About 30 Peaceful Marchers, believing in their 1st Ammendment right to protest, gathered outside the courthouse chanting their call for Justice! Hearings for three in Shenandoah beating interrupted briefly by Latino demonstrators in Pottsville
Chanting by demonstrators from Latino groups temporarily interrupted hearings this morning in the Schuylkill County Courthouse for three Shenandoah teenagers accused in the fatal beating of a Mexican national. About 30 demonstrators were outside the courthouse in Pottsville, but their chanting could be heard inside the courthouse and the hearings were stopped. Sheriff's officials went outside and spoke to the demonstrators, who stopped their chants. Prosecutors say the defendants and another teen who has been charged as a juvenile kicked and punched Luis Ramirez into a coma on West Lloyd Street on July 12.Ramirez lived mostly in Shenandoah since he entered the U.S. illegally six years ago. According to prosecutors: The defendants, some of whom had been drinking, began the confrontation by taunting Ramirez with racial slurs.They continued to yell ethnic insults during the attack and kept beating Ramirez after he was unconscious.Ramirez died two days later in Geisinger Medical Center in Danville.Brandon Piekarsky, 16, and Colin Walsh, 17, were charged with homicide, ethnic intimidation and other offenses. Derrick Donchak, 18, was charged with aggravated assault, ethnic intimidation and other offenses.Charges are pending in juvenile court against another 17-year-old from Shenandoah.
Read the Timeline of Event from the Warrant (From Previous Article)
More Updates Posted HERE as the hearing continues.
TRUTH COMES OUT DURING HEARING!!!
Pa. teen testifies at hearing in immigrant killing
A Pennsylvania teenager has testified against two friends charged in the beating death of a Mexican immigrant in a small Pennsylvania town. Seventeen-year-old Ben Lawson is a football player at Shenandoah Valley High School. He says 17-year-old Colin Walsh sucker-punched Luis Ramirez and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky kicked the victim in the head while he was down. Prosecutors charged Walsh and Piekarsky in the illegal immigrant's death and say they also shouted racial slurs at the victim. A third suspect is charged with aggravated assault. A judge is deciding if there is enough evidence against the three to send the case to trial.
Ramirez was attacked July 12 when he crossed paths with a group of teens in the town of Shenandoah, about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia.
A Pennsylvania teenager has testified against two friends charged in the beating death of a Mexican immigrant in a small Pennsylvania town. Seventeen-year-old Ben Lawson is a football player at Shenandoah Valley High School. He says 17-year-old Colin Walsh sucker-punched Luis Ramirez and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky kicked the victim in the head while he was down. Prosecutors charged Walsh and Piekarsky in the illegal immigrant's death and say they also shouted racial slurs at the victim. A third suspect is charged with aggravated assault. A judge is deciding if there is enough evidence against the three to send the case to trial.
Ramirez was attacked July 12 when he crossed paths with a group of teens in the town of Shenandoah, about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia.
Testifying in a low, mumbly voice, (football player) Ben Lawson said he had been drinking malt liquor in the woods with Walsh, Piekarsky, Donchak and other friends a few hours before the attack. He said he drank two 40-ounce bottles and was intoxicated. Lawson, 17, said the group encountered Ramirez, 25, and a teenage girl in a park. He said another teen, Brian Scully, goaded the girl, saying, "Isn't it a little late for you to be out?"
Ramirez replied in a threatening manner in Spanish. Scully began yelling racial slurs at Ramirez and a fight ensued, Lawson said. He said Ramirez was fighting with Donchak when Walsh ran up and (sucker) punched him in the face. Ramirez fell to the ground and hit his head on the macadam, leaving him unconscious, after which Piekarsky kicked him in the head (fatal blow), Lawson said. The following day, he said, the group met at Piekarsky's house and hatched a plan to lie to police about what happened. "We made up a plan that we we're going to tell the cops that nobody kicked him, that there were no racial slurs, there was no booze, and Brian got hit first," Lawson said.
Ramirez replied in a threatening manner in Spanish. Scully began yelling racial slurs at Ramirez and a fight ensued, Lawson said. He said Ramirez was fighting with Donchak when Walsh ran up and (sucker) punched him in the face. Ramirez fell to the ground and hit his head on the macadam, leaving him unconscious, after which Piekarsky kicked him in the head (fatal blow), Lawson said. The following day, he said, the group met at Piekarsky's house and hatched a plan to lie to police about what happened. "We made up a plan that we we're going to tell the cops that nobody kicked him, that there were no racial slurs, there was no booze, and Brian got hit first," Lawson said.
BREAKING NEWS - AP REPORTS :
3 Pa. teens ordered to trial in immigrant's death
By MICHAEL RUBINKAM – 19 minutes ago
POTTSVILLE, Pa. (AP) — A judge has ordered three teenagers to stand trial on charges related to the beating death of a Mexican immigrant in a small eastern Pennsylvania town. A judge in Pottsville said Monday that prosecutors have enough evidence to try 17-year-old Colin Walsh and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky on counts of third-degree murder and ethnic intimidation. Eighteen-year-old Derrick Donchak has been ordered to stand trial on aggravated assault, ethnic intimidation and other offenses. Luis Ramirez was attacked July 12 when he crossed paths with a group of teens in the town of Shenandoah, about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia. All three defendants were football players at Shenandoah Valley High School.
POTTSVILLE, Pa. (AP) — A judge has ordered three teenagers to stand trial on charges related to the beating death of a Mexican immigrant in a small eastern Pennsylvania town. A judge in Pottsville said Monday that prosecutors have enough evidence to try 17-year-old Colin Walsh and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky on counts of third-degree murder and ethnic intimidation. Eighteen-year-old Derrick Donchak has been ordered to stand trial on aggravated assault, ethnic intimidation and other offenses. Luis Ramirez was attacked July 12 when he crossed paths with a group of teens in the town of Shenandoah, about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia. All three defendants were football players at Shenandoah Valley High School.
Final Update (It breaks my heart):
Also testifying was Elizabeth Schlack of Shenandoah. She said she heard noise and looked out her window. From about 80 feet away, she said, she saw three people kicking a man on the ground. The kicking went on for about two minutes, she said.
Posts
137 comments:
Get them for littering.
Anon,
You should be ashamed!
The TRUTH has come out during the hearing!!
"Pa. teen testifies at hearing in immigrant killing
A Pennsylvania teenager has testified against two friends charged in the beating death of a Mexican immigrant in a small Pennsylvania town.
Seventeen-year-old Ben Lawson is a football player at Shenandoah Valley High School. He says 17-year-old Colin Walsh sucker-punched Luis Ramirez and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky kicked the victim in the head while he was down.
Prosecutors charged Walsh and Piekarsky in the illegal immigrant's death and say they also shouted racial slurs at the victim. A third suspect is charged with aggravated assault.
A judge is deciding if there is enough evidence against the three to send the case to trial.
Ramirez was attacked July 12 when he crossed paths with a group of teens in the town of Shenandoah, about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia."
What lead up to the sucker punch? You are giving detail that have been placed already into the given situation. How about details to the beginning.
That Pennsylvania teen could also be one of the two teen girls on side with Rameriz. Arielle Garcia or the 15-year-old female relative of Crystal Dillman. So far, as no greater details have emerged, you are but second guessing to anything that may have actually happened, as the judge is deciding if there is enough evidence against the three to send the case to trial.
Liquid,
This is Today´s COURT TESTIMONY.
It was just reported and I posted the link on the blog. This was NOT a friend of the deceased. It was a friend of the football players, another football player.
"Seventeen-year-old Ben Lawson is a football player at Shenandoah Valley High School. He says 17-year-old Colin Walsh sucker-punched Luis Ramirez and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky kicked the victim in the head while he was down."
This part explains why the fight ensued: Lawson, 17, said the group encountered Ramirez, 25, and a teenage girl in a park. He said another teen, Brian Scully, goaded the girl, saying, "Isn't it a little late for you to be out?"
