Mike Hamilton, the ANTI proprietor of the famous Hamilton Farms billboard along Interstate 5 posted these words:“NO MEXICAN OLYMPIC TEAMS? ALL THE RUNNERS AND SWIMMERS ARE HERE!”
His billboard message does not have all of Lewis County laughing!
Over the years, the outrageous and outspoken owner has used his billboard to air his discontent about everything from politics to homosexuality, now, he is focusing on Race.
Winlock City Council member Eliaci Sanchez who is an American of Mexican descent said he sees the recent missive as a statement on racial discrimination.
“It’s just focusing on those of Mexican descent in our community. This isn´t about illegal immigration as some would have us believe. It is about Mexican Americans in our community. By indicting the Hispanic community this billboard is racial profiling,” Sanchez said.
Hamilton has definitely stirred things up. While residents in the area are well used to the 
political and pointed messages on the billboard - this time people are speaking up. The message seems to be especially painful for the growing Hispanic community in Lewis County. According to the U.S. Census, the population of Hispanic Citizens has doubled from 3,500 to 7,000 living in the area. Many are not laughing at the message.
political and pointed messages on the billboard - this time people are speaking up. The message seems to be especially painful for the growing Hispanic community in Lewis County. According to the U.S. Census, the population of Hispanic Citizens has doubled from 3,500 to 7,000 living in the area. Many are not laughing at the message. "It is very hurtful - I am Hispanic and I'm proud of it and that billboard is really wrong," said Adelina Petersen, resident.
Mike Hamilton, Camas resident and son of the sign’s original keeper Alfred Hamilton, said he should not be criticized for having the gall to take a defined stand on an issue that seems to have no easy solution.
“It DOES target Mexicans because that’s where the humor about immigration is in terms of Lewis County,” Hamilton said. “Am I then racist because I’m willing to speak out against an intense problem we’re having?”
The answer, Mr. Hamilton, is a resounding YES!
Posts
203 comments:
1 – 200 of 203 Newer› Newest»Of course, the assessment of this as racism is pure baloney. It is the only arrow left in the quiver of those who can't stand the truth. The statistics of Mexicans in the area support the central thesis of the billboard.
Criticizing illegal aliens for violating our borders is not racism and never has been. It is a recognition of fact. Illegal aliens are illegal. If you are a citizen of the U.S., the bill board does not apply and should be ignored. However, by supporting those who are illegal the complainants show their true colors. If they support illegal Mexicans, they themselves are guilty of being less than a loyal citizen of the U.S.. Why is this so hard for Mexican Americans to understand? Why are they incapable of loyalty? Why are they incapable of understanding the rule of law as the foundation of all civilized societies? No wonder so many are critical of the Mexican community. They have brought it upon themselves by their disloyalty>
"A piece on the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research website by Michael Barone, a fellow at AEI, says that Bush and the Democrats are "out of line with public opinion" on immigration issues.
A key excerpt:
The reason is that the Democrats--and Bush--are out of line with public opinion on the issue. That became clear as the Senate debated a comprehensive immigration bill in May and June. Most Republicans and many Democrats, in the Senate and among the public, turned against the bill. Supporters of the bill tended to ascribe that to something like racism: they just do not like having so many Mexicans around.
But if you listened to the opponents, you heard something else. They want the current law to be enforced. It bothers them that we have something like twelve million illegal immigrants in our country. It bothers them that most of the southern border is unfenced and unpatrolled. It bothers them that illegal immigrants routinely use forged documents to get jobs--or are given jobs with no documents at all.
You do not have to be a racist to be bothered by such things. You just have to be a citizen who thinks that massive failure to enforce the law is corrosive to society."
The sooner the supporters of illegal aliens stop playing the race card, the sooner we will be able to find solutions.
Ulty, There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Don´t you see what you just did?
We are talking about Mexican Americans and Hispanic Citizens. The rate of CITIZENS who are Hispanic increased.
Your "illegal alien" argument consistently bleeds into attacks on American Citizens who are Hispanic. You refuse to call us Americans. You insist on calling us Mexicans. You insist on creating billboards with Racist statements that you call Humorous.
(You is used metaphorically for the Billboard owner and all ANTIs).
We have close to 50M Hispanic Citizens in our country and you continue to call us all Mexican!
Why don´t you see this?
Unbelievable!!
I took this billboard to ring true
due to the illegal invasion and the number of illegals in this country. I in no way thought this to be displayed by a racist person or a person who is anti-Hispanic American. My impression it
is that it is commenting on the invasion coming in from Mexico. All
loyal Americans of any descent should know that it is refering to the enourmous number of illegal Mexicans slithering across the border.
By Barone´s own statement "You do not have to be a racist to be bothered by such things." You don´t have to be, but the problem is, those that continue to call US Citizens "Mexicans" and refuse to acknowledge our citizenship, our equality in our USA, then, that, my friend, is Racism.
Anon,
Many racists (KKK, Stormfront, Nazi, NSM sites) have picked this up and are blatant in their racist attacks against all Hispanics.
What troubles me is this billboard does not reference illegal immigration. Instead, it references anyone who is Hispanic in the community.
Anon,
Even our middle of the road commentor Ultima says "The statistics of Mexicans in the area support the central thesis of the billboard." Yet the article clearly states the CENSUS Bureau indicated the rate of Hispanic Citizens increased from 3500 to 7000. We are talking CITIZENS.
Hmm, I have often been refered to as being German. What they really mean is that I am from German ancestry. They know my nationality is really American. I take no offense at it because this has been a common practice since this country was founded. It means nothing. Unless some group is trying to play victim and twist it to be taken literally.
Why don't you stop visiting racist websites dee and just stick to debating with those of us who oppose illegal immigration from anywhere because we are for the rule of law? You bitch about Hispanic citizens that you claim are being lumped into one group with illegal aliens and yet you lump us anti's all in with these racist groups. Your hypocricy never ends, does it?
It is obvious that the sign was referring to illegal alien Mexicans because Hispanic citizens are not Mexicans they are Americans. There I just said it dee! Hispanic citizens are Americans and they are!
Pat,
So you understand. In this case, it would be like having a billboard that said you as a German immigrant were a Nazi and a Gestapo and were tainting our American society.
Now do you get it?
The sign was about illegal aliens dee, not Mexican legal immigrants nor Hispanic-American citizens. Why can't you get thru your thick skull?
How does Nazism enter into it if it were German illegal aliens swimming over here? Why would I as a legal American citizen of German ancestry take offense if the word German was substituted for Mexican? I don't stick for illegals just because they are white or are from Germany. That is un-American thinking and racist in nature. In otherwords, I am not an ethnocentric racist like you are. Yes, you once again tested my patience and I am calling a spade a spade with you.
Pat,
Please re read. You are not understanding the rationale nor the written word.
You ANTIs continue to use the term Mexican for ALL Hispanic Citizens in America. (think about this. count to 10. let it sink in. there do you have it now)
In order to change this, you need to understand we are Americans. When you all put up signs like this demeaning ALL Hispanics (citizens)in the area, you are disrepecting us and we do not like it. Until your side understands this, you will never succeed in your argument. Instead you will just anger all minority citizens. And yes, it is ALL minorities. The ethnocentric nature, as we ALL know, is really on YOUR side -- your Northern European ethnocentric side.
Now do you get it? If not, please re read until it does.
Prove that we anti's are using the word Mexican to describe all Hispanic citzens in this country or shut the hell up! I already explained to you that many citizens are described by their ancestry. Many citizens themselves describe themselves by their ancestry. It doesn't mean that we aren't Americans by nationality. What the hell is wrong with you? Get help will you?
You keeping using the word "you" to all anti's, especially when pointing out a fringe group's words or actions. Why do you do that? We aren't all alike and in fact in my prior post I said that Hispanic Americans are citizens, not Mexicans. What is wrong with you? Didn't you read that?
Again, Hispanic citizens didn't swim the Rio Grande to get here for the most part, they came legally. IT IS ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM MEXICO THAT THE SIGN WAS ABOUT. DO YOU GET IT NOW, DEE????
We anti's are not the ones advocating White Europeans to come here illegally but you Hispanics are adovcating it for your ethnic kind. Now which are the ethnocentrics? What is wrong with you? You can't even be civil on Thanksgiving. God help you!
You are in severe Denial if you dispute most ANTIs frequently term Hispanic American citizens as "Mexicans."
You are very predictable and funny Pat.
When you lose an argument, you get angry.
Then you try to shut me up on my own Blog. How Funny!!
Obviously Pat, you did not read this post. I will repeat the key paragraph. Please re read it and let it sink in:
“It’s just focusing on those of Mexican descent in our community. This isn´t about illegal immigration as some would have us believe. It is about Mexican Americans in our community. By indicting the Hispanic community this billboard is racial profiling”
The same goes for those you term "Anchor Babies."
Those Hispanic children are ALL AMERICAN!!!
You are very, very disrespectful when you use this term on citizens!!
There is an old saying, "If the shoe fits...". If you are an American citizen the shoe doesn't fit. The problem is not with the Pro-legals but with the Pro-illegals. The latter thinks one size fits all. When we speak of Mexicans we are either speaking of people of Mexican descent. Within that general category we recognize several sub-classfications: illegal aliens of Mexican descent, legal immigrants and legal permanent residents of Mexican descent, Mexican American citizens, birthright citizens of Mexican descent,and plain old Americans.
In a larger sense, a Mexican is identified by they way he or she acts. If they are loyal,law abiding citizens who support our national sovereignty and national interest and who oppose illegal aliens, they deserve to be recognized as Americans. If they are unassimilated, speak only Spanish, retain dual citizenship and dual allegiance, and are here only by accident of birth, one might still legitimately consider them to be Mexicans because that is the way they act, especially when they fly the Mexican flag.
In other words, there is the formal and legal definition of what is an American based solely on citizenship. On the other hand, there is a sense of what constitutes an American in terms of one's behavior, allegiance and support or nonsupport of the rule of law. If the shoe fits...
"This isn´t about illegal immigration as some would have us believe. It is about Mexican Americans in our community. By indicting the Hispanic community this billboard is racial profiling"
Obviously, Mr. Sanchez has a little difficulty understanding the English language. He is reading far more into this billboard than is justified by the actual language. This is a very basic problem. How can we talk with each other if we don't start taking what is said literally rather than through a glass darkly.
Why isn't Mr. Sanchez able to see the truth in the humorous billboard message. Surely he knows that there are illegal aliens of Mexican descent in this country in very large numbers and surely he knows they run, walk and swim across the border. That is all the sign says. If there is any hidden meaning, it is simply that loyal American citizens regardless of their descent are or should be deeply troubled by the flood of illegals and the instant citizens that result. An interesting question for Mr. Sanchez would be, "How many in the Hispanic community are birthright citizens but whose parents were illegal?" In other words, if the parents had not violated our borders, the children would not be citizens. There is something wrong with that picture.
"According to the U.S. Census, the population of Hispanic Citizens has doubled from 3,500 to 7,000 living in the area. Many are not laughing at the message. "It is very hurtful - I am Hispanic and I'm proud of it and that billboard is really wrong," said Adelina Petersen,"
If the population of Hispanic citizens doubled, it is likely that the population of Hispanic illegals has also doubled or tripled. If these folks are Americans, they should find nothing hurtful in the billboard message. If Adelina is a citizen, then the billboard message does not apply. Why can't citizens see that the word Mexican means Mexican, just as illegal means illegal? Why can't she recognize that many of the so-called citizens don't have the slightest concept of what it means to be a citizen and an American. Hispanics must take the chip off their shoulders and try to see the problem from the point of view of other citizens who resent those who have violated our borders and produced instant citizens as soon as they arrived and now use that as a basis for complaining about those see this illegal - instant citizen connection as a problem.
Nevertheless, the billboard and other mainstream critics of illegal aliens have been careful to not discriminate against Hispanic citizens or include them in their blanket criticism of law breakers and border violators. However, a little introspection on the part of Hispanic Americans would give them a better understanding of where the rest of the American public is coming from. They must understand that any resentment is directed at them only because they support and defend the illegal aliens. That makes them only borderline citizens. If they wish to be accorded full recognition, they must stop supporting illegals and lumping them together with citizens as though there is no difference.
The reaction of the Hispanic community is always predictable. They always try to de-legitimize any criticism of illegal aliens and their fellow travelers by claiming the criticism is inappropriately directed at the Hispanic community at large rather than just at the illegals and those who support and defend them.
If the shoe fits...
We could all find something very special to be thankful for today if Hispanic citizens would stand up for America rather than for the illegals,if they would make clear that they are intensely opposed to border violations and that they support vigorous internal enforcement so that the number of illegals in this country can be dramatically reduced in an orderly and systematic process. That would be a welcome development. If support of the illegals continues, Hispanics will deserve whatever criticism or discontent they fall victim of.
"What troubles me is this billboard does not reference illegal immigration. Instead, it references anyone who is Hispanic in the community."
Actually no. It does no such thing.
Read it again. It speaks only of Mexicans. It does not use the word Hispanic. If folks think of themselves as Mexican rather than Americans, then I guess it applies to them in some sense but otherwise it applies only to Mexican nationals, no one else.
Try reading literally and you will find less to carp about.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
Amen. As I say try reading these things literally rather than with your usual overwhelming bias that causes you to misread and misinterpret so many things.
Dee...why do you call yourself a Mexican American? Why not just American? I'm of 100% Norwegian blood and have never called myself a Norwegian American.
Also, are you celebrating Thanksgiving today as an American holiday of which you are a part?
Just curious.
"We are talking about Mexican Americans and Hispanic Citizens. The rate of CITIZENS who are Hispanic increased."
Where there is smoke, there is fire. Want to bet that there was an increase in the illegal population as well?
"Your "illegal alien" argument consistently bleeds into attacks on American Citizens who are Hispanic. You refuse to call us Americans. You insist on calling us Mexicans. You insist on creating billboards with Racist statements that you call Humorous."
This is a huge problem when two intelligent people read the same information and draw opposite conclusions. I would like to call you an American and I would like you to act like one and stop your support of illegals.
The billboard is not racist. It has stated the simple fact that many illegal aliens have entered the community, with a little added humor. It doesn't even insult those who are illegal. The reaction to the billboard shows a remarkable lack of a sense of humor.
I did err in my first comment in referring to "statistics of Mexicans". That was simply a flaw in my memory of what was said in the article. Nevertheless, as I have pointed out, if there was that much growth in the Hispanic citizen population, one can rest assure that there has also been an increase in the illegal population and in fact, probably much of the citizen growth is due to children of illegals. So my comment, in its essence, was not off base.
"You insist on creating billboards with Racist statements that you call Humorous."
racist: One who has an excessive and irrational belief in or advocacy of the superiority of a given group, people,or nation, usually one's own, on the basis of racial differences having no scientific validity.
Does the sign say Americans are superior to Mexicans? No it doesn't. It simply makes the point that there is a flood of illegals into America. It makes no statement about their intelligence or other qualities.
Try sticking with the facts when you are trying to make a point. Distortions are rejected out of hand. The billboard is not racist. It may be nationalistic in the sense of national sovereignty and the national interest.
