Sunday, November 11, 2007

Gestapo State: HR 4088 - SAVE ACT - What it Really Means!

I ask all viewers to study HR 4088, the so-called SAVE ACT. If this link doesn´t work, go directly to the Thomas website and enter this bill number in the Search section. The site was acting a little weird. At first, it didn´t come up. Then I searched again an hour later, and it was there. At first the section links worked, then they didn´t. Finally, when it did let me in, I decided to just copy and paste the entire bill into a Word Document, but it only displayed through Section 204. I was not able to display through section 307.

This is the new Immigration Bill introduced by Congressman Heath Shuler, NC. This Congressman was just elected in 2006 and ran on the ANTI Comprehensive Immigration Reform ticket (otherwise known as "I hate illeeeeegals!") Rep Heath´s resume includes a stint as a Real Estate Broker and Football player.

Many ANTI sites support this ACT, obviously sight unseen since it is so hard to find on Thomas. (Its there, then it is not). This bill is also strongly supported by Tom (Johnny One Note) Tancredo. This is enough to make a PRO shiver in her boots before beginning the Read.
This Bill is the ANTIs "Dream Come True." It calls for:
1. Mass Deportation of the 12M via increased Enforcement
a. Sweeps and other Methods
b. Mandatory Employer Verification, Secure ID Programs
2. Increased Border Security through:
a. increased Border Patrols
b. increased fencing and technology including a Tunnel Task Force

New Stuff:
. Contractors providing both Technological and Border Security. If someone else reads this differently, please let me know!
Section 104, (3): EVALUATION OF CONTRACTORS- (A) REQUIREMENT FOR STANDARDS- The Secretary shall develop appropriate standards to evaluate the performance of any CONTRACTOR providing goods or services to carry out the Integrated and Automated Surveillance Program.

. MORE DETENTION CENTERS (they will need them if they are planning on detaining 12M people) -- All RNC Crony Owned Private Prisons!!Sec 111, (9) An assessment of additional detention facilities and beds that are needed to detain unlawful aliens apprehended at United States ports of entry or along the international land borders of the United States.
. OPERATION Wetback All Over Again!! (Which State will NOT declare an Emergency??)
SEC. 121. DEPLOYMENT OF BORDER PATROL AGENTS.
(a) Emergency Deployment of Border Patrol Agents-
(1) IN GENERAL- If the Governor of a State on an international border of the United States declares an international border security emergency and requests additional agents of the Border Patrol (referred to in this subtitle as `agents') from the Secretary, the Secretary, subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), may provide the State with not more than 1,000 additional agents for the purpose of patrolling and defending the international border, in order to prevent individuals from crossing the international border into the United States at any location other than an authorized port of entry.

This Bill calls for immediate implementation of these "enforcements" with Reports back to Congress. This Bill includes language for significantly Ramping up the number of Border Patrol agents by recruiting former Military and Contractors! (Shades of Blackwater!!) Is this a way for them to recruit Minutemen as Border Patrol Agents?
I am continuing to study this Bill! I encourage EVERYONE to do the same!
The ANTI sites and Tancredo are screaming for passage of this Bill!!
Help Save AMERICA from the SAVE ACT - HR 4088!!

READ THE BILL AND EDUCATE YOURSELVES!!

96 comments:

Liquidmicro said...

Still Dee, learn to research the correct information. Shuler is a Democrat, not a Republican, from North Carolina, not Tennessee. You can't even get it straight. The Blue Dog Coalition

Liquidmicro said...

President Bush and the rest of the open borders crowd constantly tell the American people that there are only two solutions to our nation's illegal alien crisis – give illegal aliens amnesty or round them up and deport them. This is a diversionary tactic to draw public attention away from the most effective and efficient solution – Attrition Through Enforcement.

The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government – at ALL LEVELS – enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliens; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here.

We know Attrition Through Enforcement will work because, until recently, it has been shown to work even with little or no enforcement. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a person’s eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud, and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to the feds.

Dee said...

Liquid, Ok. He is from NC.
All you had to do is click my link on him.

Dee said...

Liquid, Mass Deportation of the 12M is what it is.

The other "NEW Stuff" items I noted are pretty scary as well.

patriot said...

So much for dee's claim that she wants secure borders and employer sanctions. This is precisely what this bill does and yet she objects. If ever she has shown her true colors and what a liar she is it is with this topic.

The only thing she cares about is allowing these illegals to stay. Nothing else matters to her.

Dee said...

Pat,
I have always said bring the 12M out of the shadows and register them.
I have Never, Ever supported the Mass Deportation of the 12M, now or over 4 years.

patriot said...

But this bill will make them self deport and you aren't in favor of that either. The only way that employers will be sanctioned across the board as you "claim" you want is to pass this bill. As I said, you only want the employers penalized but not the illegals. That isn't fair because they are both guilty. So the next time you list your ideas of comprehensive reform which you do over and over and over make sure when you mention employer sanctions that in paranthesis you put (but don't sanction the illegals) if you want honest debate in here. I suppose you are in favor of a bank robber going to jail but not his accomplice driving the get-a-way car? This is an analogy dee, as you can't seem to comprehend anything.

Dee said...

How Naive, to say they will self deport.

IF this bill passes, this is forced Mass Deportation of 12M people to be completed within 4 years with monthly reports back to Congress.

IF this Bill passes, Private Armies (via contractors) will be formed filled with former military and MMs and a high rate of Private, Crony owned Prison - Detention Centers.

Sweeps will be Rampant. States will be declaring States of Emergencies if their numbers are not at the requested rate of deportations. Once the State of Emergency is announced, a thousand Contractor, Former Military will hit the streets and we will see Operation Wetback All over again.

Read the Bill!!
It is ALL THERE!!

ultima said...

Pat has you dead to rights on this one Dee. This bill is scary only to the illegals themselves and those, like you, who support them. This bill is the test of your sincerity by border security. Everyone knows that you cannot secure the borders without employer and illegal sanctions and a major increase in internal enforcement.

You appear to be a La Raza fifth columnist who periodically tries to seduce us by importuning us with "compromise" proposals which are no more than proposals for the mass legalization of all of the illegals in this country.

When you call HR4088 "Gestapo State", we know you are not serious about border security or compromise. You want CIR and mass legalization amounting to open borders. Sorry Dee, but you failed the citizenship test.

ultima said...

At Last an Immigration Reform Bill We All Can Support.

H.R. 4088, known as the SAVE bill, was recently introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives. In contrast to earlier bills which attempted to be all things to all people, this bill focuses on securing the border first and buttressing physical improvements at the border with more agents and more internal enforcement.

Under the provisions of this bill, 8,000 more border patrol agents will be added over the next five years with 80% to be deployed on the southern border and 20% on the northern border. This generally consistent with the perceived volume of illegal aliens violating the borders. Additional positions will also be added to the smuggling and tunneling task forces.

The act provides financial relief to sheriffs’ and local police offices if any part of their jurisdictions lies within 25 miles of the border. It requires the mandatory use of an electronic system for verifying the immigration status of all employees within four years and imposes no penalties if the employment of such illegals is immediately terminated. Mandatory notification of employers which have social security number/ name mismatches or if there have been multiple uses of a social security number and an electronic birth and death registration system are also features of this forward-looking bill. Employers will be denied the authority to deduct from gross income any wages paid to illegal aliens.

This is a very positive bill with 90 bi-partisan co-sponsors. If it passes both Houses of Congress, it will prove that so-called comprehensive reform was both misguided and unnecessary. Securing the borders, always should have been our first priority. Unless or until that happens no one should be talking about regularizing the illegal aliens already present in this country. A stepwise, systematic approach to reform has always been the best approach.

If this bill passes, we can the move on to other urgently needed measures such as the Official English and 14th Amendment reforms. , The passage of these measures would facilitate the solution of most of the remaining immigration reform problems including the illegals already present in our country.

Detractors, much to their discredit, like to label “Official English” measures as “English Only”. Official English only means that all official government business must be conducted in English and all government materials such as ballots must be printed only in English.

The 14th Amendment has long been abused by those who seek birthright citizenship for their offspring by whatever means it takes. One way to stop this abuse is to declare that a child is not “under the jurisdiction” of the United States unless at least one parent is a citizen.

Passage of these additional measures would remove two of the remaining impediments to the solution to the larger immigration issues.

Dee said...

Ulty,
You fail the Humanity Test!
How dare you claim this 12M Mass Deportation within 4 years using Blackwater type militia is anything but a Gestapo state!!
Shame on you!!

