If HR4088 is passed, the bill calls for a significant increase in the number of Contractors used "to carry out the Integrated and Automated Surveillance Program" to supplement the Border Patrol and Border Security.Who will provide this Contracted military support? It may be Blackwater Worldwide.
Blackwater Worldwide is a self-described private military company founded in 1997 by Erik Prince and Al Clark. It has alternatively been referred to as a security contractor or a mercenary organization.
Of its own volition, Blackwater moved about 200 personnel into the area hit by Hurricane Katrina. Most of the 164 employees eventually were working under a contract with the Department of Homeland Security to protect government facilities, but the company held contracts with private clients as well. Overall, Blackwater had a "visible, and financially lucrative, presence in the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina as the use of the company contractors cost U.S. taxpayers $240,000 a day." There has been much dispute surrounding governmental contracts in post-Katrina New Orleans, especially no-bid contracts such as the one Blackwater was awarded. Blackwater's heavily-armed presence in the city was also the subject of much confusion and criticism.
Missions conducted by Blackwater Security Consulting have raised significant controversy both through casualties suffered and inflicted by their employees. Blackwater Worldwide is currently contracted by the United States government to provide security services in the Iraq War.
On September 16, 2007, Blackwater contractors, during a complex confrontation in downtown Baghdad, shot and killed Iraqis in the crowded Nisour Square. The FBI and State Department are currently investigating the incident, yet it further sheds light upon a growing private sector security force in Iraq and elsewhere, that many fear has not been held accountable to the same degree as have US military officials.
According to THE NEW YORK TIMES, there are between 160,000 and 180,000 private contractors in Iraq, including about 30,000 armed security forces. Blackwater employees represent about 1000 of these armed contractors. There were only about 9,200 total private contractors during the Persian Gulf War. Few Americans had even heard of Blackwater before March 31, 2004, when four of its contractors were ambushed and brutally killed in Falluja, and days later, a US siege of the region began. It was "what would be one of the most brutal and sustained US operations of the occupation," explains Scahill, who believes the US Military response to the killings sets a dangerous precedent.
Before the September 16, 2007 confrontation, Blackwater employees had been implicated in similar incidents involving questionable force, including in December 2006, when a drunk Blackwater contractor allegedly shot and killed a bodyguard for Iraqi Vice President Adel Abdul Mahdi. The contractor was subsequently fired by Blackwater, yet was sent back in the region with another private firm. "[State Department] officials said that Blackwater's incident rate was at least twice that recorded by employees of DynCorp International and Triple Canopy, the two other United States-based security firms that have been contracted by the State Department to provide security for diplomats and other senior civilians in Iraq," writes THE NEW YORK TIMES.
(Please see this excellent PBS Bill Moyers video showing Blackwater CEO Erik Prince making the rounds defending his company, from Congress to the talk shows, journalist and Blackwater expert Jeremy Scahill helps separate the spin from the reality.)
Still, as Blackwater's founder Eric Prince reminded Congress a few weeks ago, "Blackwater personnel are subject to regular attacks by terrorists and other nefarious forces within Iraq." As the WALL STREET JOURNAL reports, "The company has said it has done 16,000 missions for the State Department since June 2005, using its weapons just 1% of the time." And recently two Blackwater helicopters helped evacuate the Polish Ambassador to Iraq after his convoy was attacked. But questions about accountability still abound: when mistakes are made, to which rule of law should contractors answer, military or US criminal law? Officials in the State and Defense Departments are currently debating this very question. Blackwater's State Department contract expires next May, and according to the AP, officials in the Department intend to "ease out" Blackwater since many share "a mutual feeling that the Sept. 16 shooting deaths mean the company cannot continue in its current role." Yet according to the WALL STREET JOURNAL, even if Blackwater was forced to leave Iraq, they would simply be replaced by another private security firm, since the State Department does not have the personnel available to step in: "'There's just no way our system could handle trying to get hundreds of new people trained and sent to Iraq,' said a State Department official. 'That would be a multiyear process.'"
Erik D. Prince is the founder and sole owner of Blackwater Worldwide. Since 1998, Prince has personally donated over $200,000 to Republican causes. Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards has characterized Prince as one of George W. Bush's "political cronies." Prince has denied using family clout to obtain contracts for Blackwater.
Posts
139 comments:
This is no different than a paid Security Patrol roaming the parking lot of the local mall at night. Hired personnel for property protection. Look in your local phone book, page(s) of them depending on city. Yes there are times that these Security Patrols have shot and killed thieves/robbers.
This also fits into what Ultima was talking about in the past that you thought was an idea that had some merit.
My questions would be, is it cheaper to hire a private security firm or to pay BP agents?
Security firm pays all their employees and trains them, supplies all equipment needed, and one payment by our government for say a 5 year contract. What would the bids be?
Our government pays training/health care/vehicles, maintenance of vehicles, etc.. of BP. What is the cost?
Liquid, Your comparing Blackwater with a parking lot guard is like comparing the Terminator with Barney Fife.
Liquid, Have you not read of the atrocities they have committed? Read the headlines!! View the PBS video! Gosh!!
Beyond that, think of the price gouging and no bid contracts. They are RNC cronies so you probably think that is ok.
Additionally, today I heard Pat Buchanan talking about starting up Operation Wet back all over again!
Can you imagine? These Stormtroopers marching into Hispanic-Brown neighborhoods and terrorizing citizens just like during that Eisenhauer Operation?
The more I hear of Bill 1088 and what pundits like Buchanan and what Tancredo are advocating, it just scares the hexx out of me. I worry for our minority citizens and for our children. What is our country turning into?
Your title asks the question: Will they be contracted?
Your first paragraph states: If HR1088 is passed, the bill calls for a significant increase in the number of Contractors used "to carry out the Integrated and Automated Surveillance Program" to supplement the Border Patrol and Border Security.
Who will provide this Contracted military support? It may be Blackwater Worldwide.
Significance in the number of 'contractors', I take that to mean that there will be more than just one, also meaning open bids.
Therefore, your claiming of atrocities by Blackwater, may or may not have an effect in regards to these contractors that 'may' be on the border. Blackwater has also stated that they are not geared for this type of security.
As for your stormtroopers, I though you had all ready attributed that position to ICE agents and their raids.
Why does it have to be an Hispanic-brown neighborhood, what happened to your multi-culture? Aren't most neighborhoods made up of more then one color of skin or one ethnicity of peoples?
Read the documentation. Blackwater is infamous for No Bid Contracts.
Read Bill 1088, all the Gov of each state has to do is declare a state of emer then 1000 contractors are provided.
None of what is happening is typical or follows any rationale. It is all fear mongering.
Liquid, It is Bill 1088 that changed my perspective. This bill will change all the rules!
Well let's hear it for Bill 1088then! If Dee is against it, then I'm for it. Easy as that, with your subjective twisted warped view of life, it's pretty easy to make the opposite decision. Thanks for your help!
Blackwater doesn't set the bidding, the government puts out and sets the bid, Blackwater just so happens to be one of a very few companies that perform that particular type of security.
I have a County contract, other departments, not the department that I have the contract with, contract me out because of my reputation from the contract department. I have now had this contract for over 7 years, and perform work for many of the other departments without submitting bids.
Blackwater may be getting work based on the same, 'reputation'. I would also re-state that Blackwater has made it clear to the government that they are not set up for border security, its not one of their security specialties.
Read this article in the Washington times today:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071115/NATION/111150077/1001
Our border agents are in threat of their life every day by increasingly violent smugglers along the border. We need to meet this threat with whatever it takes!
Dianne,
I support an increase in the number of trained Border Patrol agents to secure the border.