Dee, you just don't get it, do you?
Ulty,
Your definition of “Mexican” which comprises the list you provided pretty much confirms what I said about your ANTI definition. However, as all Latin OTMs will agree, you include them into the mix as well.
I do not buy into allowing ANTIs to use their judgement to determine who is “loyal, law abiding citizens who support national sovereignty and national interest and who oppose illegal aliens,” or your ANTI judgement regarding who is or who is not “assimilated.”
By your ANTI definition, we would have to be the monolithic, one language, blindly following zombies who hang out in their pajamas in their closets typing on their desktops in order to qualify.
No Thanks!
I prefer, as most PROs live by this definition: “What constitutes an American? Not color nor race nor religion. Not the pedigree of his family nor the place of his birth. Not the coincidence of his citizenship. Not his social status nor his bank account. Not his trade nor his profession.
An American is one who loves justice and believes in the dignity of man. An American is one who will fight for his freedom and that of his neighbor. An American is one who will sacrifice prosperity, ease and security in order that he and his children may retain the rights of free men.”
Ultima,
By your very own statement, you confirmed what Mr. Sanchez read as well as any other reader of that heinous billboard.
The facts are, the Census Bureau reported the rate of Hispanic citizens in that county went from 3500 to 7000. This is what the billboard was referencing. The increased rate of Hispanics in the county. ANTI Hamilton confirmed this. He is talking about citizens saying they are comprised of wetbacks (swimmers) and desert crossers (runners). You know this. It is very disrepectful!
Diane, I explain the use of this term in my bio and in my book. I use it for all ANTIs so they will know I am an American Hispanic who is discussing the Immigration issues civilly with them on my blog.
I can elaborate, but it is a better (and longer) read in my book. (see side panel for link to it)
Thanksgiving Celebration: I believe Thanksgiving is the Best Family Holiday. We are having dinner about 4. Turkey´s in the oven. Hubby and sons are watching football. They love the Lions!! We are from Michigan.
As anyone knows who has followed my blog, I am a proud American of Hispanic Descent. My father, his and his were all born in our great country. We believe and are thankful for the American Dream. We (our family) has contributed to our country in times of war and peace.
An American stands up for his country first and foremost! That's
definetly not you dee.
Ulty,
I read a blog today by a young mother. She is American of Mexican descent. She wrote about attending a family reunion in New Mexico and how she is in fear of driving across state lines from the Midwest because of all the racial profiling which is going on. She doesn´t want her children to be victims.
Don´t kid yourself Ulty. The angry reaction you ANTIs and your leaders are having and its related racial profiling implications are impacting all 50M Hispanic citizens in this country and anyone who is a minority or “Hispanic looking.”
We feel it!
You know it!
That mother has nothing to fear. Carry an ID just like everyone else does. If she is stopped, show her ID and cuss under her breath about the illegal Mexican invasion that caused her to be stopped. In addition, your father was born in the US, your mother was not according to you. Maybe that is why you have as much loyalty to Mexico as you say you do to the US.
If you were not of Mexican descent,
you would not be standing up for all the illegals. That's a fact.
Anon, The reason I have a blog and am active on the Internet is because I do stand up for our country, first and foremost and I am a very loyal American.
I believe in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. I study the current Immigration discussions and the views of both the ANTIs and the PROs.
I am a grandmother. I Christian. My family has been here for generations.
I have never been active on an issue before this one. I see so much red faced anger, hate, racism and xenophobia on internet discussions.
I am here to discuss the issue at length, civilly, as is the American Way!
The bottom line is, I love our great USA and I care!
Anon, I am a PRO because I have studied the History of Immigration and, I have lived it. While I, my father his and his were all born in our great USA, my father was a troquero and a migrant laborer, as many American citizens of Hispanic descent have been. I worked as a migrant worker as a child. My father brought us to Michigan and worked in an auto factory so we, his children, could achieve the American Dream.
Have you studied the history of Immigration? This is not a new issue. Study the Immigration Act of 1924. For over a hundred years, we have never had any serious limits on immigration from latin countries nor any enforcement of immigration laws. It is the migrant workers and many minorities (African Americans, Asian, Native American) who have performed the manual labor in the building of our nation.
The employers from our USA have been reaping the labor from south of the border, at will, for over a hundred years. Why do you think we have so many illegal immigrants here? Because they were employed and brought here, given papers and employed.
It is only recently we are facing all of this activism against the migrant laborers.
I ask that you study the issues and know our own country´s history. We as a nation should work together in establishing Comprehensive Immigration Reform.
Anon,
My mother was born in Texas. Where on this glorious earth did you derive "your mother was not according to you."
See how you and people like racist Sheriff Arpaio jump to conclusions?
Deplorable!!
Shame on you!!
earlier post by on matt.org you said she was born in Mexico and also stated that she does not speak Englsh.
"The bottom line is, I love our great USA and I care!"
That's what is puzzling to us. If you love our great USA and care, then you would be looking at this problem from that point of view rather than from the point of view of the illegals. You can't just say, "I care." You have to do something to demonstrate that you care about your country instead of illegal aliens and their governments.
History sometimes is prologue and sometimes if we don't learn something from history we are doomed to repeat it. We took advantage of cheap labor from Africa and South of the Border. It will take the commitment of all Americans who care to stop that travesty. We also continue to buy products produced in sweatshops South of the Border and in Asia. China just loves banking our money and putting our country in desperate financial straits as Lupita as pointed out to us from time to time.
"The reason I have a blog and am active on the Internet is because I do stand up for our country, first and foremost and I am a very loyal American."
You certainly have a funny way of showing it. Admittedly there are among the Pro-legals extremists. Now that we all know that from your posts and from many other sources it is time for us to see more on your blog that shows you are standing up for our country not only against those extremists but those on the other side of the argument as well. Your consistent bias is to post about the Pro-legals as inhuman monsters. It's time for you to research the extremists on the other side, report what they are saying, and heap on them the same amount of criticism you do on the pro-legals. Now that would be standing up for our country -- socking it to all of the extremists on both sides and some of those on the fringe. Why don't you investigate what La Raza is up to, why don't you admit the charter of MEChA is seditious and disloyal? Until you do your claims of being a loyal American and standing up for America lacks credibility. Instead it seems to demonstrate the same kind of racism that you like to pin on the pro-legals. At least our title, pro-legals, sounds more like we are loyal Americans. I can't say as much for the pro-illegals title. Do you see the problem here?
"However, as all Latin OTMs will agree, you include them into the mix as well."
Yes, you are right. This is just a matter of convenience which I admit is an imprecise description. It is not designed to insult anyone. Somehow Latin Americans or Hispanics doesn't quite capture the essence of the flood of mostly Mexicans we are contending with.
Similarly was imprecise of me to lump together illegal aliens of Mexican descent, legal immigrants and their fellow travelers within the Hispanic community, legal permanent residents of Mexican descent, Mexican American citizens, birthright citizens of Mexican descent,and plain old Americans. It was imprecise but because it represented an attempt to show that there are various degrees of citizenship and loyalties as well as other differences within the Hispanic community. Without getting to complicated or into lengthy descriptions of all of the nationalities that might be represented, Mexican is a simple but imprecise word for some of them. Citizenship is only one element of the picture. If one's leanings are toward the illegals, one has in some ways compromised his or her claim to the title American. At least that is my view and I suspect I sometimes get carried away with that line of reasoning without intending to impugn the loyalty of all of those with whom I disagree with regard to the solution to our present immigration crisis. I do however feel strongly that all who claim to be Americans must stop interpreting everything they read that is critical of illegals is basically racist. I assure you there is another and completely legitimate point of view.
"By indicting the Hispanic community this billboard is racial profiling”
Show me anywhere on the billboard where the entire Hispanic community is being indicted. Once you realize the idea of an indictment is a figment of your imagination, then you will be able to apologize for calling this anti-illegal billboard racist. The fact is that most of the illegals in that area are Mexicans, not all but most. Those who take issue with this simply put themselves in the position of being criticized as fellow travelers with these illegals.
"You ANTIs continue to use the term Mexican for ALL Hispanic Citizens in America. (think about this. count to 10. let it sink in. there do you have it now)"
Wrongo! When we use the term Mexican we refer to those illegals of Mexican descent and their fellow travelers who compromise their credentials as Americans by being illegal-sympathizers and by retaining some form of dual allegiance or dual citizenship. This is a fairly simple concept: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In this case walking like a duck means supporting the illegals and quacking like a duck means speaking out for these foreigners instead of for their own country and its best interests. Those who behave in this fashion have compromised their status as Americans and hence some would lump them with the Mexican illegals and the birthright children of illegals.
"those that continue to call US Citizens "Mexicans" and refuse to acknowledge our citizenship, our equality in our USA, then, that, my friend, is Racism."
This is clearly a delicate issue. Perhaps part of the problem is that some US citizens still don't understand what that means. That's the problem with birthright citizenship. It leaves the child with little appreciation and understanding of what citizenship means and how that concept is incompatible with support of any kind for illegal aliens.
What it is not is racism!!
"he wrote about attending a family reunion in New Mexico and how she is in fear of driving across state lines from the Midwest because of all the racial profiling which is going on. She doesn´t want her children to be victims."
Victimolgy 1A: You are not victimized unless something really happens to you, not just if you are stopped by courteous patrolman. You know few state and local cops are paying any attention to this. Probably less so than the southern states cops who set up speed traps and shake down anyone who happens to pass through their jurisdiction.
She has nothing to worry about. If she is concerned, she should just carry all of her pertinent documents with her, her drivers license of course , her insurance card, her birth certificate. Surely she could have copies made of these documents to carry in her purse. This is step we all take when we are in a foreign country why not in our own if we are concerned about this?
Don´t kid yourself, Dee. The angry reaction you pro-illegals and your leaders are having and its related implications are impacting all 250M other US citizens in this country and you are completely oblivious to it or you have no regard for their feelings.
We see that as a form of disloyalty or dual allegiance with America in a distant second place!
You know it and by now you should understand it!
Ulty,
What is amazing to me is you believe your ANTI perspective is the only perspective and anyone who disagrees with you is disloyal. That is absolutely ridiculous.
I believe my perspective is the the right perspective, however, I understand you may disagree and I respect your right to disagree.
As I have said Ulty, I agree the current status quo must change. We have gone far too long with the employers exploiting the workers. We do need to secure the borders, legalize those here (Guest Worker status) and sanction the employers who continue to hire and exploit illegal workers.
Still claiming RACE as a problem. This joke is as old as I am.
The only person making this into a racial tone again, is Dee. The immigration debate is not about race, its about the American Citizen Worker and their RIGHTS.
To quote Willis from the Borjas Blog:
Dee
I don't think you are evil, don't think you are stupid in all matters, but certainly you are lying on this forum. I want to believe that you are lying to yourself, so i will try to treat you as if you are lying to yourself. It would be too unpleasant to think that you know the truth and are simply lying to us
It is obvious to everyone here that there is a direct conflict of interest between the poor oppressed, fine upstanding Mexicans making a dollar a day living in the South of Mexico, and the cousins of those same Mexicans who are US Citizens living in the US.
If all the illegals now living the the US were forbidden to get jobs in the US, many of the illegals now in the US would go home to Southern Mexico. That would push down wages even more for the fine upstanding folks now living in South Mexico. The people of Southern Mexico would see lower wages, and that is sad
However, the resulting labor shortage in the USA would be a bonanza for people of Mexican descent who are unskilled and living in the US right now. The wages of unskilled citizens would go up. janitors, dishwashers, chicken pluckers would all see higher wages.
Dee, in your heart you know this to be true. Everyone has to take a side - if you were honest, and you admitted that you don't care about unskilled US citizens, that you KNOW their wages will go up due to forbidding illegals to work in the US but that you just don't care - well if you were honest you would be deserving of respect
Dee,
look yourself in the mirror. Up to now you have made a choice to stab in the back the unskilled workers of Mexican descent who are US citizens. Everything you have written has been in support of allowing competition for the Mexicans who are US citizens
as the data comes in of higher wages for the unskilled citizens in Arizona as illegals leave the state this reality will become harder and harder for you to ignore.
Dee,
As long as you are honest you deserve respect.
But if you pretend that the laws in Arizona don't increase wages for unskilled CITIZENS living in Arizona, you are not being honest.
The Democrats use to be for the blue collar working citizen, my how they have changed. Maybe they should go back to what they use to be instead of trying to become something they are not. Congressman Shuler seems to be the Democrat leading the charge, to bad there aren't many more like him. The SAVE Act is some of the Democrats salvation.
"legalize those here (Guest Worker status"
Why don't you list all the reasons why we should and then list all the reasons why we shouldn't?
"anyone who disagrees with you is disloyal."
It is not because they disagree with me that I consider them disloyal. It is because the position they take giving precedence to illegals over the feelings of their fellow citizens, over our national interest and national sovereignty is one definition of disloyalty. I am surprised you don't understand that.
Ulty, You are losing it. Your side has not given an inch, why would I even consider going to your side. In fact, with each perceived victory (CIR bill defeat) your side becomes even more extreme.
As I have shared many times, both the pro side and the anti side are comprised of a strange mix of bedfellows. I have indicted many on the PRO side. ex: unscrupulous emplyers. ex: the administration.
You fail to see the impact your false arguments (every CIR bill is amnesty, mass deport 12M, reinstitute operation wetback-racial profiling, continued use of racist terms eg. mexifornia, this billboard, etc.) have on the 50M hispanic citizens. You fail to see the impact. If you ever, ever get it, then maybe you will apologize. Your side needs to. We are waiting for you to see the error of your ways.
Additionally, you do not have 250M on your side. We have 50M hispanic citizens. You have maybe 50M who happen to be good with mass faxes & emails and are good followers to your leaders´ messages.
There are 200M who do NOT want mass deportation of 12M people nor negative impact on the economy. Your side and the Administration are scaring them to death and therefore they are believing some of your rhetoric right now.
But the tide will turn as it always does in our country with the xenophobic fear mongering is understood for what it is. Then they will come over to our side again, as they did after the attacks on the Irish, German, Italians. As they did after the Trail of Tears. After they did after the Japanese internments. As they did after McCarthyism. As they did after Operation Wetback. As they did after Nixon and Watergate.
History has a way of repeating itself. The pendulum swings. Sense, logic and humanity will come back to the majority of the American people. Hopefully by November 2008.
Liquid,
I see you follow me around other sites. I have been busy this week so I didn´t go back to Borjas. I guess I will tonight and go talk to Willis for a while.
Shuler is a dog.. a blue dog. He is very similar to Byrd. Another dog!
There are actually only 43M Hispanics according to the Census Bureau. Please don't over inflate your numbers with the "Illegals" included, unless we too get to inflate the numbers and say that there are 20 - 30 M 'Illegal Immigrants' in this country.
Actually, I have been in LA all week, Disneyland. I happened to be reading some of what I missed over the past few days and thought that Willis, Mik, Flinchum, and others pretty much covered the entire spectrum of the ideals of some of us very well.
"Sense, logic and humanity will come back to the majority of the American people. Hopefully by November 2008."
