda. It will be a page out of the Joseph Goebels' play book.

ultima said...

""The United States and Mexico are two entirely different nations," Spencer declares. "The United States has as its founders people who came here for intellectual reasons, freedom of religion. Mexico was founded by a group of people who came to plunder, the conquistadors.... We have a clash of civilizations: the pilgrims versus the conquistadors, the civilization based on Newton's Principia Mathematica and the great philosophers of Europe versus the blood-and-sand character of Mexico, which is based on Aztec warriors and the conquistadors. We are asked to absorb millions of people from this culture; we are unable to assimilate them, so they are asking for their culture to be maintained here in ours. This is a direct threat to the Age of Reason, to the ascent of man, and will end in a massive conflict. It has to be stopped."


Spencer is a White Nationalist and this is why he promotes Reconquista FAKE theory and puts out those FAKE videos. He and Malkin and Dobbs are deplorable!"

This is another of your ad hominem attacks. I note that you took no issue with his statements on a factual basis. Is the reason for that because you can't? Perhaps you have never studied the age of reason and all of its philosophers and writers. Now that would truly be deplorable, given your knee jerk reaction to any positive statements of about Western culture.

Dee said...

Economic Devastation: Ulty´s Comment: “You have no proof. Didn´t have problems when we had 200M (1980s)”

In 1980, the Boomers were in their 30´s. They are now in their late 50´s and 60´s, all ready to retire. The 12 - 20M are doing the manual labor, hands on work. That is why we would be devastated. Most major economists agree, even Bernanke and Reich. You don´t have to believe any of us Ulty, but look at what is already happening in areas that imposed these strict laws. It is already happening.

ultima said...

"I just finished decorating my Christmas Tree and it is all white and silver."

What no Mex-Tex or MEChA ornaments?

Dee said...

Ulty,
As long as you call citizens "Anchor Babies" or when you use terms like Mexifornia or 3rd World Countries for Miami and California, you will continue to anger countless American-Hispanic citizens.
You refuse to get it!

Dee said...

Let me put this in layman´s terms for you Ulty.

Frosty Woolridge is a Racist Idiot!

ultima said...

"IF I AM A US CITIZEN WORKING AS A BURGER FLIPPER, WILL I START TO MAKE MUCH MUCH MORE MONEY AS A RESULT OF DEPORTATION AND AN END TO UNSKILLED IMMIGRATION"

Absolutely. Even Dee worries about unskilled labor shortages. In theory, this will reach an equilibrium between what the public is willing to pay for a hamburger and what the proprietor has to pay to get the help he needs to produce those hamburgers. Obviously, a $50 hamburger will have less appeal than a $10 hamburger or a $3 hamburger. The demand for hamburgers will therefore depend on the price and the price will determine what the help can be paid. A labor shortage has to drive up wages (and prices).

ultima said...

"The ANTI´s godfather´s group conducting a study with estimates? Hmmmm."

Ad hominem. Hmmmmm!

Dee said...

Anon,

Here is a blog from a regular Oklahoma citizen about what is happening there. He speaks for many.

Regarding wage or monetary impacts, early results indicate loss of Sales Taxes. That is already documented. Wages Impact? Too soon to tell. All the news accounts are telling us so far is local business is encountering labor shortages.

ultima said...

"Coates said Terrill's actions are "the result of not reining in a bad idea."

So why should we accept Coates point of view? He may be the wacky one. At least he is totally myopic about this problem. Perhaps he should be telling the people of Oklahoma about how much it costs for medical care for illegals and how that affects the state' ability to serve its own citizens in need of Medicaid. Those are some facts worth considering before Coates runs off at the mouth.

Dee said...

Actually, who would have thought modern congress would have considered mass deportation of 12M people or changing the 14th amendment.
Chris Rock is just thinking ahead and with all the insecurities your side is feeling about majority minority states, Chris Rock may just be right.

Ulty Quote: “There is no modern congress that would even consider such a thing.”

ultima said...

"Oh Liquid. An American Patrol link? Gosh didn´t we just talk about that nutcase Spencer and his hateful website? For Heaven´s sake. Please provide better materials.