Ramirez replied in a threatening manner in Spanish. Scully began yelling racial slurs at Ramirez and a fight ensued, Lawson said.
The goading part wasn't enough for Ramirez to reply in a threatening manner in Spanish to prompt the boys to insult and subsequently fight him. Rameriz would have done better to keep his mouth shut and continue about his business with the girl back to his house.
This part: after which Piekarsky kicked him in the head (fatal blow), Lawson said. Should have the wording (fatal blow) removed since it is nothing more than your assertion. Your adding to the information is very biased on your behalf, you want fair and equal treatment yet you input biased opinion that has no bearing on the actual case or facts.
Liquid,
That is silly. No one of the players knew what he was saying. It was in spanish. This is NOT provacation unless you are about to commit a HATE CRIME as they did.
Seems like you are trying to rationalize "goading" with a tone of voice one could not understand.
Liquid, The Medical Examiner said the kick in the head was the FATAL BLOW. Go back and google.
Imagine you being "goaded" by a dozen muscle bound jocks. You say Leave Us Alone! But they cant understand you. You and one of them get into a fight. Then one of the other muscle bound jocks sucker punches you in the face. Knocks you out. While another kicks you in the head while you are passed out. The medical examiner says that was the fatal blow that KILLED YOU!! Imagine!! Now KNOW this is what happened to Ramirez!! Murder is Murder!!
It wasn't murder as he was still alive for 2 days after and only died after complications in surgery.
Rameriz may have been speaking Spanish, but most American teenagers know and understand a few words in Spanish, especially the foul words. Your assumption that none of them could understand what he was saying is just that, your assumption, just like your assumption of murder.
A gang of jocks chasing down a young man and young girl then kicking him in the head to kill him.
That is wrong. They should be prosecuted!
Let JUSTICE be Served!!
Your assertions again Dee: The medical examiner says that was the fatal blow that KILLED YOU!! Imagine!! Now KNOW this is what happened to Ramirez!! Murder is Murder!!
When, from your own links it states the following: Ramirez lapsed into a coma and died two days later in Geisinger Medical Center, Danville, of head injuries.
Ramirez was taken to St. Catherine Medical Center in Ashland, then flown to Geisinger Medical Center in Danville, where he underwent surgery for head injuries.
His condition worsened and he died July 14 at 6:38 a.m.
Nobody chased anybody down according to the testimony. More exaggerating on your behalf. Goading of the girl, Ramirez running his mouth, racial epithets, fight, sucker punch, kick in the head, walk away.
Be careful your biasness is showing!!
The Judge found probable cause for this to go to Trial for them to be charged with 3rd degree Murder and Ethnic Intimidation.
May Justice be Served!
Liquid, How could Ramirez walk away when the kick in the head killed him, as the medical examiner said. It is you that is showing your bias.
The boys walked away.
The examiner never said the kick killed Ramirez. The examiner said he died from head injuries, which may very well have happened during the surgery.
Some homicide charges dropped in immigrant death case
POTTSVILLE - Prosecutors today withdrew first- and second-degree homicide charges against two teenagers accused in the beating death of an illegal immigrant from Mexico in a dark Shenandoah park.
But charges of third-degree homicide and aggravated assault were held for court against Colin J. Walsh, 17, and Brandon J. Piekarsky, 16, in the death of Luis Ramirez, 25. The more significant homicide charges were dropped because prosecutors said they didn't have the evidence to support them.
A third teenager, Derrick Donchak, 18, will face aggravated assault charges in Schuylkill County Court. All three teenagers played on the Shenandoah High School football team last year. Donchak was the quarterback.
There was no ruling by a judge at a preliminary hearing today on charges of ethnic intimidation against the teens, all of Shenandoah.
The judge still ordered them to stand trial.
I dont see how you can say they walked away!
AP says the criminals were charged with counts of third-degree murder and ethnic intimidation. Your article said they were NOT charged with ethnic intimidation. one is wrong.
Arizonian, Murder is Murder, even in the 3rd degree! Plus they are charged with ethnic intimidation. If the young man they murdered was White, this murder would have never happened! That is clear!
They walked away from the fight, it was a chronological order I gave of the events. I'm willing to bet they get involuntary manslaughter, vs third degree homicide.
What exactly does this mean, Dee: If the young man they murdered was White, this murder would have never happened! That is clear!
That makes no since whatsoever.
Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes
CRIMES AND OFFENSES (TITLE 18)
§ 2710. Ethnic intimidation.
(a) Offense defined.--A person commits the offense of ethnic intimidation if, with malicious intention toward the race, color, religion or national origin of another individual or group of individuals, he commits an offense under any other provision of this article or under Chapter 33 (relating to arson, criminal mischief and other property destruction) exclusive of section 3307 (relating to institutional vandalism) or under section 3503 (relating to criminal trespass) or under section 5504 (relating to harassment by communication or address) with respect to such individual or his or her property or with respect to one or more members of such group or to their property.
(b) Grading--An offense under this section shall be classified as a misdemeanor of the third degree if the other offense is classified as a summary offense. Otherwise, an offense under this section shall be classified one degree higher in the classification specified in section 106 (relating to classes of offenses) than the classification of the other offense.
(c) Definition.--As used in this section "malicious intention" means the intention to commit any act, the commission of which is a necessary element of any offense referred to in subsection (a) motivated by hatred toward the race, color, religion or national origin of another individual or group of individuals.
My articles ruling states: There was no ruling by a judge at a preliminary hearing today on charges of ethnic intimidation against the teens, all of Shenandoah.
Of course it does Liquid.
The whole reason they began the taunts was because the Mexican boy was walking with the White girl.
Remember the retired police officer who heard all the taunts "Go back to Mexico!"
The Medical Examiner already said the Kick in the Head killed him!!
The sucker punch knocked him out!!
The only thing I will say in the murderers defense is, I am sure the alcohol contributed to their crimes. Whoever provided them the booze is just as guilty! However their racist views were a big part of it as well.
In the last suburb I lived in, parents who allowed their underage children to drink in their home or any adult providing them liquor are guilty of a felony and jailed!
Ok Liquid. I have a question for you. Can the FBI step in here and charge them with a Federal Hate Crime? Is this possible? Seems like I have read of this occurring when the local courts did not charge appropriately.
wow, beat someone bad enough that the result is death but oops, they clung to life just long enough to not call it murder, "It wasn't murder as he was still alive for 2 days after and only died after complications in surgery."
stupid, idiotic
OK lmj, prove the kick killed him and not that complications arose from the surgery. Until then it is mere opinion. The kick may have caused head injuries, but it has not been proven at all that he kick was what killed him as he did not die at the scene. It could have been numerous injuries he received during the fight. Internal bleeding may have caused a blood clot that was missed during head surgery, thusly causing death. So, until it is determined the actual cause of death, and given as factual testimony, one can only make assumptions, such as your idiotic and stupid drivel. But we all know how you think, if Dee says its a "murder" you (the sheep that you are) flock right to her. So be careful when you expose your biasness, it makes you look ignorant. Until then I suggest you brush up on some law courses and learn how it all works, better yet learn to read and search as to what the actual facts of this case are as presented by the media and court documentation. I'm willing to bet you have never been involved in court proceedings, or for that matter have ever been to a court proceeding.
Dee says:
"The whole reason they began the taunts was because the Mexican boy was walking with the White girl."
The only statements that were made was, according to the testimony given, Brian Scully, goaded the girl, saying, "Isn't it a little late for you to be out?"
It had nothing to do with the "Mexican Man" (who was sitting in the park waiting for the girl) as she walked past the group of delinquents. The "Mexican Man" tried to defend her 'honor' by speaking whatever in Spanish which taunted the boys back (all under the age of 18 with the exception of one).
Now please Dee, show us the phrase where the medical examiner specifically states that the kick in the head killed Ramirez!!
