Tuesday, August 5, 2008

Massive Identity Theft Scheme Illustrates the Difference Between TRUE Identity Theft and Someone Making Up an SS Number so They Can Work!

Americans are afraid of Identity Theft, TRUE Identity Theft not Migrant Workers using a made up number. The ANTI Immigration Reform groups are constantly misusing terms such as "Identity Theft" and "Amnesty" all in support of their agenda, to scare the American Public.
TRUE Identity Theft: Schemers, Spammers and Scammers are busy trying to gain access to your identity. eMail Scammers overload your emails with Spam just in case you slip up and give away access to your personal files. They want to set up a fake credit card in your name, gain access to your bank accounts and drop your credit score down to the single digits, all so they can enjoy the high life on your dime.
The Top 10 Identity Theft Scams are: 1. Check Scams, 2. Advance Fee Lenders, 3. On-Line Employment Offers, 4. Lottery-Sweepstake Notifications, 5. Overpayment Scams, 6. Mortgage Foreclosure Rescue Scams, 7. Marketing-Investment Scams, 8. Inheritance Scams, 9. Phishing Scams and 10. Nigerian Scams.
Special Note: Not One Mention of "Illegal Aliens" on the Top 10 List!!
Breaking News Today: Yet another example of TRUE IDENTITY THEFT:
11 Charged in Connection with Credit Card Fraud By ANNE D'INNOCENZIO – 17 minutes ago
NEW YORK (AP) — The Department of Justice announced Tuesday that it had charged 11 people in connection with the hacking of nine major U.S. retailers and the theft and sale of more than 41 million credit and debit card numbers. It is believed to be the largest hacking and identity theft case ever prosecuted by the Department of Justice. The charges include conspiracy, computer intrusion, fraud and identity theft.
The indictment returned Tuesday by a federal grand jury in Boston alleges that the people charged hacked into the wireless computer networks of retailers including TJX Cos., BJ's Wholesale Club, OfficeMax, Boston Market, Barnes & Noble, Sports Authority, Forever 21 and DSW. The indictment alleges that the hackers installed programs to capture card numbers, passwords and account information, and then concealed the data in computer servers that they controlled in the U.S. and Eastern Europe. "They used sophisticated computer hacking techniques, that would allow them to breach security systems and install programs that gathered enormous quantities of personal financial data, which they then allegedly either sold to others or used themselves," said Attorney General Michael Mukasey in a press conference. "And in total, they caused widespread loses by banks, retailers, and consumers." Mukasey said the total dollar amount of the alleged theft is "impossible to quantify at this point." Sullivan said officials still haven't identified all the victims who had a credit or debit card number stolen. "I suspect that a lot of people are unaware that their identifying information has been compromised," he said. Sullivan said the alleged thieves weren't computer geniuses, just opportunists who used a technique called "wardriving," which involved cruising through different areas with a laptop computer and looking for accessible wireless Internet signals. Once they located a vulnerable network, they installed so-called "sniffer programs" that captured credit and debit card numbers as they moved through a retailer's processing networks.
The information was stored on two servers in Ukraine and Latvia — one with more than 25 million credit and debit card numbers and another with more than 16 million numbers, Sullivan said. The heist was a black eye for retailers like TJX. The company, which initially disclosed the data breach in January 2007, said a few months later that at least 45.7 million cards were exposed to possible fraud in a breach of its computer systems that began in July 2005. Court filings by some banks that sued TJX put the number of cards affected at more than 100 million, based on estimates by officials with Visa and MasterCard, who were deposed in the suit. In May, TJX said it won support from Mastercard-issuing banks for a settlement that will pay them as much as $24 million to cover costs from the data breach. A similar agreement reached last November with Visa-card issuing banks also was overwhelmingly approved. That agreement set aside as much as $40.9 million to help banks cover costs including replacing customers payment cards and covering fraudulent charges. Under the indictments unsealed Tuesday, three of the defendants are U.S. citizens, citizens from other countries include: one is from Estonia, three are from Ukraine, two are from China and one is from Belarus. One individual is only known by an alias online, and his place of origin is unknown.

56 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

When "Illegals" purchase 'work documentation' they have committed a crime. These numbers may be made up out of thin air or they may be actual numbers of actual people. It does not matter which, only that what they have done is against the law. Even one case of identity theft by an "Illegal" is more than enough. The point is, you can not deny that it happens by "Illegal Immigrants" whether they know it or not.