I could have posted the Canary Diaries references about Terrill, the KKK and the White Supremists, but I didn´t."

nutcase, hateful -- For heaven's sake stop the negative hyperbole!

Post away it's your blogsite. Tell us about the Canary Diaries. What are they? Are they strictly opinions expressed by liberals?

Dee said...

I don´t know what la raza is. If you are referring to NCLR, the humanitarian organization, calling it "la raza" is the same thing as calling NAACP by the term "colored people."

ultima said...

"I feel very sorry for you. You are a victim of the extremist websites and you believe all of their lies."

You must be talking about the MEChAnistas, Aztlanistas.

ultima said...

"Frosty Woolridge is a Racist Idiot!"

I notice that you still haven't posted your educational and other credentials that permit you to critique his work in any sort of authoritative way. Where is your refutation of his facts? Is hyperbole your only argument?

If he is an idiot and you have no credentials for saying so, what does that make you?

Dee said...

Ulty,
While California is a majority minority state, there is no basis of fact for your statement, “who will control our destiny these college trained radicals or the vast majority of the other illegals and immigrants who will be bombarded with vicious rhetoric and propaganda.” It is all ridiculous speculation. NO PROOF! Ridiculous! Meant to instill fear in the masses! (as is typical from your side)

ultima said...

"If you are referring to NCLR, the humanitarian organization, calling it "la raza""

Yes, we are referring to the NCLR, a racist organization that supports another self-proclaimed racist organization, MEChA. Surely you are not taking issue with folks using a fully descriptive abbreviation for the NCLR. I don't mind using NCLR if that will make you feel better but a tiger does not change its stripes and the NCLR by any other name is still a racist organization. Admittedly some of its activities may be humanitarian (helping the illegals who have already broken the law)but others are very suspect and you must have the blinders on not to see that.

Anonymous said...

--"THE RACE"--that's what it says
not the hispanics or the Mexicans or the Cubans etc but "THE RACE"
how does "THE RACE" compare with saying colored people?

Dee said...

Ulty,
Your statement is pure speculation. There has been no evidence that this has occurred or will ever occur. Your side´s argument is bogus! Ex: Out of work Autoworkers in Michigan have not gone up to Traverse City to pick Cherries.

Ulty Quote:
Without stats,one can still make a good argument that an unskilled labor shortage would place citizens on the lowest rung of the economic ladder in a stronger bargaining position and cause wages to rise enabling them to earn a living and support their families.

Dee said...

Ultima,
You have not taken your sugar pills today, sourpuss! I like the nice, thoughtful Ultima better! Be nice! and I will post the link to Canary Diaries. They are very interesting.

ultima said...

"It is all ridiculous speculation. NO PROOF!"

Of course, nothing can be proved before it happens. However, the trends in CA can be reasonably extrapolated, especially those related to the demographics. You have already on numerous occasions boasted about how the demographics favor Mexicans (hyphenated Americans and illegals). Here are some quotes from some of the radicals that you have seen before but continue to discount:

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; "Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die. . Through love of having children, we are going to take over.

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico, "The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas; "We have an aging White America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it."

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, "Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of White America in California."

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, "We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens of this country." I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton, "California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General, "We are practicing 'La Reconquista' (reconquest) in California."

Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University; "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . .”

Professor Charles Truxillo, UNM, promises a new sovereign Hispanic nation called "Republica del Norte" encompassing the whole Southwest. "An inevitability," he calls it, and it will obtain its sovereignty "by any means necessary" as our "birthright".

The last is typical of what is being taught to Hispanic college students in ethnic studies courses. It's hard for me to deny the rather obvious portent of such teachings. Is it hard proof, no; should it be ignored, hardly!

ultima said...

"as is typical from your side)"

What proof do you have to the contrary? What does the preponderance of the evidence show?NO PROOF!!

ultima said...

"Regarding wage or monetary impacts, early results indicate loss of Sales Taxes. That is already documented. Wages Impact? Too soon to tell. All the news accounts are telling us so far is local business is encountering labor shortages."

No one has suggested that no short term economic dislocations would occur. The question is: how much is your country worth to you in the long run? That is the trade off. I am not sanguine that all Americans are aware of that. Dee certainly isn't.

ultima said...

"I will debate him anytime, anyplace.