Does that include the Hispanic Americans? Surely you are not saying only those who agree with you have sense, logic and humanity on their side. I think your excessive loyalty and compassion for your treasured community of illegals has colored your thinking.
Maybe we should have a rule that any persons from abroad who wish to be allowed a pathway to permanent residency or citizenship need to prove that their mother tongue is English.
There is no folly more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. -- Winston Churchill. I read this to mean it is those who are bent on compassion for foreigners and whose humanity is directed in favor of illegal aliens rather than their own fellow citizens are guilty of intolerant idealism.
"good followers to your leaders´ messages." Like our fearless leader W.???
"scaring them to death and therefore they are believing some of your rhetoric right now."
And well they should, as you should, if you have any regard for the welfare of this country and for the preservation of the good life you enjoy. I guess you don't mind that part of that good life is built on the backs of the illegal manual laborers you like to extoll otherwise.
"I have indicted many on the PRO side. ex: unscrupulous emplyers. ex: the administration."
Those are not the ones I am concerned about. They are not of your ilk. Show me the balance in your criticisms where I see some Hispanic organizations.
"You fail to see the impact your false arguments (every CIR bill is amnesty, mass deport 12M, reinstitute operation wetback-racial profiling, continued use of racist terms eg. mexifornia, this billboard, etc.) have on the 50M hispanic citizens. You fail to see the impact. If you ever, ever get it, then maybe you will apologize. Your side needs to. We are waiting for you to see the error of your ways."
It'a two way street, my friend. I have tried on numerous occasions to explain to you the common definition of amnesty, why Mexifornia is just a fact of life which has occurred with your encouragement, operation wetback is no more that the orderly and systematic repatriation of illegal aliens, etc. Why does any of this adversely impact Hispanic Americans except those who wish for Mexico Norte?
Like your leaders:
Tanton and his godson Beck.
MM Leaders: Simcox, Gilchrist
Politicos: Tancredo, R.Paul
Media Pundits and Shock Jocks: Dobbs, Buchanan, Beck, Limbaugh, etc to yechhhh
Ulty, You remind me of the playground bully. Do everything I say or else.
As I have said a thousand times, both sides agree on secure borders and employer sanctions.
Where we disagree is the 12M here.
If you guys would be willing to compromise on this one issue, we could work a solution. But your side is unwilling to compromise. You are the playground bully.
And yes, your leaders are scary bullies like the scary Sheriff or the nutty Simcox & Gilchrist.
Ulty,
You forgot the letter "s" for "silk."
Ulty, You refuse to acknowledge Racial Profiling or the impact on the 50M Hispanics in our country. I´ve explained it many times. You just choose not to listen, my friend.
Ultima, liquid you can't rationalize with an irrational person with an agenda. In dee's case it borders on psychotic, dishonesty, some sort of mental block and hatred turned inward.
I have a friend that has a degree in psychology and we had a chat yesterday. I described her constant repeating of things also even though explanations are given to her and all of the rest of her weird behavior and he gave me the psychiatric terms for them but I can't even spell them, lol. It is hopeless guys unless she gets help.
Pat, Your endless name calling is getting tiring. This tact is used by those with no solid argument.
Please use civil discussion and a rationale perspective. Stop your ludicrous name calling.
Whats up with the MexicaMovement chopped video you are posting on your home page..... Nothing like taking phrases out of context to CREATE a facade of ignorance on MexicaMovements behalf. And you are condoning it, when will you realize it is not about RACE its about jobs and the American Citizens.
What is interesting is the number of responses on the racism topic vs the Minutemen topic.
You refuse to say one word about Simcox, Gilchrist or Schwilk and all of their felonious scamming. You do not chastise them nor ask for further investigation for their wrongdoings. What about Sheriff Arpaio? His affiliation with racist groups (KKK, Aryan Nation) is well known and will soon be published in SPLC. Gilchris´t´s advocation of violence has already been published. Yet not one peep about them from any of you.
We PROs know the true agenda of the ANTIs. It is spelled out on the billboard. It is in Beck´s gumballs. Your wish is to reduce the number of Hispanic citizens in our country.
Guess What. It will not happen.
Dee,
Your blog is awesome! I will pass it on to people concerned about this issue in Lansing.
By the way, I posted about the No Borders camp and the border patrol beating nonviolent protesters. Check it out.
www.workingforjustice.blogspot.com
In solidarity,
Chris
Did you all see what Great Britain has decided to do about their illegal immigration problem? Huge fines and jail time against employers hiring them. And France, they have set a quota for deporting illegals.
And, in regard to this blog, Dee, are you saying we should take in illegals from all across the world? Any? Or just the Mexicans who are already here illegally?
I should buy your book and read your point of view..I'll put it on my Christmas list.
Off to the movies. will check in later.
Chris,
Thank you. I like your blog as well. I will put your blog on my blogs list.
I think it is important we link our blogs together across the nation.
You and I both agree it is important to keep the discussion open and civil across all perspectives.
Come back often and feel free to reference any of my posts.
Dianne, Hope you see a good movie today. Wish I could go too but I am watching my g-babies for a few hours today and I don´t dare venture to the stores or malls. Too hectic.
As I have mentioned, I do not advocate open borders. I advocate secure borders, and I believe in employer sanctions particularly to those that exploit workers. My dander gets up when I hear of those employers, like Insolia from New Bedford, who brought in workers from war torn Central American countries, gave them false papers and then exploited them so much with not only low pay, but no overtime, no breaks and unsafe working conditions. Some reports said he tied people to their workstations. He has not served one day in jail although the workers (who reported him for his abusive tactics) were swept away to TX to the deplorable detention centers.
What I also advocate is for those 12M here who meet certain criteria (felony free, contributing) that they be allowed to register, initially as guest workers and ultimately have an opportunity for a path to citizenship. It is only when we bring them out of the shadows that the exploitation will stop.
This seems so logical vs the SAVE Act which calls for mass deportation of 12 - 20M (with children) people within 4 years. This is larger than the population of NY. The plan is to have Operation Wet back reinstated with Gestapo type Contractors (e.g. Blackwater). And Additional owned private prison detention centers - again owned by RNC Cronies.
Liquid, I would respond "What is up with Herr Sheriff Arpaio and his affiliation with the KKK and the Aryan Nation?" He is in trouble in his own town right now because he tried to obtain the names and addresses of commentors of the Phoenix News. What a little dictator!
"It is spelled out on the billboard. It is in Beck´s gumballs. Your wish is to reduce the number of Hispanic citizens in our country.
Guess What. It will not happen."
More of your usual distortions. The billboard was about Mexicans -- illegal aliens -- not racism. It was about saving our country. Too bad you are unable to see any point of view but your own.
The gumball video was about excessive population growth. It is valid regardless of the source of that growth and is backed up by scholarly studies like those of Joel Cohen. It just happens that all of the population growth in this country is due to legal immigrants, illegal aliens, their progeny and their higher fertility rates. It might interest you to know that Muslims and Asians have higher fertility rates as well as Mexicans.
As long as you choose to interpret these events in racial terms, there is no hope for understanding or solutions, especially as you continue to boast that "Guess What. It will not happen." Welcome to Mexico Norte, courtesy of DEE and her crowd of dissident, disloyal illegal sympathizers.
How many times must we tell her that it is not about American citizens but she keeps bringing up this red herring.
Sure we are against the abuses of the 14th amendment and we all recognize that those abuses are committed by OTMs as well as Hispanic illegals.
It is a sad day when folks don't even find the term Pro-illegal distasteful. It shows what kind of people they really are. It is not about humaneness or compassion; it is about a disregard for national unity, sovereignty and the national interest. It is about the utter lack of appreciation for the rule of law, the foundation of all civilized societies. Good luck with that misbegotten point of view.
Dee said...
Liquid, I would respond "What is up with Herr Sheriff Arpaio and his affiliation with the KKK and the Aryan Nation?" He is in trouble in his own town right now because he tried to obtain the names and addresses of commentors of the Phoenix News. What a little dictator!
Are you talking about his remarks?? or are you stating that he is a member of the KKK?? If it is the latter, please provide proof of him belonging to either the KKK or the Aryan Nation. Otherwise, "let me dumb this down for you" about his remarks...
"What I'm trying to say is it's an honor to enforce the law, so when they blast me it doesn't bother me. It makes them look stupid," he said.
While it's not an honor to be compared to a Nazi or a Klansman, it is an honor that his critics have stooped to name-calling because he's been so effective in combating illegal immigration.
Recently, some groups have accused the sheriff of being a racist, a charge he says is unfair and dismisses as cheap political tactics. Last summer a doctored picture of Arpaio in a Klansman outfit standing in front of a burning cross was circulated on the Internet. Under the picture the caption read: "Found guilty for doing the jobs Nobody wants. Arpaio New Political Career KKK."
Elias Bermudez of Immigrants without Borders received it as an e-mail and then forwarded it on to others saying he agreed with its sentiments, according to published reports.
Arpaio immediately condemned the picture and Bermudez for sending it.
Where does it say Illegal Aliens Ulty? It doesn´t. Even the billboard owner said Immigration and NOT ILLEEEEEEEEEEGAL!!
Beck´s Gumballs Valid? Hah! Read this:
Besides anti-immigration projects, the Pioneer Fund has also used its money for eugenic research. Eugenics is defined as "the study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding." New York millionaires created the Pioneer Fund "and charged it with backing research in heredity, eugenics and ''race betterment.'' (Phoenix New Times, Jingo All the Way, December 25, 1997)
When questioned about Pioneer Fund contributions, Tanton "claimed ignorant about the Pioneer Fund's connection to numerous researchers seemingly intent on proving the inferiority of blacks, as well as its unsavory ties to Nazism. Among materials published by Tanton's Social Contract Press include the video Immigration by the Numbers, by Roy Beck, the executive director of NumbersUSA. (Phoenix New Times, Jingo All the Way, December 25, 1997) "
"You refuse to say one word about Simcox, Gilchrist or Schwilk and all of their felonious scamming. You do not chastise them nor ask for further investigation for their wrongdoings."
No need to say anything. You have said it all about Simcox,et. al. and we are just as interested as you are in rooting out those who give the pro-legal movement a bad name. Too bad you don't take the same attitude toward all the bad apples in your pro-illegal organizations. We are waiting for the quid pro quo about the Brown Berets, La Raza, LULAC, the Aztlanistas, the MEChAnistas, Augustin Cebada,Richard Alatorre, Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, Art Torres,Gloria Molina,Mario Obledo, Jose Pescador Osuna, and Professor Fernando Guerra and all of your leaders who talk and act like Mexicans whether or not they are citizens. They make my point in that regard better than I can. Of course, that is like water off a duck's back for those so deep in denial.
Re: Sheriff Joe, I haven't seen any posts by you that document his membership in extremist organizations. As far as I know he is a no nonsense sheriff in Maricopa County, Arizona who keeps getting re-elected. He is the one who puts prisoners up in tent cities in the desert and feeds them balogna sandwiches -- explaining that if tents in the desert are good enough for our heroic armed forces than they certainly are for criminals. In comparison with Mexican prisons, Sheriff Joe's operation is a walk in the park.
Liquid (Low IQ Guy),
As you often say, “Let me dumb this down for you.” I said “Affiliation!” And I said, “the SPLC is coming out with its report soon.” Don´t worry. When they finish, I will publish it here!
Additionally, you did not mention the fact that he is in trouble now for trying to get the names and addresses of commentors on Phoenix News on-line. He is a horrible little dictator and there are a number of blogs out there who discuss his tactics. Just do a Blog Search.
Shame on him!
"Your side has not given an inch, why would I even consider going to your side."
Perhaps because we are right and because we give precedence to loyalty to our country, our national sovereignty, our national interest. Seems like really good reasons for you to consider joining us in promoting the interests of our country rather than the interests of foreigners and their governments. You see it is quite easy to see why you and all Americans should be on our side of the issue instead of on the side of the illegals and those who hire them.
Ulty, You call your perspective “Loyalty to our country.” I call it “judgemental my way or hit the highway of mass deportation at any cost to our economy and country.”
I believe most Americans who are leaning your way will come to their senses once more people become educated on the History of Immigration, the details of the SAVE Act including your intent of Mass Deportation, RNC Crony private cops and private prisons, and the truth about the ANTI leaders and groups, including the Minutemen, John Tanton and his godson Roy Beck.
The word is getting out. More and more people are getting involved. The American Public will know the Truth!
"Where does it say Illegal Aliens Ulty? It doesn´t. Even the billboard owner said Immigration and NOT ILLEEEEEEEEEEGAL!!"
You are right. It doesn't say illegals nor does it say Hispanic citizens. It says "Mexicans". Now if you are a Mexican national I guess the humor in the billboard is directed at you. After all usually an Olympic team is made up mostly of a country's own citizens not those of another country. So the question becomes what is the most logical and literal interpretation of the word "Mexican"? I say it is illegal aliens of Mexican or even Hispanic descent. It would be quite a stretch to interpret it any other way. You tend to think of the term Mexican as applying to everyone of Mexican descent regardless of their immigration status. Of course, it doesn't, just as teh term "Danish" doesn't apply to me; but if the shoe fits ..., if you choose to be considered a Mexican regardless of your citizenship then of course there is nothing I can do about it. If you have Mexican leanings, support Mexican illegals , etc. then you are approaching Never Never Land and we are not sure what you are. It often doesn't sound like what many of us would think of as a loyal American citizen.
Believe it or not there can be a way forward to compromise without having to blatantly take the part of the illegals. Once you do that compromise is impossible and you should register as an agent of a foreign power. We all have to start from the same point: what is best for our country; what will preserve our national sovereignty; what will create the necessary disincentives to more border violations; what is in the national interest; what will further the rule of law; what places a proper value on citizenship; what constitutes loyalty? To achieve credibility as a citizen one must start from there not from the point of view of illegal aliens and their supporters. The latter is a non- starter.
Ulty, Do you have your skis on? You are such a master of the slippery slope argument.
Take this sentence of yours "So the question becomes what is the most logical and literal interpretation of the word "Mexican"? I SAY it is illegal aliens of Mexican or even Hispanic descent. It would be quite a stretch to interpret it any other way." Gosh... this sentence takes such leaps.
First of all, you and I both know throughout the history of Immigration, Anglos have always called us (American citizens who are Hispanics) Mexican. I write about this in my book. Í have posted this countless times. You do it every day yourself. Come on Ulty. Admit it. Tell the truth!
And for the billboard owner, I can just see that billboard owner yucking it up with his cohorts, pokin em in the ribs and saying, "All them Mexicans swam here or ran across the desert. Yuck Yuck Yuck" referencing the population grown of American Citizens who are Hispanic from 3500 to 7000. "Yuck Yuck Yuck. This´ll show them dern Mexkins!"
Yup! That´s how it went!
Everyone in town knew it. That´s why they are commenting! That is why they were offended.
All very, very obvious!
We know the cards they are playin and its not Texas Holdem! (except when they do sweeps of dem der illeeeegals!)
"charged it with backing research in heredity, eugenics and ''race betterment."
