Wednesday, November 28, 2007

Big Business Doesn´t Want to Know!

SEC Special Report: The meat packing industry is the largest segment of the U.S. Agriculture industry producing close to 100 billon pounds of meat and poultry in 2004 with sales that exceeded 100 billion dollars. The Top 5 companies are: Tyson, Conagra, Smithfield, Swift and Hormel. This industry is highly concentrated to just a few top players.

Since 1980, the number of slaughter plants has plunged from more than 600 to 170 cattle slaughterers. Since 1980, the number of hog slaughter plants has been reduced from more than 500 to 180. The number of processing plants has also been decreasing. Most of the closed plants were small facilities. Smaller operators who do not have a special market niche cannot compete with the predatory practices of the big operators and the huge advantages that come with the economy of scale both in the purchase of live animals and every day plant production operations.

From the 1950s through 1984, meat packing was one of the highest paying industries in U.S. manufacturing. From 1984 until the present, meat packing has dropped to one of the lowest paying. Contract concessions have taken UFCW from its strongest bargaining position to its weakest. Meat packing was also one of the most highly organized industries in U.S. manufacturing; however, the percent of union workers in this industry has plunged from 80 percent in 1980 to less than 50 percent today. In right-to-work states such as South Dakota , Texas , Kansas , Nebraska and Iowa where there are large numbers of packinghouse workers, union membership on a plant by plant basis ranges from only 10 to 30 percent in many plants.

Today, the wages/benefits are at an all time low and workers are mistreated, forced to work under the most hazardous/unsafe conditions in the nation. In 2004, Human Rights Watch issued a report concluding the nation's meat packing industry violates basic human and worker rights.
TN Magazine Concurs: Since the 1980s, a few corporations have controlled meatpacking, and they have maintained their narrow profit margins by hiring non-union, immigrant labor and pushing fewer workers to work faster. It's gruesome, hazardous work, with 36% of meatpacking employees injured on the job every year. That figure does not include meatpacking's most imperiled workers: the contract employees who rush to clean blood-slick surfaces and equipment, often ignoring safety protocol, and at high risk for crushing, amputation and chemical exposure. Plants that once cleaned in-house have cut costs by outsourcing to contractors like QSI, whose crews must scour massive slaughterhouses to USDA specifications in a few hours. According to meatpacking industry expert Julie Eisenberg, contract cleaning is a "hidden industry"—new enough that OSHA still classifies its workers as janitors. And those workers are usually immigrants, often undocumented, and desperate enough to accept the hard work and poor wages commensurate with winning the low bid.
In 2007, two low-level QSI managers were scheduled for sentencing, guilty of hiring and providing stolen identities for illegal immigrants at an Illinois meatpacking plant. The managers were among 62 QSI employees—over half of QSI's workforce there—arrested in a raid by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. While the Vincit Group declined comment, the arrests highlight the problems inherent for a business created from and caught up in the ills of the industry it serves.

QSI is a subsidiary of The Vincit Group. This privately held industrial sanitation company was preparing to move into Brabson Place, a new, $15 million headquarters it co-owns along with Wolford Development and which anchors a key corner in downtown Chattanooga. The stately building symbolizes success for a business that began in 1968 as Zee Company, maker of industrial cleaning agents. Now Zee is one of The Vincit Group's five "vertically integrated" subsidiaries primarily serving meatpacking plants; its flagship, QSI, is thought to earn $10 to $20 million annually, staffing and managing cleaning crews for industry leaders like Cargill, Smithfield and Tyson.

Lance Compa, lecturer in labor law at Cornell University, says if contractors' top brass don't know about undocumented workers, it's because they "don't want to know," insulating themselves from lower-level management. But in 2003, when QSI employees at a North Carolina pork processing plant threatened a walkout, top management was on the scene. The National Labor Relations Board later found QSI guilty of assaulting the workers and threatening them with deportation.

123 comments:

dianne said...

See what I mean..greedy employers are responsible for this illegal immigration mess. And, the big meatpackers, etc. know dang well what they are doing by outsourcing the clean-up to contractors..so they feign innocence.

I say throw the book at them. By the way, I have personal friends whose father worked on the slaughter house floor in St. Joe and with his wages, which were very good for a dirty job (and he was a white guy citizen) he put both his kids through college. Of course the meatpacking moved out of the big cities into no man's land with the intent of importing illegal workers and cutting pay and benefits.

I say throw the book at the greedy employers, including contractors. They don't need unions if they operate legally.

Dee said...

I agree with you Dianne. The problem is, the Big Bosses are washing their hands of the responsibility. The only ones arrested were the low level managers.

Their strategy is so obvious. Hire contractors who hire sub contractors who seek out illegal immigrants, bring them in, provide them papers and have them work in hazardous conditions.

Dee said...

Until the business owners are implicated and imprisoned, the cycle will not change.

Dee said...

What I find interesting is this industry went from the highest organized to the least. It happen right around Reagan´s so called Amnesty. We had the highest rate of illegal immigration. It was like a choreographed dance. Big business hired contractors to bring in millions of illegal immigrants to work in hazardous conditions as they downsized and built up these mega-manufacturing plants in rural locations.

dianne said...

You're right, Dee. In the case of the plant in St. Joseph, Mo. why else move a meatpacking/slaughter plant out of an area (in a union state)that had been there for over 100 years with a ready supply of labor to an obscure place in Kansas (in a nonunion state) where there wasn't enough labor.It's all about the $$$. They don't care about the people, legal, illegal, whatever color, and now they cry about the raids even though they don't get fined once cent or sent to jail. It's sickening.

Liquidmicro said...

Big business and Corporations deserve to be ousted. They exploit all to make a profit, in turn we lose the small mom and pop companies that once were prosperous and employed much of the labor force. We need to get back to that type of business environment. These large companies are creating monopolies and it must end.

However, legalizing the 'illegals' here now will have little to no effect on these large corporations, and since it is very hard to Pin the owners and upper management, the 'illegals' must be removed, cutting the work force and forcing these monopolies to downsize, allowing more mom and pop companies to compete for fair business. We need to give the rights back to the workers. By legalizing the 'illegals' we do nothing at all to the corporations and they keep exploiting any and all that they can while still maintaining there large monopolies, and mom and pop go out of business.

Dee said...

Dianne and Liquid,
Given all we know. Knowing the 12M have accumulated to this number since Reagan´s 1986 Amnesty. Given we know Big Business exploited and did what they did.

Do we have any room, any room at all for those that have been here, contributing for over 5 years?

Liquidmicro said...

In my view, NO. Simply because they came here looking to make more money in a shorter period of time then staying in their home countries. They came here and displaced the American Citizen, thusly the Corporations then exploited them to control the rest of us. So in a since, the 'Illegals' allowed themselves to be exploited by corporations, simply because they still made more money here than they did back in their home countries.

With the declining of the dollar, maybe this will also help to slow down the influx of 'Illegal Immigrants' as they find it not worth coming here and making the same in their home countries. The cost of living here alone, should discourage them also. However, we know that it doesn't when they live 10 to a 3 bedroom house and split all the costs.

The ones that have been here the longest are actually the worst of the bunch.

patriot said...

It is BS to say that the employers are not being fined and or going to prison for hiring illegals. I just gave a couple of examples in the last week or so. Sure I wish it was on a larger scale and the wheels of justice moved more quickly but to state that they are all getting off scot free is a lie.

The blame is three-fold. The employers, our government and the illegals too. All need to be held accountable not just the employers.

Liquidmicro said...

WHAT'S the difference between an illegal immigrant on a job and a "scab" that crosses the picket line? After all, aren't both merely seeking work where they can find it? Aren't both willing to toil at a lower wage in an effort to feed their families?

Consider for a moment the hundreds of thousands of American workers in California alone who have been forced from jobs in construction, landscaping, auto-body repair, cable installation and a host of other jobs by an alliance of greed-driven employers and an ethnocentric lobby that's hungry for demographic power.

These aren't crop-picker or dishwasher jobs that Americans allegedly won't do, but rather entire skilled and semi-skilled industries that have provided the butter and bread for the working class table.

