Thursday, December 13, 2007

Minutemen Leaders Turning on their Followers!

Unbelievable events are occuring in from the Minutemen Ranks. The "Heinous MM Leaders," as I´ve often reported, have their own agenda and it is called Personal Power and Media Attention. Now their followers are seeing this for themselves.


First, MM Founder Gilchrist endorses Mike Huckabee, much to the chagrin of their largest ANTI group Leaders. (e.g. Alipac´s William and American Patrol´s Spencer).


Now, the Arizona Daily Star is reporting Simcox is saying he has been misunderstood and we do need to institute some Comprehensive Immigration Reform Policies.

"I had pretty much written him off," Rios said of Simcox. Rios and Flores were willing to concede the border needs to be secured for a guest-worker plan to work. And earlier in the day, Simcox, a controversial figure who is credited and criticized for being the first to organize a citizen border patrol, made what some found to be stunning statements: He supports public education for the children of illegal immigrants and sees the fix as not just an issue of enforcement, but of reforming Mexico's economy and basing the number of U.S. visas on the nation's labor supply. "People have never really listened to the entire scope of what our organization stands for," Simcox said. "

The day, filled with panel discussions and retorts from county sheriffs and lawmakers from around the state, was not devoid of disagreement. Some questioned the accuracy of academic studies portraying immigrants as a net gain for the economy — not a drain. Others wondered whether those who want to stem the flow of illegal immigrants are really standing behind the rule of law — or are just scared about the "browning of America," as Rios put it. While this group of about 70 was able to find consensus, there was an acknowledgment of political reality: Congress has failed to institute federal immigration reform. The location — downtown Phoenix — was fitting. Less than six miles away the immigration debate is unfolding in a vivid way at M.D. Pruitt's Home Furnishings. The Phoenix store has attracted national attention because of a standoff among immigration activists, sheriff's deputies and the store owner, who has hired off-duty deputies to catch day-laborers.

"That's not the way to go about it," Simcox said, admitting he'll take flak from border activists for standing against the action. "My followers end up criticizing me because I'm too soft,"
he said at one point in the day.

Arizona Daily Star Publisher and Editor John Humenik stressed immigration is a local issue, pointing to the impact it has on the Tucson economy and culture. "I think our role here in Arizona and as communicators with the newspaper is to help the rest of the country understand what is a very local issue," Humenik said. "It can't be done in Washington. It has to be done in groups like this. It has to be done in communities like Tucson and Phoenix."

Some of the recommendations out of the forum included asking legislators to form a bipartisan immigration caucus, and one break-out group suggested "eliminating the word amnesty from the dictionary." But bridging the gap from a policy meeting controlled by moderators to the partisan halls of government — either Congress or the state Legislature — is a challenge. "It's very concerning to me — the rhetoric," said State Rep. Kyrsten Sinema, a Phoenix Democrat. "Our discussion around the issue of immigration has never been able to be focused on real pragmatic and practical solutions. We really need to have a well-rounded set of options on the table."



My Gosh! Ultima, Liquid, and all ANTIs, what´s next? Is your side really softening towards Comprehensive Immigration Reform? Can we come together as a Nation? Will this issue be resolved in time for the 2008 Elections?

99 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

ANTI's side softening, NO. You have just had a biased opinion of Simcox and others, to you they were the DEVIL!! (Momma from the movie Waterboy voice). Simcox and Gichrest views are there views, the groups they started the MMP and the MCDC actually stated what they were about, many have shown you what there mission statements were, you have insisted they were the DEVIL!!(above). Everyone has there own views, we all agree with some of each others views, some views we don't.

Now, quit making everybody 'Guilty by Association' and placed on to a side, argue the difference of view points and a lot of problems may just solve themselves.

Dee said...

What I find interesting is you all have used your numbers in unison, in lock step, until now. Now, as the agendas of various leaders are exposed, all of a sudden its "they don´t speak for me." Hmmmm. Interesting.

I am sorry Liquid, but "my Bobby won't be playin no foosball with yo gargantuans"

patriot said...

liquid, dee always says hateful things like putting the MM organization, their leaders and all anti's in the same class as the devil. She resorts to nasty words like "heinous" in describing the leaders of these organizations. They may have their faults and made some mistakes but there is no need to use such a hateful word as "heonous" to describe them. Simcox's MCDC organization has helped save those crossing the desert from dying of thirst and they have never harmed an illegal alien but dee refuses to acknowldedge the good things they have done. That is how the pro's operate. Insults instead of valid arguments. It is so childish and we will never resolve this issue in that manner. The pro's want us to compromise and yet like dee they stoop to calling us inflamatory remarks all the time. That is why they will never get us to cooperate in any way, not with insults anyway. They are too stupid to realize that.

Dee said...

OMG Pat, You actually typed this? You believe Simcox and the MMs "save those crossing the desert from dying of thirst "

Give me a break! They shot out the water bottles.

It is the Border Angels and Enrique Morones that has been providing them Humanitarian support. Don´t try to rewrite History. Now you are sounding like Boooooooooosh!

Liquidmicro said...

Nothing from any leader has been exposed. Simcox was a school teacher prior to the MCDC. If you would read anything instead of listening to your OPEN BORDER Propoganda, you would have known that Simcox was only about protecting the border. Most of his viewpoints were never listened to by the OPEN BORDER nuts, and he was labeled a racist. Now he has other problems, the fence and the MONEY!!

You keep referring to ALIPAC like they are the only thing that anybody should listen to. They have some views that a lot of people agree with, I agree with some of them, however just because you don't, doesn't make them the DEBIL!! (Thats how Momma says it, right.)

You need to quit being so biased and open your mind to listening to what is being stated and said by those that are on your blog, instead of lumping all with different opinions than yours and making us 'Guilty by Association'. Quit the word play, state it as it is, you might find less rhetoric and more HONEST debate with an outcome all can agree to. There are many good steps put forward by Ultima, Patriot, Anon, even you Dee, but you can't keep going back to the propaganda and accusing all with the 'Guilty by Association'.

