Friday, October 23, 2009

Immigration Reform Around the Corner! Time to start discussing Immigration Talking Points!

Readers,
Once the Healthcare Reform package is passed, many in the PRO Immigration Reform ranks are confident the Administration will move on to the Immigration Reform discussion. One PRO Group,
"Immigration Works USA" has sent the PRO Immigration Reform supporters and bloggers "PRO Talking Points." This is significant news. Immigration Works is a very highly regarded PRO Organization.
Their President is long time PRO scholar Tamar Jacoby. All ANTIs and PROs who have been involved in the Immigration Reform discussion are very familiar with Tamar, her writings and her strong support for Immigration Reform. As her bio indicates, her career "has been marked by an outspoken advocacy for policies that would liberalize America's immigration laws-which she believes is an essential policy shift in order to maintain the economic growth of the United States while preventing a brain drain to other nations-specifically, the passage of a broad guest-worker program, which some critics have described as an amnesty proposal. "
With such a credible group predicting Immigration Reform discussions are imminent, and their sending all PRO bloggers and supporters talking points, I want to get the ball rolling and share these talking points with all of my readers. I am asking ALL of my viewers to read over these talking points and respond, point for point, with your perspective. I am particularly asking my ANTI readers to study them and respond, point for point. I WANT TO KNOW YOUR PERSPECTIVE!
Dee
Immigration Works PRO Talking Points:
There are two categories I want to discuss:
I. Immigration Essentials
II. Polling Results
The following are summaries of Immigration Works' two categories. I have provided a bullet point summary for each of these categories. For the detailed results for these 2 categories, CLICK ON THE LINKS PROVIDED. Please read these two categories over and provide your perspective for each bullet point. Thank you!
======================================
I. Immigration Essentials: (CLICK ON LINK FOR DETAILED DESCRIPTIONS)
America Needs Foreign Workers Now
1. Some Industries can't find enough workers even in a recession.
2. The downturn hasn't reversed basic demographic trends.

3. Labor shortages could choke the recovery.
4. Employers support Immigration
Employers support Immigration Enforcement

1. Fix it now - Congress must restore the rule of law
- employers want to be on right side of law
- employers need gov't help. need reliable system to verify employees
2. E-Verify has the makings of an effective system, but it needs work.
3. Enforce tougher sanctions against egregious employers.
4. The best antidote to illegal immigration is a workable legal immigration system.
What Employers Need in a Reform Bill
1. All versions of Comprehensive Immigration Reform are not equal. Should have 3 pillars:
a. effective enforcement in border and workplace
b. practical answer for 12M here
c. more visas for foreign workers arriving in the future
--however-- AFL-CIO wants a bill with fewer add'l visas; instead quotas
2. Why a bill without additional employment-based visas will work for employers or the economy.
3. What employers need to ask about a proposed commission to set immigration quotas.

II POLLS Say: Public Opinion on Immigration (CLICK ON LINK FOR DETAILED DESCRIPTIONS)
1. Only a small minority of voters strongly support ANTI Immigration Views.
- surveys say only 26% support 12M leaving the country; 85% say its impossible to deport all 12M; Over Half of Dobbs viewers disagree on his immigration stance.
2. Even in the recession, voters want immigration reform.
3. Voters support enforcement and want a legal, orderly immigration process.
- greater control at border; 68% think employers knowingly hire illegals; 55% welcome everyone except felonious criminals.
4. Consistent majorities support comprehensive immigration reform that combines better enforcement with a path to citizenship.
- more than 60% of voters support path to citizenship.
5. Voters have mixed feelings, but don't blame the immigrants.

43 comments:

ultima said...

"1. Some Industries can't find enough workers even in a recession."

This should be the beginning point for all discussions on immigration reform. Our immigration quotas should be tailored as precisely as possible to the actual need for foreign workers once we have made every effort to fill jobs with citizens. Let these industries submit irrefutable proof that they can’t find enough citizen workers if they offer a living wage and appropriate benefits with a hiring preference for citizens.

ultima said...

"2. The downturn hasn't reversed basic demographic trends."