If there's any anger at all, it's actually directed at the American workers and their supporters for daring to speak out against the employers and the illegal immigrants who brazenly break the law to replace them on the job. They are belittled as bigots and dismissed as protectionists unable to adjust in a global economy.

As outlandish as those circumstances may seem, that's pretty much what has happened over the past two decades in a wide array of industries that provided critical paychecks for the American working class. Blue-collar communities have faced greater competition from workers illegally in the country, while simultaneously watching their access to education, health care and other social services suffer as a result of overcrowding and limited resources.

On the Left Coast today, illegal immigrants who replace blue-collar American workers are portrayed as heroic "hard-working immigrants." But the very moment they were to take a job from a privileged class of Americans (screenwriters, for example) you can bet they'd get an instant Hollywood makeover into job-poaching "scabs."


From : Crossing picket lines, class lines

Dee said...

Liquid,
I do agree with you somewhat.

As I continue to study this issue, as I see what Big Business has done, as I see how they have made a mockery of unions, the American Worker, wages, OSHA standards, building megacenters and bringing in - exploiting illegal immigrants, espeically OTMs, for profit, I become more and more appalled at the sheer audacity of what Big Business has done and what the Administration has allowed them to do.

It has only been since Reagan´s so called 1986 amnesty that the high rate of illegal immigration has occurred. This exploitation is additionally severe because many of the OTMs have no where to return to. It is especially audacious because the Administration has provided even more incentives for their cronies by providing them No Bid contracts for Detention Centers paid on a per head, per day basis and now, new bills call for crony border security contractors who will fill their deep pockets even more with the blood of the illegal immigrants.

Look at what happened in the Meat Packing industry. They brought in countless illegal immigrants from war torn countries. They gave them false documentation and exploited them. The Administration provided them waivers. This practice was mirrored across many industries. Why? For Profit.

If we are going to resolve this issue, we have to hold the CEOs and the Administration responsible and accountable. To date, we have seen very, very few employers held accountable for their misdeeds. Of those held accountable, perhaps we will see one or two low level supervisors or managers jailed. That does nothing, nothing to hold Big Business accountable.

If we are serious about change, we need to jail the CEOs and or put those businesses out of business.

However, that will NEVER happen. All we can do is fight amongst ourselves and rant against the exploited workers. This solves nothing.

Therefore we will continue to have these issues over and over and over again.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:

I become more and more appalled at the sheer audacity of what Big Business has done and what the Administration has allowed them to do.


Shouldn't that read: I become more and more appalled at the sheer audacity of what Big Business has done and what the Administrations (clinton, Bush) have allowed them to do.

Seems our Gov't and Big Business' believe in a Global economy, the problem is only they get to play, small business is still left out in the cold. With this we are losing our national sovereignty.

Anonymous said...

Dee -

as you know, i am for a compassionate deportation

i feel that with the majority of the 12 million undocumented compassionately deported from the usa there will be labor shortages.

you yourself have predicted labor shortages

with a shortage of labor, the meat packing plants will be forced BY THE FREE MARKET to improve wages and working conditions

so when business is terrified of a labor shortage, i say bring it on!

Dee, i think we are all moving closer to an eventual agreement.

With all due respect to Patriot, the truth in the USA is that wealthy anglo business interests are in control, and they need to be punished severely.

In my mind, a massive transfer of wealth from the big businesses that hired illegals over to the illegals themselves is warranted

My cards are on the table - i want a massive massive deportation.

But that deportation won't seem fair and just to me or to most of american unless it is done at the same time as a massive wave of punishment for the employers of the undocumented.

I would say the following to patriot and to the people on his side - show your true colors, show your bona fides.

states like arizona are the experiment that the whole country will be watching. IF in a state like Arizona there are plenty of powerful white employers fined and put in jail - if the guilty white employers are made to suffer and it is clear in the media that they are suffering, then i think most people can accept the effective expulsion of the undocumented from arizona.

if on the other hands, the white anglo employers get off and are seen to be getting off, then support for what is going on in arizona will not materialize.

This is my message to every single person in the anti movement - if you want to win the hearts and minds of the broad middle of the american population you damn well better make sure that there are plenty of rich white anglo employers suffering -

it would really be best for your cause if they were sent to the most dangerous, dirty, and disgusting prisons, and it would be best for your cause if that was televised.

in my humble opinion, if the antis don't get the wealthy white employers in to prison, the antis will look racist, they will look cruel and unfair.

however, if the wealthy white anglo employers are made to suffer, then i think that broad numbers of americans of all races will accept that most of the undocumented will have to be compassionately deported.

i know that i will.

All racists will dislike my message, but there needs to be some shared sacrifice on the part of all of us in order to correct this

Liquidmicro said...

Our middle class is left not just fending for itself, but to support our country with very little help from the Gov't. All the while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, the middle class pays the taxes, the Big Business gets paid sub-sidies (taxpayer monies) to line their pockets even more. Our purchases go to pay Big Business, while our workers our double crossed by the 'scabs', if you will, that work cheaper.

Everything goes to Big Business, we don't even get the scraps. This is a vicious circle we need to break from, you keep stating that things will NEVER happen, I am willing to bet that things WILL happen when enough people understand what exactly is going on.

The wording of the 1986 amnesty is where the problem lies, funding was never made available to enforce our laws because politicians were paid off by lobbyists for big business. Thus any bill that doesn't have the funding to enforce laws and that places immigrants on a path to citizenship (amnesty), will be shot down by the American Citizens of this great country. ANTI's as you call us, say to enforce current laws, we don't need any new laws that will give Big Business a pass or the crossers of the picket lines.

Anonymous said...

let me be direct

i personally dont care that patriot and the antis SAY that they want the wealthy anglo employers punished.

Words don't mean anything to me.

I want to see action.

Until and unless i personally see some severe painful punishment for the employers, I will personally not feel comfortable supporting the antis.

The ONLY way the antis can earn my respect is though punishment of the employers.

Patriot and the antis may laugh at me, but if they want to get the public behind the cause of deportation, they damn well should start building some alliances with people like me who believe in deportation but have some conditions and reservations.

if the antis just keep preaching to the echo chamber, and keep getting angrier and angrier i don't think they will get the deportation they seek

i speak for compassionate deportation, a deportation that most americans can feel good about.

Dee said...

Liquid, You are right about Administrations but I would extend it to Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2.

Liquidmicro said...

My (Bush) should have read (Bushs'). Reagen proposed the amnesty and signed it during his second term. For the following 3 years of his term, it does appear he didn't do much to enforce the laws he signed, but then again, congress may have never sent a bill to him with the funding either. So, can we then actually blame it all on the Pres. or can the blame lye two fold with the Pres. and Congress?

Dee said...

Liquid, The SEC wrote this report. They know what the Meat Packing industry did.

This reminds me of the Tobacco industry. Do you remember the letters the industry wrote about nicotine in cigarettes? There has to be documentation about the downsizing and moving the huge meatpacking plants to rural areas and outsourcing the "contract cleaning."

From the news article, this line was the most telling: "But in 2003, when QSI employees at a North Carolina pork processing plant threatened a walkout, top management was on the scene. The National Labor Relations Board later found QSI guilty of assaulting the workers and threatening them with deportation."

It seems they have enough evidence to prosecute and jail the CEOs, but they are not doing it.

Liquidmicro said...

The question is why are they not prosecuting?? Answer: Big Business and Congress, Big Business and Judges, money makes the world go round.

Anonymous said...

all of you are right

it is big money that makes the world go round

the big money ceos are scum

however, if you give the big money ceos the choice between deportation of every single undocumented or citizenship for every single undocumented

the big money ceos would choose citizenship.

citizenship means more low skill workers here in the usa

so when la raza asks for citizenship and the antis ask for deportation,
it is la raza on the side of the big money ceos

be careful when you choose a side in this !

patriot said...

Again dee won't blame the illegal workers themselves at all. Where is the proof that many of these illegal workers were brought in by the employers vs the illegal just showing up at their doorstep with fake I.D. looking for work?

What's with the OTM's all of a sudden? Trying to take the heat off the illegal Mexicans, dee? 60% of the illegals are Mexicans, not OTM's.