Dee said...

You also reveal your true agenda when you say the next steps are

1. Mandatory English Only bill
2. Changing the Birthright Citizenship of the 14th Ammendment

You have revealed your false PC position.

Dee said...

Then add insult to injury by posting your diatribe from the extremist ANTI site NumbersUSA.

Roy Beck is John Tanton´s godson!!

Anonymous said...

Shame on you dee for not being a
loyal American citizen.

Liquidmicro said...

Shame on Dee for being PC!! Nothing more than sheepleDee, BAAA BAAA BAAA

Dee said...

Name Calling. When the facts come out, all you ANTIs can do is call names.

The Facts are, HR4088 calls for Mass Deportation of 12M people within 4 years. It calls for a private army to enforce these deportations. It calls for many new crony owned prisons being built to incarcerate the 12M people.

Shame on you for violating Humanity and the Goals of our Founding Fathers!!

patriot said...

dee, Operaton Wetback won't include any legal citizens so what is your point? It is only about illegal aliens and there are other illegals here besides Mexican so you can't really call it by that name anyway.

What are they going to do if they don't have jobs? Of course they will self deport at least in their home countries that can get work just not get payed as much as here.

I read the bill and I am in full agreement with it. Any loyal American should be.

patriot said...

dee, it isn't about English only, it is about English as our official language. Utlima even stated that! Why do you lie about it? Many countries have an official language, Mexico for example. Guess that is ok though with you? You are a double standard hypocrite! What agenda? To seek a part of our heritage of English to be our official language and to require that at least one parent be a citizen of this country for their child to gain birthright citizenship is an agenda? How so? That is the requirement for most countries.

ultima said...

What is most disturbing about your perfidious distortions of what is basically a good bill is that you don’t see that without the support of all Americans, the nation, its ideals and its values, will not survive. It will be the Amexico you recently experienced in Dallas. The incredible shortsightedness of those who profess to be loyal Americans but who in fact support foreigners, foreign interests and foreign governments as well as the cheap labor and immigration lobbyists is laid bare for all to see in your blog. We know who the enemy is: those who belittle America’s attempts to secure its borders and sovereignty.

ultima said...

"Ulty,
You fail the Humanity Test!
How dare you claim this 12M Mass Deportation within 4 years using Blackwater type militia is anything but a Gestapo state!!"

We knew all along that you weren't serious about securing the borders. You talk a good game but, when the chips are down, you want to deny your country the tools needed to do the job.

Four years is a long time. It represents a long enough period so any dislocations to illegals and to our economy will be minimized. Keep in mind that both the illegals and their employers are complicit and so whatever punishment they reap is no more than their dues.

I guess you are too young or a neglectful student of history or you would know that the result of HR4088 would be nothing like the Gestapo state of Germany between 1933 and 1945. Perhaps if you think before you post you would have realized that the Gestapo was an equal opportunity police force that focused primarily on Germany's own citizens not illegal aliens. The Gestapo regularly used the grossest forms of torture to carry out its program of repression against the German people. As you well know, there is nothing whatsoever that permits such activity even against illegal aliens and certainly not against citizens. What are you thinking when you come up with such baseless accusations? You hurt your own cause by using such extreme language to characterize a basically good bill.

ultima said...

"I have always said bring the 12M out of the shadows and register them.
I have Never, Ever supported the Mass Deportation of the 12M, now or over 4 years."

Of course, we know that. This is your Johnny One Note issue. You support mass legalization, favoring the illegal aliens over the national interest.

If you are not going to do something about them once you register them, why bother? The catch phrase "bring them out of the shadows" doesn't cut it. That's where all illegals should remain until they go home. Senator Elizabeth Dole of North Carolina has said that anyone who enters this country should never ever have a pathway to citizenship. Now if you believe in employer sanctions, you have to be willing to provide the tools to prove who among them have employed illegals. The ssn mismatches and multiple uses are two benign ways of identifying these employers.

It is clear you have no interest in border security and internal enforcement. What is the point in discussing the issue with you?

ultima said...

Perhaps you should walk a few miles in the shoes of Blackwater employees in the streets of Bagdad or elsewhere in Iraq where they are charged with safeguarding civilian employees of the state department. Maybe you should be a protected passenger for 6 months as they transport you through the dangerous streets replete with an IED with your name on it. Maybe you would see things in a different light then as regards Blackwater. No one excuses their excesses but collateral damage is often the result of situations like those in Iraq. It's not too late for you to enlist or apply for a job with Blackwater so you can speak with a little more authority. Right now you are just bumping your gums.

ultima said...

"Mass Deportation of the 12M is what it is."

Tell me again what section or paragraph in the bill calls for mass deportations. You know and I know this is just your spin not reality.

ultima said...

"IF this Bill passes, Private Armies (via contractors) will be formed filled with former military and MMs and a high rate of Private, Crony owned Prison - Detention Centers."

You too can qualify. What better source for new agents than ex-GIs who have paid their dues and have the skills needed to apprehend, detain and repatriate illegals. The government has shown it can't or won't do the job so why not give private enterprise a try. With proper training regarding the rights of illegals, if they have any, and under the initial supervision of the ICE, this can be a very effective and humane way to solve the illegal alien problem.

ultima said...

"Senator Elizabeth Dole of North Carolina has said that anyone who enters this country should never ever have a pathway to citizenship."

That is, anyone who enters the country illegally.

Dee said...

Pat, Operation Wetback revisited is happening NOW in Oklahoma. I saw a number of commentors on their local newsites talking about this. My whole blog on Racial Profiling for OK was based on their comments and this happening.
With this new Gestapo SAVE Bill, and the reporting requirements and the need to sweep away 12M people in 4 years, it will happen again. No avoiding it!!
America´s Brown Children should be very afraid of all the future Racial Profiling which will occur as a result of this heinous bill.

Dee said...

I am quoting the Bill. I have published NO Distortions. What is DISTURBING is the heinous Bill itself!!

Dee said...

The enemy is you Ultima and all the ANTIs. You fail to see the benefits of our evolving society. We are a multi cultural society and proud of it. (all except the ANTIs)

You would prefer our society to remain the Mayberrian Vanilla society with nary a minority in site, except the help.

Dee said...

Turning our Brave USA into a Gestapo state are “the tools needed to do the job!” Sorry Ulty. No Sale.

We need CIR. We do need to Secure Borders, impose severe Employer Sanctions particularly to the Employers, and bring the 12M out of the shadows and provide them legal Guest Worker status. What is so hard to understand?

Dee said...

Are you kidding me Ulty? 4 years is NOT a long time to deport 12M people, and if they take their citizen children with them, you are talking 20M people. In order to meet the reports and the 4 year commitment, that is almost 14,000 people deported a day. This is close to 100,000 a week, over 400,000 a month and 5 Million a year. You are talking about deporting a group of people whose totals outnumber the total population of the State of –New York!!

Dee said...

Not a Gestapo State??
You have got to be kidding.

I hereby invite each of you to spend one week in the Hutto Detention Facility. You will not come in as an ANTI, but come in and be treated as inhumanely as they treat those swept away!!

Dee said...

Elizabeth Dole? The Right Winger married to good ole Viagra Bob? It should not surprise anyone that North Carolina is the HOME of the ANTIs. Willliam Gheen resides in NC. CarSalesman and New Congressguy Shuler is from NC. Home of the KKK they say!

Anonymous said...

Get them out of the Hutto Detention
Facility and back to Mexico as soon as possible. If this facility is so bad, let's put these facts in Mexican newspapers and maybe, just maybe that will deter more illegals from crossing the border.

Dee said...

I have posted many blogs about the Detention centers. So have others.

The media does not publicize the horrors that happen in them.

Guess What Anon? This Gestapo Bill of your calls for building many more of these Crony Owned Prison Detention Centers to house the 12M.

How much will that cost you?
How much will this bill and all the Blackwater military Cops cost you?
How much money will the RNC Cronies make from their privately owned Prisons?

Food for thought!

patriot said...

dee, what does a multi-cultural society have to do with illegal immgiration? Again, you falsely accuse those of us for the rule of law. You get more disgusting every day.

Again in one of your posts you show your unfairness and biasness by saying we should severely punish the employees but bring the illegals out of the shadows and reward them with a guest worker's visa. Why are you for punishing the employer but rewarding the illegals? Your sense of fairness stinks! They are both guilty of a crime!

patriot said...

Typo...severely punish the employers, not employees.

Dee said...

