Monday, December 3, 2007

TIME Reports: ANTIs Motivation for Raising the Heat on Immigration Issues

As I have been reporting, the Main Stream Media (MSM) is starting to report on all of the ANTI anger and rhetoric which is increasingly evident during the Election Campaign. I say it is about time this view is reported! I´ve witnessed it for quite some time!

A few days after Thanksgiving, I asked Mike Huckabee what had surprised him about voters over the past six months of campaigning. "The intensity of the immigration issue," he said immediately, and then added, "I honestly don't know why it's gotten so hot."...

John McCain, the sponsor of immigration-reform legislation, has been a target. During a recent town-hall meeting in Hopkinton, N.H., a heavily muscled young man with closely cropped hair began to shout about "open borders" as the issue "that will destroy this country ... You can't imagine the amount of anger your average European Christian American feels about the multicultural tower of Babel." He raised the possibility of "civil war." McCain usually turns warrior when confronted with such blatant racism, but sensing the heat in the room, he held his fire this time, calmly saying "I will do everything in my power to secure our borders... But on the larger issue you raise, I believe that people who have come here [legally] from other countries... are our greatest strength."
There are signs of festering intolerance even among Democratic audiences, noticeably in Iowa, which has seen a surge of Latino immigration in recent years. The Democratic candidates are uniformly in favor of comprehensive immigration reform, including a path to citizenship for those who have entered the country illegally. But they receive sharp — pointed — applause when they say illegals should "have to speak English" before becoming citizens.

When I asked Hillary Clinton about that, she said she'd noticed it too and added, "During the 1990s, I cannot remember being asked about immigration... Why? Because the economy was working... And average Americans didn't have to go around looking for someone to blame."... (Hillary gets it!)
Huckabee is likely to suffer for refusing to demagogue immigration. He is already in trouble for offering college scholarships to deserving children of illegal immigrants in Arkansas. "We never should grind our heel in the face of a child," he has said. But if a nativist revolt is brewing, his fellow Republicans are handing out the pitchforks. Peripheral candidates like Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter set the slime flowing in the presidential campaign.

71 comments:

patriot said...

So Americans don't have the right to be angry about an illegal invasion of their country? How so? The anger isn't directed at legal immigrants. I say the more anger that loyal Americans display in this illegal immmigration farce, the closer we will be to taking our country back for American citizens AND legal immigrants. It is imperative that we keep the anger up as our whole country is at stake here. What could be more important than that?

dianne said...

Huckabee is not "likely" to suffer. He "will" suffer for his position on illegal immigration, just as McCain did. Not too much was known about Huckabee until recently. He sounded like a breath of fresh air to people who weren't too happy with the top tier Republican candidates. His poll ratings went way up, but now that he's become more well known and made his position on illegal immigrants known, he will take a dive just like McCain did.

I don't know why some find it surprising that Americans are mad as hell. The fact is Americans have been lied to over and over again and they're sick of it. Still we have no fence. Still we have no employer enforcement. And the illegal immigrants continue to pour across the border by the millions. The l986 immigration law did nothing to stop illegal immigration. Yes, we're mad, mad at our own government, mad at the greedy employers, and mad at the illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, steal identities, commit crimes and burden the social service system.

Does the economy have anything to do with it? Yes, it does. But in fact I believe what has happened is that the illegal immigrant population has reached critical mass. Everyone is affected. If you're rich, it doesn't matter cause you'll just go on being rich, put your kids in private schools, live in gated communities, etc. But, the middle class guy and the poor guy, well, they do care and rightfully so. Just today there is an article in the Kansas City Star about how illegal immigration from Latin American countries is intensifying the gang activity in the city. Whole neighborhoods are being threatened because of the Mexican drug trade and the problem has become so overwhelming, the police can't keep up with it. This may have been the story in LA for years, but now it's in the heartland, now its everywhere, and now the anger is also everywhere.

ultima said...

"The intensity of the immigration issue," he said immediately, and then added, "I honestly don't know why it's gotten so hot."...Huckabee.

Whew,this guy is dumber than I thought. I better send him a copy of "Mexifornia: A State of Becoming" to set him straight. He obviously has led a sheltered life or is being completely disingenuous on this issue. He badly needs an education on this issue and soon.

ultima said...

"a heavily muscled young man with closely cropped hair began to shout about "open borders" as the issue "that will destroy this country ... You can't imagine the amount of anger your average European Christian American feels about the multicultural tower of Babel." He raised the possibility of "civil war." McCain usually turns warrior when confronted with such blatant racism, but sensing the heat in the room, he held his fire this time, calmly saying "I will do everything in my power to secure our borders... But on the larger issue you raise, I believe that people who have come here [legally] from other countries... are our greatest strength."

This is interesting. I don't see anything racist about being one of those who is of European descent and sees his country being given away by obtuse politicians and subverted by citizens who profess some form of quasi-loyalty but whose actions and writings speak louder to the contrary.

McCain still doesn't get it, does he? He insults us all by saying that immigrants are our greatest strength. Don't natives count for anything in his mind. He wasn't an immigrant and he was one of those of greatest strength in the Viet Nam war. What is he thinking? Has he finally lost it altogether?

The young man was correct: open borders and the tower of babel will destroy this country and in fact the destruction is already well underway, especially in Mexifornia but elsewhere as well. He was obviously frustrated by the failure of our politicians to take their collective heads out of the sand and do what's right for America. Open borders is not it. More immigrants is not it. The tower of babel is not it.

ultima said...