You claim their racist views, while I say, until it is determined as to what Ramirez said to provoke the fight, you have no claim to call it a racist instigation on these boys behalf.
My points being, that you have jumped to conclusions and condemned these boys without hearing the actual evidence, therefor you have reached a verdict without just cause and impose sentencing not in conjunction with the actual crime, with your opinionated statements, Dee and lmj.
Here is what the learned Prosecutor said:
"According to prosecutors:
The defendants, some of whom had been drinking, BEGAN the confrontation by taunting Ramirez with racial slurs.
They continued to yell ethnic insults during the attack and kept beating Ramirez after he was unconscious.
Ramirez died two days later in Geisinger Medical Center in Danville. "
Arizonian,
The Medical Examiner has said, the final Kick In The Head killed Ramirez.
Piekarsky is the ONE that should be convicted of this crime!
Again, Dee, you are reporting what was already into the actions, go back to the beginning. The 15 year old girl was the target of the boys, Ramirez attempted to protect her 'honor' by saying something which instigated the 'boys', fight ensues along with racial epithets.
post the link, Dee, with the statement of the examiner!!
I am going to take leave of this Crime for just one comment.
Here is a BIG Issue with the PRO community.
ALL WE ARE LOOKING FOR IS FOR THESE HOODLUMS TO BE CHARGED FOR THEIR CRIME AND ALLOW JUSTICE TO TAKE ITS COURSE.
To date, any crime involving a minority OR an illegal immigrant is QUICKLY charged. There is NO big issue about the Charge.
LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFICULTY WE ARE SEEING JUST TO GET THE CRIMINALS CHARGED!!!!
WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT.
WE ALL AGREE, THE YOUNG BROWN MAN WAS MURDERED!!! AND HE IS DEAD!!!
CHARGE THEM!!
THEN, allow Justice to Run its course.
That is ALL we are asking!!
Then don't jump to conclusions like you were stating on the SF comments about the Husband and sons who were murdered in cold blood. These boys will get prosecuted and judged for the crimes they committed, you don't need to exacerbate the situation with trigger words and jumping to conclusions. Nobody outside the court room has all the evidence, and all we can go by are the articles with vague information posted by the media.
Dee says:
"LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFICULTY WE ARE SEEING JUST TO GET THE CRIMINALS CHARGED!!!!"
Welcome to the criminal justice system where you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. So please show us where there has been any difficulty in posing accusations and charging these boys? We all believe that Ramirez is dead, you claim it as murder, for which not everybody agrees with your assumption, many believe it was an accident and warrants nothing more than mere involuntary manslaughter. As for the racial "ethnic intimidation", many don't agree with that either, yet we all agree racial epithets were used after Ramirez instigated the fight with his (unknown) Spanish verbal confrontation to the boys.
Liquid,
Did you READ the last witness´s testimony?
"she saw three people kicking a man on the ground. The kicking went on for about two minutes."
SAD!!
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=102753
That all correlates with the known facts, that Ramirez was fighting, knocked to the ground, kicked by the boys, at which point the boys walked away saying racial epithets, Ramirez called his friends that just dropped him off, Ramirez says again something derogatory to the boys, gets knocked out and then kicked by Piekarsky, boys walk away again.
At 5:05 PM, Liquid said
OK lmj, prove the kick killed him and not that complications arose from the surgery. Until then it is mere opinion. The kick may have caused head injuries, but it has not been proven at all that he kick was what killed him as he did not die at the scene.
By Liquid’s logic, we cannot blame John Wilkes Booth of killing President Abraham Lincoln. He would ask for proof that the bullet killed him, and to rule out that his death was not caused by complications that arose from the surgery. Until then it is mere opinion. If we carry his logic to the Lincoln assassination, his argument would be that the bullet may have caused head injuries, but it has not been proven at all that the bullet was what killed him as he did not die at the scene. He died nine hours later across the street from the theater at the Petersen House.
That kind of logic is hard to agree with. I tend to agree more with Arizonian, when he says that it wasn't the bullet that killed him, just the massive bleeding. And what caused the massive bleeding? All the witnesses agree that it was a bullet from John Wilkes Booth's gun that caused the massive bleeding. And in our case, all we need to know is who provided the kick in the head?
It was Piekarski.
Go Liquid! You are awesome! If you want to know what happened, do what dee did, and read it at http://papundits.com
Dee didn't like what she saw there, because the people of Shenandoah are talking, and the truth is, it had nothing to do with Ramirez's "brownness" at all. Have fun!
Anon4,
The MEDICAL EXAMINER has stated the "kick in the head" was the Cause of Death!
End of Story!!
Papundits,
I see you DO NOT ALLOW comments to stand as is on your blog.
That is too bad.
I allow commenters to comment unmoderated here.
Do you have the COURAGE to do the same? So far, NO.
I stand by the TESTIMONY in court today! ALL ON The Blog!!
You miss the whole point A4, Ramirez got beaten, kicked all while he was on the ground, this could have caused internal hemorrhaging, blood clots could have formed, many variables could have taken place as Ramirez did not die until after head surgery. There's no doubt that the kicks to the body and the last punch and/or kick may have caused trauma, there's no doubt that he died, but to contribute it specifically to the kick in the head is ignorance on your behalf. What of when Ramirez was 'sucker' punched, subsequently knocked out and hit the ground where in his head bounced off the ground, this too could have caused the head injury.
So, please drop the biased ignorance and look at the actual fact of the case, until then get a better argument then the one you used, pathetic on your behalf.
Show the examiners statement Dee of the kick in the head being the cause of death. give the link to it, highlight it, show it, do something to prove it, otherwise you may have condemned the wrong person for the actual cause of death.
Liquid,
AS I SAID, I will allow the testimony to stand on its own merits!!
LET JUSTICE PREVAIL!!
As the fellow football player said, "Sucker Punch" and "Kick to the Head" murdered this young Hispanic man.
And as the other witness said, "For two minutes the young Hispanic Man was kicked" until he died!!
We NEED to allow Justice to Prevail!!
When it does, these young men will spend the rest of their lives in PRISON for their heinous crimes!!!
A Lesson LEARNED BY ALL!!
Dee says:
"And as the other witness said, "For two minutes the young Hispanic Man was kicked" until he died!!"
Now you are stating that he died at the scene from 2 minutes of being kicked? What will you come up with next?
Dee says:
"When it does, these young men will spend the rest of their lives in PRISON for their heinous crimes!!!"
I bet they don't spend more than 10 - 15 years max in jail, probably less than that. The question is, will you and yours be satisfied with only being charged with aggravated assault and possible manslaughter? and not the "Murder" charge or "Ethnic Intimidation" charges?
After all, justice prevails, right?
LOL. dee. I don't own or run the PA Pundits site. I am just a writer and editor. The owner of PA Pundits insists on moderating posts. All I did was submit my comments within yours, in blockquotes. Nothing you posted was changed.
As I said at PA Pundits, the medical examiner said Ramirez died from "blunt force trauma to the head" and NOT "a kick to the head" as you are adamantly insisting upon.
Liquid,
I merely report the heinous nature of this MURDER from News Reports.
You are right! This Hate Crime MURDER is Heinous and Unbelievable!!
Liquid,
Would that make you happy?
These young, influenced jocks, NOT serving time in prison for their Heinous Crimes?
Will that teach a lesson to your Young Supporters that Murdering a Brown Person is OK in America?
Anon,
I do feel sorry for you and yours. This is a heinous HATE Crime. If the criminals are let off scott free, that sends a message to all young people that people like you condone murder against ALL Brown People. Is THAT the message YOU and yours want to send to our young people in America? It certainly sounds like it!!
Even young Ben Lawson is standing up and telling the truth even though he is sure to be chastised by his peers for telling the truth. I commend him!
God Bless America!!
Anonymous said...
LOL. dee. I don't own or run the PA Pundits site.