I realize that eugenics or social Darwinism as someone called it has been in ill-repute since the heyday of Hitler's master race ideology. But in a larger sense who can be opposed to the betterment of the human race? A lot of stem cell research is aimed at precisely that.
There was a recent program on PBS regarding research which related certain ailments of grandchildren were traceable to the economic conditions of the grandparents. It was a program called "Ghosts in your Cells" and according to some is the most outstanding discovery of our time. It resulted in the idea of an epigenome, something that wraps around the genome that explains things not explicable solely on the basis of the genome itself.
There have been numerous studies by eminent scholars regarding racial differences but they were not politically correct so no one wanted to read them or hear about them -- at attitude out of the middle ages.
We can't do anything about things we don't understand. We should never foreclose research possibilities simply because they are not PC. The results might indeed be a betterment of mankind.
One thing we already know empirically is that Blacks are better athletes than Whites (White Guys Can't Jump!)and probably on average have better rhythm. If one accepts that, why isn't it logical to try to understand why? If Jews and some Asians have higher IQs than the rest of us on average, why shouldn't we be interested in learning if there is a reason in the genome, diet, or epigenome that explains this. Seems like a fertile field for research.
There is also a certain amount of eugenics inherent in human behavior. Sometimes it is misdirected but how often do you see women who prefer dangerous and exciting men to the staid family man? How often do we choose candidates for president based on their charisma, beauty, etc. rather than an objective evaluation of their platforms, experience and abilities? How often does marriage result from mere physical attraction? Beneath it all is the question of eugenics. After all you don't really think Michael Douglas married Zeta Jones because she was a nice wealthy Jewish girl, do you? Was this eugenics in action?
Dee says: I said “Affiliation!"
"Guilty by Association" again, Dee, all about Race/Ethnicity, so I'll play.
From Matt:
Population Data has been taken from the United States Census of 2001, and by the United Nations Population Database. All Data can be verified.
2002 Current Populations -
World Population 6.4 Billion
Total US Population = 284, 796,887
US Racial Percentage Population = 69% White to 31% non-white
Total White US Population = 196, 509,852
Total European Population = 720, 304,000
Total Canada Population = 32, 007,000
Total Australian Population = 20, 110,000
Total World White Population = 968, 930,852
Total White World Population percentage is 12%
Lets make it about race and the preserving of a space on this earth for our homogeneous ethnic/racial people. Whites are 10% of the world population. We are entitled to a space just for ourselves as much as any other people on earth. We are as entitled to preserve our racial identity as any exotic population that you would instantly grant such a right, such as all the peoples of Mexico and South America. The issue is preservation of our ethnic identity as a people.
I knocked off 2% for the last 6 years (decline of race/ethnicity), but we can go with the 12%, doesn't really matter.
"You fail to see the impact your false arguments (every CIR bill is amnesty, mass deport 12M, reinstitute operation wetback-racial profiling, continued use of racist terms eg. mexifornia, this billboard, etc.) have on the 50M hispanic citizens. You fail to see the impact. If you ever, ever get it, then maybe you will apologize."
If you are right, I would certainly apologize. But I suspect that by the time you see that I was right all along, it will be way too late and our doom will be sealed so to speak.
I really don't get it but perhaps I should because I can see that you fail to understand the negative impact of illegals and their supporters on other Americans. That being the case, I guess I should be able to conjecture how other facts, and I do mean unsugar-coated facts, could impact Hispanic Americans. The difference is that in the latter case it's hard to see what can do except advise folks to differentiate between facts and fantasy, to develop a little thicker skin, to not take the facts so personally.
Let's define "Mexifornia" as "a term used to describe the increasing influence and numbers of legal and illegal Hispanics in California." This is a simple and undeniable fact. You ascribe some other dark meaning to this fact. I lament that California and our country has come to this but in the end it is just a fact of our times. It would be reversible only with Draconian measures or at least some vigorous enforcement of the law and some modification of existing laws to require workplace enforcement and better criteria for birthright citizenship.
"Mexifornia" should be considered an accolade or measure of success by the Hispanic community, especially the illegals and their supporters. "Mexico Norte" is the same factual concept applied to the nation as a whole. The evidence is there for all to see. No need to take umbrage at this fact unless you are a loyal American citizen who sees this as the beginning of the end for the great American experiment. Now that is a real cause for being upset. The other, it seems to me, is just an extension of the idea no child should ever be allowed to experience failure or criticism. In both cases folks are being shielded from reality or simply deluded.
"legalize those here (Guest Worker status)"
You mean grant amnesty to all 12-20 million illegals by rewarding them with the object of their illegality, the opportunity to stay and work in this country. Somehow this doesn't seem like this should be our policy. It would simply create a huge incentive for more to come, compounding the problem of securing the border. There must be another solution that helps us secure the border by creating disincentives rather than incentives for border violations.
You are complaining about people saying American of hispanic descent? Why do you call your blog
Immigration Talk with a "Mexican
American"? Until you think of yourself as just American, how can others? You were born here and as you have said your father, his and his were born here (200 years) yet you still think of yourself and call yourself "Mexican American".
"And for the billboard owner, I can just see that billboard owner yucking it up with his cohorts,"
I can just see the billboard owner asking his cohorts and everyone he meets why they are so dense about the flood of illegal aliens and the numerous instant citizens they produce when they get here, how they are taking over the country, how even some citizens support these illegals, etc. I'm sure he feels like he is bumping his head on a brick wall because so many other just don't get it. They dismiss the threat to our country and simply make as much money as they can off the backs of the illegals.
"Do you have your skis on? You are such a master of the slippery slope argument."
Okay, so let's agree a Mexican is a citizen of Mexico regardless of where he or she is physically located. If we use the word Mexican, that's what we mean from this day forward.
There probably is room here for another term. I have often used such terms as "illegal supporters", "fifth columnists", "traitors", "fellow travelers", "illegal sympathizers", etc. I'm open to suggestions for what would be a accurate blanket term for these folks. Maybe "quasi-citizen" is a good one. What do you suggest? Somehow the term "pro-illegals" seems like an oxymoron and is not nearly strong enough to convey the disloyalty implied by their support of the illegals.
Vigilantes and the Law
By Mark Potok, Editor
On the tenth day of the Minuteman Project, a vigilante effort to shut down human traffic across the Arizona-Mexico border that began on April Fools Day, a man named Patrick Haab was arrested at an Arizona rest stop where officials found him holding seven undocumented immigrants at gunpoint.
Haab, an Army reservist who had just returned from a tour of duty in Iraq, was not a part of the Minuteman Project, but he quickly became a hero and near-martyr to those who were. He was charged that night by Maricopa County sheriff's deputies with seven counts of aggravated assault, a decision that was later strongly endorsed by famously conservative Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
Haab claimed that he had stopped to relieve his dog and then, while walking the animal in the dark, was "rushed" by a group of men emerging from the brush. He said he feared for his life, so he trained a gun on the group and called 911.
Arpaio said that's hogwash.
Among other things, Arpaio said Haab's claim that he was "attacked" does not hold up, because even Haab admitted the unarmed men did not touch or threaten him. Haab's statement that he feared for his life is contradicted by the fact that he then followed them to the vehicle they were meeting, ordering them out and onto the ground while pointing the weapon at them, Arpaio said. And Haab's claim that he had no idea the men were illegal immigrants didn't make any sense, either, because Haab later said he thought they had believed he was a Border Patrol agent.
Kind of blows your theory of the SPLC and Arpaio, Doesn't it??!!
Ulty, Your argument favoring Eugenics was astounding. You can say you support Eugenics and still be against Abortion? Very Scary Ulty!
I see several problems with Eugenics or even the thought of it. First of all, if humans attempt to create a master race, who is the decider on which genes are good and kept vs which are bad and thrown out? What would happen to Art? Music? Creativity? Uniqueness? Inspirations? Magic? Love? Fun? Resilience? Aromas? Sights? Sounds? New Development? I don´t agree with turning our world into plain vanilla robots.
I am all for new developments in science and figuring cures for illnesses and I am against Abortion.
You can say what you will about athletics and intelligence, but these generalities are inaccurate when you think of Asian Basketball stars or Anglos Dancing with the Stars.
Also LOVE is the opposite of Eugenics. Love and Sexual Attraction are about magic and passion and nothing Your Master Race Manipulators can control. Have you never heard that Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder? Why on earth would Ms Jones marry Mr. Douglas except for the magic of attraction? I would hope we would elect a candidate based on character and ideals. We haven´t had a good looking President since JFK.
Liquid,
Are you listening to yourself? You said, “Lets make it about race and the preserving of a space on this earth for our homogeneous ethnic/racial people.”
What does this entail? Does this mean if your daughter falls in love with a Hispanic person, Asian, Native or African American, you will not let her?
Gosh, now you are sounding like Ulty and this whole Eugenics discussion.
At least we are getting down to the core issue.
Ulty and Liquid,
What I see happening is once this ANTI furvor dies down and the overall population understands the need for CIR, we will start working together to resolve the larger issues including the War, our Aging Boomer population and how to care for them, our deflated dollar, etc.
There will be no master race. Instead, I believe we will keep intermarrying with one another and we will all just be Americans, a thriving multi cultural society.
Anon,
If you read my profile (and my book), you will see why I named my blog the way I did.
Getting to your core issue maybe, not ours. My core issue is the American Citizens that use to have jobs here that no longer do due to your ethnic desires.
My daughters may marry whom they choose, race/ethnicity does not matter. I myself have married 2 different women, one Japanese, the other Portuguese.
We, as an United States of America, have the right to choose whom we allow to enter our country based on how they can benefit us. We may deny anybody and everybody we choose to. As there is no unexplored lands left on earth, nor any unpopulated livable place on this planet, we are entitled to have a place we can call ours. Every other race/ethnicity on this planet has done the same elsewhere. The weak parish and the strong survive, welcome to the human race.
Ulty,
I agree. A Mexican is a citizen of Mexico.
The Americans who are Hispanic are Americans.
Anyone who is here illegally should be addressed by their true citizenship.
Now tell the billboard owner this. And he should not post it because the citizen population with Hispanic ethnicity has doubled.
Your other ANTI made up terms are just plain rude and should not be used at all.
If you and all ANTIs and the Census promise, for the rest of your lives to call us all Americans, quit labeling us or marking the box and treat us as equals then we (all minorities) will promise to never use the hyphen again.
We have intermarried and we do think of ourselves as just Americans. You are a born American
and married a born American and still do not think of yourself as American, but Mexican American.
If you feel this way, how hard it would be for the 12 million plus illegals swarming across the border
for the almighty dollar to ever think of themselves as Americans.
Think about it.
Liquid,
I agree with much of what you said. However, the majority of the 12M were welcomed in and hired, so you can say they were welcomed by some and not by others. All one has to do is study the history of Immigration in our country.
Resilience enables the strong to survive.
Anon, I have always considered myself as American. (Obviously you did not read my profile or book reference). The issue is, the majority of White America and the Census continue to tell us to mark the box or call us Mexican, or hyphen whatever.
The billboard shoud say-"No olympic teams from Mexico? Why?
Because a good portion of their population is entering the U.S. illegally." You couldn't possibly take offense from that statement. It is directed towards Mexico and all the illegal aliens coming in from Mexico.
Dee, the next time you fill out a form, just write in "just American"
and do not check off any box. Start a revolt against the "Census"
and start a trend. I call you American although I can see clearly that is not how you think of yourself.
Out of curiosity, what box do your sons check off?
Dee,
I am in favor of there being laws in the US that imprison the employers of undocumented workers. I am in favor of there being laws that politely and gently escort undocumented workers to the border and repatriate them.
I am in favor of treating the employers much much more harshly than the undocumented workers.
It is painful to contemplate deporting 12 million people. This is not a pleasant task.
All Americans should feel terrible that we stood by and let this population of poor exploited good people grow to 12 million. All Americans are guilty of not nipping this in the bud. None of us had the willpower to enforce the 1986 law.
We are all in this boat together and have to bear the burden together.
Dee, If I were of Mexican descent, i would feel very bad about this outcome - I would feel like people of Mexican descent were being targetted.
Dee, many of the 12 million undocumented are not of Mexican descent. I think all Americans would feel better about themselves if the non-spanish speaking undocumented folks were deported first.
With plenty of news coverage of white canadian undocumented folks being deported to canada, and chinese people being deported to china, and jewish israelis being deported to israel and muslim folks being deported back to their countries, we could as a nation feel good about ourselves, feel like everyone is being treated fairly no matter what language they speak and no matter what their country of origin
Dee, if a good-hearted progressive anti could demonstrate to you that the deportation of 12 million STARTED with people who were non mexican, would that make you feel better about it, feel that it is not an attack on people of Mexican descent?
Dee i ask you this sincerely.
Please don't forget that Sam Gompers was jewish, and yet he called for not allowing jewish unskilled immigration (since his loyalty to the working class trumped his loyalty to fellow jews living across the boarder)
Similarly Caesar Chavez was of Mexican descent (citizen of US) and he called for not allowing unskilled immigration from Mexico since his loyalty to the working class trumped his loyalty to Mexicans living across the border.
Dee, I am sure that you accept that there are people who are of good heart, who have no negative feelings at all towards those of Mexican descent, who nonetheless want to see 12 million people deported.
Let me pose a question to you - how does someone prove to you that they are good hearted and not at all racist and are caring and sensitive and yet still strongly in favor of all 12 million undocumented of all races and religions leaving the US?
Let's figure out a way for all non racists to work together, and stop letting the racist scum define this debate
dee, take it up with the psychologist that I spoke with. I described what you do and say and that is what HE said about you. The truth hurts,huh? Want his phone number? I will give it to you.
Anon,
. I agree if there were clarity on the billboard message, many people would not have become offended. That is the problem with inaccurate statements. Racial Profiling occurs.
. I am American and have always thought of myself as American. Read my book. In some of my old blogs I relate a letter to the Editor I wrote back in the 80´s I wrote about this whole issue. Then I received a reply back from an African American saying it was “kind of cozy” to be part of a minority group. It is an interesting memory.
. In school, they checked White. They were living in my household during 2000 census. (Guess if they are PRO or ANTI). BTW, I often reference the fact that many in the silent majority are of mixed race so therefore, the 44 – 50M Hispanics is low-balling the number.
. I agree with some of your approach, definitely not the mass deportation. That part troubles me. Also, I do not agree with Detention Centers nor Blackwater or MM militia at the border. I am going to post a blog today with an update on Blackwater. You will find it very interesting. Won´t be out for a few hours though.
. Regarding OTMs, I don´t favor one group being mass deported over another. The problem is we do not know who is here. I have heard there are many that have requested sanctuary because their country is war torn and they have nowhere to return to however sanctuary status approval is either in progress or has been denied. Repatriation and Mass Deportation would be difficult to achieve even in the best of circumstances.
. Your last two paragraphs are a little troubling to me. First, I am against Mass Deportation. Second, I think deporting the population of New York would be devastating to people and to our economy. To accomplish it in 4 years would require storm troopers and a vast amount of racial profiling. (Operation Wetback going through Brown neighborhoods).