"When I asked Hillary Clinton about that, she said she'd noticed it too and added, "During the 1990s, I cannot remember being asked about immigration... Why? Because the economy was working... And average Americans didn't have to go around looking for someone to blame."...

I guess Hillary thinks the dot.com bubble was normal economic development. She needs to talk to a few 401k investors and other investors who lost their shirts in the 1990s. She seems to be advocating a repeat of that fiasco.

(Hillary still doesn't get
it! And neither do her supporters if they swallow that line.)"

Dee said...

Dianne,
The Drug Trafficking Problem and the Gang Problem are homegrown American Problems.

The inner city has suffered with this for decades and it has expanded to the suburbs.

On 60 minutes last night, they had a segment on 1 laptop per child. There were a number of impoverished nations spotlighted. While they may be overwhelmed with poverty and no new technology, do you know what they didn´t have? They didn´t have drugs. They didn´t have gangs. They didn´t have crime.

Heroine, Cocaine, Meth. The USA is in the Top 3 of Drug Abusing countries in the world. Meth was homegrown here until we outlawed Sudafed products required proof of identity for purchase. Now we import it and our Drug Dealers import it from Mexico.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants are neither drug dealers nor gang members. This doesn´t happen until they assimilate into Americans, into the 2nd or 3rd generation.

We cannot blame our drug or gang or poverty problems on anyone else but ourselves.

Dee said...

Ulty,
"None are so blind as those who will not see."


Ulty´s quote:
"This is interesting. I don't see anything racist..."

patriot said...

There are a lot of youtube videos out there showing angry pro-illegals and reconquistas. They would be good candidates for an anger management class. Go save them, dee.

patriot said...

There is nothing racist about wanting our immigration laws enforced and our borders secured. As far as the Tower of Babel remark, what do you expect when you have millions of illegal aliens in our country? We would have no Tower of Babel without illegal immigration and Tower of Babel is not condusive to a cohesive society.

Liquidmicro said...

There's not one Presidential Candidate that is there for the working class. They all do nothing more than pander for votes. They have little power to change anything, and there only responsibility is to sign laws that come from the House and the Senate. All and any changes are going to come from Congress, not from the President. Besides, none of the candidates, GET IT!! None of them have layed out a plan worth voting for.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Who is your candidate?

Liquidmicro said...

So far, NONE. I'll write my own name in the blank spot on the ballot for a write in.

patriot said...

lol, that will make two votes you would get, liquid. Yours and mine.
Well you might get Ultimas too.

dianne said...

Sudafed was just removed from the market a couple of years ago. Mexican drug gangs were in full force years before that. But, I do agree, there is no drug trade if there are no customers. Does that make it better? No it doesn't. I also don't blame all illegal immigrants for the problem. I said they were adding to the problem and to that there is no doubt. And, that is only one example of problems.

Dee, you say I rely on the media. How about this. My little town of 5,000 hasn't had a murder in as long as I can remember and I've lived here since 1978. We had one this year. A person of Latino descent ran over and killed his girlfriend, also of Latino descent. I say that because I don't know if they were citizens or not, but I can tell you this. He was 19 years old and driving a Cadillac Escapade. I can't afford such a vehicle and I've done pretty well these 60 years on this earth. Where did he get such money...you and I both know it must have involved drugs. He has been charged with murder. He had a previous record and prison time for leaving the scene of an accident where someone else was hurt and also one for assault.

This in my little town where nothing ever happens, until now with a very fast influx of Latin American immigrants. I also with my own eyes have seen guys with those unmistakable gang tatoos all over themselves at the local fast food joints and grocery store. You may laugh being from a big city and state where such things are so common they are practically not noticeable, but it scared the crap out of me.

I'm being honest here. Fire away as you will, but this is where I live and this is not what I want to see happening.

dianne said...

Forgot to mention the guy in my story is only 19, already having spent a couple of years in jail. His girlfriend was only 17. A Cadillac Escalade costs over $50,000.

ultima said...

"The Drug Trafficking Problem and the Gang Problem are homegrown American Problems."

Hmmmm! Just when I had finally figured out where opium poppies and coca plants are grown and what countries have the most drug exporters who can't operate without their gangs to protect them. Homegrown -- nonsense! It's all grown south of the border or in Asia.

ultima said...

"On 60 minutes last night, they had a segment on 1 laptop per child. There were a number of impoverished nations spotlighted. While they may be overwhelmed with poverty and no new technology, do you know what they didn´t have? They didn´t have drugs. They didn´t have gangs. They didn´t have crime."

What in the world will such a child do with a laptop as opposed to a loaf of bread? These are the folks we are importing by the millions bringing with them their poverty, slowly but inevitably converting our country to a third world country. If, and that is a big if,they don't use drugs, it is only because they can't afford them and the drug lords make sure the drugs are exported to those who can. If you believe that they don't have any crime, you are incredibly naive. Even in the muslim countries there is crime even though punishment is quick and severe.

ultima said...

What percentage of the most wanted in your city have Spanish surnames?

ultima said...

""None are so blind as those who will not see."

A quote I have often used myself to describe the entire Pro-illegal movement. They trot out the racist term every time anyone seeks to defend his country from the encroachment of the destructive forces of immigration and illegal aliens aided and abetted by the pro-illegals. Yet, nothing is said about the overt racism of MEChA and LaRaza. Pot kettle black!

ultima said...

"The vast majority of illegal immigrants are neither drug dealers nor gang members. This doesn´t happen until they assimilate into Americans, into the 2nd or 3rd generation."