Liquidmicro said...

The false or made up SS Number is used to create a false identification and/or person. Thus it is named identity theft, whether there is a real person effected or not.

Liquidmicro said...

Identity document forgery is the process by which identity documents issued by governing bodies are copied and/or modified by persons not authorized to create such documents or engage in such modifications, for the purpose of deceiving those who would view the documents about the identity or status of the bearer. The term also encompasses the activity of acquiring identity documents from governing bodies by falsifying the required supporting documentation in order to create the desired identity.

Identity documents differ from other credentials in that they are intended only to be usable by the person holding the card. Unlike other credentials, they may be used to restrict the activities of the holder as well as to expand them.

Documents that have been forged in this way include driver's licenses (which historically have been forged or altered to conceal the fact that persons desiring to consume alcohol are under the legal drinking age), birth certificates and Social Security cards (likely used in identity theft schemes, or to defraud the government), and passports (used to evade restrictions on entry into a particular country).

Such falsified documents can be used for identity theft, age deception, illegal immigration, and organized crime.

Dee said...

Liquid, You know as well as I do that your side misuses terms. Identity theft is when someone uses your identity to obtain a credit card and charges it up. It is when someone uses your identity to obtain a loan, a car, a house, or purchases appliances. An identity thief might use your identity to commit crimes, steal, get married twice. This is identity theft. Your side always misuses terms, like Amnesty. Making up a fake number in order to work is NOT identity theft. Maybe you should call it "Make Up Number To Workism." This would be more applicable.

Dee said...

Americans are afraid of Identity Theft for TRUE Identity Theft, NOT for "Make Up Number To Workism."

Dee said...

And you know what, you can make up a special Civil Crime number up for the new crime of "Make Up Number To Workism."

Pro Inmigrant said...

Hi Dee, I am hoping that you are doing well?

Apparently Liquidmicro, doesn't get it right?.
Liquid, why you do not take off your mask of Ignorance?.
You are still criminalized and blamed undocumented Immigrants when they didn't steal the social security numbers.
They purchased at some point but never stealed the numbers or cards. Seems that you and the nativists, protectionists and Xenophobics are on denial stage about who's the real criminal of the problem towards to a comprehensive solution.
You just want to see your narrow minded point of view of the Law.
for your knowledge most of the Undocumented Immigrants are using ITIN's (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number). If not why the IRS has a surplus account of millions of dollars sitting there. Click here: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/apr/11/illegal-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes/

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/04/15/immigrant.taxes.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest
Undocumented Immigrants contributed $428 billion to economy in 2006.
And check this for your knowledge
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/05/card.fraud.charges/index.html?iref=topnews
I am hoping that you are taking off your mask of ignorance and being more constructive to a rational and comprehensive Immigration debate.

dianne said...

Well, what is it called when an illegal immigrant uses someone else's identity to work and then the real person gets a letter from the IRS demanding taxes from 5 or 6 different companies she's never worked for before? That happened right here in my little home town a couple of months ago. The victim lived nearby so she hopped in her car and drove right to the plant, saw a police officer on the way, and he accompanied her and arrested the thief. This was on the front page of the Kansas City Star. The employer, Engineered Air, said they couldn't be responsible for identity theft. The woman who was victimized is having all kinds of problems and the police said this isn't the first time he had arrested someone at the same plant.

Doesn't anybody care about the victims here?

Liquidmicro said...

Actually, Dee, the correct term is "Identity Fraud" when a made up number is used as it is intended to defraud for economic gain. Which means, if they purchase these documents and are working at a job from these documents, then they are involved in Identity Fraud/Theft.

And Pro, to purchase documentation is still against the law, no matter how you slice it. It seems you still can't place blame on them for knowing they need to purchase this documentation to work here, so there in lies the rub.

My narrow minded point of view?? My view is different than yours because I blame all involved and hold all accountable for their actions, you however treat them like children that can't make their own decisions, in essence you consider them incapable of making rational thought and condemn them to slavery for large companies. I believe the visa system was put in place to protect them, they chose not to use it and now are getting what they deserve, sorry you don't think it's fair for them, but hey thats what they chose to do, remember they're own thought process!