. So then your question is, what is the solution for the 12M here? My take is to bring them out of the shadows and allow them to register as Guest Workers. All felonious criminals deported. I know any form of this would be considered Amnesty by you and the ANTIs. We need to narrow this entire discussion to this one issue: What to do about the 12M here. Then allow a think tank to develop a viable solution that would not devastate America or hurt the Hispanic citizens of our country. I would agree to that.
Pat, Did he allow you to sit up after you were through talking to him or did he put you on your meds right away?
dee, of course I want further investigations conducted on any suspected illegal activity by anyone. But I don't chastize anyone without PROOF. Where is the proof,dee. Hearsay and accustations are not PROOF. Shouldn't Mecha, the Mexica-Movement and other raza groups be investigated further too or do you operate under a double standard?
The Sheriff has no affiliation with the KKK, etc. You are accusing him of it, now you PROVE it or you will be considered a liar.
We anti's know what the pro's true agenda is too. Gumballs is about reducing or stabilizing our population. It never stated and race or ethnicity. Why do you lie about it?
The billboard was about illegal aliens. Why do you continue to lie about that too?
The sheriff is not involved with the KKK
Dee -
I just want to repeat this so that it doesn't get lost in the flood here
Assume that there are antis with hearts of gold - if they made sure that the NON Mexicans were deported first, would that make you see the antis as good kind folks?
What about if the Antis of Irish descent personally helped the government deport undocumented folks from ireleand (there are plenty of them)
and then the Antis of Polish descent personally helped the government deport the undocumented folks from Poland
and then blacks helped the government deport undocumented folks from africa
and asians helped deport the asian undocumented people
and on and on -- each ethnic group did its own part.
Wouldn't it be really fun to see the white racist scum cry and complain as white nordic looking people were deported back to Canada and Europe?
Let's say that deportation happened to all other groups first.
If those of us that are NOT of Mexican descent made this happen FIRST, would you Dee then be comfortable that deportation was not racist, and was being done to benefit us citizens of all races?
Dee,
Pretend for a minute that there are some people who are not racist - they have friends and family from a variety of races. They love all races equally.
But let's pretend that these people think that wages for the unskilled us citizens will shoot up if all 12 million undocumented are deported
Let's say that they want to START by deporting all the anglo undocumented, just to see the racists on stormfront squeal and cry.
Is there a way that a non racist person who is in favor of deporting the 12 million can earn your respect?
In fact, is there a way that deporting the 12 million can be done so fairly as to attract the enthusiastic support of many hispanic us citizens?
I believe that for the sake of morality, the movement to deport the 12 million needs many prominent american born hispanics to join the cause.
let's join together to think outside the box
You're lying again, dee. The Census doesn't have a box for "Mexican". It does have one however for Hispanic. You find this offensive? Why? It also has a box for White, Black, Asian, etc. Should I feel offended because it has a box for "White"? White-American, Black-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American are all common terms. How in the world do you get offensive out of that?
Dee,
The USA already conducted a massive deportation once before.
It was a deportation of White Anglo Saxon Protestants - all english speakers.
And it happened in the 1770's
I love tweaking the white racists with that. These whites people declared that they were loyal to a foreign country (England) and not loyal to the USA.
As a result, they were deported from the USA to Canada.
Is deportation racist? It depends. I believe that there are millions of good hearted non racist folks here in the USA in favor of deportation.
Dee, the question is, what do the non racist people in the USA who are in favor of deportation have to do in order to carve out some space and be recognized as non racists?
how do we prove that we are not racist? What can we do ?
Another lie, dee and this time it is about the SAVE ACT. In the four year time period employers would have to verify ALL of their employees right to work in this country, not just Hispanics. This would be done in the workplace of course and not by storm trooping nor racial profiling any neighborhoods.
My psychiatrist friend has penned you right on the money, a pathalogical liar among other medical terms. I am not under his care nor on any meds but you certainly should be.
Dee...that is what I did...I was caring for my grandchildren today and took them to the movies. We saw The Bee Movie...it was cute and a good moral to the story..without bees there are no flowers and fruit and veggies and there is no honey. It wasn't a laugh marathon but it had some humorous moments. Of course I can hear you thinking (and I agree) without worker bees there are none of those either.
I think the difference is that years ago when I was young and growing up in Wisconsin, there were mostly small farms and families could pretty much take care of their own harvesting, etc. Now there are way more corporate farms than family farms (I know this is different in Calif ... always have been the big growers) but where I'm from it was pretty much the family farm.
The bottom line here is greedy employers and this has to stop. They are the reason illegal immigrants are here and enforcing the workplace is the way it's going to stop.
Have a good day.
Anon,
You are missing it. You are reading the ANTI accusations which fly right and left.
I am not an ethnocentrist. I am a proud American. I do believe in a secure border, employer sanctions. Where we disagree is what to do about the 12M here. I do not differentiate the 12M into ethnic groups. The only differentiation, if we were to be able to pick and choose, would be based on certain eligibility requirements. These requirements would include:
1. Felonious Free. That is besides the immigration issues, they should be crime free. No felonies. Anyone with felonious, non immigration crimes would be deported to country of origin.
2. Duration in US. If we needed additional criteria due to restriction in numbers, my preference would be based on length of time here, working, contributing. That is, if someone were here 5+ years, they would have preference vs someone with 1 year. This could be easily checked via employment records.
I disagree with your “by ethnic origin” recommendation. I would use the above criteria.
I do agree with you on two things. We do need to join together and
1. think outside the box
2. keep racism out of the discussion. By this I do not mean being PC and using the right words to hide racism. I mean keeping racism out of the discussion.
Anon,
I don´t believe all the ANTIs are racist. The ANTIs are comprised of strange bedfellows, as are the PROs. I put together a chart on this. I may put it up tonight or tomorrow. The racist issues come up when some of their side does something blatant and the more rationale ANTIs refuse to acknowledge or admonish them.
The ANTIs in a nutshell:
. Scholars (8%): Educated, Excellent Communicators. Write the ANTI PC line.
. African Americans (2%): Angry at job losses
. Legal Immigrants (5%): Angry illegals are shortcutting the long process they went through
. Separatists (5%): Anger towards Muslims
. Rich Elitists (20%): Anger towards impact on their Property Values
. Closet Racists (30%): Hide their animosity and hatred of all Hispanics. Good Followers
. Nut Case Racists (20%) : Openly discuss their hatred of Hispanics (some of the ANTI leaders)
. Media Pundits & Politicos(10%): After their own power, riches and recognition. (some of the ANTI leaders)
BTW, I do think Ultima is a scholar among the ANTIs. We fight occassionally, but mostly we get along, although we adamently disagree on the approach to resolving the Immigration issues our country is facing.
Dianne,
I thought about taking my g babies to the movies, but my older one had a cold and I was a little bit worried about the shopping crowds.
I did see Seinfeld on the Tonight Show. I like him. That´s why I want to see the movie. And yes, I think worker bees are needed.
I agree. Greedy Employers, especially the ones that exploit people, have to be stopped.
I hope you have a good day too!
One other thing I should add, Anon.
I believe only about 50M people are PROs and about 50M are ANTIs.
The rest of the American Public, all 200M are neither PRO nor ANTI.
Many in this group are currently swaying ANTI.
Why? The ANTIs have done a good job at communicating their perspective.
What is happening now? More and more PROs are linking together and communicating the facts, as they see them. They are becoming as politically active as the ANTIs.
As the 200M see-view both perspectives, they are deciding where they fall.
I don´t believe the majority of the American people want the mass deportation of 12M – 20M people (with their children).
The best thing that can happen is we allow the ANTIs to create their xenophobic laws within their communities. Then we see the impact, city by city, location by location.
When various communities are impacted by these laws being imposed then they realize the error in the ANTI´s agenda.
Any rational person knows if we deport 12M people in a 4 year period, particularly with racial profiling Operation Wetback initiatives, our economy will be devastated and communities will be up in arms and destroyed. This is what is happening in Tulsa with the new laws imposed by the MMs there.
I agree that moving state by state is the right move. That way all Americans will see the impacts. In the meantime, we PROs can bring our groups together and educate the public on the History of Immigration and the impact the xenophobic laws will have on their own communities.
BTW, I think Dianne is among the 200M and currently leaning ANTI.
Quote dee: "keep racism out of the discussions". More so than any other blog memember in here you dee bring racism and race into the discussions. Many of your topics have the word race or racism in them. So what are you tallking about? Guess you don't follow your own advice. Well that is what is meant by the word, hypocrite.
Anti accusations? LOL! You make more accusations than anyone else in this blog. Are you kidding me?
You don't consider all anti's racists? Well you could have fooled me and just about everyone else in this blog. That is all you do is scream racism.
Dee, the question is, what do the non racist people in the USA who are in favor of deportation have to do in order to carve out some space and be recognized as non racists?
Dee
i respect you very much
but please take the above statement at face value
assume that someone is not racist, and has close friends and family of all races and still wants the 12 million people here deported
how can a person that wants 12 million deported demonstrate that they are not racist ?
do you accept that if we first deport the whites that proves we are not racist
explain the series of actions that results in 12 million people being deported without the people doing the deporting being seen by you as racist
again, i am trying to find a way for people to be in favor of deportation and yet not racist
Dee is correct about me.
I started leaning anti when I watched almost every hour of the senate floor debate on the immigration bill. I became more anti when I heard the details of the bill that provided amnesty as in not having to leave the country even for gang members who simply renounced their gang affiliation and for the ability of illegals to send for extended families and for medicaid benefits for people who were given green cards overnight and for no health check-ups and for forgiveness of part of their income taxes .... in a nutshell, illegals given instant legal access to the United States but not even having to meet the same requirements that people must meet who are applying for legal immigration.
The Senate bill was outrageous. Until something is worked out that is a whole lot different than the Senate bill was, I cannot support any path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. Already illegal immigrants get benefits here that are very generous and cost the citizens of this country a lot of money. It's happening right here in my own home town in the form of increased taxes to support schools. There are so many illegal immigrants in one of our grade schools they qualify as a Title 1 school. Those kids get free day care before and after school. They even have free dental work done at school. My grandkids who go to school in the same district don't get those benefits. See what I mean?
It's not right.
Dee Says:
1. Felonious Free. That is besides the immigration issues, they should be crime free. No felonies. Anyone with felonious, non immigration crimes would be deported to country of origin.
If they use a SS# in order to obtain a job at any point, that in itself is a felony, while just living in the USA without proper documentation is only a misdemeanor. So, just by them working under the guise of false documentation, in of itself, they are construed to be felonious. Or is this one of your immigration crimes that grants pardon to them?
Dee says:
2. Duration in US. If we needed additional criteria due to restriction in numbers, my preference would be based on length of time here, working, contributing. That is, if someone were here 5+ years, they would have preference vs someone with 1 year. This could be easily checked via employment records.
And how can you deter employment record fraud in your system? If employers have to verify there workers by time, who do you propose check it and how long will it take? How are you going to verify false documentation and false names? How are you going to match these persons to records without some sort of correct ID or DNA sample??
Dee says:
I don´t believe the majority of the American people want the mass deportation of 12M – 20M people (with their children).
The best thing that can happen is we allow the ANTIs to create their xenophobic laws within their communities. Then we see the impact, city by city, location by location.
We, the majority of American Citizens, have all been stating since day 1 "Enforcement through Attrition" and to enforce current laws.
Dee says:
Any rational person knows if we deport 12M people in a 4 year period, particularly with racial profiling Operation Wetback initiatives, our economy will be devastated and communities will be up in arms and destroyed. This is what is happening in Tulsa with the new laws imposed by the MMs there.
Enforcement through attrition is not mass deportation. It is 4 years for employment verification, not mass deportation. Your claim of devastated economies and communities is inaccurate. Look to Oklahoma and Arizona since the passing of there laws and the exodus of the "illegals" from those states. Arizona has had a declining unemployment rate, it has gone from 4.0 to 3.5. Oklahoma has gone from 5.0 to 4.4.
Your last sentence is quite telling of your biasness, as the MM's did not create the Oklahoma laws that your are implying in Tulsa. The State Government enacted those laws.
liquid, you may as well be beating your head on a brick wall trying to reason with an irrational person who is a habitual liar too.
What operation wetback? "ALL" employee's validity will be checked during the 4 year time period no matter who they are and it will be done in the workplace not in neighborhoods. So where is the racial profling?
With all due respect to the other bloggers here
i think Dee is rational
i also think she is sincere.
I personally have a hard time agreeing with anyone that doesn't make clear up front that they are not racist.
in my humble opinion, many many of the loudest antis are racist. so i have a hard time saying anything nice about antis in general
That being said, i want an answer to my question from Dee.
I want to know what I, as a non racist that wants to see all races in america grow together and prosper, and intermarry and produce a true melting pot, what can i personally do in order to facilitate a non racist, fair deportation of 12 million good honest hardworking people?
i know deportation is tough, perhaps it is cruel, but i have no problem as long as it is not done in a racist way.
so i want my question answered, how can a deportation of twelve million be done in a non racist way
Dee
i respect you very much
but please take the above statement at face value
assume that someone is not racist, and has close friends and family of all races and still wants the 12 million people here deported
how can a person that wants 12 million deported demonstrate that they are not racist ?
do you accept that if we first deport the whites that proves we are not racist
explain the series of actions that results in 12 million people being deported without the people doing the deporting being seen by you as racist
again, i am trying to find a way for people to be in favor of deportation and yet not racist
With all due respect to the other bloggers here
i think Dee is rational
i also think she is sincere.
I personally have a hard time agreeing with anyone that doesn't make clear up front that they are not racist.
in my humble opinion, many many of the loudest antis are racist. so i have a hard time saying anything nice about antis in general
That being said, i want an answer to my question from Dee.
I want to know what I, as a non racist that wants to see all races in america grow together and prosper, and intermarry and produce a true melting pot, what can i personally do in order to facilitate a non racist, fair deportation of 12 million good honest hardworking people?
i know deportation is tough, perhaps it is cruel, but i have no problem as long as it is not done in a racist way.
so i want my question answered, how can a deportation of twelve million be done in a non racist way
Dee
i respect you very much
but please take the above statement at face value
assume that someone is not racist, and has close friends and family of all races and still wants the 12 million people here deported
how can a person that wants 12 million deported demonstrate that they are not racist ?
do you accept that if we first deport the whites that proves we are not racist
explain the series of actions that results in 12 million people being deported without the people doing the deporting being seen by you as racist
again, i am trying to find a way for people to be in favor of deportation and yet not racist
Anon,
Ulty and I discuss this all the time.
I do not consider him racist and he knows this.
I like him. He is very intelligent.
Yet, many times he advocates Mass Deportation.
Your Question: what do the non racist people in the USA who are in favor of (mass) deportation have to do in order to carve out some space and be recognized as non racists?
My Response: Nothing. I don´t recognize those that are not racist as racist. At most, I admonish you for not acknowledging those in your ranks that are racist. (as I frequently say to Ultima)
The Question you are really asking is, How do you convince me that Mass Deportation is a viable solution? (as Ulty frequently tries to convince me)
My Response: So far, no one has convinced me this is a viable solution. If you are looking for my blessing for Mass Deportation, you do NOT have it. I do not think this is a viable solution. As I have stated on many occasions. My belief is we need to identify some means of making the 12M legal. (Guest Worker or path to citizenship) I have come a long way on this. Initially I said path to citizenship. While I have compromised, the ANTIs have not. In fact, they have gone the other way.