I.m not sure you can blame this on assimilation per se because if they truly assimilated they would be more like you and me. Instead, they shun the hard work their parents did, fail to complete high school, largely fail to bachelors degrees, largely fail to do anything productive, become indolent leading to gang membership and drug dealing.

In fact the female 2nd generation does much better than the male 2nd generation in this regard. So what is it about assimilation that causes one sex to go astray while the other prospers and often provides the family's sole legal support?

Racism has been a factor in the Mexican experience. That is indisputable just as it is in the lives of others who have been punished solely because of the their race. The words gringo, whitey and honky come to mind.

That this racism in the present world of integration, intermarriage, and government subsidy still largely explains the disappointment and failure of millions of aliens is patently false. The successes of dark-skinned Punjabis,arabs, and Asians give the lie to this frequent accusation of racism.

No Americans of whatever race want out but most assuredly millions of Mexico want in to the United States--a stark truth that cuts through all the nonsense about race and immigration that emanates from both sides of the border.

And it is the ultimate of delusions if one thinks that a continued flow of millions of Mexicans and other illegal and legal immigrants will not change America for the worse in the long run. The idea of a multi-cultural society living in the bliss and harmony of diversity is appalling wrong. The best we can do is tolerate each other. Unity of purpose and culture and language is condemned to fail. As that begins to happen the pro-illegals will have occasion to regret their hearty endorsement of what they consider to be the benign presence of so many who in the second generation have already lost the hardworking productive habits of their parents in favor of gangs and drugs.

Dee said...

Dianne,
You are honest and telling us what you see.
The problem is you are being influenced by the media.
They instilled fear in you.
You believe any Hispanic you see may be a criminal illeeeegal alien.
Millions of people have tattoos. I see so many kids at the malls with them and ear and nose and mouth and forehead and bellybutton piercings. That is scary to me, especially the ones with the skinheads.

Every day on TV I see this White Cop from IL who they say murdered his wives. Should I be afraid of all White Cops? Or what about Gacy - should I be afraid of all White Clowns? Or Scott Peterson - Should I be afraid of all White Fertilizer Salesmen?

Dee said...

Dianne, We have close to 50M Hispanic Citizens and many of us are affluent and spread our affluence to our children and some of them have tattoos. Yes, we let them drive our fancy cars.

Dee said...

Ultima,
Are you denying that the drug users are responsible for their own addictions or do you want to blame someone else?

(Enabler, thy name is Ulty?)

ultima said...

Rarely now do southwesterners express confidence in our culture or a willingness to defend the larger values of Western civilization. Instead, some of us are more than willing to accept the illegal aliens in our midst regardless of the cost to our culture, sovereignty, and national interest. The result is that our public schools are either apathetic about, or outright hostile to the Western paradigm even as millions from the south are voting with their feet and their lives to enjoy what we so smugly dismiss. Our elites do not understand just how rare consensual government is in the history of civilization. They wrongly think that we can instill confidence by praising the less successful cultures that aliens are escaping, rather than explaining the dynamism and morality of the civilization our newcomers have pledged to join.

And those who think culture doesn't matter should contemplate the recent experience of an English school teacher in the Sudan who allowed her students to name a teddy bear Mohammed.

Perhaps the best measure of culture is the kind of life it has been able to create for its people. When it fails in this primary task as it has in much of the non-Western world, that speaks loudly about the nature and virtues of those cultures. But, of course, some will just say this is racism -- none are so blind...

Dee said...

What percentage of the criminal sexual predators are middle aged white guys ulty?

How about wife murderers?
Ala Peterson or Peterson

Ulty´s comments:
What percentage of the most wanted in your city have Spanish surnames?

Anonymous said...

How many illegal aliens have Spanish surnames?

Dee said...

Ulty,
You are right in saying there are cultural issues at work here. Ruben Navarette just posted a great article. I will be posting it soon.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Regarding your quote below, when I was on Borjas, they discussed a 20 year study completed and the results indicated your statement applied for African Americans. The answer: inherent racism in our society. This includes the lack of mentors, legacies, racial profiling and targeting. It is more difficult for a minority with the same education to receive the same opportunities as a non minority.

Of course there is success by some minorities, but one peak at the list of CEOs in major corporations tells you the true story of the existence of the glass ceilings and ivory tower.



Ultima said:
“In fact the female 2nd generation does much better than the male 2nd generation in this regard. So what is it about assimilation that causes one sex to go astray while the other prospers and often provides the family's sole legal support?”

patriot said...

diane, not to butt in here but aren't you just amazed how dee tells you what you are thinking and feeling even if you haven't expressed it as such?

For example, she tells you that you are being influenced by the media and they are making you fear. Did you ever say that? NO, I never heard you say that. You see dee thinks that Americans opposed to illegal immigration are incapable of thinking for themselves. According to dee, if not for the media, we wouldn't even think about illegal immigration even though it is in our face everyday, lol.

Another example, I never heard you say that you believe that every illegal alien or legal Hispanic is a die hard criminal either, yet dee projects that on you as if you had said that.

Those are her tactics, dianne. She constantly projects thoughts and feelings on the anti's (at least the ones in this blog) that they have neither stated nor implied. As if millions and millions of illegal aliens in our country isn't enough on it's own to instill justified fear and anger in us. Oh no, we must have been influenced by the media, lol.

Another example, if we say anything negative about the illegals (factual stuff) then she will claim that we are against all Hispanics, not just the illegals. Race card alert!