Actually, Dee, you report heinous opinion from articles you read and interject your trigger words to adjudicate your wanted outcome. Had you been unbiased in your reporting you would have reported, from all the articles, the chronological time frames and actual happenings in the correct order with the actual statements. You wouldn't be unjustly condemning anybody without knowing all the facts. You make this about race by jumping to conclusions and interjecting your biased opinion.
Please show everybody where I said I do not want these boys judged for their crimes!! I said, I think they will be charged for Inv. Manslaughter and not Ethnic Intimidation. They will go to jail for some time, not for their life like what you want, but for the time warranted for their crimes. Your inept comprehension is becoming rather obtuse.
Answer my questions posed, Dee.
Will you and yours be satisfied with the boys only being charged with aggravated assault and possible manslaughter? and not the "Murder" charge or "Ethnic Intimidation" charges?
Liquid,
Please re read my previous posts. I have reported the timeline from the police reports, warrant.
In fact, I repeated it in this blog.
http://immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com/2008/07/final-kick-in-head-teens-charged-in.html
Your trigger words are "boy" etc. to minimize their crimes.
They have been charged with Murder (even now, in the 3rd degree) and Ethnic Intimidation. Even the judge said they should go to trial based on todays testimony.
You continue to say you want the more serious charges Dismissed!! I doubt you would say this if the situation were reversed and an "illeegallll" kicked a young jock in the head which resulted in his DEATh!!
I have not said I 'want' the more serious charges dropped, check your comprehension again, then show my actual statements. Your argument and obtuseness is becoming old quick. As for your time line, a few posts ago you stated: "And as the other witness said, "For two minutes the young Hispanic Man was kicked" until he died!!"
That is an incorrect and fallacious statement that shows your ignorance to your own opinionated biased unthoughtful process.
Your stubbornness of repeating he died from the kick to the head is ignorance on your behalf. You still have yet to provide the actual statement from the examiner stating that fallacious statement of your.
Now if that is what you truly believe, than only Piekasrsky should be charged with 3rd degree homicide and Walsh should only be charged with Aggravated Assault. Yet you want all of them charged with murder. The audacity of your ignorance in this matter is hysterical.
Liquid,
take a deep breath and remember I like you a lot and am very glad you are a frequent commenter here.
The 2 minute comment was based on court reports today. It is new news by a 2nd witness. Like I said.
I think, for the sake of all, we need to allow Justice to run its course. Let the courts decide. I am satisfied that the justice system is proceeding (slow) but proceeding.
We all need to learn a lesson from this. We all need to learn to get along!
Liquid did not say he wanted the more serious charges dismissed. At least not till all the facts are in. He asked the question "what if" the lesser charges prevailed, "how would you and the rest of your ilk take it"?
Here is the actual article sentence of the 2 minutes in question:
"The kicking continued for at least two minutes while she spoke on the telephone with emergency dispatchers, she said."
Here is Dee's statement:
"And as the other witness said, "For two minutes the young Hispanic Man was kicked" until he died!!"
Do you now understand where you interject your biased opinion and actually turn the factual statements into something that they are not to try to further your agenda of heinous racial hate.
Maybe it varies from state to state, but it is my understanding that if someone dies, even months or years later, as a result, even indirect, of injuries sustained during a crime, they can be charged with murder.
I have not followed this case at all so don't feel confident about who did what or when in this particular case; just my opinion in general.
Luis was illegal, he was in the park with his so call fiancee step-sister, who is gonna have his baby, plus his fiancee was arrested for trying to run her step-sister over with a car, two weeks ago. Luis been arested for many things. Maybe people should go to the Pottsville Republican & Herald newspaper on line and read the comments, he was no angel or his fiancee.
So that gives EVERYONE the right to KILL ILLEEEEGALS who were no Angels? So I suppose EVERYONE in your family are just saints and don't deserve death by your logic. But GOD FORBID someone in your family is an ILLEEEEGAL or did something that you label "no Angel." Well can I go kick the hell out of 'em to death, then we can say "Hey, they were no Angels." (Then liquid can be my attorney and I'll get off with just manslaughter)
http://members.aol.com/StatutesPa/18.Cp.25.html
Here are the actual definitions:
§ 2502. Murder.
(a) Murder of the first degree.-A criminal homicide constitutes murder of the first degree when it is committed by an intentional killing.
(b) Murder of the second degree.-A criminal homicide constitutes murder of the second degree when it is committed while defendant was engaged as a principal or an accomplice int he perpetration of a felony.
(c) Murder of the third degree.-All other kinds of murder shall be murder of the third degree. Murder of the third degree is a felony of the first degree.
A & B have been dropped, the Prosecution is going for C.
§ 2503. Voluntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.-A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits voluntary manslaughter if at the time of the killing he is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by:
1. the individual killed; or
2. another whom the actor endeavors to kill, but to negligently or accidently causes the death of the individual killed.
This is always a possibility.
§ 2504. Involuntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.-A person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when as a direct result of the doing of an unlawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, or the doing of a lawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, he causes the death of another person.
This is what I think Piekarsky and Walsh will end up being charged with, since the act of the knockout/knockdown final blow rendered Ramirez to hit his head and bounce off of the ground could have caused blunt force trauma and/or the kick by Piekarsky could have also done it. The problem is which was the actual cause of death? or was it both?
Do you now understand what it has been that I have been saying to you all along Dee or lmj? If it was just the kick that did it than Walsh should only be charged with assault and Piekarsky charged with 3rd degree homicide. If it was the knockdown and head on ground that did it then Walsh should be charged and Piekarsky should be charged with 3rd degree homicide.
By your stubbornness of only the kick causing the death than you have condemned only the one for incomplete evidence based on your assertions.
lmj, sorry I am only an Expert Witness in court trials, not a lawyer, although I did play one on TV....
Criminal Homicide
That should fix the link
Liquid,
My quote was accurate. Witness Testimony said: "she saw three people kicking a man on the ground. THE KICKING WENT ON FOR ABOUT TWO MINUTES, she said."
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=102753
I posted the quote on the main blog as the last update.
You changed it to fit your agenda when you said:
"The kicking continued for at least two minutes while she spoke on the telephone with emergency dispatchers, she said."
LMJ, good response to Theresa. I was going to respond with a similar response but you handled it well!!
As they say, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Anyone who there is ANY rationalization for murder in any degree is very, very wrong!
I quoted you, where you added the until he died!! I changed nothing and gave the actual sentence from the article, while you changed it.
Here is your exact statements:
Dee said...
Liquid,
AS I SAID, I will allow the testimony to stand on its own merits!!
LET JUSTICE PREVAIL!!
As the fellow football player said, "Sucker Punch" and "Kick to the Head" murdered this young Hispanic man.
And as the other witness said, "For two minutes the young Hispanic Man was kicked" until he died!!
We NEED to allow Justice to Prevail!!
When it does, these young men will spend the rest of their lives in PRISON for their heinous crimes!!!
A Lesson LEARNED BY ALL!!
August 18, 2008 7:19 PM
Now go back and apologize for your statement. I just brought it out in the open. Still your ignorance beffuttles the mind.
Liquid, Good info on the definition of charges. I want to study them a bit. I also want to look at the civil suits possible for the children of the deceased.
Here you go Liquid. I found the Medical Examiners article. I had it posted, but updated it with the warrant info.
Shenandoah beating death ruled a ‘homicide’
BY LESLIE RICHARDSON
STAFF WRITER
lrichardson@republicanherald.com
Published: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
SHENANDOAH — Luis Ramirez’s death was ruled a homicide Tuesday by Montour County Coroner Scott Lynn, who released the results of an autopsy conducted earlier that afternoon.
Ramirez, 25, of Shenandoah, died of blunt force head trauma, Lynn said.
Homicide (Latin homicidium, homo human being + caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of killing another human being.
Liquid,
What is troubling for me is your sides push to minimize the charges against these homicide committers.