She says punish the employers and that they along with our government are to blame but never says anything about punishing the illegals or any blame on their part. To her the poor little illegals are just being exploited. How does one get exploited without one's cooperation to do so? She will not put any personal responibility on the illegals themselves and that is why she can never argue her point in here and get anywhere. She never will either until she blames all three guilty parties and wants all of them punished. Don't anyone hold your breath in here for that.

dianne said...

Dee asked us a question.
"Dianne and Liquid,
Given all we know. Knowing the 12M have accumulated to this number since Reagan´s 1986 Amnesty. Given we know Big Business exploited and did what they did. Do we have any room, any room at all for those that have been here, contributing for over 5 years?"

The answer, Dee, is yes, but, I can't capture my thoughts without a whole lot more study and understanding. I know what was done before failed (amnesty for those already here) so I'm not inclined to think the same thing will work again.

One thing that really concerns me is that illegals have now taken jobs that Americans willingly did as middle class citizens. Construction is a prime example. It pays well. People can have a nice life in construction, raise their families, send kids to college, but now that's being taken away from them in the form of lower wages and quite frankly, less jobs available. Landscaping is another area. My own nephews ran a profitable landscaping business in Illinois but gave it up when illegals undercut them to the point they couldn't get a bid or make a profit because they had to play by the taxation rules.

I'm inclined to go with a guest worker program that is enhanced to provide for workers where they are actually needed with the freedom of those guest workers to come and go with appropriate documentation. Also, I am inclined to revise the whole citizenship process so that the tangled mess it has become is much more streamlined not just for Latin countries but for everyone.

Finally, these guest workers cannot be supported by American taxpayers. It must be the employers. If they need them bad enough, then they need to pay for whatever social services they use.

That's "sorta" where I'm at.

patriot said...

anon, where you lose me is by making statements like "wealthy white anglo employers". All employers should be punished, not just white anglo ones. You are putting race into this issue and that is where you and your ideas lack credibility with me. You are like dee too, you don't want to admit the guilt on the part of the illegals themselves.

Even if the employers were made to give the illegals a single large monetary bribe to leave our country, it would only encourage more to come. It would have the same results as another amnesty.

I don't understand why you think they deserve a humanitarian deportation in this way. They mostly came on their own accord knowing full well they were breaking our laws. An American citizen who breaks the law doesn't get some kind of reward for doing so, they just go to jail.

patriot said...

anon, just how much control over this situation do you think we everyday anti Americans have over government and our justice system? We have been screaming about punishing the employers who have been hiring illegals. Do you have your head in the sand?

That is why we want the SAVE ACT to pass and the e-verify system mandatory in the workplace so that employers can no longer get away with this. What do you want us to do with those already caught and are under investigation or convicted already? Do you want us to go get a rope and hang them ourselves?

patriot said...

diane, I agree with most of your points.

patriot said...

diane, the only thing I would add to your points is that we must also take into consideration our popualation growth. We don't need an economy to support a population so large that it puts our natural resources at risk of depletion, our schools, hospitals, roads, etc. become overcrowded and we are putting up homes and businesses on every square inch to support a large population growth.

I also think it only fair to have quotas for legal immigrants from different walks of life to assist in the assimilation process and well, just because it is the fair thing to do.

Dee said...

According to wikipedia, Outsourcing became popular in the 80´s, right around the time of Reagan´s so-called amnesty. When we think about the Meat Packing industry, the SEC report tells us the rate of employees injured on the job is 36%. On-duty accidents are the most expensive form of employee absence. Not only is the employee non-productive and off the job, the employee is on workman´s comp and also the company is liable if sued. Often times workers hurt on the job take lengthier disabilities vs non work related injuries –illness. This is extremely costly to the company.

From a Corporate perspective, outsourcing makes sense. The company outsources these costly headaches to a contractor. The company is not liable if the contractor is unscrupulous and doesn´t follow OSHA standards and hires illegal immigrants. They target illegal immigrants because they cannot sue, they cannot complain and succumb to working in unsafe conditions for little pay.

What did Romney say last night. “Am I supposed to ask every worker my contractor employs for their papers?”

This is how most Corporations get away with unlawful hiring. They purposely outsource to unscrupulous low cost contractors, no questions asked. (wink wink) Therefore they are not liable for any wrongdoings and save millions in sickness pay, workmans comp and litigation.

In the contractor QSI case, the company managers were found guilty for hiring the illegal immigrants and also for providing them stolen identities. Additionally, in 2003, QSI top management assaulted the workers and threatened them with deportation.

Human Rights Watch has also issued a report concluding the nation's meat packing industry violates basic human and worker rights.

Dee said...

Dianne, I am in agreement with your recommendations.

1. guest worker program that is enhanced to provide for workers where they are actually needed with the freedom of those guest workers to come and go with appropriate documentation.
2. revise the whole citizenship process so that the tangled mess it has become is much more streamlined not just for Latin countries but for everyone.

3. guest workers cannot be supported by American taxpayers. It must be the employers. If they need them bad enough, then they need to pay for whatever social services they use.

patriot said...

anon, are you aware of the number of family owned Hispanic businesses that hire illegal aliens? Many of the illegals are employed at their restaurants, ethnic stores, landscaping, cleaning, and construction businesses, etc.

You might find that they employ just as many illegal aliens overall as do the white anglo business owners. That is why I object to you just targeting white anglo business owners. All employers of illegals should be punished and the illegals deported.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
What did Romney say last night. “Am I supposed to ask every worker my contractor employs for their papers?”


This is where the E-Verify and SS no match letters will come into play. I agree with Romney on his answer. As a person, home owner, you hire a contractor to come in and lets say, fix your leaking roof, a crew of men show up that represent the company, who's responsibility is it to verify those men are legal workers?? Who's responsibility is it to verify that the contractor is paying these workers correctly??

Now, there are laws on the books that answer those questions, the problem is who verifies the business owner?? Self policing of all this certainly isn't working, for if it were, we wouldn't have employers such as Fla. Contractor Underreported Payroll by $17 Million, and another, 3 Arrested For Hiring Illegal Immigrants. This RCI Company, has many like it here in CA, my business competition, they do use unfair business practices that cut and undermine those of us that are legitimate companies.

By allowing the 'illegals' a path to citizenship is granting amnesty then to big business, as they will not be punished in any way.

If we can secure our borders, go after these companies that hire these 'Illegals' with the E-Verify and No-Match letters, this will go along way in solving the paradox of 'illegal immigration', in my view. Once this is done, then we can talk about a guest worker program, as Ultima has been stating, where workers may be needed, if any are at all. We must streamline the immigration process by dropping the family visas, where most of the back log is, thus speeding up the processing. We need to split the work in two, DHS takes care of visas for all who wish to come to the USA, while ICE takes care of the workers who wish to come to the USA.

Your #3 Could be agreed upon: guest workers cannot be supported by American taxpayers. It must be the employers. If they need them bad enough, then they need to pay for whatever social services they use.

Dee said...

Pat,
I know you ASSUME this, but provide proof, urls please...

PATs Assumptions:
are you aware of the number of family owned Hispanic businesses that hire illegal aliens?

Dee said...

Liquid,
This is where you and I disagree. I think it is the accountability and responsibility of the Owner to validate and confirm citizenship.
Let´s talk about Swift. Should Swift ask ASI for the documentation on all of their employees? That is the million dollar question or task that needs to be completed.
If SWIFT is help accountable for 100% of ASIs employees and their HR Staffing Policies, then their CEOs would be in prison today and we would have accountability.
The reason we are in this mess is because the Business Owners sought out Contractors so they would NOT be held accountable! They say “I Know Nothing” but in reality, they set up these empirical scams to side step accountability.
The whole issue of “path to citizenship” is totally separate from Employer Accountability.

Romney got a pass by the media that the contractors hired illegal immigrants. THIS IS A BOGUS ARGUMENT. The Employers KNOW but they are just claiming "I KNOW NOTHING!"

patriot said...

Oh come on dee, stop being naive. You know damn good and well that there are Hispanic business owners that hire illegal aliens.

Liquidmicro said...

