Monday, December 24, 2007

Experts Predict Arizona "OUT OF BUSINESS!"

MSNBC is reporting:
Experts predict employer sanctions will hurt AZ
By PAUL GIBLIN TRIBUNE
Sun., Dec. 23, 2007
A quick glance at the masons who work for Rhino Masonry in Mesa reveals an interesting quirk about the company's work force - nearly every block layer on the payroll is Hispanic. Business owner Robert Ahlers said he's comfortable with his company's demographics. It simply reflects those of the region's construction industry in general, he said. However, he has no idea what impact the state's stringent new employer sanctions law will have on his company next month. "I don't know if come Jan. 1, when this goes into effect, I'm going to wake up on a Monday morning and half the people working for me are going to be gone," Ahlers said.
Hispanic workers elsewhere have been walking off their jobs in anticipation of the Legal Arizona Workers Act taking effect New Year's Day. The law is intended to change the way Arizona companies conduct business. Specifically, it's intended to prompt business owners to purge illegal immigrants from their payrolls. Businesses knowingly employing illegal immigrants face corporate death penalties. The first offense can result in a 10-day suspension of a company's business license. The second offense can mean loss of the business license altogether. The law is widely viewed as the toughest of more than 100 passed by states and municipalities nationwide since the summer to crack down on illegal immigration.
...
Business owners are changing the way they hire, moving to an electronic, federal system called E-Verify, which checks job applicants' Social Security numbers to confirm their employment eligibility. Also, an uncounted number of illegal immigrants living and working in Arizona are moving to other states or back to Mexico to avoid detection, according to Hispanic community leaders.

However, the law also is causing Arizona is lose its appeal among business investors, according to business leaders. Arizona clearly is dependent on immigrant labor. Of the state's nearly 2.5 million workers, close to 300,000 are not U.S. citizens, according to a University of Arizona study released in October. That equates to more than 10 percent of the total work force.
Ahlers is worried about maintaining his own work force at Rhino Masonry, 722 W. McLellan Road in Mesa. The company typically employs between 50 to 100 at between $15 to $25 an hour, plus benefits. Ahlers always has been careful to check documents for new hires, and believes every employee on his payroll is eligible to work in the United States. Still, the new employer sanctions law is forcing him to act like an immigration agent, he said. "It's making me mad, because I object to having to do someone else's job for them," he said. "The federal government has failed miserably to do their job - or we wouldn't have a bunch of illegals wandering around our country. "Now our government says, 'Look employers, you've got to fix it because we can't. You've got to do extra work. You've got to do things. If you don't do it, we're going to fine you or put you out of business,'" Ahlers said.

GRAY AREAS IN LAW
There's widespread misunderstanding among business operators over the new law, said labor attorney Julie A. Pace, who has lectured at more than 50 seminars about the topic since July. "Some have been paying attention and some understand different things about the law. I think many feel it's unconstitutional and are waiting for the court to rule. Others are not familiar with it at all," she said. To make matters worse, the law is filled with ambiguities and is subject to different interpretations, said Pace, of the Phoenix law firm Ballard Spahr Andrews & Ingersoll. For example, no one has ruled definitively how the law will be applied to franchised businesses. If violations are discovered at a single location of a statewide chain of gas stations, restaurants, banks or department stores, does that mean every outlet statewide will be shut down, leading to hundreds of layoffs? Pace is operating under the legal assumption the entire chain can be closed. "Everybody loses their jobs," she said. With that in mind, business owners statewide are rushing to restructure their business operations, making each location a separate corporate entity. Also, some business owners are postponing Arizona expansion plans while waiting to see how the law will be enforced. "A lot of clients of ours have already moved their operations out of state for any expansion," Pace said. "They're not going to open any businesses here."

TROUBLE ON THE FARM
The law already is cutting into Arizona's agricultural industry, which employs the state's highest percentage of noncitizen workers. "We already were having problems getting workers," said Joe Sigg, director of government relations for the Arizona Farm Bureau Federation, a nonprofit association of 3,000 agriculture-related businesses. The impact is twofold: Immigrant workers without documentation are leaving to avoid deportation, and immigrant workers with documentation are relocating because they fear discrimination.
Consumers nationwide could see the impact as early as next month. Nearly all of the country's supply of iceberg lettuce from November through March is grown in and around Yuma, just north of the U.S.-Mexico border. The harvest requires 50,000 laborers a day, but farm owners are uncertain whether enough workers will be available to pick the lettuce before it rots in the fields, Sigg said. "The law, in our view, has lost proportionality to the problem," he said. "There is no question that immigration - legal and illegal - causes a host of problems. But the economic side of this is: How do you unplug a work force that you can't possibly replace?" he asked.
Farmers also are encountering new difficulties in securing business loans, because lenders recognize they may not be able to bring their crops to market. Private sector investors similarly are holding back, Sigg said. The law is certain to cause the entire state's economy to slow, said Ann Seiden, spokeswoman for the Arizona Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

KEEPING UP WITH GROWTH
"Our rap over the past several years has been growth - this population has been booming, our economy has been doing well. Granted, there are some other factors that have caused our economy to backslide a little, but we think this is going to further that," she said. The now-slumping housing industry is closely tied to the immigrant labor pool. Approximately 22 percent of all construction trade workers are noncitizens, according to the UA study. Noncitizens account for 56 percent of plasterers and stucco masons, 41 percent of roofers, and 38 percent of drywall and ceiling installers. Plus, naturalized U.S. citizens account for an additional 6 percent of plasterers, 7 percent of roofers and 8 percent of drywall installers. The only question is how much impact the law will have on the state's economy, Seiden said. Economic development officials are hearing business owners are reluctant to move into or expand in Arizona while business licenses remain at stake, she said. "When you're going to invest in something, you pretty much want to invest in a sure thing. Uncertainty doesn't lend itself to that kind of positive investment and growth," she said.
One certainty is that the law will be enforced, said Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas. Employer sanctions are an important component of halting the "border crisis," and sheriff's deputies and county prosecutors are prepared to launch investigations next year, he said. "These are complex investigations. I would compare them to white-collar cases, fraud cases. These are not your simple cut-and-dried robbery or burglary cases," he said. The first cases are likely to take months to get to court. And while prosecutors have had months to develop a strategy on how to pursue their first cases, which are certain to attract national attention, they haven't done so, Thomas said. He dismissed the idea prosecutors have weighed whether to first go against a corner taco shop or similar small business in a quest for quick legal victory, or to first move against a larger and wealthier enterprise to score a strong victory. "We have no preconceptions about that. We're going to wait to see what kind of evidence and information we have," Thomas said. "The resources of the company will have no bearing on our decision."

119 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

Everything you have argued on this headline is benefiting the employer/business/corporation. You have done nothing at all, other than allowed the 'Illegal' to maintain his job with no penalty to anybody.