It's a wonder that any of us stick around to listen to her constant lies and nonsense. I do it only because it makes me even more determined to fight the invasion and expose their enablers for what they are.

Dee said...

OMG Pat, I am proud of you.
Did your psychologist recommend a psycho babble book so you could learn what terms like "project" mean?

You know I believe that reading is fundamental and it is very good you read such books and learn new terminology.

Also, I recommend you read books about the History of Immigration in our country so you understand the issues we are discussing.

ultima said...

"inherent racism in our society. This includes the lack of mentors, legacies, racial profiling and targeting. It is more difficult for a minority with the same education to receive the same opportunities as a non minority."

Then why is it Asians, Punjabis, female Mexicans, etc. do well but others don't? I think the answer is more likely to be the PC teaching today and the Chicano studies departments who divert Mexicans from the path to success and Western values and instead instill victimology as a way of life. Instead of teaching that you can accomplish whatever you set out to do with a work ethic and dedication, the schools at all levels now teach multi-culturalism and diversity and that their status in life is not their fault, it is the gringo's fault. How did you get your education and your job was it because you spent all your time thinking about how you had been discriminated against and that you were a victim that someone owed a living to? I don't think so. Western culture and work ethic should be restored to our currricula. It serves minorities better than what they otherwise have.

ultima said...

"a heavily muscled young man with closely cropped hair"

Compared to what: the bare naval tarts in high school, the dudes with the slouch and low hung trousers, the zoot suiters, the pimply-faced drugies and drug-dealers? Which would you rather have your daughter date?

How well does that describe your husband when you met him?

ultima said...

""None are so blind as those who will not see."

Such a great divide in perception! How can it ever be bridged?

The basic problem here is all the boogiemen the pro-illegals see around every corner, on TV, etc.

While at the same time they dismiss the real boogiemen hanging out on the street corner selling drugs or just hanging as indolent non-workers surviving on aid to dependent children of illegals.

patriot said...

Project, dee? I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

I know all about the history of immigration. Are you going to start that same crap all over again? It doesn't matter what our immigration history was. What counts is what our laws today are and that is all. Your "history of immigration" babble is one of the lamest arguments I have ever heard defending illegal immigration today and not enforcing our laws today. Please don't regurgitate that same old vomit again. It is totally irrelevant in today's world.

ultima said...

"Are you denying that the drug users are responsible for their own addictions or do you want to blame someone else?"

Of course, drug users are also cupable. I suspect that's why the drug dealers like to catch them when they are young, when their brains aren't fully developed and when they are most vulnerable to peer pressures and may be in revolt against too much parental control. I guess you can blame the child or your can blame the drug dealer or you can apportion the blame between them but I believe the child is being taken advantage of in this situation.

ultima said...

"What percentage of the criminal sexual predators are middle aged white guys ulty?

How about wife murderers?
Ala Peterson or Peterson"

I don't know. If you have some official stats, publish them. I do know that in macho Mexico women are not treated as well generally as they are in the U.S.. That suggests without any evidence to support it that an uppity American woman who marries a Mexican man, may be in for a rough time of it. And then there is OJ to consider.

ultima said...

"Of course there is success by some minorities, but one peak at the list of CEOs in major corporations tells you the true story of the existence of the glass ceilings and ivory tower."

There may some element of truth in this but, on the other hand, perhaps it has more to do with those who have been willing to do whatever is necessary to get a good education--like wash dishes, wait tables, bus, do farm work, etc. I think there are too many who think they should be CEOs without jumping through the education hoop and what it takes to get there.

Dee said...

Ulty,
How did I get my Education and succeed? If you read my book you would know.

Resilience. My Dad always taught me no matter how many times you get knocked down, you have to get back up. What is difficult for many minorities to understand is there are no mentors or free passes for us (like you get) and there are many landmines along the way.

It is just like Eddie Murphy says in his video.

Ulty´s Comment:
How did you get your education and your job was it because you spent all your time thinking about how you had been discriminated against and that you were a victim that someone owed a living to?

Dee said...

Pat,
The truth is out. You don´t read your own posts.

Pat´s quote:
"yet dee PROJECTs that on you as if you had said that.
....She constantly PROJECTs thoughts"

Dee said...

patriot said...
Project, dee? I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Dee said...

Ulty, I find it interesting you don´t blame the parents.

Ulty said:
"Of course, drug users are also cupable. I suspect that's why the drug dealers like to catch them when they are young, when their brains aren't fully developed and when they are most vulnerable to peer pressures and may be in revolt against too much parental control."

Dee said...

Ulty,
Why are you not chastising Drew Peterson.

Or Scott Peterson

dianne said...

Went Christmas shopping today and had dinner with my daughter and family. Been thinking. This is the month for celebrating Christ's birth and family happiness. This is the month when little kids' eyes shine. I don't want to debate illegal immigration this month, pros, cons, any of it.

I may check in from time to time but my heart is in other places this month.

I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas and so much fun and all other good things.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Ulty,
How did I get my Education and succeed? If you read my book you would know.

Resilience. My Dad always taught me no matter how many times you get knocked down, you have to get back up. What is difficult for many minorities to understand is there are no mentors or free passes for us (like you get) and there are many landmines along the way.



I beg to differ. E.O.E. works real well for your cause. Instead of the job going to the best and/or most qualified, it must goto a minority, for lack there of in the positions.

Liquidmicro said...

Back at you, Diane.

patriot said...

dee, sorry I thought you meant "projects" as in a work project. I didn't make the connection between my stating "projects" as in what you do with claiming certain things about people with nothing to back it up with. It's been a long day and I am tired.