I am talking about Romney as a person hiring a company, you are talking about a Corporation Sub-Contracting to a company. There is a big difference there. Sure, the Corporation should and usually does require that all its subs have legal employees, but how can the average home owner be assured that a company doesn't have unauthorized workers on its payroll??

Liquidmicro said...

As a company that subs out work to another company, how can the original contractor be held accountable for who the sub hires?? It is the responsibility of the sub to verify the workers status, usually by signing an affidavit. It is not the responsibility of the contractor to verify subs employees, although I agree with you, they should be held accountable to higher standards. The problem lies in, not all forges or false documents are easily recognizable, and not all business owners are ICE Agents. Again, this is why we need to have E-Verify and the no-match letters, for employers to become these ICE agents and put a stop to it once and for all.

Liquidmicro said...

Lets do this.... Dee, call a local business in your area that does Tree Care, have a quote to have your trees pruned, make a date for the work to proceed, and when that tree crew shows up, YOU demand there work authorization papers. Will see how many have it, and will see if your trees get pruned.

You are there employer now, just as you are claiming Romney to have been. You should be able to verify there status.




How many 'Illegals' did ICE agents arrest, Dee, from your property just now??

Dee said...

I understand your point Liquid.

We all have this dance. We hire a contractor and they hire sub contractors and we all play this don´t ask don´t tell policy.

Everyone does it. Politicians try harder not to because they are afraid it will come up in their election campaign.

We all know and we all hire contractors. That is the problem.

So why do we throw grenades at the illegal immigrants if we all do this?

Anonymous said...

testing

Anonymous said...

dee, here is an article about a Hispanic business owner who hired illegal aliens. During my search I also found many stories about many employers who have been prosecuted for hiring illegal aliens of which you say isn't happening.

On May 10, 2006, ICE agents in Missouri arrested the owner Julio’s Mexican Restaurants with two locations in Missouri and Iowa for knowingly hiring illegal aliens, a criminal charge. ICE agents determined that the employees had not been asked to complete Form I-9 or provide any documentation verifying their employment eligibility. ICE agents also arrested twenty-one illegal aliens during the worksite enforcement operation.

Patiot

What is going on here that I have to post under anonymous now?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

I understand your point Liquid.

We all have this dance. We hire a contractor and they hire sub contractors and we all play this don´t ask don´t tell policy.

Everyone does it. Politicians try harder not to because they are afraid it will come up in their election campaign.

We all know and we all hire contractors. That is the problem.

So why do we throw grenades at the illegal immigrants if we all do this?


Paragraph 1: We all have this dance. We hire a contractor and they hire sub contractors and we all play this don´t ask don´t tell policy.

You hire a contractor to perform work at our house, they provide the labor, no subs here unless you hire a General Contractor who subs out specific job related items.

The question is: Are you going to verify that the workers are legal?? How are you going to do that as they are not your employees but the contractors or the subs?? You yourself can not be held liable for
insuring that they are legal workers as you have no right to verify, thus the responsibility falls on the contractor.

Paragraph 2: Everyone does it. Politicians try harder not to because they are afraid it will come up in their election campaign.

See above answer to paragraph 1.

Paragraph 3&4: We all know and we all hire contractors. That is the problem. So why do we throw grenades at the illegal immigrants if we all do this?

How do you propose to enforce and punish the contractors without giving them what they want, more cheap labor, now legal, by legalizing the illegal immigrants?? This will let the employers off scott free, only to go and continue to do it. The illegals here have, for there own benefit, allowed the employers to get away with it, and wish to continue to do so. The illegals are part of the problem, your own headline and story confirm that, and by removing the illegals from the equation, repatriation, this will in turn punish the employers, as they lose profits, it will give the American Citizen the upper hand and restore the safety issues you stated earlier to be put back into place, provide a living wage for employees, along with benefits that have been removed over the years. The Citizen employee should be the one benefiting not the illegal employee.

Dee said...

Pat,
You should be fine to post. We all are posting ok.

What I said was I have not seen an employer serve 1 day in prison. Have we? Do you have a url that says to?

I know swift people were not charged. Insolia in New Bedford still has not served any time.
I know there are 2 lower level QSI managers that may be charged.

Dee said...

You know Liquid, the only ones being penalized are the illegal immigrants themselves. We know about many of them serving time in the deplorable detention centers.

When we look at Meat Packing for example, the employers were not charged. Look at the reports. They used to be strongly union organized and had well paid union workers. Now, the Big Owners have put the smaller business owners out of business. Big Business has outsourced and moved to right to work states. They have hired contractors who hired illegal immigrants and provided them papers.

We need to hold the Big Business owners accountable. How do we do it? Are you saying they have found a way to get away with it and they will never be charged?

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
We need to hold the Big Business owners accountable. How do we do it? Are you saying they have found a way to get away with it and they will never be charged?


Yes, they have found a way to get away with it up until now. E-Verify and the SS No Match letters was a start, however the corporate guard dogs, AFL-CIO, NILC, and the Central Labor Council of Alameda County, along with other local labor movements.

Labor movements have put a stop to it. WHO do labor movements work for?? It sure isn't the legal laborer, but the large business that wants cheap labor for bigger profits, all in order to compete on the world economy, with countries like China.

patriot said...

Here is one article where an employer got jail time. There are many more.

knoxnews.com/news/2007/aug/28/restaurateur-gets-jail-time · Cached page
Jim Kouri -- Immigration

patriot said...

I was re-reading the Swift Meat Packing incident of which dee is crying that the employer wasn't charged. Well here is the reason why.

“Swift has never condoned the employment of unauthorized workers, nor have we ever knowingly hired such individuals,” Swift & Co. President and CEO Sam Rovit said in a written statement.


Since 1997, Swift has been using a government pilot program that confirms whether Social Security numbers are valid. Company officials have previously said one shortcoming may be in the program’s ability to detect when two people are trying to use the same number.






Several rings suspected
Myers said immigration officials were “looking very aggressively” at who may have sold the identities to the workers in several cases. She said ICE had uncovered several different rings that may have provided illegal documents.

Some immigrants targeted had genuine U.S. birth certificates, and others had other kinds of false identification, Myers said.

“The significance is that we’re serious about work site enforcement and that those who steal identities of U.S. citizens will not escape enforcement,” Myers said.


“We have been investigating a large identity theft scheme that has victimized many U.S. citizens and lawful residents,” said ICE spokeswoman Barbara Gonzalez at the plant in Greeley.

Liquidmicro said...

The inadequate immigration enforcement in the United States is a money-making plan by North American governments and multinational corporations.

The governments of Canada, Mexico and the United States, backed by corporations, will soon merge in a union that will eliminate American sovereignty (The NAU and SPP).

Illegal Immigration is really not the issue it appears to be. The only winners here are the multinational corporations. We the people are the losers of our sovereignty.

Liquidmicro said...

The only people who benefit are the multinational corporations. The illegal immigrants themselves are not really the enemy, it's the economic policies and the greed that drives the marketplace that are the enemies.

As citizens of any country, we need to question the messages that the economists and big business tell us about what is really necessary to live. They look at everyone of us as consumers and producers, which makes all of us just cog wheels in a greedy money making machine. Our society measures all of us by how much money we make. Learn to question the assumption that "free market" capitalism is the only way to view the world and that everything on the planet is a "resource" to be bought and sold. That perception of things is destroying the world and us along with it.

patriot said...

liquid, although I agree that big business and government are the ultimate enemy of the people one cannot excuse their pawns (the illegals) for their willingness to cooperate with them.

dianne said...

Big business IS the BIG culprit. They should be responsible for holding their sub-contractors responsible. When big business starts playing by the rules, subcontractors will follow or go out of business.

I worked for a big company that had chemicals on site that terrorists would love to get their hands on. They did background checks on every single person they hired. We had to produce certified birth certificates as a condition of employment. I would venture to guess there are no illegal immigrants at that company to this day. I can also assure you that there was not one person who didn't speak English, not even the cleaning crew that was subcontracted. I'm sure the subcontractors were warned that they would be turned over to ICE if they sent illegals to our worksite.