Pat,
You ANTIs don´t believe in Rule of Law. If you did, you would support the 14th Ammendment. You would support the fact that English is NOT the Official Language.
You don´t support these rules of law.

Many of you drive without your insurance papers in your car. There are countless laws everyone breaks every day.

Your rule of law argument is bogus my friend. We know your true agenda!

patriot said...

I do respect the ruling of the 14th Amendment right now even though it is being misinterpreted. I have never said that at this point that children from illegal aliens are not citizens. The Amendment can be reinterpreted through an act of congress however and I support that if it happens.

I also know that right now that English is not the official language of this country. But again there is legislation going on right now to make it so. I also support that change if it happens.

I don't drive without insurance and that is a lame argument for advocating the illegal invasion of our country anyway. Thats like comparing petty theft to murder. Both wrong but one with much more serious consequences.

Just what agenda do you think I have other than supporting the rule of law? Come on you've had you fangs and claws out for days now. Come right out and call all of us anti's racists, xenophobes and all the hateful, yet false accusation that you are just dying to say. Your venom has been dripping right down your chin for days down. Your side is losing and you know it and that is why you are being so hateful. I know, I heard how you get when the pro-illegal side is losing. You lost the Dream Act, CIR and the Ag job amnesty and it is just killing you, isn't it? If you decide you want to take your frustrations out on those of us posting in your blog, you will be here all by yourself.

Dee said...

Pat, I merely think you are misguided. You also have a wish for our country to evolve into a Mayberrian vanilla society you dreamed up when you watched the Andy Griffith show.

You do not embrace diversity or our thriving multi cultural society.

That is clear!

patriot said...

I am all for legal immigration in controlled numbers to assist immigrants in assimilation into our society. I don't care what culture or language they practice at home. We have an American identity and culture all of our own just like any other country on this planet including Mexico's mono-cultural society. From many things, "ONE".

Dee said...

I love this statement of the American Dream:

e pluribus unum: out of many one. one state made of many states. one culture made of MANY cultures. one tribe made of many tribes. one clan made of many clans. one family made of MANY families, made of individuals as unique and precious as life itself!

patriot said...

And out of many come ONE that is your clue here vs your claim of multi-culterism. That would mean out of many come MANY.

ultima said...

"e pluribus unum: out of many one"

I think the one you have in mind is Amexico or Mexico Norte.

ultima said...

"...bring the 12M out of the shadows and provide them legal Guest Worker status. What is so hard to understand?"

We have understood your unAmerican, pro-illegal, pro-La Raza biases for a long time. Nothing new there!

ultima said...

"Private Armies (via contractors) will be formed filled with former military and MMs and a high rate of Private, Crony owned Prison - Detention Centers."

You are reading stuff into the bill that is not there. Where does it mention private armies? Where does it mention MMs? You too can bid on the private, democrat-owned detention centers? By opposing this bill you now stand naked in the spotlight. We know who you are and where your loyalties lie. We know you have never been serious about border control because if you were you would know, as everyone else knows, physical barriers and more agents cannot stop the flow. Many writers have stated that. We have to have internal enforcement and that means mismatch and duplicate notifications to employers and employer and illegal sanctions. Anything short of that you know, just as we know, will fail. That indicates more clearly than any words you might post where your loyalty lies.

ultima said...

"The media does not publicize the horrors that happen in them."

This is just more of your hyperbole and gross exaggerations. Compared to what? Latin American prisons? You have to be kidding. The illegals are to blame for their condition whatever it might be: living in the shadows, residing in a detention center,on their way to deportation, family separations, etc. They have and always have had the solution to all of these problems -- stay home or go home and take your family with you.

It is only the most extreme among the bleeding heart liberals who see anything wrong with apprehension, detention and repatriation according to law. As has been stated many times, the rule of law doesn't mean that no one will ever violate the law. What it means is swift and sure punishment for those who are apprehended as prescribed by law. Somehow you expect speeders to be ticketed and fined but you want to excuse 12 million miscreant illegals from the appropriate penalty, repatriation. That means you don't believe in the rule of law, the foundation for all civilized societies, even multi-cultural ones. Get with the program Dee.

ultima said...

"Ulty,
You fail the Humanity Test!
How dare you claim this 12M Mass Deportation within 4 years using Blackwater type militia is anything but a Gestapo state!!"

This is pure unadulterated nonsense and you know it. Research and write a little essay on the German Gestapo state, the concentration camps, the ovens, the tortures, the Einsatzgruppen, etc.. Maybe then you will realize how far off base you are. Your use of such terms completely invalidates any arguments you might otherwise make. You claim to be a researcher but you can't even seen the obvious falseness of your Gestapo state hyperbole. Reminds me of some of the good old days when folks using such inappropriate language were tossed off MATT. You are certainly eligible for such treatment.

What is the bleeding heart liberal humanity test? Does it mean we are not entitled to our sovereignty? Does it mean we must excuse all law breakers? Does it mean Amexico? Your humanity test is too biased by La Raza, MEChA, Aztlan racist ideas. Let's take humanity as a given and take a national interest, loyalty, sovereignty test? You have already failed miserably by your own words and ineptitude.

ultima said...

"I merely think you are misguided"

Truer words have never been written as they apply to Dee. Actually, she is more than misguided. She is involved in an intensive propaganda campaign in support of illegal aliens and against this country, trying to lull us into complacency while population numbers work their magic to convert the U.S. into an Amexico cloud cuckoo land.

We should all be grateful this Thanksgiving that a congressman has come forward with a bill, with 90 bi-partisan co-sponsors, that will take a systematic, stepwise approach to bringing the army of illegal aliens and their fellow travelers into a modicum of control. Even my congressman Mark Udall, a dyed in the wool bleeding heart liberal, has signed on to this excellent bill. What does he know that Dee doesn't? Obviously, she is reading it through a glass darkly while he is reading it for its substance as a step forward in the immigration debate.

ultima said...

"e pluribus unum: out of many one. one state made of many states. one culture made of MANY cultures. one tribe made of many tribes. one clan made of many clans. one family made of MANY families, made of individuals as unique and precious as life itself!"

Clearly this is not working as evidenced by the chasm between the pro-legals and the anti-legals. The anti-legals, anti-rule of law folks simply don't understand how inconsistent their position is in relation to e pluribus unum. The unlikelihood of e pluribus unum when a significant proportion of the population favors illegal aliens and foreign interests should be self-evident. You have to be rather dense not to see that. When will all Americans put the national interest, sovereignty, culture, language, flag, and laws first?

ultima said...

"1. Mandatory English Only bill
2. Changing the Birthright Citizenship of the 14th Ammendment

You have revealed your false PC position."

My position on 1. and 2. has been consistent ever since I began posting in blogs or on MATT. You know that. We even had a debate on the former at my initiative. I have never claimed to be PC false or otherwise. PC is the bane of our existence and the root of many of our problems.

ultima said...

What diatribe is that? I'm not sure who or what you are referring to but I do believe in posting anything I believe is relevant to this or any other blog, regardless of who the original author might be. Roy Beck is a patriot and a scholar. Roy Beck for INS Commissioner.

ultima said...

"Mandatory English Only bill"

This is yet another obvious distortion on your part. I have made perfectly clear that the proposal is for "Official English" and you keep twisting that in a way that invalidates whatever point you were trying to make. Write it down this time so you will have no excuse for making this mistake again. If you are going to refer to one of my posts, use the language I used not something you make up. Try it, you'll like it. It will be like a breath of fresh air after your long and dubious history of distortions and hyperbole.

Dee said...

Et Tu Ulty? Resorting ton ame calling?

I have never strayed from my position:
1. Secure Borders
2. Employer Sanctions
3. Bring the 12M out of the shadows into legal Guest Worker status

The one thing that is obvious is you are passionate about the passage of this bill.

Tell me, my friend. How is it going to pass when it has no support in the Senate?
Tell me, my friend. From your perspective, what are the next steps the ANTIs, your guys Beck and Tancredo and ANTI strategists will take to try to get this bill passed?

Dee said...

My cousin works in a Detention Center and she sees the horrors on a day to day basis. Until you stay one week in a Detention Center as an ANTI, you cannot say otherwise.
What about the fact they are held from the time of the sweep, for months until their court case, then once deportation is deemed, they have to continue to wait until enough people have gone through this process from their country for a mass group to be sent home? Meanwhile, crony prison owner pockets are filled since they are paid for each head. Ever wonder why whole families are incarcerated? Follow the money and you always find the answer.