He cannot win!

I have Truth and Justice on my side!"

I notice you have not taken issue with any of his truths. Justice requires the deportation of all illegals and the sanctioning of their fellow travelers, aiders and abetters.

Too bad a debate can't be arranged. Truth and justice, even by your parochial definitions, would not be enough to save you from ignominious defeat.

ultima said...

"I like the nice, thoughtful Ultima better! Be nice!"

You make it very hard with your hyperbole and ad hominem arguments. Calm down.

ultima said...

"As long as you call citizens "Anchor Babies" or when you use terms like Mexifornia or 3rd World Countries for Miami and California, you will continue to anger countless American-Hispanic citizens."

Those are just the facts, M'am. Get over it. Surely these terms are pretty tame compared to some of your hyperbole.

ultima said...

So to advance the arguments:
1. Tell us what marginal tax rate you are willing to accept as part of a broader redistribution of wealth.
2. Show us what evidence you have that Mexifornia is not a state of becoming.
3. Tell us how much of the NCLR's budget goes to support MEChA and other similar organizations.
4. What are the legal humanitarian activities of the NCLR as opposed to racist or political activities?
5. If the U.S. is headed for insolvency, tell us how the insertion of more poor people who soak up Medicaid and other resources will help.
6. Prove that MEChA and the NCLR do not promote separatism.

ultima said...

Post your preferred tax rate schedule for 2007.

ultima said...

What does your husband think of your belittling of Western culture?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Anon,

Here is a blog from a regular Oklahoma citizen about what is happening there. He speaks for many.


Sorry, Dee, your link is to a SC news article, not to a OK blog. Post a new link to the correct info.

patriot said...

Ultima...28

dee...0

patriot said...

Ultima...28

dee...0

Dee said...

Anon,

You are missing it.
No one calls anything ¨the race.¨ The name of the group is "NCLR" or "National Council of La Raza." It is a humanitarian organization. Go look at their mission.

Calling them la raza is the equivalent of calling the NAACP (national assoc of colored people ) by the term "colored people."

Please try to understand.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Are you sure you are you today? Your ridiculous quotes are off the charts.

Do you want me to post KKK, Stormfront or alleypack quotes? I could post them by the millions vs what you posted.

Ridiculous!!!

Dee said...

Your Angle Guitterez quotes are the MOST Ridiculous since they were made in 1969, during the Chicano Movement.

AMERICA.. Look how SILLY the ANTIs look! They have to go back to 1969 to get a quote they can reference to prove their so called Reconquista theories.

My only response is:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Dee said...

Ulty,
I have offered to debate you, but you have declined.

I made my offer to Liquid. He declined.

I make my offer to Frosty. If you can make it happen, let´s do it! I will call in. You can record.



Ulty´s Comment: Too bad a debate can't be arranged.

ultima said...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,522628,00.html

ultima said...

"I have offered to debate you, but you have declined."

Do you remember why?

patriot said...

"La Raza" tranlated to English is "the race".

The remarks that Ultima posted were real quotes from racist, reconquista Hispanics. We are quite aware that there are racists on the other side of the issue too. The difference is that we don't deny it and go into a hissy over it like you do.

Is that all you can come up with as an argument is the one made by Angel Gutierriez? What about the other ones that Ultima posted? Why did you not mention them, dee? They don't go back to 1969. What about those recent video's of reconquistas that I provided you? Are you going to deny the authenticity of them? Still waiting, dee.

I hope you will be honest and not lie, dee.

ultima said...

"No one calls anything ¨the race.¨ The name of the group is "NCLR" or "National Council of La Raza."

If there is a significant difference between the National Council of the Race, and the shortened version "La Raza", I fail to see it. You do use abbreviations once in a while, don't you? -- like Liquid, Ulty, Pat. Welcome to the club.

ultima said...

"I have offered to debate you, but you have declined."

I think we have been debating for many months now without much progress. Sometimes I thought you had moved just a little only to find in your next post you had retreated to your old position.

What kind of a forum do you expect to use with Frosty? Telephone? Blog? In person?

Dee said...

Ulty, In response to your question.