Contractors like Blackwater bring all kinds of bad baggage with them. Controversy with little to no accountability for their inflicted, unlawful atrocities on innocent bystanders are continuous.
Anon, I am glad I read 1088 for you to help you understand its content.
We already know your agenda.
Don´t expect this heinous bill to pass or Operation Wet back to happen again!
Liquid,
Read the accounts in New Orleans. Blackwater stormed in with NO Contract. It only received the no bid contract after the fact.
As far as stormtroopers, even the Gov of MA chastised the ICE stormtroopers for their ICE RAIDS in New Bedford.
Even as late as yesterday, zealots like Buchanan are calling for another Operation Wet back through Hispanic neighborhoods. He praised Eisenhauer for those tactics and begged for this to happen again!
As you know, during operation wetback:
The operation began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1,075 Border Patrol agents along with state and local police agencies to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics.[2] In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. (RACIAL PROFILING!!!!)
GESTAPO METHODS: This practice incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned.
The bill has now garnered 100 co-sponsors in Congress and endorsements from small business and the IBEW. The main holdouts are big business and the pro-illegals who support the interests of big business and the illegals - strange bedfellows.
"Operation Wetback was abandoned."
Big mistake! Welcome to open borders and Mexico Norte. Welcome to increased levels of poverty. Welcome to Mexican-style corruption.
You worry about Blackwater but if Border Patrol agents doing their jobs can be imprisoned, no one has anything to worry about from Blackwater and other contractors. There are many more stories of police brutality and misconduct than there are of Blackwater and the police don't have to operate in a war zone with IEDs,etc.
If contractors are going to be involved in apprehending, detaining and deporting illegal aliens, they must be properly trained and supervised and they will be whether it is Blackwater or some other contractor. Many contractors will just be doing the other work on technical surveillance and physical barriers.
Your fears are misplaced if you want secure borders. Your continued rants suggest your item on secure borders is just a ploy. It is easy to advocate if you then turn around and deny us the tools to secure the border, i.e. measures like HR 4088. This is a good bill. If the senate kills it, everyone who votes against it should be turned out of office.
There can be no border security without ssn/name mismatch and duplicate ssn notifications. You know that as well as we do. What is in HR 4088 other than that that was not in CIR? You want mass legalization and ineffective border security.
You would secure the border without internal enforcement to buttress physical barriers and additional agents at the border itself? It can't be done, ergo, you don't really believe in border security.
You have been a strong advocate of employer sanctions in the past but that makes little sense unless there is a mechanism to identify those employers of illegals. This can only be done with the mismatch system proposed in HR 4088. Otherwise we are left only with racial profiling. Do you prefer that to an objective notification system? Come clean Dee. You are beginning to sound like Dee Coulter although not quite as incisive.
Ulty, Wrong!
My position always remains the same.
1. Secure Borders with TRAINED BORDER PATROL AGENTS
2. Severe Employer Sanctions (actually put at least one of these guys in prison!)
3. Bring the 12m here out of the shadows, in guest worker statue (includes Secure IDs)
Your side keeps going over the top. Your Gestapo Bill calls for:
1. Mass deportation of the 12M you say 20M over 4 years with strict reports to verify numbers deported. If children are included that is over 5M a year.
2. Using Contractors-Former Military with little to no accountability for their inflicted, unlawful atrocities on innocent bystanders are continuous.
3. Rei-nstate Operation Wet back which, as history has told us, includes massive racial profiling into Hispanic Citizen neighborhoods.
Look at all the trouble the illegal invasion is causing for law abiding citizens like yourself.
Another reason to be anti-illegal alien invasion.
In an earlier post are you referring to President Eisenhower?
If so an educated person like yourself should know his name is not spelled Eisenhauer.
Again dee's position is to punish the employers but not the illegal employees. Where is the fairness in that? The law says that the employers should go to prison and that the illegals should be deported. Why the double standard for the employers?
Anon,
Actually, on the internet, the informed know SDK.
Additionally, if you studied, you would realize immigration (legal and illegal) ebbs and flows and open borders from Latin countries have occurred for over 100 years. That is how this nation was built.
It is only the recent xenophobia started by the likes of Tanton, his godson Beck and Englishman Peter Brimelow who have transformed the immigration discussion to the red faced anger, hostility and race profiling and race bating that is occurring today and is so negatively impacting minority citizens.
Thank you for asking. Now you know.
Pat, You forget the horrendous punishments the illegal immigrants face in the deplorable detention centers.
Regarding Employer Sanctions, we have YeT to see ONE Employer spend ONE day in Prison!!
Yep Pat. Glad you admitted there is "Common Sense" on the ANTI side.
Cute Cartoon
"You forget the horrendous punishments the illegal immigrants face in the deplorable detention centers."
Yep, water-boarding, thumbscrews, the rack, and some of the special treatment our captured troops got at the hands of the North Vietnamese and Japanese at one time or another.
These detention centers are a walk in the park in comparison. The whole idea of detention is easily avoided by simply agreeing to immediate involuntary deportation at one's own expense. Better yet stay on your side of the border to begin with until you have some sort of legal status.
More of Dee Coulter's hyperbole!
No dee, I didn't forget any "horrible" conditions in any detainment centers because THEY WERE NEVER PROVEN!
Of course we have always had a certain amount of illegal aliens in our country but it has reached an alarming number now and that is why it has come to the attention of the American people and we are saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
How soon you forget yet again that I said the wheels of justice turn slowly but I even posted a news article for you about an employer that is going to prison and being severely fined for hiring illegal aliens.
So again why do you think that the employers should be punished according to our laws but the illegal aliens should not?
"if you studied, you would realize immigration (legal and illegal) ebbs and flows and open borders from Latin countries have occurred for over 100 years. That is how this nation was built."
That is a flagrant distortion of our nation's history. Every one knows as you have stated yourself from time to time this country was settled, developed and built primarily by Europeans not Latin Americans. If the latter were true, we would look more like Latin America now and be in the same desperate straits. Is this what you want? If and when it happens, you will have only yourself and others like you in La Hermandad de la Raza to blame. Shame on you. Why are there so many Hispanic ostriches?
"It is Bill 1088 that changed my perspective. This bill will change all the rules!"
Nonsense! The features of this bill are similar to the border security features of CIR without the amnesty. That's what bugs you.
You still haven't indicated how you would solve the conundrum of porous borders in keeping with your "secure borders" position. How can employers be sanctioned if we don't know who they are. We need ssn notifications to do that. Can't you see that this is necessary to accomplish your border security agenda with employer sanctions.
"Blackwater is infamous for No Bid Contracts."
Hardly. Blackwater receives the contracts. It does not award them. Who awarded the contracts and what was their rationale for no bid, if that is true. If you have any knowledge of contracts, you would know that sometimes they are necessary and justified and often completely legal. Blackwater got a bad name in Iraq just as some of our marines did. Blackwater would never get away with random shootings in this country and you know it. You have nothing to fear but fear itself.
"Operation Wet back to happen again!"
Actually you have convinced me that Operation Wetback was basically a sound idea. It just needed a little tweaking to make sure citizens were not victimized and that they had ample opportunity to prove their bona fides.
"They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. (RACIAL PROFILING!!!!)"
You make it sound so badddd! This is actually a very good idea. All that was needed is some willing cooperation from all citizens by carrying proof of citizenship. I've dealt with this before with the example where I was stopped because they were looking for a Caucasian involved in a domestic dispute. Also my son was stopped by the police one night when he was out for a walk. Lot's of that profiling going on, most for a very useful purpose, to keep us safe or enforce the law.
"GESTAPO METHODS: This practice incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned."