Shame on you Ulty, for supporting these terroristic, inhumane conditions.
I doubt your ancestors said anything during the Japanese American internments in WW2!

ultima said...

"Private Armies (via contractors)..."
Since when does private enterprise deserve the label of "private armies"? I guess you worked for a fortune 500 private army! If you think the company you worked for was a forward looking, successful company why would you think an enterprise that wins a repatriation contract through a bidding process would be otherwise? Leave out the hyperbole. If you can't debate the substance of the matter, just remain silent rather than trying uselessly to make a point solely with hyperbole, distortions, misrepresentations, misquoting, etc. It won't work. We know you for what you are -- the grand researcher who does very little of it.

Dee said...

Ulty,
Since you and most ANTIs do not understand the meaning of this word, here is the definition:

Humanity: the quality of being humane; kindness; benevolence.

Dee said...

Private Armies:

According to THE NEW YORK TIMES, there are between 160,000 and 180,000 private contractors in Iraq, including about 30,000 armed security forces. Blackwater employees represent about 1000 of these armed contractors. There were only about 9,200 total private contractors during the Persian Gulf War.


Based on HR 4088 documentation, we can expect these same Private Armies if this heinous bill passes.

Dee said...

Eric Prince, Blackwater chief, is a member of the Mercenary Trade Association aka International Peace Operations Association. -- incredibily Orwellian.

Prince owns Blackwater, the largest private army being paid billion of dollars in contracts. No private actor has had such a devastating impact.

Prince and his family are also some of the largest contributors to George Bush and the RNC. (cronyism to the extreme)

Crony owned prisons and Crony owned Armies, now planned for the Homefront IF this Bill passes. Blackwater was in New Orleans. You can BET if this bill passes, Blackwater will be on the Border. This is practically written in the Bill!! Devastating for America!

All Americans should view this Blackwater in New Orleans Video

ultima said...

As long as we offer jobs, medical treatment, driver's licenses and in-state tuition to those who come here illegally, why would any right-thinking, would-be immigrant take a number and wait his or her turn? Why not just throw in the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders and free tequila while we're at it? -- Kathleen Parker

ultima said...

"Humanity: the quality of being humane; kindness; benevolence."

Does this definition require us to abandon loyalty to one's country, the rule of law, the national interest and national sovereignty as you apparently have done?

Why not recognize that we can extend kindness and benevolence to other countries and their peoples through foreign aid and cooperative projects in a way that does not require the abandonments noted above? Why not extend that kindness to our own citizens by removing those who are willing to work for substandard wages and who (like Amexico in Dallas) are not socially integrated and culturally and linguistically assimilated.

Perhaps you should go to medical school and follow in Albert Schweitzer's footsteps or join Mother Theresa in India's slums. I know that would require a bigger personal sacrifice than you are prepared to make. That is a measure of your humanity. You want to foist your shallow concepts of humanity on all other U.S. citizens without giving a thought to how inhumane that might be for most Americans as their country is converted to Mexico Norte with all the ills of the original.

There are many ways to demonstrate humanity without giving away one's country. I'm sure you have many other outlets for your humanity that would be less offensive to your fellow more loyal citizens.

ultima said...

My view is that there are many more private enterprises besides Blackwater. Your own employer could hire and train folks to do this job without the private army overtones you insist on.

You also are impugning ex-GIs by denying this job opportunity to them. Are these the same GIs you praised in other posts? Are these the same GIs represented by those in your extended family who have served? What if they wanted a job doing this kind of work? With proper training and supervision this job can be done humanely by just about anyone. After all this is not a combat zone like Iraq, at least not yet. People can be trained to be gentle and helpful while doing their duties, whether public or private employees.

Dee said...

Ulty, As I said, it is obvious you and all the ANTIs are passionate about the passage of this bill.

Tell me, how will this bill pass when it has no support in the Senate?

From your perspective, what are the next steps the ANTIs, your guys Beck, Tancredo, William Gheen and all the ANTI strategists will take to try to get this bill passed?

Dee said...

It will NEVER pass.

We Americans DO NOT WANT A MILITARY GESTAPO STATE filled with Blackwater Private Armies conducting Racial Profiling through Border Towns or Hispanic Neighborhoods in order for them to meet the number the monthly reports require:
In order to meet the reports and the 4 year commitment, that is almost 14,000 people deported a day. This is close to 100,000 a week, over 400,000 a month and 5 Million a year. You are talking about deporting a group of people whose totals outnumber the total population of the State of –New York!!

No matter HOW MUCH YOU WISH IT, True Americans will NEVER ALLOW THIS BILL TO PASS!!

ultima said...

Re: the SAVE bill: I don't know what others will do but I will continue to push for its passage. I know at least one of my senators will vote for it and my congressman is a co-sponsor. The senate is a nonrepresntative body because it is not based on population. They need to pay attention to the voice of the people in the House.

I would be glad to spend some time in a detention center to see the "horrors" you speak of in your hyperbole. Will you join me in the chamber of horrors?

I am all in favor of expedited deportation without lengthy court proceedings. I believe a deportation decision should be made within 24 hours after detention and an appeal limited by a one week deadline. I'm sure these folks would be released immediately if they agreed to involuntary deportation at their own expense. They don't have to have long stays -- only if they fight deportation. They otherwise could just go home.

Dee said...

Ulty, Hyperbole is your game. I merely quote fact and personal experience. As I mentioned, my cousin works at a Detention Center in Texas.

patriot said...

Right, and your cousin is probably an ethnocentric illegal alien sympathizer just like you. Yeah, she would have a totally unbiased view, lol.

ultima said...

"Mandatory English Only bill"

I guess you flip flopped on this issue. Some time ago when we were discussing HR1940 I, you indicated that perhaps that Official English bill was not so bad after all and that you might be able to support it.Too bad I didn't capture that post so I could play it back to you since your memory is not so good these days.

By the way, Daniela would like to see some more OpEds. How about it? Will you submit one? Do you have an email address for Lupita to encourage her to also submit one or more?

Liquid and Pat please also consider submitting an OpEd to MATT's blog.

Dee said...

Ulty, I would have to see the particular response. It may have been a "compared to xxx, then xxx would not be so bad." I don´t know.

I saw your OpEd. You write very well and you make an interesting case. I just don´t agree with many of your opinions.

My blog keeps me pretty busy and I´ve joined several other groups and forums now so I don´t visit there often. I do visit your site from time to time however just because I like you!

Anonymous said...

Just a few of the features of this Bill include:

8000 more Border Patrol agents

More Judges, courts, and detention centers.

Border fencing and vehicle barriers (where needed), and all-weather surveillance roads in conjunction with high tech surveillance equipment including satellite surveillance, infra red, and seismic detection. It requires construction along the border to take into account environmental and private land use needs.

Requires development of a national strategy to secure the borders and all ports of entry to the United States by December 31, 2010.

This Bill even has accountable and transparent financing of the effort built into it giving power of oversight to the Comptroller and Inspector Generals to keep Congress appraised.

This bill is going to receive some stiff opposition from organizations like LULAC and LaRaza, and incumbent Democrats beholding to the illegal immigrant population communities, and incumbent Republicans beholding to employers pressing for cheap illegal labor. They will try to fight this Bill. This SAVE Act offers the Independent voters in America the first real opportunity to flex their newfound muscle by supporting this Bill and pressing their representatives to vote for this legislation.

Call your congressman today and ask him / her to co-sponsor the Save Act HR 4088.

Let’s take our country back !

Dee said...

Anon,
This bill is calls for deportation of the 12 - 20 M people in 4 years. This is larger than the population of new york. It calls for the re emergence of Operation Wet back. It states consultants - ala Blackwater to complete this operation. They would need the new detention centers to house the 12M. Consultants and Prisons all privately owned and no bid contracts to RNC cronies.

This would be worse than Nazi Germany.

And you and all like you want it to pass!! We know your true agenda!

Anonymous said...

Under E-Verify:

Americans being hired for a job would not have to do anything different. They simply would give their name, birth date and Social Security number – just like they have to do now.

Then, businesses would send that information to a government data base – just like they do now.

The government databases handling the information already exist. The SAVE Act does nothing to increase the government’s awareness of where a person works or of personal information.

The only thing that the SAVE Act changes is that the government must tell the businesses when the data they’ve sent on a new hire indicate the person may be an illegal alien. If the questioned new hires turn out to be Americans or legal foreign workers, there is an easy process to make that clear. But if they are illegal aliens, they will lose their jobs.