From the Borjas Blog:

DEE

If the elites are given a choice between legalizing the 12 million or encouraging self deportation by the 12 million, the elites will choose legalization.

Make no mistake, Dee, Almost NONE of the elite want to see deportation. When you Dee argue against deportation you are arguing the side of the elites.


Read what Dr Borjas has shown in his research - massive self deportation means higher wages for the unskilled US citizens.

It also means that the elites of the US suffer


Dee, show a little honesty. 80% of the senators, 80% of the congressmen, 80% of the big money donors to the democrats and the republicans ALL agree with you strongly when you say NO to deportation.

Show some honesty

Posted by: pj



Dee

you are 100% correct.


However, I hold you personally responsible.

Your words and actions encourage the undocumented to move to the USA and serve the big corporations and Bush by accepting slave wages.

You could instead tell all the undocumented to get the heck out of the USA and go back to Mexico. That would really stick it to the big corporations and to Bush.

That's why i hold you responsible. Anyone in Mexico reading your posts is more likely to move to the USA

Posted by: myles

A very good Mexican political scientist, Fredo Arias-King, wrote a essay on American political elites and immigration. It is well worth reading. He describes in detail the inappropriate relationship between American politicians and the Mexican political/economic class.

See "Immigration and Usurpation Elites, Power, and the People’s Will" (http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back706.pdf).

Posted by: Peter Schaeffer

etc.....

There are an unlimited supply of H-2A visas, it only takes the farmers will to get the visas, but he would rather only pay $9 and change to the worker, instead of the $17 - $20 it would cost him with the visa. Thats @ workers for the price of one = MORE PROFIT.

Penalize the employers, force them to obtain the visas = NO MORE EXPLOITATION of workers, and no more 'Illegals' as they would now be here on a work visa. WIN-WIN all around for the now 'Illegal' and the American Citizen.

Dee said...

Liquid, are you following me over to Borjas? Are you pj?

Dee said...

Also Liquid,
No Fair!
You are quoting some of the lame responses from the other side and not posting what I said. PJ and Myles are dweebish. No logical arguments and false accusations. Peter is very good and he and I discuss-chat.

Dee said...

One more thing Liquid. This post is a reprint from MSNBC. I am not arguing anything.

Liquidmicro said...

No I am not PJ. I post over there under my Liquidmicro, only a few posts. I do however, read probably to much.

By posting the headline, are you not agreeing with its assertions?? since they seem to fall in line with how you have been arguing.

Whether, PJ and myles are dweebs or not, doesn't matter, the point is they are correct in their argument of the elites/corporations.

Dee said...

Liquid,
When I post a headline, I find it interesting and a great topic for discussion. I may or may not agree with it. Many times I will post them verbatim, as I did with this one.

To me, this particular post was more fact and quotes. As you know, I want to use AZ as a case study and monitor what is happening.

My belief is, so goes AZ, so goes the Nation for these strict immigration laws.

patriot said...

I don't see anything overly strick by our Federal government mandating that employers verify that every employee on their payroll has the right to work in this country. The system was already in place but wasn't enforced.

You keep claiming you want the employers sanctioned and punished and yet when the Federal government takes steps to do so by making them tow the line, you do an about face and complain. Me thinks you speak with forked tongue, dee.

Dee said...

Pat, My stance is always the same.
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows into some legal status. (eg.Guest Worker)

Once 3 is enacted, most of the employees here will be in legal status. The employers will be sanctioned to all future illegal immigration hiring.

My stance has not changed.

Liquidmicro said...

Theres that numerical order thing again Dee, instead of 1, 2, 3, your numbered list should actually be
1. Secure Borders
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows into some legal status. (eg.Guest Worker)
2. Employer Sanctions

"Once 3 is enacted, most of the employees here will be in legal status. The employers will be sanctioned to all FUTURE illegal immigration hiring."

Future is the key word here, so legalize the 'Illegals' and wipe out all previous violations by both the 'Illegal' and the employer. Dee, wants to let everybody off the hook, and only apply it, like the '86 AMNESTY, promising to enforce the law afterwards. Employers are the ones to provide "guest Worker" status, the problem is they do not want to pay the wages, nor the expenses, for employing them, its not profitable then. Not going to happen this time around. Employers MUST be penalized, and what ever effect this has on the 'Illegals', then so be it.

Liquidmicro said...

Americans - Guest Workers in their own homes

Here's a creative thought. It's even from one of Dee's blogs that she likes. Read and enjoy, don't forget to thank an Employer for Christmas gifts to everybody, except the American employee.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Kent posts here from time to time.
Go look on the Gestapo post.

He is a little misguided.

What he is recommending is already happening. Example: The Venga a Michigan program invites anyone, everyone to come to the Cherry fields, live in migrant housing (free) and pick Cherries. This is the same for any of their AgJobs. This is true for citizens or non citizens. the SAME! as long as they are willing to work.

patriot said...

dee, your claim of stance 1 and 2 has never jived with your constant complaints when steps are taken to secure the border or to sanction the employers with raids and the part of the SAVE ACT that will require employers to verify their employees legitamacy.

A more honest statement from you would be: 1. Secure the borders just as long as we leave enough holes in it for more illegals to get through by denying the need for a fence. 2. Employer sanctions just as long as it doesn't include raids, deporting illegals or self-deporting them. 3. No surprise here. Reward illegals with legitamacy whether or not we need them. You should add a number 4 to your list. 4. Nothing should be done that stops the flow of illegal Mexicans/Hispanics that puts a crimp in the hastening of the Hispanicization of America.

You see the devil is in the details that you always leave out, dee. They can't be taken at face value. When elaborated on they add whole new meanings to your numbers 1-3.

patriot said...

liquid, actually what dee wants is:
1. Give the 12 million legal status. 2. Secure borders but only enough to make sure at least some more make it through. 3. Sanction employers for any new illegal hires but don't penalize the illegal employee. Give them legal status also.

patriot said...

In that order, of course.

Dee said...

Actually Pat, it is more in sequencing, like Liquid said. And it is not letting people off the hook. It is drawing a line in the sand. From this day forward, all employers will go to jail or out of business. Borders closed. Period.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says: From this day forward, all employers will go to jail or out of business. Borders closed. Period.


Like I said Dee wants to do: Legalize the 'Illegals' and wipe out all previous violations by both the 'Illegal' and the employer. Dee, wants to let everybody off the hook, and only apply it, like the '86 AMNESTY, promising to enforce the law afterwards. Employers are the ones to provide "guest Worker" status, the problem is they do not want to pay the wages, nor the expenses, for employing them, its not profitable then.

Not going to happen this time around. Employers MUST be penalized, and what ever effect this has on the 'Illegals', then so be it.

patriot said...

Sure thing dee. And the minute we find we have more illegals entering after the line in the sand is drawn because you and yours didn't want the fence, you will be championing the same old cause for the new illegals.