Although no reference is provided, I accept that this is probably true. Basic demographic trends can be changed only with major alternations in tax and immigration policies aimed at achieving a goal of a stable population.

The question is: "Are these basic demographic trends good for America?" Is the prospect a population of 0.6-1.1 billion a good thing?

ultima said...

"3. Labor shortages could choke the recovery."

Where are these shortages? Certainly not in Las Vegas, Michigan and CA where the unemployment rate is double digit. I view labor shortages as a Red Herring expecially given the current unemployment rates. A booming economy might produce labor shortages but this is unlikely in the middle of a major recession.

ultima said...

Of course employers support immigration. They have always wanted cheap labor and a way to foist health care costs for illegals unto the public. It’s very appealing when you can shift some of your legitimate cost of doing business to the public.
E-verify is extremely reliable and any remaining wrinkles in its reliability are best determined in practice not by postponing the mandatory implementation of this effective tool. Congress cannot restore the rule of law if it does not require the Administration to use all the available tools to achieve that goal. This does not include changing the law to grant amnesty.
Saying that E-verify needs work is another Red Herring designed to forestall the implementation of this system across the board.
The best antidote for illegal immigration is a national objective of a stable population, announced to the world, and tax and immigration policies to achieve that objective. In the meantime continuing border staffing and infrastructure improvements and vigorous internal enforcement essential.

ultima said...

"a. effective enforcement in border and workplace"

Using E-verify across the board in public and private employers for all employees current and new hires is the only way this can be done This system will identify both miscreant employers and illegal aliens.
"b. practical answer for 12M here"

The 12 million should not be addressed until we have objective evidence that the borders are secure and that border and workplace enforcement is really working. Once we know that the hemorrhaging has been stopped, everyone will feel more sympathetic toward the illegals that are already here and the solution to this problem will be easier.
c. more visas for foreign workers arriving in the future
--however-- AFL-CIO wants a bill with fewer add'l visas; instead quotas
The number and variety of visas should be reduced until they are consistent with our actual labor needs and pegged to the unemployment rate.

ultima said...

"2. Why a bill without additional employment-based visas will work for employers or the economy."

It is an illusion to expect that population-driven growth can be sustained in the long run. We might as well face up to that now rather than later. Myopia does not serve us well. It’s time to be thinking about a sustainable economy not a go-go economy with jillions of more people to try to feed and provide medical care to.

ultima said...

"3. What employers need to ask about a proposed commission to set immigration quotas."

How can continued high levels of immigration be reconciled with finite natural resources, green house gases, and other damage to the environment?

ultima said...

"1. Only a small minority of voters strongly support ANTI Immigration Views.
- surveys say only 26% support 12M leaving the country; 85% say its impossible to deport all 12M; Over Half of Dobbs viewers disagree on his immigration stance."

There is a more positive way to put the question about immigration.
One cannot ascertain the depth of the Pro-America movement’s feeling about restrictive immigration policies and the repatriation of some of the illegals without asking the right questions. A few simple yes or no questions don’t have a prayer of gauging voter sentiment on these complex matters. I don’t know what Lou Dobbs stance is on immigration but I strongly believe that a reduction to more like 200,000 per year in all categories would serve our nation well. The 85% are clearly wrong when they say it is impossible to deport all 12 M. As I have said many times, the logistic feasibility of that has been clearly demonstrated in Europe at the close of WW II when 8 million ethnic German were repatriated to the Gernan heartland from the Eastern Territories using a devastated transportation system.

ultima said...

"2. Even in the recession, voters want immigration reform."

We all want immigration reform now but not just any old reform or the previous attempts at CIR. Many if not most of the voters who want immigration reform are probably wondering how that will help they to get a job or keep their job. You can’t tell what voters really want until you define for them what you mean by immigration reform. If you define it as limiting immigration to the level necessary to stabilize our population, many will agree. If you define it as a reform which will assure full employment for citizens before any foreign labor and be allowed to enter our country, that would attract another group of supporters. If you define it as open borders, ineffective internal enforcement, etc., many will say, “No, that’s not what I had in mind.” If you define it as periodic amnesties for everyone who breaks immigration laws, most would say “no!” If you define it as any policy that leads to a population of 0.6-1.1 billion people by the end of this century, you will get another negative answer. If you define it as a reform that will permit millions of more people to come and stress our natural resources, national parks and monuments, and reduce our standard of living, few would be in favor of that kind of reform. But just like the health care reform bill, Congress will not come clean on the long term ramifications of immigration reform.

ultima said...