Ignorance on your behalf is no excuse for labeling those who's opinion differs from yours. Try arguing the point instead, it might make you a little more intelligible.

As for how much they supposedly contributed, do we really need to discuss all of this again? For every report you bring up saying the are a net positive, I can show they are a net negative.

There are many things we would all probably agree upon, however you wish to focus only on the aspects from your point of view. All I did with my previous postings was show the definition of what is "Identity Theft". Now are you ready to discuss this further by points or are you ready to start the name calling and pointing fingers?

da tiger said...

Here is a web site that has some of the topics that are in line with your current thread.

https://www.socialsecurity.gov/oig/

It is the Office of Inspector General, which audits the efficiency and effectiveness of the social security administration.
CLICK ON: Site Map
CLICK ON: Work Plan for Fiscal Year 2008
(The PDF version is much easier on the eyes to read.)
I was particularly interested in the part of the plan that recommends better collaboration with DHS on some employer verification issues, especially with some problems regarding e-verify. Also of interest, was a discussion of the “Earning Suspense File.” These are “wage reports for which wage earners' names and SSNs fail to match SSA's records.” Funds without a matching name will not go to any individual. This money will stay within the system, helping to keep it solvent. It has grown to $586 Billion between the years 1937 to 2004, with the year 2004 alone accounting for $66 Billion. They say that they are working on getting new computers and they need better legislation.

Dee said...

Sorry Liquid. You are wrong. The term is NOT Identity FRAUD or Identity Theft. In most cases, this has nothing to do with stealing or defrauding an identity.
I listed the TOP 10 perpetrators for those type of crimes. Most often, it is someone who electronically gains access to your private information and steals from you.

Those who are guilty of "Make Up Number To Workism" only very rarely accidently pick a number associated to a real person, as in that rare case that Dianne mentioned. (and in those rare circumstances, that is sad, but more of an administrative correction vs the THEFT by the TRUE IDENTITY Thieves and DeFrauders.

In most cases, as Da Tiger so nicely pointed out from the SS Administration website, the BILLIONS in tax revenues collected from users with the made up numbers are kept by the government and never returned.

Dee said...

Pro Inmigrant, Nice to see you back. Thank you for mentioning ITINs. Of course you are right.

patriot said...

What difference does it make when both scenarios are against the law? Many illegal aliens commit one or the other to work here.

As far as their tax dollars being in limbo..so what? They don't deserve to get it back. They don't even have the right to be in this country much less working here! The government should take those tax dollars and reimburse our state and local governments for their social costs.

Liquidmicro said...

As usual Dee, you point fingers. I gave the definition of what it is called, sorry you don't agree with it. However, any attorney you talk to will tell you the same as what I gave as a definition.

By purchasing an SS card, whether the number is someone else's or a number made up from thin air, they are committing identity fraud. They are becoming an alias with a forged government document.

Again, ask any attorney, they will tell you the same thing I just stated. My wife just went through the visa process and is now a naturalized citizen, I asked many questions while in ICE offices here in Sacramento.

Dee said...

Liquid, As I said, some of the workers are only possibly guilty of "Make Up Number To Workism" NOT "Identity Theft". We should call the civil crimes what they are and NOT make up False Charges just to scare the American Public.

Liquidmicro said...

Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 47 s.1028 of the U.S. Code. The unlawful use of identification documents is historically a federal offence.

The U.S. Congress passed the Identity Theft and Assumption Deterrence Act (2003) amending Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 47, s. 1028 to include the unlawful use of a "means of identification" [s,1028 (d)(7)] making it a federal crime alongside identification documents. The title of s.1028 is, "Fraud related to activity in connection with identification documents, authentication features, and information".

Punishments for the unlawful use of a "means of identification" were strengthened in s.1028a, allowing for a consecutive sentence under specific conditions of a felony violation defined in s. 1028c.

If used to commit another crime in the commission of identity theft in the United States (if charged federally) include:

* Class B Felony: 6-20 years in Jail and a fine up to $10,000
* Class C Felony: 2-8 years in Jail and a fine up to $10,000

If charges are brought by state or local law enforcement agencies, different penalties apply depending on the state.


Your ignorance of the actual laws, Dee and Pro, are no excuse. I suggest you do your research before calling others ignorant.

Liquidmicro said...