Dee said...

No Pat. Once the line is drawn, it is drawn.

dianne said...

We already drew the line once. It didn't work. No one believes it will work again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Dee said...

Dianne,
This is the dilemma.
What to do about the 12M here.
Knowing our own history, knowing the sheer number 12M - 20M, as large as the state of NY, do we mass deport, even over 4 years? What of those that have been hear 5 - 20 years? What of those 40% that overstayed their visas? What of those from countries seeking sanctuary and have no where to return to?

Here is the dillemma.
What to do?

Liquidmicro said...

Let them apply for Asylum, then it would be up to the courts to decide. Employers can apply for guest workers if needed, some are repatriating on their own. No need for MASS DEPORTATION, keep cracking down the way we are, things will work out for themselves, Enforcement through Attrition.

dianne said...

Yes, Dee, it's difficult.

For those seeking sanctuary as currently defined under the law, there should be no problem if they apply.

The strongest magnets to this country are the jobs and benefits. The article spoke of Rhino Masonry with jobs $15-25/hr plus benefits. I'm sorry, Dee. I don't believe for one minute there aren't American citizens willing to do that work for that amount of money. $25/hr without benefits is over $50,000 per year! Those jobs should only go to American citizens. My son-in-law out of college barely makes over that. Even at $15/hr, that's over $31,000, a respectable wage for lots of American people. Teachers start out at that wage.

As for the agricultural workers, I agree with the previous comments on the ag worker visas. Employers need to get them. If the requirements are too tough, then lessen them to be more in line with reality.

For all others, I don't know. Part of me says if enforcement against employers is effective, then the problem will take care of itself through attrition. For people here over 10 years, I know that seems harsh. Maybe there is something that can be done as guest workers in those instances but I think they need to go back to their home countries first, if even only for the time it takes to fully process green card applications.

None of this is easy. The problem got too far out of control. If we don't fix it this time, it will only get worse.

Dee said...

Dianne,
There are refugees from several war torn countries that we refuse to provide sanctuary status to.
Examples include Central American countries, Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Tunisia, on and on.

Dee said...

AgJobs = No
We need the migrant laborerers desperately or outsource the farms to their countries.

Construction Jobs = Yes we should be able to staff with Americans.

However, I am curious about how true this is for the construction jobs. Back when we were young this was true but what is it about our young people that they prefer to work at a computer or in the service industry vs manual labor? It is not like when my husband was a young man or back in my father´s day. Nowadays however, I don´t know if this is true.

Dee said...

How long will it take for the 12 - 20M to self attrit? There has been significant reduction in the numbers of new arrivals of illegal immigrants. ICE tells us it is just a trickle. Some are self attriting. However the overall numbers are growing.

For the number the size of NY to self attrit, it would take 50 years or more. We cannot live with illegal immigration until then. We have to draw a line somewhere and say no more illegal. Make those here 5+ years legal, less, leave. Make it within 2 years. Then let´s be finished. No more illegal status. end. over. fini. No more exploitation of workers. We have to end it in a way that does not devastate our economy or hurt people.

ultima said...

"My belief is, so goes AZ, so goes the Nation for these strict immigration laws."

In a larger and different sense, my belief is as goes AZ, CA, and TX, so goes the nation -- Mexico Norte.

ultima said...

"How long will it take for the 12 - 20M to self attrit?"

Self-attrit may not be the complete answer but it is certainly a beginning and maybe even a pathway to compromise. A significant reduction in the number of illegals will make everyone more amenable to a solution short of total deportation. As I have posted before, if it comes to this, it has been shown that as many 9 million can be repatriated in as little as 6 - 9 months: witness the expulsion of ethnic Germans from the eastern territories following the close of WW II. I do not support such mass deportations but, make no mistake about it, it is logistically feasible. Basically, we just need to send the message that illegals are not welcome and must return to their homelands with their minor children.

ultima said...

"AgJobs = No
We need the migrant laborers desperately or outsource the farms to their countries."

I agree with you on this. The question is: what should be the details of our policy in this regard?
How long can they stay before they must return? Should employers provide transportation? What about pregnant women?

ultima said...

"We cannot live with illegal immigration until then. We have to draw a line somewhere and say no more illegal. Make those here 5+ years legal, less, leave. Make it within 2 years. Then let´s be finished. No more illegal status. end. over. fini. No more exploitation of workers. We have to end it in a way that does not devastate our economy or hurt people.

December 25, 2007 2:20 PM"

I think this may be negotiable. How do Ag workers fit into this picture?

ultima said...

"If someone really wanted to know, this could be tested experimentally but it would have to be done pretty much all across the country simultaneously. Dump the illegals and raise the wages and benefits every week until the jobs are filled or labor vs. jobs reaches equilibrium. Chances of this happening? -- probably two, zero and none.

Anonymous said...

I am for compassionate deportation.

I believe a compromise is possible. A compromise that brings most people of good will together.

Let me start out by saying that La Raza wants to flood the US with Spanish speaking folks by any means. There is no way they will agree to a compromise.

Let me also say that the white racists want no immigration of people that are not anglo. The white racists will not be satisfied with any compromise.

However most people here i think are in the reasonable middle.

Dee has called for legalization of all the undocumented folks who can prove they have been in the USA for more than five years.

I personally believe that this sort of legalization WOULD be accepted by the great mass of Americans if they trusted that the there would be no fraud (people who claim to have been here for more than five years that really weren't) and if they were certain that there would be no more illegal immigration going forward.

What is needed in order to resolve this is more trust on all sides.

I do not have the answer but I want to steer the discussion in the right direction.

What could be implemented in order to give the great mass of antis 100% conviction that they won't be stabbed in the back like they were in 1986?

Let me float the idea of a national ID card - one that incorporates fingerprint and photo and retina scan, a card that is impossible to fake?

Again, i don't have all the answers, but i feel it is important for all of us, pro and anti, to recognize that some sort of compromise is coming and to come up with a method of enforcing that compromise.

Again, i want to stress that as of right now, I personally won't agree to any compromise since I believe the day after a compromise that La Raza will seek to sneak many more new illegals in to the USA.

But I want to work to figure this out

Anonymous said...

I am for compassionate deportation

I feel like the antis were stabbed in the back in 1986

I think antis will be very very careful before agreeing to any compromise this time.

However there is room for a compromise

let me throw out some ideas

(1) legal status for all undocumented who have been in the us for more than XXX years who have been employed

(2) end to birthright citizenship

(3) a fool proof method (id card?) of identifying those in the us legally or not legally

(4) aggressive enforcement, with ID cards frequently asked for at workplaces

(5) employers who hire those without ID cards going to jail and serving hard time



I do not claim that the above is a perfect solution, i do not even claim it is a good solution but i put it on the table to steer this discussion in a productive direction.