Dee said...

Happy Holidays Dianne.
Peace to you!

Dee said...

Liquid,
I don´t know of anyone that ever advanced on EEO or AA plans. You may believe it applies for various entry level positions, but not for advancement.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, you may deny that this exists, however it happens daily.

Affirmative Action: Steps taken by an employer which contribute toward greater employment opportunities for minorities, females, the elderly, and the disabled. In federal employment, extra effort must be made to include qualified women, minorities, employees over 40, and the disabled at grade levels and in job categories where they are under represented.


States and Federal Gov't also mandate many private contracts be held for minority owned companies, even if there costs for the job exceed that of a non-minority company. Spending, in some cases, more than needed just so that a minority company gets a contract.

If you deny all of this, you really are Dilbert.

Liquidmicro said...

And yes, it does include advancement. The last sentence is the kicker: In federal employment, extra effort must be made to include qualified women, minorities, employees over 40, and the disabled at grade levels and in job categories where they are under represented.

Liquidmicro said...

Bakke Case

Bakke and Reverse Discrimination

By the late '70s, however, flaws in the policy began to show up amid its good intentions. Reverse discrimination became an issue, epitomized by the famous Bakke case in 1978. Allan Bakke, a white male, had been rejected two years in a row by a medical school that had accepted less qualified minority applicants-the school had a separate admissions policy for minorities and reserved 16 out of 100 places for minority students. The Supreme Court outlawed inflexible quota systems in affirmative action programs, which in this case had unfairly discriminated against a white applicant.

Liquidmicro said...

Affirmative Action requires the employer to do more than ensure employment neutrality with regard to race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. As the phrase implies, affirmative action requires the employer to make additional efforts to recruit, hire, and promote qualified members of groups formerly excluded, even if that exclusion cannot be traced to particular discriminatory actions on the part of the employer. The premise of the affirmative action concept is that unless positive steps are undertaken to overcome the effects of unintentional discrimination, a benign neutrality in employment practices will tend to perpetuate the status quo indefinitely.

Anonymous said...

I am for "compassionate deportation"

Evidence from US history has shown that all people can be assimilated in to the American mainstream IF THERE IS A SMALL ENOUGH FLOW AND IF THERE IS ENOUGH TIME TO ASSIMILATE THEM

When German speakers came over in the 1700's Ben Franklin freaked out and was worried that the US would wind up as a german speaking nation. What happened was that the immigration from Germany slowed to a trickle and they were assimilated.

The US can be a great home to every single latino that is here legally. The US is capable of absorbing all of them.

In 100 years their grandchildren will all be speaking English. All will be in the middle class, and the overall standard of living will rise to a level where the middle class will have lots of luxuries.

Things can work really well for the latinos now in the US legally. But only if the ones here illegally leave. That is why i am for compassionate deportation.

After we achieve compassionate deportation, why not invite the best and the brightest of the latin nations to move to the USA? Wouldn't it be nice to have a latino bill gates or two here?

The US depends on the best and the brightest from around the world moving here legally. With super smart people of all races living here, all making huge ammts of money inventing things and exporting them to the rest of the world, we all benefit.

Why is this such a hard concept? If you allow in a million super smart immigrants who make $400k per year, they pay a ton of taxes and use few public services. All of America benefits.

If you allow in a million wonderful hardworking ethical (but illiterate) illegals they make less than $40k per year, pay little in taxes and use a lot of public services.

How is it racist for me to say that i want to import in to the US super smart and super educated latinos who will make $400k per year and not import in to the US illegals who will make less than $40k

Think about the labor market effects of having millions of super smart super educated latinos here in the US - they could create jobs for the illiterates born in the US rather than competing with them.

The issue in my mind is not how many immigrants, but which immigrants. The issue is not what is the race of the immigrants but what is the economic status of the immigrants.

I look forward to a day when the average latino immigrant to the US is smarter, better educated, and earning much more money than the average person born in the US. That is not a racist point of view

Dee said...

Anon,
None of the 50M Hispanic citizens, or as you say, those here legally, are going anywhere. We are Americans. We are part of the fabric of America. Many of us have been here hundreds of years.

When I think of success for America and for Hispanics, I look at my children, nieces and nephews and now my grandchildren.

I am so proud that they are a part of my family and I had something to do with bringing so many gifted and talented people into the world. Some are in business, some in the military, many in college, right now, today. One of my nephews is on a sabbaticle, travelling abroad in Europe.

When I think back, I think of my Dad. I think of all of us being migrant laborers. We were no different than so many other poor migrant workers you see today.

The difference? My Dad was right. Education! Religion. Discipline. Speaking English. All of his lessons, so ingrained in each of us. We lived them and passed these same values on to our children. We owe all this to our parents and to America for providing us the opportunity to achieve the American Dream.

You are right that the exploitation of workers must stop.

However, it is NOT about bringing the elite or master race into our country. It is about allowing immigrants the opportunity to come here legally, become Educated and help us continue to grow creatively and ambitiously in a way that helps not only our own country but the world.

patriot said...

anon, you seem to want to make immigration whether it be legal or illegal a latino issue. There are millions of immigrants all over the world who fit the catagory of the skilled and unskilled worker. I say give all of those that we "need" a chance, not just latinos.

dee, why do you say that we Hispanic citizens aren't going anywhere and here to stay? Who said otherwise? This is about illegals not citizens.

Dee said...