§ 1028. Fraud and related activity in connection with identification documents, authentication features, and information

(a) Whoever, in a circumstance described in subsection (c) of this section—
(1) knowingly and without lawful authority produces an identification document, authentication feature, or a false identification document;
(2) knowingly transfers an identification document, authentication feature, or a false identification document knowing that such document or feature was stolen or produced without lawful authority;
(3) knowingly possesses with intent to use unlawfully or transfer unlawfully five or more identification documents (other than those issued lawfully for the use of the possessor), authentication features, or false identification documents;
(4) knowingly possesses an identification document (other than one issued lawfully for the use of the possessor), authentication feature, or a false identification document, with the intent such document or feature be used to defraud the United States;
(5) knowingly produces, transfers, or possesses a document-making implement or authentication feature with the intent such document-making implement or authentication feature will be used in the production of a false identification document or another document-making implement or authentication feature which will be so used;
(6) knowingly possesses an identification document or authentication feature that is or appears to be an identification document or authentication feature of the United States or a sponsoring entity of an event designated as a special event of national significance which is stolen or produced without lawful authority knowing that such document or feature was stolen or produced without such authority;
(7) knowingly transfers, possesses, or uses, without lawful authority, a means of identification of another person with the intent to commit, or to aid or abet, or in connection with, any unlawful activity that constitutes a violation of Federal law, or that constitutes a felony under any applicable State or local law; or
(8) knowingly traffics in false or actual authentication features for use in false identification documents, document-making implements, or means of identification;
shall be punished as provided in subsection (b) of this section.


Please, do your own homework from now on. Sections 4 and 6 are the ones against "Illegal Immigrants", while the others are for the 'makers' of these false documents.

Dee said...

Liquid, The Facts are, Americans are worried about IDENTITY THEFT and NOT "Make Up Number To Workism".

We should call the civil crimes what they are and NOT make up False Charges just to scare the American Public.

Liquidmicro said...

There are no false charges!!!! My god you are daft today. US Code says its against the law, there are NO made up false charges. Your excuses for these people are fallacies.

Dee said...

Liquid, I do not doubt that "Make Up Number To Workism" is a Civil Crime, just like not having your insurance certificate in the car.

Liquidmicro said...

It's a FEDERAL OFFENSE!! It could be found to be a FELONY and receive up to 15 years in Prison. Civil Offense only if State enforcement is prosecuting in only certain states.

(b) The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) of this section is—
(1) except as provided in paragraphs (3) and (4), a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than 15 years, or both, if the offense is—
(A) the production or transfer of an identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document that is or appears to be—
(i) an identification document or authentication feature issued by or under the authority of the United States; or
(ii) a birth certificate, or a driver’s license or personal identification card;


(c) The circumstance referred to in subsection (a) of this section is that—
(1) the identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document is or appears to be issued by or under the authority of the United States or a sponsoring entity of an event designated as a special event of national significance or the document-making implement is designed or suited for making such an identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document;
(2) the offense is an offense under subsection (a)(4) of this section;

(d)(4) the term “false identification document” means a document of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purposes of identification of individuals that—
(A) is not issued by or under the authority of a governmental entity or was issued under the authority of a governmental entity but was subsequently altered for purposes of deceit; and
(B) appears to be issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, a political subdivision of a State, a sponsoring entity of an event designated by the President as a special event of national significance, a foreign government, a political subdivision of a foreign government, or an international governmental or quasi-governmental organization;
(5) the term “false authentication feature” means an authentication feature that—
(A) is genuine in origin, but, without the authorization of the issuing authority, has been tampered with or altered for purposes of deceit;
(B) is genuine, but has been distributed, or is intended for distribution, without the authorization of the issuing authority and not in connection with a lawfully made identification document, document-making implement, or means of identification to which such authentication feature is intended to be affixed or embedded by the respective issuing authority; or
(C) appears to be genuine, but is not;
(6) the term “issuing authority”—
(A) means any governmental entity or agency that is authorized to issue identification documents, means of identification, or authentication features; and
(B) includes the United States Government, a State, a political subdivision of a State, a sponsoring entity of an event designated by the President as a special event of national significance, a foreign government, a political subdivision of a foreign government, or an international government or quasi-governmental organization;
(7) the term “means of identification” means any name or number that may be used, alone or in conjunction with any other information, to identify a specific individual, including any—
(A) name, social security number, date of birth, official State or government issued driver’s license or identification number, alien registration number, government passport number, employer or taxpayer identification number;

Da Tiger said...