1. Tax Rate: I agree with my friend Robert Reich.
2. Mexifornia: California is a majority minority state. It is wealthy and thriving. If you don´t like it, move out.
3. NCLR: Write them a letter and ask for their accounting statements. Their records are public. With all the rhetoric on your side, you can bet they are legitimate to the penny. Your MMs CANNOT say the same. Ask your buddy Simcox!
4. NCLR Mission: NCLR is a non-profit, non-partisan organization that conducts applied research, policy analysis, and advocacy, providing a Latino perspective in five key areas – assets/investments, civil rights/immigration, education, employment and economic status, and health. In addition, it provides capacity-building assistance to its Affiliates (again, public record). Since YOU put them at the same level as the MMs, can THEY say the same? (I think NOT!)
5. More Poor People: Who advocates more poor people? No one has said this. I said 1. Secure Borders, 2. Employer Sanctions, 3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows
6. NCLR Mission: (see above) MECHA Mission: is a student organization that promotes higher education, culture, and history. We believe that political involvement and education is the avenue for change in our society.

ultima said...

You still haven't presented your credentials as a credible critic of Frosty's well-researched book. At least we can say he is on the side of the angels and his country.

Dee said...

Ultima,
I promote our USA. My husband is very supportive of my blog. He is a True American. Plus, he could beat you or Liquid in arm wrestling any day of the week!

ultima said...

"So to advance the arguments:
1. Tell us what marginal tax rate you are willing to accept as part of a broader redistribution of wealth.
2. Show us what evidence you have that Mexifornia is not a state of becoming.
3. Tell us how much of the NCLR's budget goes to support MEChA and other similar organizations.
4. What are the legal humanitarian activities of the NCLR as opposed to racist or political activities?
5. If the U.S. is headed for insolvency, tell us how the insertion of more poor people who soak up Medicaid and other resources will help.
6. Prove that MEChA and the NCLR do not promote separatism."

Better check with your hubby on the tax issues as well as the others.

Waiting!

ultima said...

"Plus, he could beat you or Liquid in arm wrestling any day of the week!"

Must be some macho hombre. How is he at brain wrestling? What does arm wrestling prove? Is he a gorilla in the mist?

Dee said...

Pat, in response to your scoring.

Pat IQ: 86

Dee IQ: 122

Dee said...

What does arm wrestling prove?

He is a man´s man! Smart and Good Lookin´!

Dee said...

And he is not threatened by an intelligent woman who speaks her mind, and often!

ultima said...

"I promote our USA." You could have fooled me. Your posts more often than not promote illegal aliens way ahead of our country. You are so concerned about the proper treatment of illegal aliens that you fail to connect with your fellow citizens on this issue so vital to the future of our country.

ultima said...

"1. Tax Rate: I agree with my friend Robert Reich. "

But he didn't use the term marginal tax rate. Answer the question. I partially accept Reich's rationale as I indicated in my post on that subject. But I want your answer to the questions, "What marginal tax rate are you personally willing to pay in support of Reich's thesis? What tax rate schedule do you propose?" You didn't.

patriot said...

2. Calif. is a majority latino state now due to illegal immigration. And we should leave our own state because of an invasion? What kind of an American would make a statement like that?

3. Ultima didn't suggest that the NCLR'S accounting system wasn't up to snuff. He just said they are big donators to the reconquista organization, MECHA.

5. You are suggesting that we give 12 million people anmnesty. Yes, that does mean more poor people in this country that get to stay and will encourage more to come.

6. That isn't the only thing that MECHA stands for. They put up a front of just helping latinos in education, etc., while their underlying mission is to reconquer parts of the southwest for Aztlan.

ultima said...

"He is a man´s man! Smart and Good Lookin´!"

Isn't that a non sequitur? He can beat you at arm wrestling therefore he is smart and good looking?

Of course, I generally couples should brag about each other. It's good for one's self-esteem.

ultima said...

"And he is not threatened by an intelligent woman who speaks her mind, and often!"

What good would it do him? No one knows better than those of us who post here. Best to just ignore uppity women who are instant experts on any subject you can name. If he is big and strong, no need to be threatened!

ultima said...

"Pat IQ: 86

Dee IQ: 122"

Insults yet again.

How about anon, liquid and ulty?

ultima said...