If there had been Gestapo Methods, the complainers would never have been heard of again. But you knew that didn't you. You just like the word Gestapo although it is clearly not relevant. Maybe you could find a Jewish friend to refresh your memory about the Gestapo in Germany before you continue to throw that word around. It merely weakens any other point you might wish to make.
"Secure Borders with TRAINED BORDER PATROL AGENTS"
I have always said whoever does the job should be trained and properly supervised and given a full understanding of how they should treat illegals and under what conditions (drug smugglers) they can use lethal force and what actions they should take if illegals try to escape apprehension.
So if we took a bunch ex-GI Iraqi war veterans and put as uniform on them as border patrol agents you would be happy?
"Severe Employer Sanctions (actually put at least one of these guys in prison!)"
What effective method would you suggest to identify employers of illegals so we can apply the sanctions? We need tools to do this and you apparently would deny us the use of these tools. I really don't understand your position on this. You often say you can't tell an illegal from an Hispanic citizen. Likewise you can't tell an employer of illegal without some tools like ssn mismatch notifications or regular raids and roundups. If you are in favor of employer sanctions, what methods do you propose to prove their guilt? There's something wrong with your logic on this. Try again. Tell us exactly how a middle manager of a fortune 500 company would identify employers for sanctions. You might also enlighten us on why sanctions should not also be applied to the illegals. After all they broke the law too and are complicit in whatever crime has been committed.
Instead you want to bring them out of the shadows in a mass legalization or amnesty maneuver. Why not just substitute on your list, "Amnesty for All". It would be more honest than this nonsense about bringing people out of the shadows.
"...immigration (legal and illegal) ebbs and flows and open borders from Latin countries have occurred for over 100 years."
This kind of argument doesn't hold water indefinitely. With 12-20 million illegals in this country now the world is a different place and requires different a direction.
"Mass deportation of the 12M you say 20M over 4 years with strict reports to verify numbers deported. If children are included that is over 5M a year."
You know and I know that's not going to happen without a much more severe bill than HR 4088. We just have to begin and many will leave of their own accord. The number per year is not the issue. The issue is to institute a law and an effective implementation program to save our country before it is too late.
"Secure Borders with TRAINED BORDER PATROL AGENTS
2. Severe Employer Sanctions (actually put at least one of these guys in prison!)"
That much we agree on. What we are quarreling about is methods -- "methodenstreit".
What if the number of BP agents is not enough and can never be? What then? How do we plug the dike?
How do we send employers to prison without proof? What proof do you propose? I agree with the basic premise -- send 'em to jail.
"Bring the 12m here out of the shadows, in guest worker statue (includes Secure IDs)"
This sound like amnesty to me -- you are suggesting that we allow them to stay and work, the object of their illegality. That certainly sounds like a common definition of amnesty to me. To be allowed to be considered for a secure ID they must return to compliance with the law, i.e. return from whence they came and apply legally for a work permit consistent with the numbers needed by U.S. employers.
Those entered our country illegally can never become citizens but might be allowed to return and work under the conditions cited above.
If you want them all to stay and work, stop using euphemism and call it amnesty then we will know exactly what you are talking about.
I will be waiting to hear how you will identify employers of illegals and prove their guilt in court. If you can do that effectively, it would be wonderful. But as far as I can tell you have been vehemently opposed to any system, raids or roundups that would accomplish that objective. Please enlighten us.
I have no fear of Blackwater or any other private contractor running rampant at the border. They know or should know about the two border patrol agents who are serving time for shooting a drug smuggler. What do you think would have to a private contractor who allowed his employees to spray bullets at the border? Your fears are totally misplaced. You should be thinking about you can help your country solve the problem of illegals already here and those still in transit. Your approach seems to be "let's just let the border patrol handle the latter and just bring the other out of the shadows in a mass amnesty like that of 1986. You know what that got us, don't you?
What the heck are you talking about Ulty.
The minorities of this country provided 90% of the manual labor. You all just sat in a chair and directed. Middle Management Dilberts.
African American Slaves
Asian Coolies
Latin Migrant workers
Built this nation, including building the Railroads, harvesting the Crops, rebuilding the SouthEast.
You, my dear, sat in a chair most of your life and read, observed, sat back and supervised. Perhaps in college you actually worked manually. Perhaps, maybe you, but not the majority. You know it. I think you call it privilege of the Elite.
Additionally, we ALL served in the Military at a far higher rate than you did.
My own family.. most Hispanic families and ALL Minorities, we have served and still serve, from WW2, to Korea, to Vietnam, and now in Iraq! We SERVE!!
No Ulty, 1088 is not like CIR.
1088 =
. MASS Deporations
. Racial Profiling
. Contractor Armies with the resurgence of Operation Wet Back
. More Children Prison Detention Centers
All to fill the pockets of the RNC Cronies.
Deplorable!!
"1088 =
. MASS Deporations
. Racial Profiling
. Contractor Armies with the resurgence of Operation Wet Back
. More Children Prison Detention Centers
All to fill the pockets of the RNC Cronies."
You forget:
1. The words mass deportations do not occur in the bill; it is a systematic plan over four years to achieve internal enforcement by using the most obvious methods and in the process relieving citizens from some of the threat of identity theft, erroneous social security accounting, and the costs of illegal aliens.
2. Racial profiling does not appear in the bill either unless you call ssn mismatches profiling.
3. I think the use of private contractors is primarily aimed at the logistical and technical support rather than active patroling with weapons. Nevertheless, I am in favor of what will work as anyone should be if they are really serious about border security. Some apparently aren't. If Hispanic citizens were more supportive and were interested in preserving the good life they enjoy here, they would not mind the little extra effort needed to prove one's identity.
4. No one need subject their children to detention for extended periods. They can just take them and go home as involuntary deportees at their own expense. The onus is on the parents not on the government that is just trying to enforce the law and preserve its sovereignty.
We proclaim we support the troops but when they come home we seem to want to deny them the opportunity to get a job doing what they have been trained to do. They are just our brothers, fathers, husbands, wives, sisters, and mothers who have served honorably and deserve a chance to make a good living and use the skills they have developed in the armed forces.
Let's get rid of the bad apples among them and among their employers. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Keep in mind it may be the DNC cronies who get the contracts next year or in early 2009 before HR 4008 has barely gotten off the ground. Your fears are groundless and no more serious than concerns about rogue cops.
"The minorities of this country provided 90% of the manual labor. You all just sat in a chair and directed. Middle Management Dilberts."
Without the college trained engineers and architects, they wouldn't have accomplished much and few of them were really illegals. You forget the pioneers, the early cattlemen, the farmers from Denmark, Sweden, Norway and the others from Italy, France, England, Ireland. Our country would be just another banana republic without them.
I never owned any slaves and the outstanding expansion of America after WWII was due to the GI bill and the pent up demand for consumer products that resulted in more housing, autos,etc. then the world had ever seen. Sure there were some minorities that eventually got jobs on the assembly line in Detroit. They were citizens not illegals.
The illegals were out doing stoop labor in the fields but they didn't do all of it. My family and I did some and most in the town I lived in did. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
xenophobia? started by who? could it be the illegal aliens marching
last year and this year-demanding amnesty have awoken loyal American citizens to the enormous invasion going on? dee be careful because you will probably raise suspicion about yourself with your anti-American rhetoric-wouldn't want another "Operation Wetback" looking your way but with your views it is possible.
Anon,
You and many ANTIs are very sensitive about the words racist and xenophobic, aren´t you. The truth hurts doesn´t it. You were carefully taught!
Loyal Americans like me are standing up and being counted and telling the truth. We are not afraid of History and the Truth, as you are.
The truth is Racism is alive and well and living in our country.
The truth is this nation was built and grounded on the fact that millions of minorities, African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, worked manual, migrant labor to Nation Build. We are proud of our work and proud of the country we helped create.