From Latina Lista
Posted by Evelyn | 11 de Julio 2008 a las 02:56 AM
Evelyn posted the following account in its entirety:
INTERPRETING AFTER THE LARGEST ICE RAID IN US HISTORY:
A PERSONAL ACCOUNT
Erik Camayd-Freixas, Ph.D.
Florida International University
June 13, 2008

Here is an excerpt:

“Created by Congress in an Act of 1998, the new federal offense of identity theft, as described by the DOJ (http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/websites/idtheft.html), bears no relation to the Postville cases. It specifically states: "knowingly uses a means of identification of another person with the intent to commit any unlawful activity or felony" [18 USC §1028(a)]. The offense clearly refers to harmful, felonious acts, such as obtaining credit under another person's identity. Obtaining work, however, is not an "unlawful activity." No way would a grand jury find probable cause of identity theft here. But with the promise of faster deportation, their ignorance of the legal system, and the limited opportunity to consult with counsel before arraignment, all the workers, without exception, were led to waive their 5th Amendment right to grand jury indictment on felony charges. Waiting for a grand jury meant months in jail on an immigration detainer, without the possibility of bail. So the attorneys could not recommend it as a defense strategy. Similarly, defendants have the right to a status hearing before a judge, to determine probable cause, within ten days of arraignment, but their Plea Agreement offer from the government was only good for... seven days. Passing it up, meant risking 2 years in jail. As a result, the frivolous charge of identity theft was assured never to undergo the judicial test of probable cause. Not only were defendants and judges bound to accept the Plea Agreement, there was also absolutely no defense strategy available to counsel. Once the inflated charge was handed down, all the pieces fell into place like a row of dominoes. Even the court was banking on it when it agreed to participate, because if a good number of defendants asked for a grand jury or trial, the system would be overwhelmed. In short, "fast-tracking" had worked like a dream. “

dianne said...

Liquid - You can cite law all day long but the pro crowd doesn't care about the U.S. law unless they believe it violates them.

Mexico is a corrupt country. The people born there grow up in a society where they expect the officials and police are openly corrupt and they simply pay them off or engage in corruption themselves to escape punishment. It's so normal that to think we in this country have laws that actually mean something doesn't register with them.

Da Tiger said...

Two key points here.
1. Each section of the law starts off with "knowingly." The author is an interpreter and noted that the illegals thought that they were being charged with being in this country illegally, but had no idea they were being charged with identity theft.
2. The maximum charge that was going to be levied if anyone decided to fight their case was going to be two years.

ultima said...

"Identity theft is when someone uses your identity to obtain a credit card and charges it up."

I see we have a new Merriam Webster in the making -- making up her own definitions to fit her arguments. It obviously depends on how broadly one wishes to define "identity theft". Maybe that is a good umbrella term within which we can define "identity fraud", "identity misappropriation","physical identity theft", "identity theft for purposes of financial gain", "illegal alien identity theft", etc.

Dee tries very hard to make arguments to justify illegal behavior no matter what you call it. An illegal alien has to commit murder, rape, robbery, larceny or mayhem before she demonstrates any concern. She dismisses fraudulent use of documents as of no consequence. That is the main difference, not the definitions.

I have always felt that the term "amnesty" was fully justified by the fact that none of the CIR proposals required the miscreants to come into compliance with the law as a condition of their being excused. Such compliance would require them to return to their homelands and stay there until they are admitted legally when their turns comes up after all those who had applied before them. I see this as the essential element that is missing from the position of those who say, "Well, as long as any penalty is imposed, even if it is just a slap on the wrist, that technically is not amnesty." Clearly this is a case where the penalty must fit the crime. If illegals are to be forgiven, they must return to compliance with the law by retracing their steps and doing it right. If they do this, no other penalty need by applied, no fine, no language requirement, no five year residency, none. If you follow the rules from that day forward, that is all that is required to be granted immunity from prosecution.

When a library grants amnesty there is no penalty except the requirement that you bring the books back, i.e. come into compliance with the library rules. Bringing overdue books back is no more of a penalty than it is to expect people to comply with all the laws of the land without additional inducements.

Considering the numbers of illegals who are probably working under fraudulent or stolen ids, ssns, etc., the word "massive" seems entirely applicable in their case as well as the scheme that recently hit the headlines.