"3. Voters support enforcement and want a legal, orderly immigration process.
- greater control at border; 68% think employers knowingly hire illegals; 55% welcome everyone except felonious criminals."

The voters are singularly uniformed and unconcerned about the long term ramifications of welcoming everyone except felons. They like, so many others, are shortsighted and don’t even worry about the impact on their descendents. What a sorry state of affairs it is when even the voters take the short view like the politicians. What if we told the voters how many foreign-born people they are in our country now? What if we told them the historical level of all immigrants was 200,000 per year and asked them if that seemed like a reasonable number?

ultima said...

"4. Consistent majorities support comprehensive immigration reform that combines better enforcement with a path to citizenship.
- more than 60% of voters support path to citizenship."

The voters have been brain-washed into thinking that a pathway to citizenship would have no consequences for the rule of law and the incentives for even larger numbers of illegals who will be expecting that they too will eventually be able to gain a pathway to citizenship – and they would be right. The 60% means nothing unless all of the polls that have asked this question are identified and along with the actual text of the question that was asked.

ultima said...

"5. Voters have mixed feelings, but don't blame the immigrants."

This is true. Voters know there are many hardworking immigrants who are merely looking for a better life. The blame rests most importantly with the government and all the cheap labor lobbyists who encourage and allow illegals to enter this country. Nevertheless many voters, if asked whether people should be allowed to violate immigration laws with impunity, would give a resounding answer of “no!”. This would suggest that they also hold the illegal aliens culpable.

ultima said...

"Voters with strongly anti-immigrant views are disproportionately seniors. According to the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, voters under 30 are half as likely as those over 65 to think “newcomers from other countries threaten traditional American customs and values” (30% to 65%)."

Must have something to do with the wisdom that often comes with age and the myopia of young people.

Anonymous said...

Evidently there are some older folks in here also afflicted with myopia so it isn't just the young and immature who lack good sense and the wisdom that age brings.

Vicente Duque said...

Tom Tancredo POTUS, Mike Huckabe VIPOTUS
The Internet is filled with Science Fiction :


I see all the programs of "The Universe", Astrophysics and Elementary Particles. Offered by the Discovery Channel, National Geographic, etc ...

There are an Infinite Number of Universes, many of them similar to ours.

In one of those Universes Tom Tancredo was elected president of the United States. And Mike Huckabee is vice president.

There are many concentration camps for the Latinos ( legal or illegal ) and the guards are the former Minutemen.

In that Universe Shawna Forde and Gunny Bush are doing nasty things to Latino Children and Women.

There are many trains loaded with "Aliens" and "Illegals" and some "Legals" and this has caused a great congestion and paralysis of trade and businesses in the Southern States of the Union. No Latin Trade.

Hitler gave priority to Trains loaded for Jews, to the fury of his generals in the Russina Front. They needed food and munition to supply the beleaguered Nazi Forces in Stalingrad, but Hitler's hate was all too powerful.

Hitler's overruling of von Paulus and von Manstein in Stalingrad, Kursk and Cherkassy were tragic Military Imbecility. ( In all those battles the Nazis were besieged and overrun by Russian Superiority )

Trains for the Jews, but not for the Wehrmacht, while Germans were starving and shivering in the Russian Front.

Mexico attemps to close the border with a "Tortilla" Fence parallel to the Republican Fence, to stop the trains and the evictions of the Minutemen.

And Tom and Mike are thinking of using Nuclear Weapons to destroy Mexico.

The problem is that there are some winds that blow to the North and could kill many Americans with Radioactive materials. Many animals migrate to the North like Ducks and Geese. Environmentalists are concerned !

And the Gulf of Mexico Currents could carry Radioactivy to the South, Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas and even Boston and Massachussetts could become radioactive.