Are you kidding me Ulty? Mass Deportation NOT in the Bill? What are you talking about?
. 4 years is NOT a long time to deport 12M people, and if they take their citizen children with them, you are talking 20M people. In order to meet the reports and the 4 year commitment, that is almost 14,000 people deported a day. This is close to 100,000 a week, over 400,000 a month and 5 Million a year. You are talking about deporting a group of people whose totals outnumber the total population of the State of –New York!!
This is MASS DEPORTATION!!
I believe in our troops and supporting them when they are allowed to return.
My nephews are there now! Today!!
Numerous minorities are there, now, today! Fighting for our country.
We welcome them home. We have labor shortages. Most are taking advantage of the Educational opportunities provided to them and coming out to accept careers. I double the migrant laborers are taking any of their jobs, rather doing many laborious jobs many of our citizens will not take. These are the facts.
As a Loyal American, I recognize we need comprehensive immigration reform. Overall, my position has always remained the same:
1. Secure the Border with TRAINED Border Patrol Agents
2. Strong Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the 12M here out of the shadows, Guest Worker status and provide them Secure IDs if they meet the requirements.
People like you, Dee are standing up expressing your opinion, not telling the truth. It maybe a twisted form of truth in your mind. This is greatly different than your opinions.
So if the truth hurts, does that mean I can start to dumb things down for you again?, since you like to use the words xenophobe.
We all have our opinions of how things should be, until we all learn to look at the outcome of proposed legislation, its hard to accept the name calling and down talking statements.
You like to claim removing the bad from the good, you have yet to propose a plan that would do just that.
You claim to want border security, but only by the BP, you claim RNC cronieism, yet there are more Dems' that are millionaires/elitists/CEO's/Corp. Owners then the Repubs.
Come up with a viable plan to separate the bad from the good and submit that, along with a complete CIR.
Liquid,
Cronyism:
Private Prison Owners: RNC Contributors & Cronies
Blackwater: RNC Contributors & Cronies
Case Closed!
BTW Liquid,
Did you ask your wife´s advice and did you listen to her? If so, how did she respond?
dee, what has this statement to do with our illegal immigration problem and policies today? Or our right to enforce our immigration laws?
"The truth is this nation was built and grounded on the fact that millions of minorities, African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, worked manual, migrant labor to Nation Build. We are proud of our work and proud of the country we helped create."
I was very offended by your insinuation that all White people did was sit on their duffs and played no role in the hands on building of this country. Ultima gave you examples of the cattlemen, etc. That was a very rotten and racist thing for you to say about White people. You keep stooping to a new low in here everyday with your hatefullness.
When are you going to answer mine and Ultima's question about how do we sanction the employers without having a system in place fo find out who is illegally on their payrolls such as in the bill HR 1408 (hope that is the right bill number)? How do you propose to do that without the evidence?
And finally my question once again that you keep ignoring. Why do you think that the employers should be punished but not the illegal employees?
I won't hold my breath for any answers just your usual rhetoric of "my standing has always been"....yada, yada, yada.
Show some honesty for a change and answer the questions.
Talking about cronyism and dirty politics, here is a map of private prisons in Texas, most owned by Bush and RNC contributors!
Pat, You are not reading my responses or letting them sink in.
My response on Minorities and Nation Building was in direct response to Ulty´s ludicrous statement "this country was settled, developed and built primarily by Europeans not Latin Americans."
How do we sanction employers, I have answered this question many times.
Once we have comprehensive immigration reform, as I have layed out, we will have
1. secure borders with trained border patrol
2. employers sanction
3. 12M come out of shadows and Guest Worker status with secure IDs for those qualified.
We utilize the Secure ID program. Any employer violating will be put in prison (severe penalties).
dee, you tried to claim that the building of this country was done by 90% minorities. That is BS! And you did make the remark about European Americans sitting on their duffs and not doing any of the manual labor. That is a lie and it is a racist remark about our White ancestors.
When are you going to answer the other questions myself and Ultima posed about how do we sanction the employers without the proof through the bill being proposed and why do you think that only the employers should be punished but not the illegal employees? Our laws say the employers should go to prison and the illegal deported.
I'll be waiting!
I said 90% of the manual labor, including the manual labor for building the railroads, harvesting the crops even up to reconstruction of the hurrican ravaged southeast.
PS: Pat please re read my response regarding Employer Sanctions and Secure IDs. I´ve answered your question many many times.
dee, no you didn't answer those questions. All you have said is you want employer sanctions but you never explained how we are going to do that without making them check their databases for mismatched SS numbers. That is what this bill is all about and you said you are objecting to it, calling it mass deportatons. Certainly you aren't suggesting that the employers be arrested after finding mismatched numbers but the illegal employees should just continue to work there without any recourse.
You never answered the question as to why you think that the employers should be punished but not the illegal employees. You are just dodging these questions.
So you are admitting that you are claiming that 90% of the manual labor that built this country were minorities. That is BS! What about your remark about how all White Europeans did were to sit on their duffs? Another remark that I called you on and you are sidestepping now. How can you say such a terrible thing?
Pat,
As I said, for the 12M who qualify, Guest Worker status and Secure IDs.
Here is one example:
LaserPass addresses all the essential security and application requirements for a secure Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative PASS Card. The company's proven made-in-the-U.S.A. solution for U.S. border security is also ideally suited for the anticipated Temporary Guest-Worker Card.
Pat, You are looking at the world upside down. The workers ARE being punished, every day. During the sweeps, the workers where swept away to the deplorable, horrendous detention centers and they are not even charge. Imprisoned awaiting the court delays, then after court, must continue to wait until sufficient numbers in their country complete court dates so they are deported en masse. (I have repeated this SEVERAL TIMES Pat)
The employers are NOT being held accountable at all!!!! Employer Sanctions - as I said many times, NOT ONE employer (during last year to this year´s sweeps) has spent even ONE day in prison.
SEE HOW YOU ARE LOOKING AT THIS UPSIDE DOWN!!!
Pat, You are NOT reading or understanding what I am posting.
Have you studied the history of our country and the building of our nation?
African Americans: Do you understand the history of Slavery and their laborious contributions to the building of our nation?
Asian Americans: Do you understand the history of the Railroads and the works the so called Coolies completed in the building of our nation?
Hispanic Americans and Latin Migrant Labor: Do you understand the history of AgJobs, Railroads, Constructions, etc. work performed by Hispanic workers in our nation? Are you familiar with the Bracero Program?
The vast majority of the manual labor for these jobs in the building of our nation was and is completed by minorities.
Everyone who has studied American History knows this.
Today´s News on Blackwater: Cronyism at its Worst --
Uproar Over Blackwater Escalates
Democrats Seek Removal
of State's Inspector General
As Firm Remains Defiant
By AUGUST COLE and ANDY PASZTOR
November 16, 2007; Page A16
As Blackwater Worldwide faced criticism for recruiting an advisory board member who is the brother of the State Department's top watchdog, the private security company responded with its trademark defiance, saying the arrangement doesn't pose any ethical concerns.
The latest Blackwater crisis continued to escalate yesterday, with Democrats pushing for State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard's removal, while Blackwater and the brother maintained they had done nothing wrong. Mr. Krongard recused himself from Blackwater-related investigations Wednesday, after saying he had learned during a break in a congressional hearing that his brother, Alvin Krongard, had accepted a position on Blackwater's advisory board. Blackwater is under scrutiny for a Sept. 16 shooting incident in Baghdad that left 17 Iraqis dead.
More
Blackwater said its founder, Erik Prince, made the decision to reach out to Alvin Krongard (brother of Govt Official overseeing Blackwater), who first met Mr. Prince in 2001. "I think the mission that Blackwater does ain't going to get done better and probably ain't going to get done at all the way things stack up," said Alvin Krongard. "And to the extent that they can protect American lives, you bet I'll help them."
