Saturday, May 29, 2010

Interesting Immigration Discussion Today

Tonight, my husband and I went to the casino. My husband plays poker and I play slots. As I was playing slots, a nice man sat next to me and we started high fiving each other as each of us won. For those who go to a casino, this is typical behavior among enthusiasts.

We started chatting about our families. He said he was from Texas, like I was, so I decided to ask him about the immigration debate. I figured he was an ANTI and I was right. I asked him if he was familiar with sb1070 and if he supported it. He said he supported it. I said, "How can you support a bill that racially profiles American Latinos like me." He responded, "Well we have to do something to curb illegal immigration and protect the border." I agreed with him. I said, "CIR addresses that. We need the Feds to pass CIR. I agree with secure borders and employer sanctions, but we cannot have a bill that targets American Latinos like me." I proceeded to tell him that my family lived in TX for hundreds of years. Countless Latino families were like mine and this bill racially profiles and targets all of us. He said, "Well we have to do something to control our borders." I asked, "Why is it ok to target me and my family and not yours." He couldn't answer. He mentioned, "We have so many coming over..." I repeated, "My family has been here much longer than yours. I am a good American. So is my family. I too support secure borders, but I do not condone racial profiling. Why do you?" I could tell he was getting uncomfortable, but he proceeded to tell me that he could trace his family back to the Mayflower. Then I said, "But not in Texas. My family was here before yours arrived." He didn't know what to say. I told him I realized he was a loyal American like I was, but it was important for him to understand the truth about these racial profiling bills and the impact on families like mine. We ended the discussion with him promising to look up my blog and to study the issue.

I really don't think he will and he was just placating me, but it will be interesting to see if he does. Regardless, it was an interesting discussion and I think he gained new insights. I think more of us need to engage each other and have similar discussions about Immigration and Racial issue. That is the only way we will hear each other and gain each other's perspective.


pcorn54 said...

Interestingly enough Dee, I have similar conversations with people almost daily, but usually about the opposition to Mexican trucks into this country, which the opponents have used all the tired arguments about illegals, drugs yada yada.

I listen to overnight trucking talk radio practically every night where the nativists call in slamming the idea of Mexican trucks, immigration reform, and putting all of societal problems on Mexicans and Mexico.

What is interesting, some of these same people, when confronted face to face in the truck stops, have an entirely different attitude.

Vicente Duque said...

Dear Dee :

You are studying the "Antis" and profiling the "Antis" ...

This is my contribution to your deep cogitations and lucubrations :


Video of an Old White Guy, Nice People, he unloads his soul and discharges his frustrations against Liberals, Democrats, and evil Boycotters of Arizona

These can be good People, Nice People, "Good Christians", they vote Republican and by doing so approve and lift very dangerous Racists that want Ethnic Cleansing in America.

The guy is evidently suffering, because he says "I feel better" after his rant .... He is unloading his soul .........

This is the material of which the Republican Party is made nowadays, this guy would love John McCain and Sarah Palin and her "Two Americas" : The "Bad America" that is Younger and Darker, and the "Good America" that is Older and Whiter like in "The Great Gatsby" and "Elmer Gantry", see the movies or read the novels. Blacks, Browns and Coloreds do not appear in those books or movies.

That is why it is so necessary to mobilize new voters, young voters, young people, even if they are "the lower races" .... Otherwise the decay and decline of America would be accelerated and assured.

While America is heavily and totally defeated in Iraq and Afghanistan these Old White People and other Younger Bigots do not have a better idea than to install Segregation and Apartheid in Arizona.

At a time when the U. S. Army is desperate for new recruits of any color !

What is important is not what the Arizona New Laws say ( sheer Hypocrisy ) but what they intend.

"So who put up the money for the march ??"

Let's say that it is Business ( With a Big B ) --- And so what ???

thepenrev — May 29, 2010 — so who put up the money for this march.........well far left.....please tell us....

Thousands March in Arizona Against Immigration Law

Vicente Duque

Anonymous said...

pcorn54 said...
What is interesting, some of these same people, when confronted face to face in the truck stops, have an entirely different attitude.

It's embarrising to be racist when you're face to face with someone.

ultima said...

dee wrote, "Well we have to do something to curb illegal immigration and protect the border." I agreed with him. I said, "CIR addresses that."

Actually it doesn't in any effective way. What is prescribed is more of the same: more staffing, more infrastructure neither of which or the combination has been able to solve the problem and secure our borders.

Isn't it time to try something new, like internal enforcement with the deportation of significant numbers of illegals? We can't rely on anything that RSM wants to put in this bill because ultimately it depends on Obama's willingness to direct his Administration to enforce all of the new provisions. Otherwise, he will cherry pick and enforce only the provisions he supports. If he doesn't enforce the current laws, it would be sucker bet to assume he will enforce any new ones.

ultima said...