Keep in mind, Momma realized that Bobby was right and that she was wrong, he ended up playing fooseball wit tem gargantuans!!

Liquidmicro said...

Minuteman's goal: To shame feds into action

USA Today 5/25/2006

....
Desert retreat

With no more family or job, Simcox says, he decided in late 2001 to clear his head in Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument on the southern Arizona border. Camping miles from civilization, he watched illegal immigrants and drug smugglers streaming north from Mexico. "At that moment, it clicked," Simcox recalls. "The borders were wide open. Terrorists could come through."

Simcox says he signed up for the Border Patrol but again was rejected because of his age.

During a stay in the Old West town of Tombstone, Simcox worked briefly as a cowpoke in mock gunfights — "I always got killed," he notes, wryly. Then he saw an ad in the local newspaper, the Tombstone Tumbleweed, seeking an assistant editor. Simcox says he was hired on the spot.

In 2002, Simcox cashed his retirement fund and bought the paper for $60,000, transforming it into a chronicle of illegal immigration.

Three years later, he and California activist Jim Gilchrist launched the Minuteman Project, stringing sentries along border smuggling trails and drawing worldwide attention.

But the notoriety was tempered by criticism of his motives and credibility.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, a liberal organization that monitors hate groups, commissioned a report that depicted Simcox as a " relentless self-aggrandizer who comes across with the smug egotism and fiery conviction of a former nobody."

Simcox says he feels empathy for immigrants and worries that his work causes them pain.

"If I were in another country and right across the border was a land of milk and honey, I'd be doing it, too," he says. "Don't blame the victims."

Which brings Simcox back to the true culprit he sees in the immigration impasse, as explained in manifestoes on his Minuteman website: "The existing border crisis is a dereliction of duty by those entrusted with American security and sovereignty. ... We demand that President Bush (and) members of Congress maintain an orderly queue of entry into our country."

This is old news. All you have to do is read and listen and follow along, what you have blogged about is almost as old as you. ;-}

patriot said...

Were you there, dee? Did you see any members of the MCDC or Simcox shoot out any water bottles?

I happen to be privy to the fact that many of the MCDC members have helped illegal aliens in the way of providing them with water and other life saving measures when spotted and were in dire straits from crossing the desert. Yes, they did notify the BP afterwards and they were picked up but that doesn't nullify the help they received from MCDC members prior to that.

You are just on a hate vendetta against them and refuse to believe anything positive about them.

I know all about the Border Angels, so what? Re-writing history? I am talking about the present, not the past.

By the way, it's way past Dec. 6th since Rund went to court. Was it determined that he was a MM? I just know you have been keeping up on this since you were so quick to try to drag the MM organization thru the mud with that, right?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

OMG Pat, You actually typed this? You believe Simcox and the MMs "save those crossing the desert from dying of thirst "

Give me a break! They shot out the water bottles.

You see, Dee, here is your Propoganda again, do some research, understand what the Minute men were and are about instead of listening to the likes of the SPLC and the OPEN BORDER nut cases.

Yes, the minutemen have handed out water bottles to the 'Illegals' that were there, they also have called for medical care for them when it was needed, they actually have saved some lives.

OPEN YOUR MIND, and quit the biasness and propagandistic rhetoric.

Keep it up Pat, maybe one day Dee will clear her head of the propaganda and rhetoric of the OPEN BORDER NUTS, and we can actually have an understanding of views with some actual thought process to come to an answer.

patriot said...

liquid, the hypocricy of dee is that she listens to the same hate groups on her side of the issue as she accuses us of doing on our side. I don't listen to anybody, I do my own research and use common sense and in many cases first hand experience is involved.

pjgoober said...

All of the prominent supporters of earned legalization and a guest worker program acknowledged that the border needed to be secured. The promise (whether true or not) of border security was in fact included in each comprehensive reform attempt.

Thus it is possible to be a comprehensive reform supporter and a minuteman at the same time (though I admit that in the rank and file there are probably few of these).

Dee said...

OMG, Liquid, You too are trying to rewrite history.

I am NOT quoting from any (as you say)OBPropoganda. Everything I am posting on these 2 threads is from alipac and american patriot. Nothing PRO about these two.

You are spinning so fast you are getting dizzy my friend!

pjgoober said...

Dee, sorry if I am hijacking the thread, but I have a question for you. If the US expanded legal immigration and granted earned legalization for the illegal immigrants, would you then be OK with deporting new illegal immigrants that show up afterwards, even if they have US born children and roots put down? I have never heard CR supporters say something like: "Lets commence with comp. reform, but afterwards new illegal immigrants need to be swiftly deported. No more excuses after that" Things like that would have assuaged some of the fears of us ANTI's. Right now we have groups like the ACLU always instigating or aiding law-suits to block enforcement of work-place laws and deportations. Many left-leaning judges rule in the ACLU's (and other groups) favor. I fear that after comp. reform, they won't stop doing this. Will any PRO's speak out against this if this comes to pass? I submit that this, and not amnesty per se, is the main night-mare of most ANTI's.

pjgoober said...

Here is Mickey Kaus (relevant to the question I just posed):
"A federal judge has blocked the government from sending out letters to employers whose workers whose Social Security numbers don't match their names. ... Some of the same employer groups (e.g. Chamber of Commerce) who backed Bush's 'amnesty + enforcement' immigration compromise are among those suing to block the 'enforcement' part. Even if they didn't, the ACLU would do the job for them. The yahoos were right to demand that any enforcement measures actually survive this interest-group litigation assault before any legalization/amnesty even gets considered."
http://www.slate.com/id/2175509/

Liquidmicro said...

If I am spinning anything, Dee, please show it. You need to open your mind and quit the rhetoric, if you truly wish to solve the problems your accusations of spinning are figments within your narrow mind.

Liquidmicro said...

Comprehension is the key, Dee, you have failed to comprehend what was/is being said/stated. Please try harder.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You say you do not defend Gilchrist or Simcox, but you have two posts providing their rallying cheer. Hmmm. Very Odd.

Regarding your mentions of age, as I have stated quite often, I am a proud grandmother and my best life´s accomplishments is raising two fine sons and now having 2 fine grandsons!