Call your congressman and urge him to co-sponsor this bill. Secure our interior and borders.

Dee said...

Anon, If you think HR4088 is BAU, you are sadly mistaken.

I encourage all readers to read the entire bill. Think of Blackwater and the moves they are already making. Look at their history of heinous actions.

Think of the additional Detention Centers that the bill is calling for. Billions to crony contractors and private prison owners.

This is the kind of terrorism one remembers when thinking of the Japanese internment centers of the Nazi camps in Germany. Deplorable!

Anonymous said...

Supporters of the SAVE Act include:

More than 100 Republican and Democrat co-sponsors, including nearly all of the hard-line Republican opponents of illegal immigration and 15 Democratic House committee chairmen.

The National Federation of Independent Businesses (NFIB), which represents more than 600,000 small businesses in every state. NFIB endorsement said that H.R. 4088 strikes a "fair balance between increased enforcement and limiting regulatory burdens placed on small businesses."

The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), which represents more than 725,000 American workers. IBEW endorsed the H.R. 4088 because it focuses on denying "entry of all unauthorized immigrants into the United States by securing its border to the maximum extent possible without compromising constitutionally guaranteed personal and civil liberties." The IBEW went on to say that "mass unregulated immigration into the United States creates unfair wages competition, which is detrimental to the best interests of U.S. citizens and legal residents..."

The National Association of Police Organizations, which represents more than 2,000 police unions and associations, 238,000 sworn law enforcement officers, 11,000 retired officers and more than 100,000 citizens who share a common dedication to fair and effective crime control and law enforcement

Dee said...

The people who support this act do not understand the dire implications. That is obvious.

Blackwater Contractors and enforcers? More Crony owned heinous detention centers? Come on!

Anonymous said...

"This would be worse than Nazi Germany."

Unless we start breaking out torture and gas chambers this comparison is a bit childish.

"I encourage all readers to read the entire bill. Think of Blackwater and the moves they are already making. Look at their history of heinous actions.

Think of the additional Detention Centers that the bill is calling for. Billions to crony contractors and private prison owners.

This is the kind of terrorism one remembers when thinking of the Japanese internment centers of the Nazi camps in Germany. Deplorable!"


When you say the heinous acts committed by Blackwater contracts I hope you know it was the Iraqi's who captured, tortured, and burned alive 4 AMERICANS and put their bodies on display on a bridge in Fallujah. To me that is a heinous crime.

Most contractors are ex-GI's and for you to call them chronies is a despicable act considering that they fought and continue to fight for a better United States even if they're doing it under a name other than the Air Force, Marine Core, Army, or Navy.

Terrorism: in the modern sense[1] is violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals

To refer to the bill as being one of terrorism is to say that its in the same category as the Taliban who brought down the twin towers. That was an act of terrorism.

Elsa said...

I see nothing in this bill that talks about deportation of the 12-20 million undocumented people living in the U.S. In what part do they discuss deportation of those already living in the U.S.?

I support increased border security but those of you defending Blackwater mercenaries are crazy. Blackwater should scare the hell out of anyone who believes in the U.S. Constitution. Anyone hear about the massacre in Nisoor Square? Seventeen Iraqi citizens were gunned down because those trigger-happy cowboys got an itch and they are accountable to no one.

The idea of having private militias patrol the U.S. borders is terrifying. Do your homework on Blackwater before defending them. Ask anyone who works for the U.S. military how they feel about Blackwater guys getting paid 6x more than they do for doing the same job.

And those of you bashing Dee for "failing the citizenship test" I challenge you to take the test right now. I'd bet those of you screaming the loudest would not pass.
http://www.cititest.com/

Anonymous said...

Co-sponsor the SAVE Act
HR 4088 or S2366 & S2368

For too long, Congress and the President have looked the other way while our immigration laws were broken. The bottom line is that no law we pass in Washington will be effective until it is enforced. So the SAVE Act increases the investigative abilities of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) by increasing agents, including an additional 140 Criminal Alien Program officers to pick up those illegal immigrants local law enforcement has apprehended.

If we subsidize something, we get more of it. This country subsidizes illegal immigration. Our immigration laws are not enforced. We give social benefits to illegal aliens. Local law enforcement is prevented from enforcing immigration laws. We give illegal aliens our jobs.

It’s time for Congress to step up to the plate and pass enforcement legislation without a pathway to citizenship. These two issues need not be linked.

Dee said...

The Gestapo SAVE ACT will not pass.

The people who support this act do not understand the dire implications. That is obvious.

Blackwater Contractors and enforcers? More Crony owned heinous detention centers? Come on!

Pilgrim said...

Dee, I just stumbled across this blog. It has been a long time since I have run across someone as aggressively misinformed as you appear to be.

Let's address a couple of points, but first let me introduce myself.

My name is Kent Lundgren. I am a retired Immigration Officer and Border Patrolman. I put in over 30 years in half a dozen positions in five states and Puerto Rico. I am now Chairman of the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers. http://www.nafbpo.org.

1) Nowhere in the SAVE does it call for mass arrests or deportations. You repeat that mantra without attribution - you are unable to cite a source because none exists. No one in a position of authority has ever called for them, although the process has frequently been set up as a straw man in the debate, just as you do now.

2) Nobody likes being in detention. Those there have ample time to develop imagined grievances and horror stories - some of them even believe their own stories, after while. There are occasional real ones, but they are rare, and they are typically dealt with quickly. FYI, there are Mexican Consular Officers stationed in quite a few of the Detention Centers and Border Patrol Sector Headquarters, as a matter of fact. I have been in and out of Centers hundreds of times. Typically, the worst thing that happens is the air conditioning breaks down or they run low on pork chops and have to serve baloney sometimes.

For four years I was a Deportation Officer, making travel arrangements and escorting high-risk detainees abroad. I will call your cousin a liar to his face if he says that aliens are held for months until a large group can be made up. Not so. But sometimes a foreign government will not issue a travel document to an alien in detention so that the U.S. can send him home. We cannot send someone to a foreign country until that government agrees to accept him. I have seen those cases drag on for a year or more, sometimes. It is not the fault of the U.S. government, in that case. Often, the alien can be released on bond while it goes on, unless he is a criminal. If he can't make bond, again, not the government's fault; he should have made some friends.

We don't need a guest worker program at all. While the government publicizes an unemployment figure under 5%, it is deceptive; the true number of people seeking jobs is at least half again to twice that. The government reports that, too, but it doesn't get publicized. That, FYI, is about 14 million people unemployed in the U.S. Check the website of the Bureau of Labor Statistics to see how they do their count.

Because of that, NAFBPO is about to call for a temporary worker program, all right, but with workers recruited within the U.S, not foreign countries. We should get our temporary workers from Michigan, not Michoacan; Georgia, not Guanajuato. Our goal is to bring the American worker out of the shadows, to have the American employer do as much for his compatriots as he is willing to do for foreigners.

Kent Lundgren
Chairman
National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers

Pilgrim said...

"So the SAVE Act increases the investigative abilities of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) by increasing agents, including an additional 140 Criminal Alien Program officers to pick up those illegal immigrants local law enforcement has apprehended."

Anonymous, that's a sweet thought, true, but apparently irrelevant. The fact is this: the Administration has just pulled 1,000 ICE agents off of immigration enforcement and put them to working Customs cases.

For everyone's information, let me synopsize something that has not been discussed directly anywhere I know of.

It's not much of an overstatement to say that the U.S. no longer has any enforcement officers dedicated to pursuing illegal aliens (NOT employers) in the U.S.

The Border Patrol is no longer an immigration enforcement entity, since it was moved to the Dept. of Homeland Security. Its mission is to secure the border - to the extent they arrest illegals now, it is because they are violating the border when they cross illegally, not because they are aliens. Once an illegal gets away from the immediate border area the Border Patrol is out of the picture.

There are two exceptions to the utter lack of interior enforcement. Both are small in number.

Across the nation, there are perhaps 200 agents dedicated to chasing deportation skips, that is, people ordered deported but who failed to depart on their own, as ordered.

And there is much smaller number than that of agents assigned to work organized crime/gang/drug task forces.

The alien on the street no longer has anything to fear from his own illegal status - nobody's looking for him any more.

Kent Lundgren
Chairman
National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers

Dee said...

Mr. Lundgren,
You are welcome to post your Opinión here, but we all know your view is just your opinión. Just as it was just your opinion when you rallied against the Comprehensive Immigration Reform bill in June. You do not scare me nor do you intimidate me. This is America sir and we Americans ALL have a right to voice our opinions in these blog forums.