Just for clarity Pat.
Anon said, "Things can work really well for the latinos now in the US legally."

And I just clarified we weren´t going anywhere.
:-)

Anonymous said...

I am for "compassionate deportation"

When i wrote "things can go well for the latinos now in the usa "

What i meant was that with super smart super educated latinos coming in to the usa, the latino group will be better integrated in to the mainstream of american society.

the wealthier latinos get the better it is for everyone - latino and non latino alike

i don't want a poor latino underclass. immigration of poor latinos means that we have an underclass for at least a generation or two. I don't want that.

I want wealthy successful latinos. people may disagree with me, but it certainly isn't racism to want this

Anonymous said...

Let me expand on why i want "compassionate deportation"

Has anyone reading this ever been to Denmark? Denmark is a nation where most citizens really care about their fellow citizens. They have great social services. If you are born blind or otherwise handicapped you are well taken care of.

When Denmark was invaded by the Nazis, And the Nazis ordered the country to hand over its jewish citizens for extermination, the Danes came together and arranged for almost all the jews to be smuggled out of the country.

My point is, in general Denmark is not a racist place.

In Denmark, the number of poor people is small. The good generous folks in Denmark can afford to spend tons of money on each poor person, trying to send their kids to high quality schools, give them great health care, give them job training.

Part of the reason that Denmark has such good social services for the poor is because there are relatively few poor people.

I mean, a country has a limited ammt of money to spend on the poor. If the country imports millions of poor people, the number of poor people grows and the money available to help the poor is divided among more and more people.

Denmark tries hard to allow no one to move to Denmark who will wind up poor. As a result, very few people move to Denmark and wind up poor.

Let's contrast that with the USA. There are all sorts of powerful groups that try to persuade poor people to move to the USA. These poor people move to the USA. The limited budget available to help the poor is split among a greater and greater number of poor people and as a results, the public services given to the poor, the quality of their free medical care, the quality of the schools they send their kids to, all of that goes down

It is just obvious to me that anyone who wants to help the quality of life of the poor people now living in the USA should be in favor of zero immigration of people who will move to the USA and wind up poor.

If your loyalty is to the american citizens who are poor and dependent on government help, then it is obvious that you should be against all unskilled immigration.

Now, let's say that your loyalty is to the unskilled working citizens of the USA. Let's say you don't care about the people that live on government help - you just care about the kid who academically couldn't make it through high school that had to drop out and work at McDonalds. Well, immigration of the unskilled hurts the unskilled US workers by driving down wages.

So immigration of unskilled people hurts the group of american citizens that relies on government help and is not employed AND it also hurts the group of american citizens that has no skills - the people that are employed in low end unskilled jobs.

If you care about the most vulnerable members of American society, you should be against immigration of the unskilled.

Again i say, let's bring in people of all races, people of all cultures who will arrive in America and immediately start making tons of money and paying high taxes. Use the tax dollars to support programs that help the poor folks living in the USA.

This is why i believe that compassionate deportation is the right position for progressives to take. If you care about the poorest and most downtrodden US citizens, deportation is one way to help them.

I can fully understand why greedy rich folks want to amnesty all the undocumented. Especially in Phoenix right now, greedy rich folks need to pay more and more money to their housekeepers, gardeners and nannies now that the new law has reduced the supply. An amnesty hurts the rich.

Take another look at Denmark. The poor have it pretty good there, and they only have it good because they have the right immigration policy

Anonymous said...

Dee, let me ask you a simple question.

Let's say that there are two brothers. both brothers are fine upstanding hard working salt of the earth type of guys.


Let's say that both brothers are 40 years old.

identical twin brothers were born in a nation other than the USA. Let's not specify what nation that is.
could be a spanish speaking nation, a European nation, an asian nation.

Both brothers never had the chance to graduate from high school. They both dropped out and joined the work force at the age of 16.

Both of them are all around great people but with their lack of skills they never made it far in the work force.

One of them is a US citizen who works at McDonalds making $20k per year.

The other one is not a US citizen - he lives in some other country. He applies to legally move to the USA. It is clear that with his skills he too will work at McDonalds and make $20k per year.

Let's say that both brothers are married and have four school age kids each.

Let's say that the brother that is a US citizen pays $5k per year in total taxes. The cost to society of sending his kids to school is $40k

Let's say that if the US lets the brother that is outside the US move here, society will collect $5k a year in taxes and pay $40k a year to educate his kids

Now multiply this by 100 million . There are 100 million people who are happy to work for McDonalds level wages and move to the USA and have their kids educated at taxpayer expense.

My position is, no way should the US let these hundred million people in.

many of the hundred milion people that want in are white, many are non white. So what. Saying that I don't want the 100 million allowed in doesn't make me a racist.

If we let the hundred million people in, poor folks who are US citizens find their hospitals filled up, the schools that their kids go to filled up.

With 100 million more poor people, things get noticably worse for the poor people that were US citizens.

Dee, I care about the 100 million poor folks that want to move here and get jobs (and their 400 million children who want to go to school here) I really care about them, I wish i could help all of them. But come on, there is just no way there is space for them.

Now the issue is, I am telling these 100 million workers and 400 million school age kids they can't come to the USA. What about the 12 million who came to the USA illegally? What about the 12 million who were told "no" you can't come and they came anyway?

How the heck is it fair to the 100 million who were told no who just accepted the no that the 12 million that cheated get ahead of them in line?

Dee, if you want to buy an island and set up your own country and invite 100 million low wage workers in and their 400 million school age kids, and you want to somehow pay for the schooling of all those kids out of your own pocket, god bless you.