Plus I do like Adam Sandler movies and he pays many tribute to his momma. Anyone who loves their Mother cannot be all bad, even you Liquid!

Dee said...

Pat,
As a matter of fact, yes. I have read many reports about the shooting of water bottles. Plus there are several videos about the shooting of illegal immigrants. Whether staged or reel, it makes you wonder why the MMs post them.

patriot said...

pjgoober, you won't find many pro-illegals that would go along with your program of slamming the door shut to prevent anymore from coming in and if they managed to they would still be screaming for legalization for those too. Dee and those like her might say that just to placate us but don't believe it. They won't be happy until the U.S. has become completely Hispanicized.

Dee said...

Liquid, You and Pat are so funny. You are just like the Prez, trying to rewrite history.

You claim the MMs were Border Angels handing out food and water to the illegal immigrants. LOL
What a bunch of bull. The increased number of crosses were due to the doings of the MMs.

I don´t feel like getting the heinous videos of the MMs and their shooting practice, but they are all over the web.

Get over it.
You AIN´T Gonna WIN this one!
So don´t get me started!

Dee said...

Thank you PJ!

A voice of reason at last!

pjgoober said...
All of the prominent supporters of earned legalization and a guest worker program acknowledged that the border needed to be secured. The promise (whether true or not) of border security was in fact included in each comprehensive reform attempt.

Thus it is possible to be a comprehensive reform supporter and a minuteman at the same time (though I admit that in the rank and file there are probably few of these).

Dee said...

PJ, In answer to your question, YES. I have said this on many occasions. In fact, most CIR bills have said this.

The reason the ACLU becomes involved is because of the abuse. They can only go to court and file a case if a citizen´s civil rights have been abuses. Look at the Oklahoma petitions. Any submissions that did not impact a citizen´s civil rights abuse were thrown out. In most cases, the filings proceed because a citizen or legal alien´s rights were negatively impacted or racial profiled.

As I have said countless times, CIR includes:
1. Protect & Secure our Borders
2. Sanction Employers
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows


PJs Question:
If the US expanded legal immigration and granted earned legalization for the illegal immigrants, would you then be OK with deporting new illegal immigrants that show up afterwards, even if they have US born children and roots put down?

Anonymous said...

Dee,

many of the 12 million use more in government services than they pay in taxes.

Do the math. many undocumented have jobs that don't give health insurance. They use the emergency room.

If you add up all the health care costs and the school costs, a low earning undocumented family can cost the taxpayers $30,000 a year.

Dee, you have advocated letting the undocumented that are employed stay in the USA. But what about the ones that earn little money and cost the taxpayers a ton of money?

As part of the earned legalization you ask for, will you personally pay for the drain on taxpayers?

You are the one that want these folks in the USA - we don't. why do we have to pay for them?

Dee said...

Anon,
As I´ve said many times, many economists have said the 12M bring a positive net effect and Bernanke has said they have helped us to avoid a Recession-Depression.

It is only your bogus ANTI stats that says otherwise.

The CIR bill calls for
1. Secure Borders
2. Enhanced Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadow

Liquidmicro said...

I'm not defending anybody, what I am doing is trying to get you to quit being biased in your OPEN BORDERS Propaganda, so far you have failed miserably. Yes there are videos showing MM's shooting at 'Illegal Immigrants', they have also been shown to be fake. There are also many videos showing the MM's giving the 'Illegals' water as they get approached, and some have needed medical attention for which the MM's have called for medical care. Its all over the web, look for it.

Please show a report of anything that says the MM's shot at water bottles, it might help to make a case. But where you fail still is accepting that the MM's can and do hand out water bottles to those that need it when crossing. OPEN YOUR MIND, not your BORDER PROPAGANDA.

Minutemen aid in arrest of 21 illegals

patriot said...

dee, shooting practice proves what?
It is dangerous on our border ala the drug and people smugglers who will do anything to get their booty into the U.S. Gun pratice for defense makes sense. If you can show me one case where a killing occured with a gun by a MM, I'll eat crow, but you can't. Why are you so damn obsessed with the MM?...get over it! Show as much obsession over the Azlantizas, Brown Berets and Mexica Movement, etc. and we won't have to call you a hypocrite.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Since you ask, here is a minuteman in which the MMs admit their heinous deeds. Tsk Tsk

There are millions out there. I am not playing this game with you. It is horrible and i dont like looking at them!

Dee said...

MM Violence

MM Shootings

patriot said...

The audio is very hard to hear and follow and why would a MM post a video on the net to incriminate themselves if an actual illegal shooting did occur? At one point the woman said a gun went off but everything was ok. I think you are trying to stretch the truth here, dee.

Millions of them out there? Now I know you are streching the truth, dee.

Wish I had a video of the Hispanics who beat up a white woman in Maywood and vanalized a bunch of cars. I won't stretch the truth like you though dee and say their are "millions" of incidents of violent activity by the pro side.

Dee said...

That was Christie, former Minutemom and ex girlfriend of Schwilk.

She got fed up with all of their illegal, horrendous activities and posted these videos on the web.

Liquidmicro said...

These videos show nothing more than Schwilk pushing Morones. The rest are cut and paste video with music over the top.

You made a statement that the MM's shot the water bottles, please post a link to it.

Please show a link to where a MM has been charged with the crime of shooting an 'Illegal Immigrant'. Until then these videos show nothing more than hearsay and make many assumptions for which there is no proof of any of it.

The gunshots that were supposedly heard, nobody knows from where they came, yet the MM's are blamed for it. Come up with some new material, some damaging evidence, some credit for your ignorance and assumptions. Post a link to something with proof, like the link I posted to showing that the MM's did in fact give out water and medical attention to 'Illegal Immigrants' that needed it.

We all will be waiting!!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,
Since you ask, here is a minuteman in which the MMs admit their heinous deeds. Tsk Tsk

There are millions out there. I am not playing this game with you. It is horrible and i dont like looking at them!