I am not misinformed, Mr. L. I have relatives who work in the detention centers. They do not see the sanitized public version you seem to be promoting. They see the hard core truth. Those crony owned tent prisons are nothing more than the Japanese Internment Camps all over again.


You, sir, have an agenda and it is obvious. When I google your name, the links I see are VDare,

In the first link, your letter to the ANTI masses tell us your agenda, your quest for power: “My name is Kent Lundgren. I am coordinating the formation of a fledgling organization called the National Association of Former Border Patrol Agents. We are not as yet formally organized, but we are in the process of doing so…Does the country need another immigration control organization? That's debatable, but we see ourselves as what I'll call "tribal elders" in these discussions. .”

Tribal Elders? You have GOT to be KIDDING!! How power hungry are you?

Your statements say you want to stop Immigration and stop the Guest Worker programs. Good Luck. However I doubt your wish will ever happen.

You sir, are no longer a BP Agent. You are a retiree. Does that mean you participated in Operation Wetback? Did you enjoy it? These operations are similar to the strategies alluded to in HR 4088. They will NOT happen again!

You sir are promoting anger and hate. Please stop.

Dee said...

Additionally from Shuler´s website re: HR4088:
(OPERATION WETBACK REDUX)
.Increases investigative abilities of ICE by employing more agents and training additional state and local law enforcement personnel.
• EXPEDITES the removal of illegal aliens by expanding detention capacity and increasing the number of Federal District Court Judges.

And:
The reference to 4 years:Expands the E‐Verify program and requires it for all employees over four years.

Admit the truth Mr. L.
You say you want mass deportation of 12M people.
In order to meet the reports and the 4 year commitment, that is almost 14,000 people deported a day. This is close to 100,000 a week, over 400,000 a month and 5 Million a year. You are talking about deporting a group of people whose totals outnumber the total population of the State of –New York!!

Pilgrim said...

Dee, you certainly have every right to your opinion, misinformed though we believe it to be.

Does NAFBPO have an agenda? Of course, just as you do. Freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Constitution to ensure that differing agendas are debated, for it is through disputation that truth is reached.

You needn't go to VDare to see who we are - VDare was simply one of many recipients of our announcement of formation. Our website tells it perfectly clearly: http://www.nafbpo.org explains all. You will find our statements reasonable in tone, even if you don't like them. By design, we avoid ill-considered shrillness that only detracts from the strength of an argument.

As to the "tribal elders" statement that lit your fuse so delightfully - we say that because there is no other group in the United States, including the Congress, that has the institutional memory of what has gone before, what has failed, and what has succeeded, and why, in the field of immigration.

Although I am not old enough to have participated in Operation Wetback, we have members who did. That operation was a resounding success, and while the mass-sweep methods are not to be employed in America today, they worked quite well, driving out more than twice as many lawbreakers as were actually arrested. That is called "enforcement leverage," and it is what we know we will see when SAVE goes into effect. The Oklahoma law is already forcing illegal aliens out of the state - it is an excellent proof-of-concept.

There are fourteen million unemployed Americans (and in that characterization, we always include our legal alien guests). We want to bring them out of the shadows in their own country. We are utterly baffled about why any American would have it otherwise. Can you, in rational, non-pejorative, non-confrontational terms, explain why that is? Why you would sacrifice the well-being of your compatriots for foreigners?

If you can't present a rational case (and you have not done so yet in anything I've seen) then you are just another nut case, indistinguishable from the nut cases who write for the other side.

Kent Lundgren
Chairman
NAFBPO

Pilgrim said...

Dee, to avoid misinterpretations, I'm going to put my notes in italics the middle of your post.

Additionally from Shuler´s website re: HR4088:
(OPERATION WETBACK REDUX)This is your comment; it does not come from the bill.
.Increases investigative abilities of ICE by employing more agents and training additional state and local law enforcement personnel. At this time, there is nearly no response by ICE to state and local agencies who encounter criminal aliens. This provision gives those other agencies an additional tool to use against criminal aliens. Surely, you can't be trying to make the case for criminals being allowed to remain here?!
• EXPEDITES the removal of illegal aliens by expanding detention capacity and increasing the number of Federal District Court Judges. Of course there needs to be an expansion of detention capacity. One of the reasons there are 600,000 aliens running around out there who have been ordered deported is that there was no place to lodge them when they were ordered deported, so they were allowed to depart on their own. They broke the trust placed in them when they didn't go. That's got to stop. As to District Court Judges, the need is clear if you know how things work. Every alien is entitled to his day in Federal Court; many of them call for it. That has tied the courts up, so that the alien is free to remain in the U.S. for years waiting for his case to be heard. That is counterproductive to any plan to reform immigration. When an alien is ordered deported, he should have his appeals, and then be GONE when they are over.

And:
The reference to 4 years:Expands the E‐Verify program and requires it for all employees over four years. Yes. And your point is .. .? E-Verify is intended to deny employment to illegal aliens. It'd be pretty silly to have it, then not put it into effect.

Admit the truth Mr. L.
You say you want mass deportation of 12M people.
Wrong. And it is either a lie, or you are so dumb (which I don't take for granted yet) that you cannot understand the clear meaning of a statement. Let me shout it for you: WE DO NOT PROPOSE OR SUPPORT THE MASS DEPORTATION OF 12 MILLION PEOPLE! There. Was that clear enough? If I seem impatient, it's because willful misinterpretation of someone's statements is a cheat, no different than a lie told about them. What we support is the mass DEPARTURE, on their own, of somewhere between ten and twenty million illegal aliens over the next seven to ten years, as it becomes increasingly difficult for them to stay here. They nearly all have foreign homes: let them return to them on their own, in orderly fashion of their own design, taking their families with them. We would hope that by 2015 or so, an illegal alien can't even get a library card in this country, much less jobs, mortgages, or public benefits.
In order to meet the reports and the 4 year commitment, that is almost 14,000 people deported a day. This is close to 100,000 a week, over 400,000 a month and 5 Million a year. You are talking about deporting a group of people whose totals outnumber the total population of the State of –New York!!Once again, we are NOT talking about deporting 400,000 a month. What we hope for is that 400,000 a month, more or less, will leave on their own because staying here is no longer an option.

Kent Lundgren
Chairman
NAFBPO

Dee said...

Kent,
I believe you are misinformed. You believe I am misinformed.
We will call even.

I am glad you agree we both, as citizens, equally enjoy the freedoms of the 1st Ammendment, including Freedom of Speech.

Operation Wetback was not a resounding success. My parents talked of the terrors of the neighborhood sweeps in primarily Hispanic Neighborhoods. This racial profiling caused needless terror on Hispanic families with children. Shameful!

I have read many comments from Oklahoma in which residents of color, including Hispanics, Native Americans and other minorities decried the terror they felt by the passage of the xenophobic “MM lobbied” OKL law and the impact on their families knowing they never voted on such an Bill.

We are currently at one of the lowest rates of unemployment in recent history.

I agree we want to bring the 12M here out of the shadows and register them as Guest Workers and those that qualify may enter into a path to earned citizenship.

I have encountered many ANTIs such as yourself. You neither accept logic nor rational arguments. You believe the only solution is mass deportation of 12M people regardless of the History that brought us to this point and regardless of the devastation this would cause to our own economy.

When you consider the ramifications of your recommended solution, who then is the nut case. It is not me.

Dee said...

Kent,
Your name calling does not intimidate me. In fact, it lessens your credibility. Why not try debating intelligently as most of my commenters do. This is a place of logical and civil debate. Please do not resort to name calling. It diminishes your credibility.

Your comment: “Mass Departure on their own.”
Mass Deportation, Mass Departure. The end result is the same. All gone.
10 – 20 M people. The State of New York. Gone.

Come now, Kent. Do you truly believe Mass Voluntary Departure will happen?
I don´t. Second, Big Business won´t let them go.

We know you and your side will resort to strong arm tactics or as the bill states “expedited removal”
We know you have Blackwater building a compound near the San Diego border. We know they have build non-manned aircraft in their center in NC. We know the plans if this bill passes.

Does it surprise you that we know what your plans are? They are, after all, public record.

Pilgrim said...

Dee said...

Kent,
I believe you are misinformed. You believe I am misinformed.
We will call even.

I am glad you agree we both, as citizens, equally enjoy the freedoms of the 1st Ammendment, including Freedom of Speech.