It can be done. Perhaps it might cost the employers some money up front, but it wouldn't take long before the problem was resolved.

patriot said...

diane, that is why we need the SAVE ACT passed. It would be mandatory for all employers to verify that their workers are here legally. The no match letters need to be sent out also. Those opposing it are making every excuse in the book not to. Their most ridiculous claim is that Americans whose SS numbers don't match in the data base would be fired. If they are legitimate workers they would have 90 days to clear up the mistakes.

It was mentioned on tv the other day that the SS data base is 93% accurate right now. That only leaves a 7% error margin. I am guessing that probably a good 5% are due from illegal aliens using someone elses number or a fake number. We have to start somewhere and I say "no more excuses".

Liquidmicro said...

I agree with you Diane, the problem is the type of company you are talking about is for dangerous materials, there are a lot more things involved in the handling of it that requires special conditions for employment.

Dee and I were talking about Gov. Romney and his use of a Landscape Company that employed 'Illegal Immigrants' for which she feels Romney should have checked the status of the Landscape Companies workers. I gave an example of how he has no right to and stated the same as you, Patriot, about the SAVE Act and the SS No-Match Letters. Again, we all are talking about different parts of the Big Business.

Every company should be as such Diane, no matter how large or small.

Patriot, I too hold 'Illegals' to blame for their part in the problem. I compete against them everyday in my line of work, either they work for another company or they are in 'Illegal' Business for themselves, cutting grass and pruning trees usually for 1/3 the price of me and they have no licenses or insurances, but the homeowners don't care, they just see the cheap price.

My 2 posts above are explaining who benefits from the 'Illegals' and whats going to happen to the citizens. This scenario, I believe, will happen if the 'Illegals' get a path to citizenship, thus good old more labor than work, keeping supply high and demand low, or if we do not enforce current laws and institute newer laws against big business. We need something like the SAVE Act, although I think some parts should be changed in it but I will live with how it is, and the SS No-Match Letters, as SS knows for who and where the 'Illegals' are working.

dianne said...

From what I've read of the SAVE Act, I'm for it. The idea that social security doesn't have to share what they know with victims of stolen identities is almost beyond comprehension. I like the other provisions of the Act too. The ACLU and Chamber of Commerce and the like who oppose it don't give a damn how accurate the data base is. It's all an excuse and the American public knows it. The problem is these legal challenges work because activist judges (like Bryer) are sitting on the bench. I am not too optimistic that the SAVE Act will pass.

Dee said...

Dianne, you are right. Of course knew Swift and all the Meat Packing companies knew what they were doing. They moved their mega centers to rural areas in right to work states. They brought in contractors who would bypass the immigration laws. Their knowing how to skirt the law doesn´t make them innocent of breaking the laws and gaining from their deceit!

Dee said...

Liquid,
I agree with all of your points.
So why don´t groups target this issue?
Why, instead, do they target illegal immigrants?
Why do so many groups make this a race issue and target anyone brown? You read alipac.us. You read the MM sites. You may venture into Stormfront or the Nazi sites. You see what they are promoting. You know what I am talking about.

Why doesn´t your side target the true problems?
We could all be on the same side!

Liquid Said:
Illegal Immigration is really not the issue it appears to be. The only winners here are the multinational corporations. We the people are the losers of our sovereignty.
The illegal immigrants themselves are not really the enemy, it's the economic policies and the greed that drives the marketplace that are the enemies.
The inadequate immigration enforcement in the United States is a money-making plan by North American governments and multinational corporations.

The governments of Canada, Mexico and the United States, backed by corporations, will soon merge in a union that will eliminate American sovereignty (The NAU and SPP).

Dee said...

Personally, I believe in the Secure ID Act. It is the employers´ responsibility to confirm employees identities. I believe those that skirt the law are looking to exploit their workers. (eg. underpay, no osha standards, poor working conditions, etc.)

Here is where I disagree with the SAVE ACT:
1. Mass Deportation of 12M people
2. Utilizing Contractors like Blackwater to patrol the border.
3. Expanded number and misuse of Detention Centers

Instead we should:
1. Legalizes via Guest Worker programs the qualifying members of 12M (eg. crime free, tax payments, etc)
2. Secure ID Act established
3. Employer Sanctions for those not abiding by Secure ID Act. There is no excuse for not verifying their employees. Prison time for those who do not follow the law, starting with the CEO.
4. Secure Borders utilizing trained BP Agents

patriot said...

dee, prove that Swift knew they were hiring illegal aliens or is this your usual accusations based on hearsay and biased opinion like with the MM? They said they used the system in place to identify illegal workers and the feds said there was a ring of thieves that were counterfeiting I.D.'s. We know you always want to blame the employer rather the illegals in spite of the evidence to the contrary. If the employer was to blame then why wasn't he/they charged?

It isn't unusual for businesses to move from the city to the suburbs as it is cheaper to operate there and I am not talking about cheap illegal labor either.

patriot said...

dee, you are once again pulling the race card. What do you mean by targeting "brown people"? It doesn't matter what color an illegal alien is, they should be targeted. The majority of illegals are "brown" so what is your point? You and your illegal sympathizers are the ones making it a race issue, not the anti's.

I say both the employers and the illegals should be targeted and punished. But you only want the employers targeted and punished while rewarding the illegals with legalization. That is pure bias, dee.

As I asked you before why do you go into those radical group websites? Most of them do not represent the majority of anti's views in this country at least nothing based on racism does. Your arguments are non-existant dee and that is why you do it. You have no arguments against most anti's views which are for the rule of law and the negative impact of uncontrolled illegal immigration into our country so you keep harping about the minority of racist groups in this country as if this supports your arguments and nullifies the sane anti's views. So sad really.

Dee said...

Pat,
Reread Liquids posts. Maybe you will listen to him.

patriot said...

dee, I re-read all of liquid's post and I don't see where he and I are disagreeing. However, you conveniently ignore my points and won't address them as usual.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee asks:
Why doesn´t your side target the true problems?
We could all be on the same side!


A lot on our side do target the true problems. Most of us in here argue the true problems, but sometimes with some of your arguments back we all get caught up in the fringe arguments. It is a 2 way street.

You, just happen to frequent fringe sites that have racial bias such as Stormfront and KKK. Ali-Pac puts a stop on most racial topics, some of the members do as well, but there are a few that do not.

Pat, Ultima, myself and a few others attempt to get you to get out of those fringe sites and argue what we ask or state, however you keep referencing those fringe sites, so in turn we bring up the Reconquista movements. Its a vicious circle for which you hold some blame in, Dee.

From now on, if you don't argue the Racial biasness from those fringe groups, neither will I.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee asks:
Why, instead, do they target illegal immigrants?
Why do so many groups make this a race issue and target anyone brown?


'Illegals' are targeted for many reasons, mostly the breaking of our immigration laws, document forgery, the list goes on. Most people don't want to think that our Gov't would sell out the American Citizen, now that the Citizen has awoken to what the Gov't and Big Business has been up to, they all have to pay. It falls back to this:

WHAT'S the difference between an illegal immigrant on a job and a "scab" that crosses the picket line? After all, aren't both merely seeking work where they can find it? Aren't both willing to toil at a lower wage in an effort to feed their families?

Consider for a moment the hundreds of thousands of American workers in California alone who have been forced from jobs in construction, landscaping, auto-body repair, cable installation and a host of other jobs by an alliance of greed-driven employers and an ethnocentric lobby that's hungry for demographic power.

These aren't crop-picker or dishwasher jobs that Americans allegedly won't do, but rather entire skilled and semi-skilled industries that have provided the butter and bread for the working class table.

If there's any anger at all, it's actually directed at the American workers and their supporters for daring to speak out against the employers and the illegal immigrants who brazenly break the law to replace them on the job. They are belittled as bigots and dismissed as protectionists unable to adjust in a global economy.

As outlandish as those circumstances may seem, that's pretty much what has happened over the past two decades in a wide array of industries that provided critical paychecks for the American working class. Blue-collar communities have faced greater competition from workers illegally in the country, while simultaneously watching their access to education, health care and other social services suffer as a result of overcrowding and limited resources.

On the Left Coast today, illegal immigrants who replace blue-collar American workers are portrayed as heroic "hard-working immigrants." But the very moment they were to take a job from a privileged class of Americans (screenwriters, for example) you can bet they'd get an instant Hollywood makeover into job-poaching "scabs."