Lets reverse this scenario. If Ramirez were White and the Jocks were Latino Illegal Immigrants, they would have been hauled to jail immediately. Your side would be blaming EVERY illegal immigrant in America. Your side would have the wife and kids on Fox and Shock Jock radio chastising ALL Illegal Immigrants. You would demand the DEATH SENTENCE for ALL involved. You would never call the young men "boys" or try to minimize any charges.
Now look what happened in this case. It took weeks to get the killers charged. It is tough even to get the 3rd degree charges and the obvious ethnic intimidation ordered to trial. Who knows if the killers will be allowed bail.
The PROs are NOT claiming ALL White HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL players in America are GUILTY of a Crime. There is only MINIMAL Coverage of this in the media. You have ANTI bloggers chastising the dead victim. No shock jocks. No alarm.
A YOUNG MAN was MURDERED. All the PRO community wants is JUSTICE for those that Committed the Obvious CRIMES!!
Thats what me and Anon have said, blunt force trauma, not the kick to the head as you have stated. Blunt force trauma could have happened from the blow from Walsh when Ramirez hit the ground and his head bounced on the concrete or it could have been from the kick(s) to the head. even your topic statement says "Kick in the Head Hate Crime Hearing"
Your statements:
Dee said...
Liquid, The Medical Examiner said the kick in the head was the FATAL BLOW. Go back and google.
Imagine you being "goaded" by a dozen muscle bound jocks. You say Leave Us Alone! But they cant understand you. You and one of them get into a fight. Then one of the other muscle bound jocks sucker punches you in the face. Knocks you out. While another kicks you in the head while you are passed out. The medical examiner says that was the fatal blow that KILLED YOU!! Imagine!! Now KNOW this is what happened to Ramirez!! Murder is Murder!!
August 18, 2008 2:47 PM
You only have proven what I have been saying, not what you have stated.
You are choosing sides in this, my side, your side?? I thought this was about the facts of a case and what the outcome wold be. There is no sides, only justice, and we all want justice, do we not? You have turned this into a racial enigma and have a chosen side, all by yourself. You lost all ability to see, think clearly in this case because you allowed racial bias to rule over your views.
Dee says:
"A YOUNG MAN was MURDERED. All the PRO community wants is JUSTICE for those that Committed the Obvious CRIMES!!"
Thats just it, there are no 'OBVIOUS' crimes, there is a crime, or many crimes that must be sorted out. You confuse Citizens Rights with "Illegal Immigrant" thinking they have the same rights, they don't. Do no confuse the two, two totally different aspects.
Liquid,
Illegal Immigration has NOTHING to do with this murder!
Do you think the young murderers asked for a passport?
Nope.
They saw a Brown Guy and started their harassment.
The murderers should stand trial and let the courts decide. That is the Law. That is the Justice System!! (AGAIN .. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with Illegal Immigration for this HATE Murder!)
Oh, Dee, pathetic on your behalf. Don't try to turn this around and play this on me. I never said anything about it being about Illegal Immigration. I made the assertion that thats what you are doing with your incorrect assessment of the facts of this case. You wanting MURDER and LIFE in PRISON because, as you state, "THE YOUNG BROWN MAN WAS MURDERED!!! (August 18, 2008 5:59 PM)" vs actually having justice for these 'young men'. You yourself interjected race and status into the discussion.
You are so all over the place with any of this case you make no sense what so ever. You interjected his immigration status by stating this:
To date, any crime involving a minority OR an illegal immigrant is QUICKLY charged. There is NO big issue about the Charge.
August 18, 2008 5:59 PM
I think you better lay off the liquid until you come to your senses.
Go, liquid, go! lol. I am sitting on the sidelines on this one enjoying the show. Pass the popcorn, please.
I NEVER said this was about Illegal Immigration. I have always said "WWB" walking while brown!
READ YOUR OWN QUOTE!!
YOU Bring it in!!
Liquidmicro said...
Thats just it, there are no 'OBVIOUS' crimes, there is a crime, or many crimes that must be sorted out. You confuse Citizens Rights with "Illegal Immigrant" thinking they have the same rights, they don't. Do no confuse the two, two totally different aspects.
Liquid,
Truth hurts doesnt it Liquid. You hate losing an argument.
You do not have a leg to stand on. Justice is winning in this argument. You, my friend, DO NOT have a leg to stand on. Your pride will NOT allow you to acknowledge the truth!!
All I ask is that Justice Prevails and the MURDERERS be Punished!!
God Bless America!!
My god, Dee, you have lost your mind. I show you your actual statements and you still accuse me of bringing it in? Pathetic. It's not about me winning or losing, it's about your ignorance of the actual facts, your assertions into what is actually stated to further your heinous racially motivated cause, you're making it about race and status.
You have yet to prove anything you have stated, such as the "kick n the head" from the examiner, or the facts you stated as "he was kicked for 2 minutes until he died!!".
We all want justice based on the facts of the case, you want justice based on what you believe is 'murder' and a 'hate crime', while I believe as the actual facts come out, they will only be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter and Aggravated Assault. Now answer the questions that i posed that you keep avoiding:
Will you and yours be satisfied with the boys only being charged with aggravated assault and possible manslaughter? and not the "Murder" charge or "Ethnic Intimidation" charges?
Liquid, Liquid, Liquid,
Out of everyone here, I probabl y like you (and Ulty) the best! I even put your (out of control, pathetic, ignorance and QUIT calling the murderers “boys” ) name calling on the side lights. (e.g. (and your “xxx dee have you lost your mind” comments).
Despite your awful attacks, I am determined to keep this discussion on the up on up. I only ask that the murderers be tried! For Heavens Sake! What is so difficult to understand? Ramirez was murdered. He is dead!!!
In court yesterday, Ben Lawson said his fellow football players committed these crimes. What is so hard to understand?
Let Justice run its course! God Bless America!!
My awful attacks??? I am only bringing to light your exact statements for which you are now trying to back peddle from.
As I have stated, we all want justice, we all agree these boys are guilty of a crime or crimes. You believe they intentionally 'MURDERED' Ramirez due to his race, your statements lead anyone who reads what you have said to believe that, look to lmj, he hangs on your every word even when your statements are off base and out of line. You have interjected your biased view in everything you have written.
All I have done is bring that out into the open, I have exposed you on that, yet you still continue to argue that what you have written is what was said by the MSM, yet you can't show any statement or article saying what you have stated. Still no answer to my questions posed..... how telling.
Dee says:
In court yesterday, Ben Lawson said his fellow football players committed these crimes. What is so hard to understand?
What are the crimes? A punch and a kick in the head by 2 different persons? Which one was the divisive blow causing death? According to your headline and your arguments it was the kick in the head, so then why charge Walsh with 3rd degree homicide?
Come on Dee, I have given you so many opportunities to explain and get out of your inherent poorly placed position, yet you continue to keep arguing from our position. Will you ever change?? Will yo actually see the error of your way??
Actually Liquid, I have exposed YOU!
I have said from the very beginning, Let Justice Be Served!! Go back and Check!!
I ask for Justice for these crimes!
Allow the Justice System to run its course.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND??
A Man Died at the Hands of these Youths!
They hurled Racial Slurs. Even the witness retired police officer has said so. Even the fellow football player has said so!
They are charged with MURDER in the 3rd Degree and Ethnic Intimidation.
I have said they should FACE the Justice System with the crimes they are charged with.
You, instead, attempt to lessen these charges and minimize their crimes.
I and all American Latinos only ask for Justice!
We are NOT claiming all high school jocks are guilty for these crimes (as your side attempts to when any illegal immigrant is charged for a crime and you attempt to indict ALL illegal immigrants.) We only ask that those who committed these crimes spend their day in court and allow the Justice System to prosecute them for their crimes.
What is so difficult to understand Liquid.
All you have done is expose your (and your sides) true agenda. That is clear!!
I and all PROs say, Let Justice Be Served!!
God Bless America!!
Liquid,
As the judge said, MURDER in the 3rd Degree AND Ethnic Intimidation. LET JUSTICE RUN ITS COURSE!!