This tortured attempt to find an essential difference has failed dramatically.

ultima said...

Why not accept a reasonable umbrella definition of identity theft as follows: "Any attempt to invent, forge, buy, steal, or create false identity papers including but not limited to drivers' licenses,green cards, utility bills, voter registration, social security numbers and cards, passports and visas for the purpose of financial gain, illegal entry, or other purposes contrary to law."

ultima said...

"identity theft is a term used to refer to fraud that involves stealing money or getting other benefits by pretending to be someone else."

Wikipedia

I suggest that "getting other benefits" is exactly what illegals are doing with their false ssns, etc. Chief among these benefits is the opportunity to work. Others include access to hospitals, emergency rooms, schools, etc. Gaining access to a country without fully committing to it or giving up allegiance to another country is certainly another benefit of considerable importance.

Game, set, match.

Liquidmicro said...

Actually Tiger, thats about the third time Evelyn has posted that entire opinion piece on Marrisa's blog. Now to get technical, your piece is dated the "Created by Congress in an Act of 1998" where in mine is dated to the The U.S. Congress passed the Identity Theft and Assumption Deterrence Act (2003) amending Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 47, s. 1028 to include the unlawful use of a "means of identification" [s,1028 (d)(7)] making it a federal crime alongside identification documents. The title of s.1028 is, "Fraud related to activity in connection with identification documents, authentication features, and information".

So in all accounts, mine being more up to date then yours, really nullifies yours altogether now doesn't it, or do you just want to pick and choose time frames?

Liquidmicro said...

The word knowingly is a very good word, as most of the "Illegal Immigrants" 'know' that in order to work in the USA they either need a visa or work documents. They 'know' they have to obtain these documents and regularly purchase them from persons creating them. Therefor, the word 'knowingly' describes their exact circumstances, as they knowingly, in most instances, purchased these documents.

It's just like the HR department at Agriprocesor's, they knowingly hired "Illegal Immigrants" and sold some of them false documentation. They, too, will be held accountable for their actions.

Liquidmicro said...

From your own post Tiger:

"But with the promise of faster deportation, their ignorance of the legal system, and the limited opportunity to consult with counsel before arraignment, all the workers, without exception, were led to waive their 5th Amendment right to grand jury indictment on felony charges. Waiting for a grand jury meant months in jail on an immigration detainer, without the possibility of bail."

There is something about this sentence that agrees with exactly what I have posted:
"waive their 5th Amendment right to grand jury indictment on felony charges."

Dee said...

Liquid, No matter how you try to stretch it, the Federal Offense of “identity theft” does not include "Make Up Number To Workism.”
In Postville for example, there was never any “production or transfer of an identification document.” In Postville the workers didn’t even make up the numbers. The HR department made up the numbers. Additionally, no one was stealing an identity. They were making up numbers, some of which happened to belong to others.
Clearly, as Ulty suggests, a new term needs to be applied rather than attempt to have this civil offense covered under the ID Theft umbrella.

Dee said...

Dianne, I am NOT saying anyone should go scot free. I am saying let the punishment fit the crime. "Make Up Number To Workism” should be considered a civil offense and treated as such. They violated the terms of the Law in Postville when they wrongfully conficted the Guatemalan workers in Postville when they penalized them with swift cattle barn injustice!

Dee said...

Da Tiger,
I agree.
Under the letter of the law, "Make Up Number To Workism” does not equal Identity Theft.

Thank you for bringing over the info from my comadre Latina Lista.

Dee said...

Ulty, I do agree with the point you made about various terms being BROADLY identified. (“it depends on how broadly one wishes to define "identity theft") Your side tends to utilize such trigger words like “Identity Theft” and “Amnesty” to push your “Rule of Law” agenda (which is to instill Fear in every day Americans).

I think it is important we do use correct terms such as "Make Up Number To Workism.” (And I dont mind you calling me Ms. Merriam). That way we take the innaccuracies (which lead to anger) out of these discussions.

And Ulty, I prefer: love... point, set, match!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee, your as dense as a brick wall. Nothing I have said has stretched anything. I have given you the exact US Code and its wording. Your inability to understand its wording is your lack of comprehension and ignorance.