And some Whales and Tuna fish in the Pacific could carry radioactiviy as far as Portland and Washington State.

Sounds Stupid ????

Yes, indeed, extremely Idiotic an Stupid.

Raciality.com

Vicente Duque

Vicente Duque said...

Dee, I forgot something about the Parallel Universe in which Tom is POTUS and Mike is VIPOTUS :

The Minutemen have become like the SS of Heinrich Himmler, guarding the Concentration Camps and rounding up the despicable lower races. Many people are imprisoned by mistake, or because of a sun tan.

Evolution IST VERBOTTEN !

Laughing Out Loud at the Imbecility of some in the Internet, and the many plans that belong to parallel universes.

HA, HA, HA !! ...... one thousand times !!

Raciality.com

Vicente Duque

ultima said...

Before making up your mind about immigration reform you need to view this video

ultima said...

WASHINGTON (CNN) - A new national poll indicates that nearly three-quarters of all Americans would like to see a decrease in the number of illegal immigrants in the country.

Seventy-three percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Thursday morning called for a drop in the number of illegal immigrants, with 22 percent saying the number should remain the same and just 3 percent stating that there should be an increase in the number of illegal immigrants. That 73 percent figure is the highest number since CNN started asking this question four years ago.

According to the poll, 37 percent want to see all illegal immigrants deported, also the highest number since the questions was first asked in 2006, and another 23 percent say that the number of illegal immigrants in the country should be decreased significantly.

"Support for deporting all illegal immigrants is highest among older Americans and people who live in rural areas. It's highest in the South and Midwest and nearly as high in the Northeast, but only one in four Westerners think that all illegal immigrants should be deported," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll was conducted October 16-18, with 1,038 adult Americans questioned by telephone. The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

ultima said...

I guess you can find a poll to support any point of view. A new national poll indicates that nearly three-quarters of all Americans would like to see a decrease in the number of illegal immigrants in the country.

ultima said...

These talking points seem to be a mixed bag. Although this poll does not specifically address immigration reform it certainly does deal with illegal aliens.

Bradwhg said...

Interesting blog. Ultima has pretty much summed up the situation in this country on both legal and illegal immigration.

Just a couple of additions. First no one in the pro illegal - open border -give them amnesty crowd ever discusses what the population of this country should be. That question is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one every talks about. Adding more people is not the answer to any of this country's problems.

The 12 million illegal alien figure is government mis-information at it's finest. The real figure is probably upwards of 20 million. Remember the Border Patrol figures that it only catches one out of 4. It was estimated that over 4 million illegally crossed our borders in 2002. Time magazine estimated the number at 15 million in 2004 and Bear Stearns estimated 18-20 million in 2005 The American Resistance website currently estimates the number at over 40 million. The only people that continually use the 11-12 million figure are those that want to distort the impact an amnesty would have. After all it is not just those who are here illegally now that will impact this country. You will be also adding all of the children born to them over their lifetime and the chain migration/family reunification that will follow an amnesty. Times what ever figure you want to use by 10 and then you will have a closer idea of the impact.

Everyone should see the video Immigration Gumballs or Immigration by the Numbers. Google it and find out where we are headed.

Dee said...

Ultima,
I agree with much of what you say about immigration quotas and the need to base quotas or increases based on the need for foreign workers.
I also agree on the need for employer verification via tools like everify. Today, employers ask for ss#, birth certificate, drug tests, credit scores in order to verify and hire employees.

The issue of shortages is difficult. Will auto workers in Detroit be willing to go pick crops or even work in the service industry? I many cases, no. We've seen this happen time and time again. So if they are unwilling and there are jobs that continue to go unfilled, can we expect farm owners to let their crops rot? No. They need workers.

Dee said...

Ultima,
We of course agree on secure borders utilizing trained border patrol agents.
We also agree (at least I think we do) that ICE's efforts should be targetted on capturing Drug Cartels/gangs and felonious criminals, vs going after workers in car washes or picking crops.

Dee said...