God Bless America!!
Liquidmicro said...
What are the crimes?
Yes Dee, that's what they are 'charged' with, however that does not mean that that's what they are going to be found guilty of. They 'may' be found guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter and Aggravated Assault. Will you be satisfied with that outcome if that is what they end up being found guilty of?????
Dee said...
Actually Liquid, I have exposed YOU!
I have said from the very beginning, Let Justice Be Served!! Go back and Check!!
I ask for Justice for these crimes!
Allow the Justice System to run its course.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND??
Dee, we have all said that, and that's not what the argument is about, no try though. If you keep trying, you might get there, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting, I know how stubborn you are.
Ok, I cannot remain silent any longer. How many times dee have you convicted an anti or an employer without a trial? That is all we had asked for at the time is to let justice run its course but you would insist that I, liquid and Utima and others convict them before all the facts were in or you lambasted us!
Why do you keep saying that liquid is asking for lesser charges? He hasn't done that! He just said "what if" that is the way it goes? He isn't minimizing what happened either.
That is a flat out lie that when an illegal has committed a crime that we anti's indict all illegals of that same crime.
I am with liquid you have lost your mind somewhere along the way and it is directly due to your own ethnocentricism. It is like a cancer eating at your brain. Everything is about race with you.
Liquid, How many times do I need to repeat my same words. I want Justice to run its course. I am NOT like YOUR side that wants to INDICT an ENTIRE group for the crimes of the FEW!
The Jocks are Charged with Murder and Ethnic Solitication. ALLOW JUSTICE TO RUN ITS COURSE!!
I also suggest to Ms. Dillman to find a lawyer and SUE the families (as Nicole Simpsons family did.) SUE the FAMILIES so the Children will be provided for in the future.
Dee says:
"The Jocks are Charged with Murder and Ethnic Solitication. ALLOW JUSTICE TO RUN ITS COURSE!!"
I have no problem with justice running its course, I have no problem with the boys being found guilty of 3rd degree homicide or ethnic intimidation, I agree to whatever the jury decides.
My personal opinion, from the facts from the MSM and the few court documents, is that they will be charged with involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault.
My question to you is, will you be satisfied with the jury if they come out and charge the boys with involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault?
'charged' above should be changed to 'found guilty of'.
Dee says:
"The Jocks are Charged with Murder and Ethnic Solitication. ALLOW JUSTICE TO RUN ITS COURSE!!"
I have no problem with justice running its course, I have no problem with the boys being found guilty of 3rd degree homicide or ethnic intimidation, I agree to whatever the jury decides.
My personal opinion, from the facts from the MSM and the few court documents, is that they will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault.
My question to you is, will you be satisfied with the jury if they come out and find the boys guilty of involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault?
August 19, 2008 7:48 PM
Here is what I intended to write above. fixed so ignore the previous 2 posts.
So you turn right around dee after I said that anti's don't indict a whole group for the sins of one or a few and repeat the same old lie all over again? Unfreaking, unbelievable! Please tell me you have alzheimers between posts because I can't believe that you would repeat what I just denied!
You also make the statement of "let justice run its course" on this case and that is all we asked for about the MM and Agri-processors cases but you wouldn't have it! You wanted them put in the slammer and convicted righr then before justice ran its course and you beat up on us because we didn't agree with you!! Can anyone possibly be that much of a hypocrite?
Here is what the 'boys' have been charged with:
3rd Degree Homicide
There are many forms of Homicide, Murder being one of them, Involuntary Manslaughter being another. Homicide is a broad brush of stating that someone died by the hands of another.
The definition of Homicide by NOLO:
homicide
The killing of one human being by the act or omission of another. The term applies to all such killings, whether criminal or not. Homicide is considered noncriminal in a number of situations, including deaths as the result of war and putting someone to death by the valid sentence of a court. Killing may also be legally justified or excused, as it is in cases of self-defense or when someone is killed by another person who is attempting to prevent a violent felony. Criminal homicide occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are both examples of criminal homicide.
So lets look at what Murder is according to PA Law:
(a) Murder of the first degree.-A criminal homicide constitutes murder of the first degree when it is committed by an intentional killing.
(b) Murder of the second degree.-A criminal homicide constitutes murder of the second degree when it is committed while defendant was engaged as a principal or an accomplice int he perpetration of a felony.
(c) Murder of the third degree.-All other kinds of murder shall be murder of the third degree. Murder of the third degree is a felony of the first degree.
Now lets look at what Manslaughter is:
§ 2503. Voluntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.-A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits voluntary manslaughter if at the time of the killing he is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by:
1. the individual killed; or
2. another whom the actor endeavors to kill, but to negligently or accidentally causes the death of the individual killed.
§ 2504. Involuntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.-A person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when as a direct result of the doing of an unlawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, or the doing of a lawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, he causes the death of another person.
Now for you to keep calling it 'MURDER' is disingenuous on your behalf and shows your biasness and your desired outcome. Homicide is the correct legal, and used by the courts, term that you should be using as murder and manslaughter both fall under the category. The difference being to which the amount of time to be served and the intentions of the person(s) charged.
So to ask yet again: Will you be satisfied with the jury if they come out and find the boys guilty of involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault?
Liquid,
I dont know what satisfaction has to do with anything.
I ask that the courts follow through. I ask the FBI to monitor to make sure they do their job. I know I will be following the case.
Remember, the local police were going to do nothing.
It was not until attention was brought to the case and the PRO community requested the FBI investigate that police finally took action.
Let Justice run its course. Enough eyes are watching that I believe Justice will be served.
I also think the children of the deceased should be cared for and I advocate that Ms. Dillman talk to lawyers and begin a civil case against the perpetrators´ parents (Similar to the Nicole Simpson family´s civil case.) That way the children of the victim will be cared for. I believe the testimony of the brave, honest football player, Ben Lawson, should be sufficient evidence to win the Civil Case for the children of the deceased.
Its a simple question Dee, what is so hard about answering it? Why make it out to be more than what it is?
Will you be satisfied with the jury if they come out and find the boys guilty of involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault?
Your the one claiming it was "MURDER" and "ETHNIC INTIMIDATION". Your the one claiming it was about "RACE". Your the one wanting them to spend Life in Prison. Have your views now changed?
it's a simple question, whats so hard about answering it?
"All I have done is bring that out into the open, I have exposed you on that, yet you still continue to argue that what you have written is what was said by the MSM, yet you can't show any statement or article saying what you have stated. Still no answer to my questions posed..... how telling."
The only thing you've exposed is how biased you, but don't be offended by that, all ppl have a right to their own opinion even if it is hypocritical.
Thing I don't like is when it's white jocks that killed a Hispanic, ppl say, "oh they're just boys, they didn't mean to kill him. It's that mexkin's fault, he and his family were no angel's." Yet if the jocks were Hispanic, legal or ILLEEEEEGAL.... anti's would say: "BATTIN' DOWN THE HATCHES, SOUND THE ALARM, THE INVADER'S HAVE KILLED ONE OF OUR OWN!!! LET'S LYNCH 'EM!!! SEND 'EM TO DEATH ROW!!!" while frothing at the mouth the whole time. All the right wing shock jocks with 24/7 coverage. Funny thing is, is that this is what REALLY happens today. There's no denying it.
PPL take sides, facts be damned. They can be twisted to anybody's version. Yet the most important fact is, this man is dead and his family now must live without him. Children without their father. Wife without her husband. Mother without her son. Do they deserve any less justice than any other family that's had to live with murder no matter the race or creed? That's the question that should be asked
lmj, liqidmicro made no such remarks about this incident. You are doing exactly what dee was erroneoulsy implying and that is that we anti's indict a whole group for the sins of one or two. You are blaming "some" anti's remarks on the whole group of anti's and passing them on to liquid also! You and dee are the hypocrites!