Agriprocessor's is a unique case, there were approximately 900 workers with arrest warrants for which only approximately 400 workers were arrested. Of the 900 workers, the HR dept had approximately 100 forged ID documents, but only 12 of those documents had workers names or pictures on them. That means the rest of them had to have some other form of ID that they purchased, as many articles states, in order to work there.

All of this means that 1 in 9 workers had Agriprocessor's forged documents which comes down to out of approximately the 400 workers 360 had made up documentation that they themselves purchased. Now what are the numbers in the 'cattle barn justice'? How many were given 5 months? Its simple math, figure it out.

patriot said...

Hmm, I have never heard of honoring the rule of law being described as an "agenda." I thought it ethical and desirable.

Dee said...

Liquid,

Uuuuuhhh, No.
You are Leeeeaaaaapppping to your own Conclusions here Liquid.

It is clear the HR dept was supplying the phony IDs. They were most likely restocking since their company was fully staffed prior to the raids.


Liquids Leeaappp:
Of the 900 workers, the HR dept had approximately 100 forged ID documents, but only 12 of those documents had workers names or pictures on them. That means the rest of them had to have some other form of ID that they purchased, as many articles states, in order to work there.

Dee said...

Pat, Pat, Pat,
Your ANTI agenda uses Trigger Words. All of you have been well schooled to use the same verbiage.
ANTI Trigger Words include: Amnesty, Identity Theft, Rule of Law, Anchor Babies, Suppression Sweeps, limited resources, and on and on it goes.

Most Americans dont use the term "Rule of Law." They might say law, break the law, but only your agenda includes these trigger words right from your ANTI scripts.

Liquidmicro said...

Last year, another Iowa attorney used that argument in court (Dee, Pro, and Tigers). Gary Koos' client had been arrested at a concrete company after buying an ID off the street in order to fill out employment forms. Koos didn't think that fit the crime of aggravated identity theft.

"If you want to think of it in legal terms, it would be that a person has to be put upon notice of what the crime is," Koos said. "And in this case, it's knowingly to use someone else's identity. My client didn't know he had someone else's Social Security number, he just had a number."

Koos lost the case on appeal, and his immigrant client is now serving five years in federal prison. But Koos' argument has been backed by other appeals courts — and he thinks the Supreme Court may need to resolve the dispute.

The issue is coming up more often because of another part of the Bush administration's immigration crackdown. More and more companies are using a federal computer program that can detect fake Social Security numbers. But it can't tell when real numbers are used by another person — which has fueled a growing market for stolen IDs.

"The issue is whether people using false identifications should be held accountable for that," said Bob Teig, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's office in northern Iowa, which prosecuted the Agriprocessors case.

Teig said he didn't know whether any of the workers charged with aggravated ID theft had used Social Security numbers for anything but work. But that's not the point, he said.

"The point is, by the time it happens it's too late. The statute is not just designed to punish, the statute is designed to prevent," Teig said.

Anonymous said...

dee,

Your side's trigger words are undocumented immigrants(illegal aliens), birthright citizenship(never meant for an illegal invasion-was to insure Blacks citizenship after the
Civil War, make up number to workism(identity theft).

Liquidmicro said...

You talk of my leaping, what of yours? That Agriprocessor's supplied "all" the workers with documentation? That they were just restocking?

Lets be honest Dee, some were given by Agriprocessor's, some were not. Which is exactly what I stated earlier, except I gave the numbers from the articles.

Dee said...

Liquid, You lept, I merely replied.

Liquidmicro said...

From a worker at Agriprocessors:

Meanwhile, former workers at the Postville plant are speaking out about alleged conditions there, often at the prompting of union officials that have flooded the town in the wake of the raid.

A girl who would agree to be identified only as Yolanda said she was 15 years old when she left her home in Iztapa, Guatemala, late last year and illegally crossed the U.S. border into Texas. Within weeks she had arrived in Postville, where she found work in the Agriprocessors plant.

Yolanda told JTA that "she produced a fake government ID card that showed her to be 18 years old." She pulled 11-hour graveyard shifts bagging chicken breasts and removing turkey feathers -- difficult work that she said led to a hand injury from constant use of scissors. Supervisors routinely pressured the workers to move faster, she said.



So you see, she came with her documentation already, this confirms exactly what I stated.