Alvin Krongard had a career as an investment banker that culminated in his position as chairman and chief executive of Alex Brown, which was sold in September 1997. He joined the Central Intelligence Agency in February 1998 .
Why are these allegations (below) against Blackwater significant and pertinent IF they become ICE Contractors in Border Patrols, ICE Raids, and renewal of Operation Wetback? Because these charges say they are violent, murderous, kill innocent citizens, abusive, do not follow protocal and are not held accountable by this administration.
News Article
A report in The Times this week says that the F.B.I. is reaching the same horrifying conclusion as the Iraqi authorities: that the deadly September shooting spree by Blackwater security guards in Baghdad was unjustified and violated the American government’s rules for the use of deadly force. The question is, what is the Bush administration going to do about it?
more:
David Johnston and John M. Broder reported on Wednesday that federal investigators found no evidence to support claims by Blackwater officials that Iraqi civilians had fired on the guards. Investigators concluded that 3 of the 17 deaths may have been justified because the guards might have perceived an imminent threat. The other 14 amounted to sheer recklessness, they said.
This is hardly surprising, considering the “spray and pray” tactics favored by many of these contractors. But the incident has fed Iraqis’ fury at the American occupation and made it even harder for American officials to insist that Iraq’s leaders respect their own citizens and the rule of law.
Your so-called punishments for illegal aliens are only occuring on a small scale right now and the employers are going to trial, some convicted already. I am talking about once we implement a FULL SCALE PLAN such as this bill in congress would do. Why then should the employers be punished but the illegals get a guest workers card? That is no punishment for the illegal employees, only the employers. ANSWER THE QUESTION, DEE!
You are still wrong about how much the White Europeans contributed in manual labor to build this country. But no surprise, as you have a grudge against White people anyway.
By the way, just to pour salt in your wounds, Hilary said NO to drivers licences for illegal aliens in the debates last night. Is she still one of your many "heroes" now?
"During the sweeps, the workers where swept away to the deplorable, horrendous detention centers and they are not even charge. Imprisoned awaiting the court delays, then after court, must continue to wait until sufficient numbers in their country complete court dates so they are deported en masse."
Stop the hype already! Deplorable, horrendous --stercore tauri.
I have advanced several ideas to solve this problem. Let's get more immigration judges assigned to the detention facilities and require a decision within 24 hours of the detainee's arrival. Let's add this to the SAVE bill. Place a deadline of one week on appeals. Allow all detainees to accept immediate involuntary deportation at their own expense. Transport deportees daily.
Don't expect lawbreakers to be detained in the lap of luxury. Work on ways to expedite their involuntary removal from our country so their stays in detention facilities are minimized and fewer facilities are needed.
"You and many ANTIs are very sensitive about the words racist and xenophobic, aren´t you. The truth hurts doesn´t it. "
No more sensitive than you are about the racism of La Raza, MEChA, LULAC and the like. But in any event racist and xenophobic are not the right terms. Since when is defense of one's country and way of life xenophobic or racist? Our reaction is the same as your reaction would be if your home, family, way of life,etc. were threatened by foreign invaders. This not rocket science.
"The minorities of this country provided 90% of the manual labor. You all just sat in a chair and directed. "
Prove it. I think there are many farmers and ranchers from the 1800s and 1900s that would disagree with you. Most did their own work; others hired whoever they could get to help including those from the local population and school kids. There are or were areas of the country during certain periods of time where minority citizens did much of the manual labor but to extend this to the entire country is ridiculous. Factory work and the work done by farmers, ranchers, cowboys, etc was all manual labor.
Today more of the manual labor is done by illegals because they are willing to do it for substandard wages, dumping their labor at below market prices. Are you suggesting this is a good thing for America?
What is the point of this argument? Americans of all kinds have done manual labor throughout our history and most of them weren't Braceros or slaves. You know that. Were you a Bracero or slave?
"In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens." Are you suggesting that parents should be allowed to abandon their minor children if they are deported? That's child abuse or child neglect. Would you have wanted the children to be put in an orphanage? What was your solution if the order was to deport illegal aliens as quickly as possible? Seems like the agents did exactly the right thing. If your company had been charged with this responsibility, would it have done anything different? Less effectively?
We see in your description of Operation Wetback your antithesis to any repatriation of illegals. Say it! You want amnesty for anyone who can wade across the Rio Grande.
"You know it. I think you call it privilege of the Elite."
It's mostly called education, putting oneself through college washing dishes or whatever. Let's see I guess your job with a Fortune 500 company was the privilege of the elite. Pot kettle black.
"My own family.. most Hispanic families and ALL Minorities, we have served and still serve, from WW2, to Korea, to Vietnam, and now in Iraq! We SERVE!!"
No one said otherwise. Three in my immediate family served in Korea or WW II, several first cousins did also. There is no argument here.
"Regarding Employer Sanctions, we have YeT to see ONE Employer spend ONE day in Prison!!"
This is a cause of considerable discomfort and chagrin to me. There is a difference between an employer without any potential for flight to avoid prosecution and an illegal where that might be foremost in his mind. Nevertheless, justice for employers and illegals should be swift and sure.
"The vast majority of the manual labor for these jobs in the building of our nation was and is completed by minorities."
They were eager to have those jobs, jobs that were created by the men of vision and learning. It would have been interesting to see what the transcontinental railroad would have looked like without some engineers and managers (managers like yourself). Remember the Irish also did most of the manual labor for the Union Pacific half of the railroad job. Who sere the soldiers who protected the construction crews? Who provided the food for the laborers? You are making a useless, one-sided argument. Illegals provided manual labor and still do but that hardly means they built America. They were merely a ripple on the pond.
"4 years is NOT a long time to deport 12M people, and if they take their citizen children with them, you are talking 20M people. In order to meet the reports and the 4 year commitment"
Give me the exact quote from the bill. I don't believe it says anything except ssn mismatch notifications will be extended to all employees. Those who fail this test will then be discharged or terminated not deported. Do you see somewhere in the bill where is says they will be terminated, held for ICE and expeditiously deported?
"Middle Management Dilberts." That sounds like you, Dee. Didn't you claim to be a middle manager?
"Cronyism at its Worst --"
Yes, and it has always applied equally to all political parties. Harry Reid has been involved in some shady deals in Las Vegas -- so what else is new?
It seems to me Clinton I pardoned many of his cronies and crooks. Pot kettle black.
"for the 12M who qualify, Guest Worker status and Secure IDs. "
Unfortunately the only qualification you require is "being here".
"this country was settled, developed and built primarily by Europeans not Latin Americans."
You must be reading a different history than I am. Almost every name I read is European. Look at the list of prominent pioneers and you will see the same thing, even in Texas and California. Obviously, in the Southwest there was a heavy Spanish influence with names like Baca, Conejos, Serra, Vallejo, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Sacramento, Santa Rosa, Las Vegas, etc. But what entrepreneurs actually built these cities into what they are today?
This is a useless argument and has no bearing on the problem of illegal aliens. They are after all is said and done, illegal, regardless of their undeniable contributions of manual labor.
"most owned by Bush and RNC contributors!"
The map is irrelevant except that it shows detention centers near the border where they should be. I can't see anything on the map that shows ownership or cronyism.
Unless I missed it in all this posting, we are still waiting for your plan on how to catch employers of illegals and prove the case. What tools would you use? You are notably silent on this question. Please get back to us soon. Note that we are talking about the sanctions per se rather we are wondering how you identify the employers to be sanctioned without raids, roundups, ssn notifications. Do you have a magical solution other than mass legalization so no sanctions are necessary?