December 13, 2007 8:19 PM

MM's admit their heinous deeds??? Sounds more like 3 persons talking showing video clips of others doing nothing. Why doesn't it show the faces of the 3 people talking, that way they can be recognized?? There was no heinous deed other than what they say was a gun going off and their assumptions. If this has really happened , why then has Christie not gotten a lawyer or an organization involved to go after the so called 'shooter', since there seems to be witnesses?? Why is there no credible, undenying, evidence to prove any of this??

If I were a Lawyer or a Judge, this supposed evidence you present would be laughed at, court DISMISSED!!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid, You and Pat are so funny. You are just like the Prez, trying to rewrite history.

You claim the MMs were Border Angels handing out food and water to the illegal immigrants. LOL
What a bunch of bull. The increased number of crosses were due to the doings of the MMs.

I don´t feel like getting the heinous videos of the MMs and their shooting practice, but they are all over the web.

Get over it.
You AIN´T Gonna WIN this one!
So don´t get me started!


Nobody is re-writing history, you just fail to see the actuality of the MM's doing good. You are so deep in the OPEN BORDERS PROPAGANDA that you can't see past the nose on your face. Morones and the Border Angels provide food and water at stations in the desert, they post a flag, usually red, so that the travelers can spot it and be re-nourished. Nobody on either side denies this. Yet you deny that the MM's have/do give(n) out water to those that need/ask for it. You also deny that they have given/called for medical services for those that need/ask for it.

The increased number of deaths along the border are from many things, mostly accountable for the idiocy of the 'Illegals' themselves for attempting to cross a desert. Increased border patrol has also made it harder for them to cross. The weather patterns have made it harder. And on and on and on.

Why is always about winning for you?? I think yo have a lack of attention, or maybe an ego problem that blinds you so. You make BS statements, yet when confronted on them you can't provide any credible info. Please try to comprehend what is going on, post credible info. I still think your IQ is what you claimed that of Pat, 86.

Dee said...

Minutemen Violence

mm target practic

MM Shooters
Below, Jim Chase of the California Minutemen admits publicly that it was "rogue" Minutemen who shot two Mexican migrants at the border this past weekend. "The rogue theory is absolutely true," he said.


MM Violence
Five members of a self-styled Alabama militia were denied bond Tuesday after a federal agent testified they planned a machine-gun attack on Mexicans. A sixth man accused of having weapons and explosives components in his home was approved for release.



MM and Teenage Shooters

Liquidmicro said...

Target practice in the first video, more like a shotgun as stated, good for maybe 20 - 30 yards. Besides where was the shot?? The air??

The second is more assumptions that it was 'ROGUE' MM's. It could just as easily have been drug runners/cartel. Still no documented proof of anything. The story is over 2 years old, yet nothing about it other than what was posted. Must be more conspiracy theory. Still no charges of anything.

"Jim Chase, the Oceanside resident who organized the Campo border-watch event, said those who have been patrolling with him have "not discharged one round yet, not even in practice." He did, however, say he has run across several people who are doing their own patrols.

"The rogue theory is absolutely true," he said. "

Where does it state it was a Rogue MM?? He did, however, say he has run across several people who are doing their own patrols. "People" is the key word here, not MM's.

"Sheriff's deputies took a report yesterday from five participants in Chase's patrols who said they heard shots being fired about 10:45 p.m. Saturday.

Chase said the shots were fired from Mexico and were directed at participants, although deputies said it's unclear where the shots were fired from or for whom they were intended."

Kind of shoots holes in your statement, doesn't it. From your own link, please read and comprehend better the facts.

The Alabama Militia is not the MM's. Please try again. These 6 guys seemed to have been caught and are getting what they deserve.

Whats wrong with teen shooters?? I have been shooting since I was 3. They were stupid in my opinion for shooting at night doing target practice, to me that is a dangerous situation. I have several guns, my Aunt is a world champion Skeet Shooter, was invited to the 84 and 88 Olympics. Guns should be respected a little more than what the video shows, but that is just my opinion.

You are still lacking in any credible evidence, everything is still hearsay, assumption, and accusation.

patriot said...

"MM Shooters". This article from a raza website and dated clear back to July of 2005. Hint....MM are not bandits.

patriot said...

"MM target practice"...sounded like a rap video to me with biased, inflamatory remarks made by the pro side about SOS.

Dee said...

Poor Liquid.
Admit it.
The MMs patrol the borders in their pickup trucks for weeks at a time. With their western wear, their camouflage outfits and their guns and rifles.

http://www.jimgilchrist.com/blog/?p=139


No use in being in denial about them. The good news? They are not you. You are running for Prez in 2008, remember?

Liquidmicro said...

Straws and grasping come to mind about Dee, what do you think Pat??

patriot said...

"MM Violence"... where were the MM mentioned as having anything to do with an Alabama Militia? This by the SPLC. Yeah, they are a really reliable and unbiased source, lol.

dee still batting zero.

Liquidmicro said...

If I lived closer to the border, I would patrol right along with them. Could put my Army training to use.

Nobody is in denial about the MM's being at the border, patrolling it for weeks at a time.

I'm sure I could get more votes just by showing up on the border, full camo gear, installing a fence. I'll even bet I could get elected.

patriot said...

quote dee: the MM patrol the border for weeks at a time in their pickup trucks with their western wear, camoflauge outfits and guns and rifles.

Uh, dee is there something illegal about any of the above? The guns and rifles are for self defense, not offense. And last I looked it wasn't illegal to drive a pickup truck or wear any kind of clothing one wants too.

Yep, liquid. You are right. dee is grasping at straws in desperation to keep her hate filled agenda going against the MM. I keep wondering when she is going to address the violence on her side. Like the white woman who got beat up in Maywood by the raza and that is only one example. I won't hold my breath though.

Liquidmicro said...

The weapons could also be for hunting, it is deer season this time of year.

Duck season too. Dove, rabbit.... Turkey hunting coming soon too.

No state has laws about weapons in vehicles as a crime. The only time it would be a crime is if the weapon is loaded while in the vehicle or the ammo is within reach of your sitting in the drivers seat.

pjgoober said...