From : Crossing picket lines, class lines

Bob said...

Unsanitary illegal Mexican workers are responsible for the huge increase in e-coli contamination of meat products in the US during the past couple of years. Some meat companies have gone bankrupt by "saviing money" employing illegal aliens.

Alien workers have imported the unsanitary (by American standards) conditions of their homelands. Hand washing, daily bathing, clean clothing, all are common among Americans but uncommon among illegal aliens from rural villages. When coming here to work for low pay they aren't paying for a good home with decent sanitation.

Americans are getting sick and dying from contaminated food. American meat companies are having to recall millions of dollars worth of contaminated meat and going bankrupt. It is a huge disaster for American companies as well as for American citizens.

dianne said...

If I remember right, Swift had been told there would be a raid and let over 400 people go before the raid actually took place. Now, if they cleaned house before the raid, then they knew they had a problem and had ignored it until the threat of a raid came. Apparently they didn't clean house well enough as more illegals were caught during the raid.

If I'm wrong about this, correct me. I don't have time to research as I'm on the way out the door.

Dee said...

Liquid,
While I agree with many of your points, I do not agree with you when you say your side does not demonize the Illegal Immigrants and Hispanics as a whole.

All I have to do is look at Bob´s posts, many of Pats, and most of Alipacs. I just went over there for a quick look and 9 out of 10 threads are about illeegals and hispanics while 1 is about Hillary and they are bemoaning how the hostagew news will only get her more publicity.

We would all be on the same side if we target the exploiting employers like Swift. Yes their leaders did know. All you have to do is follow their pattern to confirm. You know this Liquid, yet they continue to do this and because of the contracting process, they are able to get away with it.

Dee said...

there was not one thread in alipac and nothing from good ole Bob about "The inadequate immigration enforcement in the United States is a money-making plan by North American governments and multinational corporations."

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
I do not agree with you when you say your side does not demonize the Illegal Immigrants and Hispanics as a whole.


I didn't say my side does not demonize Illegal immigrants. My statement was:
A lot on our side do target the true problems. MOST of us in HERE argue the true problems, but sometimes with some of your arguments back we all get caught up in the fringe arguments. It is a 2 way street.

You, just happen to frequent fringe sites that have racial bias such as Stormfront and KKK. Ali-Pac puts a stop on MOST racial topics, some of the members do as well, but there are a few that do not.

Pat, Ultima, myself and a few others attempt to get you to get out of those fringe sites and argue what we ask or state, however you keep referencing those fringe sites, so in turn we bring up the Reconquista movements. Its a vicious circle for which you hold some blame in, Dee.

As for Bob, his leading line of: Unsanitary illegal Mexican workers.
Could have been re-worded so not to sound so racially biased. However, his following arguments have been stated in past articles from the news.

As for Pat, his intentions are good, but, like you, likes to argue semantics.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
We would all be on the same side if we target the exploiting employers like Swift. Yes their leaders did know. All you have to do is follow their pattern to confirm. You know this Liquid, yet they continue to do this and because of the contracting process, they are able to get away with it.


To target the employers we need the ability to do so. E-Verify and SS No-Match letters are the means to do so. The contracting process can also be the fact that they higher the cheapest bid, but they should also stipulate in that bid, like Sac County here does by running background checks before a contract is awarded verifying a workers ability to work. The problem is, current law does not require that to happen in private business, and for States, its their own choices to do so.

patriot said...

dee, please copy and paste those remarks made by myself where I put down Hispanic citizens other than those who show disloyalty to this country by supporting illegal immigration. I will not allow you to lie about things I have said or haven't said in here.

patriot said...

dee, why do you continue to go into those anti groups and assume that all of their views are those of the majority of the anti's? We just discussed this a few posts ago, yet you continue to do this.

patriot said...

dee, we would all be on the same side if both the anti's and the pro's targeted all guilty parties, not just the employers. I am willing to do this, are you?

Dee said...

Liquid,
It is clear you do not wish to acknowledge the tactics most on your side use. Your not seeing Bob´s comments for what they are is very telling.

Until you do, we will continue to have these disagreements.

Go to any ANTI site. Any of them. Count the number of threads dedicated to the actual problem: The inadequate immigration enforcement in the United States is a money-making plan by North American governments and multinational corporations. (none)

Then count the number of threads making deplorable statements and exaggerations against illegal immigrants and Hispanics. (99 - 100%)

You choose to remain in denial. I thought you were getting close to agreement when you finally acknowledged the true problem and root cause.

I guess it was too much to hope for.

Dee said...

Bob,
Your blatant racist statement is disgusting and a lie. Prove it or don´t bring it up again.

Bob´s comment
Unsanitary illegal Mexican workers are responsible for the huge increase in e-coli contamination of meat products in the US during the past couple of years.

Dee said...

Bob,
Your statement reminds me of all the threads on alipac about the comedy youtube where a canadian taped some guy pooping in a flowerpot. alipac claimed it was an illegal immigrant with unsanitary habits. They even tried to get some AM Shock Jocks to talk about it on the air.

Guess what. I exposed their lie on the youtube site. Did they ever take it back? Nope!

Dee said...

Pat,
You yourself acknowledge you put down all Hispanics who you ASSUME "Show Disloyalty." You Assume, Assume, Assume and put down every day. It gets very tiring Pat. Use urls and facts and quit ASSUMing!


Pats statement:
dee, please copy and paste those remarks made by myself where I put down Hispanic citizens OTHER THAN THOSE WHO SHOW DISLOYALTY to this country by supporting illegal immigration.

Liquidmicro said...

Again with the 'Guilty by Association' ploy. Bob may be on the Anti side, but we do have different views. His are his, mine are mine.

His accusations are poorly worded, however they are for the most part true.
Goat was killed at eatery tied to E. coli
Officials close China Grove restaurant where employees slaughtered animal in kitchen


Again yo are falling into the semantics argument. Fringe is what all ANTI's are, according to you, yet you will not except the fact that your side also has these fringe elements.

patriot said...

And dee, I guess it was too much for liquid and I to ask you to stop going into those anti sites where some racism exists so you would stop classifying all anti's in the same catagory. You continue to do this and for what reason, dee? I know why, dee. It is because the only way you can justify your agenda is to demonize all anti's. Even those of us who are not racists and we are the majority. We both have pointed this out to you and yet you still persist. Are you not comprehending what we are saying or are you just choosing to ignore it?

I am not defending Bob but it is true that most illegals are from Mexico and many of them do live in rurual areas where sanitation is lacking. Since they sneak in here without health checks it is not unreasonable nor racist to use common sense that when those conditions exist there is a high probably that they could be transmitting deseases here.

I am still waiting for you to cut and past my so-called negative remarks about Hispanic citizens other than those that are disloyal to our country.

Liquidmicro said...

I can go to any PRO side and do the same thing, GET OUT OF THE FRINGE SITES!! Your head will thank you for it. Until you can learn to argue against us on your blog, don't treat us like we are from the Fringe. Your responses play a large role in our responses. Like wise, vice versa. We each are entitled to our opinions, welcome to the fryer!!!

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
You choose to remain in denial. I thought you were getting close to agreement when you finally acknowledged the true problem and root cause.

I guess it was too much to hope for.


You better go back to the MATT board and read what I began posting about when I started there. You in fact, couldn't believe I acknowledged the fact the the "illegals" were being exploited. I shown many stories/articles pertaining to root cause, such as farm sub-sidies, temp agencies exploiting the workers, etc., you always turned it into a fringe argument along with joel. There at the end of MATT, Aztec Woman came in and made many accusations, never crediting anything, yet you agreed with her and never denounced her. This is a 2 way street, you wish to go fringe, then we shall respond fringe, you wish to discuss rationally, so shall we.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You are way off base.
Your article was about a Chinese Restaurant staffed with citizens and legal immigrants. Illegal Immigrants or Hispanics were not mentioned.

What does this have to do with Bob´s LIE?



1. Bob´s LIE:
Unsanitary illegal Mexican workers are responsible for the huge increase in e-coli contamination of meat products

2. Liquid´s Article:
Health officials closed a China Grove restaurant linked to a deadly E. coli

Dee said...