My next compromise would be to say, what percentage would satisfy you of the 12M? 80% legalization? 60%? I say to you, what is your compromise?
Liquid,
Semantics. Perhaps the better term would have been the MMs lobbied for the passage of the laws. The citizens did not get a vote!
Anon,
One more thing.
If you want to convince the masses that Mass Deportation of 12M - 20M (with children) within a 4 year period as the SAVE Act would have us believe, is a viable option, then tell us how this would be accomplished within the 4 year timeframe.
Don´t kid yourself to think this will happen in 4 years through attrition. You are talking 5M leaving each year for 4 years. This is more than the population of the state of New York.
Over the last year, we have seen the number of new illegal immigrants reduced each year with enforcement, but we have not seen any decrease in the number of illegal immigrants at all.
So how does any reasonable person believe this will occur through attrition and total 5M a year over the next 4 years? Without some form of Operation Wetback - Racial Profiling of Hispanic Neighborhoods and without added Raids by Contractors in these neighborhoods?
It ain´t gonna happen.
Be Honest!
Dee
thank you for this response
i do not seek to convince you that mass deportation is a good idea
i am simply saying that i am not racist and i am in favor of mass deportation.
i seek to be able to make my case in a forum in which the racists are excluded
the problem i have with this whole debate is that in my humble opinion the vast majority of the loud antis are racist and i really dont want to be arguing on their side.
where can i find a like minded community of people such as myself, people with a lifetime of non racist credentials, people with many races in their family and among their friends,
where on the web is the community of hard core progressives in favor of deporting the 12 million , people in favor of a more fair distribution of income, higher wages for the working class, good health care , good schools, a healthier fairer more just society?
basically a community of people that clearly contains no racists, but in which it is acceptable to advocate mass deportation
a group like "choose black america" that was honest - that was a spontaneous product of the black community, not a scam set up by FAIR
where can a progressive that is in favor of mass deportation go to find community?
Anon,
I do not think you are racist.
You are like Ultima and have your own perspective. You are passionate about your opinion. I am fine with that if you are looking for my perspective.
If you are looking for a like minded blog, one that is completely like you, I don´t know of one completely like you.
I recommend you stay here and talk with all sides.
I also recommend Ultimas blog even though he is an ANTI. (see my blog favorites)
I also recommend Borjas blog. He allows both sides to post, even though most are ANTI. Many very intelligent people post there. (see my blog favorites)
I also recommend going to local forums and discussion boards. That will be a good mix.
There are like minded blogs that I know of for me. However, when you go to a like minded blog, what do you learn? That others agree with you? By attending my blog and others, you get into the mix of it.
I get beat up every day, but I learn so much.
My opinion has changed over the last year.
I used to come on and give it back, uncivilly.
I used to get angry.
I don´t get angry any more.
I do try to learn various perspectives.
I also study more.
I also learned more people are on the other side than I initially thought.
I also learned most people will not change their minds.
I also learned that both sides are comprised of strange bedfellows.
I have learned so much over the past year.
I also learned I am not always right and I am not always wrong. There are more shades of gray on this issues than any other issue.
Could you post where it is required that 12-20 million illegals be deported within 4 years? I thought the only thing that is required is that employers must check all of their employees who have mismatches or duplicate SSN and if they cannot clear up the problem terminate them. I don't see this as a perfect solution unless a national termination list is published or available on line so that a terminated illegal is prevented from moving on to a new employer and going thru the process again and again, all the time remaining working in this country.
Does the SAVE bill actually say all such persons must be held for ICE and deported? That would be good but I suspect that bureaucratic delays and other factors would mean that actual deportation within the 4 years, even if it is required by SAVE, would deal with only fraction of the total number of illegals. As we all know many of the illegals have children who may or may not be included in the estimates. To the extent that they are and to the extent that parents would choose to abandon their children if they are deported, the number actually deported would be substantially less than 12-20 million. The problem would not be racial profiling but just the huge volume of persons who would have to be processed. The best we could hope for is that as they are identified they get finger printed, photographed and DNA'd. Those who cannot be processed immediately would then be required to promise to show up at a detention center at a particular date for processing with the admonition that they would be jailed or put on work gangs at the border if they do not show and are subsequently apprehended.
We would need to figure out the total number of immigration judges that would be needed to process the expected volume. Auxiliary Justice of the Peace could be trained to do the initial job. They would have to pass a test on immigration law before taking the bench. This process could be further facilitated by embedding in the law a fairly rigid set of criteria for the initial decision and for any subsequent appeal. The initial decision should be made within 24 hours of apprehension and detention and appeals limited to a one week time frame.
I have previously suggested some appeals criteria that could be used for this purpose:
1. Testimonials from co-workers, community leaders, employers and others from a different ethnic group.
2. Children over the age of 7 in U.S. public schools who can demonstrate the ability to read, write and speak English.
3. Ability to read, write and speak English or evidence of the completion of the equivalent of 4 semesters of English as a second language.
4. Evidence of social integration, and cultural and linguistic assimilation.
5. A renunciation of allegiance to any foreign government or potentate and renunciation of any claim to dual citizenship.
6. Evidence to prove the illegal has not taken a job for which there is a qualified citizen applicant at a fair wage.
The questioning from the judge for the initial 24 hour decision might go something like this:
1. What is your immigration status? Did you enter this country with the proper credentials?
2. Have you overstayed your visa?
3. Has your green card expired?
4. What taxes have you paid since you have been in the U.S.?
5. Have you used a fraudulent SSN?
6. Did you used stolen or fraudulent documents to gain employment?
7. How many children do you have?
8. How many of them were born in this country?
9. Was either of their parents a U.S. citizen?
10. If you were deported, would you take your minor children with you regardless of their citizenship?
In the interests of contributing more than intense criticism of the pro-illegals for the rest of this year and the holiday season I will be posting here or on my own blog positive stories about illegals or visa overstays or visa holders.
In return I would hope that the pro-illegals would focus more on the positive arguments of the pro-legals rather than whatever dirt might be available regarding the extremists in our midst on both sides of the issue.
I am an anti but in all honesty i am embarrassed to admit it in real life
The racist antis give all of us a bad name.
i would only feel comfortable admitting to being an anti if the face of the anti movement was someone who was well known to not be racist.
pat buchananan and vdare really nauseate me. i am terrified of being associated with them
i am an anti because i believe strongly that us citizens of mexican descent, and blacks, and other minorities will see rising wages - RAPIDLY rising wages once the 12 million are deported
let's all look carefully at Phoenix - if wages there for poor high school dropouts start to rise it will be fuel for my convictions
if wages do not move, then it will certainly be an argument that i am wrong
let's all step back and observe
Ulty,
Here is what Shuler wrote:
• Attrition Through enforcement works: Over 400 illegal aliens skipped town after Swift dropped hints about ICE's suspicions. Once the message gets out that there aren't any jobs for illegal aliens, they leave.
These raids are a good start, but raids alone will not solve the illegal immigration crisis. Constant pressure must be placed on illegal aliens and their employers by ICE and local governments as part of an Attrition Through Enforcement strategy.
Additionally, the bill states:
. increased investigative efforts
. increased border agents
. emergency deployment of border patrol agents (1000 if a gov. declares state of emer)
. increased reporting
. increased contractors to carry out the Integrated and Automated Surveillance Programs
. increased detention centers
Anon, Many PROs are looking carefully at AZ, OK and other locations with newly imposed, restrictive laws. You are right, we should all monitor what happens in these locations.
Ulty, It is also important to see what Blackwater is doing as we speak.
I just posted info on a new blog.
A thought just crossed my mind. How would illegals feel about a payment to leave the country voluntarily and with a promise not to return except under legal circumstances? I think the payment could actually be quite substantial...say $10,000 or so. Every child in a school system costs over $7,000/year so $10,000 isn't so out of reality. Also, they wouldn't be penalized if they wanted to return legally as they are now.
This would not be for hard core criminals, but ordinary hard working people.
I could then entertain an increase in numbers of legal immigrants as well as even a guest worker program (funded by employers). Or would this just encourage people to go deeper into the shadows?
Dianne,
You make a good point. I think there would be a certain number of people who would willingly and immediately re-patriate with these types of incentives, particularly the newer (within 5 years) arrivals. Afterall, many of them send most of their earnings back home now. Additionally, there are programs (micro-loans) that would help them start their own businesses back in their home countries.
Perhaps this could be part of an overall process in which those here over 5 years would have an opportunity for legalization or at least a Guest Worker status. I believe these folks would be the most assimilated.
I agree we do need to establish a legalization process and smooth transition process for those repatriating.
I agree this would save millions-billions especially when you consider the costs of private prisons, cost per day for incarcerations, whole families being incarcerated, the cost of Blackwater and all of their extremely expensive contractors.
Also things to consider:
1. Those here from war-torn countries seeking sanctuary and unable to return home
2. NAFTA and other programs have deteriorated the economies in their home countries. How does the US (who is currently reaping the benefits of NAFTA)assist in repairing the damage caused?
3. What about Big Business? Will they allow the recommended changes? How will this impact our own economy?
4. What about the ANTIs who will only accept mass deportation, detention centers and force?
Just things to consider.
Dee, well at last maybe some common ground.
There is no "one" solution. My concerns are primarily economic and I think I may be in the majority. People are afraid. Anti's are afraid for their livelihoods. That's the truth. We're being taxed so high for our schools here (me..I pay $4200/year in property taxes primarily for schools)and I live in house appraised at 288,000. But, I have many neighbors who have construction jobs and they're afraid of no work too. I know the illegals are afraid of being deported. We're all afraid!
So, we need to remove the fear. One of the things that really wrong with the system for illegals is that once deported, they have no chance of return, even illegally. Wouldn't it go a long way if we removed that fear?
Employers - well I really am pissed at them and I'm not inclined to feel sorry for them. In fact, I think they should pay for the programs. If they had to pay, they might not be so inclined to hire illegals nor would they be so inclined to treat them like dogs. I would find a way to make them pay or else play by the temporary worker rules. And, I'd make sure they treated people right who worked for them.
As far as illegal people who are here for a long time and want to stay, well, I'd have to say they must pay for their past. They must register somehow, they must pay back income taxes (all of them) just like the rest of us citizens do and a fine. They must learn English and assimilate and I'd even throw in no dual citizenship. If you want to live in this country permanently, then you are an American, period.
Made a mistake above when talking about illegals who leave returning. I meant returning "legally", not illegally.
You make some very good suggestions Dianne.
It would be interesting to have the people write an Immigration Bill, not one purely by the ANTI side (like the SAVE Act) or the PRO side (previously defeated ACTs), but a true compromise we all could live with.
Dee,
I know your heart is in the right place.
You talk often about folks from war torn countries that have no place left to go.
Let's say that out of the world's population, 500 million people are living in war torn countries - All 500 of those people would like to move to the United States.
Dee, are you advocating that all 500 million of them be allowed in?
Let's say that you advocate only giving 5 million of them permission to come in.
OK
You let 5 million in legally and then another 10 million sneak in.
You have 10 million people from war torn countries that are sitting here in the USA illegally. They all have heart-rending stories - it is emotionally very difficult for good hearted Americans to deport these ten million people.
What do you do?
Dee, i am sure that you see what i am getting at - if a country lacks the willpower to deport then it will be buried in millions of newcomers.
Dee, i consider myself to be a humanitarian, but i see no alternative to deportation. The number of people living in terrible war torn conditions is just too great to absorb in the USA
if you have a better idea i am eager to hear it
By the way,
I am an anti and i am strongly in favor of cash payments to undocumented workers that have been in the USA for a long time who are deported.
I know that others will point out that there will be massive fraud in any such program, and have other valid objections.
However, my sense of justice and fair play makes me want to implement massive fines on the rich white anglo employers that have hired the illegals all these years - and my sense of justice makes me want to send the money raised from such fines to the good upstanding undocumented workers who toiled away. Let's give them something to allow them to build a happy life for themselves in Mexico
I actually also like this for a personal reason - I have deep personal sympathy for the undocumented folks in the USA. And i want to splinter the anti - cause in to those that are sympathetic to the undocumented like me and the ones that are unsympathetic (the unsympathetic folks include some racists and some people that are just cold hearted)
what i am saying is that i want to carve out a space for people like me who want a "compassionate deportation"
Truly i am optimistic when i say that i would like to build a coalition in favor of compassionate deportation! however, that is the cause I believe in - and i guess i will have to look forward to plenty of disagreement from all sides!
Anon, I referenced those here who have worked and contributed, applied for sanctuary and have no country to return to without risking death. I do not think that number is in the millions.
Anon,
Voluntary repatriation incentives may be effective, as Dianne suggested. Micro Loan programs to help repatriates set up a business in their originating countries is another idea. Partnering with our allied countries to offset the NAFTA impacts so these repatriates may have continuous employment when they return would be helpful. These are suggestions that could work. I do like your “Humanitarian Coalition to Assist Self Repatriation” idea. It could work. I haven´t seen any websites like that. You may want to start one. It is a good idea and would be interesting to see how many people come on board. I would link to your site from mine.
Sorry anon but dee's heart is only for her raza. That isn't noble as you imply. You are new here, stick around and you will see.
Giving illegal aliens money to leave our country is the most ludicrious thing I have ever heard. What a message that will send to the world! How about we just make them leave voluntarity through the SAVE ACT?
Patriot,
I am an anti, and i am in favor of compassionate deportation, and that means spending money.
The guilty parties here are white anglos who employed the undocumented. Heavy fines on them will more than pay for a very compassionate deportation.
For those American Citizens with undocumented friends and relatives, seeing those friends and relatives deported (compassionately or otherwise) is going to be very very tough. The USA needs to do this in a fair and compassionate way, in order to bring us all together as a nation as the deportation is going on.
FIRST arrest a bunch of white anglo employers. Heavy fines, plus hard time in maximum security prisons is what they deserve and should get FIRST
Anglos in prison will show that the USA is being fair in this process.
Then deport the anglo undocumenteds - back to ireland, back to canada, etc. Get the racists screaming and complaining.
Then and only then start deporting the undocumenteds that are not anglo. An environment of shared sacrifice. If they can prove they were in the USA for more than five years, pay a cash stipend to help them resettle.
The deportation has to happen. If it is done in a cruel crude way it will leave a divided nation in its wake. If it is done in a compassionate way it will be better for our nation.
Future generations will be proud of us if we can do the deportation in a compassionate way.
If we do it cruelly (or don't do it at all), they will not forgive us.
White anglos hired them? So only white anglos own businesses? There is a three fold guilt in this illegal immigration mess and that is the employers, our government AND the illegals. The illegal sympathizers don't want to recognize and guilt on the part of the illegals themselves. No real anti calls them "undocumented" either.