But do not assume that you have the right to invite all those people in to the USA without consulting your fellow citizens!

Ask the poor folks who have to share a hospital with the undocumented that you want to give permanent US residency to. Those hospitals are getting pretty darn crowded. Ask the poor folks whose kids attend schools overcrowded with the children of the undocumented.

Deportation means better hospitals and better schools and more money for the poor folks born in the USA. It also means more of the poor folks born in the USA rise in to the middle class because McDonalds and all the other employers of the unskilled start to pay more.

With deportation, and zero immigration of the unskilled, there might not even be any poor people left in the USA in 50 years. Who the heck knows - we could turn out like Denmark with essentially no poverty

That is why i believe that being progressive, being for the poor of the USA is consistent with a massive compassionate deportation

Dee said...

Anon,
You know I like you and I appreciate the passion in everything you write.
I agree with you on some things, but not all.
By your guidelines, my family would have never come to America.
My father and mother were not college graduates.
We were migrant laborers. We harvested the crops in the field.
I come from the very people you say will never succeed in this country.
Yet my family and I are all intelligent, educated and successful.
Given the opportunity and the education, any new immigrant (legal or illegal) can assimilate and become successful in our society.
So when you say let´s limit the immigration to the Elite, Educated, I disagree.

Regarding Mass Deportation of the 12M and the 20M (including their families), I do not agree. However, I must say we do need to end the practice of sending families or anyone to the deplorable Detention Centers. If we must deport, then of course, Compassionate Deportation. Also, we should NOT staff contractors like Blackwater to support Border Security in any way.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

I said i am for compassionate deportation.

let's talk about my proposed policy of only allowing in to the USA people that are highly educated and can earn high incomes

Very few people in America today had ancestors that fit these criteria.

So by definition, if my policy had been in place for the past few hundred years, almost everyone now in America wouldn't be in America.

Put it another way, just about everyone in America today can trace their ancestry to someone in the past that came to the USA poor and unskilled.

From a gut emotional level, most Americans i don't think will agree with my idea of letting in the highly educated and highly paid people and not letting in the unskilled. My plan doesn't appeal to the emotions.

However, from a practical standpoint, there are 100 million unskilled workers that want to move to the USA. There is not space for all of them.

If America is going to take some of the 100 million unskilled in, who decides which one?

Dee, I respect you very very much - you are a very honest person. Let's say that America decided that it only had space for five million unskilled people and their kids, five million over the next ten years.

How would you select the five million? Would you take most of the five million from Mexico, would you have a lottery, what is the right method?

What i predict would happen is that each ethnic group in America would fight for its share of the quota. The irish people here would argue that we should allow mostly unskilled irish people - the polish would argue for mostly unskilled polish people, the chinese would argue for chinese.

There would be a competition among ethnic groups to get their people in.

You see where i am going with this? There just isn't room for all the unskilled people that want to come to the US. If anything my 100 million number is absurdly low.

there are billions and billions of people in the world whose standard of living would go way up by moving to the US.



But since i don't know of any way for rationing the spaces that would avoid severe inter ethnic conflict in the US, I remain in favor of ZERO immigration of the unskilled.

Dee, as i said, i think you are an honest person. If you have a method for rationing the number of spaces that we have for the unskilled, i certainly want to hear it.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

I am for a compassionate deportation.

I think most of America feels the same way i do. But so far most of America has been silent on this issue. The great mass of the American population is up for grabs.

The people you hear speaking loudly about immigration issues, on all sides, don't represent the broad middle.

I mean, I personally believe that a very large number of the loudest voices against immigration are racist. Be careful, there are an awful lot of people that just want to live in an all white neighborhood. Many of these people are on Vdare.

At the same time, many of the people loudly in favor of a "path to citizenship" really are only saying it out of ethnic solidarity. They don't really care what is best for their fellow american citizens, they only care about the fate of the people in their ethnic group who are here illegally.

Another group that is loudly in favor of mass immigration are the ones that really want to destroy the system. They think that by flooding the US with millions of poor hungry desperate people, they will prompt riots and uphevals that somehow tear down the corrupt capitalist system. This group just wants plenty of immigrants since they see the immigrants as a revolutionary force.

Be careful who you make common cause with. That is why i like posting here - you are on the other side of this issue from me but i know i can trust you to play it straight.

When i communicate with loud, outspoken antis, and i tell them up front that i like living in a country with visible minorities in positions of wealth and power, I like living in a neighborhood that is mixed by race, and that i don't care how "white" America is, it usually becomes clear that the leadership of many of the anti groups just doesn't agree with me. Again i call attention to Vdare which publishes negative things about all sorts of non white people, whether they are citizens or not. I have no illusions about the loud antis.

At the same time, whenever i am with the pro immigration folks and i explain that i want a USA where people from all racial groups rise up in to the upper middle class, and there are no more impoverished groups in the USA, it becomes clear that this is not on the agenda of the pro immigration folks. Somehow the folks in favor of immigration feel the need to have poor folks in the USA in order to provide jobs for social activists I guess.

I spend a lot of my time among people with progressive politics, and I can't tell you how many times i made my argument, in private to someone that ending illegal immigration would raise the wages of nannies and housekeepers, and had the nominally progressive person i was talking to confide in me that they know what i am saying to be true, and they are only able to afford a nanny or housekeeper due to the large number of illegal immigrants.

It was actually explained to me a few times that many middle class white feminists consider illegal immigration to be a feminist issue since many white feminist women could not work professional jobs without the existence of illegal nannies.