Thanks for answering my question Dee! Your answer is something I can respect.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
As I have said countless times, CIR includes:
1. Protect & Secure our Borders
2. Sanction Employers
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows


The problem lies in Dee's numerical order. If she truly were wanting to secure the border, than she would join with the MM's that she so desperately tries to discredit. She wants employers sanctioned, yet doesn't want any laws passed. All she wants is the 12+million to be granted amnesty. Instead her order is 12 million first and foremost, employer sanctions, and then if money allows, the border fence.

She tells PJ that if the CIR were passed, she would be for sending all those after the amnesty back with there children, even the ones born here, which she will and has and does argue about the 14th Amendment never being changed. Dee is all over the map, and hopes you make designs with the interconnecting points while she spews OPEN BORDERS PROPAGANDA like the gospel.

pjgoober said...

To hijack the thread again, I read something astounding in the Wall Street Journal today (thursday dec 13th edition) in an article:
"Stoking the Immigration Fire". It's thesis is that a determined single-issue minority are halting legalization.

excerpt:
"Pro-immigration activists now concede that any attempt to revive a legalization bill is dead for perhaps five years,..."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119751215813425623.html?mod=todays_us_page_one

If you can't read it I can e-mail to anyone who wants it. This is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing (5 years!) admitted by "pro-immigration activists". None were directly quoted. There was no further elaboration. Either these activists expect that a tough ANTI republican will be president with veto power, or they think tons of ANTI Congressmen will be elected (dem or repub) or maybe they subscribe to some form of this theory I expounded (but certainly didn't invent) in the Huckabee thread a few days ago:

"...the Democrats with House, Senate (with probable stronger majorities) and presidency will not do a PRO style earned legalization + increase in legal immigration, because they will then have to take not only all of the credit, but all of the blame."

Dee said...

Careful Liquid, Sounds like you are getting too excited about this. Makes you sound like Pvt Pyle in Full Metal Jacket.



Liquid said:
If I lived closer to the border, I would patrol right along with them. Could put my Army training to use. I'm sure I could get more votes just by showing up on the border, full camo gear, installing a fence. I'll even bet I could get elected.

Dee said...

PJ,
Please continue to “hijack” this thread and any other. I do enjoy our discussions.

Thank you for the WSJ article. I have heard the “any attempt to revive a legalization bill is dead for perhaps five years” statement before. (Dems are so afraid of jeopardizing the election and keeping it if they get it) I have also heard no ANTI mass deportation bill (eg. HR4088 SAVE Act) will be passed either.

When you think about it, both statements sound credible. The Administration and Big Business are content with keeping Immigration status quo. They could care less about the PROs because they think they are powerless. They do have some respect for the ANTIs. They will occasionally throw the ANTI crowd a tidbit by adding additional patrols on the border, building more fence, conducting workplace sweeps, private prison or adding unmanned planes, but overall, they prefer Immigration policies and enforcements remain status quo. Why should they encourage the passing of a bill either way? A bill, PRO or ANTI, defeats their agenda:

Big Business, Administration AGENDA: Maintain Status Quo or push for non passable Immigration Resolutions. Pass Resolutions but find ways not to implement solutions in order to temporarily appease the masses, yet maintain status quo. Reap as many gains possible through crony built prisons, detaining entire families since cost per head/per day maximizes profits. Continue instilling fear in the American Public so they will be easy to control and manipulate. Encourage passage of bills promoting crony owned Border Security (Blackwater)and non-manned aircraft surveillance across all urban areas and borders.

patriot said...

dee, is it ok if we all "highjack" threads"? I wondered because I have been accused of doing such and it didn't meet with your approval. We want to play fair, don't we?

I thought those opposed to legalizing the illegals are among the minority according to you. If so, why are the Democrats afraid of losing the election by addressing this issue, as you stated?

Still repeating your same old nonsense over and over again I see. Don't you get tired of doing that?

ultima said...

It sounds like goober has gone into the capitulation mode. Many have said that our first goal should be to stop the hemorrhaging at the border or in Dee's words, "to secure the border". Yet, she does not support the SAVE bill. What's going on here? Is this double-speak?

Securing the border is not a simple job. The first line of defense is the physical improvement in border infrastructure: fences, electronic surveillance, roads,etc. Then a substantial increase in the number of BP agents and such auxiliaries as can be made available from the National Guard and other volunteers, well trained and adequately supervised but with full apprehension and detention authority.

The second line of defense, the importance of which some choose to ignore, is internal enforcement using roundups at high profile employers based on mismatch and duplicate ssn info. This is vital to create the disincentives for new border violations. An effective apprehension, detention and deportation policy that will tell the prospective border violator that he may be wasting his time and money (on a coyote)because his apprehension and deportation will be assured.

3. The third line of defense of the border is employer sanctions. Fine 'em and send 'em to jail. Dry up the jobs and another disincentive will be created.

We have to all of these things to secure the border but I don't think that's what Dee has in mind. She has in mind some minor changes that will leave the border as porous as before and that will not deter million of determined illegals.

ultima said...

Those who suggest that we delete the word amnesty from the dictionary are barking up the wrong tree. My advice, which I hesitate to give, is tell it like it is. Tell us all, "Yep, it's amnesty folks; now let's talk about the specifics." Since most Americans will see anything that rewards illegals with the object of their illegal entry, the change to stay and work, as amnesty. Why not just admit it and move on. This is the only way to disarm this issue.

ultima said...

It's sounds like goober wants to grant amnesty as does Dee. That is the crux of the problem because to do so removes one of the most important disincentive to further border violations. One can only conclude that they are not serious about securing the borders. It cannot be done without a significant set of disincentives and they know it. Amnesty simply invites more of the same and they know that as well as anyone.

Dee said...

Ultima,
Where you are missing it is in regards to my 3rd item, bringing the 12M out of the shadow and providing them Guest Worker status and or some path to legalization. I still call for secure borders with Trained BPs and Employer Sanctions, but bringing the 12M out of the shadows is a critical component. Your SAVE act calls for the opposite.

patriot said...

dee, how does one sanction the employers without the SAVE ACT or the raids? Those are the methods of proof that they have illegal aliens on their payroll.