Waiting!!!
"We utilize the Secure ID program. Any employer violating will be put in prison (severe penalties)."
How will you detect these miscreant employers? What methods will you use? Why can't those methods be used right now? Why can't you support HR1088 methods of detection?
I know -- you want blanket amnesty. That is certainly one solution to all lawbreaking; just absolve them instantaneously of any wrongdoing.
Pat, Pat, Pat,
I will repeat again,
IF the 12M are moved to Guest Worker status and receive a Secure ID, both the Employer and the Worker are following the law. No one will be punished.
However, if the worker does not obtain legal status, and the employer hires them illegally, both will be punished.
"Numerous minorities are there, now, today! Fighting for our country."
Why single them out? There are many Americans of all ethnicities fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Does this give anyone the right to favor foreign interests over the national interest? Does this give anyone the right to oppose the rule of law? Does this give anyone the right to favor illegal aliens?
Ulyt, re your comment: "stercore tauri"
Latin swearing is not civil either.
Ulty, If those applicable obtain Guest Worker status, then there will be no need for additional judges or Detention Centers.
"The truth is Racism is alive and well and living in our country."
Probably true and you keep it alive and well by your ethnocentric rants and by La Hermandad de la Raza. What a wonderful country we would have if we all recognized illegal aliens as illegal and deportable. What a wonderful country we would have if we stopped all of this ethnic nonsense and started thinking like Americans and thinking about what is in the national interest especially the long term interest.
I suppose that is too much to expect from one who carries so much baggage and such a heavy chip on her shoulder.
Tanton and his godson Beck both fear “majority-minority” will occur in 2038 and they are doing their best to stop this. This is the reason for all of the ANTI xenophobia. Beck is leading the charge now and that was the basis of sending out his “gumballs!”
If this isn´t xenophobia and racism, I don´t know what is!
Ulty, You know my father was in the Bracero program.
I agree with what you say below. My point in saying this to Pat and others is they continue to act as if minorities did not contribute to the building of this nation. With the exception of the African American Slaves, the workers did want to come in and do the work. We have to recognize the contributions of ALL the workers including the minorities and not minimize their contributions to the building of this great nation.
Ulty said: They were eager to have those jobs, jobs that were created by the men of vision and learning. It would have been interesting to see what the transcontinental railroad would have looked like without some engineers and managers (managers like yourself).
Good Ole Boy Network tidbits:
Perry contributed $46,000 to George W. Bush’s 1994 and 1998 campaigns for Texas Governor. He was the largest individual contributor to the Texas Republican Party during the 2002 election cycle (calendar 2001 & 2002) giving $905,000.[6]
Perry gave $165,000 in the 2002 election cycle to Tom DeLay’s Texans for a Republican Majority political action committee (TRMPAC) giving $165,000 in the 2002 election cycle. In October 2002 they contributed $95,000 to Delay’s Americans for a Republican Majority political action committtee (ARMPAC)[7] Perry and his wife also contributed $10,000 to DeLay’s legal defense fund.[8].
more
Gov. Perry orders creation of Criminal Justice Analysis Center to provide assessment of criminal justice efforts
Gov. Rick Perry on Monday, January 29, issued an executive order establishing the Texas Criminal Justice Statistical Analysis Center (SAC) to provide objective analysis and assessment of state criminal justice programs and initiatives.
“By providing objective reports on statewide criminal justice trends, the Statistical Analysis Center will help policymakers develop effective and efficient criminal justice programs that will keep Texans safe,” Perry said. “This center will help us manage our prison population better and attract more federal funds for crime prevention and criminal justice initiatives.”
Under the governor’s order, the SAC will collect, analyze and report statewide criminal justice statistics; evaluate the effectiveness of state-funded initiatives; and disseminate analysis results to practitioners, policy-makers, researchers, and the public in order to enhance the quality of criminal justice and crime prevention at all levels of government.
Perry’s directive also designates the SAC as the state’s liaison to the U.S. Department of Justice on criminal justice data reporting and research. This designation will make Texas eligible for additional federal criminal justice funding.
Willacy Detention Center is a private prison-detention center owned and operated by one of Bush´s, Delays, RNCs biggest contributors, a major Crony. Here is one reason you may see support from the Bush Admin for this new bill. Also Blackwater is a major RNC contributor. That is one reason why they would be strongly considered as Contractors. There is so much money that will go into crony pockets if 1088 is passed. Always follow the money..
----------
RAYMONDVILLE — Some community leaders fear Willacy County’s credit could ruin if commissioners go ahead with plans for a $45 million expansion of a detention center to hold illegal immigrants.
“It’s just looking like a risky investment,” resident George Reoh said. “I haven’t seen anything that makes any sense. Someone’s going to be taken for a ride. You’d think you’ve got some real suckers on the line.”
Commissioners plan to construct a building to expand the county’s $60 million “tent city” complex, which holds 10 domed tents that can hold up to 2,000 illegal immigrants, County Judge Eliseo Barnhart said.
“That always concerns me — the new debt complied with the obligations of the first (detention center) being met,” said Billie Pickard, a former longtime Raymondville school board president.
Commissioner Aurelio Guerra warned that the federal government hasn’t held enough illegal immigrants in the detention center to help the county repay the bonds within a two-year period. But the proposed expansion project would help the county repay the $60 in municipal revenue bonds, Barnhart said.
More abuse in prisons:
Prisons closed, sued in other states
Associated Press
07/30/2007
DALLAS - Private contractors used by the Texas Youth Commission to house juvenile inmates have lost numerous contracts and had facilities closed in other states following allegations of neglect and physical and sexual abuse, according to a newspaper investigation.The findings indicate additional problems for the troubled TYC, which is already undergoing sweeping reforms in the wake of a sex scandal in its state-run youth prisons and a possible coverup by agency officials.
According to a report published Sunday in The Dallas Morning News, companies running private juvenile facilities in Texas have faced lawsuits in other states and had facilities closed after investigators uncovered mismanagement and abuse of juvenile inmates.
"They are a much under-examined problem in the TYC system," said Scott Medlock, an attorney for the Texas Civil Rights Project.
more
Associated Marine Institutes, which runs facilities in San Antonio and Los Fresnos, had an Arkansas contract canceled. Former employees had testified that juveniles in the nonprofit's youth camps were sometimes shackled, left naked on the ground in sleeping bags and given a plastic bucket to use as a toilet.
Oh, I get it,dee. You are for employer sanctions only where the illegals get detained and/or deported. Well at least that is fair anyway.
So now you can drop your claim that you want employer sanctions because what you really want to do is forgive both the employers and the illegals. No punishment for either.
You tell me why it is xenophobic or racist for any nation to want to retain it's natural identity, culture, langauge and heritage. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that for any country. One certainly wouldn't want to lose that by uncontrolled illegal immigration above all else. Are you kidding me?
Why do you twist my words and lie, dee? I didn't say that minorities didn't contribute to the building of this country but your claim that it was 90% of minorities that did with only 10% of Whites that did, is not only wrong but blatanly racist on your part. Don't you ever twist my words again!
Pat,
ReRead my statements. This time I hope you will interpret them correctly.
What are you views on the misdeeds of Blackwater?
And Cronyism? And Abuse by Contractors.
There is no such bill as HR1088. It is HR 4088.
"Commissioners plan to construct a building to expand the county’s $60 million “tent city” complex, which holds 10 domed tents that can hold up to 2,000 illegal immigrants, County Judge Eliseo Barnhart said."
This is good news. Why should illegals fair better than our GIs in harms way?