Operation Wetback was not a resounding success. My parents talked of the terrors of the neighborhood sweeps in primarily Hispanic Neighborhoods. This racial profiling caused needless terror on Hispanic families with children. Shameful!

Yes, Dee, it was a resounding success. The operations was intended to force illegal aliens out of the United States. It did that. Thus, a success. The U.S. has evolved beyond the stage of "neighborhood sweeps"; they are no longer a part of the enforcement playbook. Which is not to say that enforcement efforts should not be targeted at, for instance, day-labor collection points where the people are predominantly illegal aliens. But even then, you won't see (nor did you ever) a general roundup of everyone at a work site. Each person will be interviewed and those who have no right to be in the U.S. will be taken away.

I have read many comments from Oklahoma in which residents of color, including Hispanics, Native Americans and other minorities decried the terror they felt by the passage of the xenophobic “MM lobbied” OKL law and the impact on their families knowing they never voted on such an Bill.
No, their elected representatives voted on the bill. Except, of course, for the illegal aliens who are not eligible to have an elected representative. They are properly the targets of the law.

We are currently at one of the lowest rates of unemployment in recent history. No. The accurate statement is that we are at one of the lowest reported rates. But if you go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics website and look, you will see that there are millions of job seekers who are not longer being counted - that doesn't mean they aren't looking for work, it means that for one bureaucratic reason or another, they are not part of the statistical base. There are almost as many of them as there are those counted. Thus, there are about fourteen million out of work not the reported, roughly seven million. Of those fourteen million, the undereducated, unskilled and semiskilled workers are disproportionately represented. That is the group most directly in competition for jobs with the illegal alien, and the presence of millions of illegal aliens is why those Americans can't find jobs.

I agree we want to bring the 12M here out of the shadows and register them as Guest Workers and those that qualify may enter into a path to earned citizenship.
I don't know who you are agreeing with, Dee, when you say that. It is certainly not my group. We believe those twelve million (or however many) need to be gone from the U.S, back to their foreign homes. Nothing personal or xenophobic about that, it's just that it is the American worker who needs to be brought out of the shadows and millions of illegal aliens stand in the way of doing that.

I have encountered many ANTIs such as yourself. You neither accept logic nor rational arguments. You believe the only solution is mass deportation of 12M people regardless of the History that brought us to this pointWhat history is that? I think I'm pretty familiar with most of the history on the issue, and I know of nothing that justifies what's going on with respect to illegal immigration.
and regardless of the devastation this would cause to our own economy.
Rational arguments are persuasive. In fact, when I first came into this fray a year ago I favored a temporary worker program. Then I started doing some research and thinking and discovered that not only do we not need one, such a program would be damaging to the interests of the American worker. As to impact on the economy, we believe that attrition through enforcement provides a gradual solution, humane to the alien in that it allows him to leave on this own, and the gradualism of the process allows the American employer to adapt to the new realities of the labor supply.

When you consider the ramifications of your recommended solution, who then is the nut case. It is not me. As to the "nut case" remark, note how I phrased that when I said it. As to the ramifications, they are two-fold: one is beneficial to the U.S. and its workers in many ways. The other is tough on the illegal aliens. Too bad, but I have no exaggerated degree of sympathy for those who have tried to build a life on breaking the law. Certainly, many, even most, of them are decent, hard-working people. As are the millions of Americans they displace from the labor market. So, forced to choose between a foreigner who has broken the law by coming here, and an American who needs a job, I'll choose the American every time.

December 3, 2007 8:04 PM
Dee said...

Kent,
Your name calling does not intimidate me.
Nobody called any names, Dee, nor have I attempted to intimidate you. I used the words "dumb" and "nut case" in the qualified sense that if you don't start presenting rational arguments instead of lies, misrepresentations, mud-slinging, and name-calling, you'll come across as just another dumb, nut-case. This quote from one of your posts sums up what I mean. "You fail the Humanity Test!
How dare you claim this 12M Mass Deportation within 4 years using Blackwater type militia is anything but a Gestapo state!!" There is not one element of truth in that statement, not in the direct statements or in the inferences one could draw from it, yet you use it to impugn the character of another participant here.

In fact, it lessens your credibility. Why not try debating intelligently as most of my commenters do. This is a place of logical and civil debate. Please do not resort to name calling. It diminishes your credibility.

Your comment: “Mass Departure on their own.”
Mass Deportation, Mass Departure. The end result is the same. All gone. 10 – 20 M people. The State of New York. Gone.
Well, yes. That's sort of the whole point, isn't it? There is a substantial difference, of course, in the method, and methods matter. We see "gone" as a good thing, a goal to be achieved. Think of it as 20 cities the size of Denver, made up of people who broke the law to get here. Yes, gone is good. Attrition through enforcement is the most humane was to do it.

Come now, Kent. Do you truly believe Mass Voluntary Departure will happen?Yes, I do. It's already happening in Oklahoma and other places where illegal aliens are made unwelcome. They move on to other, more hospitable, states. Our goal is to make the hospitable state a foreign state.
I don´t. Second, Big Business won´t let them go.Big business can't stop them from going; they're not slaves.

We know you and your side will resort to strong arm tactics
What are those, in your mind?
or as the bill states “expedited removal.”
"Expedited Removal" has been the law since about 1996. All it does is establish certain categories of aliens who can be removed quickly. It does not remove any of the due process that entitles them to phone calls, full consideration of their case, etc. I can go on to explain the legalities, I worked with the system, but it will not be persuasive for you, and basically, it's boring.
We know you have Blackwater building a compound near the San Diego border.Who is "you" in that connection, Dee? Blackwater wants to build a center on some California land, but it has no connection to the border or the Border Patrol. As to unmanned aircraft, they have existed for a decade and more now - nothing to do with Blackwater. The Border Patrol has plans to use UAVs(in fact, I think they do now on a trial basis, but I'm not sure,) but so what? It's just another eye in the sky to enable a secure border. We know they have build non-manned aircraft in their center in NC. We know the plans if this bill passes.

Does it surprise you that we know what your plans are? They are, after all, public record.Now coming back around to "dumb,"that statement takes the cake. Of course we know you know the plans - that's what democratic government is about, debating, then doing. Me being here, and NAFBPO's website, are elements in the debate, nothing more. There is no deep, dark conspiracy going on, just people trying to pursue their ideas that run counter to yours. Even my group, not affiliated with the government at all, is completely transparent in what it hopes to accomplish, and why we think it's a good, necessary idea. We can, and have said repeatedly, why we think our ideas will be good for the country. As yet, I have seen nothing from you in that vein. You're against it, but you've never said why. I presume an ethnic sympathy, the title of the blog implies it, but I could be persuaded otherwise.

Kent Lundgren
Chairman
NAFBPO

Dee said...

Kent,
You are like the spoiled little boy whose mother never taught him manners. Name calling is name calling and it is very disrespectful in a civil discussion. I don´t call you a lame brain, John Wayne wannabe, racist nut case, do I? It may be obvious, but it is not polite to call childish names in an adult civil discussion.

What I find interesting is your use of the word “We.” Regardless of what you believe, you do not represent all Americans. The majority of Americans do not want 12M people Mass or Self Deported. They don´t want the negative impact on our economy, as Bernanke says, a Recession or a Depression. Gone is good only in your mind. Most people do want secure borders, employer sanctions and some sensible earned citizenship or Guest Worker program for those here.

Actually Mass – Voluntary deportation is not happening. Read the Census Bureau stats. Additionally, study the impact on cities like Tulsa. Read their OpEd forums and the anguish of the minority citizens being subjected to Racial Profiling. You certainly don´t speak for them.

The other thing you forget dear Kent is you no longer work for the BPs. You retired. You are gone. Period. The end. You are just another citizen, like me.

My Mission:
. To provide a forum where people, both PRO and ANTI, can discuss American Immigration Issues civilly, freely and safely thereby reducing the hate, anger and misunderstandings currently inherent in these discussion.

How will this be Accomplished:
. Create a powerful and influential national blog.
. Communicate and partner with other like minded bloggers to create a National Network.
. Provide an open, unmoderated forum for both PRO and ANTI to civilly discuss their views on Immigration, legal and illegal.
. Provide current news articles from reputable sites that provide fresh-current information about Immigration issues.
. Provide the History of Immigration, the ebbs and flows of Immigration so all people understand how we got to this point.
. Provide a SAFE forum, especially for PROs to read, communicate, learn and feel safe from attack. Let them know and understand it is ok to disagree with others.
. Develop recommendations for Immigration Solutions that both sides can agree upon and communicate them to the media and Congress.