Ultima,
I am willing to consider reduced number of future immigrants, as long as we identify a logical and humanitarian method of processing the 12M here. As you know, many of them have been here +50 - 20 years, especially those who were brought here as children and know not other country. How can we expect them to be thrown into a country they have never known? What if it is war-torn? Shouldn't they have at least the opportunity to apply for citizenship? If they are felony free and contributing to society? I think most Americans are at least open to discussion on finding a resolution for this. (except for the extreme ANTIs)

Dee said...

Ultima,
We have seen a decrease in the number. The census bureau is saying the number is now 11M and ICE is saying we are at the lowest level of incoming in over a decade.

Dee said...

Brad,
Most of us have seen the NumbersUSA Gumball Video. Roy Beck is John Tanton's protege, so we understand the bias from which it was created.

The census bureau and ICE are those who indicate the number here is 11M. ICE has reported we are seeing the lowest numbers of "illegals" coming in now in over a decade. People are leaving due to the economy and due to the hatefilled atmosphere promoted by some. (e.g. arpaio) Arizona has particularly seen vast decreases.

And, most of the children you are referencing are something else. They are CITIZENS.

Incidently, the census bureau also tells us we have 50M American citizens who are Latinos. Unfortunately, those who "hate illeegals" cannot tell the difference. That is why we are seeing such a rise in Hate Crimes against Latinos. The FBI reports a 40% increase. This racial profiling and Hate Crimes have to stop!!

Anonymous said...

The farming industry only makes up 2% of our workforce so that isn't a good example to use to justify keeping 12 million illegals in our country. For those jobs there are visas that go unused now for foreign workers so in a sense there isn't a real shortage there either because farmers already have a way to import legal foreign workers for those jobs.

ICE's responsibility is to go after everyone who is in our country illegally, not just the hardened criminals. They can and should do both.

If someone has been in our country for 20 plus years illegally how have they been supporting themselves? Many if not most have committed a felony by working with fake I.D.'s and SS numbers. Are we to just forgive felons? We don't do that for our own citizens.

How could the census estimate how many illegals are in our country today? We haven't had a census taken in years and aren't due one till next year.

Please explain how objecting to illegal immigration or enforcing our immigration laws is "hate filled." Please also explain how the census can claim that there are 50 million legal Hispanic citizens in this country when they count everyone in theis country whether they be legal or illegal. The census is not claiming any such thing nor could they.

If illegal immigration from mostly south of our border is greatly reduced than so shall the so-called hate crimes against Latinos. It isn't rocket science.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Arizona has particularly seen vast decreases."

Kudos to Arpaio. This proves that to make an omelet you have to break some eggs. I don't support any abuse of immigrants but I do support whatever other methods or sweeps produce results. Contact me when the number is down to 1 million.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Will auto workers in Detroit be willing to go pick crops or even work in the service industry?"

No, I agree they are not likely to do so because they are so inured with the foodstamp, ADC, foodbanks, unemployment comp, etc.that they think the government owes them a living even if they refuse to do farm or hospitality jobs. This doesn't apply to all of them. Some are willing to do anything including working two jobs to make their own way. I admire those folks who take personal responsibility.

The bottom line is we need foreign labor in the fields and true immigration reform would provide a mechanism for determining how many are needed and what kind of a system and immigraton policies would best serve the interests of the farmers and ranchers, the workers, and the national interest.

I remember reading in the novel Centennial by James Michener that the Mexican farm workers loved to spend the winters in Denver's cantinas using whatever money they could earn and save during the planting and harvest seasons. Some I understand prefer to return to Mexico for the winter and perhaps would do so in greater numbers if we facilitated their return South and their return North if they have a green card.

This is a problem that has a solution which probably could be found more easily by a private or public commission with representatives from the general public as well as farmers and businesses. I would exclude any other immigration advocacy groups.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "I am willing to consider reduced number of future immigrants, as long as we identify a logical and humanitarian method of processing the 12M here."

Thank you! This is one of your most positive posts. It is possible that decisions regarding illegal aliens could be made on the local level by people who are familiar with labor needs, the contributions of foreign workers to the local economy and the community, their efforts to learn English and see to it that their children get a good education and are schooled by their parents in the same way that you were.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Roy Beck is John Tanton's protege, so we understand the bias from which it was created."