Dee wrote,"Why is it ok to target me and my family and not yours."
No one is targeting your family. You don't even live in Arizona!

Hell, let's target everyone than maybe you'll be happy. Of course, that would be an incredible waste of resources, wouldn't it?

The example I gave from Virgina, I think, showed that racial profiling did not take place under a similar law. But I guess you would never accept that as fact.

ultima said...

Dee wrote, "Countless Latino families were like mine and this bill racially profiles and targets all of us."

As Lee Ioccaca used to say, "If you can find a better car, buy it!"

If you have a better idea, one that will really work effectively to remove large numbers of illegal aliens, let's hear it. More of what we are currently doing will not solve the problem. We have to do something different. I am in favor of punishing employers of illegals bult they can't be identified without E-verify or frequent roundups or sweesps of work locations. First we have to get words "knowlingly hire" out of the federal and state statutes. It should just read "hire". Every employer must be held accountable for any illegal aliens in his employ. E-verify will help him to sort them out so he has no excuse and we should allow him none.

That might help quite a bit but it is no guarantee because employers can still game the system by just not submitting the info on all of their employers to E-verify.

The problem is so pervasive that a single approach has little chance of success. There need to be sanctions against employers and employees. You won't be doing an employee any favor if you allow him to stay in this country but not hold a job. And regardless of what we do to employers, without internal enforcement the illegals will keep coming because they figure they can get a job somewhere and the cornucopeia of welfare benefits for their families and the 14th amendment will still constitute a huge magnet.

These are the realities that the writers of the Hispanic CIR bill have not faced up to. I wonder why?

ultima said...

Pcorn I wonder how quickly you would change your mind if it was shown that a dirty bomb was smuggled into the U.S. in a Mexican truck? Are you saying this couldn't be done? I think it would be easy. With enough money one could buy into a Mexican trucking company and then install the shielded bomb way behind all the other cargo of tacos and bananas, somewhere out in the Sonoran desert using your own people. If Mexico can't solve its drug lord problem, how can we expect them or our border patrol to deal with a bomb secreted in a Mexican truck scheduled for delivery at a Muslim enterprise in the U.S. The FBI has shown that it typically comes up a day late and a dollar short so we can depend on it to catch this illicit cargo. As long as things go smoothly with no major terrorist incidents we can expect truckers and others to be complacent about the possibilities.

ultima said...

pcorn wrote,"What is interesting, some of these same people, when confronted face to face in the truck stops, have an entirely different attitude." I am not surprised that they would be wary of discussing this issue with a stranger especially anywhere near the border.

Dee said...

Actually, we have never enacted CIR. It did not pass in 2006. Times are certainly different than Reagan's 80's.

We should do what makes sense. Mass Deportation will never work. That's the size of the state of NY and would wreck havoc on the nation, particularly the latino community.

Pass CIR. Allow them to get in line and apply for citizenship. Let's bond together as a nation.

Superdestroyer said...

Amnesty does not solve the immigraiton problem. Open borders, unlimited immigration creates a huge number of problems.

the real question is why is the left in the U.S. so intent in turning the U.S. into Mexico. Where are whites suppose to immigrate after most of the U.S. become like South-Central L.A. or El Paso?

CIR is amnesty and will accelerate illegal immigration in the future and will forever change the U.S. into a third world country.

Why are so many Hispanics who were born in the U.S. working so hard to turn the U.S. into a third world country. Do they all hate whites so much that they are willing to lower their standard of living just to piss off the Gringos?

ultima said...

I agree with Dee to this extent.

1.We should not deport all illegal aliens.
2.Times are different than they were in 1986 under Reagan.
3.We should bond together as a nation.

Where I disagree is as follows:

1.The borders cannot be secured with the measures prescribed din the RSM framework.
2.RSM only provides more of the same measures that have already been demonstrated to be ineffective.
3.Border security is the most important element of any immigration reform so let's implement everything related to border security in RSM and see if it works.
4.Results must be measured not on the basis of resource input but on the objective count of illegals apprehended at the border and internally. A confidential survey of all border patrol and ICE agents would also provide a first hand, albeit subjective, assessment of progress.
5.Results have to be dramatic in order for anyone to consider the borders secure -- like a 75% reduction in the number of apprehensions.
6.Legal immigraton quotas should be reduced by the number of illegals estimated to have eluded the Border Patrol and ICE.
7.The 14th needs to be reinterpreted because times have changed since Reagan was in office. He spoke of 1.3 million to be given amnesty. Now its 12 million.
8.If folks agree English is our national language, why don't they support a bill to formalize English as the official language of the United States.
9.Since the current immigration laws are not being enforced, why should anyone believe a new reform bill would be fully enforced in all its details.
10. The words employers who "knowingly hire" illegals should be changed to just "hire" illegal aiens so that they are held accountable for the work status of everyone they hire.
11.We have no obligation to give precedence to adult relatives of citizens. They must apply just like those without citizen relatives and get in the same line. Only the spouses and minor children of citizens should be allowed to apply under family reunification rules.
12.Instead of making immigration easier, we should be making sure all countries and embassies know what our quotas are and what our limits are.
13.No action should be taken regarding mass legalization until the 75% reduction goal has been achieved and sustained. If it cannot be achieved that will prove that we must repatriate large number of illegals but not all.