Liquidmicro said...

Basically Dee says no nothing unless the 12 million are granted amnesty. So it will remain status quo, and will only get worse for the 'Illegal Immigrants' due to her all or nothing approach.

Dee said...

Liquid Dear, You keep speaking for me. Here is what I say:
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows.

It is very simple and it will work!

Liquidmicro said...

It would work if the OPEN BORDERS NUTS would allow it to begin.

However, you demonize the MM's with hearsay and accusations, yet claim to want the border patrol only to patrol the border, for just the border patrol to patrol the border we would need at least 50,000 on just the southern border.

Employer sanctions would work, again, if you would allow it to, however, any time ICE attempts to detain 'Illegal Immigrant Workers' you decry foul. Your beloved groups attack through the courts and attempt to stop any and all sanctions.

The Amnesty you desire will not happen for any of them, until the above have had time to be shown to work. By then, there may be only a few left, if any at all.

I'm willing to bet, neither you, nor I, will see an Amnesty within our lifetime.

Dee said...

Hardly Hearsay re the MMs Liquid.

Employer Sanctions will work once the 12M are in legal status. They can no longer be exploited. Borders closed to new illegal immigrants. We draw the line in the sand. No more exploitation. Period.

I agree we will not see ANY national Immigration bills pass before the election.

Liquidmicro said...

Like I have said, your numerical order has been wrong, your answer is to legalize the 12M, thus removing any employers from being prosecuted, Amnesty for ALL!!. It will never happen in our lifetime, not as you seem to think I said election. Comprehension skill still fails you.

Liquidmicro said...

The Reconquista Prophecy

Since Dee likes to deny the reconquista movement, here is Morones admitting to it. PJ, he also references 5 years from now, 2012 as being a significant year for the 'Illegals', maybe this has something to do with what you have posted.

pjgoober said...

Ultima, legalization isn't the worst thing in the world. It should be on the table. I just want big concessions for it. I want border security. I want interior enforcement targeted at both employers and illegal immigrants themselves. I also want an immigration reduction (I am thinking by about a third). I don't know if Dee agrees with me on the latter point, but Dee answered in the affirmative my question of whether or not she supports deportation for new illegal immigrants after a comprehensive reform bill is passed, even if they plant roots and have US born children. She deserves a lot of credit for that. Many would have just said "but we won't have illegal immigration after comprehensive reform if we increase legal immigration by a sufficient amount, as we should". Since we would still have illegal immigration attempts even if we allowed 7+ million immigrants per year, that is basically a pure open-borders position (since 5 billion people live in nations with average incomes lower than Mexico's, even a small percentage of these wanting to immigrate could be larger than the current US population). Dee is not UC Riverside's Armando Navarro, who I have talked to. She doesn't talk about free movement of people across the border now and forever like he does. Dee's position is in the realm of the sane, isn't open-borders, and may actually occur someday. If CIR does happen, we will need a few allies like Dee to make sure any deal is actually stuck too; that new illegal immigrants are actually deported.

patriot said...

Pj, pj you are so naive. You believe what dee tells you? lol. She is BSing you. If and when we did legalize most of the illegal aliens already in this country, she would continue to cry for the new ones that managed to sneak in afterwards and demand that they be legalized too. Don't be such a fool. Those of us who have been posting in this blog for awhile know dee's ultimate motive. She won't be satified until this country becomes a majority Hispanic country.

Dee said...

PJ, I like your style. You speak very logically. Obviously Pat does not speak for me.

I agree and I believe most American Hispanics agree, we do need border security and we want the exploitation of workers to stop.

The issue is, for those here, they should transition to legal status (whether Guest Worker or path to citizenship). Most of the larger CIR groups are saying the same. This would be a workable solution.

The key is, once this is agreed upon, sanction the employers who continue to disobey the law.

Liquid is right in one regard. There are countless unscrupulous employers who do not even want to follow the Guest Worker process. They don´t want to pay the associated taxes and fees. The prefer to pay under the table. These are the people primarily responsible for the Immigration mess.

In San Antonio, there are very successful guest worker programs in place. They should be held up as the model. My brotherinlaw (who became legal over the last few years) works in the landscaping business as a supervisor. Many of his workers are Guest Workers. The owner makes sure all of the Guest Workers process their paperwork and return home each year. I think its 2 months a year (not 100% sure, have to ask my sister). It is for some period of time. If the employers just followed the law people would be amenable to this.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You are so silly sometimes. Sometimes, I think you post videos like your so called reconquista video, just to yank my chain.

You know your whole reconquista theory is bogus. And GunnySgt who posted it, naming it as such has to be a moron.

Morones and his caller were not talking about reconquista. They were talking about myths and what some are predicting as the End of the World. Others call it Armageddon.

Here are a couple of links if you choose to believe this stuff.

2012

Mayan Prophecy

I think all Armageddon talk is interesting. If you want to indict anyone who talks about it, you are talking half the people in the world, in the US and all the Sunday morning preachers.

Liquidmicro said...

If the employers just followed the law people would be amenable to this.

This one sentence would have a very large impact on the future. It would send at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the 'Illegals' home due to enforcement through attrition, the remaining would be guest workers here 10 months out of the year and 2 months back in native country. Employers would be forced to pay living wages to all employees. Any remaining employers still trying to buck the system should be fined, jailed for a minimum of 5 years, and loss of business, i.e. no business license for life. The majority of American citizens would be satisfied with it.

Liquidmicro said...

The video is no different then those you have posted of the MM that you claim are heinous.

It is to prove a point, and yes to yank your chain.

patriot said...

dee, how can you stand to look yourself in the mirror with a straight face and continue to deny that there are reconquista organizations in this country after all the video's and quotes we have provided to you? How can you do and not feel sick when you look at yourself? You have absolutely no conscience and no soul.

patriot said...

The thing is liquid, the videos that dee posts of the MM are vague and inconclusive as evidence against the MM. But the videos that we have provided are totally undeniable by their actual statements in them and by the signs these reconquistas are carrying in the videos. All over the internet you can find evidence of the reconquista movement by the reconquistas themselves! I wonder if dee has ever admitted the truth in her life? And she is a mother and grandmother?