We do need to curb any abuses of detainees and it should be made clear to contractors that such abuses will not be tolerated and will result in contract cancellation and fines if not appropriate jail time. Time to get tough with these folks. Let's put Dee in charge with the responsibility to expeditiously process the detainees giving them the immediate option of involuntary deportation after a photo, fingerprints and a DNA sample. Daily transport should be arranged at the deportees expense. Let's see how well Dee can run an enterprise this large and make a profit. After all she has all of this middle management experience.
"Blackwater is a major RNC contributor."
Typically, donors play both sides of the fence because they want favors from whomever is in power.
Good grief. I don't even time to read all these posts but there is one thing I would like to say. This country includes states other than in the east and west. The midwest was settled primarily by Europeans who worked the fields...farmers. I never met one minority in my life until I was 18 and I come from Wisconsin. Now there are minorities there, mostly arriving after Viet Nam. And, I can assure you, my entire family back well over 100 years were laborers. Even I grew up baling hay and picking strawberries (by hand) all summer long while in high school. So, let's get one thing straight. Europeans were and are not lazy. To this day nobody cleans my house or takes care of my property (26 acres) but me and my daughter/family.
Just had to get that point across.
"Ulty, You know my father was in the Bracero program."
How could he be in the Bracero program if your family has been here for 250 years. Wasn't the Bracero program for native Mexicans?
"We utilize the Secure ID program. Any employer violating will be put in prison (severe penalties)."
I keep asking what procedures you would use to identify miscreant employers and prove their guilt. Making every crime legal so there are no miscreants is not the answer.
Waiting for your middle management solution. Just take things as they are and tell me how you would identify them -- what data, what procedures, etc.
Gosh Dianne,
My family and many migrants were all over Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Ind, Ill and midwest-heartland, harvesting the fruit and vegetables. I picked cherries in the late 50s and 60s. All the Sugar Beet, Cherries, Strawberries, Onions, Cucumbers, Apples etc etc were picked by migrants. Most went back home to TX or MX in the fall.
And in the 90´s, I was right there in the Lee´s Summit-Blue Springs suburb of KC. Also there are HUGE sections of KC with Hispanics. Great Restaurants. Many worked on the Railroads, in Meatpacking,etc.
Sorry you missed me. We could have had tea or something.
No Ulty. The Bracero was much broader. My father was a troquero in TX. There were various staffers in TX who recruited bi lingual truckers. Some migrant workers were brought in from MX, others from TX.
During the Depression my Dad was hired as a Troquero - Migrant. (obviously you have not read my book)
Many of the migrants are and were American Citizens (Mexican Americans).Still are.
Ulty, I would do it and much better than those contractors. I will never get the opportunity because I am not an RNC Crony.
Ulty Said:
We do need to curb any abuses of detainees and it should be made clear to contractors that such abuses will not be tolerated and will result in contract cancellation and fines if not appropriate jail time. Time to get tough with these folks. Let's put Dee in charge with the responsibility to expeditiously process the detainees giving them the immediate option of involuntary deportation after a photo, fingerprints and a DNA sample.
Ulty, Are you not reading my responses.
I have said:
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions
3. 12M Guest Workers (as app) - Secure IDs
Accountability and charging employers:
. Secure ID program. Once the app 12M have secure IDs, 100% Compliance to Secure IDs. Auditing. Those not in compliance are charged and go to Prison. Period! Also, the employees who have not applied for legal status as Guest Workers go to Detention Centers. These centers and prisons have standards (not crony standards) and not the sex abuse, feces, sleeping in chains, on floors does not happen.
Dianne, 26 acres.. Wow!!
You go girl!!
I thought about living on a farm whenever I retire, but decided its not for me.
Last week, I visited my niece who lives on 1/2 an acre outside of a very tiny, tiny rural Texas town. They have tarantulas, snakes and other critters. No. No. Not for me.
Right then, right there, I decided to stick to my yuppie suburbs with lots of grass, parks, pools and restaurants within a few miles. No critters for me!!
What is important to remember is:
. HR4088 calls for CONTRACTORS. We CANNOT allow Blackwater or ANY Crony Contributor to be the Contractor.
. Blackwater is under investigation for ABUSE!!! Abuse of power! Violence on Innocent bystanders! Yet NO ACCOUNTABILITY for their ABUSE!!
. The RNC has a History of utilizing RNC Contributors (Cronies) for Contracting Work both domestically and internationally. RNC Cronies have received No Bid contracts. Blackwater was a No Bid Contract. Willacy Detention Center was a No Bid Contract. Both have abused their authority AND charged us taxpayers OUTRAGEOUS, BLOATED charges.
WE CANNOT ALLOW THESE ABUSIVE CONTRACTORS TO RECEIVE ANY CONTRACTS or NO BID CONTRACTS for any Work much less work in this Immigration and Security debate!!
Wait a minute, dee. You have listed employer sanctions again, why? If you want legalization of all of these illegals and that means forgiveness of their crime, why do you still want to sanction employers? Do you consider this fair? If you are going to forgive the lllegals, why aren't you forgiving the employers too?
Pat, I keep repeating this for you.
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the app 12M into Guest Worker status with secure IDs.
ONCE these steps are in place, (within 3 months of bill passage) then any employer who hires people who do not have secure IDs and any workers who do NOT have secure IDs will be imprisoned. Period. Stiff penalities. Immediately!!
No, there should be no employer sanctions during the time that illegals are legalized then. You are listing them both together. Don't list them together then because you aren't making yourself clear.
What you should be saying is:
1. Secure borders
2. Legalize illegals already here.
If after this occurs and some illegals still manage to sneak in and an employer hires them, only then should they be sanction and the "new" illegals deported. See how much clearer that is? Richardson made the same mistake you did during the debates.
GOV. RICHARDSON: -- secure the borders, a stronger relationship with Mexico. Those that knowingly hire illegal workers should be punished, and a path to legalization. That is the solution.
Of course, I think we need to secure the border first and pass HR 4088. Those employers who already have illegals on their payroll should be jailed and fined and the illegals deported who don't self deport. Then we start over by taking in immigrants who have waited to do it the right way based on our needs for foreign workers.
I meant to say under number 2. Legalize the illegals and do not sanction the employers. Because it isn't fair to sanction the employers but yet reward the illegal workers with a guest worker's card.
Good for Blackwater. We need someone who will do the job -- whatever it takes.
"Bring the app 12M into Guest Worker status with secure IDs."
That is, declare an general amnesty and legalize all those who have broken the law.
You still haven't said how you would catch the employers of illegals. Would you go door to door checking IDs or would you rely on SSN/name mismatches and duplicate ssns?
Ulty,
Via the Secure ID Program. All Guest Workers (app 12M) will have Secure IDs.
Employers will be required to ensure all of their employees have SS or Secure IDs. The program requires auditing. Those employers not complaint will be prosecuted. Those workers will be prosecuted and or deported.
Pat, I agree with your statement.
Pat´s statement:
What you should be saying is:
1. Secure borders
2. Legalize illegals (who meet criteria) already here.
If after this occurs and some illegals still manage to sneak in and an employer hires them, only then should the employers be sanctioned and the "new" illegals deported.
I also like Gov Richardsons suggestion he made yesterday. Establish a partnership with Mexico and ensure they have a work program for their own citizens so they will not feel so compelled to leave.
Once again you misunderstand me, dee. I was stating what you want. If you read my whole post I made it clear that is not what I want.
"Establish a partnership with Mexico and ensure they have a work program for their own citizens so they will not feel so compelled to leave."
Why is this our responsibility? There are many (the Nationalists) in Mexico who like things just as they are and oppose any Mexican enforcement of the border.
"Via the Secure ID Program. All Guest Workers (app 12M) will have Secure IDs.
Employers will be required to ensure all of their employees have SS or Secure IDs. The program requires auditing. Those employers not complaint will be prosecuted. Those workers will be prosecuted and or deported."