In my humble opinion, the momentum is with the antis. If someone is a hard core anti, it may be smart for them to piss on my ideas and just hold out for something better. If the antis wait longer they may get a better deal than they can get today.

However, i would say that the human suffering going on right now, the suffering that will happen until a final compromise is implemented, should lead people with humanitarian instincts to start talking about a compromise now

I am not a moron, i know that La Raza will reject my ideas and i know that the white anglo racists will also reject my ideas - i am looking for a place where reasonable humanitarian folks can come together

Liquidmicro said...

Chamber promises to oppose "onerous" state immigration laws


To demonstrate the potential economic effects of state immigration laws, the chamber sponsored a study focusing on five states -- Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Oklahoma and Pennsylvania. Most immigration-related laws at the state level have been enacted within the past 18 months, the report noted, so it is too early to fully measure their impact. The Illinois and Arizona laws do not take effect until January 1, 2008.

magyart said...

I agree with this new law and the comments of federal Judge Neil Wake, who said any delay in implementing the law which allows suspension or revocation of state licenses of companies that knowingly hire undocumented workers would harm the state and, in particular, legal Arizona residents.

"Those who suffer the most from unauthorized alien labor are those whom federal and Arizona law most explicitly protect,'' Wake said.
"They are the competing lawful workers, many unskilled, low-wage, sometimes near or under the margin of poverty, who strain in individual competition and in a wage economy depressed by the great and expanding number of people who will work for less,'' the judge continued.

It's against the law for employers to knowingly hire illegalaliens. It's REASONABLE to expect employers to verify social security numbers of employees.

The only employees walking off their jobs, are illegal aliens and they SHOULD be denied employment, since it is against the law.

I want the federal version of this law passed. Call your elected representatives and ask them to co-sponsor the SAVE Act. The House bill HR4088 already has 131 co-sponsors, but needs more. The Senate version S2368 has only three.

Illegal aliens do not have a legal standing to question a state or federal law. Employers should do all that is possible to comply with the laws of AZ and the nation. It's their civic responsibility.

Help take our country back. Support the AZ Sanctions Law and ask your U.S. Congressmen to co-sponsor the SAVE Act.

patriot said...

I totally agree. The SAVE ACT needs to pass. It may not be perfect, (as some like to point out in here) but the bottom line of it which is to mandate that employers verify their employees SS numbers is what we need so desperately to happen. Let us not throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak with this bill.

ultima said...

Anon: these two ideas are the crux of the problem "(1) legal status for all undocumented who have been in the us for more than XXX years who have been employed

(2) end to birthright citizenship"

Pro-legals largely favor (2)but this probably requires a constitutional amendment which will be increasingly difficult to obtain. One also has to think carefully about those many children of illegals who have been in this country for their entire lives and now may be adults and in the work force. This is the old argument of not penalizing the children for their parents' illegality. While this may draw some sympathy from some quarters, I believe in a "get tough" attitude because it is the only thing that will work. Of course, to the extent that we can nip it in the bud for new illegals this problem would be much less.

Your idea (1) is a difficult one but as you suggest a solution is possible only with some compromise on this issue. But before we begin to grant amnesty to any of these folks we need to make sure the border is sealed and measures in place to detect, apprehend, detain and deport all who arrive after the effective date of any new law. We also need some provision for ag workers. I favor a definite temporary employment contract in that case where workers must return to their homelands every six months or when the harvest is in, and sooner for pregnant women. I would want a ag worker program designed to assure that none of these folks are allowed to stay permanently and that everything possible is done to make sure they do not produce any birthright children. They must be thought of as a source of temporary foreign labor and that is all.

The others who have been here more than xxx years need to be sorted out by the immigration judge/appeal process. Those in this category who have demonstrated social integration, cultural and linguistic assimilation should be favorably considered. Those who have not should be expeditiously deported. Although many adults will not be able to become truly fluent in English, most can learn enough to get along. We need community-based free English courses. Those who take these courses should be able to qualify under the linguistic assimilation rule. Those who do not should be deported forthwith.

ultima said...

"Pat, My stance is always the same.
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows into some legal status. (eg.Guest Worker)"

As Pat pointed out, this is a major oversimplification of the problem.

What measures will be used to secure the border and what will be the criteria for judging when the border is secure? Although most would agree that it is not possible to actually seal the border, that should be the objective and we should measure on a daily basis how close we are to achieving that goal. I am, of course, a believer in deportation of a significant number of illegals to further illustrate that we are serious about border security. If everyone who is already here is allowed to stay,that will send the wrong message and compound the problem at the border.

2. Employer sanctions are not possible until there is a mechanism for identifying those who employ illegals--raids and mismatch letters are the best way to do this along with a provision that makes granting sanctuary a crime.

3. Dealing with the 12-20 million is the largest problem. We cannot afford to grant blanket amnesty and still expect our borders to be secure. Blanket amnesty sends the wrong message. I have been constant in my recommendations that we register all aliens and deport all those who are subsequently detected who have not registered. I would require registration at the nearest post office every six months and whenever they change address.

Those who have registered will be subjected to a systematic immigration and appeal process. Initially the standards for an ID will be very high so that we can accomplish the objective of sending a message to others who are here or who might be considering violating the border. This would be the beginning of a process to sort out those who deserve to stay and work and those who do not.

I have constantly stated the need for evidence of social integration and cultural and linguistic assimilation. This evidence could include testimonials from co-workers, neighbors and community leaders, preferably not of the same ethnicity as the applicant. Although evidence from the clergy can be considered, it may be biased by humanitarian and religious considerations rather than objective criteria.

Note that allowing any illegals to stay is a very large compromise which is contrary to the wishes of extremists.

To move forward then, we need to see that the SAVE bills is passed,that mismatch letters are made a matter of law, and that employer sanctions are spelled out in some detail. We need to build the fence and other infrastructure at the border. We need to deport most of those guilty of SSN mismatch and multiple use violations, quickly and expeditiously.

The test of whether someone is really serious about border security is their willingness to provide the tools necessary to secure the borders. Otherwise, they cannot be taken seriously.

Anonymous said...

I am for compassionate deportation


I believe a compromise is coming

however a compromise can only happen when the majority of antis believe that such a compromise will be enforced

no matter what side you are on, pro or anti, if you want a compromise you need to work towards some enforcement mechanism

in the absence of an enforcement mechanism, the antis won't agree to a compromise

i suspect that many pros and antis - people who are on opposite sides of the immigration issue - find themselves on the same side of many other debates. perhaps by building bonds on issues that we have in common we can establish a framework for solving the immigration problem

let's talk about the issue of a national ID card with retina scan and fingerprint

on many levels, this is terrifying. Neither pros nor antis are inclined to trust the us government - for all sorts of valid reasons

another idea is to have the national id card run by a corporation - i think neither pros nor antis trust the corporations either

here is the quandry - no solution to our immigration problem is possible without some sort of fool proof cheat proof system. How do we implement it?