Liquidmicro said...

Oscar seems to being taught by his instructor Rick about the "myth" of reconquista. The "Prophecy" which says that they will one day return to their land. Oscar believes that the Migrants aren't invading, they are fulfilling the prophecy. He thought yesterday that when he saw the Virgin Guadalupe, all of the migrants in Texas and NY had the virgin with them. As his teacher says: There won't be a wall and laws, because it is prophecy from the ancestors. Morones agrees with him. The prophecies which they have talked about with Mr. Jaramillo was 2012. Avery significant year here in this area, and what they are living right now is what their ancestors talked about. The teacher (Rick) and the 'Prophecy say so.

These people believe in this 'MYTH' and are taught it by the Chicano Movement here in the USA. They are the Reconquista-Movement that Dee denies and contributes to utter non-sense. Until you, Dee, can admit to this belief by these people on the OPEN BORDER side, how can anything else you spew be taken seriously?

pjgoober said...

One more point on my position: It is overwhelmingly the legal immigration increases in the CIR bills that would have made current census bureau projections null and void, not legalization of those currently here.

Dee said...

Liquid, Liquid,
You are too silly sometimes and my chain is feeling very yanked today. I used to give you more credit, but now you are sounding a lot like Pat.

We all know the majority of Hispanics are Catholic. We are Christian. We go to church. We are family focused.

Pope Pius XII declared the Virgin of Guadalupe “Queen of Mexico and Empress of the Americas." Many Hispanics honor her and carry her picture or have a statue of her.

I have a statue of the Virgin in my home. (also of the Virgin Mary and the Sacred Heart statue of Jesus passed down to me from my Dad).

It is about religion mixed with some mysticism and myths. Part of this is the fact that the indigenous people roamed the Americas freely in the past. Some believe if the end of the world comes in 2012, (as many religions believe, including many in your own faith) they want to see the revelations occur.

This is NOT about Reconquista (there is NO SUCH THING) or about reclaiming USA to MX or anything associated with Government.

Do you believe in God? Do you go to church? Does your religion intersect with your Government? If so, you are NOT like the migrants. Instead, you and Bush have a lot in common and maybe you do qualify in running for Prez.

Dee said...

PJ, You are right about the Immigration numbers.

I read an interesting article referenced over on the Borjas Blog a couple of weeks ago about the numbers of Immigrants have increased over the last couple of years. It also said, however, that this number is misleading since a large percentage includes those immigrants that already live here but had been in progress.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee asks:Do you believe in God? Do you go to church? Does your religion intersect with your Government? If so, you are NOT like the migrants. Instead, you and Bush have a lot in common and maybe you do qualify in running for Prez.

I will answer in order.
1. NO, I believe in morales and ethics and have no excuses for not following them.
2. NO, they teach one thing while doing the opposite, hypocrites!!
3. NO

Liquidmicro for Pres in '08.!!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:

Part of this is the fact that the indigenous people roamed the Americas freely in the past.

What?? Freely?? They all had tribes with territories. They protected their territories from incursion. The north American Indian is not the same as a Central American or South American Indian. There are some tribes that were/are still on the southern border of the USA and have rights to cross the border freely in either direction (because of the border crossing through their territory), the same on the northern border, however this does not give right to all, north, central, south American Indians to freely cross the border, nor does it allow any others to do the same.

Liquidmicro said...

Since I have Native North American Indian blood in me, am I therefore allowed to cross the continent freely, absolving all sovereignty of any country??

Dee said...

Liquid,
You don´t believe in God?
My gosh Liquid. Maybe now I understand your reason for so much cynicism.

Dee said...

Liquid, No more chain yanking. We all know the indians migrated around the country, particularly in winter vs summer.
Also, there were Indians that lived all through the USA and MX border, travelling back and forth frequently. Even today, think of the Indian Reservation in the Eagle Pass - Piedras Negras area.

Dee said...

Actually Liquid, I think of you as the John Wayne type. You come and go wherever you please.

Did I get that right? (brother, did I)

Liquidmicro said...

You fail to answer my question, by restating what I have already said about some Indians that are still allowed to cross the borders without passport, however all that cross the border 'Illegally' are not Native Indian tribal members.

Again, I ask, Since I have Native North American Indian blood in me, am I therefore allowed to cross the continent freely, absolving all sovereignty of any country??

Liquidmicro said...

Indians had territories, they traveled these territories during the seasons, having areas where they new how to live in each season. They were not travelers of the entire continent. They all had different beliefs and cultures as well.

patriot said...

Apparently dee going to church and stating that she believes in God has done nothing for her.

She has forgotten that God expects us to be honest. Her continued denial of reconquista even when video and comments are provided to her in here to prove it, shows a blatant disrepect for God's expectation of truthfullness.

She should go to church and get down on her knees and beg God's forgiveness for her blantant dishonesty. It is shameful!

Dee said...

If you want to become a member of a tribe and live by the rules of the tribe, then you have to meet the criteria. Here is one tribe´s criteria. Determine which tribe you belong to and complete the form.

http://www.micmac-nsn.gov/html/membership.html

Dee said...

Here is one for the TX tribes.


Tribes of TX

Here are the 3 tribes Federally recognized.
1 Alabama-Coushatta Tribe of Texas
2 Kickapoo Traditional Tribe of Texas
3 Ysleta del Sur Pueblo

You can see several tribes and many of them cross each others boundaries. In fact, the Kickapoo tribe is from OK yet they are recognized in TX-MX border and run the Casino in Eagle Pass TX across from Piedras Negras MX.

I think you are very wrong Liquid. Based on the tribes and the very sketchy boundaries it is very clear several indigent tribes have historically roam acrossed the Southwest (USA & MX) for hundreds of years.

Dee said...

Now identify your tribe.

Find their Website.

Download their form.

Provide them the required verification.

And you can roam along with your tribe across their reservation and across their migratory lines (e.g. Kickapoo).

Also, you do not know who does or does not meet this criteria of those you reference as ileeeegals.

Liquidmicro said...