In answer to your question posed to liquid and this is my opinion also, just because they are white kids who were involved we are not advocating that they shouldn't get the justice and punishment that they deserve according to what charges are made and proven. So you can take your race card and stick it where the sun don't shine!
I take it, lmj, you haven't read nor understood anything at all about this case or about what I have stated. You wear ignorance well. Dee's own ignorance by stating only one thing, such as the "kick" is what killed Ramirez is purely speculative on her behalf, when it could have very well been when Ramirez hit his head on the macadam from when Walsh knocked him out. The 2 of you haven't fully read or understood what the facts are, you both are under the assumption that this was a fight about race, just because an "ILLLEEEEGGAAALLLL MESKIN" was involved. The boys are at fault for the homicide, I have not at any time said differently. You and Dee think they MURDERED him because he was an "MESKIN". When in fact all it was was a fight that went to far adn Ramirez died from the AZZ WHOOPIN!!!! So please, show everybody where it is that I am showing bias for these boys, or do I need to point yours and Dee's ignorance out some more since you think you are her knight in shining armor coming to her rescue????
Liquid, What I find interesting is, the case is moving forward with the charge murder (3rd degree) and ethnic intimidation. I know you would LIKE it to be a lower charge, but it is not. I am calling it what it is, as charged.
So the question is, why cant you call it what it is and what will you do when the charges hold up and they are found Guilty As Charged?
It's moving forward as a charge of 3rd degree HOMICIDE and ETHNIC INTIMIDATION. Murder and Manslaughter both fall under HOMICIDE. The difference being they are 2 different meanings of the word. One, MURDER, is intentional, while MANSLAUGHTER, is another person having died due to the actions of another. Both carry sentences of jail time, the length of time is the difference.
I see you still can't answer the question I asked and that you still call it MURDER, your wanted outcome vs calling it HOMICIDE which is the legal court used term. Still very telling on your part.
Liquid, Your BIAS is in every word you state to minimize the charges.
The charges are
MURDER in the 3rd Degree
and
ETHNIC Intimidation.
The Judge is Moving Forward with these charges and the Judge Orders the murderers to Trial!
These are the facts.
Your minimized charges are NOT in the courts record.
I rest my case.
Point! Set! Match!!
Oh Dee, your ignorance is still there, I am not changing or lowering anything, I am using the exact court language, HOMICIDE. You are the one inserting ignorance and bias by calling it MURDER.
Now, answer the question I have posed to you and your knight.
Let's make it as simple as we can, so even you can understand it, Dee.
The boys are being charged with 3rd Degree Homicide (from the court documents, court language and get this, court records!!), the judge has ordered the trial to continue. One or both will be found guilty of HOMICIDE in the end.
Lets look at your link provided from the topic shall we:
from Readingeagle, especially that second paragraph and the word "coould".
Two teens and an adult were held for court Monday after a hearing here in Schuylkill County Court in the fatal beating of a Mexican national in Shenandoah.
Brandon Piekarsky, 16, and Colin Walsh, 17, are charged with criminal homicide — which could include third-degree murder, voluntary or involuntary manslaughter — along with ethnic intimidation and related offenses in the July 12 beating of Luis Ramirez, 25.
Prosecutors agreed not to pursue first-degree or second-degree murder charges against the two, saying there wasn’t sufficient evidence to support either charge.
And YES it is abut Semantics, one word can change the outcome of an entire meaning and structure of a sentence and/or story.
Liquid,
From the Article
"A judge in Pottsville said Monday that prosecutors have enough evidence to try 17-year-old Colin Walsh and 16-year-old Brandon Piekarsky on counts of third-degree MURDER and ETHNIC INTIMIDATION."
AP ARTICLE LINK
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5huiVTwLLrGgRl9AkZSSKKv3sE1fAD92KT5EG0
I think we should ALL comment the Bravery of one young man that told the truth! In spite of all the threats and intimidation he received from his peers when they cooked up the cover up plan, he was brave on the stand. He swore on the Bible he would tell the truth and he did. I highly commend the football player who was the eye witness to these deplorable event, Ben Lawson.
Liquit, dont you agree Ben Lawson should be commended for coming forward and telling the truth on the stand?
The Blunt Force Head Trauma that killed Ramirez was due to the Sucker Punch by Walsh to Ramirez Head and the Final Kick In the Head by Piekarsky. THAT IS WHY BOTH have been charged with 3rd degree murder! (As the AP reported).
What is also very telling is, the court hearing lasted most of the day. The judge heard from all the witnesses and he, the Judge, ordered the Murder Trial for these murderers. (as the AP reported)
I would also be interested in hearing what the young 15 year old girl who was initially harassed, intimidated and sworn at by these hoodlum jocks. I am sure her testimony reveals how heinous the attacks actually were!! I wonder if the Prosecutor is waiting for the trial to provide the inside, most compelling view of the events that dark night!
While I do believe Justice will be served, especially since the FBI and ACLU have been called in, I also think the children of the deceased should be cared for and I advocate that Ms. Dillman talk to lawyers and begin a civil case against the perpetrators´ parents (Similar to the Nicole Simpson family´s civil case.) That way the children of the victim will be cared for. I believe the testimony of the brave, honest football player, Ben Lawson, should be sufficient evidence to win the Civil Case for the children of the deceased. The testimony of the 15 year old verbally attacked girl will help too.
They have, for the last time, been charged with CRIMINAL HOMICIDE!!!! The judge ruled out first and second degree murder allowing third degree murder, manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter as outcomes. Legal court terminology, legal court record!!!
Answer my question:
Will you be satisfied with the jury if they come out and find the boys guilty of involuntary manslaughter and aggravated assault?
As for Lawson, he is to be commended for his testimony, and I think the others will follow suit. Your problem is you are reading to much into what has been said, jumping to conclusions and condemning them unjustly.
Dillman herself has no case, although her children might. But for a case of wrongful death, Ramirez' immediate family would have to file the charges.
And since the boys are being charged as adults, they would have to sue the boys, their parents have bee removed from any future proceedings due to the charges as adults.
Liquid,
The murderers will have their day in court. You are still in your own world when you think my satisfaction has anything to do with this case.
But in response to what you are alluding to, If, for any reason, justice is NOT served and the charges are dismissed, (which I do not believe they will be), I believe I would suggest to Ms. Dillman to pursue a Federal case. (The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, enacted in 28 U.S.C. § 994 note Sec. 280003)
I do believe the victim´s children do have the basis for a civil case (similar to the Nicole Simpson Civil case) and I recommend Ms. Dillman pursue it regardless of the criminal case. With the brave young man Lawson´s court testimony, there should be more than enough evidence so the children can be cared for when they grow up. Ms. Dillman as their caretaker (mother) may be able to hire a lawyer to represent the victim´s children.
I have not alluding to anything, your satisfaction has nothing to do with anything, all I did was question you, since you are alluding to murder, would you be alright if the jurors came back with a lesser degree than murder, Involuntary manslaughter? Its a simple question since both fall under the charge of criminal homicide. Again, you are the one making the statement of MURDER and that they're guilty of it.
As for OJ's case, Nicole's immediate family (mom and step-dad) filed the wrongful death case, and it had to meet certain criteria in order to continue to court. Each state is different in regards to its wrongful death statutes, PA is not CA. She should check into it, but don't be surprised if she is denied.
Well Liquid, I am glad you finally got off of your "satisfaction" kick.
All I care about is Justice being served!
That way lessons can be learned and the community will heal. Everyone should understand that Violence is NEVER the answer.
Racial Profiling and Racial Attacks are NEVER tolerated in America.
We should all learn to get along and live together in Peace!
I know you will come back and say he shouldnt have been here in the first place. However, given our nations history and given we are where we are, the facts are we do have 12M illegal immigrants in this country today and YES we do need Immigration Reform.
Plus these young people had no idea whether the victim was "illegal" or not. All they saw was Brown. We have to stop the hate and violence of Brown people. They should learn it is never ok to hurl racial slurs and kick a downed young man in the head as they did. Violence is NEVER OK.