Let me say again - it doesn't matter whether you are a pro or an anti - IF you want a compromise, we need a perfect system for knowing who is here legally and who is here illegally

i don't have the answers, but i think we should launch this discussion - - the broad issue is - how can we enforce a compromise in such a way as to build confidence on both sides -

Dee said...

Liquid,
As I predicted, it does look like a group is closely monitoring locations-states that enact strict enforcement laws to report on the impacts to the local economies. This is exactly what needs to be done. This way we will know and understand the impacts if these laws are implemented in other locations-states

Dee said...

I encourage all readers to read the Gestapo Act blog I posted or read the SAVE Act itself. There are several aspects to this proposed bill that will negatively impact our country, including have contractors (e.g. Blackwater) patrol our borders and have unmanned aircraft patrol our cities. All of the potential for racial profiling will have negative impacts and more $$ for the Crony contractors and Crony owners of the private prison detention centers.

We need to study the impacts of the laws in AZ, OK, IL to determine what the impacts would be of the SAVE Act nationally.

patriot said...

dee, so we should study whether or not businesses operating in this country illegally have been good or bad for our country? Something just doesn't set right with me on this. We are a nation of laws. Why should we under any circumstances or outcomes even be questioning or studying immoral and illegal behavior rather than just doing the right thing no matter what the outcome is? It is similar to eliminating one of the ten commandments just because it has been broken with impunity.

There is more good than bad in the SAVE ACT. Just as I asked before, why throw the baby out with the bath water? The major part of it is making employers check the legal status of their workers and potential workers. All other objections to the other parts of it is just smoke and mirrors because the pro's don't want the employers to do their jobs and therefore prevent illegals from keeping and getting jobs in this country illegally.

Dee said...

I wrote several blogs detailing the problems with the so called SAVE Act. I ask readers to reference them, starting with the Gestapo blog.

Second, I think it is important for us to monitor what is happening in Oklahoma and in Arizona with their strict enforcement laws. AZ doesn´t take effect until 1/1 so we need to give it time. Oklahoma enacted theirs in November and there are already several issues including impact on citizens.

As Liquid noted, there are groups closing monitoring and reporting on the impacts. We need to study the results as they come out.

patriot said...

Again dee, why should we study if immorality and lawlessness is good or bad for our country? It is irrelevant.

Gestapo? It is that what it is called when employers are mandated to follow our labor laws?

Dee said...

Pat,
I suggest you go back to the Gestapo post to remind yourself of our lengthy discussions.

This so called save act will not pass before the election. That is clear!

patriot said...

You only hope it doesn't pass, ever!

Game Over said...

It's pretty clear Dee will say anything to get illegals amnestied. To wit, her silly "historical" appeals I've read on on other blogs.

The facts are straightforward. Illegals have been a disaster and legalising them will not improve that disaster one iota. No amnesty. Deportation only; either direct or attrition.

dianne said...

One thing that really irritates me is this racism accusation by the pros. It only makes me and those who oppose amnesty angry and more anti than ever. The fact is the largest group of illegal immigrants happen to be from Latin America and many of them have brown skin but there are plenty of illegal immigrants of other skin colors, including white and everybody knows it. If those who cry racism want to fan the fires even higher than they already are, keep it up and that's exactly what will happen.

Dee said...

Game Over,
What is clear is you have not studied the history of immigration and migration to our great USA. I can provide you a few reference links or look up the Immigration Act of 1924 in wikipedia. That is a good place to start.

Dee said...

Dianne,
The whole concept of racism in this immigration discussion is captured in a nutshell, unintentionally, in this Hardball by Chris Matthews transcript here.

Please notice the Donahue comments in Red in the 2nd paragraph.

Liquidmicro said...

Your argument of the Canadians, Dee, is still the fact that our government is not and has not truly enforced our immigration laws. It is not the fault of the American Citizens. Donahue's comments to Matthews was about the state of New Hampshire and their Ideals, not those of most ANTI's.If you wish to point fingers, point them to just the ones of the state of New Hampshire. Most ANTI's are for equal opportunity repatriation/deportation of all non-legal immigrants.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I know you, personally, you, and people like Dianne and Ulty, do not think of this as a race issue.
However, there are many ANTIs that do. (based on the blogs, I would say the majority and you are in the minority)

As you know, in order to keep myself informed, I frequently read current Immigration blogs. I saw this one referenced on a few ANTI sites. Read it and what it says about M&Ms.

Liquidmicro said...

"Today's M&M influx (Moslems and Mexicans) is distinguished from previous immigrant waves by a SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT. A Zogby poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans believe California and the Southwest rightly belong to them."

Now you know where the reconquista theories come from and how they are truly one of the worries of the ANTI's. I don't see to much wrong with the opinion of Mr. Duke. It seems to be pretty factual for the most part to me.

There is nothing racist at all in his article.

patriot said...

I agree liquid, facts as in the M&M article are not racism. dee is wrong as usual by implying that most Amercans opposed to illegal immigration are racists. She hangs around a bunch of radical forums and blogs and tries to claim that they represent the majority of anit's and it isn't true. I have read a lot of anti blogs and forums myself and even within those there are only a few who are radicals. Most of them are just frustrated with illegal immigration, stick to the facts and do not make racist remarks. That is just the way that dee and her fellow illegal alien sympathizers like to interpret it because of their agenda. dee often reads into things that aren't really there which is obvious in her blog here.

Dee said...

Here is the problem Liquid.

There is NO SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT by Minorities.

There is a SENSE OF SUPERIORITY by the ANGLOS and Northern European ethnicities in our Society.

We all KNOW IT.

Don´t pretend you don´t.

The Elitism resides in the Northern Europeans.

You All always think you are Superior.

You All Always Call US, ALL HISPANIC AMERICANS, A BUNCH OF MEXICANS.

You Know It.
I Know It.

The Elitism is there.
It Lives and Breathes.
I wish it were different.
I wish WE Americans Could ALL Be Equal!

It is very SAD in a way!
I wish it were Different!

Dee said...

I´ve been reading and studying Alan Stang´s articles. He is an obvious racist.

To think that YOU Liquid, side with him, is very, very heart-breaking, but...
but...
Enlightening.

I was hoping there was Hope for Equality... at least, in thinking and digesting the possibilities for our Childrens´ Future.

Kinda Sad!

Liquidmicro said...

The "Elites", since you seem to have the same misunderstanding on the Borjas Blog, are the Corporations/Big Businesses lobbying Congress for cheap labor. They are the Congressman that have given in to the desires of Corporation/Big Business, all in the name of a global economy = more money for the rich, while the middle and lower classes stagnate and/or decline, turning all into slave labor. You side with them when you want Amnesty for the 'Illegals'. The only one here still calling you Mexican or Mexican-American is yourself. Your minority crying and whinnying does nothing for you, you are convoluted in your rational of discriminating yourself with 'Illegal Hispanics/Latinos/Mexicans', your own word play has confused, "yourself".