Liquid,
I don´t recall Aztec Woman´s specific comments, but I do remember her as a nice person.

I remember you and I were going at it pretty strongly back then. In fact, I enjoyed our fights.

You seem much calmer, more civil and, for the most part, are bringing more logic to your discussions. I like this better.

Dee said...

Pat,
I´ve answered you several times on this same subject.

Also, Liquid doesn´t want me to link his feedback or arguments with Bob or you so don´t link him in to yours. You are beginning to sound like Barney Fife.

We will leave it at that.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee says:
Also, Liquid doesn´t want me to link his feedback or arguments with Bob or you so don´t link him in to yours. You are beginning to sound like Barney Fife.


Where did I say that?? You are reading to much into things, Dee.

Liquidmicro said...

As for the article about E-Coli, you obviously only read the headline. from the article:
Health officials said they interviewed 26 employees and heard conflicting stories. The goat was slaughtered sometime between May 11 and May 20, Wood said. Restaurant patrons got sick between May 26 and June 3, Wood said Monday.

Several of the employees are Hispanic, Wood said, and health officials used a translator to conduct some interviews.

Dee said...

Liquid,
You said you did not want to be guilty by association. See below.

Unless you are telling me you are the Sheriff.


Liquid said:
Again with the 'Guilty by Association' ploy. Bob may be on the Anti side, but we do have different views. His are his, mine are mine.

Dee said...

Liquid,
Where did the article say there were illegal immigrants?
Hint: Nowhere.

Dee said...

Additionally, the goat was part of a Chinese dish. I would expect someone of Asian ethnicity prepared the dish.

Liquidmicro said...

Granted, Bob read his own version, but what he was referring to did happen.


His version, is just that, his. However, the basics are, even though this is one account, it is factual.

Dee said...

Additionally, they don´t even know the goat had anything to do with it.

"Health officials cannot prove the outbreak of the intestinal disease was caused by the goat slaughter, Wood said. It will be hard to establish a link without finding part of the goat carcass.

"I'm not sure we'll ever be able to confirm the goat (as the source of the illness), or anything, for that matter," he said.

patriot said...

dee, where have you answered about visiting radical fringe groups? Liquid and I have both told you to stop doing that and linking the majority of anti's with their views. Where have you addressed this suggestion, where dee?

If liquid doesn't want me mentioning his name as in my remark above, then why doesn't liquid tell me so. Who are you, his mother?

Liquidmicro said...

No, you accused all ANTI's to be that of the fringe and you implied Bob as being fringe with his racial response, thus all ANTI's are fringe.

for which I responded, with you are making us 'Guilty by Association' with the fringe. Follow along, it is hard to do, I understand, many conversations going on at once about this topic, all at different levels.

Liquidmicro said...

Goat is not part of a Chinese Dish. The Hispanics purchased the goat.: Brown said he was told the goat wasn't killed "for some religious or cultural reason, but simply a desire to cook the goat and eat it."

Brown said the employees bought the goat from a local farmer and brought it into the restaurant after hours, Brown said.

The employees killed the goat in the kitchen, but took it elsewhere to cook, Brown said.

Dee said...

Bobs statements were ludicrous.

Here is Bob´s statement with the word Irish instead of Mexican. This is the same thing that was said about the Irish (See Gangs of New York). Are you Irish Liquid:

Unsanitary illegal IRISH workers are responsible for the huge increase in e-coli contamination of meat products in the US during the past couple of years. Some meat companies have gone bankrupt by "saviing money" employing illegal aliens.

Alien workers have imported the unsanitary (by American standards) conditions of their homelands. Hand washing, daily bathing, clean clothing, all are common among Americans but uncommon among illegal aliens from rural villages. When coming here to work for low pay they aren't paying for a good home with decent sanitation.

Americans are getting sick and dying from contaminated food. American meat companies are having to recall millions of dollars worth of contaminated meat and going bankrupt. It is a huge disaster for American companies as well as for American citizens.

Dee said...

The article did not say a Hispanic killed the goat. It is not in the article.

Also, what does this have to do with illegal immigrants?

Also they don´t know the goat caused the ecoli. read the article.

You continue to ASSUME. your argument is Baseless!

Dee said...

Goat is an Asian Dish:

20. Cafe Ophelia
4 star rating
10118 Bandley Drive
Cupertino, CA 95014
(408) 255-1099
Category: Asian Fusion


GOAT STEW (yeah, all 3 locations have it this time of year)
This location has these little earthenware pots that they heat up and then you cook food in them. Tasty! I like this better than the stone steaks in the milpitas locale.

Liquidmicro said...

I am not arguing it, I'm showing you what Bob was trying to argue. What his base was/is. Like I stated his version is just that his.

You like to shoot the messenger an awful lot, maybe I need to be like Hermes, to get away from your accusations towards me.

Bob said...

Dee: Denial is not just a river in Egypt. The truth is still contaminating our food. Meat packing companies have gone bankrupt hiring illegals. Deal with it.

Bob said...

Dee said..."The article did not say a Hispanic killed the goat. It is not in the article."

Diverting a discussion of thousands of illegal Mexicans working in meat packing companies where millions of pounds of contaminated meat were produced by yammering about one Chinese restaurant is dishonest. I really expected more honesty from you.

patriot said...

Here is what the article stated, dee.

"Several of the employees are Hispanic, Wood said, and health officials used a translator to conduct some interviews."

No, the article didn't state that it was a Hispanic who killed the goat. But one can probably surmise that they were illegals because they didn't speak English, however. You say yourself that legal Hispanics speak English.

Anyway, whether they were to blame or not the fact remains that ANY illegal who enters this country without a health check, especially if they come from rurual villages that lack sanitation it is not unreasonable nor racist to suspect transmission of deseases in this way. The same goes for any Irish, etc. illegals that come from those same kinds of conditions and hasn't been health checked.

That is one really good argument against ANY illegal immigration.

Liquidmicro said...

The goat meat was not used in a dish at the restaurant, The employees killed the goat in the kitchen, but took it elsewhere to cook. No restaurant utensils were used to cut the meat. Thus, was not intended for a Chinese dish at the restaurant, but for consumption elsewhere.

You are arguing more semantics again.

Dee said...

Bob,
You still have not provided one url to prove your LIE.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I read the article. Did you?
It did not say a Hispanic person touched the goat.

It is an Asian dish.

I am still waiting for your proof this had anything to do with illegal. Not in the article!

Dee said...

Well I see you all have allowed this whole discussion to degenerate.

Liquid, you made one solid statement. "The inadequate immigration enforcement in the United States is a money-making plan by North American governments and multinational corporations."

Do you want to continue an intelligent discussion regarding root cause? Or are you going to continue to dwell on the dark side with Barney and Fred?
This discussion is getting me sleepy....zzzz

PS: Dianne, we missed you tonight!

Liquidmicro said...

Such harsh words again, Dee. It's not a lie, but an accusation, for which I agree, Bob should supply a URL for such, however it does not nullify the fact that the possibility, although not verified in this article, that the E-Coli could have came from towels that were used to clean up the goat blood, or the mop and bucket used to clean the floor, or the lack of proper cleaning of the restaurant after the slaughter.

This particular article doesn't delve to deep into the status of the employees, other than calling them Hispanic and stating that some did not speak English.

However, as you like to state, their strategy is so obvious, this author does not perpetuate the status so as to not be able to vilify the workers.

Liquidmicro said...

Did I read the article?? Hell, I am the one who posted the link to it. Have you read my posts??

Liquidmicro said...

To get back on the original topic, please proceed. Try no more semantics and no more fringe group associations.

Liquidmicro said...

The Framing of Immigration

“Immigration reform” also evokes an issue-defining frame. Bush, in his speech, pointed out the problems that this frame defines. First, the Government has “not been in complete control of its borders.” Second, millions are able to “sneak across our border” seeking to make money. Finally, once here, illegal immigrants sometimes forge documents to get work, skirting labor laws, and deceiving employers who attempt to follow the law. They may take jobs away from legal immigrants and ordinary Americans, bear children who will be American citizens even in they are not, and use local services like schools and hospitals, which may cost a local government a great deal. This is his definition of the problem in the Immigration Reform frame.