So let's not shoot the messenger. If the gum ball figures are wrong, expose the error. If they are baised, expose the bias.

I have a feeling that if you ever met Roy Beck you would like him. I think he is a human being who is tryi8ng to do the right thing for this country -- a very difficult job at best because of the myopia of Congress, the Administration and many others. I admire Roy's reasonableness and tenacity

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "ICE is saying we are at the lowest level of incoming in over a decade."

Does ICE have the annual figures for the last ten years? What is that "lowest level"?

Vicente Duque said...

Videos : Senator Dick Durbin, Democrat, Illinois, talking about Immigration Reform and Dream Act

Coming to grips with Reality !

October 23, 2009
Illinois' senior senator promises to push for comprehensive immigration reform in 2010.

Sen. Durbin talks immigration reform

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTzbZhrE9Gc


October 19, 2009
Actress and activist Eva Longoria-Parker says it is time for Congress to "take on" the illegal immigration issue and not use it to scuttle health care reform.

Eva Longoria-Parker: Time To 'Take On' Illegal Immigration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ovXxXytcxQ

Milenials.com

Vicente Duque

Dee said...

Ulty,
here is one reference. I've seen many:

Illegal Immigration Drastically Declines from Mexico


by lauraj on Jul.31, 2009, under Deportation, E-Verify, Immigration Law Reform, Law and Policy

What has caused the drastic decline in illegal immigration from Mexico?

In the past year, the number of illegal immigrants crossing the border into the U.S. has reached the lowest level of the past ten years. With the tough economic environment continuing in the U.S., it comes as no surprise to see that fewer immigrants are taking the risk of illegally crossing the border into the U.S. in order to find work. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) placed the unemployment rate for June at 9.5 percent or 14.7 million unemployed people with the prediction of ending the year at an estimated 10.5 percent. Many of the sectors that have been hardest hit tend to employ a large percentage of undocumented workers such as construction and landscaping.


Declining Numbers
According to the Pew Hispanic Center, from March 2008 to March 2009 the number of illegal immigrants crossing the border from Mexico fell to 175,000. This is a significant drop from the peak influx of immigrants in 2005 of 653,000 crossing the border. In addition to the economic downturn, the U.S. has cracked down on illegal immigration not only at the border but also within the U.S. through immigration audits at certain businesses and through community arrests such as operation “Community Shield”. Operation Community Shield is a coordinated effort between ICE and other customs and immigration agencies as well as state and local law enforcement which work together in an effort to target criminal street gangs.

http://www.phelpsattorneys.com/
blog/deportation/illegal-
immigration-drastically-declines-
from-mexico.html#more-207

Dee said...

Ultima,
Yes. I have an issue with Roy Beck and his gumballs. Read his chart. He says "immigrants and their DESCENDANTS." What a ludicrous chart. What if Teddy Roosevelt produced a gumball chart in 1910 re: the Germans and illustrated the rate of immigrants and their descendants in red from 1910 - 2000. The chart would look the same. All the "scary" red. However in Teddy's chart the "scary red" are the Germans, Italians and Eastern Europeans. Roy colors those scary to Teddy in "safe" green on his chart. He only illustrates the scary Latinos in scary Red on his chart.

Biased? Yes.
Ridiculous? Yes.
What do you expect from Tanton's protege Beck.

In the REAL World, DESCENDANTS = CITIZENS!

Dee said...

Ultima,
Yes. I have an issue with Roy Beck and his gumballs. Read his chart. He says "immigrants and their DESCENDANTS." What a ludicrous chart. What if Teddy Roosevelt produced a gumball chart in 1910 re: the Germans and illustrated the rate of immigrants and their descendants in red from 1910 - 2000. The chart would look the same. All the "scary" red. However in Teddy's chart the "scary red" are the Germans, Italians and Eastern Europeans. Roy colors those scary to Teddy in "safe" green on his chart. He only illustrates the scary Latinos in scary Red on his chart.

Biased? Yes.
Ridiculous? Yes.
What do you expect from Tanton's protege Beck.