All American Citizens are equal, you just confuse yourself with those that are not American Citizens. This is by your own doing and your own choice.

Liquidmicro said...

If you think Alan Stang is a RACIST, then you do not read him nor do you understand his Equal Opportunity Government bashing. He is actually , if I am not mistaken, an Equal Opportunity Offender, an Independent, not Dem. or Repub., a Constitutionist.

Liquidmicro said...

What does Alan Stang have to do with this topic?

patriot said...

Well good! Dee came right out shooting with both barrels with her race card. If we had made the same statements about Hispanics you would have had a fit. Talk about racism and hypocricy! It's all right there in dee's post. Now we know where she stands on the white race for sure. She hates anglos! There will never be a doubt in my mind from now on.

Anonymous said...

Dee, i am for compassionate deportation.

Let's try to dig deeper in to the issues and come to some understanding.

If i understand correctly, you worked picking crops of some sort fo a number of years.

Can you tell us what types of crops you picked and what your wages were ?

Can you tell us in addition whether you felt like the boss gave you the best possible equipment - gloves, etc that could have made your job easier and safer

Let me know, I am trying to zero in on how you were treated as an eployee

Thanks

Dee said...

Elites?
Your definitation is Dobb´s definition.
That is NOT the actual definition.

I don´t agree with Dobb´s or his PHONY definition!
Middle Class = Slave Labor? Hardly.
SUVs, the latest technology, life in the Fast Lane, hardly living in squalor or Slave Labor.

Bull Crap on who calls me what. All I have to do is walk down to the mall.
All any of us have to do is drive by Sheriff Arpaio.

I choose to see reality.
Do you truly believe there is no racism in America?
Take off you Rose Colored Glasses.

More your doing than mine, dear!

patriot said...

anon, dee has told her crop picking story over and over in here. Please don't make her repeat them yet again. Keep up, will you?

Dee said...

Pat,
You are the most extreme on this board.
We ALL know where you stand.

Dee said...

Anon,
My father came to Michigan as a troquero. He was hired by the state of Michigan to truck up migrant workers (similar to the Bracero Program). He also served as their interpretor. He brought up his family to work in the fields. He also worked as a migrant. Afterwards, he stayed in Michigan as many of the migrants did to work in the auto factories. Every summer until I was 12, my mother brought all the children to work in the cherry fields in northern Michigan. We worked every summer.
My father knew many of the farmers. He chose a very good farm for us. The living quarters were clean. The farmer paid a fair price. These were much better conditions than many of the other farms.
We were paid 50 cents a lug. It took two full (back breaking) pails to fill a lug.

patriot said...

dee, don't try to back peddle now. You implied that all whites are racist and feel superior to other races. You implied that all whites look at Hispanic Americans and call them Mexicans, inferring that they aren't American rather than just how I get referred to as being German sometimes just because I am from German ancestry. Get off the victim wagon. You are allowing your bleeding heart for Mexican illegals to pour over to become sympathy for yourself and other Hispanic Americans just as liquid stated. Your statements were blatantly racist against white Americans. No turning back now the rope around your neck has already suffocated you.

patriot said...

dee, yes, I stand up for my country and our laws. I wouldn't consider that to be extreme.

However, your remarks about white people in this country were very extreme.

Dee said...

In the link I provided, the author refers to M&M - the influx of Moslems and Mexicans. He said the M&Ms are 3rd worlders and "destruction of the western civilization that has given us everything we hold dear, from our freedom to our prosperity, not for reasons of race, but because of circumstances at least partly created by Americans ourselves."

I call this racist!

Dee said...

I have no doubt at all about your perceptions Pat.

Dee said...

Don´t think you can lynch me Pat. Your analogies speak for themselves.

Dee said...

As the author (in the link I provided) puts all previous immigrants on a pedestal "this lies in contrast to yesteryear´s immigrants" he forgets that many American Hispanics, like my family, helped build our great USA and have been here for centuries. We were here when his ancestors arrived. My father, his and his and my ancestors provided the manpower as our nation was built.

This is what people like him forget.

Dee said...

Pat,
You forget that my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years. You forget that we not only provided the manpower to build our nation, but we proudly served in the military.

Though you talk about "Lynching" us, we are here to stay, as PROUD AMERICANS!

Dee said...

Shame on you Pat!
Lynching is a Race Crime!

Pat´s LYNCHING Quote:
"No turning back now the rope around your neck has already suffocated you."

Liquidmicro said...

Please start reading, Dee.

On the Cutting Edge of Globalization

If you start to understand the true nature of the quagmire of immigration, you might begin to understand and agree with what Dobbs has been saying, and understand what the difference is between "elites" and the working class.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

As the author (in the link I provided) puts all previous immigrants on a pedestal "this lies in contrast to yesteryear´s immigrants" he forgets that many American Hispanics, like my family, helped build our great USA and have been here for centuries. We were here when his ancestors arrived. My father, his and his and my ancestors provided the manpower as our nation was built.

This is what people like him forget.


Here you do it again, Dee, you equate yourself to that of an immigrant instead of calling yourself a citizen. This is what people like you do, in trying to twist and distort the conversation in order to lessen the rhetoric, you make it personal.

Liquidmicro said...

Your family ancestors happened to be on this side of the border when Texas became a Republic and then joined the USA in 1845. Where was your family in 1620?? What about all the country building east of the Mississippi prior to 1845?

Liquidmicro said...

If I'm not mistaken, your fathers ancestors are Spanish, that would mean the are European, just like mine. Your Mother was Mexican, unknown ancestry as you have never stated if she too was of Spanish decent or if she was of indigenous decent. Which then makes you no different then any of us in here. You keep segregating yourself and claiming yourself with 'illegal immigrants' by your own choice. Say it with me Dee, I am not an 'Illegal Immigrant' I am an American Citizen. Keep repeating the American Citizen part until it sticks. Maybe then you won't confuse yourself ethnicitly.

Dee said...

Agree with the likes of Dobbs? Never!
Agree with his convenient terms? Not Likely!
The book reference was interesting, but again an opinion piece!

Dee said...

Liquid,
I speak historically.
Your side does not like to discuss History.

You prefer your own ASSUMptions and your own made up terms.

Dee said...

Liquid,
My family was here building this nation when yours arrived.

Dee said...

Liquid,
There you go making things up again.
Read my BIO. I am an American.
It is your side that calls me otherwise.
I study the History of our country.
Your side chooses to believe in some made up Mayberrian society made up of Northern European immigrants.
I choose History and Facts. Your side makes things up.

Liquidmicro said...

Social class in the United States

Since you enjoy wiki so much.