Kent, understand, I am an American. I am a grandmother. I am a Christian. I am Hispanic. I want this world safe for my children and grandchildren. My legacy to them is to teach them to listen, learn, communicate and stand up for their beliefs, just as I do.

Peace be with you Kent.
I hope you continue to read and participate on my blog.

Pilgrim said...

Extract from what Dee said:
What I find interesting is your use of the word “We.” Regardless of what you believe, you do not represent all Americans. The majority of Americans do not want 12M people Mass or Self Deported. They don´t want the negative impact on our economy, as Bernanke says, a Recession or a Depression. Gone is good only in your mind. Most people do want secure borders, employer sanctions and some sensible earned citizenship or Guest Worker program for those here.

Actually Mass – Voluntary deportation is not happening. Read the Census Bureau stats. Additionally, study the impact on cities like Tulsa. Read their OpEd forums and the anguish of the minority citizens being subjected to Racial Profiling. You certainly don´t speak for them.

The other thing you forget dear Kent is you no longer work for the BPs. You retired. You are gone. Period. The end. You are just another citizen, like me.

Kent responds:

Dee, the "we" that I use refers to the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers. I do not presume to speak for the American public. They spoke loud enough for themselves last June.

As to Bernanke's position: if every illegal alien were picked up and shipped in the next twelve months, there might very will be significant economic impact. What we propose will have no such effect because it will take place over a much, much longer period of time. Its gradualness is what recommends it to us - the economy will have time to adjust to their departure, just as the aliens will have time to plan their departure. As to some people wanting a Guest Worker Program and earned citizenship, that may well be so, but Congress didn't notice that last June. I suspect most people don't really care, but I do know this: when you explain to them that there are 14 million Americans out of work and perhaps 12 to 20 million illegal aliens here, their opinions change, just as mine did a year ago. Yes, let's have a temporary worker program, but let's use it to benefit American workers, not foreigners who've broken the law. As I've said before, get them from Michigan, not Michoacan.

As to illegals departing voluntarily - the census bureau cannot report on real-time events. In this case, the Mexican government is reporting it, and they have also noticed a concurrent drop in the amount of money being sent back to Mexico from workers here. In Oklahoma, one concerned group reported that they believed as many as 10,000 illegals had already left the state. Oklahoma will, by the end of next year, note a drop in crime, insurance claims, welfare payouts, and wages will increase. Feel free to check back with me on that next year about this time.

As to the anguish expressed in Oklahoma - the anguish expressed by the illegals concerns me very little - they've had their bite at the apple; now they should go home. The concerns expressed about ethnic issues is typical and overblown - they should relax and enjoy being in the best place on earth they could be. Unless they have an illegal alien relative, there's not going to be any impact on their lives except the beneficial ones mentioned above.

Your comment about me no longer working for the Border Patrol is non-data; that status is clear to everyone here. I don't know why you made it, except for sarcastic effect.

I claim no special privilege (nor could I, even if I were still in the BP), but I do claim special knowledge. It's knowledge that you don't have and that most of the public does not know due to being misled by the Administration and special-interest groups about the subject.

Kent Lundgren
Chairman
NAFBPO

Dee said...

Kent,
The defeat of the last Immigration Reform bill is hardly a vote in your favor. You seem to believe this one vote was a vote favoring your overall xenophobic agenda. It was just a blip in your favor, not the win in the overall racist war you are proposing Your false (OKL) studies tell you what you want them to say. How silly of you to acknowledge them. You may perceive the concern of the Native Americans and Hispanic Americans to be overblown, but in the end, the 2008 vote will tell you how wrong you are.

Mass-Self Deportation, regardless of what you perceive, will have a significant impact on our economy. In location after location where xenophobic laws have been enforced, the cities have gone out of business, now, in most cases, those laws are rescinded.

Imagine the impact if these xenophobic laws were instituted nation wide, especially in lieu of the fact the Boomers are facing retirement.

You may “suspect” most people don´t care about Recession or Depression, especially when most of your supporters are facing retirement within the next few years, but you are wrong. When the rubber meets the road, I trust that the American Public will see the light, as they always have in the past, then they will correct the path they are on and steer towards the light of the American Way!

Good Luck to you Kent. And I hope and pray you see the Light soon! Like every prodigal son, we will welcome you back into the fold.

Pilgrim said...

Dee, discussions like this would be much more productive if you would abandon the use of gratuitously inflammatory terms like "xenophobic" and "Gestapo" and "racist," and the host of constructions you use that are designed to lead the reader to untrue inferences.

For instance, I know what xenophobic means, and that's not what's going on here - it's a loaded term, and that's why you use it. There's neither fear nor dislike of foreigners involved, but rather, a dislike of the demonstrable adverse influences they have had, by their millions, on U.S. society.

To deal with the substance of your response, let me say that the Congressmen and Senators my group has spoken with reported that never in their legislative careers, had the received such a volume of adverse response to proposed legislation as they did to CIR. You should note that it was not a "blip"; the DREAM Act went down to similar defeat. Support for the AgJobs bill is shaky, and SAVE will very likely pass comfortably.

I rely on no false studies from Oklahoma City; there have no studies at all yet, as far as I know. What I referred to was a statement from one Latino group (which one escapes me; it might have been LULAC) that about ten thousand illegal aliens had already left Oklahoma.

"Location after location" numbers about three, I think, where laws have been repealed that dealt with illegal aliens. Laws like that continue to be introduced nation-wide, in response to the adverse impact illegal aliens have. And, if people establish businesses that depend on lawbreakers, then they have no room to whine if they go out of business when the lawbreakers have to go away, be it to jail, or to their home countries.

Again, you've misquoted me, then responded to something I didn't say. I didn't say that I suspect most people don´t care about Recession or Depression. I said that most people don't care one way or the other about a Guest Worker Program or path to citizenship for illegal aliens. But "most people" aside, enough millions do oppose it to bring down the proposal last June.

Truly, I appreciate the kind, closing wish for luck. The anticipation of my return to the fold is misplaced, though, since I am not outside it. Both of us are still, I presume, Americans, although in truth, I never asked you.

Kent

Dee said...

Kent,
I do use my words precisely and accurately. Part of my strategy is to engage people into these discussions on my blog. Obviously the artwork and the words I have chosen drew you into my blog discussion.

As I said, I believe you are misinformed. You believe I am misinformed. We will call even.

Regarding me, my bio does provide a description of me. I was born in Michigan. My father, his and his were all born in our great USA. My family is comprised of hard working, loyal Americans who have good careers and many who have served proudly in the Military.

Take Care Kent. Have a good Evening.

Joseph said...

Your use of the very term "Gestapo" is an outrageous insult to those who survived miraculously the real Geheim-Staatspolizei! Oh if you only knew. If these were really Gestapo tactics in play, there would be no more Spanish spoken north of the Rio Grande.
No culture irrespective of its origins can endure an influx of millions and millions who do not assimilate in language. Imagine 25 million Chinese suddenly taking root in Mexico! Ha!

Dee said...

Joseph,
Hardly outrageous, especially given the fact Blackwater has already taken root in southern CA close to the border anticipating their new role per HR 4088 of militarizing the border.
The heinous detention centers are more evidence of the Gestapo tactics now being imposed. History is recording all of these actions and our children will look back upon these days the same way most of us view the Japanese Internment Camps.

Additionally, you talk as if the 12M arrived overnight. You are wrong. It has taken 20 years for the numbers to accumulate this high. The Latin migrant laborers have crossed the borders for hundreds of years, all at the request of our own Government and Business. I agree we do need to enforce the border and impose employer sanctions. Where we disagree is we need to move the 12M here out of the shadows and into a Guest Worker program. Since many of them did arrive within the last 20 years and all agree it generally takes a generation to assimilate, with education and legal status, they too will assimilate and our borders will be protected.

Fed Up With Racists said...

Wow; there are certainly some very mean-spirited people out there. I guess empathy for immigrants is a bit too old-fashioned for them? On another note, the average American has no idea that it is almost impossible to come here legally. And I hate to point it out but if America doesn't sort out its immigration issues, you're going to have a booming aging population and no younger people to pick up the slack. Let that thought comfort you .

music@saltshaker.us said...

There is one good thing about HR 4088: this bill, created by folks who want you to think there are really 30 million "illegals" out there, if not 300 million, could only justify the figure of ELEVEN million in its official "findings of facts". So now when they inflate the figures we can quote their favorite bill to stop them.

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