"Mexifornia: California is a majority minority state. It is wealthy and thriving. If you don´t like it, move out."

Yes, I guess some of the natives have heard that from your friends in Mexifornia. Mexifornia is close to bankruptcy. Mexifornia: A State of Becoming! Your comment above suggests that deep down you really agree with that assessment of the trend in Mexifornia.

Anonymous said...

National Council of "THE RACE"
What don't you understand? How pompous!

ultima said...

"go back to 1969 to get a quote they can reference to prove their so called Reconquista theories."

Truxillo's comment in much the same vein is of much more recent vintage.

Dee said...

Ulty,
You continue to ask for my credentials. Here they are. I would match them to Frosty´s any day of the week.

I am an American.
I am Hispanic.
I am a Woman.
I am a wife, mother and grandmother, sister, daughter and Friend!

I was a migrant worker for 12 years and proud daughter of migrant workers and family.

We are Catholic - Christian and I have taught my children and grandchildren to treat others as you want to be treated. I am very proud of them! I raised 2 fine sons who never did drugs, rarely drank alcohol, have good careers. Everyone who meets them and then meets me tells me what a fine job I did in raising my sons and I should be very proud. (I am.)

I finished high school and by the encouragement of my Father, found a job in business. (or as he said, an office job)

I was fortunate to work for a major corporation that supported its people by providing Business Training at their own school of business plus offered financial aid to complete my degree, after hours, at home, some of it on line.

I have worked in middle management for this major corporation for over 20 years. I was very fortunate to have some good bosses (and a few bad) who taught me some very good lessons in business and in life. I have mentored several people myself and I still stay in contact with them.

I started my own consulting business (on the side) in 1998.

I completed Speaker´s Bureau training in the 90´s.

I am a trained Facilitator, Project Manager, Program Manager, Quality Manager and am well versed in all Microsoft programs.

I can sing and am frequently complimented re: my voice.

I have written 1 book, a book of poetry and started my 2nd book.

I started my own blog in 2007 and am told I am a very popular blogger.

"I can bring home the bacon,
Fry it up in a pan.
And never let you forget you're a man. Because I'm a woman, W-O-M-A-N."

Let Frosty know I am waiting for his email. dee_perezscott@yahoo.com

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

2. Mexifornia: California is a majority minority state. It is wealthy and thriving. If you don´t like it, move out.


Wealthy and Thriving, you must be smoking some funny stuff. CA is in debt by over $10B that is BILLION DOLLARS.

Dee said...

Liquid, Ask Ahnold! He will also tell you California is thriving and successful!

By your standards, the US must be in a shxx hole? Huh?

Liquidmicro said...

Who cares what is said, or by whom, the fact is, that CA is in debt up to its eyeballs. The CA State Treasurer seems to agree with me, thats why I linked to the web site, just more facts that you seem to dismiss by stating: because Arnold says its thriving.

Dee said...

Anon,
The way you all reference la raza is totally out of context.
What don´t you understand?

Dee said...

Liquid,
For you:

"California's economy continues to be very sound," Schwarzenegger said. "We have created thousands of new jobs ... unemployment is as low as it has been in three decades, and growth in personal income remains very healthy."

Liquidmicro said...

I am talking about the STATE of CA being in debt, you are talking about the PEOPLE of CA. Learn the difference, or is this one of those comprehension things again??

Liquidmicro said...

If Arnold said the world is flat, would you believe him?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

2. Mexifornia: California is a majority minority state. It is wealthy and thriving. If you don´t like it, move out.


Were you not also talking about the STATE with the above statement made by you?? If yes, then why when confronted, you bring up the people of the state?? And you say you have an IQ of 122, I believe its closer to the 86 you assumed of Patriot. You know, average.

mirrorism said...

Liquid, the COUNTRY of the USA is in debt for 9 trillion dollars, TRILLION! Meaning, at least in the US, debt is not an indicator of financial prosperity. The factors Arnold mentioned are the indicators used to measure economic prosperity.

Currently, California accounts for something like 20% of the US economy, which is around 2 trillion dollars a year, more or less.

Dee said...

Thank you Mirror!

You are a scholar and a gentleman!

Welcome Back!! and Happy Holidays!

Dee said...