This definition of the problem focuses entirely on the immigrants and the administrative agencies charged with overseeing immigration law. The reason is that these are the only roles present in the Immigration Problem Frame.

Bush's “comprehensive solution” entirely concerns the immigrants, citizenship laws, and the border patrol. And, from the narrow problem identified by framing it as an “immigration problem,” Bush's solution is comprehensive. He has at least addressed everything that counts as a problem in the immigration frame.

Liquidmicro said...

There are many aspects:
1)Consider the issue of Foreign Policy Reform, which focuses on two sub-issues:

* How has US foreign policy placed, or kept, in power oppressive governments which people are forced to flee?'
* What role have international trade agreements had in creating or exacerbating people's urge to flee their homelands? If capital is going to freely cross borders, should people and labor be able to do so as well, going where globalization takes the jobs?

2)Perhaps the problem might be better understood as a humanitarian crisis.

3)As a humanitarian crisis, the solution could involve The UN or the Organization of American States.

4)The current situation can also be seen as a civil rights problem.

5)Perhaps most pointedly, the “immigration problem” frame blocks an understanding of this issue as a cheap labor issue.

A solution to the “immigration problem” will not address these concerns because they are absent from the “immigration frame.”

Framing matters. The notion of this as “an immigration problem” needing “immigration reform” is not neutral.

Liquidmicro said...

We are talking about #5, this issue as a cheap labor issue.

We seem to fall into the category of:

Progressives

* Progressivism Begins at Home: The immigrants are taking the jobs of American works and we have to protect our workers.
* African-American Protectionists: Hispanic immigrants are threatening African-American jobs.
* Provide a path to citizenship: The immigrants have earned citizenship with their hard work, their devotion to American values, and their contribution to our society.
* Foreign Policy Reformers: We need to pay attention to the causes that drive others from their homelands.
* Wage supports: Institute a serious earned income tax credit for Americans doing otherwise low-paying jobs, so that more Americans will want to do them and fewer immigrants will be drawn here.
* Illegal Employers: The way to protect American workers and slow immigration of unskilled workers is to prosecute employers of unskilled workers.

We can see why this is such a complex problem and why there are so splits within both the conservative and progressive ranks.

Liquidmicro said...

Ultimately, the way the current immigration debate is going — focusing narrowly on domestic policy, executive agencies and the immigrants — we will be faced with the same problems 10 years from now. The same long lines of immigrants waiting for legal status will persist. Temporary workers will not return home after their visas have expired, and millions of undocumented people will live amongst us. Only by broadening the understanding of the situation will the problem, or, rather, the multiple problems, be addressed and adequately solved. The immigration problem does not sit in isolation from other problems, but is symptomatic of broader social and economic concerns. The framing of the “immigration problem” must not pre-empt us from debating and beginning to address these broader concerns.

Liquidmicro said...

Under Progressive, I fall into a few of the categories: Progressivism Begins at Home: The immigrants are taking the jobs of American workers and we have to protect our workers. Illegal Employers: The way to protect American workers and slow immigration of unskilled workers is to prosecute employers of unskilled workers. Foreign Policy Reformers: We need to pay attention to the causes that drive others from their homelands.

Dee said...

Liquid,
I know your side´s perspective.
The ANTIs are comprised of very strange bedfellows.

Those of you who you call yourselves Progressive, who I call the Scholars of the ANTIs, know the true root cause of the problem. You know it but you also know you cannot stop the true root cause. You cannot stop Globalization. You cannot stop the Administration or Big Business. You can only target the illegal immigrants or as you might say "Stop the Hemorraging".

You knowingly tap into the anger of the racist fringe. Then you provide them, your sheep, the tools to sway Congress and instill xenophobic fear into the masses. You use the attention loving media and power hungry politicians to promote your message.

It doesn´t matter to you that the Administration and Big Business have caught on to your strategy and are using it to provide more money to their side. They feed into the xenophobia and feed their cronies pockets by providing them no-bid contracts for crony owned detention centers and now your new SAVE Act will send even more money to them via the no-bid contractors for border safety, BP enhancements and unmanned patrol ships (ala Blackwater).

You don´t care about the impact on Human Beings. You don´t care that the detention centers are deplorabe rape centers. You don´t care that Racial Profiling occurs to the 50M Hispanic Citizens here. In fact you are glad of it. Maybe more brown people will leave.

You do not have a noble cause. Instead you are worse then the KKK Racists or the closet sheep themselves because, you, my friend, know better.

Liquidmicro said...

Talk about stereotyping and pure ignorance, Dee, you are so misguided that you couldn't find yourself if you were lost.

The problem is the way the Pres. has 'Framed' the Immigration Debate. Your ignorance is in believing in what and how it was framed, all pointing to the 'Illegals' themselves. Had the debate been framed differently, there would have been a different outcome.

You claim to want to discuss the situation to achieve an amicable outcome, yet you turn around and make insulting assumptions of myself.

We all have different beliefs and opinions of the 'Immigration Debate', I showed mine in the above posts, my concerns are taking care of Americas citizen workforce first, prosecuting employers, and changing agreements with other countries to be much more fair to the other countries that need it.

Your PRO side has the same strange bedfellows, big business being your number 1, La Raza your number 2, humanity your number 3.

You claim to want big business prosecuted, yet everything you advocate only gives them a free pass, all for what you believe to be humane, giving citizenship to people you believe need and/or want it.

Dee said...

The truth hurts, doesn´t it Liquid.

I finally figured out that Big Business and the Administration are on your side.

The more you defeat bills, the more you do not build the fence (govt or MMs), the more you have this level of fear and xenophobia across your sites spreading across to the masses, the more you can keep the migrant laborers under the thumb of big business to be exploited, and the more money cronies make as they build more detention centers and unmanned aircraft.

This way your sides have more power and all the $$ on your side.

Despicable!

Liquidmicro said...

What is my side Dee, since I am a registered Democrat?? I believe in the Blue Dogs. Those that are for the Citizen Worker.

Dee said...

The ANTIs have Dems and Reps on their side.

I am rethinking about Big Business. They are not PROs. Neither is the Administration. They prefer status quo. They are on a side all their own. They are playing all of us.

Liquidmicro said...

Why are you resorting to your old tactics again??, it does not become you, it just simply shows your ignorance of politics and laws.

Your version of what you perceive to be truth, is only your delusional perception, go find yourself before you become so lost you end up babbling to yourself.

Liquidmicro said...

Dee said...

The ANTIs have Dems and Reps on their side.

I am rethinking about Big Business. They are not PROs. Neither is the Administration. They prefer status quo. They are on a side all their own. They are playing all of us.


I see you are finding yourself again. Good, now that you understand that we all are being played, maybe we can get somewhere.

Dee said...

As I blog, I like to picture who I am debating with. I used to have one picture of you. Now I have another.

I am starting to see you as
David Morse the guy on the right.

He is a good actor. Tough. Smart. Good. But usually on the wrong side.

Movies: 16 Blocks, Green Mile
TV: House

patriot said...

There dee goes again lumping all us anti's together and calling us all racists and xenophobes. Visiting and complaining about fringe groups that really have no power over what our government does, only the majority do and the majority of anti's are not of the vile labels that she places on us.
A truly demented, delusional and hateful soul dee is.

Dee said...

Pat,
I do not lump all the ANTIs in together.

I possibly lump Ulty in with Liquid. They are both very smart, however Ulty is more civil and calm while Liquid is driven by his passion.

I think you are separate, not totally wrong or bad, but not in the same group.

Bob is all bad!

Dianne is not an ANTI or a PRO and is trying to sort things out.

Dee said...

Anon is in a different group all together.

He is starting a whole new agenda on the ANTI side.

From my perspective, I am waiting to see what he is proposing.

patriot said...

Fine, why don't you just deal with the anti's on your blog and stop going into fringe anti groups and harping about them to us? We aren't them.

I am with liquid, if you don't stop then we will post every racist reconquista remark in here continuosly and say that they represent the views of all the pro's, including you. What's fair is fair, right?

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