Neither is underaged drinking.
Neither is conspiracy to cover up crimes.
I wish you would get off your "brown" victim train. There are just as many whites, blacks and other etnicities in this country that are the victims of hate crimes.
A white woman was attacked and thrown to the ground a couple of years ago by Latinos in Maywood, Ca during a peaceful protest. Another elderly white woman was hit over the head with a full bottle of water in Baldwin Park by Latinos. An elderly white man got his face all scratched up by a Latina whereby she even lost a nail doing that. It isn't just about politics either, many of those people just hate white people.
Right, violence isn't the answer just because you don't like the color of one's skin or one's politics either.
Dee says:
"I know you will come back and say he shouldnt have been here in the first place. However, given our nations history and given we are where we are, the facts are we do have 12M illegal immigrants in this country today and YES we do need Immigration Reform."
Again, I've not made any reference to his status nor his color, it has been you, just like you're doing it now, pathetic on your behalf.
Dee says:
"Plus these young people had no idea whether the victim was "illegal" or not. All they saw was Brown. We have to stop the hate and violence of Brown people. They should learn it is never ok to hurl racial slurs and kick a downed young man in the head as they did. Violence is NEVER OK.
Neither is underaged drinking.
Neither is conspiracy to cover up crimes."
You have no idea if these boys new Ramirez or not or his status, yet you continue to make your assumptions. The only thing you have correct is, Violence is NEVER OK. Neither is underaged drinking.
Neither is conspiracy to cover up crimes.
Here's a very informative article, more actual facts about the case:
1st-, 2nd-degree murder charges tossed in death of Ramirez
Here are the highlights.....
"On a dark Shenandoah street on July 12, a group of teens spent the night drinking, then got into a fight with a man in which one sucker-punched the man -- knocking him down so hard his head bounced off the macadam -- and another kicked him in the head as he lay prone.
But the fight with Luis Ramirez, 25, doesn't qualify as an intentional killing, District Judge Anthony Kilker ruled Monday."
.....
"They also repeatedly pointed out that Ramirez had several chances to leave the park -- witnesses testified Dillman's half-sister loudly told him to do so -- and that he was an aggressor in the fight."
.....
"Testimony also showed that as many as four other Hispanics came to the scene during the brawl, and that it was Donchak who called police, saying someone had a gun. While Lawson said he didn't see a gun, Fanelli said Walsh, Piekarsky and another teen did.
Fanelli also noted from Ramirez's autopsy report said he had a blood-alcohol content of 0.15 percent -- about twice the level state law says is too drunk to drive -- and the drug benzodiazapine in his system."
Now benzodiazapine is a class of psychoactive drugs with varying hypnotic, sedative, anxiolytic, anticonvulsant, muscle relaxant and amnesic properties, which are mediated by slowing down the central nervous system. Recreational stimulant users often use benzodiazepines as a means of "coming down". Benzodiazepines are also used to treat the panic that can be caused by hallucinogen intoxication.
The long-term use of benzodiazapines can cause physical dependence. The use of benzodiazepines should therefore commence only after medical consultation and benzodiazepines should be prescribed the smallest dosage possible to provide an acceptable level of symptom relief. Dependence varies with the benzodiazepine used and with the user.
I think its going to become much more fun watching this case as it unfurls and more 'facts' come out.
Pat, I need your reference urls.
I recall the Maywood blonde MM who initiated many angry attacks. I think I posted a pix a while back. Please provided a url that says otherwise.
BTW Liquid, I wonder what the alcohol level of drinking two 40´s of beer for the 16 and 17 year old murderers would be, as the brave witness Ben Lawson explained.
The facts are, Justice should be served upon those that committed this heinous crime, especially the sucker punch, the kick in the head after the victim was on the ground.
I feel saddest for the two children of the victim. They will grow up with no father thanks to the sucker puncher and the head kicker.
You know liquid, I looked up that drug benzodiazepine in wiki. You know what it is used for? Dental Work. You are really a trip lately. I guess you are having "fun" with this murder case!
"can also be used before certain medical procedures such as endoscopies or dental work where tension and anxiety are present"
Liquid,
"Fun" to watch? "Fun"?? What a very very odd statement to make Liquid.
Benzo is also used for "coming down" off drugs such as 'speed', 'crank', 'cocain', etc. I guess we will wait to see won't we.
Dee, here is a link to the Maywood story.
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001807.html
Dee, I don't know what MM woman you are talking about that supposedly initiated any attacks. The woman who was attacked (unprovoked) in Maywood her name was Kele and was also called a devil white b@tch! Sounds like a racial slur to me!
What, no comments about the other incidents that I posted about? The moral of the story is that violence is not acceptable just because you don't like someone's skin color/race or their politics and all races have been guilty of it.
How did you like those reconquista signs in the pictures, lol.
I posted my last comment over at One Old Vet, along with calling him on his charge and judgment call of MURDER, same as I have done with you, Dee, except he deleted my posts for calling him on it. So, I asked him as you did, if he was man enough to let my posts stand along with the same question I posed to you for which you never answered, so he deleted all my posts. I find it hilarious, and I call him out. So come on OOV, is Dee more of a man than you are for allowing my arguments to stand while you delete them on your site? Be a man and put them back, then prove them wrong, provided you can, and we both know that you can't!!
I just posted this at OOV:
You delete my posts because I called you on your statements? Pathetic. I gave you factual statements from court testimony, that proved your statements as judgmental on your behalf and proved you wrong. Dee is more of a man than you are, she at least attempts to justify her ignorance, you just silence anybody that points your out. Come on be a man, put my comments back and try to justify your judgment of these boys without knowing the facts of the case.
Now my posts are awaiting moderation on his site. We will see if it stands. You should be happy Dee, he is stifling debate and shutting down democracy at the same time and only allowing his and yours judgmental statements to stand.
OOV has every right to moderate his blog just like any other blog owner.
I choose to let the other side post openly and only delete if they use profane language or purposely try to hijack the blog. So far, I have only had to delete a very few.
I think you are wrong Liquid. I have illustrated such in my most recent blog. OOV and most others agree with me.
All I ask is that Justice be served. I want all of us to get along and the Racial Profiling and Racial animosity to stop once and for all.
I also believe we need Comprehensive Immigration Reform. I know OOV disagrees with my perspective on this, but I do respect that fact that he also abhors racial violence.
"OOV has every right to moderate his blog just like any other blog owner."
He does, but to delete a post just because it points out an intellectually dishonest judgmental accusation based on nothing more than opinion is mere cowardly and prejudice on his part.
"I think you are wrong Liquid. I have illustrated such in my most recent blog. OOV and most others agree with me."
Just like I think you are wrong in calling it MURDER when the charge is CRIMINAL HOMICIDE!! You are neither the judge nor the executioner, yet you and OOV have deemed these boys guilty without knowing all the facts. You have picked and chosen to paint the picture you wish to be seen. All you have to do is to call it what it is, CRIMINAL HOMICIDE, let the courts decide the guilt.
Why no outrage over the acts of racial violence on the part of the "brown" people that I posted, dee? Of course, no one was killed in those particular incidents but not even a peep out of you about them.
What would passing CIR have to do with this case? If it was indeed a hate crime, it wouldn't have changed anything. If someone hates another for the color of their skin, race or nationality they will still do so regardless of their status in this country.
I found a picture on line of these same womrn in their little pink hats with their fists thrust up, Nazi style. Not subdied amd peaceful like the one you posted, dee.
Pat,
You are right. This case has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Nothing at all.
The racial slurs were hurled at him due to his skin color. No one asked for his legal papers.
Right, dee. But you were the one who mentioned that we need CIR under this topic. CIR isn't going to change anything if someone is racist against another group. I am not saying that this was the case here, however. Let justice run its course.
Let me give you an example of what I mean. Most Black people in this country are citizens but there are still non-blacks who hate black people.
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