We can't be swayed by emotion in this issue. If an American citizen had a relative who broke the law and they had to go to prison, should we be swayed by the sadness of the relative and not make the law breaker relative go to prison then?
The employers should be dealt with simultaneously along with the illegals. I find it odd that you keep mentioning "white anglo" when you mention the employers. Why should we deport anglo illegals first? They all should go as detected!
Paying illegals to leave is still the most ridiculous proposition I have ever heard. It isn't cruel to enforce our immigration laws, not to reward illegal aliens but to deport them as our laws demand.
Other countries do it, why would be look bad to the world for doing likewise? We owe them no compassion. They showed American citizens none by violating our laws, sucking up our tax dollars and stealing our jobs and refusing to assimilate to our language and culture.
I suspect that you are another dee sock puppet and are trying to hide it by putting a different twist on the issue.
Pat,
You have lost it again. Anon and Dianne and I have been discussing possible solutions.
Your militia style tactics are not helpful. We can´t have all prisons and raids and riots.
The majority of Americans do not want that.
We should think of viable solutions.
I have a hunch dee that one or both of these new personas are your sock puppets. It would be just like you to create them but I don't really care as I have seen it before from you.
Yes, we can rid ourselves of illegal aliens thru the SAVE ACT but you don't want that so you call it not a solution when it is a solution. Most in the Senate and House will support this bill and it is a viable solution. Most Americans will support it too. A fact you cannot stand and are in eternal denial over.
Pat, Pat, Pat,
Your conspiracy theories about people who comment here are silly.
You lose most of your credibility when you dismiss others as "made up" who don´t agree with you.
Patriot,
I am in favor of comapssionate deportation
the reason why white anglo employers need to go to prison FIRST
then the white anglo undocumented need to be deported
and ONLY then should the undocumented mexicans be deported is very simple
the usa has a history of racism
the anti cause is a mix of racists and people like me who are not racist.
ONLY by demonstrating its non racist bona fides will the anti cause have moral credibility.
if the antis keep focusing on the undocumented mexicans, it just reeks of racism.
yes i would like the racist/ angry antis to break off from the progressive antis like me.
I am looking for a charismatic persuasive person with impeccable progressive credentials that i can get behind and support - somone who is like me, in favor of compassionate deportation, deportation that is obviously not driven by racism.
Patriot, have you actually read vdare? Vdare often posts disparaging comments about african americans. the african americans are CITIZENS and yet vdare criticizes them. Vdare thus reveals itself to care about racial issues, not just citizenship.
As a progressive, i don't care about preserving the USA as a "white" nation. I just want it to be a nation in which the people that clean toilets for a living earn a living wage. And I am enough of a student of economics to know that will only happen with zero unskilled immigration.
Frankly, I'd like to see the undocumented deported.
I'd like to invite in millions of investment bankers and CEO's from Mexico and other spanish speaking countries in.
How about having a diverse USA, while at the same time driving down the wages of anglo bankers and CEOS?
You see, i have no interest in keeping the USA white. All i care about is the unequal income distribution.
As i said, i need to see a few prominent minorities come together and promote deportation as a way to raise the wages of minorities. That is what i believe in
For so long as the face of the anti campaign is composed of hateful white males and racists, I won't even publicly admit i am an anti.
So even if you don't agree with me, if you are an anti you damn well better hope that some prominent minority / progressives come out publicly as antis - because if there are no minority & progressive antis for me and people like me to rally around, the anti movement won't have me.
And you know what - i'm not alone
No dee, I don't lose credibility, you do when you make up sock puppets. The fact that I call you on them lends to my credibility instead. Thats ok though, you have had absolultely no one in here agreeing with you for some time now so it must be getting pretty lonely, therefore "the sock puppets".
You have been a bit more clever this time though. You are creating ones with a little more of a middle of the road view to hide them, lol.
anon,dee...why do you keep mentioning anglos? Does it matter what race an employer or an illegal is? I don't think so.
How does punishing the employers FIRST equate to compassion for the illegals? Why do the illegals deserve any more compassion than the employers do? I dont' think either of them deserve compassion. They are both law breakers.
I think it racist on your part to suggest that we deport all white illegals first. We should deport them all as they are detected.
What country doesn't have some racism in it's past and present? NONE!
The only reason that Mexican illegals are more focused on is because they are the majority of illegals. That's it, no other reason. This isn't a race based issue for most anti's.
I stay away from groups based on racism and that includes those who are "brown" racists. I am only interested in solving our illegal immigration problem, period.
It isn't about keeping the U.S. white as in skin color or race. It is all about preserving our national, identifying culture, language and heritage. Just like Mexico wants to retain theirs and Italy, Poland, Ireland, etc.
We don't need millions of unskilled foreign workers in our country. Our quota for legal immigration is 1.5 million per year. Considering that we already have 300 million people in this country and our birthrates are twice our death rates, I see no reason to increase those numbers and these immigrants should be from many countries, not just one.
Patriot
I am not a sock pupput for Dee.
The only way i can demonstrate that is to make a donation to a political cause that i believe in, in your honor.
So find me an anti organization, no matter how small, that is led by a minority with impeccable progressive credentials, I will send them a donation in your honor, and then you will see i am for real.
By the way, since the beginning of our nation, there have been two types of people against unskilled immigration. People like me who were against it for labor market reasons and people who wanted to keep the US the way it was, and not have it change.
Benjamin Franklin was strongly against allowing immigration of people from Germany since he thought the US might turn in to a german speaking country (i can provide citations if needed)
then Sam Gompers, who was mainly concerned with driving up the wages of the unskilled, teamed up with the racists to campaign for the chinese exclusionary act.
The usa has a long long history of letting racism impact its immigration policies.
That is a simple fact.
I am looking for a leader who is courageous enough to offend the racists and also courageous enough to offend the pro immigration people.
To me, this leader can bring the broad middle of the country together.
Rich, white anglo employers doing hard time in a maximum security prison will show that the USA is not racist. Booting out the anglo undocumented will show that the USA is not racist.
Take up my challenge - show me a legitimate progressive, someone who can build bonds in the minority communities, someone who can aggressively advocate for a compassionate deportation, and i will send in a contribution in honor of you, patriot.
By the way,
I have said that i don't want any unskilled immigration in to the USA - since i believe each unskilled immigrant pushes down wages for native born unskilled people
there is another type of immigrant i don't want - i don't want any white immigrants that are racist.
In my humble experience, many white people from south africa that come to the usa bring with them a racist attitude. Also many white people from the nation formerly known as Rhodesia. Frankly, i don't care how much abuse they feel they have suffered at the hands of people with darker skin than them, i don't want people who are racist here in the usa.
who would i like to have immigrate?
How about some latino surgeons, investment bankers, and CEOs?
How about a few TV shows in which latinos live in a mansion in Greenwich and have a bunch of anglo servants taking care of them?
Most white racists in my opinion like things the way they are. They like having a subservient, hunted and hungry spanish speaking class here in the USA that they can look down on.
I on the other hand want a country with zero unskilled immigration, so everyone who is a us citizen will get educated and rise up, intermarry and blend in to one country. I believe that with my program of compassionate deportation, the US will have a labor shortage that will pull more an more people in to the middle classs.
100 years from now there won't be an underclass. I don't even think there will BE races anymore. I think all the races will intermarry and the people alive in 100 years will all be americans -
I can't see how you could see me as Dee's sock puppet. you keep saying that Dee cares about la raza, well under my plan there will be no la raza. La Raza will be a relic of the past. it will be a joke.
Ever hear of the German Bund? it was just like la raza in its day, a loud group that advocated kids learning german language in school and preserving german culture. Who in the younger generation even knows about it?
Patriot, have you ever visited Japan? There is no unskilled immigration there and as a result just about no one is poor. Almost no crime, almost no homelessness.
You know something, I am much more of a threat to la raza than you are, patriot. Since under my plan, every us citizen of mexican descent will make their way in to the middle class, they will intermarry with people that are not of mexican descent, and 100 years from now being of mexican descent will be something that no one even thinks about.
So the white racists better hope i fail, and La Raza better hope i fail. Cause if things go my way, they are both going in to the dustbin of history
anon, why do you need an organization to support your views? I don't. I have the feeling that any I would recommend you would find a reason to call them racists anyway.
What is wrong with the majority citizens in this country wanting to retain this nation's language, culture and heritage? You never answered that. It is wise to not allow too many from one culture or lingual group in here as it would change our country's demographics.
It doesn't matter whether or not our immigration policies of the past could be considered racist. What counts is what our policies are today and in no way are our immigration policies racist today. We don't need to prove to prove anything to the rest of the world. Since we take in 1.5 legal immigrants every year from all over the world, how can we appear to be racists? It would be discrimination to boot out all anglo illegals first. You are off your rocker on this one and that is something that dee would advocate. Is in any wonder that I suspect that you are her sock puppet? Illegals should be deported as detected no matter what race they are.
What do minority communities have to do with the issue of illegal immigration? Why should any minority group object to the enforcement of our immigration laws unless the minority himself is an illegal alien. The majority rules anyway. That is what democracy is all about.
You don't want any white immigrants who are racists in this country? I don't want ANY racists in our country. Why single out whites? These days there are just as many brown racists in this country as there are white ones. Times have changed.
Sorry, but I like the uniqueness of each race and culture. I don't want us to intermarry and breed to the point that we all look the same, speak the same language and all have the same culture throughout the world. The only way this can be acheived is to limit immigration in each country so that each country and it's citizenry retain their uniqueness.
Patriot,
your views are clear and well expressed.
With all due respect, I am not comfortable being part of an organization or a group led by a white person that calls for deportation.
It just doesn't feel comfortable to me.
I will be part of an organization and will donate to an organization that is led by a latino or african american that calls for deportation.
To me, deportation is very unpleasant and uncomfortable. I think that i speak for many americans that are in favor of deportation and yet want it done in a way that goes out of its way to not be racist and not appear racist.
To me this issue is just like slavery in the 1850's. It was pretty clear that slavery had to go, and if the process had been managed in a careful, negotiated way that respected all sides, i think slavery could have been abolished without a war.
What was needed then was a slow process of building bridges, building concensus, a process that would have led to gradual emancipation.
Instead, the hot heads on both sides got control and the results were pretty traumatic.
I see the same thing on this issue.
There are hot heads on both sides that want to provoke a race war. But no one group is responsible for this mess - the white employers are just as guilty as the undocumented folks that sneaked in to this country.
The history of America is replete with amnesties for illgal immigrants, so many people sneaking in had a reasonable hope / expectation that there would be another amnesty.
What i am trying to say is, deportation is coming. I think it will be better for our nation if the planning for the deportation includes all members of our society. I want to see US citizens of Mexican descent leading the deportation. I want to see african americans leading the deportation.
You know, there were plenty of american citizens of German descent who were sent to Germany to fight during world war one and two. People
were worried about their willingness to shoot Germans
They proved to be loyal to the US.
So what i am saying is, it is not at all far fetched to have latinos involed in the planning of the deportation - there are latinos that want to prove their loyalty to the us
The deportation needs to be humane - and i personally trust latinos and african americans to conduct it in a more humane manner.
Patriot, i know that there are thousands of immigration blogs out there - but i haven't yet found one in which i can talk to like minded people of all races and plan for a humane compassionate deportation.
But Patriot , remember this. I am a hell of a lot more likely to build a broad coalition than you are.
i think my views will appeal to the inherent sense of fair play that most americans have
And by the way, I am pretty sure Dee would prefer if all the people in favor of deportation were knuckleheaded white supremacists.
I would like to build a space on the web and in the political discussion for people w my views
Patriot, one more thing.
In my mind, any organization led by white people that calls for deportation of brown people is going to look racist to me.
I am looking for african americans and latinos with the courage to call for deportation and the credibility to lead
I am *not* impressed with the front groups set up by FAIR
However, i am OPTIMISTIC that some legitimate african american and latino leaders will rise up and lead groups in favor of deportation.
part of the reason i am posting here is i am hoping that some of them read this and have the courage to step forward.
I would bet that as of today, a latino leader that has privately decided he is in favor of deportation feels scared to come out of the closet!
Pat and Anon,
An interesting discussion.
As you know I do not favor the Mass Deporation of 12M people and their children and I do not support the SAVE Act.
I would prefer some way to establish legal status for the 12M here, whether it be a path to citizenship or a Guest Worker program.
However, I am open to discussion on "out of the box" recommendations. Anon, your suggestions are definitely out of the box and would like to see you elaborate on ways your plans would be implemented.
OK -
well the first thing i would do is harness the power of the trial lawyers.
I would want to try this out in one state first, before rolling it out nationwide.
I would pass a law making it a civil offense to hire an undocumented worker.
Trial lawyers could sue the employers of the undocumented for $50,000 per undocumented worker per year.
The money collected would go one third to the lawyer and two thirds to the undocumented workers that worked there, with the money being held in trust and paid to them over time while they were back in their home country.
This would provide an economic incentive for the undocumented to go back to their home country, with that incentive paid by the employers.
Also - it would take immigration enforcement out of the hands of our incompetent government and put it in to the hands of lawyers whose natural greed would lead them to be aggressive.
I don't favor doing anything that radical all at once - i right now favor many experiments in many different states.
Anon,
I do favor experimentation or trials on a state by state basis.
What people are forgetting is, it took us over 100 years to get to this point. In order to resolve this issue, it will take a little time and out of the box thinking.
I don´t agree with all of your recommedations, however I do think we should give some of a chance and doing it on a state by state basis would be better than trying to shove mass deportation down everyone´s throat immediately or within 4 years.
anon, try, "You don't speak for me". A latina that is against illegal immigration. Al Garza, a latino is an exec with the MM organization. I still take offense at your remarks about whites in regard to the illegal immigration issue. You are not being fair. Just because it is mostly whites (and we are the majority in this country anyway) that oppose illegal immigration, you are making it a racist issue for them.
Just how would you deport illegals humanely other than giving them some monetary compensation of which I think is ridiculous? I wasn't aware that the deportations we do now are not humane and you know they are not.
If we deport ALL illegals how can we possibly be accused of racism?
The racists or hotheads as you call them, do not and will not control the outcome of solving our illegal immigration problem. It will be decided utlimately by congress with the input of the majority of Americans who are not racists.
Anon,
Just so you know, "You don´t speak for me" was formed by the ANTI group FAIR, founded by John Tanton. It does not have open membership. The Communications Director is Ira Mehlman, John Tanton´s right hand man. I tried to join but they never even responded to my emails. It is just a front organization.
The latina who said "you don't speak for me, is real". She is opposed to illegal immigration and your sock puppet wanted to be refered to a site where a minority or minority group opposes illegal immigration. So I supplied it. Let him/her be the judge for themself if they are not your sock puppet.
Patriot
i appreciate your pointing me to latinos that are for deportation. I'd like to get to know the full list and then decide for myself which ones i will respect and which ones i will not.
I also welcome Dee's comments - i can hear her comments and not be swayed
Let's put aside you don't speak for me for a moment.
i just googled al garza and saw that the minuteman has a hispanic coalition.
I will reproduce their press release in a follow on post
if i read it correctly, Garza has had family members that have served in wars for the US.