What is your IQ Liquid. I would guess 100+.

I would guess Ultima is about 140 (but with limited common sense).

I would guess Liquid is in the 120s as well.

patriot said...

dee, anyone who advocates the illegal invasion of their own country can't be too smart.

ultima said...

"Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University; "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . .”"

Perhaps this is why we may not hear as much about the reconquistas as we once did. They now operate sub rosa. Nevetheless, it is clear they haven't changed their stripes and they still welcome all the naive Hispanics who think they are a small unimportant minority of their race. They will only learn when it is too late. Then they will jump on the bandwagon to divide the spoils.

Actually, I haven't research the reconquistas for some time but MEChA has not changed it charter so we know where its thousands of members stand.

Liquidmicro said...

Yes, Mirror, the problem is more word play. Dee, stated about the State of California, not about the people/businesses or their economic prosperity, which is/was due to credit. The economic prosperity has begun and will continue to fade rapidly. The housing market and credit cards are going to devastate it, it has already begun.

And for your info Dee, yes my IQ is in the 120's.

ultima said...

Let's research other states and find out where Mexifornia stands debtwise in relation to them. Might be some facts there that even Dee and Arnold would have trouble ignoring.

patriot said...

dee, your "credentials" would fit the majority of Americans in this country. But equating the stories of your personal life to being qualified to debate with someone like Wooldbridge is laughable to say the least.

So you taught your kids to treat others like you would like to be treated? You mean like insulting my IQ? You mean like calling us racists?

Anonymous said...

A comparison of state debt ratios to selected medians:

2004 Debt/Capita CA $1545 Median $703
2004 debt CA $55.5B Median $2.7B
GO Bond Rating CA BBB New York AA-2004 Debt% of pers income CA 4.7%
Median 2.4%
2004 Debt Service as % of All Funds Receipts CA 2.3% Median (1996) 3.5%

To be fair, New Jersey, New York,Illnois and Florida are worse off on a per capita basis.

And New Jersey, New York and Illinois are worse off than CA on a % of personal income.

I note that these states have a fairly high presence of Hispanics . Is there any connection?

Arnie has no reason to be happy about this situation which I'm sure is now much worse than it was back in 2004.

New York undertook this study for the very reason that it was concerned about it ability to handle such a large debt of $48.2 B as compared to CA's $55.5B in 2004. Maybe Arnie should stop talking in such glowing terms and I'm sure he will as soon as his term is up, unless CA goes into bankruptcy before then. The bond rating is also very revealing, not much above junk bond rating.

Are you paying attenion DEE!

Dee said...

Anon,
You quickly hopped to do what Ulty said. You can now say "What a good boy am I." (pat on head)

BTW, I thought you were going to name yourself something other than Anon so we could differentiate you from other posters. (see nickname field in "Leave Comment" section.

I will be posting some data on CA shortly.

ultima said...

"You continue to ask for my credentials. Here they are."

Your credentials and accomplishments are quite impressive as are Wooldridge's. He, of course, was educated in journalism so should be a good writer unless he flunked those courses.

I also did some of my education on my employer's dime. For my bachelor's degree in Chemistry at USC my employer let me go full time during my final semester at full pay. Similarly my two Master's degrees were done at least in part on employers' time. I offered to make up the time but my boss said it wasn't necessary but I did it anyway.

I was the Valedictorian of my high school class, awarded Sophomore Honors in Chemical Engineering at the University of Wisconsin,top MBA student in my class at CU,elected to Beta Gamma Sigma (the Business College equivalent of Phi Beta Kappa), passed the CPA exam the first time around, was named a Distinguished Graduate at the Air Command and Staff College, and received the Robert L. Stearns Award for Distinguished to the University of Colorado. But then again I am over the hill so don't expect too much. I sang in the Methodist Church choir but I do not have a solo voice. I played the trombone in the University of Wisconsin Regimental Band. I played center field on my high school baseball team and point guard on the basketball team but then it was a small school. The principal said I scored higher on the Pepsi Cola Scholarship than any other student he had ever had. And yet I always felt there were so many others in my colleges classes that were so much brighter than I was and I guess they were.