In the REAL World, DESCENDANTS = CITIZENS!

Dee said...

Ultima,
I am glad you agree that most Auto workers will not perform certain/many available jobs including harvesting crops. I know losing your job is hard and going to a lesser paying job is even harder. However these jobs must be done. There is another piece to this. How many autoworkers will go into IT? Especially with no training or background in IT. What about the medical field? There are many shortages there as well.

Clinton, in his day, told us the manufacturing jobs were leaving and to obtain training for the service/medical/IT sectors. Many of these jobs cannot be outsourced offshore and must be worked domestically, especially the medical, service and agjobs. Yet they still have to be done. So who does them? Especially as we Boomers age.

Dee said...

Ultima,
I like your thoughts on the Guest Worker programs. There are programs that work. Example: My brotherinlaw works as a supervisor for a lawncare contractor for a large city. They have some guest workers fill some of the jobs. They have it set up so the workers work 10 months in the US and return home for 2 months every year. My sister says this program works very well and the workers like it as well. Seems like we discussed this previously (I think with Liquidmicro) and there are limited guestworker visas like this and the business owners have lots of documentation to complete. Most find it easier to do this illegally, and more profitably for them.

But, this type of program does make sense and a win win for all.

Anonymous said...

"Many of these jobs cannot be outsourced offshore and must be worked domestically, especially the medical, service and agjobs. Yet they still have to be done. So who does them? Especially as we Boomers age."

Who is going to do those jobs? Why, American citizens that is who! Are you saying we don't have an available young American workforce to take many of those jobs? Accept for picking crops Americans will do the other jobs mentioned especially in the medical field as they pay well.

Those visas for farm workers are not limited to the point that would create a shortage. Yes, the farmers are too lazy to complete the necessary forms and why should they when there is cheap illegal labor available instead? Take away that availability and they would be forced to fill out the ncessary forms and to hire legal foreign labor instead. It appears that the pro-illegals want it both ways. They claim they want the employers punished and yet if it puts an illegal out of work their tune changes. You can't have it both ways.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "How many autoworkers will go into IT? "

Not many but how many illegal aliens will go into IT. I think the argument regarding IT right now is that employers want a change in the immigration laws so they can hire more foreign tech workers who are willing to work for less than theie citizen counterparts. I think that is all right as long as the tech worker professional organizations sign off that all of their meembers who are seeking work have been hired first. The problem is the employers are not sympathetic to that point of view because they don't want to pay the going rate for citizen tech workers and in some cases the foreign workers are better qualified or harder workers. Employers have face up to their responsibilities to their fellow citizens and negotiate a fair wage and benefit package with a full understanding of what the level of output is expected from such hires without imposing some sort of sweatshop on them.

ultima said...

Dee, I think you missed Roy's point. He was not bashing immigrants and their progeny per se, rather he is opposed to the system which has the result he shows in the red. He, like I, am interested in stabilizing our population. I even hear from an organization called NPG, "Negative Population Growth" to make up for the past's effect on natural resources, standards of living, environment and quality of life. To achieve a stable population is it necessary to limit immigration because that is the primary source of growth. If you listened carefully to the video about the Muslims you would have noticed that without the influx of Hispanics the U.S. would be below the level necessary to sustain its culture -- whatever that happens to be. This is a little like the economic growth and labor arguments which also have some degree of validity.

Dee said...

Ultima said, "employers are not sympathetic to that point of view because they don't want to pay the going rate for citizen tech workers and in some cases the foreign workers are better qualified or harder workers."

Ultima,
Yes. I think you are right. Many employers do say this.
How do you motivate displaced workers to go back to school and obtain the education needed for these jobs?

I do understand this from both sides. I worked for a large corporation that often outsourced IT jobs offshore. They also employ large numbers of employees domestically, but there were always vast shortages of experienced, knowledgeable workers for new technology development. (remember Bob..he always said the same). Some other countries start their students on the IT track at a young age. I know many of the Dreamers are IT students.

Dee said...

Ultima,
Let's agree to disagree about Roy Beck and John Tanton, etc. I'm sure I won't change your mind about them and vice versa.

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