Garza also talks in one interview about the anger he felt when discriminated against by white anglos
I want to hear more about Garza and the minuteman hispanic coalition
the optimist in me says that perhaps they can draw more hispanics and minorities in to the minutemen and perhaps make them an instrument of humane deportation
the pessimist in me says that they are just tokens, and that the minutemen will be a force for cruelty.
i am still gathering facts - i want to express no opinion at this time.
but i definitely want to learn more.
Let me be blunt - i am in favor of deportation, and i want hispanic us citizens to play a large part in leading the deportation, since i think it will be done more humanely if hispanics are involved.
I am not stupid, i know that this point of view will earn me no respect from the hardcore antis and no respect from la raza.
I hold this view because it is what rings true to me.
I want to learn a lot more about Garza and about others like him
NATIONAL HISPANIC LEADER CALLS FOR HISPANIC COMMUNITY TO OPPOSE AMNESTY LEGISLATION
RULE OF LAW AND BORDER SECURITY WILL IMPROVE THE CITIZENSHIP PROCESS FOR HISPANIC IMMIGRANTS
PHOENIX, AZ— Al Garza, National Executive Director of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC) calls upon members of the Hispanic American community to join him in opposing the amnesty bill scheduled for debate in the U.S. Senate beginning next Monday, May 14, 2007. Mr. Garza has spent the last few years building a coalition of Hispanic Americans throughout the nation and within MCDC who share a concern for border security and enforcement of immigration laws, and who are committed to educating the Hispanic community on these vital national issues.
“As Hispanic Americans, we find it repulsive and insulting that our government would promote any form of amnesty for overtly illegal conduct, while American citizens continue to be held accountable under the same laws. We are all equal before the law in America, and our laws should be enforced on illegal entrants to our territory,” states Al Garza, National Executive Director of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. “We will continue to work within the Hispanic American community to foster an understanding for the need for border security and strict enforcement of the law for all.”
Mr. Garza and the Minutemen urge citizens to immediately contact the White House and their U.S. Senators in order to demand that their representatives in Washington, DC oppose the bill under consideration that forces amnesty forward into law. In addition, voters should remind Members of Congress to enforce the funding of a security fence on our nation’s borders that received passage in both the U.S. House and the Senate, and President Bush signed into law last year.
The Minutemen’s Hispanic Coalition is led by:
Al Garza, Arizona
Rosana Polito, Illinois
Olivia Garza, Texas
Tony Dolz, California
The Minutemen, unlike the U.S. Government, have already been implementing a plan for border security that includes an effective material barrier – by volunteering their time, energy and personal funds in order to build highly effective demonstration security fencing on private ranch land, expensed through private donations obtained from thousands of citizens nationally. Minuteman volunteers have taken steps to build this fence along the border utilizing state of the art technology with the fiber optic mesh produced by FOMGuard, USA, also currently in use on U.S. military installations, the DMZ in Korea, the West Bank in Israel.
The Minuteman Fence was recently featured in National Geographic magazine.
The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC) is a peaceful, law-abiding and citizen-led initiative organized to stand watch at our borders and in our neighborhoods, report illegal activities to the proper authorities, and aid in the construction of border fencing on private lands using private donations. Additionally, MCDC seeks to urge local and federal officials to enforce our immigration laws in order to keep our families and country safe. MCDC conducts border watch operations that assist the activities of the U.S. Border Patrol, reports employers of illegal aliens, and advocates to keeps tax dollars from being used for illegal alien benefits.
Ok -
according to the following quote - back in May 2006 the minutemen had 800 hispanic members.
I am not claiming that i believe that number, but i want to hear others chime in. Dee, do you believe that number?
This info on Garza is very interesting - I would like to see a survey of people whose grandparents were born in mexico but whose parents were born in the us and then they were born in the us - i'd like to see a survey of these people and ask them if they basically agree with Garza or not.
Actually, Dee, in the spirit of free inquiry, what percentage of the people whose grandparents were born in mexico who then moved to the USA agree with garza?
I want to explore this issue more.
I mean, I have put all my cards on the table, I am in favor of deportation but i want it partially led by hispanics so that it is done humanely and doesn't stink of racism. So i am VERY concerned with how popular Garza is with long established Americans with mexican ancestors
Ten percent of the Minutemen's 8,000 members are Hispanic, according to Al Garza. If you remember Al Garza is the former Texas president of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. He is now the group's second-in-command, to one of the nation's most prominent Hispanic anti-immigration activists. Garza is featured in a Houston Chronicle story about Hispanic Minutemen and is quoted as saying:
"This has nothing to do with race," said Garza, who was born in Raymondville in South Texas. "Anyone that has any racial agenda is not wanted in our group."
anon, google Ted Hayes. He is a Black American opposed to illegal immigration too.
Anon,
No. I do not believe those numbers. The MMs are famous for exaggerations and outright lies. Once famous example is the MM Fence (as I previously reported).
I view their sites frequently. I view their demonstrations. It is always the same 5 or 6. I think a few of the MM leaders are married to hispanic women.
They do not have a large number of minorities in their ranks.
If they do, they should publish the list. I would do the research on it myself.
As I said, I attempted to join "You don´t speak for me." That was when I first started studying the issues. I did not have a blog yet and I had not formed a solid opinion. I had joined a discussion board and several other members talked about that group. I just wanted to get more information. I sent several emails to their Communications Manager as per the directions. I received nothing back, no acknowledgement, nothing.
I believe it is purely a front organization and may have only a few token members.
I could say the same of NCLR. You can not join, you can only donate monies to them. There is no way to become a voting member to be able to elect members of the board, i.e. Pres. V.Pres. Treas., etc.
I believe it is purely a front organization and may have only a few token members, that get paid by our own Government and idiots that donate to them.
Ok -
as i said, i am i favor of a compassionate deportation.
I know this will make me very unpopular with the white racists and also unpopular with la raza.
I did not choose this position in order to make everyone angry but it is something that i have come to after a lot of thought.
I want hispanics leading the deportation - i think that hispanics that are clearly loyal to the usa have credibility in my mind
dee are there any hispanic antis that have a real following?
The highest profile leader that comes close to any type of plan you are thinking about, the one with tons of credibility, is Gov Richardson.
He has not come out as either ANTI or PRO.
He has called for secure borders and Employer Sanctions. During the last debate, he had some interesting ideas about working with Mexico who is our ally to establish smooth repatriation and jobs for their workers in Mexico.
BTW, the Hispanic MMs mentioned are often called traitors by Hispanics. It has more to do with the actions of the MMs in relation to the demonstrations (fights) at the day labor sites and confrontations at various rallies than anything else.
Dee
I am in favor of a compassionate deportation.
I might be able to get comfortable with 75% of the undocumented leaving the country, or perhaps with 50% leaving the country.
Any solution that doesn't lead to 50% or more leaving the country just won't have my support.
Any leader that i choose to follow and embrace has to somehow indicate that he or she is willing to see a solution in which 50% or more leave the country.
Richardson has, to my knowledge, not said that he wants to see exits from the USA of this number of the undocumented.
As far as i can tell, his statements indicate that he wants something less than 50% to leave
What i am saying Dee is if someone on this board can show me quotes from Richardson that indicate he is comfortable with perhaps 50% or more leaving the USA then i will look carefully at him.
If not, then i humbly ask the people on this blog to show me some latinos that talk about numbers greater than 50%
Dee, i of course know that you personally are not comfortable with the 50% number. I don't choose in in order to provoke you or to soothe you - i just speak for myself.
I want a respected group of leaders from a variety of races, including hispanics, at the table planning the deportation. I am looking for the hispanics that are in favor of deportation who might be open to getting behind my plan
Ok Anon. You have been a very good commenter and I will help you.
Congressman Ciro Rodriguez
http://www.rodriguez.house.gov/
was a signer on the SAVE Act.
Actually I wrote him a letter complaining about it. He hasn´t answered me. I don´t how responsive he is. He may be open to some of your ideas.
I will also check on some links regarding Richardson´s latest views on Immigration. I will let you know.
email me if you have direct info, ok Anon: dee_perezscott@yahoo.com
Here are Richardsons views on Immigration:
Richardson Immigration
Richardson has ALL my views so he is NOT a match for you Anon:
Secure the Border by Hiring and Training Enough Patrol Guards to Cover the Entire Border
We must more than double the number of guards, and provide them with the best surveillance technology available.
Establish a Reasonable Path to Legalization for Many of Those Who are Already Here
This is not amnesty, but is a tough but fair opportunity for legalization and the possibility of citizenship. Most of the illegal workers in the country are hard-working, law abiding people simply pursuing the American Dream. Those who pass a background check, learn English, pay back taxes and fines for being here illegally get the opportunity for legal status. Those that don't must leave.
Crack Down on Immigration Fraud and Illegal Workers
Eliminate One of the Prime Attractions for Illegal Workers
We must crack down on employers who knowingly hire undocumented immigrants and enforce the laws already on the books. After establishing a national ID system, employers will have no excuses.
Work in Partnership with the Mexican Government and Nations Throughout Latin America
Increase the Number of Legal Immigrants Allowed Into the US Each Year (a little more left than me here)
I Was the First Governor in the Nation to Send National Guard Troops to the Border
Richardson is an ethnocentric Hispanic which many if not most Hispanics are. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. Good luck with finding many Hispanic leaders or citizens that won't call any Hispanic who puts America first rather than these illegals, a traitor to "la raza".
This whole conversation is getting ridiculous. Anon, if you truly want most of these illegals deported as most Americans do, you shouldn't be concerned about what racial group these Americans are comprised of and most Americans are not basing their views on racism. The fact that whites are the majority in this country would automatically make them the majority objecting to illegal immigration.
We should only be concerned about ridding ourselves of illegal aliens in this country, securing our borders and returning to a nation of laws and no name calling or negative labeling by the anarchists should stop us from doing the right thing for our country.
Anon,
Pat is right in a way.
Most ANTIs are only concerned with MASS Deportation by ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
They don´t care about the abuse in the Detention Centers.
They don´t care about the abuses by the MMs. (many cases of violence at the border and at the day labor sites)
All they advocate is Mass Deportation by any means necessary.
Period!
Patriot,
First of all, my views will win me few friends among the hard core antis. Obviously they will win me few friends among la raza.
I am sorry you are frustrated with me but i have to be true to my beliefs. You and La Raza can both choose to ignore me, but you know what - it is possible that my view "compassionate deportation" may be the one that resonates with most americans - the swing voters.
I am personally uncomfortable with white anglos leading a deportation of millions of hispanics. The fact is, in my mind it will call up images of the SS stormtroopers gathering up people in Europe. Is that unfair to the people doing the rounding up? Well perhaps. But the fact is that a certain percentage of the people that join the border patrol do it because they like having power to humiliate their fellow man. Most are good folks, but there are a few bad apples in there.
I think that it would calm all of america (and certainly calm me) to see a hispanic in charge of the deportation.
I want America to take a stab at deportation in a compassionate way and i trust it to LOOK more compassionate if it is led by a hispanic and to actually BE more compassionate if it is led by a hispanic
Remember that Ghandi got the british out of India with very little violence. If you, Patriot, see the undocumented as invaders, look at other instances in history when invaders left without violence.
A coalition of working people that comes together for a humane deportation has a chance of solving this problem.
When Dee says that a massive fast deportation of 12 million people can't be done, she is wrong. There have been many deportations that size in the past hundred years that have happened - it is just that they have resulted in violence and bloodshed. So deportation of 12 million is possible.
At the same time, a careful compassionate deportation of perhaps 50% or 75% of the undocumented now here will not make the extremists on either side happy.
If I was a politician discussing this in public i would fear terrible attacks from extremists on both sides.
But this is what i believe in.
Thanks for showing me the info on Ciro Rodriguez. I think that i need to study up on him - he could be a person who represents my views
Let me say one other thing- the people responsible for this problem are the people who have hired the undocumented since 1986. if everyone in the US took it as their responsibility to not hire an undocumented person, we wouldn't have 12 million or more living here.
Every person who hired an undocumented should feel guilty today
Well Anon,
I am glad you joined us. You certainly have a different agenda then both pro or anti.
I will tell you what. If SAVE passes, I volunteer to be on the committee that provides support for the implementation.
We need to do something about the Detention Centers, the time it takes to come to trial and the speed of repatriation.
There you go again, dee. Falsely accusing Americans of not caring about abuse of any human. Disgusting that you drop to those tactics. Where is your proof of that? A bunch of unproven hearsay should be taken at face value?
There is no violence or abuse being done by most of the MM and even those who have had the finger pointed at them have not been convicted of anything. Why do you do this, dee. It is totally disgusting when you do this.
I am still waiting for the proof you promised about Rund being a MM. But even if he had been a one time, the MM organization does not condone arson. You are so desperate,dee. Must suck to be you.
Anon, what is compassionate deportation? Why don't you just say "give them money to go home" and knock off the compassionate crap unless you mean somethihg other than a monetary reward for them.
You yourself admit that most that want the illegals deported are racists, so what are you worried about them for? It is the majority that counts. I don't understand you point of view at all and I smell a rat that you keep referring to whites as being racists. Something is wrong with this picture, anon.
Who is advocating violence to remove these illegals from our country? Not me nor most Americans. So what are you talking about?
I note how you just want to blame the employers for this mess we are in. Sorry bud but the blame is three-fold, the employers, our govenrment AND THE ILLEGALS. But just like dee, you don't want to blame the illegals at all. They know what they are doing is wrong. No personal responsiblity here?
correction... meant to say you yourself admit that most who are opposed to illegal immigration are NOT racists.
dee, there is probably a lot of prisoner abuse that goes on in our regular prisons. Why aren't you championing a cause for them?
poor pat,
you are in severe denial.
read this unbiased article.
it is all there.
shame you choose to believe what you want to believe.
Poor, poor dee, I don't deny or acknowledge anything without proof. Unlike you that is willing to dig up dirt or believe dirt that inconveniences illegal aliens. You say I believe what I want to believe? Aren't you doing the same? I haven't said what I believe, I have only said I want proof.
Just because an article is deemed unbiased still doesn't equate to facts. It is just hearsay till proven.
That is so funny Pat.
You believe every bogus, uncorroborated story your ANTI websites claim about illegal immigrants, everything from drunk driving to gangs, all with no proof, no trial, nothing.
You are simply unbelievable!
When did I say that, dee? Stop putting words in my mouth. You do this all the time. I only believe what is proven, nothing else, whether it be from an anti site or a pro site.
You are the unbelievable one that has to make up lies about others.
I am an independent thinker and I use a lot of common sense to form my views also. You have no common sense whatsover.
Reread the last post Pat. As I said you constantly believe the assumptions and claims by the ANTI sites re the impact the illegal immigrants have on our economy, crimes, etc. However none of this is proven.
From Strayhorne´s report and many leading economists, the illegal immigrants are a net positive revenue impact. We see the loss of economy, revenue when they leave an area.
Yet you continue on and on with unproven statements about their impacts. That is what my previous post was about.
Please discontinue your name calling. We only have civil conversation on this site. Stick to a legitimate, logical debate format.
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