It would seem to me that your fathers ancestors came and did the same as what you say my ancestors have done. Again NO DIFFERENCE. Your family is no different then mine, other than mine began building this nation east of the Mississippi prior to yours starting in Texas in the 1800's. Yours just played catchup to what mine had already accomplished. :-}~

Dee said...

Liquid,
Here is an article for you.
You pretend there is no racism in America. Please take off your rose colored glasses and understand it is still here in America.

"The heaviest burdens of racism in the country have fallen upon Native Americans, Asian Americans, African Americans, Latin Americans and some other immigrant groups and their descendants. Racist attitudes, or prejudice, are still held by substantial portions of the population."

Liquidmicro said...

Since you prefer to not accept the term and definition of "elites" as what has been given, what is your term of Congress/Corporate Conglomerates/Globalists?

Dee said...

More

"recent increases in illegal Hispanic immigration have spurred anti-Latino sentiment, particularly in areas of the United States that have previously seen few Hispanic immigrants."

patriot said...

Don't try to twist my words again, dee. I wasn't suggesting that I lynch you or your family and the fact that they have been here for some time means no more than any other family being here for whatever time.

You hung yourself by your own racist remarks about whites. You didn't need my help our anyone elses. The issue has nothing to do with Hispanic citizens anyway. It has to do with illegal aliens.

Liquidmicro said...

I haven't denounced racism as non-existent. Racism is rampant in each race. You have tried to portray 2 different links you have provided as 'Racist' to include the topic of this conversation. Non of which are 'racist' pieces. If you are trying to make us all "Guilty by Association" again, it won't work.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You more than most should understand since we discuss this frequently.

Big Business and the Administration, those you call Elites, do not want CIR. That is what the discussion here and on Borjas has been about. They want status quo so they can continue to exploit workers.

I refuse to call them Elites. Elites are not only Big Business and the Administration, they are also the likes of Tancredo, Dobbs, Ron Paul and anyone who pushes their agenda for power.

patriot said...

Geez, dee you are pathetic. The lynching thing was not meant to be taken literally and you know it. I never said anything about doing any lynching literally or figurativelly. I said you had hung yourself by your racist statements about whites. All of a sudden you even drag your family into it some kind of lynching scenario. It is times like this that you really make me question your honesty and your sanity.

Dee said...

There are two issues regarding Race which I have discussed:

1. There is a degree of Racism inherent in the overall Immigration discussion
2. Many (KKK, NSM, Skinheads, many MMs like Simcox, Schwilk, and Gilchrist, etc) on the ANTI side maintain an extremely Racist Agenda

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

More

"recent increases in illegal Hispanic immigration have spurred anti-Latino sentiment, particularly in areas of the United States that have previously seen few Hispanic immigrants." [original research?]


From WIKI about your paragraph above, and what you forgot to place at the end of your quote.[original research?].

Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments.


Pay better attention to your quotes, this shouldn't happen to someone with your professed education and knowledge.

Dee said...

Pat,
Discontinue your name calling (e.g. pathetic, sanity, etc.) and keep to the discussion.

Dee said...

As I said Liquid,
There are two issues regarding Race which I have discussed:

1. There is a degree of Racism inherent in the overall Immigration discussion
2. Many (KKK, NSM, Skinheads, many MMs like Simcox, Schwilk, and Gilchrist, etc) on the ANTI side maintain an extremely Racist Agenda

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

There are two issues regarding Race which I have discussed:

1. There is a degree of Racism inherent in the overall Immigration discussion
2. Many (KKK, NSM, Skinheads, many MMs like Simcox, Schwilk, and Gilchrist, etc) on the ANTI side maintain an extremely Racist Agenda.



To answer in order.
1. There is a perceived degree of racism by the PRO side attributed to the ANTI's.
2. Many (Mexica-Movment, Chicono Professors, MeCHA, NCLR, etc. maintain an extremely RACIST agenda.

This works both ways, and if you keep referring back to it, you will never look forward to the answer. Argue the topics with an open mind to learning and understanding, maybe then the rhetoric and looking backwards will go away.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee quotes:
"The heaviest burdens of racism in the country have fallen upon Native Americans, Asian Americans, African Americans, Latin Americans and some other immigrant groups and their descendants. Racist attitudes, or prejudice, are still held by substantial portions of the population."

But she didn't complete the paragraph.

Racist attitudes, or prejudice, are still held by substantial portions of the population. Members of every American ethnic group have perceived racism in their dealings with other groups.[1][2] (The missing end to her quote above)

I find this quite interesting and relates back to exactly what I argued, quit trying to achieve what you wish to be as an outcome, try being and debating HONESTLY, as I do go and check your quotes and references.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
Big Business and the Administration, those you call Elites, do not want CIR.


OOOOHHHHH, RRRRREEEEEAAAALLLYYYYYYYYYY.

Obviously you don't know which Corporate conglomerates back the likes of NCLR, MeCHA and various other PRO groups that were wanting CIR to pass. Do some research as to who puts monies into the pockets of these groups.

For someone so learned of the immigration battle, you surely lack in some of the basic knowledge.

patriot said...

Back peddling again dee by bringing up radical organizations now? Here is what you actually said. Notice the generalities that you used against whites? These are racist statements!

Quote dee:

"There is a SENSE OF SUPERIORITY by the ANGLOS and Northern European ethnicities in our Society.

We all KNOW IT.

Don´t pretend you don´t.

The Elitism resides in the Northern Europeans.

You All always think you are Superior."

I rest my case dee.

Dee said...

Liquid, Liquid, Liquid,
For such an intelligent man, you have so many strong, biased opinions.

I would like to see the both of us spend a week working in an organization for the other side.

You need to spend a week as an NCLR or MECHA member.

I should spend a week as an MM.

Hmmmmm.. I wonder if we would both have different perspectives after the experiences.

patriot said...

dee, discontinue twisting my words and making racist comments against whites.

Liquidmicro said...

Actually I tried to join NCLR, except they don't have a membership, you can only donate monies to them. Needless to say, they will not be getting my time to send them money.

Dee said...

Well, maybe we can think of something. One Week dedicated to the other perspective, just to see how much we learn and if our perspectives change.

Liquidmicro said...

As for MeCha, you have to be a Chicon@/Latin@/Hispanic to be a member, yet they have no membership page on any of their sites.

How about we drop the whole to do about the fringe groups, since you, nor I, will agree with what they do on the opposite side.

Liquidmicro said...

I understand your perspective, Dee. I said the other day, "Your heart s in the right place", we all have some sort of digress about the plight of the 'Illegals'. Some are her for survival reasons, others, however are not. We all agree to this. The problem is you believe by legalizing them, that they all want it, while probably the majority does, there are others that don't. By legalizing them, as we did in '86 where only 1.?M were supposed to be Amnestied, we ended up having more than 3.?M legalized. Look at the downfall of the economy during that time. Late 1980s recession

Whats going to happen now, if we legalize 12M? Will it turn into 24M+ Amnestied? What about the employers and their breaking of the laws for the last 20+ years? Shouldn't they be punished?