Under the current law employers are prohibited from hiring illegal aliens and, had a judge not interfered, would already be receiving mismatch notifications. You can't depend on employers to do the right thing even if there is a secure ID system. One must still have a way to identify miscreant employers. Raids, roundups and mismatch notifications are the only things that will work.
We all understand your agenda:
1. Secure the borders
a. More BP agents (won't work by itself)
b. Fence (not being built)
2. Mass amnesty for all illegals giving them work permits and IDs, the very object of their illegality.
a. Create incentive for more illegal aliens to violate the border.
b. No sanctions for illegals.
3. Employer sanctions but no means of identifying miscreants
Here's my plan:
1. Secure the border with more BP, National Guard, private contractors,trained and supervised MM auxiliaries.
a. Build border infrastructure without delay: double layer fence, electronic and aerial surveillance.
b. Use lethal force on drug smugglers.
c. photograph, fingerprint and DNA all those who are apprehended then involuntarily deport them.
d. jail 'em if they return.
2. Internal enforcement
a. SSN/name mismatch notices
b. SSN duplicate notices
c. Employer sanctions for those who do not immediately terminate illegals identified through SSN checks.
d. Regular raids and roundups at high profile employers.
e. All illegals identified through operation mismatch, held for ICE and expeditious deportation hearings.
3. Re-advertise all jobs currently held by terminated illegals.
a. Show irrefutable proof of failure to attract replacement workers if offered a living wage.
b. Wage rate to be determined by historical trends among legal employees by local unions and the Dept of Labor.
c. Accept applications from foreign workers for jobs that cannot otherwise be filled.
d. Applications must be filed in the foreign workers' homelands.
e. Workers must pass background check and health exam.
f. Those who entered this country illegally at any time can never become citizens.
4. Birthright citizenship granted to children when they reach their majority if at least one of their parents is a citizen.
5. Official English, repeal of EO 13166.
6. More judges assigned to detention centers to expedite deportations and eliminate any abuse of detainees.
7. Criteria for immigration appeals.
a. In US over 20 years.
b. Testimonials
c. No foreign flags or street demonstrations.
d. Children over the age of 7 in U.S. schools, dropouts will be deported.
e. Clean criminal record.
f. Job offer
g. Property maintenance, etc.
h. Renounce allegiance to any foreign government and relinquishment of dual citizenship.
i. Payment of back taxes.
j. Acceptance of no pathway to citizenship.
8. Immediate release of detainees for involuntary deportation at their own expense after photo etc. if they drop any appeal.
9. Immigration decisions made within 24 hours of apprehension. Time period for any appeal limited to one week.
10. No mass amnesty or legalization of illegals already here.
"Via the Secure ID Program. All Guest Workers (app 12M) will have Secure IDs. "
This is the problem, Dee. You want to grant blanket amnesty to all of the illegal aliens, award them with secure IDs and allow them to stay here and work as guests. This is what they want. It is not what the public wants. Try again.
Ultima, you and I both know that even if those illegals already here were granted amnesty and we reformed our immigration laws (whatever that means) that any more illegals who would enter our country dee would still be fighting for and demonizing law abiding Americans all over again. The only thing that would satisfy her is unlimited migraton from Latino countries without any objection to it by either our government or the American people.
Ulty,
Your proposal has some good points.
We both agree on Secure Borders and Employer Sanctions. We agree on Secure IDs.
However, your proposal still calls for Mass Deportation of the 12M via sweeps and Operation Wetback Redux! This is a stumbling block.
Then you add on English Only and changing Birthright Citizenship. These are also stumbling blocks.
And, as this thread states:
. HR4088 calls for CONTRACTORS. We CANNOT allow Blackwater or ANY Crony Contributor to be the Contractor.
. Blackwater is under investigation for ABUSE!!! Abuse of power! Violence on Innocent bystanders! Yet NO ACCOUNTABILITY for their ABUSE!!
. The RNC has a History of utilizing RNC Contributors (Cronies) for Contracting Work both domestically and internationally. RNC Cronies have received No Bid contracts. Blackwater was a No Bid Contract. Willacy Detention Center was a No Bid Contract. Both have abused their authority AND charged us taxpayers OUTRAGEOUS, BLOATED charges.
WE CANNOT ALLOW THESE ABUSIVE CONTRACTORS TO RECEIVE ANY CONTRACTS or NO BID CONTRACTS for any Work much less work in this Immigration and Security debate!!
Gestapo interrogation methods included: repeated near drownings of a prisoner in a bathtub filled with ice-cold water; electric shocks by attaching wires to hands, feet, ears and genitalia; crushing a man's testicles in a special vice; securing a prisoner's wrists behind his back then hanging him by the arms causing shoulder dislocation; beatings with rubber nightsticks and cow-hide whips; and burning flesh with matches or a soldering iron.
The Gestapo ruthlessly eliminated opposition by German citizens to the Nazis and was equally brutal in suppressing anti-NAZI activities and sentiment within the occupied territories. It was responsible for the roundup of Jews throughout Europe for deportation to extermination camps.
"Both have abused their authority AND charged us taxpayers OUTRAGEOUS, BLOATED charges."
We all are opposed to corruption wherever it is found and certainly we are opposed to bloated charges. The Government should sue to recover and tell its contracting officers to pay more attention to overcharges.
Our government has been just as ineffective on this score as it has been on illegal aliens and secure borders. What are we to do? We can write to congress and demand restitution and anti-corruption measures. But will that do any good no matter who is in charge of the congress and the white house? Look at Harry Reid's involvement in a project near Las Vegas. Reid is corrupt as are most politicians. Even our local mayor has been caught with significant conflicts of interest if not outright corruption. I despair about our country's future for many reasons -- corruption in both major parties, illegal aliens by the millions, those who would encourage more by excusing those already present.
"All the Sugar Beet, Cherries, Strawberries, Onions, Cucumbers, Apples"
This is a blatant falsehood. I picked potatoes and cucumbers in Wisconsin and cherries in Utah. This is a typical overstatement by Dee.
Ulty,
I was in the cherry fields of the Traverse City area every summer of my youth. There was nary a White face among the pickers.
Each summer the caravans of cars lined up and drove up to 1st pick strawberries, then Cherries. Then they travelled down to the Cucumber farms. Then topping onions, on and on until the late summer for Apple picking.
Ulty, I don´t disagree with you about the corruption in Congress and the Administration. It is flagrant, but I think it is heavier on the RNC side, particularly here in TX.
dee, how about employer AND employee sanctions to be fair? We shouldn't have a double standard here. Both groups are guilty.
There is no English Only proposal and you know it. It is English as the Official language. Twisting and spinning the truth again?
Pat,
I do agree.
Once the 12M are out of the shadows and the app 12M are registered in a legal Guest Worker program, then any illegal workers or employers hiring illegal workers should go to prison-detention center. Period.
We, in the meantime, do have Secure Borders and increased rate of Border Patrol agents.
Part of securing the border is building the fence. The BP can't secure the border without a physical barrier to assist them.
What about those immigrants waiting in line to come here legally? Do you think it fair that these illegals that have jumped ahead in line illegally should be rewarded for it while the others are still waiting? There is no proof that we need the 12 million here already. Many are standing on street corners begging for work. The housing industry is down and we are headed for a recession.
dee, if you want employer and illegal employee sanctions if and when we legalize these illegals, why do you only want employers punished right now before any legalization occurs but not the illegals? It is the same thing, dee. They are both guilty and both should be punished NOW. Our laws say RIGHT NOW that the employers should go to prison and the illegals deported. That is why I don't believe that you would want any new illegals punished AFTER any legalization process either. You would still only want the employers punished.
Post a Comment