Mike said...

An additional solution would be to give all undocumented workers within the US a yearly renewable work permit. The arrangement for Turks in Germany provides such an example. That would provide what the majority of the undocumented workers want: money to send home to families that desperately need it.

Dee said...

I like your idea. Let's bring them all out of the shadows. Let's run a background check. Then let's let them go into some worker status. It can be a renewable permit.

That would stop the suppression sweeps. We would know who is here. They can then get in line and apply for citizenship status or if they prefer to go back to their country of origin every year for a few months or forever, they can do that too.

I think part of the reason they don't go home is because they are afraid they cannot come back; the trip is far to trecherous and life threatening.

We can secure our borders and know who is coming in. No more sneaking in.

We can hire workers where needed. We are desperately going to need help in cleaning the Gulf Oil spill.

This seems very logical to me.

More than anything, it will stop the suppression sweeps and the demonization of all latinos, particularly along the southern border states.

ultima said...

From some points of view, I like the one year work permit idea, after being registered and cleared with a background check. However, I'm not sure how this helps to secure the border which is my top priority. Does everyone who sneaks across the border get a work permit just by registering? Do we limit the issuance of work permits to those who have been here at least ten years and have become creditable members of their communities? 5 years? 1 year? How does the availability of work permits reduce the incentive to violate the border? Can the work permit be made forgery-proof? Should the work permit be biometric and machine readable so that holder passes freely through the ports of entry? Should the number of times a person can transit the border each year be limited to avoid passing the permit around to others? How do we sort out the illegals who are holding jobs citizens will do if given the chance? How should the number of work permits issued relate to the U.S. unemployment rate by sector? If there is a total unemployment rate of 15% among computer programmers, should we issue any work permits in that sector? If there is a total unemployment rate of 15% among construction workers, should any work permits be issued in that sector? If an illegal registers but is denied a work permit for whatever reason, should he or she be deported? If an employer cannot prove that he has advertised for citizen workers to no avail, should work permits be denied until he can? What priority do citizens have over illegals when it comes to employment they will accept?

ultima said...

Citizenship status is quite another matter. The assumption is these would remain temporary foreign workers who would return to their homelands permanently at some point. The RSM reform framework suggests that any pathway to citizenship would take as long as ten years. I have stated that true fluency in English should be a requirement for citizenship. Moreover, it is questionable whether those who have entered our country illegally should ever be allowed a pathway to citizenship. Their primary interest has always been to work without threat of deportation. I think it is observable in some locations that they are not interested in social integration and linguistic and cultural assimilation. I would be concerned about extending an opportunity for citizenship to those who are still closer to their homelands in act and deed than they are to America.

Anonymous said...

There is no way that we should give those here illegally a worker's permit until our own unemployment numbers drop below 5%. It isn't just white collar workers that are becoming unemployed.

One other thing is if one really wants to be fair, the remaining open jobs (if any) should be offered to those waiting in their countries to come here legally first. Now who can disagree with that? Certainly not a fair minded person would.

Dee said...

Here is what you are missing.
There are millions of jobs Americans won't due.

Let me give you examples:

1. AgJobs: To understand, you are going to have to ask YOURSELF the question. Are you going to go to Michigan to pick cherries or cucumbers this summer? There are plenty of jobs available? But not even the out of work autoworkers are applying. Why don't YOU goup and apply. I know you would immediately be hired. Let us know what happens when you go up and apply. I'll be waiting for your response.

2. Meat Packers: the same can be said for the meatpacking industry. Pilgrims Pride and Armour and Agriprocessors are BEGGING for workers. Let me warn you. It is a filthy, dirty, strenuous job. Have you tried ripping the guts out of chickens or cows for 8 - 10 hours a day? Yuch!! BUT they are fact begging for workers. Why don't YOU go apply. Email me back once you do. I will quickly report on it. Send pictures too.

3. Oil Spill Workers; I hear there are numerous job opportunities to clean up the oil spill along the Gulf Coast. While it is true the weather is being bad at 100+ degrees in the swampy swampy swamps of the bayou. Let us know how you are doing once you apply and are hired. They tell us they are desperate for workers. Write us. Take pictures. I will be happy to post them.

Page Hits