If we give Amnesty to the 'Illegals', then the employers also get Amnestied. They will not be held accountable for exploitation of the workers, they will not be reprimanded in any sort of way. They will then in turn, hire and exploit the next wave of 'Illeglas' that come over expecting another Amnesty, since we now have given 7 in the past 20 years, whats a few more, right?

The employers must be held accountable and penalized, the 'Illegals' are a by product of their cheating and the 'Illegals' own greed.

Lets start playing fair, recall or re-negotiate NAFTA and CAFTA to be more fair to the Central and South American Countries, lets lessen and verify our farm sub-sidies, but most of all, Dee, lets be honest with our debating.

patriot said...

As I have asked many times before, why is dee concentrating on radical fringe groups or isolated incidents of individual misdeeds or alleged misdeeds on the anti side rather than focusing on just plain old law abiding anti's without any kind of a racist agenda? Oh that's right, most of those are white people so they just have to be racists with a superiority complex. They are the all the same to her as the KKK, etc.

Dee said...

Ok liquid. Truce. Neither of us will join the fringes.
(Your John Wayne drawl would probably scare them anyway (LOL)

Dee said...

Hey Liquid, you can´t blame the recession of the 1980s on illegal immigration. Remember these words, rosebud, "savings and loan".

Liquidmicro said...

I'm not blaming anything on the 'Illegals' then, or now; can we say repeat recession. It is compared to the same time frame and problems, then and now.

Dee said...

Liquid, If I listen to Bernanke, he says the 12M have helped us AVOID a recession. (I would say "delayed" the inevitable based on our own economy and associated issues)

patriot said...

dee, would you provide us a link to Bernanke's statement that says that the 12 million illegal aliens have helped us avoid a recession?

Liquidmicro said...

One could also argue the fact, that if American Citizens were doing the jobs instead of 'Illegals', then maybe the Citizens wouldn't be losing their homes or be up to their eyeballs in debt. The Americans would have had more money (due to being paid a fair, living wage) to float through the economic quagmire longer, thus lessening the impact that we are seeing today.

patriot said...

I know many construction workers that would be glad to see the illegals leave. Their wages would go way back up again and they could actually communicate in English on the job again.

Liquidmicro said...

According to a July Census report, there are 54,277,000 Americans ages 16 to 64 who aren't in the labor force. This includes 23 million "less-educated" adults who, for a variety of reasons, don't have a job.

Narrowing this down further, there are 14 million people actively seeking employment who can't find a full-time job in today's economy, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. If the supply of illegal workers were to dry up through Arizona's new enforcement programs, employers in the state would be forced to respond by offering higher wages, increased benefits and improved working conditions. Employers would have more incentives to modernize and eliminate unnecessary workers. The result would be a new deal for unskilled American and legal workers because they would be better paid and have more enlightened work environments.

Can you imagine it: Shifting the costs of illegal immigrant employment from the taxpayers to the marketplace?

Michael Scott - Opinion Piece


I like this part the best: Shifting the costs of illegal immigrant employment from the taxpayers to the marketplace?

Dee said...

Anon,
Here are some articles that talk about the impact of HR4088 in OK.

I´ve been trying to locate articles that tell me there have been increases in the number of American Citizens obtaining jobs and that their salaries have increased due to the change in law. I am not having any luck so far. Just articles talking about the loss of business and jobs. Please let me know if you find any urls in OK that provide your perspective.

Capitol Hill feels effect of HB 1804

Arguments heat up over new immigration law

State immigration bill requires some corrections

Hispanics feeling heat of enforcement

patriot said...

This from the article called "Hispanics feeling heat of enforcement":

By Devona Walker
Staff Writer
Regardless of citizenship status, Hispanics say they are being hurt by the ongoing immigration debate. In contrast, a recent study by the Congressional Budget Office reports that local and state governments are uniformly incurring costs due to the presence of undocumented immigrants.

Note the line, "a recent study by the Congressional Budget Office reports that local and state governments are uniformly incurring costs due to the presence of undocumented immigrants."

This article doesn't support your views as all, dee.

patriot said...

Here is more from the same article, dee.

What's the fiscal burden?
The Congressional Budget Office recently studied the fiscal impact of unauthorized immigrants on state and local governments. It found tax revenues generated from unauthorized residents do not offset the cost of services. Nor does the federal government adequately reimburse local governments for those additional costs.
It also reports that constitutionally many states have difficulty avoiding those costs. In most states unauthorized immigrants cost states less than 5 percent of the cost to provide citizens those same services. In terms of fiscal deficits, the largest tax burden has been in education, health care and police and fire services.

"We, in the public debate, have ignored those costs for too long,” said Carol Swain, a Vanderbilt University Law professor and author. Swain said illegal immigrants strain low-income workers and criticized their advocates for demonizing dissent. Beyond the highly politicized debate, she says people are paying the price.

In 2004, the Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-illegal immigration think tank, estimated that the net national impact of illegal immigration to be about $10 billion, roughly 0.09 percent of the annual budget at the time — a relatively low number.

What concerns Swain , as well as other critics of illegal immigration is that the benefits of illegal immigration are enjoyed by one group, primarily the businesses that employ them and consumers that use their services. However, the costs are endured by other groups — low-income workers who compete for those jobs and taxpayers.

"It's not costless to the nation. It's not simply a win-win, like immigration advocates would like to portray it,” Swain said.

The worst hit is native citizens, then law-abiding immigrants, she said.

"Those seeking to come to this country legally but cannot because all the attention is focused on one group,” Swain said. "What about the immigrants that are here legally and waiting for green cards and cannot (get them) because the system is clogged up with illegal immigration?”

Dee said...

Pat,
1st, read the overall articles I posted. Business and Taxes are being LOST. No one disputes this.

2nd, the studies conducted and referenced in the article were posted here before. In a nutshell, they indicated both benefits and costs. With newer immigrants the costs of education are the biggest impacts and from the local and state perspective, these costs outweigh the over benefit. However, all recognize that the benifit of education leads to assimilation, leads to higher net profit in the future.


3. You have to be alert to words in the article which reference the people (ANTI CRITICS) providing the quotes (OPINIONS).

Examples:
. Swain , (a well known) critics of illegal immigration
. the Center for Immigration Studies, an ANTI-illegal immigration think tank,

patriot said...

I did read all the articles you posted. Illegals are still a net negative to our society and they aren't "immigrants".

Anonymous said...

Yes
the studies are clear

(1) illegals are a net negative to society

(2) they are a particularly large net negative to unskilled us citizens.

Dee said...

No. You both are incorrect. The articles did not say "net negative to SOCIETY." Those are your terms PAT.

patriot said...

The Congressional Budget committee says so, dee. And I myself have done the math.

Page Hits