Now, again show where it is that I lept at anything!!?? The only one leaping here is you, leaping to protect people who by their own choices came here, purchased false documentation, got drivers licenses where they could based on this false documentation, obtained work, and then get in trouble for it, for which you cry fowl?

Back on topic, please show where anything I have posted is factually incorrect.

Liquidmicro said...

But wait, here is another one from the same article:

Joel Rucal said he went to work at Agriprocessors after finishing the eighth grade. He said he paid $150 for a fake ID and took a job paying $8.75 an hour to work in quality control. Sometimes he worked 12-hour shifts through the night checking the temperature of the meat.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

Liquid,

Uuuuuhhh, No.
You are Leeeeaaaaapppping to your own Conclusions here Liquid.

It is clear the HR dept was supplying the phony IDs. They were most likely restocking since their company was fully staffed prior to the raids.


Seems to me that the HR dept. had a racket going on to make money off the people that worked at the plant.

" Immigration agents said in court papers that several former plant workers who were in the United States illegally said Guerrero-Espinoza told them that they needed new cards and Social Security numbers and that they should give him $200 to $220 and a photograph of themselves.

The workers told authorities that a few days later, an unidentified human resources employee handed them the false cards."

After receiving SS no match letters, Espinoza saw $$ in his eyes, selling 'new cards' and 'SS numbers'. These are the 12 cards with pictures and the 100 total cards they found during the search warrant at Agriprocessor's.

Liquidmicro said...

An immigration lawyer representing 49 of the former plant workers said the allegations dovetail with what her clients have told her. Sonia Parras Konrad, who works for the Benzoni firm in Des Moines, said former workers told her that in the weeks before the raid, supervisors told them that they had to pay for new identification cards. "The choice was pay $200 and get a new card or be fired," she said. Supervisors did not say why the new cards were needed, but they reportedly offered to let the workers borrow the money, if need be, she said.

Dee said...

Readers, I am getting a number of posts on my Fence post which are not displaying. For some reason they are being backlogged. My apologies. I am reporting this to eBlogger.

patriot said...

dee, you have more used more trigger words in here than liquid, ultima or myself combined. How about "heinous" just for starters? I can dig up plenty more that you have used.

The terms you mentioned we use are actual words used to describe the situation. Your trigger words are just exaggerations.

Dee said...

Liquid, What you are missing is, how is it that so many Guatamalens came to Postville and many of them were provided fake IDs, Green Cards? Do you think it was an accident? Remember. Agriprocessors hires HR Contractors that solicit Latin countries for workers, legal or illegal.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee asks:?
"how is it that so many Guatamalens came to Postville and many of them were provided fake IDs, Green Cards?"

So many Guatemalans, lets see... from the articles I can conclude that many were family members, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc. So, oh I don't know, quick guess,.... word of mouth through family members...friends maybe?? The ad placed by employment agencies in Guatemala requiring them to have the proper visa??

So, as you can see, I see many ways for them to end up there and all contributed, you rely to much on just one damning issue vs open eyes and the whole picture.

patriot said...

You are correct, liquid. The agency placed ads for employment requiring a viaa to come here. So no, they aren't advertising for illegal workers. Dee is so anxious to put the blame on everyone else but the illegals themselves that she is blinded by her ethnocentricism. The blame is on everyone involved.

Dee said...

Pat, Nope.
Remember the Staffing Co. Agriprocessors uses in McAllen, TX. They bring in both American and Latin workers. In todays closely watched activity, they "say" they solicit only legally eligible workers, but that was not the case in the past.

patriot said...

Yet, you accused this latest hiring agency that Agri-processors has hired of doing the same thing. When clearly they are not. They are using the e-verify system and are under close scrutiny.

Ben Wright said...

Careful reading of the indictments of the TJX data thieves show that the media, card issuers and Federal Trade Commission over-reacted to the TJX incident. The TJX break-in was not as bad as we were led to believe. --Ben http://legal-beagle.typepad.com/wrights_legal_beagle/2008/08/credit-card-iss.html

Dee said...

Thank you for the update Ben. Welcome to my blog. I like your blog too. Can you tell us who the Top 10 culprits of Identity Theft are in our country? Ive read that they are relatives, cyber thiefs, mail thiefs, etc. Can you give us your expert opinion?

Dee said...

Are you happy now Liquid? Are you happy the jocks got away with murder? Sad case. I feel sorry for the wife and children.

I wonder what will happen next.

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