My blood is Blackfoot (Piegan descent). My tribe is from Canada, yet recognized from Canada to Montana. A territory traveled mostly by foot.

One of your TX tribes was just caught selling false documents to 'Illegals'.
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ks/press/Sept07/09_21.html

Dee said...

(Chain Yanker) Liquid,
As I said,
Find their Website.

Download their form.

Provide them the required verification.

Liquidmicro said...

I don't need to, I told you already what my bloodline is. My passport is sufficient for what I need to do. I already have privileges, although I don't need to use them.

What tribe are you, where is your blood from? Where/what are your privileges? Why are you not involved with your tribe? Why have you not gotten recognition from them?

Liquidmicro said...

All you have done is repeat what i have said with your own version of it. Come up with something original. roamed the SW, which is not the entire continent, but rather a territory as I have stated.

Dee said...

Make up your mind Liquid.
Either you want to be recognized as a Native American or not. If not, then don´t say you want to be recognized as such. Sheesh!

Dee said...

Liquid,
You need some Christmas Cheer or something.
I know you said you were an atheist, but at least try to believe in Santa. Go get a hot toddie! It might relax you!

Liquidmicro said...

I never said I wanted to be recognized as such, I merely asked you a question: Since I have Native North American Indian blood in me, am I therefore allowed to cross the continent freely, absolving all sovereignty of any country??

For which you returned links of membership into a tribe from Maine. You also stated: Also, you do not know who does or does not meet this criteria of those you reference as ileeeegals.

Yet the criteria you speak requires them to be American Citizens, or did you miss that part of the link you posted?? Or, how about needing to be 1/4 or more blood?? meaning Mom and Dad or a pair of grandparents need to be full blood.And thats for the tribes along the borders, not from anywhere else throughout the country. Thus, Illegal Immigrants from Central and South America are crossing 'Illegally'!! Thus my reference to the TX tribe caught selling fraudulent documents to the 'Illegals'. Please follow along with the conversation. You know how I get tired of dumbing things down for you.

Dee said...

For the Maine tribe it does, but not for any other that I know of.

Poor Liquid. You are so rude, but now I know why.

You have nothing but coal where your heart belongs.

Quit being so mean and relax a little. No use using words like Dumbing down. That is just rude. Try to be a little nicer, especially this time of year.

Liquidmicro said...

And once coal is compacted enough, it turns into a Diamond, just what every woman wants.

Liquid for Pres. 2008

Dee said...

Every time you write, I get a picture of you in my mind.

You are tall, just over six foot. You have broad shoulders. You have a resounding, booming voice.

You are cocky and sure of yourself but not conceited. You do not consider yourself handsome although you think you look pretty decent. Some say you are man´s man.

When you come into a room, your workers suddenly stand up or sit up straight. They are not afraid of you but somewhat intimidated by you.

You have a secretary girl Friday. She does everything from print out your email to bring you your coffee. She is in her 30´s or 40´s. Your relationship with her is more like a mother vs a girlfriend.

You are in everyone´s business at work. You sneak up on them from time to time. It´s not to check up on them, rather it is just to see what´s happening. They are a bit intimidated by this so are careful to call each other on their cell phones to forewarn when you are coming around.

Women are drawn to you at first, until they get to know you, then they get nervous.

You like small, passionate, saucy women. My guess is you have been married a few times and had many more relationships. What happens is, after you get to know them, and they get to know you, things change. You expect people to listen and do as you say. Most women that you are attracted to cannot take this for long. You probably need a mousy, stay at home, woman but you think she is too boring for you.

My guess is I am right no target Liquid. Do you agree?

PS: Here is the picture of you I get:

here

and

here

patriot said...

Looks like dee has been nipping into the "spiced up" eggnog one too many times.

Dee said...

I get a picture when I see your posts too Pat. Here is what I see.

You are 5´8" tall, slim, receding hairline. You puff your chest out and have a nasally twang. You talk loud as if to overcompensate, although you do have a problem of listening to what other people say. You have always blamed everything that went wrong in your life on someone else.

You are a retiree now and were in some line of sales, low to middle success.

You are married to "the little woman" all of your life, probably living in the same house for the last 20 years or so. She likes you and forgives you your faults. She is a keeper. She probably makes you go to church on Sunday and is a very good cook.

You are not as bad as you sound and you have taken up the Illegal Immigration cause because this is the perfect scapegoat for all the ills in your life. Not too close and someone to blame.

Here is the picture I get of you:

here

here

Dee said...

Now as for Ulty,
I have two pictures of him.
One when he was young.
And one of him now.

When he was young, he was adventerous and brash as in GP.
Ulty & Lupita

And now, as an elderly stateman and professor, solid family man troubled by what has become of the Immigration Issues.
elder statesman Ulty

Sometimes I think two people post under his name. At times he is thoughtful and open-minded. Other times he is as non-compromising as you are Pat.

patriot said...

dee, I don't have any "ills" in my life, therefore I don't need a scapegoat. You are about 99.9% wrong in your description of me. I am a law abiding American who expects our immigration laws to be honored. No one needs a scapegoat for that. The rule of law speaks for itself.

My first wife was a liar like you. Fortunately I found a wonderful woman since then who is honest that I have been married to for 10 years.

No receding hairline, I have a full head of hair. No nasally twang and I don't feel the need to puff up my chest. I don't have big, over-inflated ego like you do.

My wife doesn't make me go to church. I don't go to church because I have God in my heart and organized religion is for fools. I told you I am an independent thinker. I am a loving husband to her and considered to be a great father to my kids by my first marriage. I also have grandkids.

I listen to what other people say but they best not lie to me. A person can have a difference of opinion without resorting to lying....hint, hint.

My wife is a good cook and I have only lived in this house for 8 years now. I have never been in sales. I am retired and work part time. I also volunteer at our local senior citizen center. That is all I have to tell you about myself.

Dee said...

Just as I figured, dear Barney!

LoL

patriot said...

I don't look anything like Don Knotts. Is that all you have is childish personal insults? First you attack people's character and then you attack their looks? You are behaving like a two year old in here.

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