When i express a vision for an America where nannies and housekeepers make twice as much money as they do now, a vision that can only come about with an end to unskilled immigration, trust me when i say that this idea is not popular among the elites of any party. It is only popular among the unskilled people who are here legally.

Dee, all i am saying is, look over your shoulder and make sure you know who your allies are when you call for a path to citizenship. You might find some of the people on your side have pretty unsavory motives

Sometimes people, on both sides of this debate, have motivations that are not what they claim.

patriot said...

Wait a minute, dee. I thought you said both your mother and father were born here and that your family has been here for hundreds of years. What do you mean then by your remark to anon that using his guidelines your family would have never come here? Something is amiss here.

patriot said...

You got some explaining to do dee. I just re-read your families history again and you claim that your parents and their parents and their parents were all born in this country. Again, how do you explain your remark to anon, "by your guidelines my family would never have come to America"?

Dee said...

Anon, I appreciate your honesty and passion for your view.
While I agree in regards to deportation if it does occur, it must be compassionate. However I disagree with Mass Deportation of 12M people. I think, given our history of Immigration in our country, we need a path to citizenship especially for those that have been here over 5 years. We do need to secure borders and ensure all employers are sanctioned if they do not enforce the law.

Dee said...

Pat, Pat, Pat,
Read my book. My family has been here 200 years, much longer than yours.
However, I used an analogy. My parents were migrants. Anon was talking about only allowing Educated Elites in as Immigrants.

You get it now? If not, please re read.

patriot said...

dee, dee, dee, the fact that your parents were migrant farm workers doesn't make any difference. If your family goes back for 200 years in this country and were all citizens when did immigration by your family come into play? Our country only goes back a little over 200 years.

Why do you keep saying that your family has been here longer than mine? How do you know that and what difference does it make? Are you tying to claim that you and your family belongs here more than mine? It sounds snide and arrogant.

Dee said...

Pat, You are so funny.
Here. Maybe this will help you:

Analogy: Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

I am for compassionate deportation.


How many unskilled people around the world want to come to the USA?

How many new unskilled immigrants a year should be legally allowed in to the USA?

Don't name a number, but give me some very rough idea what your thinking is about these two numbers.

I think the huge divergence between the two numbers argues that there has to be some sort of program for preventing immigration of those that apply and are rejected.

And for the millions that are rejected and choose to sneak in, in the next few years, there has to be a program to deport them.

Forget for a minute about the 12 million that are already here, be blunt about how you feel about what you personally think should be done with the millions that sneak in over the next few years.

After you answer that, answer me this - how many do you want moving in to your school district - Forget about the ethnicity of the people, forget about what language they speak, assume for a minute that they are the finest, nicest most upstanding folks. Just think for a minute that they will pay $5 thousand in taxes and cost your school district $40 thousand a family. Do the math - how many do you want in your district?

Pull out a calculator. Do some numbers for me.

I humbly submit that you and the other fine taxpayers in your district just can't afford to pay to educate a massive influx of children whose parents are not paying as much in taxes as you are.

Obviously, if enough unskilled immigrants move to your district the schools will run out of money and every kid in public schools will get a terrible education.

So pull out the calculator - explain to me how the numbers work

ultima said...

Huckabee is likely to suffer because of his inability to see how immigration threatens the American way of life and the very foundations of our country. He is, as he well should be, already in trouble for offering college scholarships to undeserving children of illegal immigrants in Arkansas. But if a nativist revolt is brewing, at least some of his fellow Republicans recognize the seriousness of this issue while all the ostriches bury their heads in the sand. Peripheral candidates like Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter and a few others are the only ones who understand the problem and are willing to speak out about it. The pandering of all the other candidates is shameful. They are willing to sell their souls and sell out their country for a few Latino votes without a second thought for the future of America. Kudos to Tancredo and Hunter. Time will prove them to be correct. A real historian will write of this as a time when something could have been done and Democrats and Republicans like failed in their duties and condemned our country to be Mexico Norte.

Anonymous said...

I'm a mexican american girl or a chicana as one would say i was born here in EAST LA from mexican american parents who immigrated to the US they're both citizens now..I'm 17 the future of this so called country...i realize that WE as HISPANICS do make our mistakes but we are not responsible for everything either...we come here to make an honest living to escape from the corruption in our own government but most importanly the poverty...i don't see you white people complainin when were making ure food, cleaning your houses or picking up after you guys...you guys don't complain then....I'm not saying its ok to immigrate illegally but we have no other choice...even when we do half the poeople who tried to make it to the US die....we come here to make a living....when we come over here the first thing we do is look for a job it probably wont be a good one but its a job at least....i see tons of white people with a freaking sign saying they need money...theyre citizens they have papers why won't they look for jobs...not even us that we don't and we finda way to make a living even if its cleaning restrooms or picking grapes or even selling flowers in the streets...were making money to support the famalies we have in mexico....all you guys see is the good side of mexico the rich side...you guys don't see the real towns where theres no electricity...kids don't have much to eat they're even walking barefoot because they can't afford nice shoes...being afraid of their own police..you guys have no idea how it is you only see the nice side but never the bad side...i wish you guys could be put in our shoes and being harrased just because were trying to make it...this country i supposed to give us freedom the right to speak...well we are and all we get is being shut down by people who think they are better than us because were all EQUAL doen'st matter ure race or the color of your skin...we're all making or tyring to make and honest living...if thats so bad then i don't know whats right

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