I have two sons and a daughter none of whom have ever been on drugs and none of whom have ever smoked. The two boys have degrees in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering respectively. My daughter has an associate degree and is well-regarded by her employer. She is an avid mountain climber.

My wife is a beautiful, intelligent and talented artist, a co-founder of the local art guild and winner of several prizes for her art work.

Those are my credentials.

ultima said...

I guess I clicked on the wrong button. The post on debt ratios was mine.

Pat on head acknowledged.

Dee said...

I said California was wealthy and thriving. Ahnold agrees. People employed there would say the same.

Here is what wiki says:

State Rank Median household income (2006 dollars)
1. New Jersey 66,752
2. Maryland 63,082
3. Hawaii 61,005
4. Connecticut 60,551
5. New Hampshire 60,411
6. Alaska 57,071
7. Massachusetts 56,592
8. Minnesota 56,102
9. Utah 55,619
10. Virginia 55,368
11. California 54,385

ultima said...

"Assimilate to what? Your view of the Mayberrian Loyal Citizens of the 1950´s?"

Not a bad model when you think about it in an unbiased way. However, I understand those days are gone forever. Nevertheless, the general idea of civics and assimilation is the only thing that will help us to integrate 2nd generation unemployed Mexicans or Mexican Americans into the productive fabric of our country. Seem like a worthwhile objective to me in spite of your penchant to poke fun at the good old days.

Dee said...

Gosh Ulty, I am proud to have you on my blog. You have some wonderful accomplishments. You are well rounded in education, family sports and culture. I always felt my greatest accomplishments were my children. It sounds like you and your wonderul wife did a great with your children too. I bet your IQ is in the 140s.

PS: btw, I forgot to mention, one of the reasons my company was willing to invest in my education throughout my career was because of my assessment results. At the time, they put all new managers through assessment. They said my scores were the highest of anyone ever tested in the state.

Liquidmicro said...

The median ranking of average income does nothing in regards to proving any point you are trying to make about CA. You are failing to account for cost of living expenses. You also fail in that the median income is that of the amount which divides the income distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that amount, and half having income below that amount. Keep in mind there are more on the bottom rung of the ladder then there are on top. Those that are on the top live in only a few cities of the state.

If you were to take the average of the household incomes of CA, you would find a much lower number.

Liquidmicro said...

People employed here would say CA is thriving?? Again, you don't live here, I do, and it is not thriving throughout CA. There are pockets that are doing OK, but everywhere else here, nobody is thriving. The housing market here has really been over inflated, now the bubble has burst, the market has dropped severely, construction is all but halted on homes. Business centers and shopping centers are being built, yet are left vacant for years. The shopping malls are all down 40 - 60 percent in sales from the previous year. Yet, because you see the median household income, you assume we are thriving. Arnold has done nothing to help the state from going deeper into debt, in fact he has actually placed us deeper into debt with the bonds he keeps using, projections are for $68B in debt over the next 10 years.

Liquidmicro said...

Another misunderstanding is the idea that if the economy is growing (GDP growth) then household incomes are also growing. In reality economic growth doesn't necessarily equate to growth in median household income. For example the US economy grew 8% over the 2000-2006 period but median household income actually fell 2%.

From your Wiki link of median household income.

mirrorism said...

California's economy is a reflection of the US's. So, if California's is going down the tube, then so to is the US's.

The housing market is, apparently, down all across the country, credit card debt is high across the country-illegals are given credit?-, house hold income is down across the country, etc. etc.

I don't see how people with gargantuan IQ's could reasonably blame those problems on the illegal population of the US- a meager 4% of the population. I imagine that it's much easier to blame those that are suffering than blaming ourselves or, better still, the people who are benefiting from the current economy.

Liquidmicro said...

Who is blaming it on the 'Illegals'?? They are part of the problem, they have been given credit, B of A and numerous other banks have given them loans to purchase homes and auto's all from the matricular consular card.

There are some that are benefiting from this economy, I am do to having a large some of investment in the Euro. There are even more that are failing due to this eceonomy - all due to credit and the ignorance of people spending more than they can make, the ignorance of people taking out loans that adjust or pay interest only, they are the ones to blame, and there are 'Illegals' involved in this as well.

When CA does hick-up, the rest of the US does follow suit, usually within a year or two.

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